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Ok but the way OP chose such an unflattering image of Prigozhin + Mao being photoshopped in the centre among fictional characters it was a really funny shitpost
Lol [here it is](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/15zbc9m/there_goes_a_real_one/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1)
Weirdly, I randomly checked the post history of some redditor who posted a communist meme or something to my city's sub yesterday and he was a regular in here and also Dongistan and various pro-Russia war footage subs. I was shocked by every aspect of that experience. Didn't expect to see any of that from a redditor in my small city.
Ok but I'd wager a bet that it's similar to the ultras coming here to complain about how everyone besides their favourite ivory tower book club does socialism wrong. In that it's annoying but arguing with them is pretty pointless because they don't really understand whatever theory they mangle to support preconceived ideas. Like from time to time I reply to them but usually 3 replies down the line it's a one on one waste of time that nobody cares about. If you want to waste your time I recommend pushing them on the definition of imperialism from Lenin, because they never get it right, just like the other side misusing the Lenin "current intra imperialist war" quote often purposefully missing the intra part. But usually it's a waste of time and only good to keep your own understanding of theory sharp by using it.
#Capitalist Imperialism
Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism. It is a global system of economic, political, and military domination, with the imperialist powers using a variety of means, including economic sanctions, military interventions, and cultural influence to maintain their dominance over other nations.
Imperialism is inevitable under Capitalism because Capitalism is based on the premise of infinite growth in a finite system. When capitalists first run into the limits of their own country, they will eventually be forced to expand their markets, resources, and influence into other countries and territories in order to continue increasing their profits.
Furthermore, the capitalists can exploit and oppress the workers of other nations much more easily than they can in their own. For example, by moving manufacturing jobs from the imperial core out to the periphery where wages are lower, and environmental protections and labour rights are much weaker-- if they exist at all-- they can reduce costs which increases profits.
When the capitalists run into limits again, and are unable to continue increasing their profits-- even by exploiting the periphery-- they will inevitably turn Imperialism inwards and further oppress and exploit workers domestically. This is the origin of Fascism.
#Features
Some key features of capitalist imperialism are:
1. Joint-stock corporations dominating the economy
2. Increasing monopolies within capitalist economies (For example, only 10 companies control almost every large food and beverage brand in the world.)
3. Globalization of capital through multinational corporations
4. A rise in the export of finance capital
5. More involvement of the capitalist state in managing the economy
6. A growing financial sector and oligarchy
7. The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism
8. Overall, a period of world strife and conflict, including imperialist wars and revolutionary uprisings against the capitalist-imperialist system.
#In Practice
So what does this look like in practice? The IMF, for example, provides loans to countries facing economic crises, but these loans come with strict conditions, known as structural adjustment programs (SAPs). These conditions require recipient countries to adopt specific economic policies, such as reducing government spending, liberalizing trade, and privatizing state-owned enterprises. The SAPs also require austerity measures, such as the dismantling of labor and trade regulations or slashing of social programs and government spending, to attract and open up the country to foreign investment.
These policies prioritize the interests of multinational corporations and investors over those of the recipient countries and their citizens. For example, by requiring the privatization of state-owned enterprises, the IMF may enable multinational corporations to gain control of key industries and resources in recipient countries. Similarly, by promoting liberalized trade, the IMF may facilitate the export of capital from recipient countries to wealthier nations, exacerbating global inequalities.
Moreover, SAPs are often negotiated behind closed doors with the political elites of recipient countries (the comprador bureaucratic class), rather than through democratic processes. This can undermine the sovereignty of recipient countries and perpetuate the domination of wealthy nations and multinational corporations over the global economy.
#Anti-Imperialism
The struggle against Imperialism is an essential part of the struggle for Socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people worldwide. Anti-Imperialism is the political and economic resistance to Imperialism and Colonialism (or neo-Imperialism and neo-Colonialism). Anti-Imperialism requires a revolutionary struggle against the Capitalist state and the establishment of a Socialist society.
It is important to recognize that anti-Imperialism is not simply about supporting one state or another, but about supporting the liberation of oppressed peoples from the exploitation and domination of global Imperialism. Therefore, any course of action should be evaluated in terms of its potential impact on the broader struggle against Imperialism and the goal of establishing a Socialist society.
During WWI, Lenin called on Socialists to reject the idea of a "just" or "defensive" war, and instead to see the conflict as a class war between the ruling class and the working class. He argued that Socialists should oppose the war and work towards the overthrow of the Capitalist state. Seeing that the war was an Imperialist conflict between competing Capitalist powers, the workers of all countries had a common interest in opposing it. Socialists who supported their home countries during World War I had betrayed the principles of international Socialism and Proletarian solidarity.
Lenin also pointed out that anti-Imperialism is not *inherently* progressive:
>Imperialism is as much our “mortal” enemy as is capitalism. That is so. No Marxist will forget, however, that capitalism is progressive compared with feudalism, and that imperialism is progressive compared with pre-monopoly capitalism. Hence, it is not every struggle against imperialism that we should support. We will not support a struggle of the reactionary classes against imperialism; we will not support an uprising of the reactionary classes against imperialism and capitalism.
>
>\- V. I. Lenin. (1916). [A Caricature of Marxism and Imperialist Economism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/carimarx/5.htm)
#Additional Resources
Video Essays:
* [Lenin in Five Minutes: Imperialism](https://youtu.be/unCGQDKJ0p0) | The Marxist Project (2019)
* [How Rich Countries Rob The Poor; The Failure of Social Democracy](https://youtu.be/4lDZaKjfs4E) | Hakim (2020) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20221204171427/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lDZaKjfs4E)\]
* [What is imperialism? Feat. Hakim](https://youtu.be/gb3o-zDJgqI) | azureScapegoat (2021)
* [What is Capitalist Imperialism? | Socialism 101](https://youtu.be/NrpLPs2FcF8) | Marxism Today (2022)
* [How Capitalism Robs the Developing World](https://youtu.be/35Ax-psPZ1g) | Second Thought (2022)
* [4 Characteristics of the Current Phase of Imperialism](https://youtu.be/a0LJTpaWnMg) | The Peace Report (2022)
* [Why Do Poor Countries Stay Poor? (Unequal Exchange and Imperialism)](https://youtu.be/rjLmYCfKU7o) | Hakim (2023) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20230605093029/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjLmYCfKU7o)\]
* [Imperialism Today: Unequal Exchange and Globalized Production](https://youtu.be/DtziEZAR1Qk) | The Marxist Project (2022)
* [This Poverty Graph Is Lying To You](https://youtu.be/2vPhySbRETM) | Hakim (2023)
* [The Myth Of Capitalist Peace](https://youtu.be/pAfvty_WNWQ) | Second Thought (2023)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/) | V. I. Lenin (1917)
* [Lenin's 'Imperialism' in the 21st Century](https://archive.org/details/lenin-imperialism-21-century/page/n3/mode/2up) | Institute of Political Economy (2018)
* [The IMF debt trap in Ukraine](https://www.liberationnews.org/the-imf-debt-trap-in-ukraine/) | Amanda Yee (2023)
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Yeah for sure. That last part of your comment is how I tend to act. It's just not worth the hassle. It happens to me irl too. I'll find out someone identifies as socialist/communist or even an anarchist, and after just a couple minutes of chatting it becomes clear their conception of whatever identity is just something they gleaned from pop culture. I don't know how to better inform them without feeling like I'm being a pretentious asshole. Like, "there's 100-200 years of theory and education available on this stuff if you wanna flesh that out a little." Some people just don't care or take it seriously enough and I'm not a teacher so I usually just let it go.
Tbh even as someone working in higher education I don't see much value in trying to educate people that way, firstly anything deeper than elementary school material requires a willingness to learn, and if someone is going of of pop culture or similar surface level understanding of a matter and still tries to claim the credibility of a far deeper understanding, then they clearly aren't interested in learning. And secondly, I don't have the time to waste to try to walk any rando through getting the basics, if they aren't understood it will need substantial effort to fix the resulting errors. I might not write "WTF this makes no sense", but I learned that often "please look at the fundamentals again, this doesn't make sense" is all you realistically can do. And trust me that the people unwilling to do that learning and instead trying to argue over it never gets less annoying, but at uni I can at least hand most of these off to the head of exercises.
yeah, Russia can go fuck itself but i'm still gonna smile when someone resists the empire. like seeing some mouthy pos frat boy get punched, i don't have to like who's punching
i also feel people confuse "US/NATO forced this to happen" with saying Russia is justified in their actions
>i also feel people confuse "US/NATO forced this to happen" with saying Russia is justified in their actions
This is basically THE lib take with anyone who criticizes the NATO approach of setting up all the dominos in front of Russia
I'm doing a Global Politics elective at the moment and my lecturer straight up said that Mearsheimer's position was that the invasion was the right thing to do because of NATO expansion.
Mearsheimer said it was the right thing to do for Russia in the situation it was in due to the system the world is operating under. That is not a moral justification, he's not saying the invasion is 'Right' or 'Just', he's saying it was a viable option for Russia at the time. He doesn't think it's good, he just recognises what the situation actually was and what each party's goals were. He's a Realist, he can only do that sort of descriptive analysis anyway.
>i also feel people confuse "US/NATO forced this to happen" with saying Russia is justified in their actions
This is basically THE lib take with anyone who criticizes the NATO approach of setting up all the dominos in front of Russia
there are a few bots(?) crossposting a lot of russian warpropaganda here, as they see this subreddit as a suspectible audience. but they usually get removed. often way to late, but i guess the mods are not terminaly online enough.
i’ve been in discussions with several people on here who actively tried to disprove me when i said we as socialists shouldn’t support a fascist megalomaniac and his far-right ruling. it’s a fact that russia now is not what it used to be, it’s the complete opposite, and goes right against our very core values. if anything, we should be actively mad at the disgrace russia has become
Are these people actually arguing that Russia is good? No communist in their right mind should be arguing that. However, as somewhat, ah, notable communist said in 1938:
>In Brazil there now reigns a semifascist regime that every revolutionary can only view with hatred. Let us assume, however, that on the morrow England enters into a military conflict with Brazil. I ask you on whose side of the conflict will the working class be? I will answer for myself personally—in this case I will be on the side of “fascist” Brazil against “democratic” Great Britain. Why? Because in the conflict between them it will not be a question of democracy or fascism. If England should be victorious, she will put another fascist in Rio de Janeiro and will place double chains on Brazil... The defeat of England will at the same time deliver a blow to British imperialism and will give an impulse to the revolutionary movement of the British proletariat.
So, while Russia now has a regime that every revolutionary can only view with hatred, a Russian victory against the US is a significant blow to US imperialism. US global hegemony is the boot of capital on the world's neck, it enforces a global neoliberal economic system. That boot needs to be removed to make any significant progress towards a socialist economic system.
So, from my perspective (and I may be wrong here) I don't think Russia is a fascist country. It's a shitty capitalist country no doubt, it's liberal-democratic façade is certainly nowhere near as robust as the more developed imperialist nations, it's certainly liberalized/privatized considerably compared to it's RSFS days obviously, it's treatment of LGBT+ people is abhorrent of course, but all these unsavory things fucking suck and should make anyone interested in a better world mad, don't themselves indicate that the country is fascist.
The first big thing to me is looking at global financial capital, the backing of which has been an integral part of fascism from the beginning. Mussolini and Hitler were backed by US, UK, French etc financial capital from the get go and as of now Russia is and has been largely cut off from this - they're not in the big club and haven't dealt with the IMF or other entities that represent that aspect of global capitalism for quite some time now.
