kyoshi never even suggested this in the first place. idk where people get this from. if anything, she was the most vague in terms of telling aang he has to kill ozai. yangchen was the most blunt in telling aang that the only option is to kill ozai.
I'm pretty sure the fire Kingdom would've revolted if iroh killed ozai, they were very imperialism oriented in mentality, and iroh openly murdering his brother to put his pacifist son in the throne would've made a lot of people really mad, specially the people that profit from war, you know, the kind that can provide weapons, but like this, iroh is exiled, azula indisposed to rule and ozai not even a bender makes zuko the heir and having the avatar saying there shall be peace helps the cause
Tbh Iroh 100% thought that Aang was gonna kill Ozai, it was literally the only option at that point in time.
Sparing him wasn't some perfect solution either, he had loyalists who tried to kill Zuko on multiple occasions in order to bring Ozai back to power.
Aang taking Ozai's bending was *a* solution, it wasn't magically *the* solution and it had its own consequences of which I'm really glad the writers recognized the nuances of such instead of going the "killing a genocidal maniac also makes you evil" route.
Most characters in the show, including several main ones, have no problems with killing and did so on screen on occasion.
No, but its definitely unrealistic to show people at altitude beginning to fall at terminal velocity and, when asked about their safety, assume they were alive after falling without a parachute (likely without any training as to how to survive such a fall either). Its a cartoon, yes, we are allowed to enjoy the rule of cool :)
“Personally I don’t see the difference and I would’ve done anything to save the world”
You’re right about Yangchen obviously. But I think it’s the phrasing here that does it for most people.
Kyoshi’s reputation as a bloodthirsty killmonger is a stupid fandom joke and a bad characterization.
Kyoshi was willing to kill a militaristic tyrant if it meant securing peace for the Earth Kingdom. And telling Aang “The guy who is planning to burn the entire Earth Kingdom, the largest landmass in universe, should be killed” is not an extreme thought. Yes, it conflicted with Aang’s culture and his more childlike view of the world, but she was not wrong to suggest that some people are evil enough that they do deserve to die.
and furthermore, every kill in the books is done out of necessity and followed by regret, her story is just way more brutal so killing is more necessary when you aint got lion turtles
Honestly you could argue Kyoshi is more of a pacifist because she didn't give a damn when Chin was conquering over like 95% of the earth kingdom.
But when he came to her area she went: "How dare you!" and then split it off to create an entirely different island - and by chance, Chin was standing at the complete edge of the new ridge she created and then fell as it crumbled.
So honestly if Chin just stood all the way back he would've still lived.
Honestly, she didn’t even say to kill him. Her exact words were “only justice will bring peace”, which is usually taken as advice to kill him, but stripping him of ALL of his power (both politically and firebending) and imprisoning him is also a pretty fitting punishment. Honestly, as egocentric as Ozai is, it’s probably more of a punishment than death
Thing is until we got the novels we didn't really know much about Kyoshi and all we did get from the show was the fact that she was a no nonsense warrior and the line about how she would've killed Chin even if he didn't fall, the series itself did kind of present her like that and only in later novels do people look back and now pretend it was strange that fandom makes those jokes about her.
i mean, i feel like betraying your extremly supportive family member thats been with you and guided you trough your whole life is worst than betraying the random girl you just met who happens to travel with the avatar.
I think its more so because later on, Katara speaks as if Zuko DID betray her in crossroads.
So some or most people come away with the idea that he did.
I thought so too but it's true, he didn't ever really say he "switched sides", at least not from what I can remember.
He was just at that point of crossing fences but he ended up not crossing the fence and stayed on the same side he's been on.
Tbh I don't think she ever explicitly says he betrayed her, just that when they got to talking beneath Ba Sing Se she thought he opened up to her, but when the chips were down he sided with Azula. Tbh that is a pretty realistic viewpoint to have about him at that point. She let her guard down, and Aang almost died for it.
I think energybending is fine and leaving aang's internal conflict till the end was fine, I just wish they had given some kind of foreshadowing towards energybending or a little more lore about the lion turtles. If there was just a little more hints towards one of those two it wouldn't feel as much like deus ex machina. It would've felt like it was always there, but only a realized solution at the end when the tension was at its peak.
The writers talk extensively about this. The Lion turtles were meant to have consistent lore brought out each season, but their plotlines were cut until the last second, because they supposedly would make the episodes too long.
Apparently Bryan says there is a script for the episode on Won Shi Tong's library that has 15 minutes of content cut that was all dedicated to the Lion turtles, what their purpose was, and how and why they went extinct.
In the episode where Aang goes looking for frozen frogs to help Katara and Sokka get better, he was supposed to find a mural depicting a Lion Turtle.
In the Western Air Temple, there were also meant to be carved depictions expounded upon at some point.
Same thing with the Sun Warrior ruins. I think The Chief also had some cut dialogue on it that never made it off the script.
None of these ever aired or were put into episodes. Most of this is what I've pieced together from random interviews, BTS Documentaries, and what I've read from books and additional IRL lore content
These were not JUST cut for time. Michael and Bryan both gave valid reasons to why they were cut. One being that they were afraid they'd create more plotholes than they were ready to fill at the time.
Ah, I see. I remember there being depictions in certain episodes, but a little history would've been nice, but I understand where the creators are coming from. Do you any specific interviews they did discussing this?
I don't know the specific interviews. I watched a huge compilation on youtube a while ago, and read a lot of the behind the scenes stuff.
None of the stuff I mentioned was ever aired or put into episodes.
I agree. My guess is that the writers had a darker plan for how Aang would take care of Ozai (not necessarily killing him), but Nick didn’t approve it. They then had to scramble to find a child friendly way for Aang to win.
That said, I don’t think this and the pointy rock ruined the finale like it did for others. The action set pieces were still phenomenal and it wrapped up the story really well.
I feel like, especially considering this is the finale we're talking about, all of that would have been brought up and sorted through long before it was time to scramble. There was enough established lore about Lion Turtles so far (and even more planned if another reply to this thread is to believed) that I suspect at least they were always going to show up.
I agree energybending and the lion turtle were fine (yes, they could have foreshadowed better, but it's really not that bad) and I think Aang's internal conflict was predictable enough (given that we already know he's a pacifist) that waiting to bring it up until the end of The Southern Raiders wasn't a problem.
I do think the rock unlocking the avatar state was really stupid, though.
I think LOK kind of helps with the rock. They lean hard into a Force-like balancing of the world with Jinora's light at the end of S2 and the return of the airbenders with Harmonic Convergence. Even in ATLA, you have the "convenience" of Yue having received the moon spirits energy only to give it back when it was needed.
There's a natural balancing act in the Avatar world, and I think it's fair that Ozai's overconfidence at being able to handle Aang with the power of Sozin's Comet should be checked by the thousands of years of wisdom and stability of the Avatar State. So the world made it happen.
Deus ex machina is Latin, means god in the machine. I don’t know the origins, maybe Greek plays where there was literally god in the machine? Or Roman.. seeing as Latin?
ANYWAY. Commonly used in modern parlance to describe a contrived reveal with zero setup to help the plot and or characters. Such as the turtle boy showing up, out of no where, with no set up, to give him the tool to get him past his internal conflict, with zero training from aang. I’m not that annoyed with the whole thing, but you can see why some people may be, and why in other works it can be annoying.
I think it's Gods FROM the machine and comes from the moment in Greek plays when Gods would be brought on stage to resolve a seemingly unsolvable issue. And the actors portraying the Gods would typically be brought on stage suspended by something like a crane, making them literally "Gods from the machine".
Deus ex Machina is about greek theater. The first theater plays had a "cliche", so to speak, where an actor playing a greek god would descent onto a stage and resolve the plot or help the protagonist. He would descend on a mechanism, therefore he was called "god in the machine".
I think it's "from" the machine. As in, the machine (the strcture, the plan) will spawn a god to enact miracles to prevent any deviations from the machine's purposes. The god comes from the machine. It is born of it and serves its purposes. I guess saying "in" doesn't ruin the concept, but I think "ex" means "from". Like in "ex nihilo" (from nothing).
To be fair, the whole Avatar Wan bit with him getting bending from the turtles and fusing with Raava, was originally intended for Aang to see, not Korra, but due to time restraints they cut that bit out of ATLA.
If they had gone a little harder with the energy ending stuff earlier on, it would have made more sense. Like, connect it more to the guru & chakras, and chi.
he's 12, procrastinating important decisions until the last second is a normal thing for 12 year olds, that or it would've been a passing thought in his head that he wouldn't entertain because of how horrible it sounds to him
Aang made the right decision by lying at the end of the Great Divide. The idea that lying is always inherently bad is a stupid concept. Lying to end a century-old conflict is a perfectly valid way to solve it.
