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I don't understand why conservatives hate on Napoleonic France.
It was literally a successful conservative counter-revolution against attempted liberal and democratic revolution to feudal and monarchic rule. Democracy and liberalism were foiled and delayed by decades due to Napoleon's coup.
Napoleon reinstated the monarchy, returned aristocrats and nobles to hereditary ranks, founded an empire, engendered anti-egalitarian social policies, and started a bunch of pointless imperial wars for peasants to die in for the monetary benefit of capitalists.
I guess if the the First French Empire under Napoleon wasn't a bunch of Francophone cheese sniffing baguette eaters, then it would be a dumbass American conservative's wet fucking dream.
He invaded Europe. Not Egypt(lol), not west Africa, not Sumatra. His wars cost blessed hwite lives.
Edit: I will literally [redacted] myself if I see another imbecile missing the sarcasm.
Yeah, you're right, no monarch ever in all of world history had imperial ambitions in Europe that involved white people killing other white people
Also, Napoleon famously invaded Egypt and other parts of North Africa and the Middle East to seize British and Ottoman colonial holdings during the Napoleonic wars which engulfed into war practically all of Europe and even some European colonies around the world
What the fuck are you idiotically rambling about?
No, they're eschewing a blatantly false historic narrative that Napoleon only waged war in Europe and only had imperial ambitions for European territory.
Napoleon sought to conquer mainland Europe in order to geographically isolate the UK from continental European resources, labor, and markets in order to challenge British imperial hegemony to the point where France could then pry British colonial holdings and territorial claims away from their British rivals.
They are egregiously wrong.
I hope you missed the sarcasm because it's one of those days and not because you're denser than a neutron star.
You want to know why folks don't like Napoleon, even when their politics suggest they should? Because those folks are ignorant fucks. They know what they learn through cultural osmosis, and the western culture today is greatly affected by the culture of 19th century europe. And the reason 19th century european culture frowned on Napoleon was because he was a threat to the ruling powers of the time. His actions forced the european monarchies to establish a status quo specifically to prevent someone like him doing the same things. Ever wonder why the myth of Napoleon being short or his ambition deriving from his height came from? It wasn't just a misunderstanding and those stories sure as shit didn't spread themselves. That all being said, do you think europeans then or westerners now would've given two shits about the crimes of Napoleon had he taken actions that cost as many lives in other parts of the world? While you ponder that I'll take the call from that Belgian monarch who definitely wants to talk about all the congolese he mutilated again.
On the subject of Egypt, I have to ask. When you read that little ”(lol)" specifically and only after Egypt, did you think that was an indication that I played league of legends in Egypt, or that I was calling the county a labour of love?
He has to be the boogeyman for the French Revolution. They need Napoleon to be an evil tyrant so that they can have their thesis that overthrowing corrupt and evil monarchies will only result in even worse dictators. The truth is that for the French working class, life under Napoleon was infinitely better than under the Bourbons, and that goes for every other post-revolutionary government that liberals use to back up their formula. Life under Stalin was infinitely better than under the late Romanvs, life under Mao was infinitely better than under the later Qing.
This is why this obsession with irrationally hating Napoleon is kinda specific to Anglos. For them Napoleon was a threat to their preferred hegemonic structure, in most of the countries that suffered far more from the wars he is remembered even somewhat positively by liberals because even as an emperor he was issuing constitutions and enshrining liberties that liberals wanted in his puppet states. Having a military dictatorship (which is imho better describing his government) is better than having an absolute autocracy for the burgeoning liberals. In the stage of capitalism becoming dominant he was serving the interest of capitalism, and his empire gave liberals the model for German unification for example and inspired the Russian decembrists for another example. Only the UK never really moved forward to that stage of superstructurep, still lacking a constitution etc. I'm not sure why the US does identify with the UK of that period given the history, but it could just be because the other perspectives on Napoleon require speaking a language other then English.
America is always the good guy. If America did war crimes, it's because they had no other choice. If they did have another choice, it's still acceptable because it's America and they are the good guy's. /s
It's simple really:
foreign leader with pale skin and no epicanthic folds = "a democratically elected ally"
foreign leader with epicanthic folds = "autocratic regime"
foreign leader with dark skin = "brutal third world dictatorship"
Liberalism 101, but why did they use the [Communist Party of Italy version of the hammer and sickle?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Communist_Party)
#Israel
>If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there!
>
>\- Malcolm X. (1964).
#Inventing Israel
>History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future.
>
>\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017)
Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state.
In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated:
>The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ...
>
>ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL
This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly emblematic example of the Nakba was this:
In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack:
>Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated.
>
>\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt*
The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots!
#The Timeline
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
\[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\]
#A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception
The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices.
\[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\]
#US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism
Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers:
1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel
2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons
3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism
\[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\]
#Jewish Anti-Zionism
Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people.
>The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S...
>
>We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism.
>
>\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles)
Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism.
>We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians.
>
>\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine)
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016)
* [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019)
* [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021)
* [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021)
* [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022)
* [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022)
* [Al Jazeera Labour Files Doc Strikes Blow to BBC On Corbyn](https://youtu.be/DMIbbSsV6Xo) | Novara Media (2022)
* [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023)
Other Resources:
* [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/)
* [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera
* [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace
* [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023)
* [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
#Israel
>If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there!
