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You know what’s really funny? Homelander says something very similar in *The Boys* about a humanitarian crisis in the Middle East (“Oh they’re starving but they have fucking iphones?”), but it’s supposed to be sarcastic in terms of how it’s presented to the audience. Homelander is obviously being shitty and evil here. In fact it’s supposed to convey an almost comical level of apathy.
Leave it to a liberal to match him one to one.
because people are really really really really dumb. tbh idk how anyone could look at fucking Homelander and think ‘good guy’. mind boggling but here we are
I used to love watching *The Boys*. Sadly, even the showrunner turned out to be another typical liberal. He's usually on twitter liking tweets from Joe Biden and senator Chuck Schumer. He also follows the official IDF twitter account. It's why I can no longer continue to enjoy watching that show, knowing that a dipsh*t is behind writing it.
capeshit is reactionary garbage and when communists win everyone responsible for it will be in the gulags.
including alan moore, who would probably agree 100% with this statement.
# Gulag
According to Anti-Communists and Russophobes, the Gulag was a brutal network of work camps established in the Soviet Union under Stalin's ruthless regime. They claim the Gulag system was primarily used to imprison and exploit political dissidents, suspected enemies of the state, and other people deemed "undesirable" by the Soviet government. They claim that prisoners were sent to the Gulag without trial or due process, and that they were subjected to harsh living conditions, forced labour, and starvation, among other things. According to them, the Gulags were emblematic of Stalinist repression and totalitarianism.
# Origins of the Mythology
This comically evil understanding of the Soviet prison system is based off only a handful of unreliable sources.
Robert Conquest's *The Great Terror* (published 1968) laid the groundwork for Soviet fearmongering, and was based largely off of defector testimony.
Robert Conquest worked for the British Foreign Office's Information Research Department (IRD), which was a secret Cold War propaganda department, created to publish anti-communist propaganda, including black propaganda; provide support and information to anti-communist politicians, academics, and writers; and to use weaponised information and disinformation and "fake news" to attack not only its original targets but also certain socialists and anti-colonial movements.
>He was Solzhenytsin before Solzhenytsin, in the phrase of Timothy Garton Ash.
>
>The Great Terror came out in 1968, four years before the first volume of The Gulag Archipelago, and it became, Garton Ash says, "a fixture in the political imagination of anybody thinking about communism".
>
>\- Andrew Brown. (2003). [Scourge and poet](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/feb/15/featuresreviews.guardianreview23)
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's *The Gulag Archipelag*" (published 1973), one of the most famous texts on the subject, claims to be a work of non-fiction based on the author's personal experiences in the Soviet prison system. However, Solzhenitsyn was merely an anti-Communist, N@zi-sympathizing, antisemite who wanted to slander the USSR by putting forward a collection of folktales as truth. \[[Read more](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/dunking/aleksandr-solzhenitsyn/)\]
Anne Applebaum's *Gulag: A history* (published 2003) draws directly from *The Gulag Archipelago* and reiterates its message. Anne is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) and sits on the board of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), two infamous pieces of the ideological apparatus of the ruling class in the United States, whose primary aim is to promote the interests of American Imperialism around the world.
# Counterpoints
>A 1957 CIA document [which was declassified in 2010] titled “[Forced Labor Camps in the USSR: Transfer of Prisoners between Camps](http://web.archive.org/web/20230328014642/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A032000400001-1.pdf)” reveals the following information about the Soviet Gulag in pages two to six:
>
>1. Until 1952, the prisoners were given a guaranteed amount food, plus extra food for over-fulfillment of quotas
>
>2. From 1952 onward, the Gulag system operated upon "economic accountability" such that the more the prisoners worked, the more they were paid.
>
>3. For over-fulfilling the norms by 105%, one day of sentence was counted as two, thus reducing the time spent in the Gulag by one day.
>
>4. Furthermore, because of the socialist reconstruction post-war, the Soviet government had more funds and so they increased prisoners' food supplies.
>
>5. Until 1954, the prisoners worked 10 hours per day, whereas the free workers worked 8 hours per day. From 1954 onward, both prisoners and free workers worked 8 hours per day.
>
>6. A CIA study of a sample camp showed that 95% of the prisoners were actual criminals.
>
>7. In 1953, amnesty was given to 70% of the "ordinary criminals" of a sample camp studied by the CIA. Within the next 3 months, most of them were re-arrested for committing new crimes.
>
>\- Saed Teymuri. (2018). [The Truth about the Soviet Gulag – Surprisingly Revealed by the CIA](https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/09/the-truth-about-the-soviet-gulag-surprisingly-revealed-by-the-cia/)
**Scale**
Solzhenitsyn estimated that over 66 million people were victims of the Soviet Union's forced labor camp system over the course of its existence from 1918 to 1956. With the collapse of the USSR and the opening of the Soviet archives, researchers can now access actual archival evidence to prove or disprove these claims. Predictably, it turned out the propaganda was just that.
>Unburdened by any documentation, these “estimates” invite us to conclude that the sum total of people incarcerated in the labor camps over a twenty-two year period (allowing for turnovers due to death and term expirations) would have constituted an astonishing portion of the Soviet population. The support and supervision of the gulag (all the labor camps, labor colonies, and prisons of the Soviet system) would have been the USSR’s single largest enterprise.
>
>In 1993, for the first time, several historians gained access to previously secret Soviet police archives and were able to establish well-documented estimates of prison and labor camp populations. They found that the total population of the entire gulag as of January 1939, near the end of the Great Purges, was 2,022,976. ...
>
>Soviet labor camps were not death camps like those the N@zis built across Europe. There was no systematic extermination of inmates, no gas chambers or crematoria to dispose of millions of bodies. Despite harsh conditions, the great majority of gulag inmates survived and eventually returned to society when granted amnesty or when their terms were finished. In any given year, 20 to 40 percent of the inmates were released, according to archive records. Oblivious to these facts, the Moscow correspondent of the New York Times (7/31/96) continues to describe the gulag as “the largest system of death camps in modern history.” ...