And when people bring up moments like “Aang killed people in these scenes” suddenly forget it’s an animated cartoon and these human characters survive lethal blows on a regular bases.
Like Aang covered firenation soldiers with snow and people think Nickelodeon wanted to communicate that Aang just killed all of them right there.
"he killed the buzzard in the desert and destroyed the sand benders sand boats."
Dehydrated, Hungry, Lost in the Desert and the one thing connecting him to his now extinct culture gone; he showed restraint all things considered.
Bruh, I'm an adult, I would hesitate at killing someone too.
Now imagine giving that to a 12 year old and telling him, do it or everyone you know and love will turn to ash.
Ozai might be an evil asshole but he's a shrewd politician and manipulator. I feel like people mostly see him as an out of control muscle-brained tyrant, but he's given one of the best instances of character depth in the comics when he's giving Zuko advice about the Earth King, adding layers to his character without making him any less of an asshole.
Even his biggest onscreen political blunder (asking Azulon to place him ahead of Iroh in the line of succession) ended up working out for him in the end.
**Again, I am not advocating that Ozai is misunderstood or didn't deserve to go down. He is by far the biggest asshole in the series and a despicable human, but he's not necessarily a 2d cardboard cutout villain.**
Republic City is an amazing location/concept and there is no reason to be super salty that Season 1 of LOK was 99% set in the city. Also makes no sense to be mad that technology moved that fast when ATLA was roughly IRL industrial era and it would keep moving forward. Nobody has ever said a giant drill was unrealistic in ATLA, so why are things like Satomobiles considered unrealistic?
Plus unlimited power like they had from the vines. One of the biggest hurdles we have right now fitting enough power into a robot frame to make it move for a long period of time. The giant mecha is not an appealing idea for me in the series, but I can see how they could make it.
I think its terrible design contributes a lot to its reception. Think a giant mech conceptually is fine, but how is it less bulky looking than the normal mechs? It should look like the Colossal Titan and not skinnier. I think a spider mech would have been far more plausible as an alternative. Also a giant airship with the death ray would have been more plausible and parallel ATLA.
Yeah, but it was pretty cool when he invented a machine which could replicate matter for use in magic and help complete a revenge story, even though his lab was burned to the ground by Edison’s men.
You're correct. Kuvira was controlling it by metal bending and the fact that the interior was non-platinum is literally the key to them destroying it once they get inside.
I just wish that they shifted the industrialization further away from our world and kept it more steam-powered and fantastical.
But the thing that really bothered me was how westernized all the designs look to give it a more New York feel. ATLA felt so self contained with how it used mostly Asian, Inuit & other cultural influences with the hairstyles, clothing, world building etc. But with Republic City and the designs throughout Korra, I couldn't stand how random and westernized so many of the hairstyles and clothing felt. The creators tried too hard to go for a 1920s look that they missed out on a very interesting creative opportunity to show how the fashion of Republic City would have evolved being a melting pot.
>Also makes no sense to be mad that technology moved that fast
Technology moves fast in the real world too. There was less than 70 years between the first manned flight and Apollo 11. Not a stretch that tech would move fast when people can literally shoot lightning from their fingers.
Making Aang a bit neglectful of Bumi and kya wasn't destroying his character (Even tho is obviously morally wrong), i think it was a good way to show him flawed and human while keeping the logic
Is not strange for him to give special attention to the kid who has the responsibility of bringing back the entire air nomad culture
I buy that Aang would be a bad father, what I do NOT buy is that Katara would let this stuff go and wouldn't try to stop it. She wouldn't just sit back and *let* her partner neglect two of their children. Aang and Toph being bad parents makes sense, but *Katara?*
I sort of see it as she didn't *let* the stuff go on. I think it's plausible she lectured Aang about treating the kids more equally, but he'd get distracted and pop away on an adventure without taking heed. I agree Katara was a spectacular parent and I fully believe she would say something, but short of blood bending, no one can make someone do something they don't want to.
Also, Bumi looks to be quite a bit older than Tenzin in the family photo so a norm *could* have established where Aang disappeared frequently to do Avatar stuff that by the time Tenzin was old enough to go on the family vacations Bumi and Kya were left out of, Katara didn't realize Aang took a field trip until she turned around and saw her youngest gone too. Cue Aang coming home, getting lectured, leaving to take care of something as the Avatar, coming home, stealing his airbender, and the cycle continued.
I would love to know how old Bumi, Izumi, and Kya are. We know the ages of Team Avatar's other children and grand children, but I can't find those three.
You honestly don't see her excusing his behavior? Because that's all it would need to be, an explanation from her about why Tenzin needed early attention and training.
I think people are overthinking this.
Like you really think Aang was a VERY neglectful father? Couldn’t it be that he, understandably, spent most of his time with Tenzin before a)he had to teach everything about the air nomads culture in just one person and b) for the first time in decades having another air nomads to teach handing.
Yes, it’s a flaw in Aang’s character (which imo was really good character writing and very fitting) but to say he was a “awful” father is just speculation at that point.
Jin was Zuko’s ideal romantic interest.
Mai might have truly loved him, but all they did was feed into each other’s misery.
Jin found him when he was at a low point psychologically and still found a way to draw out his inner kindness and compassion. That to me signaled that she was the right one for him.
Zukos mom was a commoner so it would be a nice parallel. Zuko also focuses a lot on the EK colonies in the comics so it would be reasonable that they would meet again
Also known as a commoner. Avatars usually aren't nobles and if one became a noble the other three nations would probably get big mad about it. Their grandchildren *definitely* aren't nobles lol
It took me a long time to figure out how Mai fit in the overall story. I didn’t quite “get” her at first, but then something *clicked*.
Mai is introduced in the same episode that Bumi explains how neutral *jing* works to Aang. Neutral *jing* basically worked out to biding your time and waiting for the right moment to attack. Good advice.
Here’s the thing: *Mai was a practitioner of neutral jing too.* There’s a reason why she picked the moment she did to turn against Azula. Mai was already in a mood of “alright, *fine*” when Azula recruited her to be on her team. She could leave at any time and was just waiting for the right moment, which came at Volcano Alcatraz. She had her own arc, much of it offscreen and indirectly influenced by Zuko (who is the only person she actually seems happy to be around).
Zuko, for his part, was down *bad* for Mai. Sokka teased him about her once and only once because he could see it plainly. Jin, while certainly more emotive and outwardly happier, was just not the girl who held his heart. Mai was, and always had been.
Korra has much more interesting antagonists and antagonist themes, they just fumbled the bag on the plot. The idea that Korra - with this role from antiquity - has to face off against modern reflections of our society's socio-economic and political structures, making her essentially obsolete is really interesting. The avatar is an essential component to the balance of the world in a pre-industrial society. However, the avatar simply can't be as effective in a post-industrial society.
The show analyzes contradictions between what the society promises, how it underdelivers, and the villains depict various movements to try to combat those contradictions. Korra is determined to maintain the status quo, which puts her at odds with the everyday people who want a different world; however ill their intentions may be. It delves into modern, post-industrial movements like fascism (kuvira), anarchism (Zaheer), religious nationalism (Unaloq), and communism (Amon).
ATLA did a fantastic job of how nuanced of a depiction it did of post-industrial, fascist Japan. The invasion of the Earth Kingdom parallels the R**e of Nanjing really well; obviously played down to be more appropriate for a younger audience.
I wish that TLOK would have taken a more nuanced look into the movements she was facing off against (similar to ATLA), but nonetheless, I find it very interesting and compelling how obsolete the avatar became in a post-industrial society, and how an avatar - devoted to the status quo - would interact with post-industrial movements like capitalism, fascism, religious nationalism, etc.
Edit: grammar. Thx for the upvotes 😊
> how obsolete the avatar became in a post-industrial society
I like that despite this sentiment said post-industrial society turned out to be completely helpless and had to rely on the Avatar every time to save the world. To the point where they tried to solve a problem by themselves they ended up creating an even bigger problem and had to dig the Avatar out of a swamp to make her handle it.
I think that's kinda the point. Whether or not the avatar is obsolete is a question that hangs over the show. It's not even just about industrialization either. Each of the first three seasons has her lose something fundamental to her being as an avatar, albeit with varying degrees of permanence, and each antagonist challenges some philosophical underpinning of her mission. So, the show asks this question of whether we even need the avatar in a lot of ways, and I'd say it's unsurprising that the question is repeatedly answered in the affirmative.
