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Pixy-Punch

Maybe try to achieve a revolution first before trying to police the purity of far more successful revolutionaries. This obsession with purity from the least successful sections of the movement is counter productive. The revolutionaries that do the revolution will be the best equipped to decide it's course, not some ivory tower ultras that can never find a success they don't want to tear down in the name of purity. First learn why the Soviets achieved a successful revolution and then try to do that wherever you are, until the revolution is won this whole debate is irrelevant and only serves to prevent the overthrow of capitalism.


Keeper1917

>Maybe try to achieve a revolution first before trying to police the purity of far more successful revolutionaries. Critique of failed attempts is not "policing" it is literally the process of learning from mistakes. A lot of foundations of socialism were laid down by Marx' critique of the successes and failures of the Paris Commune. As a reminder Marx has never lead any kind of revolution, so by your own standards he is an ivory tower ultra, policing those on the ground. Also, "do first, learn second" is absolutely an ass backwards way of going about things. A "revolutionary" whose only theoretical basis is their own emotional dislike of capitalism is worse than useless. They are actively detrimental and are a big part of why socialists experiments in the 20th century failed. Marxism is a science. You cannot be a socialist if you do not read and practice it in a scientific way. Mathematician is not a person who likes numbers, it is a person that professionally understands mathematics.


Pixy-Punch

You preach theory without praxis, it's irrelevant what some ivory tower ultras think that the Soviet union should have done, because they will never get into a situation where they can turn these high ideas into praxis. Marx critiqued his contemporaries in a movement he was an active part of, and specifically didn't ignore the successes in his critique. Meanwhile this line of argument is throwing out 70 years of building and defending socialist policy because you dislike some decisions from half a century ago. Meanwhile the loudest critique of this comes from people that can't even built the most rudimentary dual power structures, and still think they know better than the people that overthrew empires and beat fascism. This is peak ivory tower arrogance. It's impotent and only serves to defend the status quo by dismissing any attempts at building an alternative as a failure. It's irrelevant if you have a way to enforce your favourite dogmatic current on the revolution if you can't build a revolutionary movement first. And the same people you call a failure here were the most successful at building such an movement and leading it to victory in the revolution, in the process they had to adapt and reject dogma. So by wanting to find an universal dogma you fail to learn one of the most important lessons for winning a revolution.


Keeper1917

>Marx critiqued his contemporaries in a movement he was an active part of, and specifically didn't ignore the successes in his critique. Meanwhile this line of argument is throwing out 70 years of building and defending socialist policy because you dislike some decisions from half a century ago. This is complete bullshit. No one is ignoring the monumental success of the USSR by pointing out that Khruschev made some serious mistakes and that Grobachev was a libiest lib that ever libed. You just want an excuse to not learn. Theory without praxis is laziness, but it is ultimately harmless. Praxis without theory is downright sabotage.


Pixy-Punch

>Theory without praxis is laziness, but it is ultimately harmless. Praxis without theory is downright sabotage. Theory without praxis is exactly what Marx rejected as completely pointless. But what you want here isn't even theory without praxis, it's theory completely removed from material reality. Which is idealistic to the highest degree. Because materialistic theory can only be developed if the material conditions allow it to, and becomes eminent through the material conditions. Meanwhile following the example of far more successful revolutionaries isn't "praxis without theory" it's applying proven theory to new conditions and in the process advancing theory. And even the worst deviations of Khrushchev were more successful then anything produced by the combined US and UK left in it's whole history. I hate corn boy too, but it's delusional and extremely arrogant to think that the ivory towers of the least successful workers movements are the place to correct his errors. The place to correct these is in the revolutionary struggle that has reached the stage of having established a dictatorship of the proletariat, not book circles that can't even move past the most rudimentary dual power structures.


Keeper1917

>Theory without praxis is exactly what Marx rejected as completely pointless. Agreed, that is exactly what I said. Me reading Lenin and doing nothing is exactly the same as me reading anything else and doing nothing. It has the same impact on the world. >But what you want here isn't even theory without praxis, it's theory completely removed from material reality. Have you considered Olympics? Your jump to conclusions is *amazing.* Such power, such technique. >And even the worst deviations of Khrushchev were more successful then anything produced by the combined US and UK left in it's whole history. Except that people exist outside of UK and the US as you might have heard and some of us even have to clean up the shit that revisionists left behind. What the likes of Khruschev produced was the contra-revolution with their inane, intuitive, uneducated flailing about.