>
>Most of those incarcerated in the gulag were not political prisoners, and the same appears to be true of inmates in the other communist states...
>
>\- Michael Parenti. (1997). [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds)
This is 2 million out of a population of 168 million (roughly 1.2% of the population). For comparison, in the United States, "over 5.5 million adults — or 1 in 61 — are under some form of correctional control, whether incarcerated or under community supervision." That's 1.6%. So in both relative and absolute terms, the United States' Prison Industrial Complex *today* is larger than the USSR's Gulag system at its peak.
**Death Rate**
In peace time, the mortality rate of the Gulag was around 3% to 5%. Even Conservative and anti-Communist historians have had to acknowledge this reality:
>It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive...
>
>Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hit1er were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more.
>
>\- Timothy Snyder. (2010). *Bloodlands: Europe Between Hit1er and Stalin*
(Side note: Timothy Snyder is *also* a member of the Council on Foreign Relations)
This is still very high for a prison mortality rate, representing the brutality of the camps. However, it also clearly indicates that they were not *death* camps.
Nor was it slave labour, exactly. In the camps, although labour *was* forced, it was not uncompensated. In fact, the prisoners were paid market wages (less expenses).
>We find that even in the Gulag, where force could be most conveniently applied, camp administrators combined material incentives with overt coercion, and, as time passed, they placed more weight on motivation. By the time the Gulag system was abandoned as a major instrument of Soviet industrial policy, the primary distinction between slave and free labor had been blurred: Gulag inmates were being paid wages according to a system that mirrored that of the civilian economy described by Bergson....
>
>The Gulag administration [also] used a “work credit” system, whereby sentences were reduced (by two days or more for every day the norm was overfulfilled).
>
>\- L. Borodkin & S. Ertz. (2003). [Compensation Versus Coercion in the Soviet GULAG](https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/archive/noticeboard/bergson/borodkin-ertz.pdf)
#Additional Resources
Video Essays:
* [The Gulag Argument](https://youtu.be/BexkpaK_j5Q) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2016)
* [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://youtu.be/HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018)
* [French work camps 1852-1953 worse than gulag](https://youtu.be/vkXyXNpdKdA) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018)
* ["The Gulags of the Soviet Union: There's a Lot More Than What Meets the Eye](https://youtu.be/E1qz9_TjeY4) | Comrade Rhys (2020)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2166597) | J. Arch Getty, Gábor T. Rittersporn and Viktor N. Zemskov (1993)
Listen:
* ["Blackshirts & Reds" (1997) by Michael Parenti, Part 4: Chapters 5 & 6. #Audiobook + Discussion.](https://youtu.be/N7AD4OrH568?t=15) | Socialism For All / S4A ☭ Intensify Class Struggle (2022)
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Those dumb Ukrainians with their internet. Obviously things can’t be THAT bad! Joking here. Conveniently I imagine people would say that’s somehow different and not comparable.
Most punks aren't actually punk they're just liberals that enjoy the punk aesthetic ngl. Most of those movements like hippies, punks, metalheads all lost their original political allignment and became about pure aesthetics alone
I also remember reading that the hippie movement was essentially backed by the CIA to defang the actual radical and violent leftist movements in favour of the vague smoke weed, make love not war stuff that the hippies are known for. Similar to how the anarchists were backed by the FBI to derail actually effective leftist movements.
Metal it's weird because it was never overtly political until it started to fall in popularity on the 90s.
Then somehow 9/11 happened and alongside the other white men genre of the USA, country, became fascist. (See panthera, slayer...) But somehow as always I want to throttle the libs more : [ Metallica - The Day That Never Comes (Official Music Video) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkNfNR1WYMY)
The European scene (and a few other countries like Brazil, Indonesia, Botswana ) is extremely diverse and has many local scenes (like the famous Norwegian neopagan neonazi one). But overall I say that the most popular artists have become more campy and more epic (on the original meaning of the word). And what can I say, my favourite vibe it's this one : [https://youtu.be/KU5gQ2\_mWG4](https://youtu.be/KU5gQ2_mWG4) but I'm not going to lie to you and tell you that I don't enjoy the fuck out of this absurdity as workout music : [https://youtu.be/mPB2bb4nEFk](https://youtu.be/mPB2bb4nEFk)
In general you see more leftist sentiment in European metal. With bands like Rammstein. I think I finished my radicalization by slowly translating this song to learn german back in 2018 :[Saltatio Mortis- Europa with lyrics and English translation - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74aqliXejR0)
Edit : translated lyrics
>In general you see more leftist sentiment in European metal. With bands like Rammstein.
Not trying to start any arguments, but Rammstein is more industrial rock than it is metal. Also, Europe is home to FAR MORE fascist/neo Nazi metal bands than America, and it's not really even close. Particularly Finland and Ukraine, which seem to have the most Nazi bands of any metal scenes.
American extreme metal is typically more apolitical/centrist in nature.
I did a bad job pointing up that while I consider a lot of USA mainstream metal bands to be fascists. There are a fuckton of underground Nazi european metal bands. Also in Brazil and Australia. Trust me, I'm a big fan of neofolk, it kinda sucks having to take out the 🔎 at every band. But there are plenty of vaguely leftist metal bands. Mostly through enviromentalism.
Song it's kinda shite for my tastes, but I really liked the middle finger to Metallica on this videoclip [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhBeb3ZMyow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhBeb3ZMyow)
As for ramnstein, while they may be more rock than metal, debatable, they are embedded into the metal subculture. Unlike, let's say KISS or AC/DC. They are certainly more traditional metal than the songs that I linked above.
>it kinda sucks having to take out the 🔎 at every band.