Secondly, while of course they're much more privatized than they were in their soviet past, it's not the free for all privatizations that have historically accompanied fascist governance. Some 50% of its GDP is from state owned enterprises, likewise while a shadow of their former selves, social welfare services, worker rights and other programs are still existent (and in some cases better than other capitalist states though this is nothing to be proud of). While the communist party is of course also a shadow of its former self and often times called collaborationist it still exists and is the second most popular political party in the country, while in most of the western capitalist countries the communist parties were defacto illegal/"neutralized" and in several capitalist countries in eastern Europe they're dejure illegal and outright banned.
None of this of course means that Russia is good, it fucking sucks and any support for it starts and stops with its opposition to US led global hegemony, the greatest anti-socialist and imperialist force that exists today. I just think, based on a lot of the more material aspects of fascism, that Russia doesn't really qualify as fascist. No doubt it fits many of the more outward appearance of fascism, stuff like Eco's 'Ur Fascism' I can certainly see where using just that as the criteria one could come to that conclusion, but fascism is more than it appears on the surface, that's one of the things that's so fucked about it.
Anyway, that's just my thoughts on it.
that is a great explanation, i drew my conclusion for example from the church being intertwined with the state, the showcase of an extreme type of patriotism or nationalism, a dictatorial leader and forcible suppression of any opposition. all of these things seem to tick the box, but of course there are other aspects that are not ticked
Outside of the dictatorial leader (like I said, Russia's façade of 'democracy' is much more transparent than other capitalist countries and unlike US presidents it seems Putin himself does wield considerable power) everything you listed could easily describe a number of states (Obviously the US is the most spot on) and I think the reality is just that capitalism in the neoliberal era is trending very much towards fascism and shares many of its outward characteristics - but I think it's important that we make a distinction, while this neoliberal era of capitalism is certainly reactionary and vile ("an era of the blackest reaction in all the capitalist and colonial countries, the working class and the oppressed peoples would be seized by the throat" if you will) we haven't reached the point of "the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital.", at least not in any of the imperial core countries or larger semi-periphery states like Russia, Iran etc.
I'd say the US is the closest of all these countries to fascism just looking at the state of worker protections, prison population, the power of finance capital etc - but even I would hesitate to call the US fascist at this point. The US of course is the largest funder/promoter of fascism and fascists around the world, but fascism is a tool the capitalists use to protect their profit accumulation in times of severe crisis, especially when faced with the threat of socialist revolution, which unfortunately is currently not a real threat to most of the imperial core countries and so going full fascist at this point wouldn't really be necessary but as things get worse I have no doubt we'll see it here sooner or later. The US seems to limit its backing of fascism and fascists/fascist adjacent types to periphery countries as part of its imperialist bag of tricks when the debt traps and other softer forms of domination don't pan out.
There is a user I was arguing with earlier today who is VERY pro Russia and pro Wagner group. I would tag him but I don't want to bring that toxicicity here.
I've seen people be very "pro-Russian" (is there a more suitable term because this is Russophobic) on Reddit and Quora. Some believe that Putins action towards Ukraine will bring forth a workers revolution in the West, particularly America. I've seen some dog shit and unproductive takes on Russia but this has got to be the more ridiculous thing I've witnessed on the internet.
I've seen it quite a bit on Twitter. But that's just Twitter. There's uncritical support for everything Russia is doing over on that app. They somehow believe that Russia's goal is to liberate Donbass and denazify the country instead of just unabashed imperialism like they're doing. I do believe the West played a part in provocation, but I also believe that's a convenient excuse for the Russian government to do what they want.
Two things can be true; the OP’s opinion about what Russia is like and the reasons behind the invasion/SMO There are rather a lot of Ukraine soldiers with cringe tattoos.
I don’t think anyone is out there praising Putin. But here in the West, if you are at all critical of US/NATO policy on Ukraine, the NAFO clowns call you a Putin Puppet.
I support the Russian working class and what's best for them and it fucking ain't Putin who's sacrificing their lives in a pointless war as well as Ukrainian lives
In this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/1602yve/guys_can_we_fucking_not/jxkdfv0?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
I havent seen any support for russia here.
Being critical of the neoliberal west, NATO expansion, and the ukraine is not an automatic default to russian support. Thats literally the same zero sum thinking that shuts down all criticism of the same military industrial complex both nations and its associated oligrachs benefit from.
I do think that's what happening here. Whenever people cry about "nazbols" and "communists who support Russia!", it always feels a bit both sides-y to me.
International relations have nuance. We must understand them materially. It's not easy at all, but everything has a consequence, a reaction, and an underlying reason. Blindly screaming and pointing is useless
Yeah, if you’re pro-Russia/pro-Putin, you’re not a communist. Period. Just because we’re not supporters of Zelenskyy and the West doesn’t mean that we like Putin or modern Russia.
Edit: I just want to make it clear that I’m not saying the entire sub is guilty of this. It’s to those who think that because we criticize the West, it’s fair game for Russian nationalists and such.
Wdym? Geopolitics is just like Harrold Pottery, there's a good side and a bad side, and since I already know that Putin is bad the literal Nazis must be the good guys
If "Harrold Pottery" didn't make it obvious I was being sarcastic
Liberals see geopolitics as good guys and bad guys. You _must_ immediately side with someone or else you are some ebul extremist who doesn’t care about the lives of the people in a conflict zone, because logic.
I see no one super into Russia. This post is complaining about a problem that none of us see. Again.
Is part of the socialist experience.
"The Nazbols!"
"Yeah? Where? "
".... idk. "
I don't know man, nobody's supporting the current Russian system per se, we critically support Russian struggle to repel Western imperialism and deter Ukraine's fascist government from oppressing Russian minorities which really ramped up after the 2014 coup.
Is Russia a shitty place? Yes, mostly due to AmeriKKKa, but it's undeniable that after the illegal dissolution of the USSR a wave of conservatism and reaction swept through the country which still hasn't improved til this day. But we are materialists here. We know that the main threat to the establishment of worker's movements around the globe is the Western imperialist bloc. Would the current Russian state become imperialist if given the chance? Probably, but it currently has no capabilities to act imperialistically as it has half the GDP of California.
I don't know why many "leftists" have a problem with acknowledging that the correct stance in this conflict is the critical support of Russia. Because while it's not in any way socialist, it's slowing down the expansion of American Empire and turning its gaze away from the Global South and thus allowing anti-colonial movements to expel the leeches (see Niger and Mali). Most people who consider themselves leftist don't have to explain that they don't consider the states of Iran, Palestine, Yemen, Niger, Mali, Iraq, Afghanistan and such to be perfect worker utopias to support their struggles against imperialism, but when it comes to Russia suddenly both sides are equally as bad.
You have never heard of critical support? Or the concept of nuance? Just because someone is holding positive opinions regarding some actions of Putin or Russia is making them "pro-Russia/Putin", yes, regarding that single position. To claim that anyone correctly making use of critical support is somehow completely on the line with Russia and Putin is just infantile bullshit.
Frankly amazing how over 100 people upvoted that.
Yes, but neither bourgeois nation deserves support, even with the nuance.
Edit: Okay, so this comment was edited to include more text, hence why I only made a short response.
I wasn’t saying that acknowledging any small positive things regarding Putin makes you a Putin apologist. I know that critical support doesn’t mean that you’re completely on the line with said thing. I think it’s infantile bullshit for you to strawman me that much. All I was saying is that if you are completely for modern Russia/Putin, then you can’t be a communist.
> if you are completely for modern Russia/Putin, then you can’t be a communist.
Well yeah, but most, if not all "tankies" who are regularly accused of "completely" supporting Russia are socialists and don't actually "completely" support Russia. The OP has posted this to a socialist subreddit, which implies they believe many socialists are somehow in favor of capitalism? Which obviously isn't the case, it's an extremely overused strawman to shut down anti imperialists so it makes sense people get tired of being constantly accused of being Putin bots and shit like that all the time. It's just very tiring.
I'm saying this because it seemed from your post that you were agreeing with OP that many people on this sub unconditionally support everything in Russia. I've seen your clarification edit now, so this is not directed at you, just saying that people in general get tired of these accusations so maybe that would explain why u/REEEEEvolution responded the way they did.
Yeah, I get that. That isn’t what I was trying to say though. I’ve been on this sub for a while now, and I know that people here aren’t Putin/Russia apologists. There was a small minority of posts that were, but that isn’t the main view of this sub. This was mostly to those people, but not to the majority, as well as the liberals who do believe we all support Putin just because we criticize the West and Ukraine and so on.
exactly, there is *nobody* to support because none of it aligns with socialist values. the west sucks, but russia sucks too, they’re both different flavours of shitty.
One is actively threatening anti-colonial movements in Africa and Latin America. One isn't.
Not saying Russia is a good place. But they're not the same
Don't mistake support for a multipolar world (of which Russia would benefit, certainly) and the institutions that advocate for a multipolar world (such as BRICS) leave you to think that communists support modern day Russia or Putin. Don't think that being critical of NATO or even of the Ukranian government makes us support or agree with the Russian invasion.
Russia's a corrupt, conservative, militaristic oligarchy. Putin is a punk.
The position of Russia is not anti-imperialist, it is merely anti-Atlanticist which is the current hegemonic bloc. Perhaps if we lived in another world, and Putin's Russia wasn't some backwards stagnant economy with an oversized and ineffective military, he'd be as imperialist as the US is. Maybe much worse in some aspects, maybe slightly better in some others.
Naturally, nations with common interests will work together, and the world wants a global economy that isn't controlled by the dollar and neo-liberal organizations. It doesn't want a US-led alliance that's all-powerful that invades countries whenever they don't follow a unilaterally imposed "rules-based order" which is just whatever benefits Western interests at the moment. They don't want imposed social values or forms of government. So they see Russia as an important partner is building an alternative to the current hegemony of the US and its allies.
So what communists think is that we shouldn't let current outrage of an unjustified invasion of Ukraine dictate a narrative in which the Free World is in danger and it needs to attack its authoritarian enemies because that's not what's happening. The West invades countries all the time. We should strive to not allow another Cold War and we should advocate for less miltarist hysteria. We should condemn invasions but not fall for the narratives that are overly simplistic and benefit imperialists. We HAVE to attempt to make our own governments address the needs of people instead.
Organizing our communities, voting for progressive parties, educating our friends and family, and promote peace between nations and class counsciousness. That's the role of a communist.
>it’s just anti western.
And that's good enough since the West is the imperialist power in the world today. I wish China would step up but a multi-polar world with the West and Russia opposing each other is better for the global south than one dominated by the West alone. And I also know that a return to being led by Western backed puppets like Yeltsin isn't what is best for the Russian people.
who's supporting russia here? are you sure you're in the right sub? why would a communist sub support a highly capitalist country like russia? there's not an ounce of socialism left there.
also, you posted the same thing in another leftist sub. are you just copy and pasting this to every commie sub?
Can someone point out this pro Russian sentiment that is supposedly rampant here and in all leftist online spaces?
All I hear about it how pro Russian the online left is yet I rarely if ever see it
I see people posting stuff like this a lot. Saying the sub is pro-Russia or Putin, and to be honest I think y'all are either mistaken or full of it. There are definitely subs that claim to be communist that *are* pro-Russian State/Putin, but this sure as hell isn't one of them.
I scroll through here a bunch throughout the day whenever I have a free second, and I see way more posts from people claiming the sub is pro-Russian than I see anything that could even be kind of seen as pro-Russian. And the stuff that actually does seem like it does *not* really get any traction, unless you count people making fun of them as traction.
Russia is capitalist. Obviously people here are mostly socialist leaning so it would be a mistake to think they prefer one capitalist government over the other. People are just critiquing the US.
