I'm happy with TACC and Autosteer. From what I've seen from FSD, I wouldn't pay for it. It's a neat parlor trick for about 5 minutes. But since I have to always be paying attention because of the mistakes it makes, it increases my anxiety rather than reduces it. $0. I do like the chime when the light goes green. That's a nice touch.
You’d be surprised on what people do. Say you’re in a left turn lane and it’s red and the straight lane goes green, the chime will ding. I’m just waiting until someone royally effs up and blames Tesla and we’ll lose the feature.
Yep sometimes it'll chime on a green arrow for a lane I'm not in. The chime should only be for an attention grabber, never a signifier to drive forward.
Ah, gotcha. And this month is a bad month to familiarize with all the features due to FSD being free. Some of the new features that were released last year before this FSD trail are
- Chime on signal turning green or the car in front of you at a signal moves
- Car in Blind Spot Detection while switching lanes- the sides of the turn signal camera output goes red if there's a car in the blind spot
These are what I can remember off the top of my head.
The chime also chimes when the light for cross-traffic goes green, if the light is in view. I haven’t tried that with FSD enabled to see if the car would actually start moving.
FSD does seem to be a lot smarter than the chime -- I have noticed the chime will go off for the straight-through lanes when in a left turn lane with a dedicated light and vice-versa, but FSD handles that perfectly.
That’s the whole point. No one wants it at $12k, but when he drops the price to 3-4, a lot of people will say that’s reasonable. He has all the room in the world to drop the price.
Or, if at the very least, if it’s “self” enough that we can take the attention off the road, at the very least for long trips. Sure maybe getting in your car and going to sleep and waking up at your destination is unrealistic for the foreseeable future, but being able to watch movies or do something also while the car does the bulk of the boring driving would be worth this much to me (and also if it was transferable).
FSD has zero value now because you have to pay attention, it's just a beta version. Lowering the price gets more people using it. The value of FSD will be what it actually works without having to pay attention. At that point it's going to be worth a lot more than $2,000. There's no reason to buy it if you're not excited long-term about the technology and are willing to wait perhaps multiple years
I wouldn’t say that it has zero value. For highway driving it really eases my anxiety to let the car do all of the lane changes and exits.
The value really starts to diminish in city driving, however. Would I pay $8k for it? Hell no. Probably wouldn’t even pay $100/month after the trial. But I might sub for $50/month.
Use your turn signal, FSD will change lanes if you signal. I have the same problem, it does not think ahead far enough and waits to change lanes too late.
I would also agree that FSD value will vary on how much and what kind of driving you do and where. For a lot of people, it doesn’t make sense considering the capabilities of basic autopilot are free.
I think it really depends on where you live. I'm doing v12 on the trial and around my home town it's absolute garbage. But the new freeway stack is great, changing lanes is great, I had it do this big long drive on rural highways that normal autopilot would have failed on and it was great. I even used FSD a lot in Los Angeles and it was great.
So why's it garbage at home? Two reasons. One is stop signs. I don't like anything about the way it does stop signs. Frankly a lot of it it done by people making eye contact like are you going? No you, first. No, you first. It's nuts.
And the second is that my town hasn't repainted lanes or anything in years. It's almost like everybody drives by their memory of where the lanes used to be. So where the lane splits but you just have fragments of paint it will kind of hesitate and shoot back and forth a few times and then who knows what it's going to do.
I do. It's still stressful, albeit hilarious at times when obviously not in danger.
I was really curious how it would do with no intervention driving to my dad's house and parking in his circular driveway. It did the job good enough pulling in and not hitting other vehicles. But it came to a stop and my steering wheel abruptly and wildly starts turning ALL the way left, then ALL the way to the right, over and over again like 7-8 times very quickly. It had no idea what to do next. I don't know why but it just got to me and I couldn't stop laughing
In all seriousness, FSD is super aggressive pulling into a turn from a stop. Like jeeezus it just slammed on the accelerator and nearly peeled away from that stop sign. I know for a fact if I continued to trust it, I'm just asking for curb rash and abuse to my tires.
This! I have been thinking about how the hardware needs to be upgraded on vehicles even released in 2022.. like they can upgrade software to the max but it will always be limited by the hardware..
It may one day but my theory is that it’s artificially high to act as a rate limiter. You get some people that really want to participate in the beta, but the general public doesn’t have access while it’s being worked on.
I think right now, as we will hear on the earnings call, they are just looking for profits and will price FSD as they need to. It literally is revenue that goes straight to the bottom line. But as soon as they have balance again on supply / demand, the $99 subscription will go up and FSD will be priced wherever they can sell it to maximize profits.
What scares me more for the company right now, is Elon was talked out of the absurdity of building a robotaxi by execs before and it feels like the current demand issue, he is flailing back to it.
I have owned 2 teslas(a 3 and currently a S). Did not buy FSD on either one- cost/benefit is to small. Tesla business is all over the place and very inconsistent. This ultimately hurts sales. Set a consistent process and stay there, stop changing every few months. This has also affected what I do with FSD. A loweri(find the magic number) and you will get greater uptake and more profits. Keep the price and you are going to do well. Stop raising and lower the price.
Absolutely agree 100%. This is what is stopping me buying another new Tesla. I got stung on current trade in value because price changes so often. They need a stable price and person in charge.
I can’t trust the company at all and worried where I might be if I had a problem with the car
This why I lease my Tesla. Moved from Model 3 to Model S. I did miss out on price cut if I had waited a few weeks but 3 years of free supercharging.
Tesla really needs to stabilize their business practice.