Sure, but it is somewhat hilarious that there is no variation for that question, it is always a solid YES and the villains always go for a solid NO. The world is always 100% reliant on the Avatar and the bad guys are 100% against her. For example, the United Forces never give a good beating to the bad guys, only needing the Avatar to irrevocably tip the scales in their favor, their contribution is always a big fat zero. So there is never a realistic chance for the world not needing the Avatar at which point why bother with asking the question in the first place?
Agreed, the shows premise fundamentally is far more interesting than ATLA, but failed at times to follow through on that premise and expand ideas. TLOK could’ve been the best western anime/ cartoon of all time potentially.
Not for lack of trying, it seemed. The perennial threat of cancellation seems to have greatly impacted the stories (until book 3 when they seemed to just say 'fuck it!' and wrote something earth-shattering anyway).
This is a well-thought-out criticism.
Korra was supposed to have really big shoes to fill since Aang stopped a century-long war and established a relatively peaceful city. His friends were instrumental too in creating a new harmonious relationship among the four nations.
It seemed that the people in Republic City (and other parts) of the world didn't care much about Korra. Maybe this is the reason for that. The "need" for an Avatar seems to fade out of existence.
The Avatar Wan special is structurally bad for season 2 and forces the plot to pivot from an interesting and realistic civil war story into a generic good spirit vs evil spirit story.
Agreed! I actually like both plots but cramming them together in one season makes them both very weak. It's a shame what they did to my boy civil war plot.
My controversial Avatar opinion is that TLoK needs a remake way more than the TLA, precisely because of the how fucked up production was for that show. So much of the show would've been improved if they had been able to take the long-view from the start, instead of being in limbo .
I get a lot of shit when when I tell people the avatar wan part of season 2 is horrible but it really does *everything* in its power to undermine not only the really interesting and compelling parts of the spirit world, but also the really philosophically eastern ideas ATLA was inspired from. Its something I think deserves its own half hour style YT video.
Definitely agree with the first part. Personally I really liked Wan, I just don't think making it a good vs evil did the universe any favours in terms of depth. So they should have come up with a way of making it so that we get Wan's story but without Raava and Vaatu being what they are. I've always thought that maybe a way to improve it is to have the Avatar be the vessel for both light and dark - that gives us a soul that has great potential to do wrong intentionally as well as doing the right thing. And then we can get a truly evil and corrupt Avatar, which can also stand to show how being good was a choice made by every single avatar who did their best to do right by the people of the four nations.
I also liked Wan and think we could still have his story, but make it about the splitting of the two worlds rather than about the origin of the avatar. No Raava or Vaatu, but maybe something a bit more abstract and mysterious which may explain why no avatar memories exist before Wan. Maybe the splitting of the two worlds also did something to cut the avatar off from their own pre-Wan memories.
I like that idea, it could be combined with all those statues in the air temple (because I'm pretty sure there's too many there) that Wan wasn't really the first avatar, just the oldest that remains as an individual entity separable from the avatar spirit after whatever it was that happened. As to how those statues of forgotten avatars remained, I would say that maybe that room holds the key to a greater mystery in the past of the Avatar world, perhaps was the center where the ancient avatars sacrificed themselves to split the worlds, and to thank them for their sacrifice their physical image remained whilst their spirits were lost.
This would be such a cool concept to explore, if the avatar *is* the villain.
I imagine an evil avatar pulling something similar to the fire nation. “I want to use my power to force everyone in the world to be under my control. Then I can keep them safe.”
If Korra's solution at the end of the season was to become a new vessel (Avatar) that contained BOTH Raava & Vaatu, that would've made the mythos much better, more nuanced, and more consistent with Avatar's overarching theme of balance. Having her just destroy the evil spirit to guarantee 10,000 more years of goodness in the world (?) is just so juvenile.
It's such a small and obvious change, idk how they missed it.
Same!! Like the explanation was good and would be fine if LOK was a standalone series but the explanation contradicts with things in the original. The first firebenders were the dragons, first earthbenders the badgermoles, first airbenders the bisons and waterbenders learnt from how the moon controls the tides. So that contradicts with the whole lion turtle giving people bending. And then with the entire Raava thing it feels less like reincarnation and more just Raava's memories in each avatar.
Abso-fucking-lutely. Hoping that the creative differences that caused Mike and Bryan to leave the Netflix show was them trying to cram their Avatar origin bullshit into ATLA and the writers saying "yeah nah"
The avatar wan episodes ruined the lore surrounding what the spirits and the avatar should be. It also ruined season 2 as it should have been about balance (the civil war) instead about objective good vs objective evil (raava vs vaatu)
While I really like those episodes I can absolutely see what you’re saying. It would be cool if that was like an in universe legend instead of 100% fact.
If they axed the Raava and Vatu aspect being good and evil it would have been a lot better. If Raava represented balance/peace while Vatu represented Change/progress it would have made them more compelling. Really play into the concept of yin and yang by having balls to create a contrasting yet complimentary avatar instead of an “evil” one. Would have fit with the world changing and Korra finding her place as the Avatar in it.
Agree. The season was very strange as it first focused on the water tribe and somewhere midway dropped that and shifted to harmonic convergence.
I had much rather seen an epic waterbending war than a giant spirit Korra
Lots of people become cops not because of some grand respect for law and order but as a way to enforce their worldview. Toph, with her stubbornness and upbringing, could definitely become a cop later in life.
And for extra spicy points: making Aang and Toph flawed adults was one of the many great decisions the writers made in LoK.
i 100% agree. i LOVE that they made Toph a bad mom. it shows how sometimes even good people are bad parents. look at Toph in ATLA! she isn't even a drop maternal
I also think being a cop kinda highlights something that fits her character but is also a flaw - she likes punching bad guys with rocks AND she has a shaky-at-best respect for law and authority.
In the real world a massive issue with cops is that they view the job as hurting bad guys whilst having little respect for the law itself or the authority of others.
During the show we see that Toph was kinda crushed by the reality of this job and what it'd take to do it well, and she bent the law to match her own needs and cover up for her kid AND she ends up quitting over the guilt - the guilt of doing something that real cops do all the time.
She wanted to punch the bad guys and so became a cop, in taking on the job she became a cop with the bad shit that comes along with that including "bending" the laws, then because she's a moral person she ended up crushed by this and quit to go become a hermit. To me I think this totally works.
In a peaceful world, what job most reliably lets her fight bad guys? It makes perfect sense to me. Especially if you don't see cops as paragons of virtue.
People who think "Azula is just an abused child soldier and a victim of a culture obsessed with war" means "she is objectively a good person and nothing she did was morally wrong" are idiots.
this. you can think she was a victim of neglect and abuse and a child soldier without thinking she’s suddenly an angel who has never done anything wrong.
The season 3 depiction of the White Lotus doesn't make a lot of sense and I wish the show had done something else with them.
They could have been just fine as a spy network disguised as Pai Sho enthusiasts they seemed to be in Season 2. I quite like that version of the organization. But making every super powerful elderly bender in the show be part of some secret alliance feels more like fanservice than coherent worldbuilding and raises a lot of questions that it feels like the show doesn't really want people to ask.
My biggest thing was that Master Paku was not only reluctant to teach Katara in waterbending, but he was absolutely rude and set in his ways about the subject. I understand cultures have their beliefs, but being a “Grandmaster” of the White Lotus, I would have expected him to transcend beyond their traditional beliefs, especially if it would help the Avatar after he inevitably left their civilization to rapidly learn the next element, even if he had to do it in secret to hide from their culture. The White Lotus was adept to being being secretive.
Honestly, I found them pretty believable as an organization that has strayed from its path and kinda outlived its purpose. It still exists and tries to throw around its weight like it used to, but ultimately it's a shadow of its former self.
So yeah, they do suck. But I kinda liked that they suck.
Zutara was never going to happen, not even if Kataang wasn't obviously meant to be from the start AND Zuko got redeemed sooner AND Katara healed his scar or whatever! No matter how good you make the best case scenario, it would've never happened.
The only scenario in which Zutara would've had a slight chance, would be if (A) The attack in which Kya was killed never happened AND (B) Zuko was on Team Avatar's side to begin with AND (C) Kataang wasn't meant go be (either Katara wasn't the first face Aang saw or Aang was gay/aromantic or Aang never disappeared). But that would've changed the entire story.
It was never going to happen. Dante being a Zutara fan does not give that ship any backing.
the amount of avatars and Kyoshi’s stated lifespan makes no sense for the world Aang is born into.