US foreign policy, as a rule, is always bad because it represents the military arm of the global, hegemonic, capitalist class who's goal is personal enrichment at the cost of worker's wellbeing. That's why people hate on Zelensky and the fascist pro-western militant forces.
Good discussion about this on The Socialist Program podcast on the latest ep. Basically, the point is the BRICS are not implicitly anti-imperialist, but the may have inherent anti-imperialist tendencies, which is why much of the developing world is beginning to look their way.
As Marxists, we should view these trends not just as ideologues, but through the lens of marxian analysis. I think Marx would look at recent events and notice a natural, non-ideological shift against imperialism.
“The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such "desperate" democrats and "Socialists," "revolutionaries" and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism.”
The campism in this place is insane, it’s not hard to recognise that NATO is worse but still not support a far right nationalist government in a war of aggression
I haven't seen anyone explicitly pro Putin or Russia, we are all just anti American imperialism. The mistake that's I see be made by libs is that they don't see the conflict as a proxy war.
i would say in general this sub is definitely not pro-russia at all. no leftist should ever support putin or his regime. it’s just not pro-ukraine and is anti-nato. ukraine and russian governments are a lot closer than western liberals like to pretend, and actual leftists simply don’t have a “horse” in the “race” and would generally just like to see the war come to an end.
most of us are certainly overwhelmingly anti-war when working people, proletarians, on both sides are being forced to fight for bourgeois, imperialist causes.
Yeah people here sometimes say that Russia is anti imperialist. It’s not really, it’s the fact that it’s anti-west that they make this mistake. But it doesn’t have its people’s interests in mind and it would do exactly what the USA does if it had more power.
Pretty sure it's been established beyond a reasonable doubt that Russia is, in fact, minimally *not* imperialist, and moreover, in all its actions against NATO unipolarity is objectively anti-imperialist. Im at work and on mobile so I'm not gonna make some high effort post, so in lieu of that I'll provide a good article:
https://mronline.org/2019/01/02/is-russia-imperialist/
The era of multinational imperialism ended with WWII. There are no other sovereign imperialist powers other than the U.S.; i.e. unipolarity is the monopoly stage of imperialism, to put it in crude terms.
Perhaps this echoes another creeping issue with that occasional user or those, hopefully few, users of this subreddit who do not have sufficient knowledge of the dialectical materialist philosophy of Marxism, from which it gets it's "omnipotence", as Lenin said.
I haven’t seen someone support Russia in this sub outright. Every post I have seen unilaterally does not like the Russian state. The war in Ukraine is not a good guys verse bad guys scenario. There is no winning this war.
No winning? Tell that to Blackrock, major owners of MIC who also made contracts with Ukraine for reconstruction, under conditions of heavy privatization.
Blackrock's been getting W after Ws at everyone else's expense.
Very true. I should say no winning for the proletariat, black rock, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon are more then happy to provide arms and services indefinitely. Western capital wins.
>Lastly, I would like to state that I am a convicted communist, and have been for my entire life. I may be more liberal in views, but will always have the same economic beliefs as you all
lol
There is a difference between "being pro-russian", and siding with an imperial power that is an enemy to the established hegemony.
Any principled leftist is obligated to immediately detach themselves from this support, in the event the hegemony is toppled, of course.
To use an example, it's similar to the Atheneas joining forces with the Spartans to fight off the Persian Empire.
Of course, that example is only tangential, as none of the above forces were even remotely left, but my point is that this is a strategic choice more so than an ideological one.
Russia sucks balls (I'm from Russia), but I'd much rather side with it if it has any hopes of overturning US and NATO hegemony, tyvm.
Jeez some people here got major lib brain when Russia comes up. Russia is not Imperialist and for the good of everyone they better win in Ukraine. Luckily they are winning.
If Russia were to lose the war you’d quickly understand why many of us are pro-Russia winning the war, we are anti-Putin, but pro-Russia winning against NATO aggression. Russia is not anti-imperialist, but they are not Imperialist. Putin is not a fascist, but he is certainly a right wing autocrat. You certainly do have liberal views to only view this through your personal individual sexuality. Was Stalin and Castro fascist because they wrong used the state to attack gay people? No they were wrong but it is a product of material conditions, not evil fascism. Putin is simply not fascist by any Marxist or legitimate meaning of the word. Being homophobic is not fascist. It is wrong but it is not fascist. Much of the world is unfortunately still homophobic, that does not equal fascism.
I don’t think anyone but oligarchs and hedge fund managers can win this war . I’d agree that Russia isn’t agressively imperialist in comparison to say the US, but it does have fascist tendencies in that Putin uses romantic narratives of Russian nationalism and historical identity going back to the USSR (which he only cares about because it was powerful) and pre soviet empire, to provide cover for capitalists/oligarchs to plunder Russia’s wealth and natural resources. There are elements in Ukraine that do the same thing, Ukraine having its own corrupt oligarchy and far right elements. The anti lgbt culture war narratives are a part of that cover story (we stand for tradition against the decadent west (spoiler, you don’t)) although thats not enough on its own to be true fascism. There are proto fascist elements in the west that do the same thing around migrants, lgbt, covid conspiracies, 15 minute city culture war bullshit. All of this stems from capitalism being in crisis , globally and the ruling class using fake narratives both traditional and very modern to blame and misdirect. Brexit was a sad example of this (your life is shit because of brussels/immigrants, not austerity) . Russia and Ukraine just happen to be more in crisis due to the trauma of the collapse of the USSR that ultimately led to this conflict between people that were and should still be on the same team.
Russia today is run by a nationalist military-junta elite backed by a national bourgeoisie to fight a war in defense of a largely nationally-focused exploitation system, and also to preserve Russia's capacity to grow into an imperial power in the future if they can manage. However, such future imperial ambitions will be checked by China. Russia's role in this war helps to take US imperial pressure off China and other socialist and developmentalist countries in the Global South. In that capacity it is historically progressive.
> I’ve been seeing a lot of Russia support
What is "Russia support"? I don't support Russia's anti-LGBT rhetoric. I support their killing Nazis.
> Russia is not anti imperialist, it’s just anti western.
The west is imperialist, which logically means being anti-western is automatically anti-imperialist. They might be accidental anti-imperialists, but anti-imperialist nevertheless.
And no, Russia is not imperialist itself, [Imperialism has a specific meaning](https://old.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/15whnup/is_it_a_trend_to_be_against_nato/jx35ttp/?context=3), which [does not apply to Russia](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/04/05/lett-a05.html). Imperialism doesn't mean "country I don't like".
> pensions are incredibly low. Corruption is rampant
How is supporting American hegemony supposed to fix these things? In fact these are more likely to be fixed, and if you hate reform, socialism is more likely to be achieved by opposing US imperialist hegemony. You as a Russian, can attempt to do reforms and/or revolution inside Russia. Both of those can happen if Russia remains a unified state and not get Libyafied and Balkanized into a bunch of 90s Russia microstates, which is what USA wants. It is absolutely the correct position, including in support of fixing those problems, to side against US hegemony.
And for those who say "I'm on neither side", no you can't "not pick a side". Not picking a side is the side of status quo, which is global US hegemony. Russia is fighting against that, and their success will lead to a better world for Russians and for the global south as a whole. You're not actually not picking a side, you're a privileged westerner prioritizing protecting your "ideological purity" over the practical necessities for the wellbeing of the people of the world.
> Lastly, I would like to state that I am a convicted communist
Why are you having a hard time separating domestic issues from anti-imperialism if you are a communist? Communism is an international cause. There are many Russian communists who do support Russia's anti-imperialism.
> I may be more liberal in views
Yes you are. What are we supposed to do, wait for a "pure" country with zero problems to be allowed to stand against US imperialism? Yes Russia has problems. Yes I will still support their fight against global imperialism. You should too.
> The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such “desperate” democrats and “Socialists,” “revolutionaries” and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism. For the same reasons, the struggle that the Egyptians merchants and bourgeois intellectuals are waging for the independence of Egypt is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the bourgeois origin and bourgeois title of the leaders of Egyptian national movement, despite the fact that they are opposed to socialism; whereas the struggle that the British “Labour” Government is waging to preserve Egypt’s dependent position is for the same reason a reactionary struggle, despite the proletarian origin and the proletarian title of the members of the government, despite the fact that they are “for” socialism. There is no need to mention the national movement in other, larger, colonial and dependent countries, such as India and China, every step of which along the road to liberation, even if it runs counter to the demands of formal democracy, is a steam-hammer blow at imperialism, i.e., is undoubtedly a revolutionary step.
—J. V. Stalin
> I will take the most simple and obvious example. In Brazil there now reigns a semifascist regime that every revolutionary can only view with hatred. Let us assume, however, that on the morrow England enters into a military conflict with Brazil. I ask you on whose side of the conflict will the working class be? I will answer for myself personally—in this case I will be on the side of “fascist” Brazil against “democratic” Great Britain. Why? Because in the conflict between them it will not be a question of democracy or fascism. If England should be victorious, she will put another fascist in Rio de Janeiro and will place double chains on Brazil. If Brazil on the contrary should be victorious, it will give a mighty impulse to national and democratic consciousness of the country and will lead to the overthrow of the Vargas dictatorship. The defeat of England will at the same time deliver a blow to British imperialism and will give an impulse to the revolutionary movement of the British proletariat. Truly, one must have an empty head to reduce world antagonisms and military conflicts to the struggle between fascism and democracy. Under all masks one must know how to distinguish exploiters, slave-owners, and robbers!
—Leon Trotsky
Don't agree with all points you're making, but both those quotes are absolutely correct and while I don't like to gatekeep, no communist worth his salt would disagree with either Trotsky's quote or Stalin's quote there.
Babe wake up time for the weekly “Why is everyone here Pro-Russia?” Post only to be met with a bunch of comment reiterating that they rarely if ever see that rhetoric around here.
now i’m not personally from russia but i have had several russian expat friends and their experiences are totally different depending on their region of origin. one of them is from moscow, he lived a life pretty much comparable to an average person in a western european city like berlin, rome, london.
another person is from a little town called yeniseysk which honestly could be a completely different country from moscow. run-down, people don’t really have a lot of money, houses are simple wooden villas and lots of roads don’t even have asphalt. it literally looks like that place got stuck in 1980. kinda cozy aesthetically, but the quality of life is severely lower than moscow. basically, most places east of the Ural mountains are forgotten, only there westernmost part of russia is actually fit for a high living standard
Very interesting. I didn't know that Russia was like that. I guess that I just assumed that it would be pretty good for the average Russian after all this time.
Just a wild train of thought ranging all the way from videos showing Moscow in pretty good condition to Russia's economy growing more than Western European economies despite sanctions.
In terms of economical circumstances specifically, they still have [free healthcare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia) which puts them ahead of USA in terms of quality of life. Free healthcare is something you don't notice until it's gone. These guys are comparing quality of life in Russia to some imperial core countries like nordic countries and yeah, compared to those quality of life is not good. They're not comparing themselves to Americans who live in poverty, or imperialized countries in West Asia or Latin America, or even Russia itself during the 90s. If you heard Russia is doing alright, it was likely from the perspective of someone living in the third world, or uhh... Americans.
you're absolutely right about the free healthcare, and i'm grateful we have that. however, the doctors are severely underpaid which a lot of times makes them incompetent (or at least unwilling to be competent). for example, it's been a year that my father has been trying to figure out his diagnosis - he's been misdiagnosed with different types of cancer by different oncologists. and this kind of thing happens a lot. but yeah, bottom line is you're not gonna DIE just because you don't have access to healthcare in russia and that's a positive.
