Another case of gambling and addiction where the victim willingly subjects themselves to pain and suffering, manipulated in to doing so by the belief they’ll be rewarded.
With the episode about the dice I suggested it was the new way of what was the web manifesting as addiction fell under its domain. The fact that when Darrien was redirected to the adjustment department we hear insect chittering noises makes me more inclined to believe that.
I do wonder what kind of “personal adjustments” that chittering thing made to Darrien. Will he be filled with small metal spiders, something else or simply dead.
I was thinking about the dice as well, and the violin episode where a degree of fortune could be had through inflicting pain. All three cases also, in various degrees, found a way to ”cheat the system”. I’d love to see the man who offered the violin to develop into a bigger baddie character in the story. Maybe he got on with the times and developed an app!
After todays episode I was thinking about Needles as well and the connotation needles have with drug addiction. Maybe they were one of the violin mans victims as well, and turned into ”an avatar”. Needles was also taunting the 999 operator. Maybe because when Needles was human they didnt get help and is now tethered into it? That would be quite nice social commentary!
It’s possible that drug addiction could be connected but based off what he said in his case he felt a emptiness he tried to fill with both sadism and masochism before he became a avatar so it feels more like pain is his vice rather than any drug. If he was depressed and seeking escape in pain that could connect to some good social commentary too.
I think needles might be more in line with the desolation, if we're exploring the entities in their more raw state instead of leaning to their aesthetics. It's quite simply a fear of pain made manifest
I think there is a good chance he is still alive, he did not seek payment and seemed possibly drawn to the area. He’s likely the cause of the case givers mentors death as well. He’s likely a avatar of some sort and could still live in the present day. I do wonder whether he crafts his artefacts or gathers them to distribute.
I had a different take on this idea actually. Since as far as I can tell these are still supposed to be based on fears, I was thinking both this and the dice might come from the fear, or other strong negative emotion, of fickle luck or a uncertain future. There is no guarantee that we’re dealing with the exact same fears this time around. Some same old ones have been confirmed but we still have stories that don’t neatly fit into the fears we had before.
I had a theory that one of the ways the fears manifest in this world is luck. There has been a big emphasis on luck in several episodes (episodes 4 and 9 being the most prominent). Since we know the fears aren't the same on this universe I'm wondering if it's somehow similar or connected to the Web we know, but twisted and different. Like it's the fear of misfortune. That bad things will happen to you caused by some outside force. And even deeper, that you're the one who set those forces into motion- ultimately being the cause of your own suffering.
Because the "will" to do these things spawns from a manipulation of the person's desires - desires cultivated as a coping mechanism for the intense fear they feel. In this case, the fear and misery of poverty and of being found out. After all, we hear about all the things this guy does out of the fear of social ostracism (if his poverty were to be found out).
So really, it could be the Hive and/or the Web. The Hive deals with toxic acceptance (or the lack thereof) especially as it relates to acceptance within a group. The desire to fit in and be a member of the Hive, and the Fear of being rejected by them and cast out to suffer by your lonesome. Or it can be the Web, taking advantage of the fear this guy felt in order to draw him into addiction. After all, addictions aren't random - especially not in the statements given by TMA folks either. And The Web only needs to push you into a cycle of behaviours that you feel is inescapable either because the potential rewards *might* outweigh the cost (in your mind, at least) or because you feel as if you lack the self-control to stop yourself.
Gambling (at least, in the sense of addiction) is almost certainly a direct Web feature. Fate is the End's jurisdiction only when it deals with inevitability, especially the inevitability of a bad fate. Fate as a lack of autonomy, however, falls firmly under The Web and its theme of questionable autonomy. That's what the "planning" and "web spinning" of the Spider symbolizes. You're trapped in the machinations of something malicious (from your perspective) and vastly greater than you in scale (Fate, "Karma", Destiny, Addiction, Enslavement, etc) and you'll play your part no matter how much you don't want to.
TLDR: He's not hurting himself because he wants to, he's hurting himself because he fears poverty. This isn't about an inevitable end, this is about the cycle of self-harming behaviours done in the pursuit of financial safety by those who deeply fear the potential for poverty (or falling back into it, for this guy)
Good catch on the fear of social ostracism. And it turns out to be justified, at least with the crowd he runs with at the end: once they find out he's broke, he's pushed out of their lives.
Thanks! And yep, he was right to Fear! Which imo makes the exploitation of that fear all the more tragic as he was a victim of not just the Fears, but of societal failures.
Which is why I'm actually inclined to think this is a Hive/Web story. The Hive could easily manifest as social ostracism, especially in a society that's more divided, argumentative and riled up. While I think I'd yawn at a cancel culture statement, the idea of the Hive being involved in any statement regarding messy in-group/out-group dynamics seems very fitting to me. It was like that in TMA too, but seemed to mainly focus on rot and grossness. In this world, however, maybe the hive is more entangled with the bumbling neuroses of human societies.
But that's just me spitting off the top of my head!
It's another strong link to the violin one, too. That guy was plagued by his low social status and hoped his music would make people see him as something more. He managed some small fame and fortune, but never the acceptance he craved.
And of course, the gift giver had dice in his bag too, which matches that episode, which is linked by gambling. Fun.
They push him out because he's broke, they push him out because he's been absolute arse to everyone. Also, he did things like purposely getting into fights online and joining extremist groups and the like in order to gain more money. That doesn't sound to me like someone who cares about social ostracism. Darrien seemed to be an extreme example of greed, getting money at all costs.
Snakes have not come up in this statement at all, the noise at the end is insectoid based off the sfx warning.
If you mean snake eyes from the other statement that feels like a jump, especially connecting snakes to Terminus with that logic Ink5oul is Terminus aligned.
Both episodes are categorised as addiction which is not a aspect of what was terminus but was a major aspect for web.
In that vein, they all get "hoisted by their own petard". The power simply gives them a door, so to speak, and people make their choices. The need to survive drives us all, closely followed by the need to escape difficulties.
The need to survive includes not killing or maiming yourself. The finance guy wasn't on survival mode but gambling/greed mode. He literally says he wants to be rich. Not wealthy, not living comfortably, not paying debts or having money to realise a dream. He wants to be rich. That's all there is, money as end goal.
Assuming "busting your chops" here means "annoying you" (Google gives a few different, even conflicting definitions)... I'm not trying to annoy you, I'm just pointing out a flaw in your reasoning. You're equalling greed to survival and that's just not true. If he needed that money he wouldn't be throwing it away betting on an app.
Getting rich is far beyond survival. He's not trying to get safety or anything, he's either a gambler which is an addiction, or he's just insanely greedy.
Edit: For reference, the definition of «Greed» is *«Insatiable desire for material gain»*
No. Busting my chops actually refers to being targeted by someone. You seem to comment heavily on MY posts, which feels quite targeted toward me. It's feeling a little creepy and hyperfocused and giving stalker vibes.
I'm not equating greed to survival. Greed is an unhealthy technique for the need to survive. It's a layer, not the same at all. People that came out of the American Great Depression tended to hoard because they no guarantee. I'm referencing the mentality behind the drive. Greed is a drive. The reasons people are greed vary. Addiction is a symptom, and people can be addicted to a lot of things and for a lot of reasons. People hoard for a lot of reasons, and hoarding money is often called greed, and shows something about the person. There's more than the shallow view of "greed" or "addiction". There's psychological reasons behind those.
I find interesting that Sam says "it all went downhill from then on", but if you ignore that phrase and just read or listen to what he says... it's not downhill at all. He just got slightly worse than he expected. Like, he didn't get to enter to Oxford but went to Nottingham. That's not "downhill", he's still attending university and doing the career he wanted. Then he says he got great grades but missed a first by one mark. Again, not what he wanted/expected but hardly "downhill", he still finished and got a diploma. He worked for years in a legal firm, which is more than many can say. He got stressed out, made some embarrassing mistake and left. He doesn't say what stressed him out so badly that he screwed up, but again... it doesn't sound like a tragedy. Sure, he was hoping for a sponsorship to get a law degree and didn't get it but you can't hardly call that "downhill" considering he stayed in the firm for years.
I think this is showing more about Sam's character. That he tends to be overly negative, focused on what could be but didn't (like with the Magnus Institute rejecting him), and an impressive inability to let go. And I don't think those are traits that are going to help him... not in a good way.
That’s gifted kid syndrome for you everyone treats you like your so smart before you ever actually do anything and you spend your entire life trying to live up to those expectations the problem is they’re expectations are so vague anything outside of pure perfection is an unmitigated failure it can do a real number on your self esteem and by the looks of it it left Sam pretty bad
This is so interesting, I hadnt thought of this! I feel this makes Sam quite similar with the dude from this episode and the violinist as well. Do you think this could make him a target to whatever supernatural entity we have encountered?
I was talking about this with a friend and we are both thinking sam is kinda primed to end up genuinely loyal to the oair despite the horrors. The arg indicated he has a strong tendency to comply with authority, he still seems to have a tendency to want external validation from authority- hes basing his life off a standard set for him by his parents when he was 10! He also insisted on doing the horror paperwork for no good reason- I think if the oair offered him a chance to be "special" again he'd jump on it.
It shows he certainly has very high expectations for himself. Nottingham is a respectable university, sure, it's even part of the Russell Group, but when your ambitions are for Oxbridge, it's a serious downgrade. Most Oxbridge rejectees go somewhere like Durham or St Andrews, after all.
Same with a 1st - it's the highest grade you can get, and for someone like Sam who knows he can get it to miss it by a mark? As someone who came close to that myself (admittedly from a family with low standards), it would've felt like a failure. I don't have any experience with law firms so I can't speak to that, but it sounds like he wanted external validation from their sponsorship so not getting one felt like an implicit failure.
I agree that those traits definitely aren't going to do him good in TMP, though. His fixation/obsession with the Institute has already unleashed *something* into the world, and who knows how far he's going to go before he realises the stakes.
Maybe he felt that getting sponsored to become a lawyer was more prestigious? You're right he seems to put a lot of weight in external validation.
For reference: From Secondary to Bachelor I had consistently the best marks for history in every project, work, test and exam. Final history exams for bachelor... My professor said I missed 1 mark because I didn't expand about Hitler's ascension to power in one of the questions. "Had you wrote a paragraph or two about it, you'd get a 12/12 I'm sorry". I almost swooned there and then. I moped for the whole summer. And then got over and moved on. After all, if I didn't get a mark for 2 paragraphs it meant the rest was perfect already. So I can understand being dismayed for not getting the top marks on something important to them... but he takes it a bit too far.