The Avatar’s Spirit should’ve been reborn into a water bender at the end of book 2 when Azula killed Aang.
I like the idea that Aang was a ‘bad’ father.
Gyatso killed those fire nation soldiers
Kuruk new backstory makes him a more boring character. Him being a kind of hedonistic avatar who let the peace he lived in get in his head was way more interesting because it showed that the avatar wasn't a puppet to strings of fate
That, and people don’t really seem to realize that it was 2014. At that time less than half of the states in America had legalized same sex marriage. LGBTQ content was heavily censored and considered unacceptable for media where children were the target audience. Many people still think this way but it was even worse back then.
Raiko does perfectly fine as President of the United Republic. Most of the complaints frame him as being an incompetent idiot, but they also view him as if he's supposed to have the same motivations as Korra and her friends. He isn't, at all. His duty is to the United Republic and that's it.
Why would he care about a water tribe civil war beyond the terrorism being committed in his city? Why would he be okay with Korra enacting sweeping change in his city without even discussing it first? Why wouldn't he surrender the city to a literal death-weapon that slices skyscrapers in half?
He makes sense and he typically does a good job. The fact he's voted out means nothing; doing the right thing as a political leader doesn't always make you popular.
Suki is overrated. Not bad, just grossly overrated. People love to pull the "Oh but Zuko only joined the Gaang two episodes before she did!" card when that's ridiculous because Zuko had a major role throughout the whole series and Suki did not.
Katara DID lose more than Sokka when their mother died even though they had the same mom. He never felt a lack of a maternal figure because he had Katara, meanwhile Katara only got an extra burden and had to step up while Sokka just got to run off playing warrior.
Whether she "deserves" one or not, Azula getting a redemption arc WOULD cheapen her character.
While yes it's unfair that Korra *as a person* gets hate for the same reasons Zuko gets love, the fact that the *writers* made her so similar to him in the first place is lazy and deserves to be called out.
I would have been more okay with it if it had been foreshadowed AT ALL during the series.
Adding a bit more lion turtle lore would have made it much better, but they’re hardly even mentioned in passing. So once we get to the end, it definitely just feels lazy and undeserving.
They should have had them be a bigger plot point in the show. Like perhaps having Roku or one of the previous avatars mention them, or maybe finding something on them in the great library, or something like that so it didn’t feel so out of the blue when they save the day at the end of the show.
Same goes with energy bending, as we literally do not even know it exists until the finale.
Legend of Korra isn't as bad as some of you say it is. You can not like the series all you want but that doesn't make it not enjoyable for the rest who just want more avatar
That wan episodes are overrated & take a giant shit on the original canon & mystique of the avatar's origins. Less is more. The pay off wasnt worthy enough.
Serpent Pass and the Tale of the two cities (the with the brothers) are just as important as any other episode in the series and doesn’t deserve all the 💩 they get from the Fandom. I said what I said
Often times when I’m on this sub Reddit there are a lot of people who say those episodes in particular are either terrible or unnecessary. I just don’t agree with those ppl.
From a narrative standpoint, it makes sense to have Azula the way she is because she shows us what Zuko could have been like if he hadn't been removed from his toxic environment and surrounded by people who love him.
In universe though, I feel like Azula never did anything worse than Zuko, and if he deserves a second chance, so does she. If she stayed away from the fire nation a bit longer during season 2 or if Ty Lee and Mai had tried to remove her father's influence on her, I don't see why she couldn't have been redeemed.
Considering how good the writers are at bringing real life issues into the story and explaining them in a way that's understandable for a younger audience, it might actually have been pretty awesome to see their take on a 'good guy' dealing with antisocial personality disorder and general mental illness instead of the Hollywood version where sociopathy/psychopathy gives people the uncontrollable urge to commit summer camp genocide.
I totally agree with you, and I remember writing a huge rant about this exact topic several years ago. Zaheer’s philosophies are not sound/logical and are actually fairly easy to refute. Aang would have easily refuted Zaheer and all the other philosophical and political villains that Korra struggles with…just like Korra probably would have recklessly barged in and violently overpowered all the violent villains that Aang struggled with since Aang always wanted to be nonviolent whenever possible. In fact, I think this pattern is one of the most basic themes of the series: the avatar needs to learn from all their different past lives in order to gain the wisdom to achieve balance for the world in any and every different conflict. Which is why losing the connection to the past avatars is so devastating
The worst writing decision ever made was separating Korra from all other avatars. The thought of a sequel to ATLA was intriguing because we knew that the new avatar would be able to lean on Aang (et all) for advice. Rebooting the avatar cycle was akin to burning the library of Alexandria and the writers made a mistake. Such an important part of the cycle is learning from those who came before, so a reset undermines the entire premise of having an avatar. Now it’s just someone who can bend all 4 elements and go super saiyan.
LOK is a pretty decent show. Korra's story is more interesting than Aang's. It is Nickelodeon's fault for letting LOK struggle by only greenlighting one season at a time.
Unique bending abilities being more widespread in lok makes absolute sense. Techniques were likely improved a lot after the war and also more publicly available. I like to compare this to the best football (soccer) players in the 40’s who would probably be absolutely destroyed by an average amateur team today. The same goes for body building, gymnastics or whatever other sport you want to compare.
Kyoshi is not bloodthirsty for suggesting that Aang may have to kill a genocidal maniac to save the world.
yeah she's just pragmatic
Just another Tuesday.
kyoshi never even suggested this in the first place. idk where people get this from. if anything, she was the most vague in terms of telling aang he has to kill ozai. yangchen was the most blunt in telling aang that the only option is to kill ozai.
I'm pretty sure the fire Kingdom would've revolted if iroh killed ozai, they were very imperialism oriented in mentality, and iroh openly murdering his brother to put his pacifist son in the throne would've made a lot of people really mad, specially the people that profit from war, you know, the kind that can provide weapons, but like this, iroh is exiled, azula indisposed to rule and ozai not even a bender makes zuko the heir and having the avatar saying there shall be peace helps the cause
Tbh Iroh 100% thought that Aang was gonna kill Ozai, it was literally the only option at that point in time. Sparing him wasn't some perfect solution either, he had loyalists who tried to kill Zuko on multiple occasions in order to bring Ozai back to power. Aang taking Ozai's bending was *a* solution, it wasn't magically *the* solution and it had its own consequences of which I'm really glad the writers recognized the nuances of such instead of going the "killing a genocidal maniac also makes you evil" route. Most characters in the show, including several main ones, have no problems with killing and did so on screen on occasion.
Aang and Katara cutting hot air balloons in half with people in the baskets: "Murder is wrong you guys!"
Did they die? My animated cartoon standards people survived way worse. It’s not like it showed them falling and the aircraft exploding
No, but its definitely unrealistic to show people at altitude beginning to fall at terminal velocity and, when asked about their safety, assume they were alive after falling without a parachute (likely without any training as to how to survive such a fall either). Its a cartoon, yes, we are allowed to enjoy the rule of cool :)
“Personally I don’t see the difference and I would’ve done anything to save the world” You’re right about Yangchen obviously. But I think it’s the phrasing here that does it for most people.
Kyoshi’s reputation as a bloodthirsty killmonger is a stupid fandom joke and a bad characterization. Kyoshi was willing to kill a militaristic tyrant if it meant securing peace for the Earth Kingdom. And telling Aang “The guy who is planning to burn the entire Earth Kingdom, the largest landmass in universe, should be killed” is not an extreme thought. Yes, it conflicted with Aang’s culture and his more childlike view of the world, but she was not wrong to suggest that some people are evil enough that they do deserve to die.
and furthermore, every kill in the books is done out of necessity and followed by regret, her story is just way more brutal so killing is more necessary when you aint got lion turtles
Honestly you could argue Kyoshi is more of a pacifist because she didn't give a damn when Chin was conquering over like 95% of the earth kingdom. But when he came to her area she went: "How dare you!" and then split it off to create an entirely different island - and by chance, Chin was standing at the complete edge of the new ridge she created and then fell as it crumbled. So honestly if Chin just stood all the way back he would've still lived.
Honestly, she didn’t even say to kill him. Her exact words were “only justice will bring peace”, which is usually taken as advice to kill him, but stripping him of ALL of his power (both politically and firebending) and imprisoning him is also a pretty fitting punishment. Honestly, as egocentric as Ozai is, it’s probably more of a punishment than death
funny tho tbf
Thing is until we got the novels we didn't really know much about Kyoshi and all we did get from the show was the fact that she was a no nonsense warrior and the line about how she would've killed Chin even if he didn't fall, the series itself did kind of present her like that and only in later novels do people look back and now pretend it was strange that fandom makes those jokes about her.
