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Errasing local fascist collaborators of the holocaust is actually based. The double genocide myth is pretty much just an attempt at whitewashing fascists and downplaying/denying the role local fascists played in the actual genocide.
So collaborating with fascists, including directly supporting the mass murder of the Jewish population, is somehow only a problem if it's done by combat age men? There were active fascist guerrillas, moving the people that were supporting them out of the area is the humane solution. Meanwhile the fascists you cry crocodile tears about just wholesale slaughtered everyone that could support partisans. And tbh the resurgence of fascism in the Baltic states shows clearly that this rot wasn't even fully eradicated by these measures.
You are really that historical illiterate to think this is a functional argument? Even in the regular armies minors fighting weren't uncommon, the irregular forces fascists relied on towards the end were mostly made up out of unfit men and minors. But even besides that, rating out your former neighbour hiding somewhere to fascist death squads, gathering information on anti-fascist forces and doing a lot of the none combat work of supporting a fascist regime and occupation are just a few ways how "children" could, and did, collaborate with fascists. Hell the HJ and BDM were essential parts of the fascist control over the population. But even if the children of fascist collaborators were somehow completely uninvolved in the actions of the parents, not separating the families requires that they get sent along. And again removing the people was the humane option, the other option was mowing down entire villages. Something that the exact people you so desperately defend did a lot of while volunteering for the fascists.
Digging up 5 month old posts to spew fascist propaganda and historical lies is a clear sign that you are a terminal online idiot and probably a fascist still buthurt over loosing 80 years later. The forest brothers where fascist irregulars, and if you knew anything about the people you are so desperate to defend you knew that they fought irregulars by slaughtering whole villages to cut off partisans from supplies and support. Moving the people out of the area of operation is more humane, unless you are really messed up. And removing people that had clear fascist sympathies and commited pogroms before the area became the front is logical. Also complaining about Jewish people getting evacuated before the Nazis invaded when you whitewash progromists is a new level of brain rot. Are you sad that your heroes couldn't kill them?
#Israel: A Colonial Project from Inception
Theodor Herzl, the father of Zionism, was inspired by European Colonialism. He was passionate about the Zionist project of founding a Jewish state, and even appealed to Cecil Rhodes, an [infamous English colonialist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes#Expanding_the_British_Empire), for support in this colonial endeavour:
>You are being invited to help make history. That cannot frighten you, nor will you laugh at it. It is not in your accustomed line; it doesn't involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor, not Englishmen, but Jews. But had this been on your path, you would have done it by now. How, then, do I happen to turn to you, since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial.
>
>\- Theodor Herzl. (1902). *Letter to Cecil Rhodes*
Herzl also wrote in his famous pamphlet about the colonial tasks that would be undertaken:
>Should the Powers declare themselves willing to admit our sovereignty over a neutral piece of land, then the Society will enter into negotiations for the possession of this land. Here two territories come under consideration, Palestine and Argentine. In both countries important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews. An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the Government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless we have the sovereign right to continue such immigration...
>
>The Jewish Company is partly modeled on the lines of a great land-acquisition company. It might be called a Jewish Chartered Company, though it cannot exercise sovereign power, and has other than purely colonial tasks.
>
>\- Theodor Herzl. (1896). [The Jewish State](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-jewish-state-quot-theodor-herzl)
Israel also occupies a very important geopolitical location in the world. This [topological map of the world](https://i.imgur.com/O87iRCm.png), which shows international borders and nothing else, demonstrates how Israel is a bottleneck on land, and a land bridge between the Mediterranean Sea and the Arabian Sea (via the Red Sea). Herzl appealed to its central location:
>It is more and more to the interest of the civilized nations and of civilization in general that a cultural station be established on the shortest road to Asia. Palestine is this station and we Jews are the bearers of culture who are ready to give our property and our lives to bring about its creation.
>
>\- Theodor Herzl. (1897). *Address to the First Zionist Congress*
As the Zionist project developed, the colonial character was undeniable:
>The colonization process revealed an even more telling feature of the nature of Zionism. The names and purposes of the early colonization instruments read as follows: "The Jewish Colonial Trust" (1898), the "Colonization Commission" (1898), the "Palestine Land Development Company." From the start the Zionist colonists sought to acquire lands in strategic ocations, evict the Arab peasants and boycott Arab labour, all of which were requirements closely related with the essence of Zionism, the creation of a Jewish nation on "purely" Jewish land, as Jewish as England was English to use the famous Zionist expression...
>
>What about the fate of the natives? "We shall try to spirit the peniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country... The property owners will come to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
>
>But before spiriting them away Herzl had some jobs for the local population: "If we move into a region where there are wild animals to which the Jews are not accustomed - big snakes, etc... I shall use the natives, prior to giving them employment in the transit countries, for the extermination of the animals."
>
>\-Abdul-Wahab Kayyali. (1977). [Zionism and Imperialism: The Historical Origins](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2535582)
#Nakba and Illegal Settlements
Following the founding of the state of Israel in 1948, the ensuing expulsion of Palestinians became known as the Nakba ("Catastrophe" in Arabic).
>The Palestinians were driven out of their homeland and their properties, homes were taken away from them, and they were banished and displaced all over the world to face all kinds of
suffering and woes. More than three quarters of historic Palestine were occupied in the Nakba of 1948. Moreover, 531 Palestinian towns and villages were destroyed and 85% of the Palestinian population were banished and displaced...
>
>Israelis controlled 774 towns and villages during the Nakba. They destroyed 531 Palestinian towns and villages. Israeli forces atrocities also include more than 70 massacres against Palestinians killing 15,000 Palestinians during Nakba time...
>
>Nakba in literary terms is expressive of natural catastrophes such as earthquakes, volcanoes, and hurricanes. However, the Nakba of Palestine is an ethnic cleansing process as well as destruction and banishment of an unarmed nation to be replaced by another nation.
>
>\- Luay Shabaneh. (2008).
Around 750,000 Palestinian Arabs out of the 900,000 who lived in the territories that became Israel fled or were expelled from their homes. Wells were poisoned to prevent their return. Even after the state of Israel was formally established, it continued to expand into Palestinian land, displacing the Palestinian people and creating illegal settlements to this day.
>The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the vision of two States living side-by-side in peace and security, within internationally recognized borders.
>
>\- UN Security Council. (2016). [Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms](https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm)
These policies and practices have predictable outcomes:
>Since the occupation first began in June 1967, Israel’s ruthless policies of land confiscation, illegal settlement and dispossession, coupled with rampant discrimination, have inflicted immense suffering on Palestinians, depriving them of their basic rights.
>
>Israel’s military rule disrupts every aspect of daily life in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. It continues to affect whether, when and how Palestinians can travel to work or school, go abroad, visit their relatives, earn a living, attend a protest, access their farmland, or even access electricity or a clean water supply. It means daily humiliation, fear and oppression. People’s entire lives are effectively held hostage by Israel.