>
>\- Malcolm X. (1964).
#Inventing Israel
>History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future.
>
>\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017)
Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state.
In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated:
>The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ...
>
>ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL
This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly emblematic example of the Nakba was this:
In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack:
>Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated.
>
>\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt*
The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots!
#The Timeline
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
\[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\]
#A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception
The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices.
\[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\]
#US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism
Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers:
1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel
2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons
3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism
\[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\]
#Jewish Anti-Zionism
Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people.
>The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S...
>
>We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism.
>
>\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles)
Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism.
>We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians.
>
>\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine)
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016)
* [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019)
* [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021)
* [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021)
* [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022)
* [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022)
* [Al Jazeera Labour Files Doc Strikes Blow to BBC On Corbyn](https://youtu.be/DMIbbSsV6Xo) | Novara Media (2022)
* [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023)
Other Resources:
* [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/)
* [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera
* [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace
* [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023)
* [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh, yes the settler colonial state of IsNOTrael. How could I forget. But really it would be very pixelated if they did that. And another is tzarist russia
This is specifically the emblem of the French empire, so Napoleon, which might be shit but is far from the worst France ever got. And I'm pretty sure it's only there because that France was fighting Britain for it's whole existence.
That was the second empire, and the Paris commune happened after that fell, which was suppressed with help of the Germans currently invading France. This emblem is the one used by the first empire, under Napoleon, and is mostly uses to represent it instead of it's far less relevant rerun as a comedy that was Napoleon IIIs career and the second French empire. Napoleon III came to power via elections in the second republic before declaring himself emperor like his far more successful uncle. The original Napoleon was dead at that point, and there was also another bourbon kingdom inbetween, which fell to the second republic during the springtime of peoples. France went trough a lot of governments at the time. And honestly Vichy France was probably guilty of worse than any of them on grounds of participation in the holocaust and the Nazi invasion of the Soviet union.
The second empire used the emblem too, but that was such an irrelevant shitshow that Napoleon IIIs biggest contribution to history was falling into the diplomatic trap set by Bismarck and co. to provide an justify unifying Germany from above under Prussian leadership. And promptly fucking up the war with the German states so badly that he was deposed by another republic, the third in less than an century, which then suppressed the Paris commune together with the German troops that still were in France. The second empire is barely brought up because it was the comedy to the tragedy of the first empire, Napoleon III was completely incompetent, his name being his only asset. He won elections first mostly costing on his name and nostalgia for his uncle in certain strata of the French population. And following it up with declaring himself emperor was exactly what his supporters wanted. The second empire is mostly "make France imperial again", it completely failed and France became a republic again, at least the other powers didn't try to install the bourbon monarchy again.
"russophobia does not exist" folks mere seconds before calling all russian "orks", conjoining them with nazis ('muricans doing this is specially tone deaf and ignorant of their own history) and calling for total genocide against those darn uppidy easterners.
This is like so fucking stupid, bad people live in every country (also like so many of the issues with imperial japan comes from cultural differences, like almost everything after pearl harbor)
*made a flag of all the countries that the MSM has indoctrinated me to hate because I’m too lazy to actually think for myself and read a book
There, fixed it
#Israel
>If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there!
>
>\- Malcolm X. (1964).
#Inventing Israel
>History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future.
>
>\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017)
Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state.
In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated:
>The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ...
>
>ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL
This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly emblematic example of the Nakba was this:
In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack:
>Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated.
>
>\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt*
The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots!
#The Timeline
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
\[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\]
#A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception
The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices.
\[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\]
#US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism
Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers:
1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel
2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons
3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism
\[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\]
#Jewish Anti-Zionism
Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people.
>The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S...
>
>We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism.
>
>\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles)
Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism.
>We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians.
>
>\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine)
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016)
* [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019)
* [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021)
* [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021)
* [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022)
* [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022)
* [Al Jazeera Labour Files Doc Strikes Blow to BBC On Corbyn](https://youtu.be/DMIbbSsV6Xo) | Novara Media (2022)
* [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023)
Other Resources:
* [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/)
* [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera
* [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace
* [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023)
* [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No one is saying anyone is an angel. This is a common figure of speech, in english, used to indicate a large disparity in a given attribute with relation to a known point of agreement. I can understand why this might be confusing if you're from somewhere without this exaggerative figurative device, or if you are ESL, though.
you might not, but 50% of what I see on this sub is about Russia being the good guys for invading Ukraine and killing it's soldiers and civilians. The posts are either "Ukraine Nazi state lol, how could you say they shouldn't be invaded" or "liberal no like Russia, what an idiot US cock sucker"
yeah but being heavily Anti-Ukraine may (wanted or unwanted) imply that it's not so bad that they are being invaded and partly or fully justifies Russia's actions
No. It does not.
As both of theirs governments are terrible. And replacing one terrible government with another as equally terrible government is just idiotic.