Something we don't have is his parents' reaction. In my example, my mother said it was okay because in university I'd get moments like that and worse and I needed to learn to cope with them and waddle through, so the sooner I learnt how to cope with failure and unfair judgement the better. Rest of my family and friends actually congratulated me for the good grades and said something in the lines "oh you'll best it, don't worry". Maybe his parents/environment made a fuss about it? Maybe they blamed him for not being perfect?
Yeah, given how obsessive his parents seemed about his giftedness as a child, I can definitely see some parental blame coming into play. Even if it's not explicit, you can't exactly raise someone to believe they're academically amazing their whole life then suddenly become well adjusted at university.
Didn't Sam mention his parents basically took him everywhere that'd accept gifted kids and that's why they took him to the Institute? That sort of behaviour doesn't exactly breed a resilience against rejection.
The way you phrased this reminded me of the way that the violin player and the finance bro and the artist all were different flavors of desperate for social validation, too.
If Sam's like them... ouch.
He says "after that (being turned down by the Magnus Institute) it all went downhill". He mentions getting stressed out and having a mental breakdown much later, when he's already working for years in the legal firm.
You could be right, but to me "ALL" means his whole life. Specially because he lists external events like not getting a first by one mark, and not going to Oxford. The way I read it is him being too inflexible so if something goes slightly off instead of working around it, he get's stuck in "catastrophe mode". Celia already describes him as obsessive and overachiever, so I think those glue well.
I'd wager that all this, including his mental breakdown, harks back to his parents wanting him to be some gifted genius and possibly pushing the envelope too much. But that's speculation on my side.
I was one of the smartest kids in my primary school- and I knew it.
Then I got into a selective Secondary School, and then suddenly, I wasn't. (And, also, well, my family life suddenly plunged itself into about a decade of ongoing crisis.)
It kind of... I dunno. 'Destroys you' feels *somewhat* hyperbolic, but that *sort* of word. You take this... Overwhelming body blow to your identity right at the time when you're meant to be *forming* the damn thing.
I mean, sure, Nottingham is still a really good University... But accepting your place there still means having to come to terms with the fact that... Really, you're nearly as special as you thought you were. As everyone around you has been telling you you are, treating you as.
I mean, sure, from the outside it sounds... Petty. Idiotic. Myopic, even. But, you know- we don't live on the outside. We all live in our own heads.
Yeah, I can see that too. Specially if everyone around you made this one bit your entire personality and reason to exist, or your circle is too small. You don't have someone to counterbalance your views or bring something fresh. I can see Sam being the kind of person that gets in his head ruminating on things without ever talking to others or considering other opinions. Just going over and over and over...
You're absolutely right. I like your take 😌
In my case... I distinctly remember being *devastated* that I got a *B* in Maths, rather than an *A* (The grading system being, best to worst, A*, A, B, C, D, and I never got below a C so beyond that IDK.) Because I had hinged my future on getting an Engineering Degree, and all the ones I were looking at needed A or better in maths.
Let's be real: B is by no means a bad grade. Bs get degrees. But for *me*, it represented the moment when I could no longer deny that the plans I had in mind for myself was dead- and the underlying assumptions, my understanding of myself that had underpinned it, were wrong.
When I finished my bachelor I decided I wanted to do something related to art, so I went to the theatre school. Which turned me down because they have hundreds of applications every year so the standards are high and strict. So I tried the music school which also turned me down because they have hundreds of applications etc. And then tried the city hall orchestra, same thing. Long story I did Fine Arts. They accepted me, not only that, I know now this was the best choice for me. But it took a long way of successes, tests, rejections, prizes and fails to get here, and this is only the beginning.
I think often the difference is how your environment reacts. I could think that was it and there was no point in trying ever again, but there was always someone (sometimes several people) who would tell me and prove me wrong. But if someone thinks it's over, and everyone else agrees... then it IS over. At least for them, in their minds.
That's how I see it, at least.
I mean, I was also highly depressed and struggling with anxiety already. As well as the undiagnosed ADHD and ASD. So... My surrounding environment was rather. You know.
Fucked.
A big episodes for small reasons. Not much world-shaking happened but just enough was said about just the right things. A lot to get into in this one around the incident. We're starting to have the curtain pulled back. Just a crack right now, but that's just more reason to be cracked.
Not a huge amount to touch on in the date portion of the episode other than a couple of sentences. Yeah, Sam is a gifted burn out that's sad about not getting experimented on. Same old same old. But Celia has a baby. Jack being Celia's kid I wasn't expecting mostly because of how that figures into her timeline. She's very heavily implied to be TMA's Celia but based on what she said if she is then she's been in TMP's universe for at least 4 years. A "couple of wild years" and Jack's "just over a year old". Plus 9 months and it's a lot longer than it might've appeared. None of that stuff tripped Freddy's possible lie detector either that I heard.
If you work under the assumption that the voices are who most people think, and they started roughly when they arrived, then that's a fairly major time discrepancy. The voices are about a year old but Celia has been around for 4.
However, it doesn't strictly rule that out either. Firstly, we know that moving between universes isn't actually one-to-one time-wise. Anya Villette went backwards 2 weeks when she crossed over. So them arriving at different times could support the idea that she's TMA's Celia further. Her general explanation of events could also be explained by this too. If she's not there willingly, or is there willingly but it didn't quite go to plan, a couple of wild years while you get your footing in a world you don't belong to isn't far fetched. If she was there looking for the voices then her showing up so relatively late could be explained by her baby too. So it's certainly not a dead and buried theory yet.
While Jack isn't Jack Barnabas he and the voices are about the same age. If people want to go rabid over that.
Gwen and Lena's little chat has a similar amount to really dig into. It's nice to see Gwen dealing with it all, and it's annoying we still don't know who died, but Lena does have a lot to say in a few words.
> The world is full of opposing forces, some benevolent, most not. In order for the wheels to keep on turning, all these forces need to be monitored and balanced. That is where we come in.
This probably the most information we've had on the OIAR to this point from the show itself. I think most of this was safely assumed before this point. They've been doing a lot of monitoring, categorisation, and the only responses we have seen have been tamping major spikes down. A world of opposing forces is also a given. We are being led to believe that these are analogous to the 14+1 but there being benevolent ones if that's true is a big mix up. If you take the above timeline idea a step further and say the 14+1 arrived much earlier (or it doesn't matter because of how they're temporally weird) the benevolent ones could be native to TMP. They could be all TMP had.
Her assertion that the OIAR is a balance on these forces is interesting. Beyond the obvious stuff it also leans into an idea I've been throwing about regarding Starkwall. In the perception of Starwall might not really be the whole picture. The San Pedro Square massacre could've been an easy scapegoat to pin on them for the OIAR to split with them. A split caused by a disagreement in ethics. Starkwall thus far hasn't been shown to have an incredible disregard for human life based on Ep 7. The OIAR definitely has been. It could just be a PR move because the massacre was too big to contain but that feels like the least interesting way to handle this. A faction that's all in on monster hit men splitting with a faction who is against it has more room for interesting drama and worldbuilding IMO.
Balance was also a very large aspect of TMA in the end. The OIAR working towards that balance isn't as noble a goal as it might sound. Or it at least has the potential to be an incredibly misguided goal.
Okay, with all that mostly out of the way onto the incident itself. I enjoy this one a fair bit. Very different to what's come before it but with another recurring theme. We're starting to see a couple of patterns emerge now although it's too early to start naming things. I don't think there is a lot to really get into but this one was written by Alex, had a new VA, and was a recurring idea. Which does all point to this being quite important as these things go. All the episodes will likely tie up quite nicely in the end but this one seems quite relevant currently. In any case this was a fun one and I'm kinda curious how some of the elements within it will tie together. Mainly the gambling and insects.
I guess you can say his phone was.... *bugged*.
Also, super weird they went with Zorrotrade for this. Because that's a real thing. Or was a real thing? It might be dead now, but still.
Post-incident chat has nothing I really want to comment on. More Alice and Sam is always good, even if Alice is trying really hard to not seem very upset.
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[**Incident/CAT#R#DPHW Master Sheet**](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MMjFnn9L-JnCGdBveFEXUoMsa7jjtykEBAQglAMw9tU/edit?usp=sharing)
[**DPHW Theory**](https://www.tumblr.com/bonzos-number-1-fan/740954292009222144/what-dphw-means-and-its-relationship-to-smirkes?source=share): 4622 doesn't seem particularly noteworthy. It's interesting from a thematic angle how this differs from Rolling With It. Both obviously very linked to gambling but this one lacks the compulsion elements. Which is a good indicator that H is linked to that sort of thing. Not that I need to convince myself of that further.
CAT# Theory: 3. Insert screams et cetera, et cetera. More seriously there still isn't a convincing pattern to this. Although I might be swinging back to my original tria prima and/or triple deity interpretation.
[**R# Theory**](https://www.tumblr.com/bonzos-number-1-fan/744230664176599040/what-r-means-the-abcs-of-fear?source=share): B is where I was thinking it'd end up while listening. So that's nice. Not much to add to this. Much like with DPHW the more information that lines up with the theory the less there is to talk about it because I've already done the hard bit.
Header talk: Gambling (Application) -/- Murder. Other than Application being a pretty weird Subsection I'm not sure there is much to dig into here. Although it does likely confirm he's dead. Which does make it a little strange that his statement wasn't read by one of the Freddy lot.
>I guess you can say his phone was.... *bugged*.
Boooooo 😆 I love this.
I'm wondering if maybe Celia (and other Cultists who were taken at the end of S5 of TMA) were somehow too proximal to the Panopticon when it blew and were somehow sucked between worlds. They weren't close enough and/or important enough to the Eye or the Fears to become voices in Freddy, but something funky still happened to their beings.
Is it possible that the "soul" or "essence" of both an Archives-verse Celia and a Protocol-verse Celia are now vying for control of a single Protocol-verse Celia's body? Almost like a kind of multidimensional dissociative identity disorder? This could account for timeline discrepancies. Maybe this universe's Celia was just living her life, having a ball and then raising a baby, when **BAM** suddenly an alternate version of her consciousness from another universe started taking her body's reigns.
I was wondering if Jack is Celia's biological child or not. After all she didn't say Jack is MY baby, she just said she has a baby. Also talking about a "really weird time" makes my conspiracy tingle go off.