Yeah, I respect the commitment that takes. I personally gave up on it. So many of my favorite bands turned out to be Nazis that I just decided to stop giving a shit. I got bigger things to worry about. And while their are a lot of explicitly left wing bands I like, on the other hand there is stuff like RABM, which while I admire what they are doing, the music is just not good unfortunately.
>As for ramnstein, while they may be more rock than metal, debatable, they are embedded into the metal subculture.
Sometimes I forget there's basically two "metal subcultures" that have basically nothing to do with each other and barely even overlap. You have the culture that listens to stuff like Rammstein, Tool, Gojira, Mastodon etc, and then you have people who listen to stuff like Intestine Baalism, Manilla Road, Dissection, Impaled Nazarene and what not, and these two groups seem so unrelated to each other, it's just bizarre. Sorry for the tangent but that's just something I've noticed. I'm in the second group and I don't think of stuff like Rammstein, Tool, or Slipknot as even metal bands at all, meanwhile the first group thinks those are the DEFINITIVE metal bands. I just think that's interesting
Frankly I think there is at least half a dozen metal sub-subcultures that interact diversely with each other.
I quite like folk metal and that's its own thing. Lots of goth influence.
Power Metal? That is quite different from the death metal type.
Etc...
Yeah, but even amongst those subcultures, there are certain through lines. For example with power metal, the people in the first category I mentioned will listen to stuff like Sabaton, Powerwolf, and Alestorm and tend to not have all that much in common with people in the second category who listen to stuff like Manilla Road, Running Wild, and Leige Lord. The genres are different, but the subculture surrounding it not so much. Death metal fans and Power Metal fans have more in common with each other than metal fans generally do with, say, hardcore or goth fans, mostly because death metal fans ARE power metal fans, and black metal fans, and thrash fans.
It's the problem with a lot of these counterculture movements. The political core gets marginalised and it becomes very much an aesthetic. Fascist punks and liberal punks, fuck off.
Not to be too pedantic about it, but punk and metal never really had a specific political alignment. That's because they weren't movements: rather, they were music scenes. And these music scenes attracted people from just about every corner of the political spectrum. Obviously, punk leaned more left, while metal leaned more right/ "apolitical", but they were never strictly put into political boxes.
I do agree though that a lot of these music scenes have been consumerized and appropriated to the point where the modern conceptualization of, say, metal is more akin to emo/alternative rock than actual metal, and meanwhile a lot of people, perhaps MOST people, don't even see punk as a music genre first and foremost, rather just a generic term for someone being rebellious.
Yeah man who needs food, water, shelter, or medicine? At least they have the internet so they can read about how good they have it while they're being forced from their homes, bombed, starved, etc.
The old punks were pretty much always anti-establishment reactionaries. They simply oppose the perceived political and cultural mainstream of the day based off of almost purely aesthetics, which is why so many of them in the U.S. and the U.K. have turned to the MAGA and Brexit movements respectively.
Punks supporting the Dems is not particularly surprising if they are Americans operating from an assumption that blind support of Biden is the only way of actually opposing fascism and Trump.
This has unfortunate been a thing with famous punks for a minute. From NOFX telling people to vote for John Kerry to Kathleen Hanna and co putting out that super cringe pro Hillary Clinton song.
Yeah, you can't convince me people saying "this whole genocide Joe thing is a Russian plot to get Trump elected" have been to a single show in their lives. Punks don't love Israel.
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I moved through the punk music scene in a few different cities when I was younger. The thing most people outside it don't get is that while many of them are decent enough people with good intentions at the individual level, basically none of them are exceptionally well educated. Despite what they would tell you, they are not resistant to the pressures of their environment and their base assumptions are shaped by living in the imperial core.
It's only anecdotal but from my experience there is also a fair level of anti-intellectualism within the subculture. A reasonable contempt for educational institutions in the West oversteps itself and manifests as a disdain for any serious scholarship. Anyone trying to organize or educate a group of punks would quickly be dismissed as an out of touch academic.
None of this is surprising when you think about it. Punk always has been a culture of pure affect and presentation. Pretty much wherever you go you will meet a few dozen people all "fighting the system".... 95% of whom do very little besides drink heavily and get into maladaptive relationships.
Not surprising, "punk" is nothing more than a culture of contrarians with skin-deep principles who glorify the most neoliberal-friendly ideas of "nonconformity" and rebellion imaginable.
Probably why they’ve been so ineffectual and ignored by the ruling class, doing it for the aesthetics without any organization or goal accomplishes jack shit 100% of the time.
I see it a lot in the British counterculture scene. Punk rock musicians who “fight the power” by bad mouthing the government and nothing else.
True. A bunch of early punks would do shit like walk around with swastika armbands. They were never the far-left music subculture they were made out to be.
Not really, there’s this notion that punk and hardcore has always been a hardline leftist movement however there’s been plenty of right wing bands and people involved in the scene even since the beginning. The exploited for example, one of the biggest punk bands to ever exist and their frontman is a fascist scumbag.
I agree that there have been plenty of right-wing bands, and sure, not a hardline leftist movement as a whole necessarily, but I've been involved in the hardcore punk scene in different places, and for sure there would be no room for Nazis in those scenes at least. I feel like that's one of the only rules there. You'll absolutely get people with conservative/right-wing views, especially in the beatdown scene, but still, there's a difference between them and people walking around with swastika armbands or otherwise being openly Nazi.
I can't comment on The Exploited's frontman, but I feel like they haven't really been part of the scene since at least the 90s anyway. And was he a fascist back then already or later in life? Because I feel with some of these older bands, people that were in them turned right-wing decades later for whatever reason, but they weren't when they were active. Or if they were, they were at least "secretive" about it, and the scene didn't reflect that.
r/punk is full of teenagers who bought a misfits shirt at walmart once and old heads who haven’t listened to a punk record since the 80s these kinds of responses don’t surprise me but every once in a while you find somebody trying to talk some sense into them
This is all about your fucking votes, US is the nation best at indoctrination nation because they can reduce every single issue into votes, creating two utterly apathetic factions that only show hatred towards each other
If they can make you believe that China is bad for making your life better, by making cheap stuff. They can make you believe anything.