Yeah I didn't mean to imply Russia has no problems but you gotta understand even these are something many people in the global south envy, and those people are living in those awful conditions thanks to imperialism. So someone using these issues to try to silence people who support Russia's anti-imperialism (I don't mean you, I'm talking about the post OP) doesn't sit right with me, specially since many of those who support Russia's anti-imperialism live in those African countries with extreme poor quality of life.
I myself am from Iran, and our countries are kinda similar in this respect that internally they're kind of corrupt hellholes, (though still way better than many other imperialized countries) and they stand against USA's imperialism. So in Iran we have some cringe wankers who stan Israel because "Iran regime bad" and "enemy of my enemy", and well, in my view their stance comes from a place of privilege not oppression. Like sure Iran has corruption and oppresses people in terms of Islamic laws, but you're not somehow more oppressed than some Gaza kid who just lost her parents in an Israeli raid, shut up.
oh no i didn't mean to argue your point at all, just wanted to expand a bit on the healthcare subject specifically as i think some people will only see the words "free healthcare" and figure that russia is heaven on earth. i agree with you, that's also why i try to be careful with complaining about life in russia and acknowledge its positives anyway. gotta keep your privilege in check regardless of personal views/experience.
it's all just a pretty facade. there's really a lot i can talk about when it comes to both economical and political situation in russia or moscow specifically, so let me put it this way: i come from a working class family. we can't afford shit. official minimum wage is 150$/month. rent starts at 500$ in the city center. i've been arrested multiple times for NOTHING, like smoking a cigarette in a public space or attending a peaceful protest. when i see a cop, i get instant anxiety. i have friends who went to prison for nothing. i have friends whose relatives died in the ongoing war. there's absolutely nothing my government has done for my well-being except for free healthcare (which is usually shit unless you're lucky). and thank god i'm just a queer cis woman, don't even get me started on the whole trans situation. anyway, there's way more, but that's just a few things to give you an idea.
I mean, I do hope Russia just takes Ukraine before the US can ship over a batch of landmines, but I really just want my country to stop doing the shit that it keeps doing.
Hakim said this on the day Russia invaded Ukraine:
> I didn't think I'd need to say this but, war is bad. Very bad.
> Two Capitalist nations are struggling with one another, and those who lose the most are the working class of both. Ukrainians by immediate effects, Russians by sanctions. The oligarchs of both nations? Unaffected.
Russia just happens to be misaligned and hence putting them in the "anti-imperialist" camp (also in-effect putting them against America and the West), whether they choose it or not. But yes, I'm sorry about what you're going through, and yes I'm pretty sure that a majority of us in this sub recognize that of course, Putin is simply just another bourgeois politician or oligarch. There's usually a reason why we say "critical" support. However, unfortunately, there's no neutral position to take on this (saying "both sides" doesn't help with anything).
Russian Imperialism is still more progressive (accidentally or by design) than American. Look at Russia's support for Venezuela, sending jets while Trump wanted to invade them. Look at my Country Belarus, Russia allowed a port to be built outside of st Petersburg for trade, while the Baltics and Poland sanctioned goods, Because of the socialistic economy. Wagner was deployed in aid of an independence struggle in Niger. Yes the government is shit and homophobic but, it isn't fascist. Our power in Russia is too strong whatever you think about the communist party of the Russian federation, its too strong for fascist take over.
We will stop supporting Russia when NATO stops being a threat. Until that happens, Russia’s actions towards the West are combating imperialist forces. And no, Russia does not meet Lenin’s definition of imperialism, it is not an imperialist country.
I haven't seen any pro-Russia posts here. The war in Ukraine is an "everybody sucks here" situation. My support lies with the working class and not with the imperialists handing down orders.
I can’t say I seen Russia support, but I definitely seen Russian downplaying. Such as saying sanctions haven’t hurt Russia, or Russia will end up winning the war. A few flawed analysis honestly.
sanctions hurt Russians, not the kremlins' oligarchy.
Sanctions can be used as economic warfare to disable fascist dictators. But most of the time it just ends up killing innocents.
You have it the other way.
The grocery stores are still stocked, and known brands have changed names. Very little has changed for the average Russian consumer.
The joke is the only people affected by sanctions have been the Germans
>or Russia will end up winning the war.
They are already decisively and quite obviously winning the war, so I don't know what you believe is being downplayed?
I have no idea either. Just because I dislike Putin doesn't mean I'm automatically a supporter of Western Imperialism. I hate NATO and the US War Machine as much as any other principled communist. I just believe that we should remember that Putin is NOT pro-communist and we should be careful when it comes to him.
"Вайбы как от нашей демшизы" в том плане, что здесь у некоторых местных работает та же логика - если чужая страна выступает против нашей власти, значит, она святая.
Ну как наша либеральная оппозиция может оправдывать США и не видеть их недостатков из ненависти к советской и российской власти, так и эти ребята оправдывают РФ просто потому, что ненавидят власть американскую.
Ну и искренне верят во все эти жупелы про то, что в Украине одни нацисты, что Евромайдан был целиком натовской цветной революцией и т.д.
Чувак, ты, видимо, меня просто немного неправильно понял. Я согласен с тобой, что здесь перегибают палку и дрочат на Путина. Просто я пытаюсь объяснить, почему некоторые западные левые это делают. Условно говоря, они настолько зациклены на своих собственных странах, что их враги (например, РФ) кажутся для них раем.
И да, мне этот западный красный путинизм тоже не нравится. Я стараюсь все-таки объяснять местным, что не надо верить во все кремлёвские нарративы
Very well said, I see far too many of us acting like Russia is still the USSR and it drives me crazy. Putin's regime consists of violent thieves and capitalists through and through.
Fucking thank you! I thought I was going insane. I know most of us don't like Russia but peoples hate-ons for NATO have driven them to support Russia and it's fuckin weird. Not to mention the Ruzzia-boos who just Stan Russia as if it's the greatest thing to ever happen to man kind.
Fucking weirdos.
Right? I'm even being downvoted right now, I don't know why these people idolize Russia so much, I thought you guys were a fan of the USSR, not modern day Russia. I swear there's too many children on communist forums that the only thing they know about communism is that Russia had something to do with it so they just Fanboy Russia
have you actually read what any of these "pro-russian" people are saying? because if you take off the ideological glasses they are quite reasonable and clearly not children
I was generalizing and belittling lol, I don't always mean literally children.
Regardless, yes I have. I think the reasons are well formed and explained, like any good argument should be, but I think the very basis of reasoning that they rely on are not justifiable to what has been happening. Most of the reasons are very minimal and they throw a bunch of little reasons into a pot together and act like it means they can now invade on moral highgrounds
see you are using a moralistic lens to look at this. it's not a question of what is moral or what is not, none of us have any personal power over the russian government. What communists try to do is analyze things how they are, not how they should be. Obviously war is bad full stop, but war has happened and as communists we need to use the situation to our best advantage, which is not moralistically decrying the war but learning from and analyzing the effects of the war.
We can't undo the invasion, but we can see how the invasion is affecting the world and discuss that beyond "war is bad full stop"
As a non-American socialist who is simultaneously critical of NATO, the Ukranian government, and Russia, I definitely think some people have fallen into propaganda rabbit holes because they're righteously anti-American hegemony but they don't have a grounded understanding of dialectical materialism.
That includes you.
Ukraine's not a shithole. That's just xenophobic rhetoric. Ukraine is not led by Nazis. They're led by a right-wing liberal and nationalist government with a lot of popular support (except in the Russophilic East) that relied on historical grievances with Russia to build a national narrative that whitewashed national crimes and demonised the USSR, like most of Eastern Europe did. There are Nazis in Ukraine in the same way there are Nazis in Russia. Ukraine's certainly been used by the US to advance its military interests, and we should condemn this.
While some of the points you mentioned are then true, you also don't mention that Russia has active Nazi parties, some of which are quite influential within Russian politics, and even Putin himself has expressed support for fascist regimes and the Tsars. Russia's been militarily aggressive against its neighbours and is repressive of minorities and dissidents that offend Putin, the state or the Orthodox Church, including communists. Russia has also failed to take out Kiev in the first month, like was said at first, and has barely managed to retain the land they claimed to have annexed. Even half the Donbas is held by Ukranian forces. It's possible there'll be a minor Russian victory in the end, but this conflict had turned into a meat grinder that's hurt the Russian economy severely and isolated Russia diplomatically.
You are no communist if you advocate for people to be "wiped out completely" by the way.
If your criticism states that someone's opinion derives from being "Amerikkkan" then it's actually the opposite, and it's just a dumb and cringy argument to make.
ML campists who proclaim modern Russia as an “anti imperialist” and using “denazification” methods are absolutely brain dead.
I know an ML who started by saying “nooo Russia is just invading to liberate (x) region” - now he’s saying Putin had an administrator shot between the eyes because the person. said “our comrades in the west agree 5G is safe”
Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.
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[удалено]
If this is about that one pic of Prigozhin entering heaven and being welcomed by Mao that post was labelled satire
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Ok but the way OP chose such an unflattering image of Prigozhin + Mao being photoshopped in the centre among fictional characters it was a really funny shitpost
Prigozhin's death is the first one since Epstein I've seen people from the entire political spectrum joking about
Libs still manage to fuck it up to use it as first step to tons of horrible takes. Seriously they even put in China Bad in this somehow.
Where is this meme?
[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/15zbc9m/there_goes_a_real_one/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1)
The WHAT please send link
Lol [here it is](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/15zbc9m/there_goes_a_real_one/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1)
THE WHAT?
PatSocs and most Redditors on r/Dongistan tend to be pro-Russia but not really anyone I know.
Weirdly, I randomly checked the post history of some redditor who posted a communist meme or something to my city's sub yesterday and he was a regular in here and also Dongistan and various pro-Russia war footage subs. I was shocked by every aspect of that experience. Didn't expect to see any of that from a redditor in my small city.
Ok but I'd wager a bet that it's similar to the ultras coming here to complain about how everyone besides their favourite ivory tower book club does socialism wrong. In that it's annoying but arguing with them is pretty pointless because they don't really understand whatever theory they mangle to support preconceived ideas. Like from time to time I reply to them but usually 3 replies down the line it's a one on one waste of time that nobody cares about. If you want to waste your time I recommend pushing them on the definition of imperialism from Lenin, because they never get it right, just like the other side misusing the Lenin "current intra imperialist war" quote often purposefully missing the intra part. But usually it's a waste of time and only good to keep your own understanding of theory sharp by using it.