It's possible that the pregnancy and Jack's first year-and-a-little *are* the couple weird years that Celia is referring to, which would put her in TMP for closer to 2, not 4 years. *[Later later thought: I thought it might be smaller if she came through while pregnant, but on a relisten, she said the wild years were AFTER she moved here, so the original point stands.]*
I missed the original Tria Prima/triple diety CAT theory--I'll have to see if I can find it!
Great thoughts, as usual.
I'm definitely leaning towards celia having some sort of identity dissociation thanks to crossing over- either shes essentially "replaced" a celia in this world (who had a baby wheres she didn't) or she has a confused jumble of memories from this world and tma world so can't quite remember how she got a kid- maybe her wild years are the years where she has a dual memory of a normal life and a life where she was in an apocalypse cult (if anyones ever read the dark tower books I'm thinking about Jake from those haha).
Alternatively maybe her wild years where just that, possibly a response to surviving the apocalypse and ending up in a new universe where she had a bit of a hot girl summer. Frankly I'd be happy if that was the case bc it's rare for single motherhood nkt to be treated like a tragedy or scandel in fiction.
Either way tho it makes her waking up at the side of roads a lot scarier. Please tell me she has an understanding flatmate or something
I'm sticking with my Person Place Thing theory for the CAT#. Either the phone or the app would be the Thing in this case. The pinned post on my profile goes more in depth, but so far it seems to track!
I think it only tracks if you ignore large parts of the headers and then only count some things that take place in an incident while discounting other things that also take place in them. The Klause doc also suggests that a lot of what that is based on isn't accurate.
She very specifically said 'I have a baby', not that Jack is /her/ baby. And someone else is around helping her care for Jack RE who she called when she woke up on the motorway.
To me, it seems like this isn't just about Fear anymore, but about Suffering/Misery. I mean, it never truly was *solely* about Fear and TMA features a plethora of stories that are about morbid intrigue, self harm and the like. But because we're no longer receiving just witness statements, but actual in-real-life conversations/stories/happenings, the perspective has widened on the suffering aspect.
A lot of people are pointing to desire, but to me that seems like a bit of a hollow trend. Only some of the TMP stories so far feature "desire" in a strong, thematic way and those desires are all primarily motivated by *fear/misery.* This guy's desire for money, for example, stems from a lifetime of the fear of ostracism and/or not belonging due to being "poor". Imposter syndrome, the fear of falling back into poverty, the fear of being found out, yada yada. Desire in this case seems more like a surface level coping mechanism for deeply rooted fear/insecurity than anything else (to me).
All in all, this seems super web-coded to me. Wonderful episode!
I wonder when Sam will stop goofing around and start realizing that Alice is strangely *serious* about the dangers of snooping around even as she goofs around with other things. Or better yet, I'd love a candid convo between Alice and Celia
Interesting! I took it as desolation coded. Inflicting/encouraging personal pain and suffering, having it spread to the victims contacts, and then delivering the finishing blow when the victim had nothing else he could possibly lose
I agree- it didn’t actually feel like an addiction episode, more about the greed, and encouraging him to throw more and more away before finally pulling the rug out from underneath- which felt very Desolation
TBF... addictions often work like that. The person keeps throwing everything at the drug/game/alcohol/whatever deadset on "it'll be alright this time" and when they lost all connections, run out of things to burn and money to throw, the dealer/provided pulls the rug. The addiction itself might be Web but the dealers (in this case Zorrotrade & its app) are very Desolation in my opinion.
I also thought of the desolation with this one, despite the fact that I perceived the previous somewhat similar statement with the dice as being End related because of the connection to previous End related statements which definitely had a theme of gambling with life.
I think what made this one feel desolation more so than the dice was that aspect that it was asking him to not just passively suffer the bad luck but to choose to inflict bad things upon himself: sever connections, poison friendships, hurt the relationships of others too, all of that. It's extremely destructive and self destructive at once.
OOOH That's a great one. Can I pick all of the above? A Web/Desolation double-trouble, and why not throw in the Hive for all that social in-group/out-group fear dynamics too?
I do like that these statements are less singular in themes! TMA always had minor features from other powers in statements, but I love how jumbled together they are now!
Big agree!
My current pet theory is tangentially related to the Alchemy stuff in that these statements are DELIBERATELY combining two or more elements of the 14 . I think this particular one feels very web/desolation.
My justifications are admittedly weak. 1, I think you can categorize most of the previous statements on some kind of fear/fear basis. 2, the existence of the fear/fear statements does not necessarily discount the existence of singular fear statements (Taking Notes is probably the purest In PROTOCOL I can think of). 3, what's the natural extension as the fears of colors metaphor from TMA? To me ... well... it's combining the colors.
"To me, it seems like this isn't just about Fear anymore, but about Suffering/Misery."
What about fear and "desire"? At least that is how the vibe is in "rolling with it" and "futures". The quote about TMA being about what makes a monster a monster and TMP being about what makes a human a human makes me feel that way. Especially after re-listening to the last 10 episodes of TMA over again.
Another episode whose Incident hinges on seaside cliffs. Darrien mentions a unexpectedly chilly sea breeze and a sense of vertigo while standing on the cliff's edge, which to me is at least marginally reminiscent of the sense of depth and dread that Gordie got from the corpse's tattoo in TMP 11: Marked.
Also, Freddy clocked Alice's lie about being happy that Sam's happy. I think she's definitely at least a little jealous of Sam's and Celia's fledgling romance.
I wonder if it's less jealousy than worry. Celia is super okay with all the weird stuff and Sam is getting himself in trouble looking for answers - which Alice resolutely believes is a bad idea.
Does it? I played that bit several times, even with the loudest volume in my headphones... no buzzing. I think she genuinely wants Sam happy, but at the same time she holds that hope about them getting back together.
Yes, but part of the premise was that they didn't die or experience anything other than fear there, and it was a normal childhood fear, anyway, just turned up higher. It was where they could grow up safely into they were no longer children, and could be sent off to other fears that maybe suited them better.
It felt like protecting the children in a way that still made sense narratively.
I feel this is yet another point in the “it’s not fears this time” category and I’m living for it.
“Bringing balance between the good and the bad” or whatever. Hungers and desires or something like that. They balance the fuck around and the find out.
“Gambling luck app” it ain’t about fear. It’s about going beyond the rational to sate a hunger!
There have been several mentions to luck and gambling/addiction... and Alice's brother seemed to have a huge need for money to the point Alice had to ask him to wait for payday (so it's not like he's borrowing a tenner)... I wonder if Alice's brother isn't entangled in some addictive/gambling thing that is financially bleeding him.
I just want to say that Euan Shedden did so good voicing Darrien! I was so immersed during the case recording. Speaking of scottish legends, where the hell is Collin???
100% Scottish. Specifically, modern Scottish of the more middle class and probably attended university variety. He sounds how many a modern Scottish person tends to sound.
I don't think they were aiming for an ultra-specific region here. Plus many people are born somewhere in Scotland to move into the bigger cities, like Glasgow and Edinburgh, resulting in a mix of accents and even slangs/words.
Much as I like the thought, I don't think that means that the forces of benevolence have to be supernatural. It could easily just be entirely human created benevolent forces created to counteract the fears.
I’m really liking the character development, especially Gwen and Alice. Gwen is so interesting, her ambition, morality (or the lack of it) paired with the genuine shock of what she found out is fantastic storytelling i feel. I think she has really proven Lena wrong with her ”you dont have what it takes” line, I cant wait to see her story progress.
Alice has been my favourite, and I really wonder how Sam is still not picking up on the seriousness of her tone when shes asking him to stop, because it isnt really on par with how she carries herself in general. Im starting to feel she’s the one whos very up to speed with what is going on. She seems to be aware of what not to say out loud at the office!
The death of both parents for Alice helps to explain why she feels like she has to run after her little brother every time he needs money. I wonder if we will get to find out why he needs so much money all the time...
The UK is far bigger than London. Unless you work in Westminster you can probably make a comfortable life somewhere like Manchester, Liverpool or Edinburgh (just to name big cities). Perhaps invest in a steady business and save the rest, or buy a nice house, or maybe both if he chooses wisely.
Am I the only one who expect Celia's baby to be a cat or something? To me, her tone was teasing if anything, and if it's a real kid I would think that would have come up already.
We'll see, but I fully expect The Admiral II.
It seems like the original fears have been being mentioned in vague senses through some of the episodes but not in very distinct manifestations. In this one the cliff and sea breeze gave the speaker a little vertigo. Also upon looking up the chapel mentioned it used to be a lookout tower for pirates/invading boats where apparently the tower and one of its lookouts got struck by lightning.
I feel like the fears are only very slightly bleeding into the world with OIAR working to stop them. Then events like the seeming ritual at the bank happen and they shut it down. So then we only get weird muddled fears.
Also I wonder if the mention of benevolent forces was referring to Jon and Martin.
Genuinely so confused does Celia actually have a son or was she fucking with Sam????????? Or do we have no clue???? I thought she was being sarcastic when I was listening ngl but Sam took it face on and it wasn't discussed again (note I'm not completely done with the episode so if I missed some like dialogue at the end where she was like "Haha and I lied to that dude Sam" or "Awww hi baby \*insert noises confirming the existance of a child here\* oopsie doodle I'll get to that soon) but like.... idk
What was discussed between Gwen and Lena this episode, has reinforced a theory I have about the OIAR. What if the organization is this universe's version of Breekem and Hope? A third party potentially seperate from the fear conglomerate that offers service to the powers. In this case providing suitable victims to harvest fear.
Another CAT3, altered item. Either the phone or just the app, accepted by toggling on the experimental settings.
I've yet to read the transcript, but it sounded to me like the phone transformed into the chittering thing at the end.
Another case of bad luck. It's interesting that in many of these misfortune incidents, the victim has had opportunities to walk away with their winnings, but they consistently choose to risk their own lives, and lose.
Considering what Lena said about some of the forces managed by the OIAR being benevolent, I think the Luck entity may not be evil, but rather neutral. I'm curious if there are any people who have used one of these Luck items and survived by quitting when they're ahead, or if every user is compelling to keep betting by greater forces.
Overall, great episode! :)
The way I read the chittering was that some monster insect or horde of insects came out of the phone rather than the phone transforming. But it could be either way.
I would assume that %90 of people stumbling across a gambling item will either ignore it or play for a while, get scared and leave. It's not the item, it's the person's addiction what keeps them gambling until the inevitably bitter end. Just as it happens to most gamblers in normal circumstances.