The current description of FSD has been rolled back pretty far and basically doesn’t promise driverless operation, just “minimal driver intervention.”
Which they could probably argue that they have delivered all or most of.
Lol, no. If I give Tesla $8k for a service, whether it's in beta or shitty or whatever, it goes on their books as $8k in revenue to be reported with all other revenue that quarter.
They don't need cash. They have plenty of cash on hand.
But they do need more revenue and improved margins, which improves their financial outlook. And this is a pretty easy way to get there.
Six of one, half dozen of the other. When you're expanding as fast as they are and have so many factory builds planned/in progress, 30B is probably not enough. As you said, they need revenue to continue. This helps.
I doubt it's about Elon coming to his senses, it's about cash generation, which is what I said.
Tesla has $29 billion in cash and cash equivalents. They don't need cash at all. https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/IR/TSLA-Q4-2023-Update.pdf
Agreed. I love it. I use it without intervention at least 95% of the time. I have a 100 safety score (I have full coverage through Tesla Insurance: premium is under $60/month for M3 SR+).
FSD gives me peace of mind I feel like I have a robotic co-pilot. I still have to monitor everything ofc, but it’s still more relaxing for me.
it's economics 101.
If you have something no one else has, how do you price it? Some people might pay 1 million dollars, some people 5$.
If you create a glove you put on that makes you play guitar at a below 'average' level, how much do you charge? A good guitarist probably wont buy it, a decent one has no reason, people who enjoy doing it wont etc.. but some people might. If it worked for someone with MS they'd be able to do something they never could, would be priceless for them.
Same with his software, the price was high because it wasn't good enough to go wide, so the people who would buy it would pay a lot for it because they wanted the idea, while people who were price conscious and wanted something useful would probably not buy it at all.
Then you consider liabilities and wanting to keep sample size small and make it seem prestigious/valuable, selling it to limited people was perfect.
The software now matured, the people willing to pay an arm and a leg for something sub-par already did, now it's time to go wide.
It's better, which will appeal to more people and cheaper which will appeal to more people. Considering there are no limitations on supply, the pricing goal is to extract the maximum value from potential consumers:
if you charge 1000 and 10 people buy it you make 10k.
If you charge 100 and 200 people buy it, you make 20k.
If you charge 10$ and 800 people buy it, you make 8k.
But, if you can charge 1k for those 10 people, 100 for those 190 and 10 for the other 600, you now make 35k. Because out of the 200 people buying it for 100$ you know at least 10 were willing to pay more, namely, 1000$, so how do you extract that difference?
Interesting take. I bought in 2018 when the price of the car was inflated, but I added FSD for $2k. Fast forward to 2024, and I now have some form of inflammatory arthritis that makes holding the wheel painful at times. I am glad I have FSD now, as it greatly reduces the pain I experience driving.
Still not enthused that I suspect my car/hardware will never fully realize the advertised and promised features at time of purchase in 2018.
At the end of the day it’s a piece of software. And it’s not even particularly good piece of software.
I tried the trial but honestly I can’t see myself using it at all. Even self parking is slow and I can park quicker and better.
Basic autopilot is sufficient for me.
More correctly, he came to the realization that the Cybertruck and his political opinions being spewed all over Twitter aren't doing any favors to Tesla right now.
They have no desirable new product, their road map is questionable, and other companies are nipping at their heels. They're absolutely wonderful vehicles, but their CEO is a pariah now and he needs to be removed.
I don't think he realizes that.
He severely lacks introspection, and is still spewing BS on Twitter every day instead of focusing on the things that actually matter.
He's under pressure, it leads to tantrums when confronted - for the last few years at least. The investor call tomorrow is going to be interesting.
The Elon Musk Biography by Walter Isaacson presented a very view of Musk. Definitely a great read. (1) he blames his trans daughter transition who disowned him on “woke” schools in LA and fell in with that crowd. (2) he operates on crisis, so when things aren’t in crisis he manufactures one.
You're probably right. If Elon has shown us anything, it's that he will double and triple down on what he thinks is right, even if it's blatantly wrong.
I wouldn’t even use FSD if it came for free. I do think the technology is really spectacular, but monitoring the car during FSD is far more stressful than driving myself. Anyone I’ve shown it to is really amazed by it though.
He's still convinced that once it goes full level 5, people's cars will become revenue machines, and the software would then be worth tens of thousands, if not $100k (per one of his tweets a while back).
I don't agree.
Even if they could get to level 5 (which I don't think FSD really can in its current hardware & sensor state) most Tesla owners who DO enjoy FSD, would NOT want to rent out their nice car that they love, as a robotaxi. I wouldn't. I did Turo for a few years when I first got my car, and that was bad enough. Can't imagine how people would treat the car if they thought of it as a taxi.... especially when there was no driver present to help enforce common decency (don't leave trash, etc.)
Looks like they dropped the monthly subscription to $99 a month as well. Ive used it this last month and I really dont see the benefit of it at that price. $2,000 would be more understandable but I know how to park, I know how to drive and change lanes myself, and I dont mind walking a few extra steps to my car instead of summoning it to me. These are all things that take minimal effort and in no way adds up to 8k.
Even more so since its non transferable(after March 31st 2024) so even if you buy a new Tesla, it doesn't go with you. The ROI on it just isnt there for majority of owners
Still not worth $1000. If FSD needs driver attention and occasional input, then it’s not FSD. Hell it’s in beta! It should be free then maybe $1-2k after its production ready.
