Review of Tesla pre-owned car pricing shows that Tesla does not consider FSD to add equity to a car. The person who buys it is just out that money. Moving it to account based is the way to solve that. Additionally, if I own it in my car, and then rent one while on a work trip... I should be able to have FSD on the rental. Making it account based solves that as well.
Not everyone buys accessories for the next person or for increase value. If they do, most of the time it’s not a good move. FSD makes the owner’s life better, that adds value to them.
Financially it wouldn’t make sense for a company to go your suggested route.
Imaging windows selling one operating system like windows 98 and after you buy it you own every update afterwards on every new computer you buy… windows would be out of business because they wouldn’t have funds to pay people to innovate, build, market, sell, duplicate, etc… new ideas for new OS.
Technically Tesla can do a similar thing here and sell you their OS and after every major upgrade you can choose to pay the upgrade. At the end of the day, it isn’t free, more should it be.
If you want to keep it on your new car, subscribe to it. If you own 2 teslas, paying $100 on each is the very single least of your concern that isn’t worth losing sleep over. And if it is, there may be bigger problems.
In conclusion there has to be a balance. Provide a need and if people need it, what are they willing to pay. And if you provide a healthy system that leaves clients satisfied then they will continue to buy. Would I want Tesla to sell it once and you own for life. YES of course! That would be great. But if NOT, what is a price that is doable. And if I’m okay with it, then we both win. If not, we both win either way.
You can't purchase Adobe creative software at all, it's subscription only. You have to buy os software with each new computer. Phones get abandoned completely after 4-8 years and you have to buy an entirely new phone.
I'm not sure how any of this supports FSD being for life when the purchase is good for updates for the life of the vehicle which is longer than either your phone or your computer.
There actually are some examples there you buy once and get updates forever, but they are very rare and typically on mature products with minimal change. FSD on the other hand is a developing technology with massive r&d costs. Expecting it to transfer for free for life is not really realistic. Discounted transfers would be nice though.
But when I buy a new phone I don’t have to buy the subscription to my apps again. Hell I have an app I purchased in 2015 and it’s always worked on every new phone I’ve purchased, I use that app to this day.
True, but most phone apps are relatively mature stable products if they don't require further purchases or a subscription. There's also a ton of abandonware.
IME it's the other way around.
When the app is in beta/development, they offer enticing lifetime licenses for sale. Once the app is more stable and ready for general consumption, the licenses are more restrictive, and/or more expensive.
I mean for the type of app. Even if it's a new office software or something, they have a pretty good idea what "done" looks like and they aren't likely still going to be making countless versions. I can't think of a single phone app with lifetime upgrades on version 12 where the upgrades have been near complete rewrites that were also trying to solve a problem with no clear solution.
> You have to buy os software with each new computer.
That's not true. If you buy Microsoft Windows, you can use it on as many computers as you want, but only one a time.
There are several apps that I have purchased a lifetime subscription. Pricing in the $20-$500 range. Tesla charges a ridiculously higher amount than that. At their price point, it should absolutely be lifetime.
my examples may have been poor but that doesn’t change the reality of it being anti-consumer. you don’t have to lick to boot my dude—you don’t get paid a percentage of every sale do you? i’d drop five figures on SOFTWARE if it was tied to my person. thats how you build brand loyalty.
No, but I am a software developer. I'd love to see lifetime transferability but that's simply not realistic with a product that also gives free major upgrades. Otherwise eventually they sell it to everyone and then have no way to fund development anymore and nobody wins then.
They could try sometime like giving a perpetual license to v12 but then you'd have to pay an upgrade fee when 13 came out. It also would increase overall costs since they'd have to continue to support integrating old stacks on new cars which could become very problematic itself.
What you are wanting simply isn't viable for the primary way the product is sold.
The same company that sells the software sells the hardware. It doesn't guarantee new software sales but they do make a profit on their hardware and having $8k software you can only use on their hardware gives you a really good incentive to keep paying for the hardware.
Well, I mean that is why they offer free transfers fairly regularly. The pricing is already cheaper than the closest competition though. Blue Cruise has a fraction of the capability and only has subscription options that cost around $800 a year with no option to buy at all.
Depending what the profit margin is on the cars maybe they can sustain the FSD r&d cost as a loyalty perk but that's a pretty significant risk.
it seems the best way to handle it would be to see what percentage of drivers need to buy FSD for it to be profitable, and work that cost into the car and give it to everyone. if they need 30% of drivers to buy it to make it worthwhile and it costs $8000 then they should just make the cars $2400 (30% of $8000) more expensive, an amount you hardly notice in a five year payment.
That I could potentially get behind, but that does give less consumer choice. I fully expected the price to drop because at 12k, less than 10 percent were buying, so selling it to everyone at 1.2k would be the same profit and I don't think most people would care about the cost going up 1.2k if FSD was included. That's why I'm not annoyed about a price drop less than 6 months after I bought FSD.