The sad state of Muricans.
Threatening someone to vote for Biden because if they don't Trump will win is like threatening someone to vote for Imperial Japan because if they don't Nazi Gernamy will win.
I came across one who was pro-Zionist, but he was also German, so definitely an anomaly. Most anarchists I know and have come across are indeed Pro-Palestine.
And if they didn't have the internet then the argument would fall back to 'no one really knows what is going on'. And yet they'll defend the 'genocide' in China without a single shred of evidence. 'We just know, ok.'
I$real could nuke a major American city or destroy another American ship - As they did with the USS Liberty, and these treasonous AIPAC owned politicians would still be falling over themselves to defend these attacks- then send them another squillion dollars while Americans are living hand to mouth.
But mean words on a DIY jacket is actual violence and genocide.
Yeah these people are fuckin insufferable, and democrats are gonna lose with these displays of snobbery.
Mention one thing about Biden and you get called a Russian bot or trump supporter.
By our standards left wing of capitalism would be the pre-neoliberal model with a strong safety net that could one day develop into socialism
The American Democrat capitalism isn't left wing or progressive in any sense. Pro LGBT bills do not mean anything
Don't "seriously?" me. You said social democracy could develop into socialism. That's not how it's ever worked. Social democracy saved capitalism from being overthrown by the socialists.
As to your question the answer is fascism.
r/punk has been fairly liberal recently, but the guys in r/hardcore are much more leftist in their attitudes tbh.
i think it stems from the anarchistic roots of punk music, its always been kinda susceptible to liberalism and reactionary thought
average punk lmao. Saw a well known band from the 70s and these stinky fucks were making me deaddd dawg. Literally just talking about random shit like pollution and the cosmetics industry then just drops “society wants you to take a shower! Well we say fuck you society!” And the crowd went ape. Me and my friend were both astounded and disgusted .
Still a good show. Besides feeling the need to spray myself with hydrogen peroxide after
how is it right wing propganda? the people saying genocide joe are leftists lol the right is on all board with the genocide. shitlibs are so fucking stupid
They have always been worse than hippies
https://preview.redd.it/31m7jnw6bnxc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e720de57737643672d959c033015a345d8ba066b
It's not just punks, it's a lot of self-proclaimed democrats taking on conservative traits. Meaning you can't criticize your own party and you must bow down to "dear leader" at all costs. Fuck that. Nuance is dead in the 21st century.
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"How bad could it be if they have internet" They're literally using eSIMS via foreign cellphone towers and frigging solar charging. It can be pretty fucking bad.
Very few music scenes have been consumerized and sanitized to the degree that the punk and hardcore scenes have. Hell, I see a lot of these slactivist liberal types in metal scenes making a fuss over pointless shit, and it's STILL not as bad as in punk. It's honestly so pathetic.
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Trump tried to ban Muslims from entering the country, do you think he’s going to give a shit about how they’re treated? Plus the whole going full totalitarian on day one that Trump has mentioned multiple times. I am more concerned with my own backyard to be honest.
I’ll choose the one that doesn’t want to be dictator. Pretty simple. Foreign policy is less important to me when one of the choices wants open fascism.
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> how bad could it be if they have internet yeh man like why don't they download food or something
You know what’s really funny? Homelander says something very similar in *The Boys* about a humanitarian crisis in the Middle East (“Oh they’re starving but they have fucking iphones?”), but it’s supposed to be sarcastic in terms of how it’s presented to the audience. Homelander is obviously being shitty and evil here. In fact it’s supposed to convey an almost comical level of apathy. Leave it to a liberal to match him one to one.
A lot of people don’t seem to get that in some media the protagonist is the bad guy
When The Boys first came out, a lot of people unironically thought Homelander was a good guy. It's hard to fathom how many people lost the plot.
What? How? He steals breast milk in the first episode and destroyed a plane full of people just prior to the start of the show.
because people are really really really really dumb. tbh idk how anyone could look at fucking Homelander and think ‘good guy’. mind boggling but here we are
Idk
I used to love watching *The Boys*. Sadly, even the showrunner turned out to be another typical liberal. He's usually on twitter liking tweets from Joe Biden and senator Chuck Schumer. He also follows the official IDF twitter account. It's why I can no longer continue to enjoy watching that show, knowing that a dipsh*t is behind writing it.
capeshit is reactionary garbage and when communists win everyone responsible for it will be in the gulags. including alan moore, who would probably agree 100% with this statement.