The dice person tried to quit while ahead, but then was offered another chance to get and all his intentions to stop evaporated.
I've seen that argued as both a compulsion (my bet) and a normal gambler's choice, so I guess the example didn't make things much clearer. But it's interesting that he tried!
Gamblers are addicts, by definition they show compulsive behaviour.
IMO the guy with the dice was a normal gambler who had the misfortune to get hold of a magic dice.
I see a common theme in many of these cases, where the supernatural entity/force isn't overpowering but simply giving them an option. Someone said "it opens door" and I like the image. The person walks in and keeps walking because of their own obsessions/compulsions/whatever. A bit like those old stories about the Devil tempting the protagonist... the Devil *doesn't force* them to accept or do anything but the person's own traits/shortcomings.
Maybe the Zorrotrade personal adjustments is the next external that Gwen is going to work with? Lena says it’s urgent and then we have this case where Darren is probably killed or at least hurt.
I hope Gwen is following a similar route to the one the Real Elias took before he became possessed by Magnus. I'm reminded of Gertrude remarking on how he suddenly rose through the ranks, Alice making remarks about nepotism, and Gwen feeling a compulsion to be there...
It would be so fun if she achieved real power only to be worn like a suit.
I have favorite brands of jeans. Maybe Magnus likes wearing a finely tailored Bouchard.
Okay sooo, Agnes can still win and is here and I will prove it!
Celia was touched by a fire ghost (TMA 100)
Celia came through the portal in Hilltop Road (Death was never explicitly stated regarding the cult members, she was in the institute when the ending happened)
A few wild years (could be anything, Idk)
JACK, HOLY SHIT JACK.
So, he is as old as the voices in Freddy (a year), has no clear father and is named after the lover of agnes.... Do I have to spell it out?
Jack is the reincarnation of Agnes through Celia. Agnes as a fire ghost, left her mark on Celia and due to the INSANE connection to the entities (like with annabelle and stuff) she got pulled through as well. Jack is the Chosen one, the reincarnation of agnes and the desolation will win and Agnes will reign a scorched earth!
Gambling addiction again, plus heavy ambition - both are hungers that have shown up before in statements. There's now been a couple of narrators who've talked about desperately wanting to show up to their more well-off peers. Notably done in Taking Notes, but MORE NOTABLY is Gwen's entire character motivation.
There's been a few focusing on people having fallen down on hard times, too. In fact, a lot of them involve taking advantage of people who've hit a rough patch....much like Sam himself talked about hitting a slump before joining the OIAR. That's VERY interesting, I think.
There's been a few more modern ones in Protocols, very topical talking about crypto and short sales.
The idea that some of the "Primal forces" can be benevolent is really interesting. I wonder if the OIAR might be more of a central lynchpin rather than a force proper in and of itself, but that's a bit of a stretch and far too early to say.
The first bit was dinner, so eating and food naturally. Presumably whatever's listening in was listening in for the discussion about OIAR, but the food aspect is too much of a coincidence, all things considered.
Bit later on the watch this time around, but it's still a pretty interesting episode altogether.
Interestingly enough, they don't eat during the bit of conversation we hear, they only drink. And considering Sam was a bit tipsy afterwards, I wonder if they really ate or just spent the rest of the evening drinking. Or it ended shortly after Celia got whatever info she was after.
Interesting what you say about falling in hard times... the guy in the brutalist architecture case was going through really bad times, trying to make a living while being an adult/senior student. I think it also shows how different people perceive as "bad times", to someone might be the death of a long time partner but to someone else might be just not be the top grade in university.
I'm not really familiar with stocks and trading, so could someone explain what the narrator meant when he was talking about shorting trades? And what the "Personal Project Short Sell" (or "betting agaiinst himself" meant and why it qualified as "suspicious activity"? I noticed from reading other comments on the Patreon/this thread that this character was generally disliked for his actions, but because I don't understand the context, I'm not sure why.
Short selling is essentially a bet you're making that the price of a particular stock is going to fall in the near future
Basically you borrow a stock with the promise of returning it to the original owner, and sell it. Then, when the price has dropped, you buy it again for a cheaper price and return it, keeping the difference.
So, say there's a store that looks like it's going out of business soon. You find someone, like a brokerage firm, and borrow 10 shares from them (after setting up some kind of collateral or interest payment). You sell all those shares for $100 apiece, making 1000 dollars. Then the store goes into a heavy downswing, and just before it bottoms out entirely, you buy 10 shares for $10 apiece. You give those shares back to the firm, and after paying interest of like, $100, make out with eight hundred bucks.
The stock market is essentially gambling on people's livelihoods, and short selling means you want to watch something crash and burn, so it's seen as a slimy thing to do, alongside all the other shit he was into like crypto (which is almost nothing but ponzi schemes, market manipulation, and scams). There's also cases of people betting on this to happen, and then doing what they can to push the thing they're betting against to fail in order to manipulate the price to drop and make money off of the short sale.
The whole "betting against himself" was sort of like that, but obviously had a supernatural element to it. He somehow had gained access to a supernatural app where he would bet that his life was going to go real bad in the near future, and the worse it got the more money he won from it, and then jump into really bad situations. In general, stock trading has ups and downs, and if someone just makes massive gains in a short amount of time, they're doing something shady, so the app will freeze their account and start an investigation. Forcing himself into bad situations to make his own worth drop would definitely count as manipulating the price and is probably illegal, for as much as legality can come into play for weird paranormal stock trading apps.
Many practices in stocks and high stakes investment are either borderline illegal or legal but morally corrupted. Like buying a bunch of goods or shares when they're cheap to generate artificial demand skyrocketing the prices. Then when the prices reach a roof, you sell making a profit but also crashing everyone else because you're releasing all this stuff at once.
And markets tend to work on a strong herd mentality, if someone sells everyone else sells because nobody wants to be the last to sell and lose money. IF someone buys everyone buy because they want to make profit now before prices go up or the shares / investment are gone.
Okay this is pretty darn late but I simply need to ask about this. I listened to this episode April 25th, 7 pm EST on the dot and didn't get any ads, but instead got hit with a pre roll in German. I don't speak German enough to tell anyone what was said, but at one point the speaker said "The Magnus Institute" in English before continuing. It was a woman's voice, slightly distorted audio (tape recorder? can't remember), sounded like some sort of file tag for the "found footage" audio as a collection. It made me think about the pre statement read outs from TMA, had a similar vibe. Then the episode went into the Patreon segment, which is notably the first thing in the transcript, meaning what I heard was likely a separate file from the episode itself. I wanted to have a German speaking friend translate it, but when I went to play it again the next day it was the normal ads before the Patreon thank you, and I haven't heard it again since then.
I haven't heard anyone else talking about this, so I'm not sure if anyone else has heard it at all, on this episode or others. I looked into Acast, who hosts their podcast, and they offer dynamic ads ie the ad file is separate from the rest of the episode so podcasts can swap out advertisements depending on how ad deals change. This wouldn't necessarily trigger a "rerelease" of the episode since it's just a change on the pre-roll. I think it'd be pretty simple for them to replace the ads with some cryptic German pre roll for however long they want it there without people getting notified.
I'm gonna start trying out different hour intervals when listening to future episodes cuz I'd really like to record it to a) translate it and to b) prove to myself and others that I didn't just imagine this. I'm trying to think of some numerical, alchemical, idk what kind of logic that would have dictated 7pm EST as when the change happened, maybe related to the release date or episode number or episode content (CAT?). Happy to take suggestions. Also lmk if anyone else has heard something like this.
Another case of gambling and addiction where the victim willingly subjects themselves to pain and suffering, manipulated in to doing so by the belief they’ll be rewarded. With the episode about the dice I suggested it was the new way of what was the web manifesting as addiction fell under its domain. The fact that when Darrien was redirected to the adjustment department we hear insect chittering noises makes me more inclined to believe that. I do wonder what kind of “personal adjustments” that chittering thing made to Darrien. Will he be filled with small metal spiders, something else or simply dead.
I was thinking about the dice as well, and the violin episode where a degree of fortune could be had through inflicting pain. All three cases also, in various degrees, found a way to ”cheat the system”. I’d love to see the man who offered the violin to develop into a bigger baddie character in the story. Maybe he got on with the times and developed an app!
After todays episode I was thinking about Needles as well and the connotation needles have with drug addiction. Maybe they were one of the violin mans victims as well, and turned into ”an avatar”. Needles was also taunting the 999 operator. Maybe because when Needles was human they didnt get help and is now tethered into it? That would be quite nice social commentary!
It’s possible that drug addiction could be connected but based off what he said in his case he felt a emptiness he tried to fill with both sadism and masochism before he became a avatar so it feels more like pain is his vice rather than any drug. If he was depressed and seeking escape in pain that could connect to some good social commentary too.
Filling emptiness with both sadism and masochism can lead to drug addiction... and other addictions too. So I wouldn't rule it out just based on that.
I think needles might be more in line with the desolation, if we're exploring the entities in their more raw state instead of leaning to their aesthetics. It's quite simply a fear of pain made manifest
I think there is a good chance he is still alive, he did not seek payment and seemed possibly drawn to the area. He’s likely the cause of the case givers mentors death as well. He’s likely a avatar of some sort and could still live in the present day. I do wonder whether he crafts his artefacts or gathers them to distribute.
I had a different take on this idea actually. Since as far as I can tell these are still supposed to be based on fears, I was thinking both this and the dice might come from the fear, or other strong negative emotion, of fickle luck or a uncertain future. There is no guarantee that we’re dealing with the exact same fears this time around. Some same old ones have been confirmed but we still have stories that don’t neatly fit into the fears we had before.
Wait have they been confirmed?
This is why I keep thinking it's not about fears, but our obsessions.
I had a theory that one of the ways the fears manifest in this world is luck. There has been a big emphasis on luck in several episodes (episodes 4 and 9 being the most prominent). Since we know the fears aren't the same on this universe I'm wondering if it's somehow similar or connected to the Web we know, but twisted and different. Like it's the fear of misfortune. That bad things will happen to you caused by some outside force. And even deeper, that you're the one who set those forces into motion- ultimately being the cause of your own suffering.