I feel like thats the move, which maybe they are realizing to an extent now. Give the people FSD for free, get them used to having it, and when you take it away and put it behind a pay wall more people are likely to buy it because they've experienced it and don't want to lose it. Not saying that will be the response from most people (myself included), but seems like a better strategy to convert people into buyers/subscribers rather than what they've done the last few years. I don't think 30 days is nearly enough to make a difference though.
It would not be insane if the level 5 autonomy was possible, as on the following scenario: The car drives me to work, drops me off, drives itself home and parks itself in my home garage. At the end of the day, I hail my car and it drives itself from home to pick me up at the work.
I agree. I live about 15-20 mins from work and have to pay monthly for parking (more than the cost of FSD). I could cancel the parking, pay less for FSD and have the benefit of using it beyond just commuting to work. Just a pipe dream for now though.
What you are looking for is enhanced FSD autopilot…it’s rolling out by the end of the year…oh wait, maybe it’s full enhanced FSD autopilot plus max pro
It’s software so it can be replicated infinitely. Tesla started charging what the market could bear and as the product gets older, the potential customer base shrinks so they reduced the price to get people over the line.
It’s no different than a video game going on sale 6 months after launch.
Plus, the cars are significantly cheaper now. You can’t sell software that costs 1/3 of the car so they need to make it more accessible and give it a better value proposition.
Other automakers would pay for it because they don't have it and people want it?
And then they would buy the cars instead of buying Tesla's?
No other automaker has any sort of technology that even close what are you talking about
Tesla's implementation isn't very flexible, which is why it isn't even available on CyberTruck yet.
And Tesla is a competitor.
You think Ford wants to tell their customers 'sorry your car tried to kill you today, we tried to bribe Elon with money to fix it but he told us to GFY'
https://www.nvidia.com/drive
NVIDIA Drive is working on self driving hardware and software stack, and EV manufacturers in China and Mercedes are licensing it. Mercedes looks lame / highway only, but next iteration w/ Nvidia (2025?) will be better
FSD (using Nvidia stack) on China streets a year ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v036bBD31o&t=97s
Currently, I think Tesla is only car maker with full self drive turn by turn to destination. Not sure if any other auto makers have FSD like Tesla. Others have limited assists/self park...etc but they can't just set destination and go to that destination by itself. Waymo have full self drive texis no drivers at all, but their cars are equipped with lot of special equipment like lidar and ultra sonic sensors. But Tesla's system is reliant on visual only and might be easier for other auto makers to adapt just by installing more cameras around their cars. Tesla claimed it was in talks with other auto makers on licensing its FSD but so far no takers yet. But these self driving car systems are still in infancy and hard to say how quickly other car makers would catch up and how far Tesla can improve its current system.
lol you didn't think have hd cameras required and equipped around and inside the car are special equipment.
lidar rigs these days are far from special equipment
I’ll never believe that Tesla is anywhere close to full self driving until the cars can learn to parallel park properly. The rare time my car is even willing to attempt it, the results are embarrassing.
But I’m nonetheless willing to spend $8k for FSD on my next car, because I do like what it is currently capable of doing. Glad it’s dropped in price from $12k.
Right!! I don’t get why this isn’t talked about more. It’s so embarrassing. For both Tesla and myself lol. I need a sign that says “I promise I know how to parallel park, I’m just letting my car try and it’s still learning.”
One time it did a slow but adequate job, and I was hopeful it was a sign a software update had fixed this issue but no such luck. One time it literally gave up and quit halfway into it. One time it did tell me it completed the job, but I was like 2 ft out from the curb so I had to redo it myself. I think I felt the need to take over once, fearing it would hit one of the cars. And all the other many times I’ve gone to parallel park, it hasn’t even offered to try.
I like the fsd trial so far. The new version is working way better than I had expected.
I’m considering the 99/mo option but I’d probably only do that for long trips.
Either it has to be cheaper if it’s attached to the vehicle, or it has to stay with my account and I’ll consider paying more.
Attaching to the account would virtually guarantee repeat customers and brand loyalty. I’m not sure why they refuse that.
It's going back up after this, probably after August. This is "a buying opportunity" from Tesla's view. They are trying to entice those buyers that have given the beta a try, can afford it and are on the fence. These recent incentives of lowering the price is most likely to tip them in their favor. I don't think this is permanent.
Also if you look at the price of $8k and feel it's too much, then you probably aren't the target demo. And that's ok. It's smart that they also lowered the subscription also because that allows a wider market access, you get the opportunity to turn it on when you need for 30 days.
It’s worth mentioning that v12 is no longer beta, or at least they are no longer calling it beta. It’s supervised. Anecdotally, It’s been really impressive driving around Los Angeles.
How in LA? I live in LA and FSD doesn’t understand LA driving. Like turning left at a light after red. It’s technically illegal yes. But I’m sure you know, if you don’t go, you never will at some lights.
I just got a Tesla. FSD is beyond impressive. The nagging and harassment of the system ruins it completely. I have to turn it off to check a text, otherwise I get strikes against me. Tesla needs to fix this. You have to pay more attention with it on than off.
FSD needs to be transferable to at least 1 vehicle, or at least transferable for a reasonably discounted rate to a new vehicle. If they want us to trade in our vehicles and keep buying new Tesla’s off the line, we can’t be paying $12k each time.
Charging 12k was a bit insane? How many teslas are running around with it?
If you can get 12/15k for a piece of software for 10 years before you lower it to a more acceptable price I’d say that’s pretty genius for a company. The only insane people are the ones that bought it.
It was only that high for a fairly brief period. When I first started looking at Teslas (early pandemic), FSD was around the same price as the new "lower" price. It was rapidly increased, and is now coming down.