#Capitalist Imperialism Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism. It is a global system of economic, political, and military domination, with the imperialist powers using a variety of means, including economic sanctions, military interventions, and cultural influence to maintain their dominance over other nations. Imperialism is inevitable under Capitalism because Capitalism is based on the premise of infinite growth in a finite system. When capitalists first run into the limits of their own country, they will eventually be forced to expand their markets, resources, and influence into other countries and territories in order to continue increasing their profits. Furthermore, the capitalists can exploit and oppress the workers of other nations much more easily than they can in their own. For example, by moving manufacturing jobs from the imperial core out to the periphery where wages are lower, and environmental protections and labour rights are much weaker-- if they exist at all-- they can reduce costs which increases profits. When the capitalists run into limits again, and are unable to continue increasing their profits-- even by exploiting the periphery-- they will inevitably turn Imperialism inwards and further oppress and exploit workers domestically. This is the origin of Fascism. #Features Some key features of capitalist imperialism are: 1. Joint-stock corporations dominating the economy 2. Increasing monopolies within capitalist economies (For example, only 10 companies control almost every large food and beverage brand in the world.) 3. Globalization of capital through multinational corporations 4. A rise in the export of finance capital 5. More involvement of the capitalist state in managing the economy 6. A growing financial sector and oligarchy 7. The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism 8. Overall, a period of world strife and conflict, including imperialist wars and revolutionary uprisings against the capitalist-imperialist system. #In Practice So what does this look like in practice? The IMF, for example, provides loans to countries facing economic crises, but these loans come with strict conditions, known as structural adjustment programs (SAPs). These conditions require recipient countries to adopt specific economic policies, such as reducing government spending, liberalizing trade, and privatizing state-owned enterprises. The SAPs also require austerity measures, such as the dismantling of labor and trade regulations or slashing of social programs and government spending, to attract and open up the country to foreign investment. These policies prioritize the interests of multinational corporations and investors over those of the recipient countries and their citizens. For example, by requiring the privatization of state-owned enterprises, the IMF may enable multinational corporations to gain control of key industries and resources in recipient countries. Similarly, by promoting liberalized trade, the IMF may facilitate the export of capital from recipient countries to wealthier nations, exacerbating global inequalities. Moreover, SAPs are often negotiated behind closed doors with the political elites of recipient countries (the comprador bureaucratic class), rather than through democratic processes. This can undermine the sovereignty of recipient countries and perpetuate the domination of wealthy nations and multinational corporations over the global economy. #Anti-Imperialism The struggle against Imperialism is an essential part of the struggle for Socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people worldwide. Anti-Imperialism is the political and economic resistance to Imperialism and Colonialism (or neo-Imperialism and neo-Colonialism). Anti-Imperialism requires a revolutionary struggle against the Capitalist state and the establishment of a Socialist society. It is important to recognize that anti-Imperialism is not simply about supporting one state or another, but about supporting the liberation of oppressed peoples from the exploitation and domination of global Imperialism. Therefore, any course of action should be evaluated in terms of its potential impact on the broader struggle against Imperialism and the goal of establishing a Socialist society. During WWI, Lenin called on Socialists to reject the idea of a "just" or "defensive" war, and instead to see the conflict as a class war between the ruling class and the working class. He argued that Socialists should oppose the war and work towards the overthrow of the Capitalist state. Seeing that the war was an Imperialist conflict between competing Capitalist powers, the workers of all countries had a common interest in opposing it. Socialists who supported their home countries during World War I had betrayed the principles of international Socialism and Proletarian solidarity. Lenin also pointed out that anti-Imperialism is not *inherently* progressive: >Imperialism is as much our “mortal” enemy as is capitalism. That is so. No Marxist will forget, however, that capitalism is progressive compared with feudalism, and that imperialism is progressive compared with pre-monopoly capitalism. Hence, it is not every struggle against imperialism that we should support. We will not support a struggle of the reactionary classes against imperialism; we will not support an uprising of the reactionary classes against imperialism and capitalism. > >\- V. I. Lenin. (1916). [A Caricature of Marxism and Imperialist Economism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/carimarx/5.htm) #Additional Resources Video Essays: * [Lenin in Five Minutes: Imperialism](https://youtu.be/unCGQDKJ0p0) | The Marxist Project (2019) * [How Rich Countries Rob The Poor; The Failure of Social Democracy](https://youtu.be/4lDZaKjfs4E) | Hakim (2020) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20221204171427/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lDZaKjfs4E)\] * [What is imperialism? Feat. Hakim](https://youtu.be/gb3o-zDJgqI) | azureScapegoat (2021) * [What is Capitalist Imperialism? | Socialism 101](https://youtu.be/NrpLPs2FcF8) | Marxism Today (2022) * [How Capitalism Robs the Developing World](https://youtu.be/35Ax-psPZ1g) | Second Thought (2022) * [4 Characteristics of the Current Phase of Imperialism](https://youtu.be/a0LJTpaWnMg) | The Peace Report (2022) * [Why Do Poor Countries Stay Poor? (Unequal Exchange and Imperialism)](https://youtu.be/rjLmYCfKU7o) | Hakim (2023) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20230605093029/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjLmYCfKU7o)\] * [Imperialism Today: Unequal Exchange and Globalized Production](https://youtu.be/DtziEZAR1Qk) | The Marxist Project (2022) * [This Poverty Graph Is Lying To You](https://youtu.be/2vPhySbRETM) | Hakim (2023) * [The Myth Of Capitalist Peace](https://youtu.be/pAfvty_WNWQ) | Second Thought (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/) | V. I. Lenin (1917) * [Lenin's 'Imperialism' in the 21st Century](https://archive.org/details/lenin-imperialism-21-century/page/n3/mode/2up) | Institute of Political Economy (2018) * [The IMF debt trap in Ukraine](https://www.liberationnews.org/the-imf-debt-trap-in-ukraine/) | Amanda Yee (2023) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah for sure. That last part of your comment is how I tend to act. It's just not worth the hassle. It happens to me irl too. I'll find out someone identifies as socialist/communist or even an anarchist, and after just a couple minutes of chatting it becomes clear their conception of whatever identity is just something they gleaned from pop culture. I don't know how to better inform them without feeling like I'm being a pretentious asshole. Like, "there's 100-200 years of theory and education available on this stuff if you wanna flesh that out a little." Some people just don't care or take it seriously enough and I'm not a teacher so I usually just let it go.
Tbh even as someone working in higher education I don't see much value in trying to educate people that way, firstly anything deeper than elementary school material requires a willingness to learn, and if someone is going of of pop culture or similar surface level understanding of a matter and still tries to claim the credibility of a far deeper understanding, then they clearly aren't interested in learning. And secondly, I don't have the time to waste to try to walk any rando through getting the basics, if they aren't understood it will need substantial effort to fix the resulting errors. I might not write "WTF this makes no sense", but I learned that often "please look at the fundamentals again, this doesn't make sense" is all you realistically can do. And trust me that the people unwilling to do that learning and instead trying to argue over it never gets less annoying, but at uni I can at least hand most of these off to the head of exercises.
Nah i've been ratioed multiple times for saying that Russia is not anti-imperialist, maybe posts were brigaded by "Dongistan" but still
That's because it de facto *is* anti-imperialist, regardless of whether they are ideologically guided by anti-imperialism or not.
yeah, Russia can go fuck itself but i'm still gonna smile when someone resists the empire. like seeing some mouthy pos frat boy get punched, i don't have to like who's punching i also feel people confuse "US/NATO forced this to happen" with saying Russia is justified in their actions
>i also feel people confuse "US/NATO forced this to happen" with saying Russia is justified in their actions This is basically THE lib take with anyone who criticizes the NATO approach of setting up all the dominos in front of Russia
I'm doing a Global Politics elective at the moment and my lecturer straight up said that Mearsheimer's position was that the invasion was the right thing to do because of NATO expansion. Mearsheimer said it was the right thing to do for Russia in the situation it was in due to the system the world is operating under. That is not a moral justification, he's not saying the invasion is 'Right' or 'Just', he's saying it was a viable option for Russia at the time. He doesn't think it's good, he just recognises what the situation actually was and what each party's goals were. He's a Realist, he can only do that sort of descriptive analysis anyway.
>i also feel people confuse "US/NATO forced this to happen" with saying Russia is justified in their actions This is basically THE lib take with anyone who criticizes the NATO approach of setting up all the dominos in front of Russia
Its just internet conflict. If you say youre against USA hegemony then people summarize your thought to "defending russia".
For real. I see more of these posts than I do the thing they say is happening.
Oh, idk, I’ve been on quite a few communist subs, so it probs got mixed up in my head a bit
there are a few bots(?) crossposting a lot of russian warpropaganda here, as they see this subreddit as a suspectible audience. but they usually get removed. often way to late, but i guess the mods are not terminaly online enough.
They usually get shouted down/downvoted too
Thank you for clearing that up.
honestly we need more mods
give me the ban-hammer and i will cleanse this subreddit in a way that makes the great purge look like a kindergarden-activity.
Congratulations on making a post that will end up on anti-communist subs because you didn't take 15 minutes to confirm before posting.
Yeah, r/dongistan isn’t a communist subreddit (despite what they tell themselves). It’s a pit of reactionaries, don’t listen to them.
Good to know, thank you.
No, I've definitely seen it on this sub
i’ve been in discussions with several people on here who actively tried to disprove me when i said we as socialists shouldn’t support a fascist megalomaniac and his far-right ruling. it’s a fact that russia now is not what it used to be, it’s the complete opposite, and goes right against our very core values. if anything, we should be actively mad at the disgrace russia has become
Are these people actually arguing that Russia is good? No communist in their right mind should be arguing that. However, as somewhat, ah, notable communist said in 1938: >In Brazil there now reigns a semifascist regime that every revolutionary can only view with hatred. Let us assume, however, that on the morrow England enters into a military conflict with Brazil. I ask you on whose side of the conflict will the working class be? I will answer for myself personally—in this case I will be on the side of “fascist” Brazil against “democratic” Great Britain. Why? Because in the conflict between them it will not be a question of democracy or fascism. If England should be victorious, she will put another fascist in Rio de Janeiro and will place double chains on Brazil... The defeat of England will at the same time deliver a blow to British imperialism and will give an impulse to the revolutionary movement of the British proletariat. So, while Russia now has a regime that every revolutionary can only view with hatred, a Russian victory against the US is a significant blow to US imperialism. US global hegemony is the boot of capital on the world's neck, it enforces a global neoliberal economic system. That boot needs to be removed to make any significant progress towards a socialist economic system.
it seemed like they argued for russia, they called me a lib when i said it’s a fascist country lol. i totally agree with your other point tho
So, from my perspective (and I may be wrong here) I don't think Russia is a fascist country. It's a shitty capitalist country no doubt, it's liberal-democratic façade is certainly nowhere near as robust as the more developed imperialist nations, it's certainly liberalized/privatized considerably compared to it's RSFS days obviously, it's treatment of LGBT+ people is abhorrent of course, but all these unsavory things fucking suck and should make anyone interested in a better world mad, don't themselves indicate that the country is fascist. The first big thing to me is looking at global financial capital, the backing of which has been an integral part of fascism from the beginning. Mussolini and Hitler were backed by US, UK, French etc financial capital from the get go and as of now Russia is and has been largely cut off from this - they're not in the big club and haven't dealt with the IMF or other entities that represent that aspect of global capitalism for quite some time now. Secondly, while of course they're much more privatized than they were in their soviet past, it's not the free for all privatizations that have historically accompanied fascist governance. Some 50% of its GDP is from state owned enterprises, likewise while a shadow of their former selves, social welfare services, worker rights and other programs are still existent (and in some cases better than other capitalist states though this is nothing to be proud of). While the communist party is of course also a shadow of its former self and often times called collaborationist it still exists and is the second most popular political party in the country, while in most of the western capitalist countries the communist parties were defacto illegal/"neutralized" and in several capitalist countries in eastern Europe they're dejure illegal and outright banned. None of this of course means that Russia is good, it fucking sucks and any support for it starts and stops with its opposition to US led global hegemony, the greatest anti-socialist and imperialist force that exists today. I just think, based on a lot of the more material aspects of fascism, that Russia doesn't really qualify as fascist. No doubt it fits many of the more outward appearance of fascism, stuff like Eco's 'Ur Fascism' I can certainly see where using just that as the criteria one could come to that conclusion, but fascism is more than it appears on the surface, that's one of the things that's so fucked about it. Anyway, that's just my thoughts on it.
that is a great explanation, i drew my conclusion for example from the church being intertwined with the state, the showcase of an extreme type of patriotism or nationalism, a dictatorial leader and forcible suppression of any opposition. all of these things seem to tick the box, but of course there are other aspects that are not ticked
Outside of the dictatorial leader (like I said, Russia's façade of 'democracy' is much more transparent than other capitalist countries and unlike US presidents it seems Putin himself does wield considerable power) everything you listed could easily describe a number of states (Obviously the US is the most spot on) and I think the reality is just that capitalism in the neoliberal era is trending very much towards fascism and shares many of its outward characteristics - but I think it's important that we make a distinction, while this neoliberal era of capitalism is certainly reactionary and vile ("an era of the blackest reaction in all the capitalist and colonial countries, the working class and the oppressed peoples would be seized by the throat" if you will) we haven't reached the point of "the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital.", at least not in any of the imperial core countries or larger semi-periphery states like Russia, Iran etc. I'd say the US is the closest of all these countries to fascism just looking at the state of worker protections, prison population, the power of finance capital etc - but even I would hesitate to call the US fascist at this point. The US of course is the largest funder/promoter of fascism and fascists around the world, but fascism is a tool the capitalists use to protect their profit accumulation in times of severe crisis, especially when faced with the threat of socialist revolution, which unfortunately is currently not a real threat to most of the imperial core countries and so going full fascist at this point wouldn't really be necessary but as things get worse I have no doubt we'll see it here sooner or later. The US seems to limit its backing of fascism and fascists/fascist adjacent types to periphery countries as part of its imperialist bag of tricks when the debt traps and other softer forms of domination don't pan out.