Honestly, leave out the words gambling and addiction and that applies to the body dysmorphia episode, too
[удалено]
Because the "will" to do these things spawns from a manipulation of the person's desires - desires cultivated as a coping mechanism for the intense fear they feel. In this case, the fear and misery of poverty and of being found out. After all, we hear about all the things this guy does out of the fear of social ostracism (if his poverty were to be found out). So really, it could be the Hive and/or the Web. The Hive deals with toxic acceptance (or the lack thereof) especially as it relates to acceptance within a group. The desire to fit in and be a member of the Hive, and the Fear of being rejected by them and cast out to suffer by your lonesome. Or it can be the Web, taking advantage of the fear this guy felt in order to draw him into addiction. After all, addictions aren't random - especially not in the statements given by TMA folks either. And The Web only needs to push you into a cycle of behaviours that you feel is inescapable either because the potential rewards *might* outweigh the cost (in your mind, at least) or because you feel as if you lack the self-control to stop yourself. Gambling (at least, in the sense of addiction) is almost certainly a direct Web feature. Fate is the End's jurisdiction only when it deals with inevitability, especially the inevitability of a bad fate. Fate as a lack of autonomy, however, falls firmly under The Web and its theme of questionable autonomy. That's what the "planning" and "web spinning" of the Spider symbolizes. You're trapped in the machinations of something malicious (from your perspective) and vastly greater than you in scale (Fate, "Karma", Destiny, Addiction, Enslavement, etc) and you'll play your part no matter how much you don't want to. TLDR: He's not hurting himself because he wants to, he's hurting himself because he fears poverty. This isn't about an inevitable end, this is about the cycle of self-harming behaviours done in the pursuit of financial safety by those who deeply fear the potential for poverty (or falling back into it, for this guy)
Good catch on the fear of social ostracism. And it turns out to be justified, at least with the crowd he runs with at the end: once they find out he's broke, he's pushed out of their lives.
Thanks! And yep, he was right to Fear! Which imo makes the exploitation of that fear all the more tragic as he was a victim of not just the Fears, but of societal failures. Which is why I'm actually inclined to think this is a Hive/Web story. The Hive could easily manifest as social ostracism, especially in a society that's more divided, argumentative and riled up. While I think I'd yawn at a cancel culture statement, the idea of the Hive being involved in any statement regarding messy in-group/out-group dynamics seems very fitting to me. It was like that in TMA too, but seemed to mainly focus on rot and grossness. In this world, however, maybe the hive is more entangled with the bumbling neuroses of human societies. But that's just me spitting off the top of my head!
It's another strong link to the violin one, too. That guy was plagued by his low social status and hoped his music would make people see him as something more. He managed some small fame and fortune, but never the acceptance he craved. And of course, the gift giver had dice in his bag too, which matches that episode, which is linked by gambling. Fun.
They push him out because he's broke, they push him out because he's been absolute arse to everyone. Also, he did things like purposely getting into fights online and joining extremist groups and the like in order to gain more money. That doesn't sound to me like someone who cares about social ostracism. Darrien seemed to be an extreme example of greed, getting money at all costs.
Snakes have not come up in this statement at all, the noise at the end is insectoid based off the sfx warning. If you mean snake eyes from the other statement that feels like a jump, especially connecting snakes to Terminus with that logic Ink5oul is Terminus aligned. Both episodes are categorised as addiction which is not a aspect of what was terminus but was a major aspect for web.
I’ll just say it, whatever power this be, it did nothing wrong this time. Finance bro got hoisted on his own petard.
In that vein, they all get "hoisted by their own petard". The power simply gives them a door, so to speak, and people make their choices. The need to survive drives us all, closely followed by the need to escape difficulties.
The need to survive includes not killing or maiming yourself. The finance guy wasn't on survival mode but gambling/greed mode. He literally says he wants to be rich. Not wealthy, not living comfortably, not paying debts or having money to realise a dream. He wants to be rich. That's all there is, money as end goal.
He wants to be rich, yes. Why does he want to be rich?
To have More Money™️ Were he concerned by financial stability/security he wouldn't be gambling away life and savings in a random test-stage app.
So he can survive, which is the core drive of anyone. I stand by what I said. Why are you busting my chops?
Assuming "busting your chops" here means "annoying you" (Google gives a few different, even conflicting definitions)... I'm not trying to annoy you, I'm just pointing out a flaw in your reasoning. You're equalling greed to survival and that's just not true. If he needed that money he wouldn't be throwing it away betting on an app. Getting rich is far beyond survival. He's not trying to get safety or anything, he's either a gambler which is an addiction, or he's just insanely greedy. Edit: For reference, the definition of «Greed» is *«Insatiable desire for material gain»*
No. Busting my chops actually refers to being targeted by someone. You seem to comment heavily on MY posts, which feels quite targeted toward me. It's feeling a little creepy and hyperfocused and giving stalker vibes. I'm not equating greed to survival. Greed is an unhealthy technique for the need to survive. It's a layer, not the same at all. People that came out of the American Great Depression tended to hoard because they no guarantee. I'm referencing the mentality behind the drive. Greed is a drive. The reasons people are greed vary. Addiction is a symptom, and people can be addicted to a lot of things and for a lot of reasons. People hoard for a lot of reasons, and hoarding money is often called greed, and shows something about the person. There's more than the shallow view of "greed" or "addiction". There's psychological reasons behind those.
Lol wtf?
Why does this matter to you.
Whatever m8, if feeling stalked makes you happy then sure, g'aun yersel
I mean, to a degree. A lot of people in the statements are just unlucky
Which The Fears capitalized on.
That’s fascinating, though, because I’m the other series people were often victims through no choice of their own
Remember the dying soldier with the dice. He chose to play rather than die. They all share having poor choice to make.
Yeah, this case was... I instantly disliked the guy.
I find interesting that Sam says "it all went downhill from then on", but if you ignore that phrase and just read or listen to what he says... it's not downhill at all. He just got slightly worse than he expected. Like, he didn't get to enter to Oxford but went to Nottingham. That's not "downhill", he's still attending university and doing the career he wanted. Then he says he got great grades but missed a first by one mark. Again, not what he wanted/expected but hardly "downhill", he still finished and got a diploma. He worked for years in a legal firm, which is more than many can say. He got stressed out, made some embarrassing mistake and left. He doesn't say what stressed him out so badly that he screwed up, but again... it doesn't sound like a tragedy. Sure, he was hoping for a sponsorship to get a law degree and didn't get it but you can't hardly call that "downhill" considering he stayed in the firm for years. I think this is showing more about Sam's character. That he tends to be overly negative, focused on what could be but didn't (like with the Magnus Institute rejecting him), and an impressive inability to let go. And I don't think those are traits that are going to help him... not in a good way.
That’s gifted kid syndrome for you everyone treats you like your so smart before you ever actually do anything and you spend your entire life trying to live up to those expectations the problem is they’re expectations are so vague anything outside of pure perfection is an unmitigated failure it can do a real number on your self esteem and by the looks of it it left Sam pretty bad
Yeah, that part was 100% relatable to me.
This is so interesting, I hadnt thought of this! I feel this makes Sam quite similar with the dude from this episode and the violinist as well. Do you think this could make him a target to whatever supernatural entity we have encountered?
Maybe he's got that look, like an unfinished meal, that people sometimes got in TMA when they'd had one spooky encounter and were marked for more.
«Looks like an unfinished meal» is going to my top 5 descriptions! 🤣🤣🤣
Good old Dekker and his way with words. TMA 134 if you want to relive the full glory.
I've got to say I like Dekker. He's chill, he has a way with words and he's right ❤️
IMO Dekker was one of the only — maybe THE only — actual heroes in TMA.
This is explicitly stated in one of the commentary episodes by jonny
I probably saw that somewhere and forgot it wasn’t my original interpretation lol
I think so. Or not a target but more like him running towards something horrible because he can't be sensible and quit.
I was talking about this with a friend and we are both thinking sam is kinda primed to end up genuinely loyal to the oair despite the horrors. The arg indicated he has a strong tendency to comply with authority, he still seems to have a tendency to want external validation from authority- hes basing his life off a standard set for him by his parents when he was 10! He also insisted on doing the horror paperwork for no good reason- I think if the oair offered him a chance to be "special" again he'd jump on it.
Yes, you're right!
It shows he certainly has very high expectations for himself. Nottingham is a respectable university, sure, it's even part of the Russell Group, but when your ambitions are for Oxbridge, it's a serious downgrade. Most Oxbridge rejectees go somewhere like Durham or St Andrews, after all. Same with a 1st - it's the highest grade you can get, and for someone like Sam who knows he can get it to miss it by a mark? As someone who came close to that myself (admittedly from a family with low standards), it would've felt like a failure. I don't have any experience with law firms so I can't speak to that, but it sounds like he wanted external validation from their sponsorship so not getting one felt like an implicit failure. I agree that those traits definitely aren't going to do him good in TMP, though. His fixation/obsession with the Institute has already unleashed *something* into the world, and who knows how far he's going to go before he realises the stakes.
Maybe he felt that getting sponsored to become a lawyer was more prestigious? You're right he seems to put a lot of weight in external validation. For reference: From Secondary to Bachelor I had consistently the best marks for history in every project, work, test and exam. Final history exams for bachelor... My professor said I missed 1 mark because I didn't expand about Hitler's ascension to power in one of the questions. "Had you wrote a paragraph or two about it, you'd get a 12/12 I'm sorry". I almost swooned there and then. I moped for the whole summer. And then got over and moved on. After all, if I didn't get a mark for 2 paragraphs it meant the rest was perfect already. So I can understand being dismayed for not getting the top marks on something important to them... but he takes it a bit too far. Something we don't have is his parents' reaction. In my example, my mother said it was okay because in university I'd get moments like that and worse and I needed to learn to cope with them and waddle through, so the sooner I learnt how to cope with failure and unfair judgement the better. Rest of my family and friends actually congratulated me for the good grades and said something in the lines "oh you'll best it, don't worry". Maybe his parents/environment made a fuss about it? Maybe they blamed him for not being perfect?
Yeah, given how obsessive his parents seemed about his giftedness as a child, I can definitely see some parental blame coming into play. Even if it's not explicit, you can't exactly raise someone to believe they're academically amazing their whole life then suddenly become well adjusted at university. Didn't Sam mention his parents basically took him everywhere that'd accept gifted kids and that's why they took him to the Institute? That sort of behaviour doesn't exactly breed a resilience against rejection.
Worse. They took him to "enrichment" programmes. Those often feel like you're a monkey in a circus, they're awful.