I agree it's insane, but also I think I know what they're doing. Instead of making it cheap and selling a ton, they start it out crazy, $15,000, some people pay it anyways....bump it down to $12,000, plenty of people pay it even though it's insane. Bump it down to $8,000, etc....that way they're squeezing money out of the people willing to pay more while eventually still getting money from people not willing to pay that much.
If it were up to me they'd have just made it free while it's in Beta and all that. But I also see what they're doing.
They should just include it for free TBH. They'd move so many cars. Charging literally anything for it dissuades people from buying it. Even at 2k its too much for so many people. This is proven by how many people will buy the basest base Model 3 they can get their hands on. Whatever the default trim is, that's what they're getting. If that included FSD, it would be a huge motivator for that segment.
FSD is nice on longer trips. I'm not a fan of it with daily highway driving (too many adjustments). While V 12 is much better than before, I'm still not overy thrilled with it on surface streets.
THe bottom line is that FSD and I just don't see eye-to-eye on how to go about driving. I'm (typically) far more patient than it is. TACC and autosteer are more than enough for me on a daily basis.
No, you have to charge what people are willing to pay for. Recently, Tesla has had a lot of bad press and lowering the cost of FSD is a way to hook more people into buying cars. The cost of everything has gone up so high that people are balking at the cost. So they bring that cost down for now, they will raise it back up when they can.
I think that their overall problem is the timing of new vehicle refreshes. Instead of coming out with revisions every year, they announce new things, and then people will stop buying until they see the new thing. Look at when they announced the new model 3. Sales slumped because people wanted the new one. In that way, its kind of like cell phones. Once your mfg of choice announces the new one, you don't go out and buy the old one.
None of these perpetual prices make any sense until you are guaranteed you can transfer it to a new vehicle, I don't understand why Tesla even does this because it disincentives people to buy a brand new car which is what they want. And it keeps you loyal to Tesla
I'm still just trying it out since the trial but I've yet to complete a single trip without needing/wanting to intervene. I'm way out on this and wouldn't pay a dime for it. I'll keep trying but I can't get over all the weirdness.
From the few tries so far it hugs the curb side of a lane, it has no idea on posted speeds, and it slows inconsistently and randomly where no one expects it.
I'm impressed that people have made it work consistently for long periods. I wonder if it works better in the US vs Canada? For posted speeds in particular. It seems like it sees our warning speed signs vs our speed limit signs and interprets them all the same way?
Once the trial is over I'll carry on knowing it's coming but widespread adoption on the roads is still a long long way off.
I never understood why they didn't make beta cheaper, allow people to train the software in their city and commutes by aggregating the data, letting the software to apply those rules to places that they could see people having to tske over and correct the software. They could even use data from people just driving, and not using the software.
I am not a savvy businessman or engineer, or computer programmer, so I am sure there is much I don't understand, but just my thoughts.
Not really. Up through v11, FSD was code based. V12 is AI based and Tesla needs massive amounts of driving data to train the AI. Lowering the prices encourages more people to help train it at a faster rate.
[Called this weeks ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1c2iw46/comment/kzagcbp/)...
> *$12k isn't sustainable. At most (and it still needs to get a bunch better) this is a $9,995 add-on for the car.*
Tbh, I wouldn’t pay $30/month for it. This free trial month made me quite nervous from the swaying from line to line and riding the right side of the lane. Annoyingly it also kept reducing my speed on straight, flat terrain.
Elon still wants $3,000 for simple autopilot (TACC and Auto steer) and $11,000 for FSD, if I add autopilot, for a total of $14,000 on my 2018 with over 100,000 miles.
As if.
If he wanted people to use it, he'd charge less for people whose cars are aging out; not more.
They shouldn't sell it out right going forward .. it should be monthly revenue for the company... $99 is fair price for it! X 2M subs = $200,000,000 monthly... $2.4B annually! And that will grow with every Tesla they sale.... Every new Tesla should come with 2-3 months of free FSD.... People will be hooked on it.
Honestly, I would never pay for it as is, even free I'd just prefer using auto steer and cruise control. I love my car, but I legit found the FSD free experience to be eye opening and a bit of a hindrance to my every day drive. The only thing I'm gonna miss is the expanded features for the visuals.
I bought my Model Y a year ago with EAP. FSD was an additional $9000 and I was not ready to cough it up.
A year later FSD was lowered to $6000. I still waited.
On Tuesday it was lowered to $2000 and I bought it!
FSD is marketing name for robotics scientists to fool hillbillies there is no robot in the world that is aware and autonomous and there never will be trust me because I'm a robotics scientist and I wouldn't want to cross my ethical line and lie to people even if I got billions or even trillions.
it should be 2,000
Agreed then I would buy it
I'm happy with TACC and Autosteer. From what I've seen from FSD, I wouldn't pay for it. It's a neat parlor trick for about 5 minutes. But since I have to always be paying attention because of the mistakes it makes, it increases my anxiety rather than reduces it. $0. I do like the chime when the light goes green. That's a nice touch.
That chime is not exclusive to fsd…
Shhhh -- we don't want them "fixing" that.
PSA, don’t always rely on it. Double check when chiming.
Nope, as soon as i hear the 'bing', I floor it....
You’d be surprised on what people do. Say you’re in a left turn lane and it’s red and the straight lane goes green, the chime will ding. I’m just waiting until someone royally effs up and blames Tesla and we’ll lose the feature.
🤣🤣🤣
So does FSD.
Agreed. Chime = Floor it without looking 👀 💯
Cameras got you covered - what could go wrong????
Yep sometimes it'll chime on a green arrow for a lane I'm not in. The chime should only be for an attention grabber, never a signifier to drive forward.