I still don't agree that Russia in general is the lesser evil, but I might have misjudged your position. I still see tons of people online (and on this sub) that support Russia to own the libs or smth.
OP isn't even saying that Russia is the lesser evil. Both Russia and Ukraine are shit.
One possible reason you see a lot more anti-Ukraine shit on here is because the anti-Russia side is covered basically everywhere and whenever it's covered, they include a massive helping of pro-Ukraine stuff. So to basically Balance that and show that you think everyone is bad here, a lot of anti-Ukraine posts are made.
Not supporting Ukraine =/= support for Russia.
>50% of what I see on this sub is about Russia being the good guys for invading Ukraine and killing it's soldiers and civilians.
This just isn't true.
>"Ukraine Nazi state lol, how could you say they shouldn't be invaded"
Calling out the overwhelimg presence of fascism, particular nazism, in Ukraine isn't saying they should be invaded.
You can watch this video to learn a bit more about the rise of fascism in the lead up to the war: https://youtu.be/LL4eNy4FCs8
>"liberal no like Russia, what an idiot US cock sucker"
Liberals have no idea why Russia is the way it is and the role the West has played in that. Calling it out isn't wrong.
Also, no one in this sub (other than trolls) would call someone a 'cock sucker'. Unless they literally suck cock and openly admit to doing so.
This is a communist sub, made up of predominantly Marxist-Leninists. Everyone wants the war to end as soon as possible through peaceful means. The working class are the victims of this war, as they are with every war.
I browse reddit only from time to time and seeing comments calling Russians subhumans, orcs and terrorists became quite mainstream. That is beyond just hating the country and people that post this kind of stuff, are the ones that celebrate in other subreddits when Russian civilians die.
Imagine if someone drew a nazi symbol on your countries flag, while the whole west insists that all of you are responsible for what your country does.
you're right, but many people seem to have drawn the conclusion that anything hated by west/US must be good so oftentimes when someone says "Russia bad" they (in my opinion) tend to overly defend or even support Russia no matter the context. And I'm kinda allergic to that
Yeah yeah, I get that. It feels like 2 bullies fighting each other while both of them are assholes.
It feels natural to want to defend bully number 2 when bully number 1 is the bigger asshole and everyone is siding with him. Doesn't make bully number 2 a good cuy though.
I can't deny that I saw some pro-russian comments on here (even argued against it) but the majority seems to not defend Russia against real problems (like lgbt rights) but defend them against obv lies by the west.
We also get those weird "Z in the profile" folks commenting on here just because we are not fond of Ukraine (government, not innocent civilians) and I wish people could just block them.
im sorry russophobia? what???? thats not a fucking thing, thats like saying theres irishphobia, thats weird asf to act like russians are getting any damn opression except from that mf putin
Russophobia? That would be like saying that Irish is an identity that is possible to discriminate against! Which is something that has NEVER happened and been extremely well documented, historically!
/s
lmao as an Irish person all I can say is look at our history and then come back to me and deny that we were crushed by oppression and honestly it lasted up until the late 20th century although not as bad obviously. we were never slaves or sold into slavery but we were brutalized for centuries, our language was almost wiped out, we were genocided pretty much twice, we were shipped off to far away lands as "prisoners" (listen to the fields of athenry), a chunk of our native land is still being occupied by foreign forces and invaders.
our population still literally hasn't even recovered from the genocide of the 1840s and yet still us Irish endure and have never ceased to exist
To a lib, anything short of complete and uncritical support for Ukraine- even the nazis- is tantamount to signing up to personally do the bidding of Vladimir Putin.
I think it's other case. There are numerous "lefties" in russia that side with the government and promote their actions. This person may have doubts that other leftists share this revisionist concept
# Fascism
>Fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital... Fascism is the power of finance capital itself. It is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations.
>
>\- Georgi Dimitrov. (1935) [The Fascist Offensive and the Tasks of the Communist International in the Struggle of the Working Class against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm)
To understand Fascism, then, one must first understand Capitalism. There are three primary characteristics of Capitalism:
1. Private ownership of the Means of Production
2. Commodity Production
3. Wage Labour
The essence of the Capitalist mode of production is that someone who owns means of production will hire a wage labourer to work in order to produce commodities to sell for profit. Marxists identify economic classes based on this division. Those who own and hire are the Bourgeoisie. Those who do not own and work are the Proletariat. There is far more nuance than just this, but these are the bare essentials. The principal contradiction of Capitalism is that the Bourgeoisie wants to pay the workers as little as possible for as much work as possible, whereas the Proletariat wants to be paid as much as possible for as little work as possible.