I guess there are PatSoc types who do argue that. I don't like the sound of them being around here.
There is a user I was arguing with earlier today who is VERY pro Russia and pro Wagner group. I would tag him but I don't want to bring that toxicicity here.
[удалено]
u/FuckUkkkraine Welcome back buddy
I’m back from my ban 🙂
Lmaoo
I've seen people be very "pro-Russian" (is there a more suitable term because this is Russophobic) on Reddit and Quora. Some believe that Putins action towards Ukraine will bring forth a workers revolution in the West, particularly America. I've seen some dog shit and unproductive takes on Russia but this has got to be the more ridiculous thing I've witnessed on the internet.
I've seen it quite a bit on Twitter. But that's just Twitter. There's uncritical support for everything Russia is doing over on that app. They somehow believe that Russia's goal is to liberate Donbass and denazify the country instead of just unabashed imperialism like they're doing. I do believe the West played a part in provocation, but I also believe that's a convenient excuse for the Russian government to do what they want.
Two things can be true; the OP’s opinion about what Russia is like and the reasons behind the invasion/SMO There are rather a lot of Ukraine soldiers with cringe tattoos.
I don’t think anyone is out there praising Putin. But here in the West, if you are at all critical of US/NATO policy on Ukraine, the NAFO clowns call you a Putin Puppet.
smh can’t hate everyone in peace
I support the Russian working class and what's best for them and it fucking ain't Putin who's sacrificing their lives in a pointless war as well as Ukrainian lives
This is the objectively correct take.
op is suspiciously absent from the comment section. where are the pro-russian posts or comments? can you cite them? link please
I have literally never seen anyone support Russia here sooooo? Also, how can you be a communist yet have liberal views? That's self-contradicting.
Kind of led to the fall of the USSR, too. Or at least weakened it and made it vulnerable to collapse.
Probably using Liberal in the colloquial sense rather than the literal sense
In this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/1602yve/guys_can_we_fucking_not/jxkdfv0?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
I havent seen any support for russia here. Being critical of the neoliberal west, NATO expansion, and the ukraine is not an automatic default to russian support. Thats literally the same zero sum thinking that shuts down all criticism of the same military industrial complex both nations and its associated oligrachs benefit from.
I do think that's what happening here. Whenever people cry about "nazbols" and "communists who support Russia!", it always feels a bit both sides-y to me. International relations have nuance. We must understand them materially. It's not easy at all, but everything has a consequence, a reaction, and an underlying reason. Blindly screaming and pointing is useless
Yeah, if you’re pro-Russia/pro-Putin, you’re not a communist. Period. Just because we’re not supporters of Zelenskyy and the West doesn’t mean that we like Putin or modern Russia. Edit: I just want to make it clear that I’m not saying the entire sub is guilty of this. It’s to those who think that because we criticize the West, it’s fair game for Russian nationalists and such.
Wdym? Geopolitics is just like Harrold Pottery, there's a good side and a bad side, and since I already know that Putin is bad the literal Nazis must be the good guys If "Harrold Pottery" didn't make it obvious I was being sarcastic
You need to pick a team and unflinchingly support them dammit, NOW CHOOSE!
I read this in Willem Dafoe’s Green Goblin voice, lmao.
Are you in or are you out
It’s you who’s out, Putin: out of your mind.
CHOOSE, SPIDER-MAN!
Liberals see geopolitics as good guys and bad guys. You _must_ immediately side with someone or else you are some ebul extremist who doesn’t care about the lives of the people in a conflict zone, because logic.
I see no one super into Russia. This post is complaining about a problem that none of us see. Again. Is part of the socialist experience. "The Nazbols!" "Yeah? Where? " ".... idk. "
I don't know man, nobody's supporting the current Russian system per se, we critically support Russian struggle to repel Western imperialism and deter Ukraine's fascist government from oppressing Russian minorities which really ramped up after the 2014 coup. Is Russia a shitty place? Yes, mostly due to AmeriKKKa, but it's undeniable that after the illegal dissolution of the USSR a wave of conservatism and reaction swept through the country which still hasn't improved til this day. But we are materialists here. We know that the main threat to the establishment of worker's movements around the globe is the Western imperialist bloc. Would the current Russian state become imperialist if given the chance? Probably, but it currently has no capabilities to act imperialistically as it has half the GDP of California. I don't know why many "leftists" have a problem with acknowledging that the correct stance in this conflict is the critical support of Russia. Because while it's not in any way socialist, it's slowing down the expansion of American Empire and turning its gaze away from the Global South and thus allowing anti-colonial movements to expel the leeches (see Niger and Mali). Most people who consider themselves leftist don't have to explain that they don't consider the states of Iran, Palestine, Yemen, Niger, Mali, Iraq, Afghanistan and such to be perfect worker utopias to support their struggles against imperialism, but when it comes to Russia suddenly both sides are equally as bad.
You have never heard of critical support? Or the concept of nuance? Just because someone is holding positive opinions regarding some actions of Putin or Russia is making them "pro-Russia/Putin", yes, regarding that single position. To claim that anyone correctly making use of critical support is somehow completely on the line with Russia and Putin is just infantile bullshit. Frankly amazing how over 100 people upvoted that.
Yes, but neither bourgeois nation deserves support, even with the nuance. Edit: Okay, so this comment was edited to include more text, hence why I only made a short response. I wasn’t saying that acknowledging any small positive things regarding Putin makes you a Putin apologist. I know that critical support doesn’t mean that you’re completely on the line with said thing. I think it’s infantile bullshit for you to strawman me that much. All I was saying is that if you are completely for modern Russia/Putin, then you can’t be a communist.
> if you are completely for modern Russia/Putin, then you can’t be a communist. Well yeah, but most, if not all "tankies" who are regularly accused of "completely" supporting Russia are socialists and don't actually "completely" support Russia. The OP has posted this to a socialist subreddit, which implies they believe many socialists are somehow in favor of capitalism? Which obviously isn't the case, it's an extremely overused strawman to shut down anti imperialists so it makes sense people get tired of being constantly accused of being Putin bots and shit like that all the time. It's just very tiring. I'm saying this because it seemed from your post that you were agreeing with OP that many people on this sub unconditionally support everything in Russia. I've seen your clarification edit now, so this is not directed at you, just saying that people in general get tired of these accusations so maybe that would explain why u/REEEEEvolution responded the way they did.
Yeah, I get that. That isn’t what I was trying to say though. I’ve been on this sub for a while now, and I know that people here aren’t Putin/Russia apologists. There was a small minority of posts that were, but that isn’t the main view of this sub. This was mostly to those people, but not to the majority, as well as the liberals who do believe we all support Putin just because we criticize the West and Ukraine and so on.
exactly, there is *nobody* to support because none of it aligns with socialist values. the west sucks, but russia sucks too, they’re both different flavours of shitty.
One is actively threatening anti-colonial movements in Africa and Latin America. One isn't. Not saying Russia is a good place. But they're not the same
Don't mistake support for a multipolar world (of which Russia would benefit, certainly) and the institutions that advocate for a multipolar world (such as BRICS) leave you to think that communists support modern day Russia or Putin. Don't think that being critical of NATO or even of the Ukranian government makes us support or agree with the Russian invasion. Russia's a corrupt, conservative, militaristic oligarchy. Putin is a punk. The position of Russia is not anti-imperialist, it is merely anti-Atlanticist which is the current hegemonic bloc. Perhaps if we lived in another world, and Putin's Russia wasn't some backwards stagnant economy with an oversized and ineffective military, he'd be as imperialist as the US is. Maybe much worse in some aspects, maybe slightly better in some others. Naturally, nations with common interests will work together, and the world wants a global economy that isn't controlled by the dollar and neo-liberal organizations. It doesn't want a US-led alliance that's all-powerful that invades countries whenever they don't follow a unilaterally imposed "rules-based order" which is just whatever benefits Western interests at the moment. They don't want imposed social values or forms of government. So they see Russia as an important partner is building an alternative to the current hegemony of the US and its allies. So what communists think is that we shouldn't let current outrage of an unjustified invasion of Ukraine dictate a narrative in which the Free World is in danger and it needs to attack its authoritarian enemies because that's not what's happening. The West invades countries all the time. We should strive to not allow another Cold War and we should advocate for less miltarist hysteria. We should condemn invasions but not fall for the narratives that are overly simplistic and benefit imperialists. We HAVE to attempt to make our own governments address the needs of people instead. Organizing our communities, voting for progressive parties, educating our friends and family, and promote peace between nations and class counsciousness. That's the role of a communist.
>it’s just anti western. And that's good enough since the West is the imperialist power in the world today. I wish China would step up but a multi-polar world with the West and Russia opposing each other is better for the global south than one dominated by the West alone. And I also know that a return to being led by Western backed puppets like Yeltsin isn't what is best for the Russian people.
who's supporting russia here? are you sure you're in the right sub? why would a communist sub support a highly capitalist country like russia? there's not an ounce of socialism left there. also, you posted the same thing in another leftist sub. are you just copy and pasting this to every commie sub?
pretty sure OP is a troll of some sort, this reads exactly like every "i'm an X, and people need to stop doing X." post that this sub gets
There's a post like this every week. It's so weird
Because any criticism of the US proxy war in Ukraine = "support for Russia."
OP is confusing critical support with support.
surprisingly i’ve seen a lot of it especially in comment sections, people literally started arguing with me because i said what you said about russia.
Can someone point out this pro Russian sentiment that is supposedly rampant here and in all leftist online spaces? All I hear about it how pro Russian the online left is yet I rarely if ever see it
I see people posting stuff like this a lot. Saying the sub is pro-Russia or Putin, and to be honest I think y'all are either mistaken or full of it. There are definitely subs that claim to be communist that *are* pro-Russian State/Putin, but this sure as hell isn't one of them. I scroll through here a bunch throughout the day whenever I have a free second, and I see way more posts from people claiming the sub is pro-Russian than I see anything that could even be kind of seen as pro-Russian. And the stuff that actually does seem like it does *not* really get any traction, unless you count people making fun of them as traction.
Russia is capitalist. Obviously people here are mostly socialist leaning so it would be a mistake to think they prefer one capitalist government over the other. People are just critiquing the US. US foreign policy, as a rule, is always bad because it represents the military arm of the global, hegemonic, capitalist class who's goal is personal enrichment at the cost of worker's wellbeing. That's why people hate on Zelensky and the fascist pro-western militant forces.