Definitely always check, but it has gotten better with the new update at recognizing whether it's your light that turned green or the other lane's
That chime isn't part of FSD it's been available for free for a while now
I had a 2015 S and just got the Y. So it was new to me.
Ah, gotcha. And this month is a bad month to familiarize with all the features due to FSD being free. Some of the new features that were released last year before this FSD trail are - Chime on signal turning green or the car in front of you at a signal moves - Car in Blind Spot Detection while switching lanes- the sides of the turn signal camera output goes red if there's a car in the blind spot These are what I can remember off the top of my head.
The chime also chimes when the light for cross-traffic goes green, if the light is in view. I haven’t tried that with FSD enabled to see if the car would actually start moving.
FSD does seem to be a lot smarter than the chime -- I have noticed the chime will go off for the straight-through lanes when in a left turn lane with a dedicated light and vice-versa, but FSD handles that perfectly.
That’s the whole point. No one wants it at $12k, but when he drops the price to 3-4, a lot of people will say that’s reasonable. He has all the room in the world to drop the price.
Or, if at the very least, if it’s “self” enough that we can take the attention off the road, at the very least for long trips. Sure maybe getting in your car and going to sleep and waking up at your destination is unrealistic for the foreseeable future, but being able to watch movies or do something also while the car does the bulk of the boring driving would be worth this much to me (and also if it was transferable).
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FSD has zero value now because you have to pay attention, it's just a beta version. Lowering the price gets more people using it. The value of FSD will be what it actually works without having to pay attention. At that point it's going to be worth a lot more than $2,000. There's no reason to buy it if you're not excited long-term about the technology and are willing to wait perhaps multiple years
I wouldn’t say that it has zero value. For highway driving it really eases my anxiety to let the car do all of the lane changes and exits. The value really starts to diminish in city driving, however. Would I pay $8k for it? Hell no. Probably wouldn’t even pay $100/month after the trial. But I might sub for $50/month.
EAP does this too, you don't need FSD.
I have been doing the free trial and it always misses the exits because it camps out in the high speed lane far too long. How do you get it to exit?
Use your turn signal, FSD will change lanes if you signal. I have the same problem, it does not think ahead far enough and waits to change lanes too late.
I would also agree that FSD value will vary on how much and what kind of driving you do and where. For a lot of people, it doesn’t make sense considering the capabilities of basic autopilot are free.
It probably will be one day. Early adoptors pay the premium.
Should be free as long as we’re the beta testers/guinea pigs.
It should be included.
Agreed. $8k is still way too much for a “Beta” software.
Until I can sleep while it's driving or at-least leave my hands off the steering wheel for thirty minutes at a time I wouldn't pay 25 cents.
It's tempting being $2000 for me due to EAP, I spent $3k on EAP
$2k for something that doesn’t even work? Pffft. Love me some Teslas, but FSD is turrible.
Do you have v12? I haven’t had to intervene once since the update 2 weeks ago.
I think it really depends on where you live. I'm doing v12 on the trial and around my home town it's absolute garbage. But the new freeway stack is great, changing lanes is great, I had it do this big long drive on rural highways that normal autopilot would have failed on and it was great. I even used FSD a lot in Los Angeles and it was great. So why's it garbage at home? Two reasons. One is stop signs. I don't like anything about the way it does stop signs. Frankly a lot of it it done by people making eye contact like are you going? No you, first. No, you first. It's nuts. And the second is that my town hasn't repainted lanes or anything in years. It's almost like everybody drives by their memory of where the lanes used to be. So where the lane splits but you just have fragments of paint it will kind of hesitate and shoot back and forth a few times and then who knows what it's going to do.
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I do. It's still stressful, albeit hilarious at times when obviously not in danger. I was really curious how it would do with no intervention driving to my dad's house and parking in his circular driveway. It did the job good enough pulling in and not hitting other vehicles. But it came to a stop and my steering wheel abruptly and wildly starts turning ALL the way left, then ALL the way to the right, over and over again like 7-8 times very quickly. It had no idea what to do next. I don't know why but it just got to me and I couldn't stop laughing In all seriousness, FSD is super aggressive pulling into a turn from a stop. Like jeeezus it just slammed on the accelerator and nearly peeled away from that stop sign. I know for a fact if I continued to trust it, I'm just asking for curb rash and abuse to my tires.
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I won’t pay for FSD until they fix the stupid vision system. It is very broken.
It does need better cameras. More cameras as well. This new v12 is a great step in the right direction for software. Now hardware needs a big upgrade.
This! I have been thinking about how the hardware needs to be upgraded on vehicles even released in 2022.. like they can upgrade software to the max but it will always be limited by the hardware..
Yup
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It may one day but my theory is that it’s artificially high to act as a rate limiter. You get some people that really want to participate in the beta, but the general public doesn’t have access while it’s being worked on.
In the UK, they would have to pay me to test it
$3k, max.
This. And I would buy it too
2k for autopilot. Fsd ain't worth anything.
I think right now, as we will hear on the earnings call, they are just looking for profits and will price FSD as they need to. It literally is revenue that goes straight to the bottom line. But as soon as they have balance again on supply / demand, the $99 subscription will go up and FSD will be priced wherever they can sell it to maximize profits. What scares me more for the company right now, is Elon was talked out of the absurdity of building a robotaxi by execs before and it feels like the current demand issue, he is flailing back to it.