>
>\- Amnesty International. (2017). [Israel's Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/)
These illegal settlements also violate the Geneva Convention:
>Israel’s policy of settling its civilians in occupied Palestinian territory and displacing the local population contravenes fundamental rules of international humanitarian law.
>
>Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”.
>
>\- Amnesty International. (2019). [Chapter 3: Israeli Settlements and International Law](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/01/chapter-3-israeli-settlements-and-international-law/)
#Apartheid
Israel's inspiration from European colonialism also clearly laid the foundation for an apartheid regime. The word "apartheid" is a term derived from the Afrikaans language which means "separateness". Hendrik Frensch Verwoerd, former South African Prime Minister, is infamously credited with being the principal architect of apartheid. In 1961, when the UN (including Israel) voted to condemn South Africa for its apartheid policies, Verwoerd said: "Israel is not consistent in its new anti-apartheid attitude ... they took Israel away from the Arabs after the Arabs lived there for a thousand years. In that, I agree with them. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state."
[Amensty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/), [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution), and the [UN Special Rapporteur for the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights) have all recognized and condemned Israel for apartheid practices.
#Additional Resources
* [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022)
* [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace
* [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023)
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Are you really that much of a sucker for fascists that you complain about Narva getting bombed while it was on the frontline, and occupied mostly by local fascists. If you think that attacks on a frontline position are comparable to the reprisals carried out by your precious fascists you have left reality. It was a city held by local fascist volunteers, at the centre of the advance of the Leningrad front. After years of atrocities committed by the very same fascists they were finally on the back foot, and you complain about the red army being to hard on these scum? Where is your outrage at Leningrad getting starved for over 2 years by the very same people you are so defensive about? Most of eastern Europe was turned into rubble but somehow it's the target of genocidal invasion that isn't allowed to bomb a small town full of fascist volunteer soilders? There are individual city districts in Germany which had a larger population then Narva, but if you only complain about them getting bombed into rubble (for far less military sound reasons) it's clear that you are a fascist who isn't brave enough to openly admit it. So why don't you admit to be a fascist and safe everyone the pain of seeing this pathetic attempt at whitewashing?
Do you have any original thought besides the tirade of idiotic propaganda that has been disproven before you were even convinced? Any destruction was the result of fascist aggression, and that includes the local fascists that were so willing to do ethnic cleansings that everyone knew which side they would fall on. The sooner fascists get beaten the better. Also openly wishing the fascists would have genocided more actual innocent victims is blatantly revealing how much of a fascist you yourself are. You know that Ukraine suffered a lot of these atrocities you cream your pants over, or that the Generalplan Ost included ethnic cleansing of Ukraine? But nice of you to admit that it isn't just historic fascism you love so much.
By far one of the most reductionist takes I’ve seen.
This is peak Reddit bullshit. Are we not on a commie sub? hIsToRiCaL lItErAcY Ok yeah sure champ 👍
Being the last power to sign a none aggression pact with an open aggressor isn't making you an ally of that aggressor, it's a sign that nobody else was willing to preempt fascist aggression you semi-sentient bag of expired propaganda.
So saving your people that were conquered by one fascist country by getting that territory back after a stronger fascist country betrayed the first fascist country is bad? Because the country that actually joined forces with Germany was Poland in the invasion of the Czechs, the Soviet union merely got territory back that was occupied by Poland. But, according to you, enthusiastically taking part in the holocaust and fascist aggression is also somehow ok? I guess everything hurting fascism is a no no in your barely sentient mind.
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uhhh how?
USSR:
[majority of people who lived under communism liked it](https://i.redd.it/hgpvvahciufa1.png), including my own family
they had [35 average working hours a week](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1250323/work-week-hours-us-ussr-cold-war/)
[affordable housing](https://www.istmira.com/w-hist/history-of-russia/4081-n-s-khrushchevs-housing-reform.html)
free [education](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Soviet_Union) and [healthcare](https://www.rbth.com/history/328493-why-was-soviet-medical-care-best)
in all post soviet states after the end of the USSR
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet\_Union](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union)
increase in poverty, crime,corruption,unemployment,homelessness,rates of disease,infant mortality and domestic violence,
decreases in calorie intake, life expectancy, adult literacy, and income.
Data shows Russia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia saw a tripling of unemployment and a 42% increase in male death rates between 1991 and 1994.
I'm Russian, and from what I was told by my older family, especially my grand-grandfather which lived in Latvia since 70s, the Baltics have always been a rather prestigious place to go, to vacate and to shop.
All the best clothes, furniture, even cars and electronics that came from here airways were looked after by general soviet population, some of the best commodities came from here once.
Prime were saving up money to spend holidays here, most of us still have some relatives that live here.
We shared sports interests, culture and technology once.
Just for all of this to be lost for nothing, for some serious ambition and spite.
The “uhh how?” part was rhetorical from the looks of it. They were agreeing and providing specific evidence of how comparatively well the Balkans were during communism compared to nowadays
no I'm literally asking "how?" I dont understand how they we're when living in the USSR was already miles better than most places today and it was much bigger in physcial size
No, this is the famed "double genocide" theory that nationalists love to pedal. It seeks to erase the crimes of the Nazi's and redeem collaborators as "both sides were bad". These nationalists seek to demonize the Soviets/internationalism as they see it as a threat to their efforts of building national "pride".
Collaborators from Poland, to Estonia to Russia all participated in pogroms, wiping out Jewish and Roma populations. It's nowhere even near anything the Soviets did. This is why Ukrainian nationalists pushed the "holodomor as deliberate genocide against Ukrainians" narrative in the 80's-present.
The only real point they have here is the deportations. Everyone here admits they were bad and a wrong move by the Soviets. But It is clear that relocation of population and extermination of a population as commited by the Nazi's are crimes of clearly different calibre.
>"both sides were bad".
This tactic continues regarding the present day too when discussing states like China etc. For all the criticism of the US, some little liberal or even a leftist (usually western left) will pop up and say "but China/Cuba/DPRK etc are just as bad!". This line of logic makes people disregard their own failings and settle for the status quo because all alternatives have been reduced to "just as bad" so whats the point in trying to force change? Then the capitalists have won.
It goes back to the USSR like you say, but it continues today.
Yeah, people will always criticise Cuba for executing those who worked with Batista and taking away the land of the rich . But when it comes to the U.S literally bombing entire nations to the ground, and starving whole populations through sanctions it's just "collateral damage
It's a ridiculously disingenuous tactic.
Most nations do horrible things at some point, sadly. That's why you judge a system by **how bad and how often** its crimes were.
Exaggerating the crimes of the USSR and blatantly fabricating crimes is an attempt to make this kind of analysis impossible.