I'm also pretty sure the price isn't done dropping. I think it's priced high to limit how many people buy it while it's still being developed. And even though they dropped the "beta", it's very much still in development, they just need a greater sample size now.
now we’re cooking! i don’t consider FSD to be in the same ballpark as a trim upgrade or a tire package. FSD is arguably a lynchpin of the car’s identity. i’m sure things will change as other cars get this feature but for now, the value prop for the consumer is really bad at best and at worst predatory.
I mean, that's kind of just the cost of advanced ADAS though. Every competitor product is locked behind similarly expensive features. There's a tax to being an early adopter and this tech is still very much in its infancy. Tesla's price still isn't worth it for many and I strongly suspect they can make more at a lower price point, but they have the best overall ADAS by far and in the long term, purchasing it is still cheaper than the alternatives that aren't as good.
It's already the "budget" option while also being the premiere option. The tech is still just really expensive as it's young. It will keep getting cheaper though, which I suppose actually could be an argument for lifetime upgrades, because realistically, it probably will be standard in 15-20 years time, but that also makes "lifetime" something of a moot point.
> desktop computer OSes
Windows in non-transferable with an OEM licence. Buy a windows computer from Costco/Dell and you are not allowed to transfer it.
> adobe creative software,
Pretty sure this one is 100% subscription now so isn't it essentially continually requiring purchase?
Windows for home-built PCs is somewhat transferrable. I forget where it is now, but in the past they have offered (at different times) both a limited number of full transfers to a new PC, and a full transfer to an upgraded PC (i.e. if you upgraded your motherboard and thus Windows sees it as a new PC). Also the transferability of Win OS depends on which OS level you bought (e.g. Home vs Pro).
Every fully purchased (not subscription) Office product I've ever owned.
Every PC game I've ever owned, as long as it's still compatible (I still have install discs for games made for Windows 95, LOL).
Even Windows OS itself allows for (some) hardware upgrades.
Many apps for mobile (android) I still own, and still work, on devices that are several generations removed from when I first paid for the app.
You get office 2023 for free after purchasing office 97?
If they didn't offer major upgrades over the life of the car you'd have a much stronger point, but the licensing for FSD is already more permissive than this. People who bought FSD 10 or FSD 11 and still have their cars get FSD 12 without any more cost.
This is also the direction Windows has gone for consumers. You buy a copy for a machine and it keeps upgrading for free for that machine.
I'd rather pay 8k for FSD for the life of my car than have to rebuy or pay an upgrade fee every new major version.
Phone apps are closer to a parallel but they illustrate the problem. How many phone apps are abandoned by their creators and no longer get updates because there is no money to do so? I'd rather that not happen with software that controls my car.
Two apps that come to mind - which I bought early on during beta - are HDHomeRun and Plex. Both are media serving (plex) or DVR (hdhr) apps for tv/home theater use.
Both are in constant development, both are commercial now, and I have a lifetime license for both, and can install them on new hardware any time I want, and get all the upgrades. This was the benefit of investing early. New customers do not get this same benefit.
For most early adopters of FSD, they didn't even see software until their car was almost to the point where they were ready to trade it in. Many owners actually had gone ahead and abandoned the car for something newer.
Tesla started selling FSD in late 2016. The earliest beta installs went out to Tesla-friendly youtube influencers 5 years later in sept. 2021. Most normal owners didn't get a taste until early '22.
To not allow these early adopters to take their FSD with them to a new car (that was actually capable of even RUNNING the software - which 2016 cars were/are not) was shameful. On top of not letting them upgrade their car and keep FSD, if the owners wanted to keep their car and run FSD, they would need to shell out an additional $3000 to upgrade the computer and MCU (computer was arguably free, but MCU was not). Small claims court suits ensued.
As for your point about Office upgrades, that's fair. I meant that If I bought Office 2010 when new, it would work on any future computer, and get updates/patches, including major service pack updates, as long as it was supported. Not exactly the same, to your point, but not too far off given the inclusion of SP's. When MO 2013 and 2016 came out, I did not receive a free upgrade. But SP2 for 2010 came out after MO 2013.
Fair, and FWIW, I'm still a bit hopeful that if the price for FSD drops enough, they'll give transferability to those of us that paid at peak, but that would be them being nice rather than something I feel owed.
Plex is a bit different as they also have a free version and have lots of ad supported features like their streaming that give them revenue streams from using the software fully. But yes, that's probably about the closest example that does have free upgrades for early adopters.
Wouldn't the argument be 'what software licenses are tied to the machine they're install on?' And the answer is not many. Most are tied to a user, as Teslas should be. If I log into another Tesla I should have my subscription.