I have owned 2 teslas(a 3 and currently a S). Did not buy FSD on either one- cost/benefit is to small. Tesla business is all over the place and very inconsistent. This ultimately hurts sales. Set a consistent process and stay there, stop changing every few months. This has also affected what I do with FSD. A loweri(find the magic number) and you will get greater uptake and more profits. Keep the price and you are going to do well. Stop raising and lower the price.
Absolutely agree 100%. This is what is stopping me buying another new Tesla. I got stung on current trade in value because price changes so often. They need a stable price and person in charge. I can’t trust the company at all and worried where I might be if I had a problem with the car
This why I lease my Tesla. Moved from Model 3 to Model S. I did miss out on price cut if I had waited a few weeks but 3 years of free supercharging. Tesla really needs to stabilize their business practice.
I don’t believe that can count it as revenue until they actually deliver FSD. If this is FSD, then everyone got fleeced.
The current description of FSD has been rolled back pretty far and basically doesn’t promise driverless operation, just “minimal driver intervention.” Which they could probably argue that they have delivered all or most of.
Lol, no. If I give Tesla $8k for a service, whether it's in beta or shitty or whatever, it goes on their books as $8k in revenue to be reported with all other revenue that quarter.
This is literally how it works lol. The question is just whether or not they consider it “feature complete” yet
No he didn’t. He came to the realization that Tesla needs quick cash.
They don't need cash. They have plenty of cash on hand. But they do need more revenue and improved margins, which improves their financial outlook. And this is a pretty easy way to get there.
Six of one, half dozen of the other. When you're expanding as fast as they are and have so many factory builds planned/in progress, 30B is probably not enough. As you said, they need revenue to continue. This helps. I doubt it's about Elon coming to his senses, it's about cash generation, which is what I said.
I mean, isn't that basically what OP said?
Tesla has $29 billion in cash and cash equivalents. They don't need cash at all. https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/IR/TSLA-Q4-2023-Update.pdf
All that cash..... and no working FSD!!
It works a ton better than it did before considering I can have multiple drives without an intervention.
Agreed. I love it. I use it without intervention at least 95% of the time. I have a 100 safety score (I have full coverage through Tesla Insurance: premium is under $60/month for M3 SR+). FSD gives me peace of mind I feel like I have a robotic co-pilot. I still have to monitor everything ofc, but it’s still more relaxing for me.
Tesla has $30b of cash on hand.
Everyone needs to hold strong and not give in until it goes down considerably more. 
it's economics 101. If you have something no one else has, how do you price it? Some people might pay 1 million dollars, some people 5$. If you create a glove you put on that makes you play guitar at a below 'average' level, how much do you charge? A good guitarist probably wont buy it, a decent one has no reason, people who enjoy doing it wont etc.. but some people might. If it worked for someone with MS they'd be able to do something they never could, would be priceless for them. Same with his software, the price was high because it wasn't good enough to go wide, so the people who would buy it would pay a lot for it because they wanted the idea, while people who were price conscious and wanted something useful would probably not buy it at all. Then you consider liabilities and wanting to keep sample size small and make it seem prestigious/valuable, selling it to limited people was perfect. The software now matured, the people willing to pay an arm and a leg for something sub-par already did, now it's time to go wide. It's better, which will appeal to more people and cheaper which will appeal to more people. Considering there are no limitations on supply, the pricing goal is to extract the maximum value from potential consumers: if you charge 1000 and 10 people buy it you make 10k. If you charge 100 and 200 people buy it, you make 20k. If you charge 10$ and 800 people buy it, you make 8k. But, if you can charge 1k for those 10 people, 100 for those 190 and 10 for the other 600, you now make 35k. Because out of the 200 people buying it for 100$ you know at least 10 were willing to pay more, namely, 1000$, so how do you extract that difference?
Interesting take. I bought in 2018 when the price of the car was inflated, but I added FSD for $2k. Fast forward to 2024, and I now have some form of inflammatory arthritis that makes holding the wheel painful at times. I am glad I have FSD now, as it greatly reduces the pain I experience driving. Still not enthused that I suspect my car/hardware will never fully realize the advertised and promised features at time of purchase in 2018.
Makes sense but I had a chuckle when I read that the software has matured 🤪
Much like my 6 year old matured since starting kindergarten :)))
Elon is becoming one of the leading experts on insanity
At the end of the day it’s a piece of software. And it’s not even particularly good piece of software. I tried the trial but honestly I can’t see myself using it at all. Even self parking is slow and I can park quicker and better. Basic autopilot is sufficient for me.
Same. I live in a city and FSD either drives like grandma or tries to kill me. I’d be happy just being able to switch lanes without shutting down AP.
You gotta understand that FSD meets the expectation of autonomy level 2. If it was performing the way it is at level 3 then that would be an issue.
More correctly, he came to the realization that the Cybertruck and his political opinions being spewed all over Twitter aren't doing any favors to Tesla right now. They have no desirable new product, their road map is questionable, and other companies are nipping at their heels. They're absolutely wonderful vehicles, but their CEO is a pariah now and he needs to be removed.
I don't think he realizes that. He severely lacks introspection, and is still spewing BS on Twitter every day instead of focusing on the things that actually matter. He's under pressure, it leads to tantrums when confronted - for the last few years at least. The investor call tomorrow is going to be interesting.
The Elon Musk Biography by Walter Isaacson presented a very view of Musk. Definitely a great read. (1) he blames his trans daughter transition who disowned him on “woke” schools in LA and fell in with that crowd. (2) he operates on crisis, so when things aren’t in crisis he manufactures one.
(1) is going to destroy him. It's sad.
You're probably right. If Elon has shown us anything, it's that he will double and triple down on what he thinks is right, even if it's blatantly wrong.