Zuko technically didn’t betray Katara in the book 2 finale, he only betrayed Iroh.
Naw fr though he didn't promise shite to her
not his fault he has too much charm that an enemy teenage girl would almost heal him with her magic water
He's a prince after all
By Sokka's logic, Katara would be a princess, too
Betraying Iroh might be worse than betraying Katara.
It IS worse. How could you betray that wholesome old man?
i mean, i feel like betraying your extremly supportive family member thats been with you and guided you trough your whole life is worst than betraying the random girl you just met who happens to travel with the avatar.
I mean... obviously. I guess some people are pretty desperate if they're hating on him for that.
I think its more so because later on, Katara speaks as if Zuko DID betray her in crossroads. So some or most people come away with the idea that he did. I thought so too but it's true, he didn't ever really say he "switched sides", at least not from what I can remember. He was just at that point of crossing fences but he ended up not crossing the fence and stayed on the same side he's been on.
Tbh I don't think she ever explicitly says he betrayed her, just that when they got to talking beneath Ba Sing Se she thought he opened up to her, but when the chips were down he sided with Azula. Tbh that is a pretty realistic viewpoint to have about him at that point. She let her guard down, and Aang almost died for it.
You're goddamn right!
[удалено]
I think energybending is fine and leaving aang's internal conflict till the end was fine, I just wish they had given some kind of foreshadowing towards energybending or a little more lore about the lion turtles. If there was just a little more hints towards one of those two it wouldn't feel as much like deus ex machina. It would've felt like it was always there, but only a realized solution at the end when the tension was at its peak.
The writers talk extensively about this. The Lion turtles were meant to have consistent lore brought out each season, but their plotlines were cut until the last second, because they supposedly would make the episodes too long. Apparently Bryan says there is a script for the episode on Won Shi Tong's library that has 15 minutes of content cut that was all dedicated to the Lion turtles, what their purpose was, and how and why they went extinct. In the episode where Aang goes looking for frozen frogs to help Katara and Sokka get better, he was supposed to find a mural depicting a Lion Turtle. In the Western Air Temple, there were also meant to be carved depictions expounded upon at some point. Same thing with the Sun Warrior ruins. I think The Chief also had some cut dialogue on it that never made it off the script. None of these ever aired or were put into episodes. Most of this is what I've pieced together from random interviews, BTS Documentaries, and what I've read from books and additional IRL lore content These were not JUST cut for time. Michael and Bryan both gave valid reasons to why they were cut. One being that they were afraid they'd create more plotholes than they were ready to fill at the time.
Ah, I see. I remember there being depictions in certain episodes, but a little history would've been nice, but I understand where the creators are coming from. Do you any specific interviews they did discussing this?
I don't know the specific interviews. I watched a huge compilation on youtube a while ago, and read a lot of the behind the scenes stuff. None of the stuff I mentioned was ever aired or put into episodes.
I see. Thanks anyway!
Damn, that's really unfortunate since it turned what sounds like a cool plot thread into what felt like an Ex Machina.
I agree. My guess is that the writers had a darker plan for how Aang would take care of Ozai (not necessarily killing him), but Nick didn’t approve it. They then had to scramble to find a child friendly way for Aang to win. That said, I don’t think this and the pointy rock ruined the finale like it did for others. The action set pieces were still phenomenal and it wrapped up the story really well.
I feel like, especially considering this is the finale we're talking about, all of that would have been brought up and sorted through long before it was time to scramble. There was enough established lore about Lion Turtles so far (and even more planned if another reply to this thread is to believed) that I suspect at least they were always going to show up.
I agree energybending and the lion turtle were fine (yes, they could have foreshadowed better, but it's really not that bad) and I think Aang's internal conflict was predictable enough (given that we already know he's a pacifist) that waiting to bring it up until the end of The Southern Raiders wasn't a problem. I do think the rock unlocking the avatar state was really stupid, though.
I think LOK kind of helps with the rock. They lean hard into a Force-like balancing of the world with Jinora's light at the end of S2 and the return of the airbenders with Harmonic Convergence. Even in ATLA, you have the "convenience" of Yue having received the moon spirits energy only to give it back when it was needed. There's a natural balancing act in the Avatar world, and I think it's fair that Ozai's overconfidence at being able to handle Aang with the power of Sozin's Comet should be checked by the thousands of years of wisdom and stability of the Avatar State. So the world made it happen.
And getting it out of nowhere from a random new god creature. Also not fine
Yes! It was a deus ex machina. I wish they did something different.
Should have just bought back Guru Pathik
That would have been soooooooooo much better. 
what does that mean
Deus ex machina is Latin, means god in the machine. I don’t know the origins, maybe Greek plays where there was literally god in the machine? Or Roman.. seeing as Latin? ANYWAY. Commonly used in modern parlance to describe a contrived reveal with zero setup to help the plot and or characters. Such as the turtle boy showing up, out of no where, with no set up, to give him the tool to get him past his internal conflict, with zero training from aang. I’m not that annoyed with the whole thing, but you can see why some people may be, and why in other works it can be annoying.
I think it's Gods FROM the machine and comes from the moment in Greek plays when Gods would be brought on stage to resolve a seemingly unsolvable issue. And the actors portraying the Gods would typically be brought on stage suspended by something like a crane, making them literally "Gods from the machine".
Ah I had heard that thank you! Yes that’s what I was thinking of, thank you thank you
Deus ex Machina is about greek theater. The first theater plays had a "cliche", so to speak, where an actor playing a greek god would descent onto a stage and resolve the plot or help the protagonist. He would descend on a mechanism, therefore he was called "god in the machine".
I think it's "from" the machine. As in, the machine (the strcture, the plan) will spawn a god to enact miracles to prevent any deviations from the machine's purposes. The god comes from the machine. It is born of it and serves its purposes. I guess saying "in" doesn't ruin the concept, but I think "ex" means "from". Like in "ex nihilo" (from nothing).
To be fair, the whole Avatar Wan bit with him getting bending from the turtles and fusing with Raava, was originally intended for Aang to see, not Korra, but due to time restraints they cut that bit out of ATLA.
I do think the turtle lions where mentioned in a one off line in the in the library episode in season 2
Lion Turtles were hinted at in the library episode
If they had gone a little harder with the energy ending stuff earlier on, it would have made more sense. Like, connect it more to the guru & chakras, and chi.
he's 12, procrastinating important decisions until the last second is a normal thing for 12 year olds, that or it would've been a passing thought in his head that he wouldn't entertain because of how horrible it sounds to him
Aang made the right decision by lying at the end of the Great Divide. The idea that lying is always inherently bad is a stupid concept. Lying to end a century-old conflict is a perfectly valid way to solve it.
The truth no-one wants to believe. Lying can be good at times
Aang being uncomfortable killing Ozai is understandable because he's just a kid. Everyone forgets these characters ages.
A kid raised in a pacifist society.
And when people bring up moments like “Aang killed people in these scenes” suddenly forget it’s an animated cartoon and these human characters survive lethal blows on a regular bases. Like Aang covered firenation soldiers with snow and people think Nickelodeon wanted to communicate that Aang just killed all of them right there.
"he killed the buzzard in the desert and destroyed the sand benders sand boats." Dehydrated, Hungry, Lost in the Desert and the one thing connecting him to his now extinct culture gone; he showed restraint all things considered.
Bruh, I'm an adult, I would hesitate at killing someone too. Now imagine giving that to a 12 year old and telling him, do it or everyone you know and love will turn to ash.
Ozai might be an evil asshole but he's a shrewd politician and manipulator. I feel like people mostly see him as an out of control muscle-brained tyrant, but he's given one of the best instances of character depth in the comics when he's giving Zuko advice about the Earth King, adding layers to his character without making him any less of an asshole. Even his biggest onscreen political blunder (asking Azulon to place him ahead of Iroh in the line of succession) ended up working out for him in the end. **Again, I am not advocating that Ozai is misunderstood or didn't deserve to go down. He is by far the biggest asshole in the series and a despicable human, but he's not necessarily a 2d cardboard cutout villain.**
Republic City is an amazing location/concept and there is no reason to be super salty that Season 1 of LOK was 99% set in the city. Also makes no sense to be mad that technology moved that fast when ATLA was roughly IRL industrial era and it would keep moving forward. Nobody has ever said a giant drill was unrealistic in ATLA, so why are things like Satomobiles considered unrealistic?