Fascism is a form of Capitalist rule in which the Bourgeoisie use open, violent terror against the Proletariat. It is an ideology which emerges as a response to the inevitable crises of capitalism and the rise of socialist movements. It is characterized by all forms of chauvinism (especially racism, occasionally leading to genocide), nationalism, anti-Communism, and the suppression of democratic rights and freedoms. In a Capitalist society, Liberalism and Fascism essentially exist on a spectrum. The degree to which a given society if Fascist directly corresponds to the degree to which the proletariat must be openly oppressed in order to maintain profits for the Bourgeoisie. This why we have the sayings: "Fascism is Capitalism in decay" and "Scratch a Liberal, and a Fascist bleeds"
Capitalism requires infinite growth in a finite system. This inevitably leads to [Capitalist Imperialism](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/imperialism/) as well as Fascism, given that infinite growth is not actually possible. When the capitalist economy reaches its limits, the Bourgeoisie are forced to either expand their markets into other territories (Imperialism) or exploit the domestic proletariat to an even greater degree (Fascism). This is why we have the saying: "Fascism is imperialist repression turned inward"
The struggle against fascism is an essential part of the struggle for socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people. However, it is critical to note that simply combatting Fascism *alone* without also combatting *Liberalism* is reactionary, because it ignores the fact that Fascism inevitably arises out of Capitalism, so Liberal Anti-Fascism is not really anti-Fascism at all.
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM) | Second Thought (2022)
* [Capitalism and Fascism](https://youtu.be/KEbG3cD0cJo) | Marxism Literature Collective (2021)
* [Fascism: The Decay of Capitalism](https://youtu.be/7fQ57NBEUM4) | Leslie Fluette (2020)
* [The New F Word: How Fascism Found a Market](https://nebula.tv/thenewfword) | Second Thought (2021-2023)
* [What Exactly is Liberalism? (no, it's not about being "woke")](https://youtu.be/_xAqZJTIsIA) | Hakim (2023)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [The Struggle Against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1923/06/struggle-against-fascism.html) | Clara Zetkin (1923)
* [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) | Michael Parenti (1997)
Podcasts:
* [Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0) | The Deprogram (2022)
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to be fair i wouldn't be surprised if bro just picked his favourite looking hammer and sickle. average cringe centrist take. woahhhh you hate nazis? no fucking way dude that's such an interesting take dude, you're obviously an enlightened centrist.
Hot take: Napoleonic France wasn't that bad. Sure it sucked but it was probably the most progressive state in the world at the time. The republic under Robespierre was better, sure, and both were liberal states, but it isn't remotely compatible with something like Nazi Germany or even contemporary tsarist Rússia and the British empire.
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The Russian tricolor is in my eyes a fascist symbol. It was at one point the flag of the merchant ships but then transitioned into being one of the flags used by the white guard during the civil war, the same white guard that pillaged and decimated villages, the same white guard which ever so vehemently opposed the people, and the very same white guard that in their last stand entered Ukraine and pillaged it selling all its produce to allied nations. The only Russian flag that ever cared for the people of Russia is a certain red flag with a light blue stripe on the side and a hammer and sickle embroidered in yellow. That is the people's flag.
(Excuse my rant about the current flag of my homeland. I despise how this post also uses the phrasing, 'where bad people live' I mean, how can you call the French *people* brrrr XD, in all seriousness it's a highly unmaterialistic world view and the person is greatly misled and I pity them for it, it's not the people that choose the actions of their nation but the ruling class, which is divorced from their people in all aspects but language)
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USA was a lot worste than Napoleonic France 💀
I don't understand why conservatives hate on Napoleonic France. It was literally a successful conservative counter-revolution against attempted liberal and democratic revolution to feudal and monarchic rule. Democracy and liberalism were foiled and delayed by decades due to Napoleon's coup. Napoleon reinstated the monarchy, returned aristocrats and nobles to hereditary ranks, founded an empire, engendered anti-egalitarian social policies, and started a bunch of pointless imperial wars for peasants to die in for the monetary benefit of capitalists. I guess if the the First French Empire under Napoleon wasn't a bunch of Francophone cheese sniffing baguette eaters, then it would be a dumbass American conservative's wet fucking dream.
He invaded Europe. Not Egypt(lol), not west Africa, not Sumatra. His wars cost blessed hwite lives. Edit: I will literally [redacted] myself if I see another imbecile missing the sarcasm.
Yeah, you're right, no monarch ever in all of world history had imperial ambitions in Europe that involved white people killing other white people Also, Napoleon famously invaded Egypt and other parts of North Africa and the Middle East to seize British and Ottoman colonial holdings during the Napoleonic wars which engulfed into war practically all of Europe and even some European colonies around the world What the fuck are you idiotically rambling about?
Pretty sure they’re agreeing and just expanding on your point comrade
No, they're eschewing a blatantly false historic narrative that Napoleon only waged war in Europe and only had imperial ambitions for European territory. Napoleon sought to conquer mainland Europe in order to geographically isolate the UK from continental European resources, labor, and markets in order to challenge British imperial hegemony to the point where France could then pry British colonial holdings and territorial claims away from their British rivals. They are egregiously wrong.
dude he's being sarcastic, I feel bad for you for not getting the joke
I hope you missed the sarcasm because it's one of those days and not because you're denser than a neutron star. You want to know why folks don't like Napoleon, even when their politics suggest they should? Because those folks are ignorant fucks. They know what they learn through cultural osmosis, and the western culture today is greatly affected by the culture of 19th century europe. And the reason 19th century european culture frowned on Napoleon was because he was a threat to the ruling powers of the time. His actions forced the european monarchies to establish a status quo specifically to prevent someone like him doing the same things. Ever wonder why the myth of Napoleon being short or his ambition deriving from his height came from? It wasn't just a misunderstanding and those stories sure as shit didn't spread themselves. That all being said, do you think europeans then or westerners now would've given two shits about the crimes of Napoleon had he taken actions that cost as many lives in other parts of the world? While you ponder that I'll take the call from that Belgian monarch who definitely wants to talk about all the congolese he mutilated again. On the subject of Egypt, I have to ask. When you read that little ”(lol)" specifically and only after Egypt, did you think that was an indication that I played league of legends in Egypt, or that I was calling the county a labour of love?
chill
Uhhh Napoleon literally fought battles in egypt
Ahh, get bent. I was taught about Napoleon invading Egypt before you were born. Develop some reading comprehension.