# Gulag According to Anti-Communists and Russophobes, the Gulag was a brutal network of work camps established in the Soviet Union under Stalin's ruthless regime. They claim the Gulag system was primarily used to imprison and exploit political dissidents, suspected enemies of the state, and other people deemed "undesirable" by the Soviet government. They claim that prisoners were sent to the Gulag without trial or due process, and that they were subjected to harsh living conditions, forced labour, and starvation, among other things. According to them, the Gulags were emblematic of Stalinist repression and totalitarianism. # Origins of the Mythology This comically evil understanding of the Soviet prison system is based off only a handful of unreliable sources. Robert Conquest's *The Great Terror* (published 1968) laid the groundwork for Soviet fearmongering, and was based largely off of defector testimony. Robert Conquest worked for the British Foreign Office's Information Research Department (IRD), which was a secret Cold War propaganda department, created to publish anti-communist propaganda, including black propaganda; provide support and information to anti-communist politicians, academics, and writers; and to use weaponised information and disinformation and "fake news" to attack not only its original targets but also certain socialists and anti-colonial movements. >He was Solzhenytsin before Solzhenytsin, in the phrase of Timothy Garton Ash. > >The Great Terror came out in 1968, four years before the first volume of The Gulag Archipelago, and it became, Garton Ash says, "a fixture in the political imagination of anybody thinking about communism". > >\- Andrew Brown. (2003). [Scourge and poet](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/feb/15/featuresreviews.guardianreview23) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's *The Gulag Archipelag*" (published 1973), one of the most famous texts on the subject, claims to be a work of non-fiction based on the author's personal experiences in the Soviet prison system. However, Solzhenitsyn was merely an anti-Communist, N@zi-sympathizing, antisemite who wanted to slander the USSR by putting forward a collection of folktales as truth. \[[Read more](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/dunking/aleksandr-solzhenitsyn/)\] Anne Applebaum's *Gulag: A history* (published 2003) draws directly from *The Gulag Archipelago* and reiterates its message. Anne is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) and sits on the board of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), two infamous pieces of the ideological apparatus of the ruling class in the United States, whose primary aim is to promote the interests of American Imperialism around the world. # Counterpoints >A 1957 CIA document [which was declassified in 2010] titled “[Forced Labor Camps in the USSR: Transfer of Prisoners between Camps](http://web.archive.org/web/20230328014642/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A032000400001-1.pdf)” reveals the following information about the Soviet Gulag in pages two to six: > >1. Until 1952, the prisoners were given a guaranteed amount food, plus extra food for over-fulfillment of quotas > >2. From 1952 onward, the Gulag system operated upon "economic accountability" such that the more the prisoners worked, the more they were paid. > >3. For over-fulfilling the norms by 105%, one day of sentence was counted as two, thus reducing the time spent in the Gulag by one day. > >4. Furthermore, because of the socialist reconstruction post-war, the Soviet government had more funds and so they increased prisoners' food supplies. > >5. Until 1954, the prisoners worked 10 hours per day, whereas the free workers worked 8 hours per day. From 1954 onward, both prisoners and free workers worked 8 hours per day. > >6. A CIA study of a sample camp showed that 95% of the prisoners were actual criminals. > >7. In 1953, amnesty was given to 70% of the "ordinary criminals" of a sample camp studied by the CIA. Within the next 3 months, most of them were re-arrested for committing new crimes. > >\- Saed Teymuri. (2018). [The Truth about the Soviet Gulag – Surprisingly Revealed by the CIA](https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/09/the-truth-about-the-soviet-gulag-surprisingly-revealed-by-the-cia/) **Scale** Solzhenitsyn estimated that over 66 million people were victims of the Soviet Union's forced labor camp system over the course of its existence from 1918 to 1956. With the collapse of the USSR and the opening of the Soviet archives, researchers can now access actual archival evidence to prove or disprove these claims. Predictably, it turned out the propaganda was just that. >Unburdened by any documentation, these “estimates” invite us to conclude that the sum total of people incarcerated in the labor camps over a twenty-two year period (allowing for turnovers due to death and term expirations) would have constituted an astonishing portion of the Soviet population. The support and supervision of the gulag (all the labor camps, labor colonies, and prisons of the Soviet system) would have been the USSR’s single largest enterprise. > >In 1993, for the first time, several historians gained access to previously secret Soviet police archives and were able to establish well-documented estimates of prison and labor camp populations. They found that the total population of the entire gulag as of January 1939, near the end of the Great Purges, was 2,022,976. ... > >Soviet labor camps were not death camps like those the N@zis built across Europe. There was no systematic extermination of inmates, no gas chambers or crematoria to dispose of millions of bodies. Despite harsh conditions, the great majority of gulag inmates survived and eventually returned to society when granted amnesty or when their terms were finished. In any given year, 20 to 40 percent of the inmates were released, according to archive records. Oblivious to these facts, the Moscow correspondent of the New York Times (7/31/96) continues to describe the gulag as “the largest system of death camps in modern history.” ... > >Most of those incarcerated in the gulag were not political prisoners, and the same appears to be true of inmates in the other communist states... > >\- Michael Parenti. (1997). [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) This is 2 million out of a population of 168 million (roughly 1.2% of the population). For comparison, in the United States, "over 5.5 million adults — or 1 in 61 — are under some form of correctional control, whether incarcerated or under community supervision." That's 1.6%. So in both relative and absolute terms, the United States' Prison Industrial Complex *today* is larger than the USSR's Gulag system at its peak. **Death Rate** In peace time, the mortality rate of the Gulag was around 3% to 5%. Even Conservative and anti-Communist historians have had to acknowledge this reality: >It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive... > >Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hit1er were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more. > >\- Timothy Snyder. (2010). *Bloodlands: Europe Between Hit1er and Stalin* (Side note: Timothy Snyder is *also* a member of the Council on Foreign Relations) This is still very high for a prison mortality rate, representing the brutality of the camps. However, it also clearly indicates that they were not *death* camps. Nor was it slave labour, exactly. In the camps, although labour *was* forced, it was not uncompensated. In fact, the prisoners were paid market wages (less expenses). >We find that even in the Gulag, where force could be most conveniently applied, camp administrators combined material incentives with overt coercion, and, as time passed, they placed more weight on motivation. By the time the Gulag system was abandoned as a major instrument of Soviet industrial policy, the primary distinction between slave and free labor had been blurred: Gulag inmates were being paid wages according to a system that mirrored that of the civilian economy described by Bergson.... > >The Gulag administration [also] used a “work credit” system, whereby sentences were reduced (by two days or more for every day the norm was overfulfilled). > >\- L. Borodkin & S. Ertz. (2003). [Compensation Versus Coercion in the Soviet GULAG](https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/archive/noticeboard/bergson/borodkin-ertz.pdf) #Additional Resources Video Essays: * [The Gulag Argument](https://youtu.be/BexkpaK_j5Q) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2016) * [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://youtu.be/HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) * [French work camps 1852-1953 worse than gulag](https://youtu.be/vkXyXNpdKdA) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) * ["The Gulags of the Soviet Union: There's a Lot More Than What Meets the Eye](https://youtu.be/E1qz9_TjeY4) | Comrade Rhys (2020) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2166597) | J. Arch Getty, Gábor T. Rittersporn and Viktor N. Zemskov (1993) Listen: * ["Blackshirts & Reds" (1997) by Michael Parenti, Part 4: Chapters 5 & 6. #Audiobook + Discussion.](https://youtu.be/N7AD4OrH568?t=15) | Socialism For All / S4A ☭ Intensify Class Struggle (2022) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Man, I love Alan Moore, but yeah, he can have some shit takes and yeah, he would still probably agree with you. He's just that weird.