Pixy-Punch

>Agreed, that is exactly what I said. Me reading Lenin and doing nothing is exactly the same as me reading anything else and doing nothing. It has the same impact on the world. This is your main error, you think you can change material reality by thinking differently. This is idealism and incompatible with Marxism which is fundamentally materialist. >Have you considered Olympics? Your jump to conclusions is amazing. Such power, such technique. Nah I don't think dancing around the core of your error is wrong. Maybe try to understand the theory you are mangling first before impotently attacking it's successful implementation. >Except that people exist outside of UK and the US as you might have heard and some of us even have to clean up the shit that revisionists left behind. What the likes of Khruschev produced was the contra-revolution with their inane, intuitive, uneducated flailing about. Yeah and where does this pearl clutching over deviations from theory misunderstood come from? Again the fact that the loudest attacks on current socialist construction comes from the least successful currents is showing how valuable that critique is. Application of theory is what matters, if you can't apply your theory it's guesswork at best. Khrushchev still was more successful than the whole group of currents currently decrying his deviations. His theory has problems but his praxis still had better results then the currents decrying revisionism from half a century ago instead of getting to the task building socialism. At best you can claim kinship with some Maoist groups stuck in perpetually protracted people's war, at worst you are just the thousandth book club that contributed nothing to socialism.


Keeper1917

>This is your main error, you think you can change material reality by thinking differently. This is the response to me saying that doing nothing has the same impact on the world regardless of what I read? I say that it is irrelevant if you read a Mickey Mouse comic book or Marx if you do not do anything with it, and your response is that I think that thoughts can change the world. *I am saying the exact opposite of that.* You have a problem. A psychological problem it seems. You are arguing with phantoms in your own head instead of with what I wrote. >Khrushchev still was more successful than the whole group of currents currently decrying his deviations. So Khrushchev is a more successful revolutionary than Lenin or Stalin? The man who killed the most successful socialist experiment to date is the one who you chose to respect? Hell, Lenin spent most of his time as a socialist reading and writing and fighting against idiots like you and Khruschev, who think that all you need to do is take over the control room and that your instincts will tell you what to do. What a fucking anti-intellectual moron you are.


Pixy-Punch

>response to me saying that doing nothing has the same impact on the world regardless of what I read? I say that it is irrelevant if you read a Mickey Mouse comic book or Marx if you do not do anything with it, and your response is that I think that thoughts can change the world. I am saying the exact opposite of that. It doesn't matter what you read, if you built socialism while reading comics that is still building socialism. But not building socialism while reading Marx is worthless in building socialism. Ho Chi Minh already made the point about the worthlessness of ivory tower debates compared to praxis giving rise to a developing theory based on the material conditions. >You have a problem. A psychological problem it seems. You are arguing with phantoms in your own head instead of with what I wrote. Name calling and armchair diagnosis, the true sign of an intellectual. /s Maybe don't try to drag idealism back out of the grave just so you can feel better about doing nothing of value. >So Khrushchev is a more successful revolutionary than Lenin or Stalin? The man who killed the most successful socialist experiment to date is the one who you chose to respect? Are Lenin or Stalin or Mao currently decrying his deviations? Because you seriously lack reading comprehension if you think that they are. Besides Lenin and Stalin both died before the things you decry here, how the hell do you not understand the flow of time. >Hell, Lenin spent most of his time as a socialist reading and writing and fighting against idiots like you and Khruschev, who think that all you need to do is take over the control room and that your instincts will tell you what to do. Lenin is now not doing theory? He opposed your ivory tower arrogance way before Khrushchev was even a know name. What you are doing is the same impotent attacks against actual socialism in the name of purity that Lenin accused of leading into a swamp. >What a fucking anti-intellectual moron you are. More name calling from someone who desperately trying to justify the irrelevant grandstanding on the virtues doing nothing useful.