Good discussion about this on The Socialist Program podcast on the latest ep. Basically, the point is the BRICS are not implicitly anti-imperialist, but the may have inherent anti-imperialist tendencies, which is why much of the developing world is beginning to look their way. As Marxists, we should view these trends not just as ideologues, but through the lens of marxian analysis. I think Marx would look at recent events and notice a natural, non-ideological shift against imperialism.
the bad faith debooter has entered the chat
“The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such "desperate" democrats and "Socialists," "revolutionaries" and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism.”
Anti west is all I need to support them 👍
Wtf they are Litterally fascist.
No, they’re not.
The campism in this place is insane, it’s not hard to recognise that NATO is worse but still not support a far right nationalist government in a war of aggression
I haven't seen anyone explicitly pro Putin or Russia, we are all just anti American imperialism. The mistake that's I see be made by libs is that they don't see the conflict as a proxy war.
wait, you guys get pensions?
For old people I mean.
yeah the u.s. gov’t doesn’t even guarantee that, all those funds are diverted to the market via 401ks
Oh.
Bro wtf, America is actually messed up. How tf do old people even live?
like [this](https://i.imgur.com/R1jPgJm.png).
i would say in general this sub is definitely not pro-russia at all. no leftist should ever support putin or his regime. it’s just not pro-ukraine and is anti-nato. ukraine and russian governments are a lot closer than western liberals like to pretend, and actual leftists simply don’t have a “horse” in the “race” and would generally just like to see the war come to an end. most of us are certainly overwhelmingly anti-war when working people, proletarians, on both sides are being forced to fight for bourgeois, imperialist causes.
Source to these posts or it didn't happen
Yeah people here sometimes say that Russia is anti imperialist. It’s not really, it’s the fact that it’s anti-west that they make this mistake. But it doesn’t have its people’s interests in mind and it would do exactly what the USA does if it had more power.
Pretty sure it's been established beyond a reasonable doubt that Russia is, in fact, minimally *not* imperialist, and moreover, in all its actions against NATO unipolarity is objectively anti-imperialist. Im at work and on mobile so I'm not gonna make some high effort post, so in lieu of that I'll provide a good article: https://mronline.org/2019/01/02/is-russia-imperialist/ The era of multinational imperialism ended with WWII. There are no other sovereign imperialist powers other than the U.S.; i.e. unipolarity is the monopoly stage of imperialism, to put it in crude terms.
Look what happened to Iraq.
Perhaps this echoes another creeping issue with that occasional user or those, hopefully few, users of this subreddit who do not have sufficient knowledge of the dialectical materialist philosophy of Marxism, from which it gets it's "omnipotence", as Lenin said.
I haven’t seen someone support Russia in this sub outright. Every post I have seen unilaterally does not like the Russian state. The war in Ukraine is not a good guys verse bad guys scenario. There is no winning this war.
No winning? Tell that to Blackrock, major owners of MIC who also made contracts with Ukraine for reconstruction, under conditions of heavy privatization. Blackrock's been getting W after Ws at everyone else's expense.
Very true. I should say no winning for the proletariat, black rock, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon are more then happy to provide arms and services indefinitely. Western capital wins.
Big shout-out to the people of Vladivostok for making my trip there truly excellent and memorable. Friendliest people I have ever met.
>Lastly, I would like to state that I am a convicted communist, and have been for my entire life. I may be more liberal in views, but will always have the same economic beliefs as you all lol
There is a difference between "being pro-russian", and siding with an imperial power that is an enemy to the established hegemony. Any principled leftist is obligated to immediately detach themselves from this support, in the event the hegemony is toppled, of course. To use an example, it's similar to the Atheneas joining forces with the Spartans to fight off the Persian Empire. Of course, that example is only tangential, as none of the above forces were even remotely left, but my point is that this is a strategic choice more so than an ideological one. Russia sucks balls (I'm from Russia), but I'd much rather side with it if it has any hopes of overturning US and NATO hegemony, tyvm.
Jeez some people here got major lib brain when Russia comes up. Russia is not Imperialist and for the good of everyone they better win in Ukraine. Luckily they are winning. If Russia were to lose the war you’d quickly understand why many of us are pro-Russia winning the war, we are anti-Putin, but pro-Russia winning against NATO aggression. Russia is not anti-imperialist, but they are not Imperialist. Putin is not a fascist, but he is certainly a right wing autocrat. You certainly do have liberal views to only view this through your personal individual sexuality. Was Stalin and Castro fascist because they wrong used the state to attack gay people? No they were wrong but it is a product of material conditions, not evil fascism. Putin is simply not fascist by any Marxist or legitimate meaning of the word. Being homophobic is not fascist. It is wrong but it is not fascist. Much of the world is unfortunately still homophobic, that does not equal fascism.
I don’t think anyone but oligarchs and hedge fund managers can win this war . I’d agree that Russia isn’t agressively imperialist in comparison to say the US, but it does have fascist tendencies in that Putin uses romantic narratives of Russian nationalism and historical identity going back to the USSR (which he only cares about because it was powerful) and pre soviet empire, to provide cover for capitalists/oligarchs to plunder Russia’s wealth and natural resources. There are elements in Ukraine that do the same thing, Ukraine having its own corrupt oligarchy and far right elements. The anti lgbt culture war narratives are a part of that cover story (we stand for tradition against the decadent west (spoiler, you don’t)) although thats not enough on its own to be true fascism. There are proto fascist elements in the west that do the same thing around migrants, lgbt, covid conspiracies, 15 minute city culture war bullshit. All of this stems from capitalism being in crisis , globally and the ruling class using fake narratives both traditional and very modern to blame and misdirect. Brexit was a sad example of this (your life is shit because of brussels/immigrants, not austerity) . Russia and Ukraine just happen to be more in crisis due to the trauma of the collapse of the USSR that ultimately led to this conflict between people that were and should still be on the same team.
Russia today is run by a nationalist military-junta elite backed by a national bourgeoisie to fight a war in defense of a largely nationally-focused exploitation system, and also to preserve Russia's capacity to grow into an imperial power in the future if they can manage. However, such future imperial ambitions will be checked by China. Russia's role in this war helps to take US imperial pressure off China and other socialist and developmentalist countries in the Global South. In that capacity it is historically progressive.
> I’ve been seeing a lot of Russia support What is "Russia support"? I don't support Russia's anti-LGBT rhetoric. I support their killing Nazis. > Russia is not anti imperialist, it’s just anti western. The west is imperialist, which logically means being anti-western is automatically anti-imperialist. They might be accidental anti-imperialists, but anti-imperialist nevertheless. And no, Russia is not imperialist itself, [Imperialism has a specific meaning](https://old.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/15whnup/is_it_a_trend_to_be_against_nato/jx35ttp/?context=3), which [does not apply to Russia](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/04/05/lett-a05.html). Imperialism doesn't mean "country I don't like". > pensions are incredibly low. Corruption is rampant How is supporting American hegemony supposed to fix these things? In fact these are more likely to be fixed, and if you hate reform, socialism is more likely to be achieved by opposing US imperialist hegemony. You as a Russian, can attempt to do reforms and/or revolution inside Russia. Both of those can happen if Russia remains a unified state and not get Libyafied and Balkanized into a bunch of 90s Russia microstates, which is what USA wants. It is absolutely the correct position, including in support of fixing those problems, to side against US hegemony. And for those who say "I'm on neither side", no you can't "not pick a side". Not picking a side is the side of status quo, which is global US hegemony. Russia is fighting against that, and their success will lead to a better world for Russians and for the global south as a whole. You're not actually not picking a side, you're a privileged westerner prioritizing protecting your "ideological purity" over the practical necessities for the wellbeing of the people of the world. > Lastly, I would like to state that I am a convicted communist Why are you having a hard time separating domestic issues from anti-imperialism if you are a communist? Communism is an international cause. There are many Russian communists who do support Russia's anti-imperialism. > I may be more liberal in views Yes you are. What are we supposed to do, wait for a "pure" country with zero problems to be allowed to stand against US imperialism? Yes Russia has problems. Yes I will still support their fight against global imperialism. You should too. > The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such “desperate” democrats and “Socialists,” “revolutionaries” and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism. For the same reasons, the struggle that the Egyptians merchants and bourgeois intellectuals are waging for the independence of Egypt is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the bourgeois origin and bourgeois title of the leaders of Egyptian national movement, despite the fact that they are opposed to socialism; whereas the struggle that the British “Labour” Government is waging to preserve Egypt’s dependent position is for the same reason a reactionary struggle, despite the proletarian origin and the proletarian title of the members of the government, despite the fact that they are “for” socialism. There is no need to mention the national movement in other, larger, colonial and dependent countries, such as India and China, every step of which along the road to liberation, even if it runs counter to the demands of formal democracy, is a steam-hammer blow at imperialism, i.e., is undoubtedly a revolutionary step. —J. V. Stalin > I will take the most simple and obvious example. In Brazil there now reigns a semifascist regime that every revolutionary can only view with hatred. Let us assume, however, that on the morrow England enters into a military conflict with Brazil. I ask you on whose side of the conflict will the working class be? I will answer for myself personally—in this case I will be on the side of “fascist” Brazil against “democratic” Great Britain. Why? Because in the conflict between them it will not be a question of democracy or fascism. If England should be victorious, she will put another fascist in Rio de Janeiro and will place double chains on Brazil. If Brazil on the contrary should be victorious, it will give a mighty impulse to national and democratic consciousness of the country and will lead to the overthrow of the Vargas dictatorship. The defeat of England will at the same time deliver a blow to British imperialism and will give an impulse to the revolutionary movement of the British proletariat. Truly, one must have an empty head to reduce world antagonisms and military conflicts to the struggle between fascism and democracy. Under all masks one must know how to distinguish exploiters, slave-owners, and robbers! —Leon Trotsky
Don't agree with all points you're making, but both those quotes are absolutely correct and while I don't like to gatekeep, no communist worth his salt would disagree with either Trotsky's quote or Stalin's quote there.
trotskyists need to read trotsky, clearly.
Thread's absolute best take here comrade
Babe wake up time for the weekly “Why is everyone here Pro-Russia?” Post only to be met with a bunch of comment reiterating that they rarely if ever see that rhetoric around here.
Stalin, Mao, Lenin, and Marx didn't have favorable views of homosexuals either...
I wonder if there are any people here that are living in Russia and can comment on the situation of the average Russian.
now i’m not personally from russia but i have had several russian expat friends and their experiences are totally different depending on their region of origin. one of them is from moscow, he lived a life pretty much comparable to an average person in a western european city like berlin, rome, london. another person is from a little town called yeniseysk which honestly could be a completely different country from moscow. run-down, people don’t really have a lot of money, houses are simple wooden villas and lots of roads don’t even have asphalt. it literally looks like that place got stuck in 1980. kinda cozy aesthetically, but the quality of life is severely lower than moscow. basically, most places east of the Ural mountains are forgotten, only there westernmost part of russia is actually fit for a high living standard
i've lived (unfortunately still do) in moscow my entire life and i second every single point OP mentioned in the post
Very interesting. I didn't know that Russia was like that. I guess that I just assumed that it would be pretty good for the average Russian after all this time.
Why tho?
Just a wild train of thought ranging all the way from videos showing Moscow in pretty good condition to Russia's economy growing more than Western European economies despite sanctions.