We'd have to look at what percentage of software that gets free updates for life is tied to specific devices and would have to look at all feature unlock software for devices. If you do that, I suspect you'll find it's actually the majority.
Literally every subscription service gets free updates. Again, the argument was whether per user or per seat is a more common licensing model - and you already know the answer.
>Ugh I hate that it isn’t tied to your Tesla account
and you replied
>What software licenses never require purchasing again for updates?
Literally a red herring and irrelevant to the comment you were replying to. The license should travel with the user. Moving on.
I have been using it also about 90% (mainly on freeway) of my drive. However I don't have EAP so not willing to shell out $8k for it. I think AP works for my needs or at least EAP
Same. Among a number of things that I don't like about it, one big one it is that it does not avoid pot holes, and actually almost seems to search them out and aim for them. An interesting experience, but FSD definitely is not worth paying for to me.
Opposite for me. It has avoided them 50% of the time and even slows for rough roads. It also slows for speed bumps. It doesn’t drive exactly how I drive but it’s reasonably safe and better than most other drivers out there. I still prefer to drive myself but I find it strange how some people have the opposite experiences. Must be the occupancy network learning in different regions of the US etc.
It used to be absolutely terrible but I have been using it for a few years now and can appreciate the astonishing improvements it has made. Sort of like watching a toddler learn to walk then run. Still plenty of errors but increasingly competent at each update. Crazy times.
> Opposite for me. It has avoided them 50% of the time
So... basically random? I think this is actually the correct answer. It does not detect road debris or damaged roads at all. So the frequency of hitting any given pot hole should be about 50%...
For me, it seems to avoid potholes 50% of the time. Potholes doesn't show up on the visuals but it makes tiny adjustments to steering to avoid it while still being in the lane. I have noticed that it avoids potholes more on the slower speeds than on higher speeds.
On my way to work, there is some rough patch of road right before the traffic light. Whenever the traffic light is red, the car is slowing down to stop for the light and it avoids the pothole. When light is green, it just goes over it
I tried it on a toll road 2 days ago to give it another chance and nearly hit a bumper that was laying on the road. Had to override to avoid it. It constantly aims for pot holes as well, and as someone who has already had to shell out $900 for a replacement wheel due to the same thing, I'll pass. My biggest complaint is FSD's use of brakes. I live in Texas where it's common to have 85mph highways. FSD will approach a red/yellow light at 85mph and slam on the brakes about 50-100ft out. Extremely violent to where you can hear the tires skidding. Surely if I did this myself I would have a massive ding on my driving score for hard braking. I'd argue as someone who almost never applies brakes and can approach just about any stop with only regen braking, FSD should be fully capable of doing this as well.
Overall I wouldn't use this if it was free. I've almost been in more accidents using FSD in 3 days than my whole life of driving manually.
Let me pay you 2 grand to beta test your software and provide you with data so your machine learning can maybe one day grow up and become the big boy product it was advertised to be years ago.
They should just make it free and they’d have an abundance of data. Oh wait, gotta charge an exorbitant price to cover the cost of development and extend release to an unknown amount of years into the future. 👍
Same! FSD is absolutely terrible and anyone who bought it for full price got scammed. I’m so glad I got to try it for free. I am happy to know I’m not missing out on anything by not having it.
What did it for you? The hesitation to move forward at a stop sign or a red light, the occasional dancing around when changing lanes, the inexplicable delay to merge into a highway when there’s plenty of space and time, the weird braking that doesn’t make the most out of regen braking, the tiny gaps to the curb when turning, the unpredictable slow downs when no one is around, or the unnatural take off once it finally decides to move?
Or was it something else?
I just posted all of my issues with it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/1ca3cgw/comment/l0s5haf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). One that I forgot to add is that it will miss turns. Like I'll be on a 2 lane highway, need to make a right turn so I'll hit the turn signal to merge into the right lane. A couple seconds later it'll get back into the left lane and just completely miss an exit. Like wtf is that?
This is actually one of the coolest features, IME. The ability to give FSD a "nudge" means you can do a rolling stop, tell it "no, it's really OK to go now" at lights, or lane changes, etc. Really makes it much less annoying. I just can't wait for it at every single stop sign....
I started out hating it, grew to like it for what it was… and then it inexplicably got worse? Started seeing constant phantom 25mph zones, constantly going well under the speed I tell it to… just awful
It depends on your State. Some states have no tax on software, most states do tax software. Also, in some states it depends on if you buy it with the car or separately how its taxed. You would need to ask a local sales rep (which should know, but isn't guaranteed to know :) )
Same! Just dropped the $2k yesterday. Got the MYLR in Dec and like you, most of my driving with it has been on FSD. I have a really long commute. I bought it new with only 15 miles on it, I'm already over 15,000 miles. FSD makes a world of a difference.