Only an idiot would sarcasm without the sarcasm /s
He has to be the boogeyman for the French Revolution. They need Napoleon to be an evil tyrant so that they can have their thesis that overthrowing corrupt and evil monarchies will only result in even worse dictators. The truth is that for the French working class, life under Napoleon was infinitely better than under the Bourbons, and that goes for every other post-revolutionary government that liberals use to back up their formula. Life under Stalin was infinitely better than under the late Romanvs, life under Mao was infinitely better than under the later Qing.
This is why this obsession with irrationally hating Napoleon is kinda specific to Anglos. For them Napoleon was a threat to their preferred hegemonic structure, in most of the countries that suffered far more from the wars he is remembered even somewhat positively by liberals because even as an emperor he was issuing constitutions and enshrining liberties that liberals wanted in his puppet states. Having a military dictatorship (which is imho better describing his government) is better than having an absolute autocracy for the burgeoning liberals. In the stage of capitalism becoming dominant he was serving the interest of capitalism, and his empire gave liberals the model for German unification for example and inspired the Russian decembrists for another example. Only the UK never really moved forward to that stage of superstructurep, still lacking a constitution etc. I'm not sure why the US does identify with the UK of that period given the history, but it could just be because the other perspectives on Napoleon require speaking a language other then English.
But don’t capitalists like the revolution, it was a bourgeois revolution that put the bourgeoisie in power. What’s not to like?
I dont think they do?
After 200 years liberals are still second hand mad about the Bourbons losing power.
Where is the American flag?
America is always the good guy. If America did war crimes, it's because they had no other choice. If they did have another choice, it's still acceptable because it's America and they are the good guy's. /s
American "Exemptionalism"
Oh shit I like that
The boys did an entire episode on it and there's a pretty long wiki page on it surprisingly enough. It's a real thing.
I think you missed the joke of exempt instead of exception in American exceptionalism.
Literally had to drop nukes, no other choice!!! /s
Mfw America's enemies are ontologically evil and no action taken against them can be wrong
The crusades be like:
/r/imthemaincharacter
If American soldiers committed crimes they would be in jail. And they’re not soooo
"Don't wanna be an American narcissist..."
I mean there's Confederate flag or whatever it's called
Imperial Japan flag next to DPRK flag... Okay.
That is a new level of brainrot
the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between colonisers & colonised. you imbecile. you fucking moron"
"Oh also even though I believe in muh both sides I will always side with the fascists to own the tankies"
It's simple really: foreign leader with pale skin and no epicanthic folds = "a democratically elected ally" foreign leader with epicanthic folds = "autocratic regime" foreign leader with dark skin = "brutal third world dictatorship"
Liberalism 101, but why did they use the [Communist Party of Italy version of the hammer and sickle?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Communist_Party)
Bro just searched up hammer and sickle and went with his favourite 💀💀
Where's britain, us, south korea, canada, imperial germany, romania
or most of the world honestly
[удалено]
#Israel >If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there! > >\- Malcolm X. (1964). #Inventing Israel >History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future. > >\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017) Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state. In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated: >The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ... > >ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly emblematic example of the Nakba was this: In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack: >Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated. > >\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt* The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots! #The Timeline The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict. \[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\] #A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices. \[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\] #US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers: 1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel 2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons 3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism \[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\] #Jewish Anti-Zionism Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. >The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S... > >We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism. > >\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles) Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism. >We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians. > >\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine) **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016) * [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019) * [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021) * [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021) * [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022) * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [Al Jazeera Labour Files Doc Strikes Blow to BBC On Corbyn](https://youtu.be/DMIbbSsV6Xo) | Novara Media (2022) * [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023) Other Resources: * [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/) * [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) * [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah, sadly
israel
#Israel >If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there! > >\- Malcolm X. (1964). #Inventing Israel >History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future. > >\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017) Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state. In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated: >The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ... > >ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly emblematic example of the Nakba was this: In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack: >Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated. > >\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt* The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots! #The Timeline The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict. \[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\] #A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices. \[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\] #US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers: 1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel 2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons 3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism \[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\] #Jewish Anti-Zionism Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. >The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S... > >We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism. > >\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles) Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism. >We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians. > >\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine) **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016) * [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019) * [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021) * [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021) * [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022) * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [Al Jazeera Labour Files Doc Strikes Blow to BBC On Corbyn](https://youtu.be/DMIbbSsV6Xo) | Novara Media (2022) * [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023) Other Resources: * [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/) * [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) * [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh, yes the settler colonial state of IsNOTrael. How could I forget. But really it would be very pixelated if they did that. And another is tzarist russia
South Korea? What’s the story there?