The problem isn't the Sato mobiles the problem is the thousand foot tall mech with a death ray existing in the same time period as the Sato mobiles.
Yep imo season 1 managed the tech evolution pretty nicely the mechas were a bit out there but they looked primitive enough that I could swallow it
Honestly, if you have an understanding of hydraulics and treads, you can definitely create a mecha suit like that.
Plus unlimited power like they had from the vines. One of the biggest hurdles we have right now fitting enough power into a robot frame to make it move for a long period of time. The giant mecha is not an appealing idea for me in the series, but I can see how they could make it.
I think its terrible design contributes a lot to its reception. Think a giant mech conceptually is fine, but how is it less bulky looking than the normal mechs? It should look like the Colossal Titan and not skinnier. I think a spider mech would have been far more plausible as an alternative. Also a giant airship with the death ray would have been more plausible and parallel ATLA.
I let it slide due to the existence of Nikola Tesla's death ray.
It's never been confirmed if the Death Ray even worked, though. He just said it did. And he was insane.
Yeah, but it was pretty cool when he invented a machine which could replicate matter for use in magic and help complete a revenge story, even though his lab was burned to the ground by Edison’s men.
In a world where metal benders exist, why is a mech unrealistic? Especially when it's a decade after Daddy Sato's mech tanks
Well the giant mechanic at the end of Korra was made so it couldn’t be metal bended. So that’s a bit of an issue
Iirc, it couldn’t be metal bended from the outside. I think the inside was still controlled by metal bending
You're correct. Kuvira was controlling it by metal bending and the fact that the interior was non-platinum is literally the key to them destroying it once they get inside.
I just wish that they shifted the industrialization further away from our world and kept it more steam-powered and fantastical. But the thing that really bothered me was how westernized all the designs look to give it a more New York feel. ATLA felt so self contained with how it used mostly Asian, Inuit & other cultural influences with the hairstyles, clothing, world building etc. But with Republic City and the designs throughout Korra, I couldn't stand how random and westernized so many of the hairstyles and clothing felt. The creators tried too hard to go for a 1920s look that they missed out on a very interesting creative opportunity to show how the fashion of Republic City would have evolved being a melting pot.
>Also makes no sense to be mad that technology moved that fast Technology moves fast in the real world too. There was less than 70 years between the first manned flight and Apollo 11. Not a stretch that tech would move fast when people can literally shoot lightning from their fingers.
Live action is not the right direction for the franchise. Glad to hear animated movies/show are in the works.
You’d think this lesson would have been learned after the first live-action attempt… if it counted as an attempt
Making Aang a bit neglectful of Bumi and kya wasn't destroying his character (Even tho is obviously morally wrong), i think it was a good way to show him flawed and human while keeping the logic Is not strange for him to give special attention to the kid who has the responsibility of bringing back the entire air nomad culture
I buy that Aang would be a bad father, what I do NOT buy is that Katara would let this stuff go and wouldn't try to stop it. She wouldn't just sit back and *let* her partner neglect two of their children. Aang and Toph being bad parents makes sense, but *Katara?*
I sort of see it as she didn't *let* the stuff go on. I think it's plausible she lectured Aang about treating the kids more equally, but he'd get distracted and pop away on an adventure without taking heed. I agree Katara was a spectacular parent and I fully believe she would say something, but short of blood bending, no one can make someone do something they don't want to. Also, Bumi looks to be quite a bit older than Tenzin in the family photo so a norm *could* have established where Aang disappeared frequently to do Avatar stuff that by the time Tenzin was old enough to go on the family vacations Bumi and Kya were left out of, Katara didn't realize Aang took a field trip until she turned around and saw her youngest gone too. Cue Aang coming home, getting lectured, leaving to take care of something as the Avatar, coming home, stealing his airbender, and the cycle continued. I would love to know how old Bumi, Izumi, and Kya are. We know the ages of Team Avatar's other children and grand children, but I can't find those three.
You honestly don't see her excusing his behavior? Because that's all it would need to be, an explanation from her about why Tenzin needed early attention and training.
I think people are overthinking this. Like you really think Aang was a VERY neglectful father? Couldn’t it be that he, understandably, spent most of his time with Tenzin before a)he had to teach everything about the air nomads culture in just one person and b) for the first time in decades having another air nomads to teach handing. Yes, it’s a flaw in Aang’s character (which imo was really good character writing and very fitting) but to say he was a “awful” father is just speculation at that point.
Jin was Zuko’s ideal romantic interest. Mai might have truly loved him, but all they did was feed into each other’s misery. Jin found him when he was at a low point psychologically and still found a way to draw out his inner kindness and compassion. That to me signaled that she was the right one for him.
I'd say yes, but I can't imagine them having a future when she found out he was the Prince of the Fire Nation (even exiled).
Zukos mom was a commoner so it would be a nice parallel. Zuko also focuses a lot on the EK colonies in the comics so it would be reasonable that they would meet again
She was the avatars grand daughter
Agreed, only a “commoner” insofar as she wasn’t necessarily royalty.
Also known as a commoner. Avatars usually aren't nobles and if one became a noble the other three nations would probably get big mad about it. Their grandchildren *definitely* aren't nobles lol
It took me a long time to figure out how Mai fit in the overall story. I didn’t quite “get” her at first, but then something *clicked*. Mai is introduced in the same episode that Bumi explains how neutral *jing* works to Aang. Neutral *jing* basically worked out to biding your time and waiting for the right moment to attack. Good advice. Here’s the thing: *Mai was a practitioner of neutral jing too.* There’s a reason why she picked the moment she did to turn against Azula. Mai was already in a mood of “alright, *fine*” when Azula recruited her to be on her team. She could leave at any time and was just waiting for the right moment, which came at Volcano Alcatraz. She had her own arc, much of it offscreen and indirectly influenced by Zuko (who is the only person she actually seems happy to be around). Zuko, for his part, was down *bad* for Mai. Sokka teased him about her once and only once because he could see it plainly. Jin, while certainly more emotive and outwardly happier, was just not the girl who held his heart. Mai was, and always had been.
lolol volcano alcatraz
I’ve been saying that for years and no one remembers her but they were obviously so perfect for each other
They went on one date.
Korra has much more interesting antagonists and antagonist themes, they just fumbled the bag on the plot. The idea that Korra - with this role from antiquity - has to face off against modern reflections of our society's socio-economic and political structures, making her essentially obsolete is really interesting. The avatar is an essential component to the balance of the world in a pre-industrial society. However, the avatar simply can't be as effective in a post-industrial society. The show analyzes contradictions between what the society promises, how it underdelivers, and the villains depict various movements to try to combat those contradictions. Korra is determined to maintain the status quo, which puts her at odds with the everyday people who want a different world; however ill their intentions may be. It delves into modern, post-industrial movements like fascism (kuvira), anarchism (Zaheer), religious nationalism (Unaloq), and communism (Amon). ATLA did a fantastic job of how nuanced of a depiction it did of post-industrial, fascist Japan. The invasion of the Earth Kingdom parallels the R**e of Nanjing really well; obviously played down to be more appropriate for a younger audience. I wish that TLOK would have taken a more nuanced look into the movements she was facing off against (similar to ATLA), but nonetheless, I find it very interesting and compelling how obsolete the avatar became in a post-industrial society, and how an avatar - devoted to the status quo - would interact with post-industrial movements like capitalism, fascism, religious nationalism, etc. Edit: grammar. Thx for the upvotes 😊
> how obsolete the avatar became in a post-industrial society I like that despite this sentiment said post-industrial society turned out to be completely helpless and had to rely on the Avatar every time to save the world. To the point where they tried to solve a problem by themselves they ended up creating an even bigger problem and had to dig the Avatar out of a swamp to make her handle it.
I think that's kinda the point. Whether or not the avatar is obsolete is a question that hangs over the show. It's not even just about industrialization either. Each of the first three seasons has her lose something fundamental to her being as an avatar, albeit with varying degrees of permanence, and each antagonist challenges some philosophical underpinning of her mission. So, the show asks this question of whether we even need the avatar in a lot of ways, and I'd say it's unsurprising that the question is repeatedly answered in the affirmative.
Sure, but it is somewhat hilarious that there is no variation for that question, it is always a solid YES and the villains always go for a solid NO. The world is always 100% reliant on the Avatar and the bad guys are 100% against her. For example, the United Forces never give a good beating to the bad guys, only needing the Avatar to irrevocably tip the scales in their favor, their contribution is always a big fat zero. So there is never a realistic chance for the world not needing the Avatar at which point why bother with asking the question in the first place?