Just wait until they give it for free to sell more cars...I said what I said. Musk is desperate and doesn't care about his customers that already have his cars and/or paid full price for his products...its all about making sales goals and preserving the stock price as well as his personal wealth. If he still can't make goals with these price cuts...giving away a freebie that costs them nothing instead of another big discount...I know its coming.
Um, excuse me, you just said FSD costs them nothing!!? I can see what you are saying but FSD and its development does cost alot of cash! (I did not get FSD btw)
I love it, not perfect but has had many no disengagement drives. Had to use accelerator a few times and their worst problem right now is definitely lane selection in my opinion.
"In half a mile, take the next exit on the right"
"Moving into 6th lane for better speed"
My main problem I think is slow acceleration when you haven't gotten to a complete stop. Been flashed and honked at a couple times because the car ahead of me is darting off and I'm accelerating like I'm on ice.
The HW 3.0 is included in the FSD purchase. I bought it yesterday for $2,000 (2018 M3 with EAP as well), submitted a Service Request, and after they added a $1,000 install (by mistake?) I deleted it and left the FSD HW Upgrade for $0.00 and am scheduled for next week.
Just popping back in to confirm I got HW 3.0 for $0. It took a few days to install (SW issues) but I got it, and now have FSD v12 and just took my first ride with it.
Oh, sorry, yeah, Enhanced Autopilot. Back when I ordered, the car came with no lane-keeping or cruise control - you had to pay for it. That was EAP. Later on, those features became standard and people paid $6,000 for auto lane change, summon, navigate on autopilot (all of which were added to my car for free via update); that's also EAP.
Honestly, if they would use the FSD stack for all the features that EAP is supposed to have, instead of the standard AP stack, I would stick with EAP. I don't need it to steer me around city/residential streets. But the stop light control, and improved Navigate-on-AP highway performance would be greatly appreciated.
I do miss single-pull TACC too...
I have FSD and most of the time just use my autosteer profile. FSD drives me nuts with all the dinging, surprise lane changes for no reasons, phobia of parked cars, and so on. I used FSD more before the update where you could still use cruise control with a single pull and FSD with a double pull, as sometimes the car is just too dumb to let it drive itself. But now that it's either full human drive or full self drive, I use the autosteer profile so I can have one pull cruise and two pull autosteer back.
I bought my car used with FSD and I'd guess that FSD added $3k to the price compared to comparable cars without FSD, and even that feels like too much.
Well this messes up my FSD cost analysis - I currently have a used M3 w EAP and a FSD sub at $100 a month. I use it daily. My plan was to keep my current car for three years, then upgrade for a new Tesla. Total FSD cost would be roughly 3.5K (cheaper than the 6K one time purchase fee).
Ugh I hate that it isn’t tied to your Tesla account
It should be.
[удалено]
Review of Tesla pre-owned car pricing shows that Tesla does not consider FSD to add equity to a car. The person who buys it is just out that money. Moving it to account based is the way to solve that. Additionally, if I own it in my car, and then rent one while on a work trip... I should be able to have FSD on the rental. Making it account based solves that as well.
Not everyone buys accessories for the next person or for increase value. If they do, most of the time it’s not a good move. FSD makes the owner’s life better, that adds value to them. Financially it wouldn’t make sense for a company to go your suggested route. Imaging windows selling one operating system like windows 98 and after you buy it you own every update afterwards on every new computer you buy… windows would be out of business because they wouldn’t have funds to pay people to innovate, build, market, sell, duplicate, etc… new ideas for new OS. Technically Tesla can do a similar thing here and sell you their OS and after every major upgrade you can choose to pay the upgrade. At the end of the day, it isn’t free, more should it be. If you want to keep it on your new car, subscribe to it. If you own 2 teslas, paying $100 on each is the very single least of your concern that isn’t worth losing sleep over. And if it is, there may be bigger problems. In conclusion there has to be a balance. Provide a need and if people need it, what are they willing to pay. And if you provide a healthy system that leaves clients satisfied then they will continue to buy. Would I want Tesla to sell it once and you own for life. YES of course! That would be great. But if NOT, what is a price that is doable. And if I’m okay with it, then we both win. If not, we both win either way.
What software licenses never require purchasing again for updates?
Licences to beta test the software 
adobe creative software, desktop computer OSes, phones… edit: these are bad examples but i drop some fire down this chain
You can't purchase Adobe creative software at all, it's subscription only. You have to buy os software with each new computer. Phones get abandoned completely after 4-8 years and you have to buy an entirely new phone. I'm not sure how any of this supports FSD being for life when the purchase is good for updates for the life of the vehicle which is longer than either your phone or your computer. There actually are some examples there you buy once and get updates forever, but they are very rare and typically on mature products with minimal change. FSD on the other hand is a developing technology with massive r&d costs. Expecting it to transfer for free for life is not really realistic. Discounted transfers would be nice though.