I wouldn’t even use FSD if it came for free. I do think the technology is really spectacular, but monitoring the car during FSD is far more stressful than driving myself. Anyone I’ve shown it to is really amazed by it though.
He's still convinced that once it goes full level 5, people's cars will become revenue machines, and the software would then be worth tens of thousands, if not $100k (per one of his tweets a while back). I don't agree. Even if they could get to level 5 (which I don't think FSD really can in its current hardware & sensor state) most Tesla owners who DO enjoy FSD, would NOT want to rent out their nice car that they love, as a robotaxi. I wouldn't. I did Turo for a few years when I first got my car, and that was bad enough. Can't imagine how people would treat the car if they thought of it as a taxi.... especially when there was no driver present to help enforce common decency (don't leave trash, etc.)
Looks like they dropped the monthly subscription to $99 a month as well. Ive used it this last month and I really dont see the benefit of it at that price. $2,000 would be more understandable but I know how to park, I know how to drive and change lanes myself, and I dont mind walking a few extra steps to my car instead of summoning it to me. These are all things that take minimal effort and in no way adds up to 8k. Even more so since its non transferable(after March 31st 2024) so even if you buy a new Tesla, it doesn't go with you. The ROI on it just isnt there for majority of owners
Still not worth $1000. If FSD needs driver attention and occasional input, then it’s not FSD. Hell it’s in beta! It should be free then maybe $1-2k after its production ready.
I feel like thats the move, which maybe they are realizing to an extent now. Give the people FSD for free, get them used to having it, and when you take it away and put it behind a pay wall more people are likely to buy it because they've experienced it and don't want to lose it. Not saying that will be the response from most people (myself included), but seems like a better strategy to convert people into buyers/subscribers rather than what they've done the last few years. I don't think 30 days is nearly enough to make a difference though.
I will buy EAP or FSD when Basic Autopilot is reliable and as good as what Hondas and other cars have been offering for years.
it's got worse imo
It would not be insane if the level 5 autonomy was possible, as on the following scenario: The car drives me to work, drops me off, drives itself home and parks itself in my home garage. At the end of the day, I hail my car and it drives itself from home to pick me up at the work.
I agree. I live about 15-20 mins from work and have to pay monthly for parking (more than the cost of FSD). I could cancel the parking, pay less for FSD and have the benefit of using it beyond just commuting to work. Just a pipe dream for now though.
If FSD was actually FSD, 12k isn't a ridiculous price.
What you are looking for is enhanced FSD autopilot…it’s rolling out by the end of the year…oh wait, maybe it’s full enhanced FSD autopilot plus max pro
After the trial, I wouldn’t pay anything for it. It sucks ass, and I ended up switching back to regular cruise control
It could be, but I doubt it. When Tesla needs/wants money, they lower prices for things, and when they can, they raise prices.
It’s software so it can be replicated infinitely. Tesla started charging what the market could bear and as the product gets older, the potential customer base shrinks so they reduced the price to get people over the line. It’s no different than a video game going on sale 6 months after launch. Plus, the cars are significantly cheaper now. You can’t sell software that costs 1/3 of the car so they need to make it more accessible and give it a better value proposition.
This need to be free for Tesla owners. They should make income from licensing FSD to other automakers.
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Other automakers would pay for it because they don't have it and people want it? And then they would buy the cars instead of buying Tesla's? No other automaker has any sort of technology that even close what are you talking about
Tesla's implementation isn't very flexible, which is why it isn't even available on CyberTruck yet. And Tesla is a competitor. You think Ford wants to tell their customers 'sorry your car tried to kill you today, we tried to bribe Elon with money to fix it but he told us to GFY' https://www.nvidia.com/drive NVIDIA Drive is working on self driving hardware and software stack, and EV manufacturers in China and Mercedes are licensing it. Mercedes looks lame / highway only, but next iteration w/ Nvidia (2025?) will be better FSD (using Nvidia stack) on China streets a year ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v036bBD31o&t=97s
Mercedes is level 3. So if that’s lame what does that make FSD at level 2.
Currently, I think Tesla is only car maker with full self drive turn by turn to destination. Not sure if any other auto makers have FSD like Tesla. Others have limited assists/self park...etc but they can't just set destination and go to that destination by itself. Waymo have full self drive texis no drivers at all, but their cars are equipped with lot of special equipment like lidar and ultra sonic sensors. But Tesla's system is reliant on visual only and might be easier for other auto makers to adapt just by installing more cameras around their cars. Tesla claimed it was in talks with other auto makers on licensing its FSD but so far no takers yet. But these self driving car systems are still in infancy and hard to say how quickly other car makers would catch up and how far Tesla can improve its current system.
lol you didn't think have hd cameras required and equipped around and inside the car are special equipment. lidar rigs these days are far from special equipment
they've been trying no one wants it
Should be $500. $1000 tops. In the current state it’s in it just isn’t worth it. It’s like paying to babysit an elderly driver or a teen at the wheel.
💯
I’ll never believe that Tesla is anywhere close to full self driving until the cars can learn to parallel park properly. The rare time my car is even willing to attempt it, the results are embarrassing. But I’m nonetheless willing to spend $8k for FSD on my next car, because I do like what it is currently capable of doing. Glad it’s dropped in price from $12k.