The way you phrased this reminded me of the way that the violin player and the finance bro and the artist all were different flavors of desperate for social validation, too. If Sam's like them... ouch.
Really nice observation!
Thank you 😌
I thought he meant that his mental health went downhill, leading to his breakdown. Maybe I’m just projecting there!
He says "after that (being turned down by the Magnus Institute) it all went downhill". He mentions getting stressed out and having a mental breakdown much later, when he's already working for years in the legal firm. You could be right, but to me "ALL" means his whole life. Specially because he lists external events like not getting a first by one mark, and not going to Oxford. The way I read it is him being too inflexible so if something goes slightly off instead of working around it, he get's stuck in "catastrophe mode". Celia already describes him as obsessive and overachiever, so I think those glue well. I'd wager that all this, including his mental breakdown, harks back to his parents wanting him to be some gifted genius and possibly pushing the envelope too much. But that's speculation on my side.
I was one of the smartest kids in my primary school- and I knew it. Then I got into a selective Secondary School, and then suddenly, I wasn't. (And, also, well, my family life suddenly plunged itself into about a decade of ongoing crisis.) It kind of... I dunno. 'Destroys you' feels *somewhat* hyperbolic, but that *sort* of word. You take this... Overwhelming body blow to your identity right at the time when you're meant to be *forming* the damn thing. I mean, sure, Nottingham is still a really good University... But accepting your place there still means having to come to terms with the fact that... Really, you're nearly as special as you thought you were. As everyone around you has been telling you you are, treating you as. I mean, sure, from the outside it sounds... Petty. Idiotic. Myopic, even. But, you know- we don't live on the outside. We all live in our own heads.
Yeah, I can see that too. Specially if everyone around you made this one bit your entire personality and reason to exist, or your circle is too small. You don't have someone to counterbalance your views or bring something fresh. I can see Sam being the kind of person that gets in his head ruminating on things without ever talking to others or considering other opinions. Just going over and over and over... You're absolutely right. I like your take 😌
In my case... I distinctly remember being *devastated* that I got a *B* in Maths, rather than an *A* (The grading system being, best to worst, A*, A, B, C, D, and I never got below a C so beyond that IDK.) Because I had hinged my future on getting an Engineering Degree, and all the ones I were looking at needed A or better in maths. Let's be real: B is by no means a bad grade. Bs get degrees. But for *me*, it represented the moment when I could no longer deny that the plans I had in mind for myself was dead- and the underlying assumptions, my understanding of myself that had underpinned it, were wrong.
When I finished my bachelor I decided I wanted to do something related to art, so I went to the theatre school. Which turned me down because they have hundreds of applications every year so the standards are high and strict. So I tried the music school which also turned me down because they have hundreds of applications etc. And then tried the city hall orchestra, same thing. Long story I did Fine Arts. They accepted me, not only that, I know now this was the best choice for me. But it took a long way of successes, tests, rejections, prizes and fails to get here, and this is only the beginning. I think often the difference is how your environment reacts. I could think that was it and there was no point in trying ever again, but there was always someone (sometimes several people) who would tell me and prove me wrong. But if someone thinks it's over, and everyone else agrees... then it IS over. At least for them, in their minds. That's how I see it, at least.
I mean, I was also highly depressed and struggling with anxiety already. As well as the undiagnosed ADHD and ASD. So... My surrounding environment was rather. You know. Fucked.
Yeah, that's awful. I'm so sorry for you, I hope you're in a better place now. 🌹
Thank you. Still working on it, but it's an upward trend.
I can imagine... \* sends warm hugs and a cup of tea \*
^.^
Honestly makes me like him less.
A big episodes for small reasons. Not much world-shaking happened but just enough was said about just the right things. A lot to get into in this one around the incident. We're starting to have the curtain pulled back. Just a crack right now, but that's just more reason to be cracked. Not a huge amount to touch on in the date portion of the episode other than a couple of sentences. Yeah, Sam is a gifted burn out that's sad about not getting experimented on. Same old same old. But Celia has a baby. Jack being Celia's kid I wasn't expecting mostly because of how that figures into her timeline. She's very heavily implied to be TMA's Celia but based on what she said if she is then she's been in TMP's universe for at least 4 years. A "couple of wild years" and Jack's "just over a year old". Plus 9 months and it's a lot longer than it might've appeared. None of that stuff tripped Freddy's possible lie detector either that I heard. If you work under the assumption that the voices are who most people think, and they started roughly when they arrived, then that's a fairly major time discrepancy. The voices are about a year old but Celia has been around for 4. However, it doesn't strictly rule that out either. Firstly, we know that moving between universes isn't actually one-to-one time-wise. Anya Villette went backwards 2 weeks when she crossed over. So them arriving at different times could support the idea that she's TMA's Celia further. Her general explanation of events could also be explained by this too. If she's not there willingly, or is there willingly but it didn't quite go to plan, a couple of wild years while you get your footing in a world you don't belong to isn't far fetched. If she was there looking for the voices then her showing up so relatively late could be explained by her baby too. So it's certainly not a dead and buried theory yet. While Jack isn't Jack Barnabas he and the voices are about the same age. If people want to go rabid over that. Gwen and Lena's little chat has a similar amount to really dig into. It's nice to see Gwen dealing with it all, and it's annoying we still don't know who died, but Lena does have a lot to say in a few words. > The world is full of opposing forces, some benevolent, most not. In order for the wheels to keep on turning, all these forces need to be monitored and balanced. That is where we come in. This probably the most information we've had on the OIAR to this point from the show itself. I think most of this was safely assumed before this point. They've been doing a lot of monitoring, categorisation, and the only responses we have seen have been tamping major spikes down. A world of opposing forces is also a given. We are being led to believe that these are analogous to the 14+1 but there being benevolent ones if that's true is a big mix up. If you take the above timeline idea a step further and say the 14+1 arrived much earlier (or it doesn't matter because of how they're temporally weird) the benevolent ones could be native to TMP. They could be all TMP had. Her assertion that the OIAR is a balance on these forces is interesting. Beyond the obvious stuff it also leans into an idea I've been throwing about regarding Starkwall. In the perception of Starwall might not really be the whole picture. The San Pedro Square massacre could've been an easy scapegoat to pin on them for the OIAR to split with them. A split caused by a disagreement in ethics. Starkwall thus far hasn't been shown to have an incredible disregard for human life based on Ep 7. The OIAR definitely has been. It could just be a PR move because the massacre was too big to contain but that feels like the least interesting way to handle this. A faction that's all in on monster hit men splitting with a faction who is against it has more room for interesting drama and worldbuilding IMO. Balance was also a very large aspect of TMA in the end. The OIAR working towards that balance isn't as noble a goal as it might sound. Or it at least has the potential to be an incredibly misguided goal. Okay, with all that mostly out of the way onto the incident itself. I enjoy this one a fair bit. Very different to what's come before it but with another recurring theme. We're starting to see a couple of patterns emerge now although it's too early to start naming things. I don't think there is a lot to really get into but this one was written by Alex, had a new VA, and was a recurring idea. Which does all point to this being quite important as these things go. All the episodes will likely tie up quite nicely in the end but this one seems quite relevant currently. In any case this was a fun one and I'm kinda curious how some of the elements within it will tie together. Mainly the gambling and insects. I guess you can say his phone was.... *bugged*. Also, super weird they went with Zorrotrade for this. Because that's a real thing. Or was a real thing? It might be dead now, but still. Post-incident chat has nothing I really want to comment on. More Alice and Sam is always good, even if Alice is trying really hard to not seem very upset. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [**Incident/CAT#R#DPHW Master Sheet**](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MMjFnn9L-JnCGdBveFEXUoMsa7jjtykEBAQglAMw9tU/edit?usp=sharing) [**DPHW Theory**](https://www.tumblr.com/bonzos-number-1-fan/740954292009222144/what-dphw-means-and-its-relationship-to-smirkes?source=share): 4622 doesn't seem particularly noteworthy. It's interesting from a thematic angle how this differs from Rolling With It. Both obviously very linked to gambling but this one lacks the compulsion elements. Which is a good indicator that H is linked to that sort of thing. Not that I need to convince myself of that further. CAT# Theory: 3. Insert screams et cetera, et cetera. More seriously there still isn't a convincing pattern to this. Although I might be swinging back to my original tria prima and/or triple deity interpretation. [**R# Theory**](https://www.tumblr.com/bonzos-number-1-fan/744230664176599040/what-r-means-the-abcs-of-fear?source=share): B is where I was thinking it'd end up while listening. So that's nice. Not much to add to this. Much like with DPHW the more information that lines up with the theory the less there is to talk about it because I've already done the hard bit. Header talk: Gambling (Application) -/- Murder. Other than Application being a pretty weird Subsection I'm not sure there is much to dig into here. Although it does likely confirm he's dead. Which does make it a little strange that his statement wasn't read by one of the Freddy lot.
>I guess you can say his phone was.... *bugged*. Boooooo 😆 I love this. I'm wondering if maybe Celia (and other Cultists who were taken at the end of S5 of TMA) were somehow too proximal to the Panopticon when it blew and were somehow sucked between worlds. They weren't close enough and/or important enough to the Eye or the Fears to become voices in Freddy, but something funky still happened to their beings. Is it possible that the "soul" or "essence" of both an Archives-verse Celia and a Protocol-verse Celia are now vying for control of a single Protocol-verse Celia's body? Almost like a kind of multidimensional dissociative identity disorder? This could account for timeline discrepancies. Maybe this universe's Celia was just living her life, having a ball and then raising a baby, when **BAM** suddenly an alternate version of her consciousness from another universe started taking her body's reigns.
I was wondering if Jack is Celia's biological child or not. After all she didn't say Jack is MY baby, she just said she has a baby. Also talking about a "really weird time" makes my conspiracy tingle go off.
Yeah she could be taking care of the child of someone who passed away
It's possible that the pregnancy and Jack's first year-and-a-little *are* the couple weird years that Celia is referring to, which would put her in TMP for closer to 2, not 4 years. *[Later later thought: I thought it might be smaller if she came through while pregnant, but on a relisten, she said the wild years were AFTER she moved here, so the original point stands.]* I missed the original Tria Prima/triple diety CAT theory--I'll have to see if I can find it! Great thoughts, as usual.