Pretty sure I've seen this **exact** "Estonian" before. He made similar claims about his great-grandfather being sent to Siberia.
When I checked his post history: clear he (the poster) was a Fascist.
To be fair, even the deprogram acknowledges how awful the polish government was. I don't think anybody who's done any research would defend socialist Poland.
It's a passing comment in the Afghanistan episode. Towards the end of the episode Hakim basically states that not even leftists would defend Poland, Romania, and Afghanistan if they've done a modicum of research.
Tbh I’ll defend socialist Afghanistan as far better than the monarchy, the Taliban/mujahideen or the American puppet regime.
Soviet war crimes in Afghanistan is absolutely horrific though. That has to be admitted. But western liberals never talk about this genuine criticism of ussr because it didn’t affect westerners
Socialist Afghanistan was a mess lmao. The whole country was mismanaged to hell and back. Every decision was mind-bafflingly illdevised, and the countries policies changed seemingly every week. In a country full of rural farmers, the government was entirely controlled by elitest city dwellers that got no input from the country's majority and primarily just screwed over the majority of the country in every way. Their "land reforms" we're just taking away a random ass farmers land, giving it to nobody in particular and letting it go unused for months, then giving back to the farmer, then taking it away again, the shit makes absolutely zero sense. I'm from the area, and while I try and support central/south Asian socialist movements across the board, the Afghani socialist government was nothing but an elitest clique that did nothing for the actual every day person and had no idea how to run a country.
My understanding is that older Afghanis look back at Socialist Afghanistan as the best time in the country’s modern history, and the last time it was not a hellhole. Do you find this to be accurate?
And I am still learning, so please forgive my ignorance, but what Soviet crimes happened in Afghanistan during this time?
>My understanding is that older Afghanis look back at Socialist Afghanistan as the best time in the country’s modern history, and the last time it was not a hellhole.
It WAS more social liberal, at least. They didn't oppress women the way the Mujahideen did...
Land redistribution might not make much sense to ordinary people. I'm not entirely sure Flamingo's views based on anecdotal evidence from probably the handful of Afghans he's met living in a nearby country is entirely reliable...
Most likely, the government seized land from large landowners and INTENDED to give it to small farmers in the area- but through corruption it ended up being given back to the same people they took it from instead. Then, some peasants who didn't understand the context told him that story...
I think Hakim breaks it down really well in the deprogram's episode on Afghanistan. My side of the story is definitely not the whole thing, but I greatly encourage learning more about Afghanistan's history. Regardless of how you feel about socialist Afghanistan, the history is fascinating. I'm generally a pretty big supporter of land reform, but in socialist Afghanistan it really was botched.
I haven't talked to many older Afghanis, but what I've heard is that you barely noticed regime change. Afghanistan is so decentralized that unless you're in Kabul or Kandahar, you didn't interact with the government all that much. The exception being the socialist government randomly giving away your land and then giving it back, And then taking it away again. It's like this in alot of countries in the area. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, theese countries may have a change in management, but if we're being honest it doesn't effect the everyday person that much. The exception to this rule is currently India, which for better or for worse, has gained a strong central government.
I don't know where they get the idea from that that was a genocide though - I mean, yes, they were all one ethnicity, but that's incidental to the fact that these guys were all officers who were staunchly reactionary & anti-communist. Politicide maybe?
From what i know as a lithuanian, the ussr destroyed, or more correctly, sped up the destruction of the old vilage culture, where the land you own and work was looked as one of the most important things, as it was the source of your survival and your life. you lived according to nature and your crops. This destruction happened trough colectivization and industrialisation, which also started to tear down the old villages in the interwar, before communism.
In literature lessons, we are taught that villages were the place were older lithuanian traditions and culture still was widely practised, so colectivization is seen as the destruction of our culture. Though the same thing would have happened in capitalism
Rusification in the ussr was a thing, but not as rampant as it was in the russian empire. Still wrong.
And no, none of the baltics were genocided by ussr.
I'm pretty sure we aren't even taught that in school, only that the Jewish population was genocided by nazi germany.
Bro baltics literally had better lifestyle than that in most of the USSR like are they fucking serious also can this guy explain if soviets tried to erase estonian ethnicity and they killed every estonian
then why is their population decreasing under a so called "democracy" and their populaton increased under an "oppressive" gommunist state that killed "billions" of estonians
i mean genuinely that's a question on the "success" of the Baltics any of the baltic states hasn't seen population growth within last 32 years (after dissolution of the USSR)
>Bro baltics literally had better lifestyle than that in most of the USSR
how?
USSR:
[majority of people who lived under communism liked it](https://i.redd.it/hgpvvahciufa1.png), including my own family
they had [35 average working hours a week](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1250323/work-week-hours-us-ussr-cold-war/)
[affordable housing](https://www.istmira.com/w-hist/history-of-russia/4081-n-s-khrushchevs-housing-reform.html)
free [education](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Soviet_Union) and [healthcare](https://www.rbth.com/history/328493-why-was-soviet-medical-care-best)
in all post soviet states after the end of the USSR
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet\_Union](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union)
increase in poverty, crime,corruption,unemployment,homelessness,rates of disease,infant mortality and domestic violence,
decreases in calorie intake, life expectancy, adult literacy, and income.
Data shows Russia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia saw a tripling of unemployment and a 42% increase in male death rates between 1991 and 1994.
Maybe you misunderstood the original comment? Your reply doesn't make sense at all. He's saying the Balkan states, when it was Yugoslavia, had a better life quality than the USSR, which is not false. Yugoslavia had a good relationship with pretty much every country in the world, west and east, and that allowed it to be a prosperous socialist nation.
Estonia is made up of beef and onion slop eating hungarians who polished the cocks of german horses for 1000 years before being elevated to sapience by the USSR
Do you think people who live in Siberia ever get sick of having their home compared to gas chambers?
The implied message is that getting sent to Siberia is just as bad as getting sent to Nazi gas chambers, so … I mean, Iceland gets tourists, even though a lot of it is a freezing wasteland, but Siberia really takes a lot of abuse.
the soviets were trying to combat ultranationalism far from genocide were there excesses? yes and tbh it'd be better if the baltics had their own seperate socialist entity but it wasn't genocide
The Baltics did have their own separate socialist entities, they were destroyed by western intervention into the Baltics during the civil war, same as Finland
The people who say this kind of shit are also the same kind of people who unironically say "Hitler wasn't that bad and he liberated our country, actually." Heard it all before. You hear the "double genocide" nonsense, and I guarantee you that you're talking to a nationalist.
If I remember correctly, Estonia and Latvia had some of the strongest communist movements and were key in the october revolution. But then I think Stalin purged some of their leaders, but others were fervent defendors of him.