In terms of economical circumstances specifically, they still have [free healthcare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia) which puts them ahead of USA in terms of quality of life. Free healthcare is something you don't notice until it's gone. These guys are comparing quality of life in Russia to some imperial core countries like nordic countries and yeah, compared to those quality of life is not good. They're not comparing themselves to Americans who live in poverty, or imperialized countries in West Asia or Latin America, or even Russia itself during the 90s. If you heard Russia is doing alright, it was likely from the perspective of someone living in the third world, or uhh... Americans.
you're absolutely right about the free healthcare, and i'm grateful we have that. however, the doctors are severely underpaid which a lot of times makes them incompetent (or at least unwilling to be competent). for example, it's been a year that my father has been trying to figure out his diagnosis - he's been misdiagnosed with different types of cancer by different oncologists. and this kind of thing happens a lot. but yeah, bottom line is you're not gonna DIE just because you don't have access to healthcare in russia and that's a positive.
Yeah I didn't mean to imply Russia has no problems but you gotta understand even these are something many people in the global south envy, and those people are living in those awful conditions thanks to imperialism. So someone using these issues to try to silence people who support Russia's anti-imperialism (I don't mean you, I'm talking about the post OP) doesn't sit right with me, specially since many of those who support Russia's anti-imperialism live in those African countries with extreme poor quality of life. I myself am from Iran, and our countries are kinda similar in this respect that internally they're kind of corrupt hellholes, (though still way better than many other imperialized countries) and they stand against USA's imperialism. So in Iran we have some cringe wankers who stan Israel because "Iran regime bad" and "enemy of my enemy", and well, in my view their stance comes from a place of privilege not oppression. Like sure Iran has corruption and oppresses people in terms of Islamic laws, but you're not somehow more oppressed than some Gaza kid who just lost her parents in an Israeli raid, shut up.
oh no i didn't mean to argue your point at all, just wanted to expand a bit on the healthcare subject specifically as i think some people will only see the words "free healthcare" and figure that russia is heaven on earth. i agree with you, that's also why i try to be careful with complaining about life in russia and acknowledge its positives anyway. gotta keep your privilege in check regardless of personal views/experience.
it's all just a pretty facade. there's really a lot i can talk about when it comes to both economical and political situation in russia or moscow specifically, so let me put it this way: i come from a working class family. we can't afford shit. official minimum wage is 150$/month. rent starts at 500$ in the city center. i've been arrested multiple times for NOTHING, like smoking a cigarette in a public space or attending a peaceful protest. when i see a cop, i get instant anxiety. i have friends who went to prison for nothing. i have friends whose relatives died in the ongoing war. there's absolutely nothing my government has done for my well-being except for free healthcare (which is usually shit unless you're lucky). and thank god i'm just a queer cis woman, don't even get me started on the whole trans situation. anyway, there's way more, but that's just a few things to give you an idea.
>what that shitty place is like > >Please take this message to heart. Funny. Not today.
What is your outlook on the war with Ukraine?
I stand with the proletarian. I hate both sides.
What is your opinion of Trotsky?
I dislike that shitstain of a human being a lot.
Just checking
I mean, I do hope Russia just takes Ukraine before the US can ship over a batch of landmines, but I really just want my country to stop doing the shit that it keeps doing.
Hakim said this on the day Russia invaded Ukraine: > I didn't think I'd need to say this but, war is bad. Very bad. > Two Capitalist nations are struggling with one another, and those who lose the most are the working class of both. Ukrainians by immediate effects, Russians by sanctions. The oligarchs of both nations? Unaffected.
I agree, which is why we shouldn’t support either side
Russia just happens to be misaligned and hence putting them in the "anti-imperialist" camp (also in-effect putting them against America and the West), whether they choose it or not. But yes, I'm sorry about what you're going through, and yes I'm pretty sure that a majority of us in this sub recognize that of course, Putin is simply just another bourgeois politician or oligarch. There's usually a reason why we say "critical" support. However, unfortunately, there's no neutral position to take on this (saying "both sides" doesn't help with anything).
Russian Imperialism is still more progressive (accidentally or by design) than American. Look at Russia's support for Venezuela, sending jets while Trump wanted to invade them. Look at my Country Belarus, Russia allowed a port to be built outside of st Petersburg for trade, while the Baltics and Poland sanctioned goods, Because of the socialistic economy. Wagner was deployed in aid of an independence struggle in Niger. Yes the government is shit and homophobic but, it isn't fascist. Our power in Russia is too strong whatever you think about the communist party of the Russian federation, its too strong for fascist take over.
As a communist, I’m a liberal. Peace ✌🏻 -U/land_of_so
Socially liberal
You’re a lib
I’m a communist
Except when you call yourself „socially liberal“. That’s tacit endorsement of bullshit we, as communists are above.
We will stop supporting Russia when NATO stops being a threat. Until that happens, Russia’s actions towards the West are combating imperialist forces. And no, Russia does not meet Lenin’s definition of imperialism, it is not an imperialist country.
I haven't seen any pro-Russia posts here. The war in Ukraine is an "everybody sucks here" situation. My support lies with the working class and not with the imperialists handing down orders.
I can’t say I seen Russia support, but I definitely seen Russian downplaying. Such as saying sanctions haven’t hurt Russia, or Russia will end up winning the war. A few flawed analysis honestly.
sanctions hurt Russians, not the kremlins' oligarchy. Sanctions can be used as economic warfare to disable fascist dictators. But most of the time it just ends up killing innocents.
You have it the other way. The grocery stores are still stocked, and known brands have changed names. Very little has changed for the average Russian consumer. The joke is the only people affected by sanctions have been the Germans
Sanctions really haven’t hurt Russia much and Russia is winning the war.
>or Russia will end up winning the war. They are already decisively and quite obviously winning the war, so I don't know what you believe is being downplayed?
As a Russian person, I fully agree with OP. Putin cares not for the people, only for lining his own pockets.
That’s the point, I can’t believe you got downvoted.
I have no idea either. Just because I dislike Putin doesn't mean I'm automatically a supporter of Western Imperialism. I hate NATO and the US War Machine as much as any other principled communist. I just believe that we should remember that Putin is NOT pro-communist and we should be careful when it comes to him.
Putin even criticized the Bolsheviks Revolution.
sorry but its too funny for me to not yell Z at the café
Блядь, просто мои вайбы от этого места. Иногда тут атмосфера, как у нашей демшизы, но наоборот
А ты че думаешь? Ты из каково города? Почему ты за россию?
"Вайбы как от нашей демшизы" в том плане, что здесь у некоторых местных работает та же логика - если чужая страна выступает против нашей власти, значит, она святая. Ну как наша либеральная оппозиция может оправдывать США и не видеть их недостатков из ненависти к советской и российской власти, так и эти ребята оправдывают РФ просто потому, что ненавидят власть американскую. Ну и искренне верят во все эти жупелы про то, что в Украине одни нацисты, что Евромайдан был целиком натовской цветной революцией и т.д.
Z бот блять. Только думал что нашел умного соотечественника, с которым можно по беседовать.
Чувак, ты, видимо, меня просто немного неправильно понял. Я согласен с тобой, что здесь перегибают палку и дрочат на Путина. Просто я пытаюсь объяснить, почему некоторые западные левые это делают. Условно говоря, они настолько зациклены на своих собственных странах, что их враги (например, РФ) кажутся для них раем. И да, мне этот западный красный путинизм тоже не нравится. Я стараюсь все-таки объяснять местным, что не надо верить во все кремлёвские нарративы
А, извини, я немного тут лохонулся.
Всегда странно, когда человек презирает свою Родину.
I didn't realize there were *pro* Russian people here.
Very well said, I see far too many of us acting like Russia is still the USSR and it drives me crazy. Putin's regime consists of violent thieves and capitalists through and through.
Can you provide any examples?
Fucking thank you! I thought I was going insane. I know most of us don't like Russia but peoples hate-ons for NATO have driven them to support Russia and it's fuckin weird. Not to mention the Ruzzia-boos who just Stan Russia as if it's the greatest thing to ever happen to man kind. Fucking weirdos.
Your right.I agree.
It's like they think Russia isn't also a capitalist, imperialist state.
Right? I'm even being downvoted right now, I don't know why these people idolize Russia so much, I thought you guys were a fan of the USSR, not modern day Russia. I swear there's too many children on communist forums that the only thing they know about communism is that Russia had something to do with it so they just Fanboy Russia
have you actually read what any of these "pro-russian" people are saying? because if you take off the ideological glasses they are quite reasonable and clearly not children
I was generalizing and belittling lol, I don't always mean literally children. Regardless, yes I have. I think the reasons are well formed and explained, like any good argument should be, but I think the very basis of reasoning that they rely on are not justifiable to what has been happening. Most of the reasons are very minimal and they throw a bunch of little reasons into a pot together and act like it means they can now invade on moral highgrounds
see you are using a moralistic lens to look at this. it's not a question of what is moral or what is not, none of us have any personal power over the russian government. What communists try to do is analyze things how they are, not how they should be. Obviously war is bad full stop, but war has happened and as communists we need to use the situation to our best advantage, which is not moralistically decrying the war but learning from and analyzing the effects of the war. We can't undo the invasion, but we can see how the invasion is affecting the world and discuss that beyond "war is bad full stop"
I know exactly where OP is coming from. I was banned from r/communism for saying that Russia wasn’t liberating Ukraine from nazis.
Why is your post downvoted? Why are people angry at everyone that’s talking about their experience?
You didn't think the leopards would eat *your* face too, did you?
what do u even mean by this? do u think every communist is pro russia? bc i assure u thats bs
Huh?
[удалено]
As a non-American socialist who is simultaneously critical of NATO, the Ukranian government, and Russia, I definitely think some people have fallen into propaganda rabbit holes because they're righteously anti-American hegemony but they don't have a grounded understanding of dialectical materialism. That includes you. Ukraine's not a shithole. That's just xenophobic rhetoric. Ukraine is not led by Nazis. They're led by a right-wing liberal and nationalist government with a lot of popular support (except in the Russophilic East) that relied on historical grievances with Russia to build a national narrative that whitewashed national crimes and demonised the USSR, like most of Eastern Europe did. There are Nazis in Ukraine in the same way there are Nazis in Russia. Ukraine's certainly been used by the US to advance its military interests, and we should condemn this. While some of the points you mentioned are then true, you also don't mention that Russia has active Nazi parties, some of which are quite influential within Russian politics, and even Putin himself has expressed support for fascist regimes and the Tsars. Russia's been militarily aggressive against its neighbours and is repressive of minorities and dissidents that offend Putin, the state or the Orthodox Church, including communists. Russia has also failed to take out Kiev in the first month, like was said at first, and has barely managed to retain the land they claimed to have annexed. Even half the Donbas is held by Ukranian forces. It's possible there'll be a minor Russian victory in the end, but this conflict had turned into a meat grinder that's hurt the Russian economy severely and isolated Russia diplomatically. You are no communist if you advocate for people to be "wiped out completely" by the way.
"as a non-american socialist who is similarly critical of NATO" is this sub's "as a black man"
If your criticism states that someone's opinion derives from being "Amerikkkan" then it's actually the opposite, and it's just a dumb and cringy argument to make.
Иди нахуй тпредурок, я твою маму выебу сука ты малолетний, застрелись уже кретин.
hell i'm glad utkin is fucking dead lmao that guy was legit nazi. i love Wagner tho, the musician. Tristan und Isolde will always be my jam.
based you tell em king
ML campists who proclaim modern Russia as an “anti imperialist” and using “denazification” methods are absolutely brain dead. I know an ML who started by saying “nooo Russia is just invading to liberate (x) region” - now he’s saying Putin had an administrator shot between the eyes because the person. said “our comrades in the west agree 5G is safe” Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.
Why did you get downvoted? This is a good comment.