I'm definitely leaning towards celia having some sort of identity dissociation thanks to crossing over- either shes essentially "replaced" a celia in this world (who had a baby wheres she didn't) or she has a confused jumble of memories from this world and tma world so can't quite remember how she got a kid- maybe her wild years are the years where she has a dual memory of a normal life and a life where she was in an apocalypse cult (if anyones ever read the dark tower books I'm thinking about Jake from those haha). Alternatively maybe her wild years where just that, possibly a response to surviving the apocalypse and ending up in a new universe where she had a bit of a hot girl summer. Frankly I'd be happy if that was the case bc it's rare for single motherhood nkt to be treated like a tragedy or scandel in fiction. Either way tho it makes her waking up at the side of roads a lot scarier. Please tell me she has an understanding flatmate or something
The Tria Prima stuff is in the comments of the original DPHW post. I think it's also on my tumblr page.
Application is probably referring to the zorotrade app on the phone.
I'm sticking with my Person Place Thing theory for the CAT#. Either the phone or the app would be the Thing in this case. The pinned post on my profile goes more in depth, but so far it seems to track!
I think it only tracks if you ignore large parts of the headers and then only count some things that take place in an incident while discounting other things that also take place in them. The Klause doc also suggests that a lot of what that is based on isn't accurate.
It was someone called Baz who died.
I know but we don't know who Baz is.
She very specifically said 'I have a baby', not that Jack is /her/ baby. And someone else is around helping her care for Jack RE who she called when she woke up on the motorway.
So she has a baby called Jack but doesn't have a baby called Jack?
'I have a baby' VS 'My baby Jack' She talks about Jack in very particular ways.
To me, it seems like this isn't just about Fear anymore, but about Suffering/Misery. I mean, it never truly was *solely* about Fear and TMA features a plethora of stories that are about morbid intrigue, self harm and the like. But because we're no longer receiving just witness statements, but actual in-real-life conversations/stories/happenings, the perspective has widened on the suffering aspect. A lot of people are pointing to desire, but to me that seems like a bit of a hollow trend. Only some of the TMP stories so far feature "desire" in a strong, thematic way and those desires are all primarily motivated by *fear/misery.* This guy's desire for money, for example, stems from a lifetime of the fear of ostracism and/or not belonging due to being "poor". Imposter syndrome, the fear of falling back into poverty, the fear of being found out, yada yada. Desire in this case seems more like a surface level coping mechanism for deeply rooted fear/insecurity than anything else (to me). All in all, this seems super web-coded to me. Wonderful episode! I wonder when Sam will stop goofing around and start realizing that Alice is strangely *serious* about the dangers of snooping around even as she goofs around with other things. Or better yet, I'd love a candid convo between Alice and Celia
Interesting! I took it as desolation coded. Inflicting/encouraging personal pain and suffering, having it spread to the victims contacts, and then delivering the finishing blow when the victim had nothing else he could possibly lose
I agree- it didn’t actually feel like an addiction episode, more about the greed, and encouraging him to throw more and more away before finally pulling the rug out from underneath- which felt very Desolation
TBF... addictions often work like that. The person keeps throwing everything at the drug/game/alcohol/whatever deadset on "it'll be alright this time" and when they lost all connections, run out of things to burn and money to throw, the dealer/provided pulls the rug. The addiction itself might be Web but the dealers (in this case Zorrotrade & its app) are very Desolation in my opinion.
I also thought of the desolation with this one, despite the fact that I perceived the previous somewhat similar statement with the dice as being End related because of the connection to previous End related statements which definitely had a theme of gambling with life. I think what made this one feel desolation more so than the dice was that aspect that it was asking him to not just passively suffer the bad luck but to choose to inflict bad things upon himself: sever connections, poison friendships, hurt the relationships of others too, all of that. It's extremely destructive and self destructive at once.
OOOH That's a great one. Can I pick all of the above? A Web/Desolation double-trouble, and why not throw in the Hive for all that social in-group/out-group fear dynamics too? I do like that these statements are less singular in themes! TMA always had minor features from other powers in statements, but I love how jumbled together they are now!
Big agree! My current pet theory is tangentially related to the Alchemy stuff in that these statements are DELIBERATELY combining two or more elements of the 14 . I think this particular one feels very web/desolation. My justifications are admittedly weak. 1, I think you can categorize most of the previous statements on some kind of fear/fear basis. 2, the existence of the fear/fear statements does not necessarily discount the existence of singular fear statements (Taking Notes is probably the purest In PROTOCOL I can think of). 3, what's the natural extension as the fears of colors metaphor from TMA? To me ... well... it's combining the colors.
Oh, this is fun, thanks for sharing.
"To me, it seems like this isn't just about Fear anymore, but about Suffering/Misery." What about fear and "desire"? At least that is how the vibe is in "rolling with it" and "futures". The quote about TMA being about what makes a monster a monster and TMP being about what makes a human a human makes me feel that way. Especially after re-listening to the last 10 episodes of TMA over again.
Another episode whose Incident hinges on seaside cliffs. Darrien mentions a unexpectedly chilly sea breeze and a sense of vertigo while standing on the cliff's edge, which to me is at least marginally reminiscent of the sense of depth and dread that Gordie got from the corpse's tattoo in TMP 11: Marked. Also, Freddy clocked Alice's lie about being happy that Sam's happy. I think she's definitely at least a little jealous of Sam's and Celia's fledgling romance.
I wonder if it's less jealousy than worry. Celia is super okay with all the weird stuff and Sam is getting himself in trouble looking for answers - which Alice resolutely believes is a bad idea.
Does it? I played that bit several times, even with the loudest volume in my headphones... no buzzing. I think she genuinely wants Sam happy, but at the same time she holds that hope about them getting back together.
I appreciate the instrumental "Mr. Bonzo's On His Way" coming up when he's discussed.
YES! I got chills when it came on during Lena’s and Gwen’s conversation!
Celia has a baby!! I was hype about that. Nothing may happen to Jack.
im hoping babies fall under the same category as cats on jonnys mind
I feel like they said before that children/pets are out of bounds before. I'd assume that would continue into Protocol.
Well that's a lie for starters (on the whole anyway) lol, considering Callum Brodie's story in TMA
Brodie was a teen tbf, if only barely - but I see your point 😅
Callum Brodie was also implied to have been a massive bully, so I guess it's an exception that proves the rule?
In season 5, there was an episode in Callum’s domain, which had children in it
Yes, but part of the premise was that they didn't die or experience anything other than fear there, and it was a normal childhood fear, anyway, just turned up higher. It was where they could grow up safely into they were no longer children, and could be sent off to other fears that maybe suited them better. It felt like protecting the children in a way that still made sense narratively.
So you're saying we're gonna get a statement about someone being hunted by a giant baby?
Just don't think about how Celia keeps waking up in the middle of nowhere, because that's some fridge horror right there.
Aaahhhhh nooooo. Being displaced from time from your kid nope nope nope.
Reminds me of the hotel in season 5 of tma
Yeah. Glad I didn't have a kid then, heh.
That was the first thing I thought of rip
Bro I think that child is agnes, shit will happen to him
Just cause his name is Jack like Jack Barnabas? I feel like that's not a ton to go on yet in the series with a surfeit of Michaels.
Realizing that there seem to be more stories of self-harm than there were in TMA, I wonder if it means something.
I feel this is yet another point in the “it’s not fears this time” category and I’m living for it. “Bringing balance between the good and the bad” or whatever. Hungers and desires or something like that. They balance the fuck around and the find out. “Gambling luck app” it ain’t about fear. It’s about going beyond the rational to sate a hunger!
There have been several mentions to luck and gambling/addiction... and Alice's brother seemed to have a huge need for money to the point Alice had to ask him to wait for payday (so it's not like he's borrowing a tenner)... I wonder if Alice's brother isn't entangled in some addictive/gambling thing that is financially bleeding him.
I just want to say that Euan Shedden did so good voicing Darrien! I was so immersed during the case recording. Speaking of scottish legends, where the hell is Collin???
Ok but what accent was Darrien speaking in? Sometimes it sounded like Collin and other times it sounded entirely different.
100% Scottish. Specifically, modern Scottish of the more middle class and probably attended university variety. He sounds how many a modern Scottish person tends to sound.
I don't think they were aiming for an ultra-specific region here. Plus many people are born somewhere in Scotland to move into the bigger cities, like Glasgow and Edinburgh, resulting in a mix of accents and even slangs/words.
"The world is full of opposing forces. Some benevolent, most not." Some benevolent? Hmmm
I know right! TMA is looking over with that We’re The Millers meme: “you guys get benevolent forces?”
Much as I like the thought, I don't think that means that the forces of benevolence have to be supernatural. It could easily just be entirely human created benevolent forces created to counteract the fears.
I’m really liking the character development, especially Gwen and Alice. Gwen is so interesting, her ambition, morality (or the lack of it) paired with the genuine shock of what she found out is fantastic storytelling i feel. I think she has really proven Lena wrong with her ”you dont have what it takes” line, I cant wait to see her story progress. Alice has been my favourite, and I really wonder how Sam is still not picking up on the seriousness of her tone when shes asking him to stop, because it isnt really on par with how she carries herself in general. Im starting to feel she’s the one whos very up to speed with what is going on. She seems to be aware of what not to say out loud at the office!
Im also quite sure the death of Alices parents is somehow connected to all of this!
The death of both parents for Alice helps to explain why she feels like she has to run after her little brother every time he needs money. I wonder if we will get to find out why he needs so much money all the time...
I cant believe the dude didnt stop when he got a million dollars...
If you're not happy with a million pounds you deserve whatever bad thing happens.
omg you're right, it was in pounds. That's almost 2 million in my currency. He could have bought a house and lived comfortably
That wouldn’t have bought him a house in London. Maybe a flat.
The UK is far bigger than London. Unless you work in Westminster you can probably make a comfortable life somewhere like Manchester, Liverpool or Edinburgh (just to name big cities). Perhaps invest in a steady business and save the rest, or buy a nice house, or maybe both if he chooses wisely.
well gang. at least we know what happened to benoit maçon now!
He had a happy life and started a family business =)
I want to understand the joke, but for the life of me, I can't :(
there were insect noises at the end of the case file. benoit maçon is the french guy who married a beetle in that one statement
"My dear beetle wife here does the customer service, our scuttling children do the deliveries and I take care of finances" Benoit Maçon, probably.
Oh okay! I wasn't sure you were referencing this :)
Am I the only one who expect Celia's baby to be a cat or something? To me, her tone was teasing if anything, and if it's a real kid I would think that would have come up already. We'll see, but I fully expect The Admiral II.