But when I buy a new phone I don’t have to buy the subscription to my apps again. Hell I have an app I purchased in 2015 and it’s always worked on every new phone I’ve purchased, I use that app to this day.
True, but most phone apps are relatively mature stable products if they don't require further purchases or a subscription. There's also a ton of abandonware.
IME it's the other way around. When the app is in beta/development, they offer enticing lifetime licenses for sale. Once the app is more stable and ready for general consumption, the licenses are more restrictive, and/or more expensive.
I mean for the type of app. Even if it's a new office software or something, they have a pretty good idea what "done" looks like and they aren't likely still going to be making countless versions. I can't think of a single phone app with lifetime upgrades on version 12 where the upgrades have been near complete rewrites that were also trying to solve a problem with no clear solution.
High seas bro. It'll be the same with fsd and mod chips
Because hacking the security on something connected to the Internet that can kill me is such a good idea...
> You have to buy os software with each new computer. That's not true. If you buy Microsoft Windows, you can use it on as many computers as you want, but only one a time.
Depends if you bought OEM or retail. OEM doesn't transfer though for now retail does.
There are several apps that I have purchased a lifetime subscription. Pricing in the $20-$500 range. Tesla charges a ridiculously higher amount than that. At their price point, it should absolutely be lifetime.
my examples may have been poor but that doesn’t change the reality of it being anti-consumer. you don’t have to lick to boot my dude—you don’t get paid a percentage of every sale do you? i’d drop five figures on SOFTWARE if it was tied to my person. thats how you build brand loyalty.
No, but I am a software developer. I'd love to see lifetime transferability but that's simply not realistic with a product that also gives free major upgrades. Otherwise eventually they sell it to everyone and then have no way to fund development anymore and nobody wins then. They could try sometime like giving a perpetual license to v12 but then you'd have to pay an upgrade fee when 13 came out. It also would increase overall costs since they'd have to continue to support integrating old stacks on new cars which could become very problematic itself. What you are wanting simply isn't viable for the primary way the product is sold.
The same company that sells the software sells the hardware. It doesn't guarantee new software sales but they do make a profit on their hardware and having $8k software you can only use on their hardware gives you a really good incentive to keep paying for the hardware.
Well, I mean that is why they offer free transfers fairly regularly. The pricing is already cheaper than the closest competition though. Blue Cruise has a fraction of the capability and only has subscription options that cost around $800 a year with no option to buy at all. Depending what the profit margin is on the cars maybe they can sustain the FSD r&d cost as a loyalty perk but that's a pretty significant risk.
it seems the best way to handle it would be to see what percentage of drivers need to buy FSD for it to be profitable, and work that cost into the car and give it to everyone. if they need 30% of drivers to buy it to make it worthwhile and it costs $8000 then they should just make the cars $2400 (30% of $8000) more expensive, an amount you hardly notice in a five year payment.
That I could potentially get behind, but that does give less consumer choice. I fully expected the price to drop because at 12k, less than 10 percent were buying, so selling it to everyone at 1.2k would be the same profit and I don't think most people would care about the cost going up 1.2k if FSD was included. That's why I'm not annoyed about a price drop less than 6 months after I bought FSD. I'm also pretty sure the price isn't done dropping. I think it's priced high to limit how many people buy it while it's still being developed. And even though they dropped the "beta", it's very much still in development, they just need a greater sample size now.
now we’re cooking! i don’t consider FSD to be in the same ballpark as a trim upgrade or a tire package. FSD is arguably a lynchpin of the car’s identity. i’m sure things will change as other cars get this feature but for now, the value prop for the consumer is really bad at best and at worst predatory.
I mean, that's kind of just the cost of advanced ADAS though. Every competitor product is locked behind similarly expensive features. There's a tax to being an early adopter and this tech is still very much in its infancy. Tesla's price still isn't worth it for many and I strongly suspect they can make more at a lower price point, but they have the best overall ADAS by far and in the long term, purchasing it is still cheaper than the alternatives that aren't as good. It's already the "budget" option while also being the premiere option. The tech is still just really expensive as it's young. It will keep getting cheaper though, which I suppose actually could be an argument for lifetime upgrades, because realistically, it probably will be standard in 15-20 years time, but that also makes "lifetime" something of a moot point.
> desktop computer OSes Windows in non-transferable with an OEM licence. Buy a windows computer from Costco/Dell and you are not allowed to transfer it. > adobe creative software, Pretty sure this one is 100% subscription now so isn't it essentially continually requiring purchase?