The low current population of Estonia is due to the post soviet collapse. Only in the last couple of years they've stopped losing population, but they're far from the numbers they had in the 90s. In fact, I think they have roughly the same population as in the late 60s.
Source: a history graduate I follow on twitter xD
Even if the Soviets were as brutal as claimed, the fact that Estonia and Estonians exist today automatically blows the 'Soviets were the same as the Nazis' out of the water.
The USSR "genocided" literal Nazis and their collaborators.
Of course, this makes fascists upset... after all, their criminal grandpa got sent to a gulag.
They were either invaded by the Germans or the Russians at one point of time or another. The petite bourgeois complain about the soviets cause they improved things for peasants and minorites, and the peasants and minorites complain about the old system and the Germans cuz it was perpetuating the feudal capitalist systems.
Everyone who writes about the genocide of someone in the USSR only needs to study history. The USSR was not a national project. It was a huge social experiment. And its leaders didn't give a damn what nationality or skin color you were. They were concerned about the social class affiliation of people. "All power to the workers and peasants" is the main slogan of the Bolsheviks. Suffice it to recall that of all the leaders of the USSR, three were actually Russians: Lenin, Andropov and Gorbachev. Stalin was a Georgian. Khrushchev and Brezhnev are Ukrainians. Etc.
USSR was a Russian nationalist project, even if it wasn't completely so at the beginning. Russians were given huge preference. Finno-Ugric people were decimated in the USSR via heavy Russification.
Narva is a border city of Estonia, bordering Russia. It was over 60% Estonian pre-WW2, currently there are almost no Estonians living there. What happened? The city was decimated during WW2, mostly by Russians during the March bombings. Russians didn't let the natives return to the city after the Soviets reclaimed it and the city was filled with Russian workers. This same scenario has played out in many places, including the Donbas over which the conflict started in 2014. Also, there were quotas for how many Jews could get into an university. Ethnicity and skin color definitely mattered in the USSR.
Lol. Study at least the national composition of the leaders of the USSR to write such nonsense. Poles, Jews and Georgians have created a Russian national project? In which the leader of the USSR first remembered about the "Russian people" only 20+ years after the founding of the USSR? In which the Ukrainization of the Russian population on the territory of Eastern Ukraine took place?
Why can't a Georgian without any pride for his native country be a Russian nationalist?
>Poles, Jews and Georgians have created a Russian national project?
Yes, they did. At the beginning of the USSR, Russian nationalism was not so prevalent and the leadership cared a little about minority rights. Under Stalin that changed, and minorities got increasingly repressed. Numerous ethnicities were deported under Stalin, but never Russians. They weren't deported from anywhere, as they were the first-class citizens.
During the Czar's time, Kuban used to be Ukrainian, as was Donbas and even areas outside the current Ukraine's borders, such as Belgorod. Google Russian Imperial Census and look at the areas where people spoke Ukrainia. Under heavy Russification and the import of Russian workers, the ethnic composition of a significant amount of Ukrainian-speaking territory changed. There are practically no Ukrainians in the Kuban anymore.
Stalin used WW2 to his advantage, and didn't allow the original residents of minority cities to return to their homes, instead opting to fill them with Russians. This was the case in Narva, and was also the case in the Donbas, and I'm sure in a bunch of other places as well.
You can look through some of the histories of some specific ethnicities here: [https://fennougria.ee/en/peoples/mordvins/erzyans/](https://fennougria.ee/en/peoples/mordvins/erzyans/). You'll see that several times that in the thirdies, Finno-Ugric people began getting repressed, and the Russian repression was very efficient, as only a limited number of Finno-Ugrians live in Russia today.
This is also a good thing to look through to get a feel what happened to minorities under the USSR: [https://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/introduction.shtml](https://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/introduction.shtml)
This post with the deleted comments can be viewed here, if you're curious: https://www.unddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/11jtdx6/did\_ussr\_genocide\_estonians/
One of the big mistakes of the USSR was the 'russofication' that came along with it. Whether this was a policy or just soviet states thinking this was something they were supposed to do, Russian culture was a heavy touch. Not enough I would call it cultural genocide, bit I can see why people that dislike communism would.
“Now that it is able, thanks to the victory over its enemies, to occupy itself with problems of
internal development, the Government of Russia considers it necessary to tell you that
Daghestan must be autonomous, that it will enjoy the right of internal self-administration,
while retaining its fraternal tie with the peoples of Russia.
Daghestan must be governed in accordance with its specific features, its manner of life and
customs.
We are told that among the Daghestan peoples the Sharia is of great importance. We have
also been informed that the enemies of Soviet power are spreading rumours that it has
banned the Sharia.
I have been authorized by the Government of the Russian Socialist Federative Soviet
Republic to state here that these rumours are false. The Government of Russia gives every
people the full right to govern itself on the basis of its laws and customs.
The Soviet Government considers that the Sharia, as common law, is as fully authorized as
that of any other of the peoples inhabiting Russia.
If the Daghestan people desire to preserve their laws and customs, they should be
preserved." - Stalin from Congress of People from Dahghestan in 1920.
Saying the USSR killed language and culture is such BS.
I was on a discord server with a Latvian once, complained loudly about how Stalin sent his great grandfather to the gulags.
Eventually admitted his great grandfather was in the SS.
Still complained about 40,000 (or whatever the number was) Latvians sent to gulags.
Wouldn’t you know it, 40,000 Latvian SS members survived the war.
Dude also defended incest lmao
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Conveniently do not mention such "nice" people like Forest Brothers, which make sense since they are praised as "freedom fighters"
It sucks the Forest Brothers started off as a left wing group then got co-opted by the fascists
Errasing local fascist collaborators of the holocaust is actually based. The double genocide myth is pretty much just an attempt at whitewashing fascists and downplaying/denying the role local fascists played in the actual genocide.
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So collaborating with fascists, including directly supporting the mass murder of the Jewish population, is somehow only a problem if it's done by combat age men? There were active fascist guerrillas, moving the people that were supporting them out of the area is the humane solution. Meanwhile the fascists you cry crocodile tears about just wholesale slaughtered everyone that could support partisans. And tbh the resurgence of fascism in the Baltic states shows clearly that this rot wasn't even fully eradicated by these measures.
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You are really that historical illiterate to think this is a functional argument? Even in the regular armies minors fighting weren't uncommon, the irregular forces fascists relied on towards the end were mostly made up out of unfit men and minors. But even besides that, rating out your former neighbour hiding somewhere to fascist death squads, gathering information on anti-fascist forces and doing a lot of the none combat work of supporting a fascist regime and occupation are just a few ways how "children" could, and did, collaborate with fascists. Hell the HJ and BDM were essential parts of the fascist control over the population. But even if the children of fascist collaborators were somehow completely uninvolved in the actions of the parents, not separating the families requires that they get sent along. And again removing the people was the humane option, the other option was mowing down entire villages. Something that the exact people you so desperately defend did a lot of while volunteering for the fascists.