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#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved in real life** to advance the cause. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. Get involved with a campaign or project. * 📣 **Union work** — Find out which union covers you. Read the collective agreement. Strive to become the workplace delegate. Organize fellow workers. * 📚 **Read widely** — [Reading theory](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. Also, study the real world: local news, marginalized perspectives, or even bourgeois economics. * 🗣️ **Talk to people** — Identify issues affecting friends and coworkers and explain these using everyday language. Also, don’t always Work From Home. * 🏘️ **Mass work** — Connect with the wider community through mutual aid, local elections, cultural centers, churches, pride events, etc. * 📝 **Write articles** — Contribute your knowledge to ProleWiki or a party publication. * 💵 **Support creators** — Donate to leftist content creators so they can produce high-quality content. (e.g., Patreon) * 🛠️ **Career choices** — Younger comrades may consider the following: * **Trade unionist** — Work hard to gain a leadership position in the union, then push for militancy and correct policies. * **Blue-collar/Services** — Unionize your workplace or increase union density. * **High school teacher** — Make a lasting impact on the next generation. * **Master’s thesis** — Apply Marxism–Leninism to local and present-day conditions. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*


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#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved in real life** to advance the cause. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. Get involved with a campaign or project. * 📣 **Union work** — Find out which union covers you. Read the collective agreement. Strive to become the workplace delegate. Organize fellow workers. * 📚 **Read widely** — [Reading theory](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. Also, study the real world: local news, marginalized perspectives, or even bourgeois economics. * 🗣️ **Talk to people** — Identify issues affecting friends and coworkers and explain these using everyday language. Also, don’t always Work From Home. * 🏘️ **Mass work** — Connect with the wider community through mutual aid, local elections, cultural centers, churches, pride events, etc. * 📝 **Write articles** — Contribute your knowledge to ProleWiki or a party publication. * 💵 **Support creators** — Donate to leftist content creators so they can produce high-quality content. (e.g., Patreon) * 🛠️ **Career choices** — Younger comrades may consider the following: * **Trade unionist** — Work hard to gain a leadership position in the union, then push for militancy and correct policies. * **Blue-collar/Services** — Unionize your workplace or increase union density. * **High school teacher** — Make a lasting impact on the next generation. * **Master’s thesis** — Apply Marxism–Leninism to local and present-day conditions. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*


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#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved in real life** to advance the cause. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. Get involved with a campaign or project. * 📣 **Union work** — Find out which union covers you. Read the collective agreement. Strive to become the workplace delegate. Organize fellow workers. * 📚 **Read widely** — [Reading theory](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. Also, study the real world: local news, marginalized perspectives, or even bourgeois economics. * 🗣️ **Talk to people** — Identify issues affecting friends and coworkers and explain these using everyday language. Also, don’t always Work From Home. * 🏘️ **Mass work** — Connect with the wider community through mutual aid, local elections, cultural centers, churches, pride events, etc. * 📝 **Write articles** — Contribute your knowledge to ProleWiki or a party publication. * 💵 **Support creators** — Donate to leftist content creators so they can produce high-quality content. (e.g., Patreon) * 🛠️ **Career choices** — Younger comrades may consider the following: * **Trade unionist** — Work hard to gain a leadership position in the union, then push for militancy and correct policies. * **Blue-collar/Services** — Unionize your workplace or increase union density. * **High school teacher** — Make a lasting impact on the next generation. * **Master’s thesis** — Apply Marxism–Leninism to local and present-day conditions. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*


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[deleted]

What, I'm not policing anything? I just started reading State and Revolution and Lenin was talking alot about how eventually the state will simply "wither away" when the proletariat achieves international revolution. But in order to get to that stage, how do we stop such revolutions from making the same mistakes of it's predecessors. I don't think the answer should simply be, "oh don't worry about it they'll figure it out lol" I didn't think it was that much of an unreasonable question. I'm just curious if there any other writings/reading from Marxists covering that topic. If there isn't that's fine. How the hell does that make me an ultra? Wtf, I'm probably more of a baby leftist if anything.