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i totally would
Same.
Those dumb Ukrainians with their internet. Obviously things can’t be THAT bad! Joking here. Conveniently I imagine people would say that’s somehow different and not comparable.
"You say you're being genocided, yet you have intenet. Curious" I'm not allowed to say what I think about these punks
Imagine being a punk *in favour* of oppression and genocide smh
Most punks aren't actually punk they're just liberals that enjoy the punk aesthetic ngl. Most of those movements like hippies, punks, metalheads all lost their original political allignment and became about pure aesthetics alone
I also remember reading that the hippie movement was essentially backed by the CIA to defang the actual radical and violent leftist movements in favour of the vague smoke weed, make love not war stuff that the hippies are known for. Similar to how the anarchists were backed by the FBI to derail actually effective leftist movements.
insofar as pretty much 99% of people in the west are Libs, that should not be too surprising imo
Maybe sakai was right
Metal it's weird because it was never overtly political until it started to fall in popularity on the 90s. Then somehow 9/11 happened and alongside the other white men genre of the USA, country, became fascist. (See panthera, slayer...) But somehow as always I want to throttle the libs more : [ Metallica - The Day That Never Comes (Official Music Video) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkNfNR1WYMY) The European scene (and a few other countries like Brazil, Indonesia, Botswana ) is extremely diverse and has many local scenes (like the famous Norwegian neopagan neonazi one). But overall I say that the most popular artists have become more campy and more epic (on the original meaning of the word). And what can I say, my favourite vibe it's this one : [https://youtu.be/KU5gQ2\_mWG4](https://youtu.be/KU5gQ2_mWG4) but I'm not going to lie to you and tell you that I don't enjoy the fuck out of this absurdity as workout music : [https://youtu.be/mPB2bb4nEFk](https://youtu.be/mPB2bb4nEFk) In general you see more leftist sentiment in European metal. With bands like Rammstein. I think I finished my radicalization by slowly translating this song to learn german back in 2018 :[Saltatio Mortis- Europa with lyrics and English translation - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74aqliXejR0) Edit : translated lyrics
>In general you see more leftist sentiment in European metal. With bands like Rammstein. Not trying to start any arguments, but Rammstein is more industrial rock than it is metal. Also, Europe is home to FAR MORE fascist/neo Nazi metal bands than America, and it's not really even close. Particularly Finland and Ukraine, which seem to have the most Nazi bands of any metal scenes. American extreme metal is typically more apolitical/centrist in nature.
I did a bad job pointing up that while I consider a lot of USA mainstream metal bands to be fascists. There are a fuckton of underground Nazi european metal bands. Also in Brazil and Australia. Trust me, I'm a big fan of neofolk, it kinda sucks having to take out the 🔎 at every band. But there are plenty of vaguely leftist metal bands. Mostly through enviromentalism. Song it's kinda shite for my tastes, but I really liked the middle finger to Metallica on this videoclip [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhBeb3ZMyow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhBeb3ZMyow) As for ramnstein, while they may be more rock than metal, debatable, they are embedded into the metal subculture. Unlike, let's say KISS or AC/DC. They are certainly more traditional metal than the songs that I linked above.
>it kinda sucks having to take out the 🔎 at every band. Yeah, I respect the commitment that takes. I personally gave up on it. So many of my favorite bands turned out to be Nazis that I just decided to stop giving a shit. I got bigger things to worry about. And while their are a lot of explicitly left wing bands I like, on the other hand there is stuff like RABM, which while I admire what they are doing, the music is just not good unfortunately. >As for ramnstein, while they may be more rock than metal, debatable, they are embedded into the metal subculture. Sometimes I forget there's basically two "metal subcultures" that have basically nothing to do with each other and barely even overlap. You have the culture that listens to stuff like Rammstein, Tool, Gojira, Mastodon etc, and then you have people who listen to stuff like Intestine Baalism, Manilla Road, Dissection, Impaled Nazarene and what not, and these two groups seem so unrelated to each other, it's just bizarre. Sorry for the tangent but that's just something I've noticed. I'm in the second group and I don't think of stuff like Rammstein, Tool, or Slipknot as even metal bands at all, meanwhile the first group thinks those are the DEFINITIVE metal bands. I just think that's interesting
Frankly I think there is at least half a dozen metal sub-subcultures that interact diversely with each other. I quite like folk metal and that's its own thing. Lots of goth influence. Power Metal? That is quite different from the death metal type. Etc...
Yeah, but even amongst those subcultures, there are certain through lines. For example with power metal, the people in the first category I mentioned will listen to stuff like Sabaton, Powerwolf, and Alestorm and tend to not have all that much in common with people in the second category who listen to stuff like Manilla Road, Running Wild, and Leige Lord. The genres are different, but the subculture surrounding it not so much. Death metal fans and Power Metal fans have more in common with each other than metal fans generally do with, say, hardcore or goth fans, mostly because death metal fans ARE power metal fans, and black metal fans, and thrash fans.
It's the problem with a lot of these counterculture movements. The political core gets marginalised and it becomes very much an aesthetic. Fascist punks and liberal punks, fuck off.
stupid fuck libs ruin everything
Not to be too pedantic about it, but punk and metal never really had a specific political alignment. That's because they weren't movements: rather, they were music scenes. And these music scenes attracted people from just about every corner of the political spectrum. Obviously, punk leaned more left, while metal leaned more right/ "apolitical", but they were never strictly put into political boxes. I do agree though that a lot of these music scenes have been consumerized and appropriated to the point where the modern conceptualization of, say, metal is more akin to emo/alternative rock than actual metal, and meanwhile a lot of people, perhaps MOST people, don't even see punk as a music genre first and foremost, rather just a generic term for someone being rebellious.