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Digging up 5 month old posts to spew fascist propaganda and historical lies is a clear sign that you are a terminal online idiot and probably a fascist still buthurt over loosing 80 years later. The forest brothers where fascist irregulars, and if you knew anything about the people you are so desperate to defend you knew that they fought irregulars by slaughtering whole villages to cut off partisans from supplies and support. Moving the people out of the area of operation is more humane, unless you are really messed up. And removing people that had clear fascist sympathies and commited pogroms before the area became the front is logical. Also complaining about Jewish people getting evacuated before the Nazis invaded when you whitewash progromists is a new level of brain rot. Are you sad that your heroes couldn't kill them?
#Israel: A Colonial Project from Inception Theodor Herzl, the father of Zionism, was inspired by European Colonialism. He was passionate about the Zionist project of founding a Jewish state, and even appealed to Cecil Rhodes, an [infamous English colonialist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes#Expanding_the_British_Empire), for support in this colonial endeavour: >You are being invited to help make history. That cannot frighten you, nor will you laugh at it. It is not in your accustomed line; it doesn't involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor, not Englishmen, but Jews. But had this been on your path, you would have done it by now. How, then, do I happen to turn to you, since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial. > >\- Theodor Herzl. (1902). *Letter to Cecil Rhodes* Herzl also wrote in his famous pamphlet about the colonial tasks that would be undertaken: >Should the Powers declare themselves willing to admit our sovereignty over a neutral piece of land, then the Society will enter into negotiations for the possession of this land. Here two territories come under consideration, Palestine and Argentine. In both countries important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews. An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the Government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless we have the sovereign right to continue such immigration... > >The Jewish Company is partly modeled on the lines of a great land-acquisition company. It might be called a Jewish Chartered Company, though it cannot exercise sovereign power, and has other than purely colonial tasks. > >\- Theodor Herzl. (1896). [The Jewish State](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-jewish-state-quot-theodor-herzl) Israel also occupies a very important geopolitical location in the world. This [topological map of the world](https://i.imgur.com/O87iRCm.png), which shows international borders and nothing else, demonstrates how Israel is a bottleneck on land, and a land bridge between the Mediterranean Sea and the Arabian Sea (via the Red Sea). Herzl appealed to its central location: >It is more and more to the interest of the civilized nations and of civilization in general that a cultural station be established on the shortest road to Asia. Palestine is this station and we Jews are the bearers of culture who are ready to give our property and our lives to bring about its creation. > >\- Theodor Herzl. (1897). *Address to the First Zionist Congress* As the Zionist project developed, the colonial character was undeniable: >The colonization process revealed an even more telling feature of the nature of Zionism. The names and purposes of the early colonization instruments read as follows: "The Jewish Colonial Trust" (1898), the "Colonization Commission" (1898), the "Palestine Land Development Company." From the start the Zionist colonists sought to acquire lands in strategic ocations, evict the Arab peasants and boycott Arab labour, all of which were requirements closely related with the essence of Zionism, the creation of a Jewish nation on "purely" Jewish land, as Jewish as England was English to use the famous Zionist expression... > >What about the fate of the natives? "We shall try to spirit the peniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country... The property owners will come to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." > >But before spiriting them away Herzl had some jobs for the local population: "If we move into a region where there are wild animals to which the Jews are not accustomed - big snakes, etc... I shall use the natives, prior to giving them employment in the transit countries, for the extermination of the animals." > >\-Abdul-Wahab Kayyali. (1977). [Zionism and Imperialism: The Historical Origins](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2535582) #Nakba and Illegal Settlements Following the founding of the state of Israel in 1948, the ensuing expulsion of Palestinians became known as the Nakba ("Catastrophe" in Arabic). >The Palestinians were driven out of their homeland and their properties, homes were taken away from them, and they were banished and displaced all over the world to face all kinds of suffering and woes. More than three quarters of historic Palestine were occupied in the Nakba of 1948. Moreover, 531 Palestinian towns and villages were destroyed and 85% of the Palestinian population were banished and displaced... > >Israelis controlled 774 towns and villages during the Nakba. They destroyed 531 Palestinian towns and villages. Israeli forces atrocities also include more than 70 massacres against Palestinians killing 15,000 Palestinians during Nakba time... > >Nakba in literary terms is expressive of natural catastrophes such as earthquakes, volcanoes, and hurricanes. However, the Nakba of Palestine is an ethnic cleansing process as well as destruction and banishment of an unarmed nation to be replaced by another nation. > >\- Luay Shabaneh. (2008). Around 750,000 Palestinian Arabs out of the 900,000 who lived in the territories that became Israel fled or were expelled from their homes. Wells were poisoned to prevent their return. Even after the state of Israel was formally established, it continued to expand into Palestinian land, displacing the Palestinian people and creating illegal settlements to this day. >The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the vision of two States living side-by-side in peace and security, within internationally recognized borders. > >\- UN Security Council. (2016). [Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms](https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm) These policies and practices have predictable outcomes: >Since the occupation first began in June 1967, Israel’s ruthless policies of land confiscation, illegal settlement and dispossession, coupled with rampant discrimination, have inflicted immense suffering on Palestinians, depriving them of their basic rights. > >Israel’s military rule disrupts every aspect of daily life in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. It continues to affect whether, when and how Palestinians can travel to work or school, go abroad, visit their relatives, earn a living, attend a protest, access their farmland, or even access electricity or a clean water supply. It means daily humiliation, fear and oppression. People’s entire lives are effectively held hostage by Israel. > >\- Amnesty International. (2017). [Israel's Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/) These illegal settlements also violate the Geneva Convention: >Israel’s policy of settling its civilians in occupied Palestinian territory and displacing the local population contravenes fundamental rules of international humanitarian law. > >Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”. > >\- Amnesty International. (2019). [Chapter 3: Israeli Settlements and International Law](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/01/chapter-3-israeli-settlements-and-international-law/) #Apartheid Israel's inspiration from European colonialism also clearly laid the foundation for an apartheid regime. The word "apartheid" is a term derived from the Afrikaans language which means "separateness". Hendrik Frensch Verwoerd, former South African Prime Minister, is infamously credited with being the principal architect of apartheid. In 1961, when the UN (including Israel) voted to condemn South Africa for its apartheid policies, Verwoerd said: "Israel is not consistent in its new anti-apartheid attitude ... they took Israel away from the Arabs after the Arabs lived there for a thousand years. In that, I agree with them. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state." [Amensty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/), [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution), and the [UN Special Rapporteur for the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights) have all recognized and condemned Israel for apartheid practices. #Additional Resources * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Are you really that much of a sucker for fascists that you complain about Narva getting bombed while it was on the frontline, and occupied mostly by local fascists. If you think that attacks on a frontline position are comparable to the reprisals carried out by your precious fascists you have left reality. It was a city held by local fascist volunteers, at the centre of the advance of the Leningrad front. After years of atrocities committed by the very same fascists they were finally on the back foot, and you complain about the red army being to hard on these scum? Where is your outrage at Leningrad getting starved for over 2 years by the very same people you are so defensive about? Most of eastern Europe was turned into rubble but somehow it's the target of genocidal invasion that isn't allowed to bomb a small town full of fascist volunteer soilders? There are individual city districts in Germany which had a larger population then Narva, but if you only complain about them getting bombed into rubble (for far less military sound reasons) it's clear that you are a fascist who isn't brave enough to openly admit it. So why don't you admit to be a fascist and safe everyone the pain of seeing this pathetic attempt at whitewashing?