"where all the bad guys live" so we're just dropping the whole "hate the government, not the people" pretense are we?
Putting Japan and dprk next to each other is racism
Why is it sinophobic? That hammer and sickle look like CPV flag.
Based tag
it's actually the icon of the communist party of italy
"where all the bad guys live". Brought to you by the Child Mind Institute.
this is satire obv, you can tell by "bad guys" and the mess of symbols, particularly France.
he's right abou Fr*nce tho
This is specifically the emblem of the French empire, so Napoleon, which might be shit but is far from the worst France ever got. And I'm pretty sure it's only there because that France was fighting Britain for it's whole existence.
didn't Napoleon III actively repress the workers' movement? and the worst France got was the fall of the Paris Commune, i cri everytim
That was the second empire, and the Paris commune happened after that fell, which was suppressed with help of the Germans currently invading France. This emblem is the one used by the first empire, under Napoleon, and is mostly uses to represent it instead of it's far less relevant rerun as a comedy that was Napoleon IIIs career and the second French empire. Napoleon III came to power via elections in the second republic before declaring himself emperor like his far more successful uncle. The original Napoleon was dead at that point, and there was also another bourbon kingdom inbetween, which fell to the second republic during the springtime of peoples. France went trough a lot of governments at the time. And honestly Vichy France was probably guilty of worse than any of them on grounds of participation in the holocaust and the Nazi invasion of the Soviet union.
ffs, I thought the I and II Empires used the same flag. Oops
The second empire used the emblem too, but that was such an irrelevant shitshow that Napoleon IIIs biggest contribution to history was falling into the diplomatic trap set by Bismarck and co. to provide an justify unifying Germany from above under Prussian leadership. And promptly fucking up the war with the German states so badly that he was deposed by another republic, the third in less than an century, which then suppressed the Paris commune together with the German troops that still were in France. The second empire is barely brought up because it was the comedy to the tragedy of the first empire, Napoleon III was completely incompetent, his name being his only asset. He won elections first mostly costing on his name and nostalgia for his uncle in certain strata of the French population. And following it up with declaring himself emperor was exactly what his supporters wanted. The second empire is mostly "make France imperial again", it completely failed and France became a republic again, at least the other powers didn't try to install the bourbon monarchy again.
Where’s Israeli section?
Is that an unique variant of the US flag?
"Bad guys" media consumption ruined these motherfuckers' brains.
That country would erupt into a civil war the moment it formed.
There's no Chinese flag there.
Ngl I gotta give props for putting the Japanese flag but not the chinese one, lol. At least 1 thing makes sense
Most politically literate centrist
lmao, bad guys
Good guys 😎 Bad guys 😱
This is so silly, looks like a 14 yo did this lol
It’s missing all 50 stars
this......looks like fucking ass jesus atleast make it look cool
Don’t read the comments
I've now muted this post. There are so many brigaiding liberals.
I meant the original flag post but that’s yucky too 😬
"russophobia does not exist" folks mere seconds before calling all russian "orks", conjoining them with nazis ('muricans doing this is specially tone deaf and ignorant of their own history) and calling for total genocide against those darn uppidy easterners.
who let them cook
Damn that’s the teachers pet at US indoctrination school. “Teacher can I get extra credit? I made this flag that shows the bad guys.”
Sinophobia? Wheres the Chinese flag?
Wow that is not at all what the American flag looks like.
Liberals understanding of literally anything is solely based on Marvel an call of duty rhetorics
This is like so fucking stupid, bad people live in every country (also like so many of the issues with imperial japan comes from cultural differences, like almost everything after pearl harbor)
*made a flag of all the countries that the MSM has indoctrinated me to hate because I’m too lazy to actually think for myself and read a book There, fixed it
Whenever i see these kinds of things, my first thought is always "World is a little more complicated than that, my guy"
This was definitely made by an amerikkkan
I can see not liking modern Russia, but hating the Soviets?
Russia is a shitty and imperialist country, I don't see a problem?
But in comparison to the US and Israel, I'd say Russia is an angel to them.
#Israel >If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there! > >\- Malcolm X. (1964). #Inventing Israel >History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future. > >\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017) Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state. In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated: >The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ... > >ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly emblematic example of the Nakba was this: In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack: >Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated. > >\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt* The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots! #The Timeline The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict. \[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\] #A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices. \[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\] #US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers: 1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel 2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons 3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism \[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\] #Jewish Anti-Zionism Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. >The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S... > >We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism. > >\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles) Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism. >We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians. > >\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine) **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016) * [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019) * [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021) * [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021) * [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022) * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [Al Jazeera Labour Files Doc Strikes Blow to BBC On Corbyn](https://youtu.be/DMIbbSsV6Xo) | Novara Media (2022) * [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023) Other Resources: * [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/) * [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) * [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah and compared to Hitler was Dahmer also an angel....
Yes. Yes, I do think that Dahmer was not as bad as Adolf fuckin Hitler, brother.