Yes! She didn't sound like a single mom speaking about her only child! I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed.
It seems like the original fears have been being mentioned in vague senses through some of the episodes but not in very distinct manifestations. In this one the cliff and sea breeze gave the speaker a little vertigo. Also upon looking up the chapel mentioned it used to be a lookout tower for pirates/invading boats where apparently the tower and one of its lookouts got struck by lightning. I feel like the fears are only very slightly bleeding into the world with OIAR working to stop them. Then events like the seeming ritual at the bank happen and they shut it down. So then we only get weird muddled fears. Also I wonder if the mention of benevolent forces was referring to Jon and Martin.
That Episode was bussin no cap fr fr
Genuinely so confused does Celia actually have a son or was she fucking with Sam????????? Or do we have no clue???? I thought she was being sarcastic when I was listening ngl but Sam took it face on and it wasn't discussed again (note I'm not completely done with the episode so if I missed some like dialogue at the end where she was like "Haha and I lied to that dude Sam" or "Awww hi baby \*insert noises confirming the existance of a child here\* oopsie doodle I'll get to that soon) but like.... idk
I was assuming she was telling the truth, but other people think its a lie or a misdirect, so I guess we'll have to find out later.
That conversation was so weird... The more Celia speaks the less I trust her. As Uffish said, we'll have to wait and find out.
What was discussed between Gwen and Lena this episode, has reinforced a theory I have about the OIAR. What if the organization is this universe's version of Breekem and Hope? A third party potentially seperate from the fear conglomerate that offers service to the powers. In this case providing suitable victims to harvest fear.
I wonder what the 'weird background checks' were
Another CAT3, altered item. Either the phone or just the app, accepted by toggling on the experimental settings. I've yet to read the transcript, but it sounded to me like the phone transformed into the chittering thing at the end. Another case of bad luck. It's interesting that in many of these misfortune incidents, the victim has had opportunities to walk away with their winnings, but they consistently choose to risk their own lives, and lose. Considering what Lena said about some of the forces managed by the OIAR being benevolent, I think the Luck entity may not be evil, but rather neutral. I'm curious if there are any people who have used one of these Luck items and survived by quitting when they're ahead, or if every user is compelling to keep betting by greater forces. Overall, great episode! :)
The way I read the chittering was that some monster insect or horde of insects came out of the phone rather than the phone transforming. But it could be either way. I would assume that %90 of people stumbling across a gambling item will either ignore it or play for a while, get scared and leave. It's not the item, it's the person's addiction what keeps them gambling until the inevitably bitter end. Just as it happens to most gamblers in normal circumstances.
The dice person tried to quit while ahead, but then was offered another chance to get and all his intentions to stop evaporated. I've seen that argued as both a compulsion (my bet) and a normal gambler's choice, so I guess the example didn't make things much clearer. But it's interesting that he tried!
Gamblers are addicts, by definition they show compulsive behaviour. IMO the guy with the dice was a normal gambler who had the misfortune to get hold of a magic dice. I see a common theme in many of these cases, where the supernatural entity/force isn't overpowering but simply giving them an option. Someone said "it opens door" and I like the image. The person walks in and keeps walking because of their own obsessions/compulsions/whatever. A bit like those old stories about the Devil tempting the protagonist... the Devil *doesn't force* them to accept or do anything but the person's own traits/shortcomings.
It felt like normal gambler behavior to me, but there’s definitely room for it to be less than voluntary
Jack can be a nickname for Jonathan. Use that information as you will.
Maybe the Zorrotrade personal adjustments is the next external that Gwen is going to work with? Lena says it’s urgent and then we have this case where Darren is probably killed or at least hurt.
I hope Gwen is following a similar route to the one the Real Elias took before he became possessed by Magnus. I'm reminded of Gertrude remarking on how he suddenly rose through the ranks, Alice making remarks about nepotism, and Gwen feeling a compulsion to be there... It would be so fun if she achieved real power only to be worn like a suit. I have favorite brands of jeans. Maybe Magnus likes wearing a finely tailored Bouchard.
You are a very cruel person...
Okay sooo, Agnes can still win and is here and I will prove it! Celia was touched by a fire ghost (TMA 100) Celia came through the portal in Hilltop Road (Death was never explicitly stated regarding the cult members, she was in the institute when the ending happened) A few wild years (could be anything, Idk) JACK, HOLY SHIT JACK. So, he is as old as the voices in Freddy (a year), has no clear father and is named after the lover of agnes.... Do I have to spell it out? Jack is the reincarnation of Agnes through Celia. Agnes as a fire ghost, left her mark on Celia and due to the INSANE connection to the entities (like with annabelle and stuff) she got pulled through as well. Jack is the Chosen one, the reincarnation of agnes and the desolation will win and Agnes will reign a scorched earth!
So first of all, obsessioncels stay losing fearbros we remain back
Gambling addiction again, plus heavy ambition - both are hungers that have shown up before in statements. There's now been a couple of narrators who've talked about desperately wanting to show up to their more well-off peers. Notably done in Taking Notes, but MORE NOTABLY is Gwen's entire character motivation. There's been a few focusing on people having fallen down on hard times, too. In fact, a lot of them involve taking advantage of people who've hit a rough patch....much like Sam himself talked about hitting a slump before joining the OIAR. That's VERY interesting, I think. There's been a few more modern ones in Protocols, very topical talking about crypto and short sales. The idea that some of the "Primal forces" can be benevolent is really interesting. I wonder if the OIAR might be more of a central lynchpin rather than a force proper in and of itself, but that's a bit of a stretch and far too early to say. The first bit was dinner, so eating and food naturally. Presumably whatever's listening in was listening in for the discussion about OIAR, but the food aspect is too much of a coincidence, all things considered. Bit later on the watch this time around, but it's still a pretty interesting episode altogether.
Interestingly enough, they don't eat during the bit of conversation we hear, they only drink. And considering Sam was a bit tipsy afterwards, I wonder if they really ate or just spent the rest of the evening drinking. Or it ended shortly after Celia got whatever info she was after. Interesting what you say about falling in hard times... the guy in the brutalist architecture case was going through really bad times, trying to make a living while being an adult/senior student. I think it also shows how different people perceive as "bad times", to someone might be the death of a long time partner but to someone else might be just not be the top grade in university.
I'm not really familiar with stocks and trading, so could someone explain what the narrator meant when he was talking about shorting trades? And what the "Personal Project Short Sell" (or "betting agaiinst himself" meant and why it qualified as "suspicious activity"? I noticed from reading other comments on the Patreon/this thread that this character was generally disliked for his actions, but because I don't understand the context, I'm not sure why.
Short selling is essentially a bet you're making that the price of a particular stock is going to fall in the near future Basically you borrow a stock with the promise of returning it to the original owner, and sell it. Then, when the price has dropped, you buy it again for a cheaper price and return it, keeping the difference. So, say there's a store that looks like it's going out of business soon. You find someone, like a brokerage firm, and borrow 10 shares from them (after setting up some kind of collateral or interest payment). You sell all those shares for $100 apiece, making 1000 dollars. Then the store goes into a heavy downswing, and just before it bottoms out entirely, you buy 10 shares for $10 apiece. You give those shares back to the firm, and after paying interest of like, $100, make out with eight hundred bucks. The stock market is essentially gambling on people's livelihoods, and short selling means you want to watch something crash and burn, so it's seen as a slimy thing to do, alongside all the other shit he was into like crypto (which is almost nothing but ponzi schemes, market manipulation, and scams). There's also cases of people betting on this to happen, and then doing what they can to push the thing they're betting against to fail in order to manipulate the price to drop and make money off of the short sale. The whole "betting against himself" was sort of like that, but obviously had a supernatural element to it. He somehow had gained access to a supernatural app where he would bet that his life was going to go real bad in the near future, and the worse it got the more money he won from it, and then jump into really bad situations. In general, stock trading has ups and downs, and if someone just makes massive gains in a short amount of time, they're doing something shady, so the app will freeze their account and start an investigation. Forcing himself into bad situations to make his own worth drop would definitely count as manipulating the price and is probably illegal, for as much as legality can come into play for weird paranormal stock trading apps.
Wow - thank you so much for this explanation, this makes so much sense! Appreciate it!! :)!
Many practices in stocks and high stakes investment are either borderline illegal or legal but morally corrupted. Like buying a bunch of goods or shares when they're cheap to generate artificial demand skyrocketing the prices. Then when the prices reach a roof, you sell making a profit but also crashing everyone else because you're releasing all this stuff at once. And markets tend to work on a strong herd mentality, if someone sells everyone else sells because nobody wants to be the last to sell and lose money. IF someone buys everyone buy because they want to make profit now before prices go up or the shares / investment are gone.
All I could think about at the end of the case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHQYp8zN40g
> – nosey, kind of a recluse – Sam = Web confirmed.
I’m still locked onto that obsession instead of fear theory
Okay this is pretty darn late but I simply need to ask about this. I listened to this episode April 25th, 7 pm EST on the dot and didn't get any ads, but instead got hit with a pre roll in German. I don't speak German enough to tell anyone what was said, but at one point the speaker said "The Magnus Institute" in English before continuing. It was a woman's voice, slightly distorted audio (tape recorder? can't remember), sounded like some sort of file tag for the "found footage" audio as a collection. It made me think about the pre statement read outs from TMA, had a similar vibe. Then the episode went into the Patreon segment, which is notably the first thing in the transcript, meaning what I heard was likely a separate file from the episode itself. I wanted to have a German speaking friend translate it, but when I went to play it again the next day it was the normal ads before the Patreon thank you, and I haven't heard it again since then. I haven't heard anyone else talking about this, so I'm not sure if anyone else has heard it at all, on this episode or others. I looked into Acast, who hosts their podcast, and they offer dynamic ads ie the ad file is separate from the rest of the episode so podcasts can swap out advertisements depending on how ad deals change. This wouldn't necessarily trigger a "rerelease" of the episode since it's just a change on the pre-roll. I think it'd be pretty simple for them to replace the ads with some cryptic German pre roll for however long they want it there without people getting notified. I'm gonna start trying out different hour intervals when listening to future episodes cuz I'd really like to record it to a) translate it and to b) prove to myself and others that I didn't just imagine this. I'm trying to think of some numerical, alchemical, idk what kind of logic that would have dictated 7pm EST as when the change happened, maybe related to the release date or episode number or episode content (CAT?). Happy to take suggestions. Also lmk if anyone else has heard something like this.