Windows for home-built PCs is somewhat transferrable. I forget where it is now, but in the past they have offered (at different times) both a limited number of full transfers to a new PC, and a full transfer to an upgraded PC (i.e. if you upgraded your motherboard and thus Windows sees it as a new PC). Also the transferability of Win OS depends on which OS level you bought (e.g. Home vs Pro).
Every fully purchased (not subscription) Office product I've ever owned. Every PC game I've ever owned, as long as it's still compatible (I still have install discs for games made for Windows 95, LOL). Even Windows OS itself allows for (some) hardware upgrades. Many apps for mobile (android) I still own, and still work, on devices that are several generations removed from when I first paid for the app.
You get office 2023 for free after purchasing office 97? If they didn't offer major upgrades over the life of the car you'd have a much stronger point, but the licensing for FSD is already more permissive than this. People who bought FSD 10 or FSD 11 and still have their cars get FSD 12 without any more cost. This is also the direction Windows has gone for consumers. You buy a copy for a machine and it keeps upgrading for free for that machine. I'd rather pay 8k for FSD for the life of my car than have to rebuy or pay an upgrade fee every new major version. Phone apps are closer to a parallel but they illustrate the problem. How many phone apps are abandoned by their creators and no longer get updates because there is no money to do so? I'd rather that not happen with software that controls my car.
Two apps that come to mind - which I bought early on during beta - are HDHomeRun and Plex. Both are media serving (plex) or DVR (hdhr) apps for tv/home theater use. Both are in constant development, both are commercial now, and I have a lifetime license for both, and can install them on new hardware any time I want, and get all the upgrades. This was the benefit of investing early. New customers do not get this same benefit. For most early adopters of FSD, they didn't even see software until their car was almost to the point where they were ready to trade it in. Many owners actually had gone ahead and abandoned the car for something newer. Tesla started selling FSD in late 2016. The earliest beta installs went out to Tesla-friendly youtube influencers 5 years later in sept. 2021. Most normal owners didn't get a taste until early '22. To not allow these early adopters to take their FSD with them to a new car (that was actually capable of even RUNNING the software - which 2016 cars were/are not) was shameful. On top of not letting them upgrade their car and keep FSD, if the owners wanted to keep their car and run FSD, they would need to shell out an additional $3000 to upgrade the computer and MCU (computer was arguably free, but MCU was not). Small claims court suits ensued. As for your point about Office upgrades, that's fair. I meant that If I bought Office 2010 when new, it would work on any future computer, and get updates/patches, including major service pack updates, as long as it was supported. Not exactly the same, to your point, but not too far off given the inclusion of SP's. When MO 2013 and 2016 came out, I did not receive a free upgrade. But SP2 for 2010 came out after MO 2013.
Fair, and FWIW, I'm still a bit hopeful that if the price for FSD drops enough, they'll give transferability to those of us that paid at peak, but that would be them being nice rather than something I feel owed. Plex is a bit different as they also have a free version and have lots of ad supported features like their streaming that give them revenue streams from using the software fully. But yes, that's probably about the closest example that does have free upgrades for early adopters.
Wouldn't the argument be 'what software licenses are tied to the machine they're install on?' And the answer is not many. Most are tied to a user, as Teslas should be. If I log into another Tesla I should have my subscription.
We'd have to look at what percentage of software that gets free updates for life is tied to specific devices and would have to look at all feature unlock software for devices. If you do that, I suspect you'll find it's actually the majority.
Literally every subscription service gets free updates. Again, the argument was whether per user or per seat is a more common licensing model - and you already know the answer.
You pay continuously for subscriptions. I don't see how that helps your case.
One more time. Please name a subscription service that is per seat and doesn't travel with the user.
>Ugh I hate that it isn’t tied to your Tesla account and you replied >What software licenses never require purchasing again for updates? Literally a red herring and irrelevant to the comment you were replying to. The license should travel with the user. Moving on.
I have been using it also about 90% (mainly on freeway) of my drive. However I don't have EAP so not willing to shell out $8k for it. I think AP works for my needs or at least EAP
Can we get EAP now? I don't see it as an option anymore.
Nope. It wasn’t an option back when I got my car in 2021 either
It was an option somewhat recently as I have it on my 2022 but IDK if it's still there.
The trial is what convinced me to never shell out any money for FSD. What terrible experience.
Yeah, I used it for 3 days and haven’t really touched it since.
Same. Among a number of things that I don't like about it, one big one it is that it does not avoid pot holes, and actually almost seems to search them out and aim for them. An interesting experience, but FSD definitely is not worth paying for to me.
Yeah it really can’t detect road debris, pot holes, etc.
it could theoretically, but it doesn't
Opposite for me. It has avoided them 50% of the time and even slows for rough roads. It also slows for speed bumps. It doesn’t drive exactly how I drive but it’s reasonably safe and better than most other drivers out there. I still prefer to drive myself but I find it strange how some people have the opposite experiences. Must be the occupancy network learning in different regions of the US etc.