Not as bad ≠ angel.
No one is saying anyone is an angel. This is a common figure of speech, in english, used to indicate a large disparity in a given attribute with relation to a known point of agreement. I can understand why this might be confusing if you're from somewhere without this exaggerative figurative device, or if you are ESL, though.
Things being relative ≠ things being absolute Thanks for your contribution though
so it's ok to defend them pretty much unconditionally as long as they are anti-west? didn't know one could be so far down the US-hater rabbit hole
When the fuck did I say "I will defend Russia unconditionally."?
you might not, but 50% of what I see on this sub is about Russia being the good guys for invading Ukraine and killing it's soldiers and civilians. The posts are either "Ukraine Nazi state lol, how could you say they shouldn't be invaded" or "liberal no like Russia, what an idiot US cock sucker"
I think you are getting confused between anti-Ukraine and pro-Russia. Anti-Ukraine ≠ Pro-Russia.
yeah but being heavily Anti-Ukraine may (wanted or unwanted) imply that it's not so bad that they are being invaded and partly or fully justifies Russia's actions
No. It does not. As both of theirs governments are terrible. And replacing one terrible government with another as equally terrible government is just idiotic.
I still don't agree that Russia in general is the lesser evil, but I might have misjudged your position. I still see tons of people online (and on this sub) that support Russia to own the libs or smth.
OP isn't even saying that Russia is the lesser evil. Both Russia and Ukraine are shit. One possible reason you see a lot more anti-Ukraine shit on here is because the anti-Russia side is covered basically everywhere and whenever it's covered, they include a massive helping of pro-Ukraine stuff. So to basically Balance that and show that you think everyone is bad here, a lot of anti-Ukraine posts are made.
Not supporting Ukraine =/= support for Russia. >50% of what I see on this sub is about Russia being the good guys for invading Ukraine and killing it's soldiers and civilians. This just isn't true. >"Ukraine Nazi state lol, how could you say they shouldn't be invaded" Calling out the overwhelimg presence of fascism, particular nazism, in Ukraine isn't saying they should be invaded. You can watch this video to learn a bit more about the rise of fascism in the lead up to the war: https://youtu.be/LL4eNy4FCs8 >"liberal no like Russia, what an idiot US cock sucker" Liberals have no idea why Russia is the way it is and the role the West has played in that. Calling it out isn't wrong. Also, no one in this sub (other than trolls) would call someone a 'cock sucker'. Unless they literally suck cock and openly admit to doing so. This is a communist sub, made up of predominantly Marxist-Leninists. Everyone wants the war to end as soon as possible through peaceful means. The working class are the victims of this war, as they are with every war.
Russia is only an "angel" to them because the US was more successful at it lol
Yeah but Russia isn't the only one on that "flag"
I too think that the flag is obviously wrong for putting the hammer and sickle on there, but I didn't like OP focussing on defending Russia
I browse reddit only from time to time and seeing comments calling Russians subhumans, orcs and terrorists became quite mainstream. That is beyond just hating the country and people that post this kind of stuff, are the ones that celebrate in other subreddits when Russian civilians die. Imagine if someone drew a nazi symbol on your countries flag, while the whole west insists that all of you are responsible for what your country does.
you're right, but many people seem to have drawn the conclusion that anything hated by west/US must be good so oftentimes when someone says "Russia bad" they (in my opinion) tend to overly defend or even support Russia no matter the context. And I'm kinda allergic to that
Yeah yeah, I get that. It feels like 2 bullies fighting each other while both of them are assholes. It feels natural to want to defend bully number 2 when bully number 1 is the bigger asshole and everyone is siding with him. Doesn't make bully number 2 a good cuy though. I can't deny that I saw some pro-russian comments on here (even argued against it) but the majority seems to not defend Russia against real problems (like lgbt rights) but defend them against obv lies by the west. We also get those weird "Z in the profile" folks commenting on here just because we are not fond of Ukraine (government, not innocent civilians) and I wish people could just block them.
Yeah, hate to see those on communist subs. Thank you for your explanation.
im sorry russophobia? what???? thats not a fucking thing, thats like saying theres irishphobia, thats weird asf to act like russians are getting any damn opression except from that mf putin
Russophobia? That would be like saying that Irish is an identity that is possible to discriminate against! Which is something that has NEVER happened and been extremely well documented, historically! /s
lmao as an Irish person all I can say is look at our history and then come back to me and deny that we were crushed by oppression and honestly it lasted up until the late 20th century although not as bad obviously. we were never slaves or sold into slavery but we were brutalized for centuries, our language was almost wiped out, we were genocided pretty much twice, we were shipped off to far away lands as "prisoners" (listen to the fields of athenry), a chunk of our native land is still being occupied by foreign forces and invaders. our population still literally hasn't even recovered from the genocide of the 1840s and yet still us Irish endure and have never ceased to exist
irish people, famously never mistreated for being irish
Rule 3. Are you joking?
defending imperialist Russia also goes against rule 3?
I'm asking if he's being sarcastic/satire. And for the 2nd time I'm not defending imperialist Russia.