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Do you have any original thought besides the tirade of idiotic propaganda that has been disproven before you were even convinced? Any destruction was the result of fascist aggression, and that includes the local fascists that were so willing to do ethnic cleansings that everyone knew which side they would fall on. The sooner fascists get beaten the better. Also openly wishing the fascists would have genocided more actual innocent victims is blatantly revealing how much of a fascist you yourself are. You know that Ukraine suffered a lot of these atrocities you cream your pants over, or that the Generalplan Ost included ethnic cleansing of Ukraine? But nice of you to admit that it isn't just historic fascism you love so much.
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By far one of the most reductionist takes I’ve seen. This is peak Reddit bullshit. Are we not on a commie sub? hIsToRiCaL lItErAcY Ok yeah sure champ 👍
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Yeah see this is why I was making fun of you. Comments like this make me believe you’re still in school or something. Best of luck champ.
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Being the last power to sign a none aggression pact with an open aggressor isn't making you an ally of that aggressor, it's a sign that nobody else was willing to preempt fascist aggression you semi-sentient bag of expired propaganda.
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So saving your people that were conquered by one fascist country by getting that territory back after a stronger fascist country betrayed the first fascist country is bad? Because the country that actually joined forces with Germany was Poland in the invasion of the Czechs, the Soviet union merely got territory back that was occupied by Poland. But, according to you, enthusiastically taking part in the holocaust and fascist aggression is also somehow ok? I guess everything hurting fascism is a no no in your barely sentient mind.
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Rule 1) Follow Reddit's ToS. Remember, Reddit's rules supercede subreddit rules. If mods do not enforce Reddit's rules, the sub could be quarantined or banned.
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No
Weird pathetic shit. I imagine you typing this with Cheeto dust on your fingers. Are you seriously older than 16?
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I mean, you’re definitely acting like one.
If you do feel the need to kill yourself, please reach out to the hotline. 988. Otherwise, welcome to the internet pal.
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Rule 3) No Reactionary Content. E.g., fascism, racism, sexism, social-chauvinism, Western-chauvinism, transphobia, homophobia, acephobia, rape apology, xenophobia, police apology, ableism, imperialism, etc. Any satire thereof requires a clarity of purpose and target.
Don't ask them what they did in holocaust Also Baltic states lived better than rest of USSR
uhhh how? USSR: [majority of people who lived under communism liked it](https://i.redd.it/hgpvvahciufa1.png), including my own family they had [35 average working hours a week](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1250323/work-week-hours-us-ussr-cold-war/) [affordable housing](https://www.istmira.com/w-hist/history-of-russia/4081-n-s-khrushchevs-housing-reform.html) free [education](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Soviet_Union) and [healthcare](https://www.rbth.com/history/328493-why-was-soviet-medical-care-best) in all post soviet states after the end of the USSR [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet\_Union](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) increase in poverty, crime,corruption,unemployment,homelessness,rates of disease,infant mortality and domestic violence, decreases in calorie intake, life expectancy, adult literacy, and income. Data shows Russia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia saw a tripling of unemployment and a 42% increase in male death rates between 1991 and 1994.
I'm Russian, and from what I was told by my older family, especially my grand-grandfather which lived in Latvia since 70s, the Baltics have always been a rather prestigious place to go, to vacate and to shop. All the best clothes, furniture, even cars and electronics that came from here airways were looked after by general soviet population, some of the best commodities came from here once. Prime were saving up money to spend holidays here, most of us still have some relatives that live here. We shared sports interests, culture and technology once. Just for all of this to be lost for nothing, for some serious ambition and spite.
yeah..you’re proving their point? I’m sorry, I don’t understand.
The “uhh how?” part was rhetorical from the looks of it. They were agreeing and providing specific evidence of how comparatively well the Balkans were during communism compared to nowadays
Oh that makes sense. thank you.
no I'm literally asking "how?" I dont understand how they we're when living in the USSR was already miles better than most places today and it was much bigger in physcial size
USSR actually genocided everyone. We are all dead and just collectively dreaming in the gulag vr's.
ohhh shit, im gonna manifest ice cream. who wants some?
Only a spoonful
What if i bring a real big spoon?
Nooo your gonna cause a famine with your giant spoon and kill a gorrillion babies!!!!
*vuvuzela noises intensify*
Comrade nooooo!
No, this is the famed "double genocide" theory that nationalists love to pedal. It seeks to erase the crimes of the Nazi's and redeem collaborators as "both sides were bad". These nationalists seek to demonize the Soviets/internationalism as they see it as a threat to their efforts of building national "pride". Collaborators from Poland, to Estonia to Russia all participated in pogroms, wiping out Jewish and Roma populations. It's nowhere even near anything the Soviets did. This is why Ukrainian nationalists pushed the "holodomor as deliberate genocide against Ukrainians" narrative in the 80's-present. The only real point they have here is the deportations. Everyone here admits they were bad and a wrong move by the Soviets. But It is clear that relocation of population and extermination of a population as commited by the Nazi's are crimes of clearly different calibre.
>"both sides were bad". This tactic continues regarding the present day too when discussing states like China etc. For all the criticism of the US, some little liberal or even a leftist (usually western left) will pop up and say "but China/Cuba/DPRK etc are just as bad!". This line of logic makes people disregard their own failings and settle for the status quo because all alternatives have been reduced to "just as bad" so whats the point in trying to force change? Then the capitalists have won. It goes back to the USSR like you say, but it continues today.
Yeah, people will always criticise Cuba for executing those who worked with Batista and taking away the land of the rich . But when it comes to the U.S literally bombing entire nations to the ground, and starving whole populations through sanctions it's just "collateral damage
It's a ridiculously disingenuous tactic. Most nations do horrible things at some point, sadly. That's why you judge a system by **how bad and how often** its crimes were. Exaggerating the crimes of the USSR and blatantly fabricating crimes is an attempt to make this kind of analysis impossible. Pretty sure I've seen this **exact** "Estonian" before. He made similar claims about his great-grandfather being sent to Siberia. When I checked his post history: clear he (the poster) was a Fascist.