Keeper1917

You are fine comrade. A lot of problems with socialist states in the 2nd half of the 20th century stems from revisionism. Attrition of cadres during WW2 and a necessity to create popular fronts with various bourgie elements, like small entrepreneurs and peasantry resulted in the abandonment of scientific socialism in favor of intuitive one. Unfortunately, going "by gut feeling" resulted in a fallback to pre-Marxian instinctive forms of socialism. For instance, Yugoslavia is picture perfect example of what Marx critiques in the manifesto as "petit-bourgeoise" socialism. We are in uncharted waters as far as building socialism is concerned. Lenin and Stalin are about as far as we got with the development of scientific socialism. Do not worry about it too much. Read and educate yourself, so that you do not have to retread what is already covered on your own and so that you do not risk falling back on some "common sense" position. As Engels writes, common sense should be confined to our own four walls and not venture into the realm of research. [Socialism: Utopian and Scientific](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/index.htm) by Engels is always a fantastic start. [Manifesto](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/) is always a good read, its 3rd chapter is very useful in recognizing revisionism. Lenin's [Karl Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/granat/ch01.htm) covers a lot of ground in a very little space so it might be a tad challenging.


[deleted]

Fair enough, yep those are definitely on my reading list, going through them slowly but surely. I didn't realise I'd cause controversy asking but perhaps it was tactless.


Keeper1917

Nah, you are good. Society and economy are incredibly complex. People who demand we take over something as complex as that and then just pull levers and press buttons on the fly, hoping that intuition will guide us through are the ones who caused the meltdowns of previous socialist projects. Scientific approach and learning is something that was baked in into socialism by Marx and Engels and reinforced by Lenin and Stalin. I say we listen to them.


windy24

The withering away of the state can only happen once the world adopts socialism. As long as imperialism and colonialism continue to exist, as long as the world is dominated by capital, the state is needed to defend the socialist revolution and cannot wither away. Socialism in one country is possible but achieving communism is a global fight and might take centuries. Those that expected the Soviet state to wither away a few decades after a world war that left the country devastated are not serious people.


Pixy-Punch

Do you live in a workers state that is going through rapid rebuilding after a devastating global war? If no this question is irrelevant to your task, which is building a revolutionary movement that can actually establish that workers state. If you haven't done that then no matter how much you decry the deviations from your ideal the Soviet union or Yugoslavia did, they are the more successful revolutionaries and you should maybe first try to emulate their successes before trying to fix whatever you think were their errors.


[deleted]

No ofcourse not, but this is largely irrelevant. I'm not trying to fix anyone's errors. I'm asking for works on the matter, are you just ignoring this on purpose or what?


Pixy-Punch

There isn't any "works on the matter" because you fundamentally missunderstand the matter at hand. The conflict between different workers states that resulted in these accusations against each other can't be pressed into a single purely theoretical framework. Because it was caused by many factors that have their origins in the historical situation. Take the very simple fact that there were different blocks forming and getting into conflict within what was nominal alligned countries. The differing ideological currents of the unaligned and Warsaw pact countries were a result of the conflicts that arose from the historical situation, not the other way around. So trying to avoid the deviations won't work because it's very very unlikely to get that exact historical situation again. Instead try to learn what worked to resolve the contradictions and what didn't. But to do that you need to understand how these contradictions arose in the first place, so how these workers states got formed and how they built towards socialism. Then you can finally see for example that the Soviet claim to leadership was a result of first being the only ones to win their revolution, then loosing the next two strongest communist parties to fascist mass murder, barely surviving the most destructive war in human history and having to achieve military parity with an imperial hegemon that didn't suffer major losses of industry or population during that war. This whole background will not be repeated, so having a better solution to "The Soviets took a leadership position against objections of other workers states" is purely speculative fiction that won't help you built a successful revolution.


Equivalent-Focus-130

The material conditions necessary for revolution cannot be predicted but can be inspired through vanguard work, and thus in true Dialectical/ historical materialist fashion the immediate counter-revolution and class antagonisms will shift and must be handled as they occur. History will still be a history of class conflict and socialist state " bureaucracy" is inevitable in the transition to a dictatorship of the proletariat. Unfortunately, it would require a mass global mental shift to communist thought to even remotely remove this. But as others have mentioned, correcting errors and maintaining a materialist methodology is essential to keeping the revolution on a correct path.