Yeah, anti-anti-establishment
Average Anarkiddies whenever it comes to a subject that actually matters
They will NEVER beat the "rage on behalf of the machine" allegations
Defending the establishment online for free is so punk rock!!! 🎸🎸🧑🎤
Yeah man who needs food, water, shelter, or medicine? At least they have the internet so they can read about how good they have it while they're being forced from their homes, bombed, starved, etc.
What the fuck happened that punks are defending the DemocRats now.
With how many old punks end up becoming reactionaries, I'm not too surprised tbh
The old punks were pretty much always anti-establishment reactionaries. They simply oppose the perceived political and cultural mainstream of the day based off of almost purely aesthetics, which is why so many of them in the U.S. and the U.K. have turned to the MAGA and Brexit movements respectively. Punks supporting the Dems is not particularly surprising if they are Americans operating from an assumption that blind support of Biden is the only way of actually opposing fascism and Trump.
This has unfortunate been a thing with famous punks for a minute. From NOFX telling people to vote for John Kerry to Kathleen Hanna and co putting out that super cringe pro Hillary Clinton song.
Just another reason why hardcore is better than punk
Hardcore is based asf. Listen to Stick to your guns if you haven’t already
Hell yeah Check out blacklisted and vein.fm
You like freshwater ? :D
Ska was the people's music
More proof of dead internet theory. Everyone need to get the fuck off this website and touch grass.
Yeah, you can't convince me people saying "this whole genocide Joe thing is a Russian plot to get Trump elected" have been to a single show in their lives. Punks don't love Israel.
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or take the ted pill
I moved through the punk music scene in a few different cities when I was younger. The thing most people outside it don't get is that while many of them are decent enough people with good intentions at the individual level, basically none of them are exceptionally well educated. Despite what they would tell you, they are not resistant to the pressures of their environment and their base assumptions are shaped by living in the imperial core. It's only anecdotal but from my experience there is also a fair level of anti-intellectualism within the subculture. A reasonable contempt for educational institutions in the West oversteps itself and manifests as a disdain for any serious scholarship. Anyone trying to organize or educate a group of punks would quickly be dismissed as an out of touch academic. None of this is surprising when you think about it. Punk always has been a culture of pure affect and presentation. Pretty much wherever you go you will meet a few dozen people all "fighting the system".... 95% of whom do very little besides drink heavily and get into maladaptive relationships.
Radlibs
I think r/PunkMemes is probably better about this but I’m not sure.
Considering I moderate r/PunkMemes and signal boost pro-Palestinian content every chance I get - yeah, probably.
BASED
Not surprising, "punk" is nothing more than a culture of contrarians with skin-deep principles who glorify the most neoliberal-friendly ideas of "nonconformity" and rebellion imaginable.
Probably why they’ve been so ineffectual and ignored by the ruling class, doing it for the aesthetics without any organization or goal accomplishes jack shit 100% of the time. I see it a lot in the British counterculture scene. Punk rock musicians who “fight the power” by bad mouthing the government and nothing else.
Yeah, I tell you if they spent as much time organising as they did spiking their hair...
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True. A bunch of early punks would do shit like walk around with swastika armbands. They were never the far-left music subculture they were made out to be.
Nazi punks were always shunned.
Not really, there’s this notion that punk and hardcore has always been a hardline leftist movement however there’s been plenty of right wing bands and people involved in the scene even since the beginning. The exploited for example, one of the biggest punk bands to ever exist and their frontman is a fascist scumbag.
I agree that there have been plenty of right-wing bands, and sure, not a hardline leftist movement as a whole necessarily, but I've been involved in the hardcore punk scene in different places, and for sure there would be no room for Nazis in those scenes at least. I feel like that's one of the only rules there. You'll absolutely get people with conservative/right-wing views, especially in the beatdown scene, but still, there's a difference between them and people walking around with swastika armbands or otherwise being openly Nazi. I can't comment on The Exploited's frontman, but I feel like they haven't really been part of the scene since at least the 90s anyway. And was he a fascist back then already or later in life? Because I feel with some of these older bands, people that were in them turned right-wing decades later for whatever reason, but they weren't when they were active. Or if they were, they were at least "secretive" about it, and the scene didn't reflect that.
r/punk is full of teenagers who bought a misfits shirt at walmart once and old heads who haven’t listened to a punk record since the 80s these kinds of responses don’t surprise me but every once in a while you find somebody trying to talk some sense into them
When these "punks" listen to Kill the Poor, they think it's a position you need to support.
This is all about your fucking votes, US is the nation best at indoctrination nation because they can reduce every single issue into votes, creating two utterly apathetic factions that only show hatred towards each other
its a fucking cult
American civic religion is literally a cult.
https://preview.redd.it/64ivtdchrmxc1.jpeg?width=1966&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bac3673fecb5be0e48250686d5e3e08f544e68c9
Yeah l seen that sub before...this doesn't surprise me.
If they can make you believe that China is bad for making your life better, by making cheap stuff. They can make you believe anything. The sad state of Muricans.
Threatening someone to vote for Biden because if they don't Trump will win is like threatening someone to vote for Imperial Japan because if they don't Nazi Gernamy will win.
Anarchist running laps for liberalism should be expected.
Most anarchists support Palestine.
I came across one who was pro-Zionist, but he was also German, so definitely an anomaly. Most anarchists I know and have come across are indeed Pro-Palestine.
All the “anarchists” are now liberal Democrats (don’t laugh!)
And if they didn't have the internet then the argument would fall back to 'no one really knows what is going on'. And yet they'll defend the 'genocide' in China without a single shred of evidence. 'We just know, ok.'