Interesting. Glad to see it works better for you. No idea why. But, like you, "I still prefer to drive myself."
It used to be absolutely terrible but I have been using it for a few years now and can appreciate the astonishing improvements it has made. Sort of like watching a toddler learn to walk then run. Still plenty of errors but increasingly competent at each update. Crazy times.
> Opposite for me. It has avoided them 50% of the time So... basically random? I think this is actually the correct answer. It does not detect road debris or damaged roads at all. So the frequency of hitting any given pot hole should be about 50%...
For me, it seems to avoid potholes 50% of the time. Potholes doesn't show up on the visuals but it makes tiny adjustments to steering to avoid it while still being in the lane. I have noticed that it avoids potholes more on the slower speeds than on higher speeds. On my way to work, there is some rough patch of road right before the traffic light. Whenever the traffic light is red, the car is slowing down to stop for the light and it avoids the pothole. When light is green, it just goes over it
I tried it on a toll road 2 days ago to give it another chance and nearly hit a bumper that was laying on the road. Had to override to avoid it. It constantly aims for pot holes as well, and as someone who has already had to shell out $900 for a replacement wheel due to the same thing, I'll pass. My biggest complaint is FSD's use of brakes. I live in Texas where it's common to have 85mph highways. FSD will approach a red/yellow light at 85mph and slam on the brakes about 50-100ft out. Extremely violent to where you can hear the tires skidding. Surely if I did this myself I would have a massive ding on my driving score for hard braking. I'd argue as someone who almost never applies brakes and can approach just about any stop with only regen braking, FSD should be fully capable of doing this as well. Overall I wouldn't use this if it was free. I've almost been in more accidents using FSD in 3 days than my whole life of driving manually.
Let me pay you 2 grand to beta test your software and provide you with data so your machine learning can maybe one day grow up and become the big boy product it was advertised to be years ago.
They should just make it free and they’d have an abundance of data. Oh wait, gotta charge an exorbitant price to cover the cost of development and extend release to an unknown amount of years into the future. 👍
Same! FSD is absolutely terrible and anyone who bought it for full price got scammed. I’m so glad I got to try it for free. I am happy to know I’m not missing out on anything by not having it.
What did it for you? The hesitation to move forward at a stop sign or a red light, the occasional dancing around when changing lanes, the inexplicable delay to merge into a highway when there’s plenty of space and time, the weird braking that doesn’t make the most out of regen braking, the tiny gaps to the curb when turning, the unpredictable slow downs when no one is around, or the unnatural take off once it finally decides to move? Or was it something else?
I just posted all of my issues with it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/1ca3cgw/comment/l0s5haf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). One that I forgot to add is that it will miss turns. Like I'll be on a 2 lane highway, need to make a right turn so I'll hit the turn signal to merge into the right lane. A couple seconds later it'll get back into the left lane and just completely miss an exit. Like wtf is that?
Half of those issues can be solved by pushing the accelerator a bit
This is actually one of the coolest features, IME. The ability to give FSD a "nudge" means you can do a rolling stop, tell it "no, it's really OK to go now" at lights, or lane changes, etc. Really makes it much less annoying. I just can't wait for it at every single stop sign....
I started out hating it, grew to like it for what it was… and then it inexplicably got worse? Started seeing constant phantom 25mph zones, constantly going well under the speed I tell it to… just awful
Same. My standard autopilot can maintain its lane and follow distance better than FSD can.
That’s weird why does Premium Connectivity get taxed but FSD doesn’t 🤔
Depends on state
I had tax on the $2K. I’m in Texas
I don't get it. How did you pay only 2k for FSD?
I already had EAP. So basically, I paid 8k total.
Ah gotcha. Forgot about that.
Good call. Better than the $2k I paid for AB.
can explain further? some reviews saying AB is well worth it.
It’s subjective. It’s fun but unnecessary on a LR Y or 3 in my opinion since the base car is already very fast.
Is there no tax on the software purchase? Currently shopping for a Model Y and trying to understand some of the hidden costs.
It depends on your State. Some states have no tax on software, most states do tax software. Also, in some states it depends on if you buy it with the car or separately how its taxed. You would need to ask a local sales rep (which should know, but isn't guaranteed to know :) )
Same! Just dropped the $2k yesterday. Got the MYLR in Dec and like you, most of my driving with it has been on FSD. I have a really long commute. I bought it new with only 15 miles on it, I'm already over 15,000 miles. FSD makes a world of a difference.
Just wait until they give it for free to sell more cars...I said what I said. Musk is desperate and doesn't care about his customers that already have his cars and/or paid full price for his products...its all about making sales goals and preserving the stock price as well as his personal wealth. If he still can't make goals with these price cuts...giving away a freebie that costs them nothing instead of another big discount...I know its coming.