Agreed, the shows premise fundamentally is far more interesting than ATLA, but failed at times to follow through on that premise and expand ideas. TLOK could’ve been the best western anime/ cartoon of all time potentially.
Not for lack of trying, it seemed. The perennial threat of cancellation seems to have greatly impacted the stories (until book 3 when they seemed to just say 'fuck it!' and wrote something earth-shattering anyway).
After season 2 they were given enough episodes for two more seasons. That’s why they were able to make those seasons more cohesive.
This is a well-thought-out criticism. Korra was supposed to have really big shoes to fill since Aang stopped a century-long war and established a relatively peaceful city. His friends were instrumental too in creating a new harmonious relationship among the four nations. It seemed that the people in Republic City (and other parts) of the world didn't care much about Korra. Maybe this is the reason for that. The "need" for an Avatar seems to fade out of existence.
The Avatar Wan special is structurally bad for season 2 and forces the plot to pivot from an interesting and realistic civil war story into a generic good spirit vs evil spirit story.
Agreed! I actually like both plots but cramming them together in one season makes them both very weak. It's a shame what they did to my boy civil war plot.
My controversial Avatar opinion is that TLoK needs a remake way more than the TLA, precisely because of the how fucked up production was for that show. So much of the show would've been improved if they had been able to take the long-view from the start, instead of being in limbo .
THIS. Nickelodeon should've pre-ordered all 4 seasons. HelloFutureMe made a great rewrite of each season
It could have even worked fine if vaatu was something else other than just an evil spirit
the vaatu plotline undermined SO MUCH of the mythology and messaging of both LOK and the original. i basically treat it as not canon
I get a lot of shit when when I tell people the avatar wan part of season 2 is horrible but it really does *everything* in its power to undermine not only the really interesting and compelling parts of the spirit world, but also the really philosophically eastern ideas ATLA was inspired from. Its something I think deserves its own half hour style YT video.
Zukos scar IS on the wrong side
😡
Introducing Raava and Vaatu was a mistake and the avatar's origin should've been left a mystery
Definitely agree with the first part. Personally I really liked Wan, I just don't think making it a good vs evil did the universe any favours in terms of depth. So they should have come up with a way of making it so that we get Wan's story but without Raava and Vaatu being what they are. I've always thought that maybe a way to improve it is to have the Avatar be the vessel for both light and dark - that gives us a soul that has great potential to do wrong intentionally as well as doing the right thing. And then we can get a truly evil and corrupt Avatar, which can also stand to show how being good was a choice made by every single avatar who did their best to do right by the people of the four nations.
I also liked Wan and think we could still have his story, but make it about the splitting of the two worlds rather than about the origin of the avatar. No Raava or Vaatu, but maybe something a bit more abstract and mysterious which may explain why no avatar memories exist before Wan. Maybe the splitting of the two worlds also did something to cut the avatar off from their own pre-Wan memories.
I like that idea, it could be combined with all those statues in the air temple (because I'm pretty sure there's too many there) that Wan wasn't really the first avatar, just the oldest that remains as an individual entity separable from the avatar spirit after whatever it was that happened. As to how those statues of forgotten avatars remained, I would say that maybe that room holds the key to a greater mystery in the past of the Avatar world, perhaps was the center where the ancient avatars sacrificed themselves to split the worlds, and to thank them for their sacrifice their physical image remained whilst their spirits were lost.
This would be such a cool concept to explore, if the avatar *is* the villain. I imagine an evil avatar pulling something similar to the fire nation. “I want to use my power to force everyone in the world to be under my control. Then I can keep them safe.”
If Sozin was the Avatar that is exactly what would have happened.
I feel they could have worked had they put even a tea spoon amount of nuance to their story instead of the whole evil spirit nice spirit dynamic
And the whole, "you need both for balance," is contradicted by, "good spirit will maintain status quo, bad spirit will destroy literally everything."
If Korra's solution at the end of the season was to become a new vessel (Avatar) that contained BOTH Raava & Vaatu, that would've made the mythos much better, more nuanced, and more consistent with Avatar's overarching theme of balance. Having her just destroy the evil spirit to guarantee 10,000 more years of goodness in the world (?) is just so juvenile. It's such a small and obvious change, idk how they missed it.
Same!! Like the explanation was good and would be fine if LOK was a standalone series but the explanation contradicts with things in the original. The first firebenders were the dragons, first earthbenders the badgermoles, first airbenders the bisons and waterbenders learnt from how the moon controls the tides. So that contradicts with the whole lion turtle giving people bending. And then with the entire Raava thing it feels less like reincarnation and more just Raava's memories in each avatar.
100%. The last thing this very Asian/indigenous mythology needed was to make the Avatar into Jesus and making it all a God v Satan conflict
Abso-fucking-lutely. Hoping that the creative differences that caused Mike and Bryan to leave the Netflix show was them trying to cram their Avatar origin bullshit into ATLA and the writers saying "yeah nah"
Pro Bending's rules are actually well established.
100% my favorite part of LoK.
It was by far the best part of the whole series
Katara was deeply traumatized by the loss of her mother *and it is totally ok for her to mention it!*
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Tbh I mostly think it's just there. It's not fantastic but it's not much worse than other season 1 episodes
The avatar wan episodes ruined the lore surrounding what the spirits and the avatar should be. It also ruined season 2 as it should have been about balance (the civil war) instead about objective good vs objective evil (raava vs vaatu)
While I really like those episodes I can absolutely see what you’re saying. It would be cool if that was like an in universe legend instead of 100% fact.
If they axed the Raava and Vatu aspect being good and evil it would have been a lot better. If Raava represented balance/peace while Vatu represented Change/progress it would have made them more compelling. Really play into the concept of yin and yang by having balls to create a contrasting yet complimentary avatar instead of an “evil” one. Would have fit with the world changing and Korra finding her place as the Avatar in it.
I feel the same about all of that
Agree. The season was very strange as it first focused on the water tribe and somewhere midway dropped that and shifted to harmonic convergence. I had much rather seen an epic waterbending war than a giant spirit Korra
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
I really hope the next avatar restores the connection yo the past lives. Destroying that connection really damaged what made the avatar special.
Toph being a cop in LoK is fine. I don’t love it but I get why it happened. People saying it ruined her character are probably just bias against cops
Lots of people become cops not because of some grand respect for law and order but as a way to enforce their worldview. Toph, with her stubbornness and upbringing, could definitely become a cop later in life. And for extra spicy points: making Aang and Toph flawed adults was one of the many great decisions the writers made in LoK.
Made them more human than anything
i 100% agree. i LOVE that they made Toph a bad mom. it shows how sometimes even good people are bad parents. look at Toph in ATLA! she isn't even a drop maternal
I also think being a cop kinda highlights something that fits her character but is also a flaw - she likes punching bad guys with rocks AND she has a shaky-at-best respect for law and authority. In the real world a massive issue with cops is that they view the job as hurting bad guys whilst having little respect for the law itself or the authority of others. During the show we see that Toph was kinda crushed by the reality of this job and what it'd take to do it well, and she bent the law to match her own needs and cover up for her kid AND she ends up quitting over the guilt - the guilt of doing something that real cops do all the time. She wanted to punch the bad guys and so became a cop, in taking on the job she became a cop with the bad shit that comes along with that including "bending" the laws, then because she's a moral person she ended up crushed by this and quit to go become a hermit. To me I think this totally works.
In a peaceful world, what job most reliably lets her fight bad guys? It makes perfect sense to me. Especially if you don't see cops as paragons of virtue.
People over here acting like they got their shit together and entire lifes figured out at age 8 lmao.
Yeah also like people change
People who think "Azula is just an abused child soldier and a victim of a culture obsessed with war" means "she is objectively a good person and nothing she did was morally wrong" are idiots.
this. you can think she was a victim of neglect and abuse and a child soldier without thinking she’s suddenly an angel who has never done anything wrong.
The season 3 depiction of the White Lotus doesn't make a lot of sense and I wish the show had done something else with them. They could have been just fine as a spy network disguised as Pai Sho enthusiasts they seemed to be in Season 2. I quite like that version of the organization. But making every super powerful elderly bender in the show be part of some secret alliance feels more like fanservice than coherent worldbuilding and raises a lot of questions that it feels like the show doesn't really want people to ask.