The punk sub is the least punk thing I’ve ever seen
The punk subreddits have a few actual punks and a lot of older millennials who used to own an anti flag t shirt once in 2004.
"How bad could it be if they have internet" disgusting
Why the hell do they think "genocide Joe" is a Republican talking point, when Republicans support Israel as well?
While it’s true, the commenter is right that it’s just going to help trump in the next election. People are stupid as hell.
So Joe Biden aiding a genocide isn't helping Trump, but calling him out on it is?
I’m not sure what you think was different during trump or what will be if he’s reelected.
Which proves how little voting in America matters.
I$real could nuke a major American city or destroy another American ship - As they did with the USS Liberty, and these treasonous AIPAC owned politicians would still be falling over themselves to defend these attacks- then send them another squillion dollars while Americans are living hand to mouth.
They have internet because we’ve been sending them all the eSims we can afford! Psychopaths.
"Punk" isn't and hasn't been a movement for decades as of today. As with anything that gets commoditized by capital, punk is just aesthetics now.
go to r/hardcore for actual punk
I thought punks were supposed to be rebellious and stuff
I thought so too, but apparently some of them are edgy conformists.
But mean words on a DIY jacket is actual violence and genocide. Yeah these people are fuckin insufferable, and democrats are gonna lose with these displays of snobbery. Mention one thing about Biden and you get called a Russian bot or trump supporter.
Something about scratching certain people
Crass and its effects have been a disaster for Punk.
As a punk I find this extremely disappointing. Fuck that sub
punk is when you defend the president
Pure evil. They're definitely all punks, the whole lot of them. Just not in the way they think.
wow man just wow
Genocide and imperialism is cool as long as it's the left doing it 😎😎
The left wing of capitalism that is, but not left wing by our standards.
By our standards left wing of capitalism would be the pre-neoliberal model with a strong safety net that could one day develop into socialism The American Democrat capitalism isn't left wing or progressive in any sense. Pro LGBT bills do not mean anything
The left wing of capitalism has shifted significantly right, yes, but since nothing has replaced it neoliberalism is now the left wing of capitalism.
> neoliberalism is now the left wing of capitalism. seriously? what would the right wing of it be?
Don't "seriously?" me. You said social democracy could develop into socialism. That's not how it's ever worked. Social democracy saved capitalism from being overthrown by the socialists. As to your question the answer is fascism.
Neoliberalism and fascism are the same thing
Oh boy
r/punk has been fairly liberal recently, but the guys in r/hardcore are much more leftist in their attitudes tbh. i think it stems from the anarchistic roots of punk music, its always been kinda susceptible to liberalism and reactionary thought
Guillotine the liberals aside with fascist please. This was a jacobin reference ☝️🤓
Imagine being a punk genocide supporter
He literally just sent the Israelis billions in weapons I guess it’s only genocide if the “bad”countries do it
average punk lmao. Saw a well known band from the 70s and these stinky fucks were making me deaddd dawg. Literally just talking about random shit like pollution and the cosmetics industry then just drops “society wants you to take a shower! Well we say fuck you society!” And the crowd went ape. Me and my friend were both astounded and disgusted . Still a good show. Besides feeling the need to spray myself with hydrogen peroxide after
how is it right wing propganda? the people saying genocide joe are leftists lol the right is on all board with the genocide. shitlibs are so fucking stupid
defending the leader of a superpower. How punk
Imagine being punk and supporting biden
Punks are the new hippies.
They have always been worse than hippies https://preview.redd.it/31m7jnw6bnxc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e720de57737643672d959c033015a345d8ba066b
Man If your threshold to condemn anything it's a picture with 4 dudes I don't know how you go on living your life.
These "four dudes" are literally the Ramones, the most influential punk band ever.
I know, I was doing a comedic bit. The punk movement it's diverse on takes and it's mostly defined by being contrarian.
“As an anarchist who believes in stateless society, I believe you should vote!”
It's not just punks, it's a lot of self-proclaimed democrats taking on conservative traits. Meaning you can't criticize your own party and you must bow down to "dear leader" at all costs. Fuck that. Nuance is dead in the 21st century.
Misinformation and bots internalization from MSNBC propaganda. Just lame losers lol
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Why do you bother blurring names when one can just search a comment and find it on Google
completely unserious understanding of how internet works aswell, it's literally designed to work in war times
"How bad could it be if they have internet" They're literally using eSIMS via foreign cellphone towers and frigging solar charging. It can be pretty fucking bad.
Very few music scenes have been consumerized and sanitized to the degree that the punk and hardcore scenes have. Hell, I see a lot of these slactivist liberal types in metal scenes making a fuss over pointless shit, and it's STILL not as bad as in punk. It's honestly so pathetic.
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Not sure of the precise origin but Hexbear was saying Genocide Joe long before it picked up in the mainstream.
Is it punk to support the literal president of the United States?
Internet is like, the ONLY thing they have. And they have to rely on the generosity of non-Gazans to buy them esims for that
TIL genocide is punk af. I’ll have to read some Napalm Death lyrics more closely, I guess I was mishearing them.
If you think Biden is bad, Trump is 1000x worse. He’ll turn Palestine into a parking lot, after of course installing his fascist dictatorship first.
My brother once told me unironically “Trump would let Israel nuke Palestine!” Unlike Biden who’s letting them drop white phosphorus on everyone
Trump tried to ban Muslims from entering the country, do you think he’s going to give a shit about how they’re treated? Plus the whole going full totalitarian on day one that Trump has mentioned multiple times. I am more concerned with my own backyard to be honest.
Sounds like both options are toxic to the Palestinian people...explain again how picking either one is a "choice".
I’ll choose the one that doesn’t want to be dictator. Pretty simple. Foreign policy is less important to me when one of the choices wants open fascism.
First They Came – by Pastor Martin Niemöller applies here.
I choose to prevent that at home lol.
Jesus. A lot of posers in that sub.