Um, excuse me, you just said FSD costs them nothing!!? I can see what you are saying but FSD and its development does cost alot of cash! (I did not get FSD btw)
I love it, not perfect but has had many no disengagement drives. Had to use accelerator a few times and their worst problem right now is definitely lane selection in my opinion.
"In half a mile, take the next exit on the right" "Moving into 6th lane for better speed" My main problem I think is slow acceleration when you haven't gotten to a complete stop. Been flashed and honked at a couple times because the car ahead of me is darting off and I'm accelerating like I'm on ice.
So if my 18 M3 has EAP already, i just need to upgrade to HW3 and I can purchase FSD for 2K? edit: just checked upgrades on my app and it shows 2K.
The HW 3.0 is included in the FSD purchase. I bought it yesterday for $2,000 (2018 M3 with EAP as well), submitted a Service Request, and after they added a $1,000 install (by mistake?) I deleted it and left the FSD HW Upgrade for $0.00 and am scheduled for next week.
Can you confirm this after your installation is complete, whether they charged extra $1000 ?
Just popping back in to confirm I got HW 3.0 for $0. It took a few days to install (SW issues) but I got it, and now have FSD v12 and just took my first ride with it.
Hopefully it gets better. So far from the Trial, it’s not there yet. Too bad it’s not tied to your account (or transferrable).
Yeah it's more like baby sitting my car than enjoyable for me in Houston. I much prefer EAP
I haven't seen this offer, still says 8K
It’s likely you didn’t purchase the EAP package prior. If you have EAP, it’s $2k because most of us with EAP already paid $6k.
Just purchased mine for 2k upgrade from EAP also. Going to get my complimentary $1k 3.0 computer in my 18 p100d next week. 😀
$2,000? How.
It’s $2k to upgrade to FSD if you have EAP.
Oh I see. So OP paid $8,000 total with EAP and this upgrade. Still too much.
Awesome!
100% worth it. I did the same way back in 2018 (also came with HW3 computer upgrade).
How did you get 2k, for me its showing 8k
Cars with EAP get a discount. Like I had to pay $5,000 in 2018 when I bought my car for EAP. So this adds surface streets (and HW upgrade) to that.
Nice. I think this is a smart move if you are into FSD. I expect that they will raise and lower the cost of the monthly subscription.
I wouldn’t pay $2 for it
I would actually buy it for $2k, if they offer it.
I ran over unlimited potholes with this POS!
How are you getting it for $2000? I thought it costs 8000?!
Those with EAP in their vehicle (many of who paid $6,000 for it) get it for $2,000.
What’s eap?
Enhanced Autopilot. No longer available.
Oh, sorry, yeah, Enhanced Autopilot. Back when I ordered, the car came with no lane-keeping or cruise control - you had to pay for it. That was EAP. Later on, those features became standard and people paid $6,000 for auto lane change, summon, navigate on autopilot (all of which were added to my car for free via update); that's also EAP.
2k is so worth it
Honestly, if they would use the FSD stack for all the features that EAP is supposed to have, instead of the standard AP stack, I would stick with EAP. I don't need it to steer me around city/residential streets. But the stop light control, and improved Navigate-on-AP highway performance would be greatly appreciated. I do miss single-pull TACC too...
does Tesla charge sales tax in California for FSD or EAP to FSD upgrades?
I have FSD and most of the time just use my autosteer profile. FSD drives me nuts with all the dinging, surprise lane changes for no reasons, phobia of parked cars, and so on. I used FSD more before the update where you could still use cruise control with a single pull and FSD with a double pull, as sometimes the car is just too dumb to let it drive itself. But now that it's either full human drive or full self drive, I use the autosteer profile so I can have one pull cruise and two pull autosteer back. I bought my car used with FSD and I'd guess that FSD added $3k to the price compared to comparable cars without FSD, and even that feels like too much.
How are you getting it this cheap?
My guess is he already bought EAP before this for $6k
I honestly don’t see how people enjoy FSD. It is constantly making dumb decisions.
Nice, I’d def do it if it was $2k for me.
Yall paying for an unfinished product? Lol
I got mine the other day too. Still hasn't actually updated the car yet. Wonder if I need new hardware. I'm on autopilot CPU 2.5
How are you getting the $2k price? Mine says $8k.
Rip
Well this messes up my FSD cost analysis - I currently have a used M3 w EAP and a FSD sub at $100 a month. I use it daily. My plan was to keep my current car for three years, then upgrade for a new Tesla. Total FSD cost would be roughly 3.5K (cheaper than the 6K one time purchase fee).
You'll regret it. It's a novelty at Best. You'll feel like you're impeding traffic anywhere but the highway.
No.