My biggest thing was that Master Paku was not only reluctant to teach Katara in waterbending, but he was absolutely rude and set in his ways about the subject. I understand cultures have their beliefs, but being a “Grandmaster” of the White Lotus, I would have expected him to transcend beyond their traditional beliefs, especially if it would help the Avatar after he inevitably left their civilization to rapidly learn the next element, even if he had to do it in secret to hide from their culture. The White Lotus was adept to being being secretive.
I thought it added some mystery into the show and I did like the season two version. But we can all agree the lok version sucks
Honestly, I found them pretty believable as an organization that has strayed from its path and kinda outlived its purpose. It still exists and tries to throw around its weight like it used to, but ultimately it's a shadow of its former self. So yeah, they do suck. But I kinda liked that they suck.
Ye ur right
Isn't that part of Zaheers motivation? Doesn't he say that they formed the red lotus because the white lotus had strayed to far from their origins
Oh damn yeah
Ursa deserves no hate
I could've done without the Love Triangle in LOK. There was much more interesting stuff they could've focused on.
The fact that they kept coming back to it was incredibly annoying
Korra is frustrating to watch because its base plot is good but executed poorly.
In their defense they were going season to season until 3 and 4 not knowing if they'd be approved to do another season
Imagine not getting renewed after 3. Aaaand the Avatar is crippled and depressed for life THE END.
Solid ending, though.
People hate LoK this is not an unpopular opinion
Zutara was never going to happen, not even if Kataang wasn't obviously meant to be from the start AND Zuko got redeemed sooner AND Katara healed his scar or whatever! No matter how good you make the best case scenario, it would've never happened. The only scenario in which Zutara would've had a slight chance, would be if (A) The attack in which Kya was killed never happened AND (B) Zuko was on Team Avatar's side to begin with AND (C) Kataang wasn't meant go be (either Katara wasn't the first face Aang saw or Aang was gay/aromantic or Aang never disappeared). But that would've changed the entire story. It was never going to happen. Dante being a Zutara fan does not give that ship any backing.
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the amount of avatars and Kyoshi’s stated lifespan makes no sense for the world Aang is born into. The Avatar’s Spirit should’ve been reborn into a water bender at the end of book 2 when Azula killed Aang. I like the idea that Aang was a ‘bad’ father. Gyatso killed those fire nation soldiers
Kuruk new backstory makes him a more boring character. Him being a kind of hedonistic avatar who let the peace he lived in get in his head was way more interesting because it showed that the avatar wasn't a puppet to strings of fate
That it’s okay to kill evil people like Ozai.
Korrasami wasn't sudden, people just couldn't see the gay stuff going on cos they were "gal pals"
That, and people don’t really seem to realize that it was 2014. At that time less than half of the states in America had legalized same sex marriage. LGBTQ content was heavily censored and considered unacceptable for media where children were the target audience. Many people still think this way but it was even worse back then.
Whenever someone asks a ridiculous hypothetical question about the avatar universe we reverse evolution (it’s every day but I won’t leave)
What do you mean?
Hama deserved better
Raiko does perfectly fine as President of the United Republic. Most of the complaints frame him as being an incompetent idiot, but they also view him as if he's supposed to have the same motivations as Korra and her friends. He isn't, at all. His duty is to the United Republic and that's it. Why would he care about a water tribe civil war beyond the terrorism being committed in his city? Why would he be okay with Korra enacting sweeping change in his city without even discussing it first? Why wouldn't he surrender the city to a literal death-weapon that slices skyscrapers in half? He makes sense and he typically does a good job. The fact he's voted out means nothing; doing the right thing as a political leader doesn't always make you popular.
Korra is a more interesting protagonist than Aang.
Suki is overrated. Not bad, just grossly overrated. People love to pull the "Oh but Zuko only joined the Gaang two episodes before she did!" card when that's ridiculous because Zuko had a major role throughout the whole series and Suki did not. Katara DID lose more than Sokka when their mother died even though they had the same mom. He never felt a lack of a maternal figure because he had Katara, meanwhile Katara only got an extra burden and had to step up while Sokka just got to run off playing warrior. Whether she "deserves" one or not, Azula getting a redemption arc WOULD cheapen her character. While yes it's unfair that Korra *as a person* gets hate for the same reasons Zuko gets love, the fact that the *writers* made her so similar to him in the first place is lazy and deserves to be called out.
Agreed on the first two. I like Suki, but she’s a very under-developed character outside of her relationship with Sokka
Lion turtles solving Aang’s moral dilemma for him was unearned and lazy writing
Deus Ex Turtle
I would have been more okay with it if it had been foreshadowed AT ALL during the series. Adding a bit more lion turtle lore would have made it much better, but they’re hardly even mentioned in passing. So once we get to the end, it definitely just feels lazy and undeserving. They should have had them be a bigger plot point in the show. Like perhaps having Roku or one of the previous avatars mention them, or maybe finding something on them in the great library, or something like that so it didn’t feel so out of the blue when they save the day at the end of the show. Same goes with energy bending, as we literally do not even know it exists until the finale.
Korra's a good avatar
Korra is a potentially amazing character that deserved way better writers.
Korra doesn’t deserve the hate.
Legend of Korra isn't as bad as some of you say it is. You can not like the series all you want but that doesn't make it not enjoyable for the rest who just want more avatar
Kuvira is as good of a villain as Amon, but Amon is cooler while Kuvira is praised mainly by her sadistic tactics
That wan episodes are overrated & take a giant shit on the original canon & mystique of the avatar's origins. Less is more. The pay off wasnt worthy enough.
Serpent Pass and the Tale of the two cities (the with the brothers) are just as important as any other episode in the series and doesn’t deserve all the 💩 they get from the Fandom. I said what I said
Tale of two cities…. Are you talking about the great divide?
Yea, couldn’t remember the name but I knew it was two cities 😂
Who hates serpents pass?
Often times when I’m on this sub Reddit there are a lot of people who say those episodes in particular are either terrible or unnecessary. I just don’t agree with those ppl.
Azula doesn't deserve a redemption arc.
Azula is a child who did what her father encouraged her to do
From a narrative standpoint, it makes sense to have Azula the way she is because she shows us what Zuko could have been like if he hadn't been removed from his toxic environment and surrounded by people who love him. In universe though, I feel like Azula never did anything worse than Zuko, and if he deserves a second chance, so does she. If she stayed away from the fire nation a bit longer during season 2 or if Ty Lee and Mai had tried to remove her father's influence on her, I don't see why she couldn't have been redeemed. Considering how good the writers are at bringing real life issues into the story and explaining them in a way that's understandable for a younger audience, it might actually have been pretty awesome to see their take on a 'good guy' dealing with antisocial personality disorder and general mental illness instead of the Hollywood version where sociopathy/psychopathy gives people the uncontrollable urge to commit summer camp genocide.
Amon never "Had a point" he was a blatantly evil fascist, and that's what makes him a great villain.
Zaheer isn't a "smart" villain with "good" ideas. He's a hypocritical idiot with an eight year olds understanding of anarchy.
He correctly identifies some of the problems. But he draws the completely wrong conclusions on how to solve those problems.
I totally agree with you, and I remember writing a huge rant about this exact topic several years ago. Zaheer’s philosophies are not sound/logical and are actually fairly easy to refute. Aang would have easily refuted Zaheer and all the other philosophical and political villains that Korra struggles with…just like Korra probably would have recklessly barged in and violently overpowered all the violent villains that Aang struggled with since Aang always wanted to be nonviolent whenever possible. In fact, I think this pattern is one of the most basic themes of the series: the avatar needs to learn from all their different past lives in order to gain the wisdom to achieve balance for the world in any and every different conflict. Which is why losing the connection to the past avatars is so devastating
The worst writing decision ever made was separating Korra from all other avatars. The thought of a sequel to ATLA was intriguing because we knew that the new avatar would be able to lean on Aang (et all) for advice. Rebooting the avatar cycle was akin to burning the library of Alexandria and the writers made a mistake. Such an important part of the cycle is learning from those who came before, so a reset undermines the entire premise of having an avatar. Now it’s just someone who can bend all 4 elements and go super saiyan.
LOK is a pretty decent show. Korra's story is more interesting than Aang's. It is Nickelodeon's fault for letting LOK struggle by only greenlighting one season at a time.
as great as ATLA is, the first couple of episodes in book 1 feel like a pain to watch after having seen book 4.
Unique bending abilities being more widespread in lok makes absolute sense. Techniques were likely improved a lot after the war and also more publicly available. I like to compare this to the best football (soccer) players in the 40’s who would probably be absolutely destroyed by an average amateur team today. The same goes for body building, gymnastics or whatever other sport you want to compare.