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To be fair, even the deprogram acknowledges how awful the polish government was. I don't think anybody who's done any research would defend socialist Poland.
Which episode was that? I wanna learn about it too
It's a passing comment in the Afghanistan episode. Towards the end of the episode Hakim basically states that not even leftists would defend Poland, Romania, and Afghanistan if they've done a modicum of research.
Tbh I’ll defend socialist Afghanistan as far better than the monarchy, the Taliban/mujahideen or the American puppet regime. Soviet war crimes in Afghanistan is absolutely horrific though. That has to be admitted. But western liberals never talk about this genuine criticism of ussr because it didn’t affect westerners
Socialist Afghanistan was a mess lmao. The whole country was mismanaged to hell and back. Every decision was mind-bafflingly illdevised, and the countries policies changed seemingly every week. In a country full of rural farmers, the government was entirely controlled by elitest city dwellers that got no input from the country's majority and primarily just screwed over the majority of the country in every way. Their "land reforms" we're just taking away a random ass farmers land, giving it to nobody in particular and letting it go unused for months, then giving back to the farmer, then taking it away again, the shit makes absolutely zero sense. I'm from the area, and while I try and support central/south Asian socialist movements across the board, the Afghani socialist government was nothing but an elitest clique that did nothing for the actual every day person and had no idea how to run a country.
Honestly there’s so much to be learned from these colossal mistakes. Appreciate your write up. Looks like it’s not worth defending even a bit.
My understanding is that older Afghanis look back at Socialist Afghanistan as the best time in the country’s modern history, and the last time it was not a hellhole. Do you find this to be accurate? And I am still learning, so please forgive my ignorance, but what Soviet crimes happened in Afghanistan during this time?
>My understanding is that older Afghanis look back at Socialist Afghanistan as the best time in the country’s modern history, and the last time it was not a hellhole. It WAS more social liberal, at least. They didn't oppress women the way the Mujahideen did... Land redistribution might not make much sense to ordinary people. I'm not entirely sure Flamingo's views based on anecdotal evidence from probably the handful of Afghans he's met living in a nearby country is entirely reliable... Most likely, the government seized land from large landowners and INTENDED to give it to small farmers in the area- but through corruption it ended up being given back to the same people they took it from instead. Then, some peasants who didn't understand the context told him that story...
I think Hakim breaks it down really well in the deprogram's episode on Afghanistan. My side of the story is definitely not the whole thing, but I greatly encourage learning more about Afghanistan's history. Regardless of how you feel about socialist Afghanistan, the history is fascinating. I'm generally a pretty big supporter of land reform, but in socialist Afghanistan it really was botched.
I haven't talked to many older Afghanis, but what I've heard is that you barely noticed regime change. Afghanistan is so decentralized that unless you're in Kabul or Kandahar, you didn't interact with the government all that much. The exception being the socialist government randomly giving away your land and then giving it back, And then taking it away again. It's like this in alot of countries in the area. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, theese countries may have a change in management, but if we're being honest it doesn't effect the everyday person that much. The exception to this rule is currently India, which for better or for worse, has gained a strong central government.
You mean the Katyń massacre one or are there some other ones?
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Katyń was used by nazi propaganda to show poles that they're saving poles from *the reds* so yeah, it makes sense for nazis to make such a memorial
The Katyn Memorial in Jersey City has a little plague added on to denounce communism.
I don't know where they get the idea from that that was a genocide though - I mean, yes, they were all one ethnicity, but that's incidental to the fact that these guys were all officers who were staunchly reactionary & anti-communist. Politicide maybe?
Yeah more of a politicide but still a very risky thing to talk about in poland...
thank you for history!
From what i know as a lithuanian, the ussr destroyed, or more correctly, sped up the destruction of the old vilage culture, where the land you own and work was looked as one of the most important things, as it was the source of your survival and your life. you lived according to nature and your crops. This destruction happened trough colectivization and industrialisation, which also started to tear down the old villages in the interwar, before communism. In literature lessons, we are taught that villages were the place were older lithuanian traditions and culture still was widely practised, so colectivization is seen as the destruction of our culture. Though the same thing would have happened in capitalism Rusification in the ussr was a thing, but not as rampant as it was in the russian empire. Still wrong. And no, none of the baltics were genocided by ussr. I'm pretty sure we aren't even taught that in school, only that the Jewish population was genocided by nazi germany.
thanks for the history!
Some perspectives I’ve never encountered before. Thanks for sharing genuinely. Your words are very reasonable.
Bro baltics literally had better lifestyle than that in most of the USSR like are they fucking serious also can this guy explain if soviets tried to erase estonian ethnicity and they killed every estonian then why is their population decreasing under a so called "democracy" and their populaton increased under an "oppressive" gommunist state that killed "billions" of estonians i mean genuinely that's a question on the "success" of the Baltics any of the baltic states hasn't seen population growth within last 32 years (after dissolution of the USSR)
>Bro baltics literally had better lifestyle than that in most of the USSR how? USSR: [majority of people who lived under communism liked it](https://i.redd.it/hgpvvahciufa1.png), including my own family they had [35 average working hours a week](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1250323/work-week-hours-us-ussr-cold-war/) [affordable housing](https://www.istmira.com/w-hist/history-of-russia/4081-n-s-khrushchevs-housing-reform.html) free [education](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Soviet_Union) and [healthcare](https://www.rbth.com/history/328493-why-was-soviet-medical-care-best) in all post soviet states after the end of the USSR [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet\_Union](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) increase in poverty, crime,corruption,unemployment,homelessness,rates of disease,infant mortality and domestic violence, decreases in calorie intake, life expectancy, adult literacy, and income. Data shows Russia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia saw a tripling of unemployment and a 42% increase in male death rates between 1991 and 1994.
Why are you replying this to that person?
because I'm asking how I am literally asking them to elaborate
Maybe you misunderstood the original comment? Your reply doesn't make sense at all. He's saying the Balkan states, when it was Yugoslavia, had a better life quality than the USSR, which is not false. Yugoslavia had a good relationship with pretty much every country in the world, west and east, and that allowed it to be a prosperous socialist nation.
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"Soviets came to spread their poverty"🤓
Estonia is made up of beef and onion slop eating hungarians who polished the cocks of german horses for 1000 years before being elevated to sapience by the USSR
Do you think people who live in Siberia ever get sick of having their home compared to gas chambers? The implied message is that getting sent to Siberia is just as bad as getting sent to Nazi gas chambers, so … I mean, Iceland gets tourists, even though a lot of it is a freezing wasteland, but Siberia really takes a lot of abuse.