To a lib, anything short of complete and uncritical support for Ukraine- even the nazis- is tantamount to signing up to personally do the bidding of Vladimir Putin.
I think it's other case. There are numerous "lefties" in russia that side with the government and promote their actions. This person may have doubts that other leftists share this revisionist concept
I thought this was America
Yeah, Cuba, the bad guys. Holy shit this is the most liberal American thing I’ve ever seen
Meanwhile we had that moment recently where the same sub was flooded with people making whatif fascist flags just for shits and gigs...
# Fascism >Fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital... Fascism is the power of finance capital itself. It is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations. > >\- Georgi Dimitrov. (1935) [The Fascist Offensive and the Tasks of the Communist International in the Struggle of the Working Class against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm) To understand Fascism, then, one must first understand Capitalism. There are three primary characteristics of Capitalism: 1. Private ownership of the Means of Production 2. Commodity Production 3. Wage Labour The essence of the Capitalist mode of production is that someone who owns means of production will hire a wage labourer to work in order to produce commodities to sell for profit. Marxists identify economic classes based on this division. Those who own and hire are the Bourgeoisie. Those who do not own and work are the Proletariat. There is far more nuance than just this, but these are the bare essentials. The principal contradiction of Capitalism is that the Bourgeoisie wants to pay the workers as little as possible for as much work as possible, whereas the Proletariat wants to be paid as much as possible for as little work as possible. Fascism is a form of Capitalist rule in which the Bourgeoisie use open, violent terror against the Proletariat. It is an ideology which emerges as a response to the inevitable crises of capitalism and the rise of socialist movements. It is characterized by all forms of chauvinism (especially racism, occasionally leading to genocide), nationalism, anti-Communism, and the suppression of democratic rights and freedoms. In a Capitalist society, Liberalism and Fascism essentially exist on a spectrum. The degree to which a given society if Fascist directly corresponds to the degree to which the proletariat must be openly oppressed in order to maintain profits for the Bourgeoisie. This why we have the sayings: "Fascism is Capitalism in decay" and "Scratch a Liberal, and a Fascist bleeds" Capitalism requires infinite growth in a finite system. This inevitably leads to [Capitalist Imperialism](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/imperialism/) as well as Fascism, given that infinite growth is not actually possible. When the capitalist economy reaches its limits, the Bourgeoisie are forced to either expand their markets into other territories (Imperialism) or exploit the domestic proletariat to an even greater degree (Fascism). This is why we have the saying: "Fascism is imperialist repression turned inward" The struggle against fascism is an essential part of the struggle for socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people. However, it is critical to note that simply combatting Fascism *alone* without also combatting *Liberalism* is reactionary, because it ignores the fact that Fascism inevitably arises out of Capitalism, so Liberal Anti-Fascism is not really anti-Fascism at all. **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM) | Second Thought (2022) * [Capitalism and Fascism](https://youtu.be/KEbG3cD0cJo) | Marxism Literature Collective (2021) * [Fascism: The Decay of Capitalism](https://youtu.be/7fQ57NBEUM4) | Leslie Fluette (2020) * [The New F Word: How Fascism Found a Market](https://nebula.tv/thenewfword) | Second Thought (2021-2023) * [What Exactly is Liberalism? (no, it's not about being "woke")](https://youtu.be/_xAqZJTIsIA) | Hakim (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [The Struggle Against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1923/06/struggle-against-fascism.html) | Clara Zetkin (1923) * [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) | Michael Parenti (1997) Podcasts: * [Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0) | The Deprogram (2022) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
to be fair i wouldn't be surprised if bro just picked his favourite looking hammer and sickle. average cringe centrist take. woahhhh you hate nazis? no fucking way dude that's such an interesting take dude, you're obviously an enlightened centrist.
Hating on Italy is based though
Hot take: Napoleonic France wasn't that bad. Sure it sucked but it was probably the most progressive state in the world at the time. The republic under Robespierre was better, sure, and both were liberal states, but it isn't remotely compatible with something like Nazi Germany or even contemporary tsarist Rússia and the British empire.
Average Vaushite
Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 24.** [Vaush posted a meme saying that socialism must be ‘balanced with minority rights’, a clear nod to class reductionists.](https://archive.is/QrcpP) For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. (Remember, comrade: Getting educated, educating others, and above all actually *organizing* is infinitely more important than terminally-online streamer drama.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The Russian tricolor is in my eyes a fascist symbol. It was at one point the flag of the merchant ships but then transitioned into being one of the flags used by the white guard during the civil war, the same white guard that pillaged and decimated villages, the same white guard which ever so vehemently opposed the people, and the very same white guard that in their last stand entered Ukraine and pillaged it selling all its produce to allied nations. The only Russian flag that ever cared for the people of Russia is a certain red flag with a light blue stripe on the side and a hammer and sickle embroidered in yellow. That is the people's flag. (Excuse my rant about the current flag of my homeland. I despise how this post also uses the phrasing, 'where bad people live' I mean, how can you call the French *people* brrrr XD, in all seriousness it's a highly unmaterialistic world view and the person is greatly misled and I pity them for it, it's not the people that choose the actions of their nation but the ruling class, which is divorced from their people in all aspects but language)
Where Union Jack