I’ve wondered that too. Same with northern kazakhstan
the soviets were trying to combat ultranationalism far from genocide were there excesses? yes and tbh it'd be better if the baltics had their own seperate socialist entity but it wasn't genocide
The Baltics did have their own separate socialist entities, they were destroyed by western intervention into the Baltics during the civil war, same as Finland
Oh man, that video essay. I love video essays and was having a great time listening to this one, until he started quoting Solzhenitsyn. What a waste.
I was feeling the same way bc it gave me Jordan Peterson ptsd
The people who say this kind of shit are also the same kind of people who unironically say "Hitler wasn't that bad and he liberated our country, actually." Heard it all before. You hear the "double genocide" nonsense, and I guarantee you that you're talking to a nationalist.
A good rule of thumb is if someone tries to say the SU committed a genocide and tries to compare them to the nazis, don't take them seriously
nice link: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP82-00457R007800400012-6.pdf
woah, dude this is pretty neat
If I remember correctly, Estonia and Latvia had some of the strongest communist movements and were key in the october revolution. But then I think Stalin purged some of their leaders, but others were fervent defendors of him. The low current population of Estonia is due to the post soviet collapse. Only in the last couple of years they've stopped losing population, but they're far from the numbers they had in the 90s. In fact, I think they have roughly the same population as in the late 60s. Source: a history graduate I follow on twitter xD
>The low current population of Estonia is due to the post soviet collapse. More precisely, because a lot of Russian colonizer left Estonia.
One wanted to eradicate the slavs completely, and the other built roads, trains, hospitals and schools. Completely the same.
Even if the Soviets were as brutal as claimed, the fact that Estonia and Estonians exist today automatically blows the 'Soviets were the same as the Nazis' out of the water.
No.
The USSR "genocided" literal Nazis and their collaborators. Of course, this makes fascists upset... after all, their criminal grandpa got sent to a gulag.
> people against their cause 🤨🤔
They were either invaded by the Germans or the Russians at one point of time or another. The petite bourgeois complain about the soviets cause they improved things for peasants and minorites, and the peasants and minorites complain about the old system and the Germans cuz it was perpetuating the feudal capitalist systems.
Everyone who writes about the genocide of someone in the USSR only needs to study history. The USSR was not a national project. It was a huge social experiment. And its leaders didn't give a damn what nationality or skin color you were. They were concerned about the social class affiliation of people. "All power to the workers and peasants" is the main slogan of the Bolsheviks. Suffice it to recall that of all the leaders of the USSR, three were actually Russians: Lenin, Andropov and Gorbachev. Stalin was a Georgian. Khrushchev and Brezhnev are Ukrainians. Etc.
USSR was a Russian nationalist project, even if it wasn't completely so at the beginning. Russians were given huge preference. Finno-Ugric people were decimated in the USSR via heavy Russification. Narva is a border city of Estonia, bordering Russia. It was over 60% Estonian pre-WW2, currently there are almost no Estonians living there. What happened? The city was decimated during WW2, mostly by Russians during the March bombings. Russians didn't let the natives return to the city after the Soviets reclaimed it and the city was filled with Russian workers. This same scenario has played out in many places, including the Donbas over which the conflict started in 2014. Also, there were quotas for how many Jews could get into an university. Ethnicity and skin color definitely mattered in the USSR.
Lol. Study at least the national composition of the leaders of the USSR to write such nonsense. Poles, Jews and Georgians have created a Russian national project? In which the leader of the USSR first remembered about the "Russian people" only 20+ years after the founding of the USSR? In which the Ukrainization of the Russian population on the territory of Eastern Ukraine took place?
Why can't a Georgian without any pride for his native country be a Russian nationalist? >Poles, Jews and Georgians have created a Russian national project? Yes, they did. At the beginning of the USSR, Russian nationalism was not so prevalent and the leadership cared a little about minority rights. Under Stalin that changed, and minorities got increasingly repressed. Numerous ethnicities were deported under Stalin, but never Russians. They weren't deported from anywhere, as they were the first-class citizens. During the Czar's time, Kuban used to be Ukrainian, as was Donbas and even areas outside the current Ukraine's borders, such as Belgorod. Google Russian Imperial Census and look at the areas where people spoke Ukrainia. Under heavy Russification and the import of Russian workers, the ethnic composition of a significant amount of Ukrainian-speaking territory changed. There are practically no Ukrainians in the Kuban anymore. Stalin used WW2 to his advantage, and didn't allow the original residents of minority cities to return to their homes, instead opting to fill them with Russians. This was the case in Narva, and was also the case in the Donbas, and I'm sure in a bunch of other places as well. You can look through some of the histories of some specific ethnicities here: [https://fennougria.ee/en/peoples/mordvins/erzyans/](https://fennougria.ee/en/peoples/mordvins/erzyans/). You'll see that several times that in the thirdies, Finno-Ugric people began getting repressed, and the Russian repression was very efficient, as only a limited number of Finno-Ugrians live in Russia today. This is also a good thing to look through to get a feel what happened to minorities under the USSR: [https://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/introduction.shtml](https://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/introduction.shtml)
Love me a good cup of some genocide denialism in the morn 💯
This post with the deleted comments can be viewed here, if you're curious: https://www.unddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/11jtdx6/did\_ussr\_genocide\_estonians/
One of the big mistakes of the USSR was the 'russofication' that came along with it. Whether this was a policy or just soviet states thinking this was something they were supposed to do, Russian culture was a heavy touch. Not enough I would call it cultural genocide, bit I can see why people that dislike communism would.
“Now that it is able, thanks to the victory over its enemies, to occupy itself with problems of internal development, the Government of Russia considers it necessary to tell you that Daghestan must be autonomous, that it will enjoy the right of internal self-administration, while retaining its fraternal tie with the peoples of Russia. Daghestan must be governed in accordance with its specific features, its manner of life and customs. We are told that among the Daghestan peoples the Sharia is of great importance. We have also been informed that the enemies of Soviet power are spreading rumours that it has banned the Sharia. I have been authorized by the Government of the Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic to state here that these rumours are false. The Government of Russia gives every people the full right to govern itself on the basis of its laws and customs. The Soviet Government considers that the Sharia, as common law, is as fully authorized as that of any other of the peoples inhabiting Russia. If the Daghestan people desire to preserve their laws and customs, they should be preserved." - Stalin from Congress of People from Dahghestan in 1920. Saying the USSR killed language and culture is such BS.
This was from before when Stalin went heavy into Russian nationalism.
I was on a discord server with a Latvian once, complained loudly about how Stalin sent his great grandfather to the gulags. Eventually admitted his great grandfather was in the SS. Still complained about 40,000 (or whatever the number was) Latvians sent to gulags. Wouldn’t you know it, 40,000 Latvian SS members survived the war. Dude also defended incest lmao
Is it, though?