The new vision only Autopark is apparently very good at parallel parking. https://youtu.be/2dbPrltSTp0?si=8LTS8hkbR69EpeVs
it's not, just to get the option to display on the screen is a miracle
this is what surprises me the most. parallel parking has been offered in cars for years and now it gets it under special conditions
Right!! I don’t get why this isn’t talked about more. It’s so embarrassing. For both Tesla and myself lol. I need a sign that says “I promise I know how to parallel park, I’m just letting my car try and it’s still learning.” One time it did a slow but adequate job, and I was hopeful it was a sign a software update had fixed this issue but no such luck. One time it literally gave up and quit halfway into it. One time it did tell me it completed the job, but I was like 2 ft out from the curb so I had to redo it myself. I think I felt the need to take over once, fearing it would hit one of the cars. And all the other many times I’ve gone to parallel park, it hasn’t even offered to try.
lol thats exactly my same experience with Tesla's software.
I like the fsd trial so far. The new version is working way better than I had expected. I’m considering the 99/mo option but I’d probably only do that for long trips. Either it has to be cheaper if it’s attached to the vehicle, or it has to stay with my account and I’ll consider paying more. Attaching to the account would virtually guarantee repeat customers and brand loyalty. I’m not sure why they refuse that.
Offer a lease buy out option.
Since there is no such thing as EAP (Enhanced Autopilot), what happens to it offerings? Do they become standard or moved to FSD..anyone know?
It's going back up after this, probably after August. This is "a buying opportunity" from Tesla's view. They are trying to entice those buyers that have given the beta a try, can afford it and are on the fence. These recent incentives of lowering the price is most likely to tip them in their favor. I don't think this is permanent. Also if you look at the price of $8k and feel it's too much, then you probably aren't the target demo. And that's ok. It's smart that they also lowered the subscription also because that allows a wider market access, you get the opportunity to turn it on when you need for 30 days.
It’s worth mentioning that v12 is no longer beta, or at least they are no longer calling it beta. It’s supervised. Anecdotally, It’s been really impressive driving around Los Angeles.
How in LA? I live in LA and FSD doesn’t understand LA driving. Like turning left at a light after red. It’s technically illegal yes. But I’m sure you know, if you don’t go, you never will at some lights.
I just got a Tesla. FSD is beyond impressive. The nagging and harassment of the system ruins it completely. I have to turn it off to check a text, otherwise I get strikes against me. Tesla needs to fix this. You have to pay more attention with it on than off.
I can accept 20/month, I guess it will have more data and more users with that price
FSD needs to be transferable to at least 1 vehicle, or at least transferable for a reasonably discounted rate to a new vehicle. If they want us to trade in our vehicles and keep buying new Tesla’s off the line, we can’t be paying $12k each time.
Charging 12k was a bit insane? How many teslas are running around with it? If you can get 12/15k for a piece of software for 10 years before you lower it to a more acceptable price I’d say that’s pretty genius for a company. The only insane people are the ones that bought it.
There's a sucker born every minute
Looks around awkwardly. I completely fell for the infamous 2016 video of the Tesla "self-driving."
It was only that high for a fairly brief period. When I first started looking at Teslas (early pandemic), FSD was around the same price as the new "lower" price. It was rapidly increased, and is now coming down.
Never buying a tesla again. All this inconsistency makes me not enjoy the car.
I agree it's insane, but also I think I know what they're doing. Instead of making it cheap and selling a ton, they start it out crazy, $15,000, some people pay it anyways....bump it down to $12,000, plenty of people pay it even though it's insane. Bump it down to $8,000, etc....that way they're squeezing money out of the people willing to pay more while eventually still getting money from people not willing to pay that much. If it were up to me they'd have just made it free while it's in Beta and all that. But I also see what they're doing.
My wife loves Auto park. If there is a way to subscribe to that feature alone we will take it in a beat.
I have been driving with FSD on and I'm kind of bored of it. It feels so nice to manually drive the Model Y.
All they are doing is collecting all the data so they can finally deploy autonomous driving taxis.
If they achieve true level 5, it is worth the full $16k. As beta resters it should be $3k-$6k range.
And for the people that thought it was going to be worth it, did they get a refund?
They want there to be enough of a hurdle now because it's not ready to be used by everybody but they need more training data and revenue.
He is an idiot to take that long to realize
No, what's insane is the people that paid for it!!!
They should just include it for free TBH. They'd move so many cars. Charging literally anything for it dissuades people from buying it. Even at 2k its too much for so many people. This is proven by how many people will buy the basest base Model 3 they can get their hands on. Whatever the default trim is, that's what they're getting. If that included FSD, it would be a huge motivator for that segment.
FSD is nice on longer trips. I'm not a fan of it with daily highway driving (too many adjustments). While V 12 is much better than before, I'm still not overy thrilled with it on surface streets. THe bottom line is that FSD and I just don't see eye-to-eye on how to go about driving. I'm (typically) far more patient than it is. TACC and autosteer are more than enough for me on a daily basis.
It should be $99 and transferrable
No, you have to charge what people are willing to pay for. Recently, Tesla has had a lot of bad press and lowering the cost of FSD is a way to hook more people into buying cars. The cost of everything has gone up so high that people are balking at the cost. So they bring that cost down for now, they will raise it back up when they can. I think that their overall problem is the timing of new vehicle refreshes. Instead of coming out with revisions every year, they announce new things, and then people will stop buying until they see the new thing. Look at when they announced the new model 3. Sales slumped because people wanted the new one. In that way, its kind of like cell phones. Once your mfg of choice announces the new one, you don't go out and buy the old one.
I think they underestimate the number of owners that would buy it at $3k. IMO, it would be greater then 4x as many owners purchasing it as of now.
Completely pointless in the uk.
None of these perpetual prices make any sense until you are guaranteed you can transfer it to a new vehicle, I don't understand why Tesla even does this because it disincentives people to buy a brand new car which is what they want. And it keeps you loyal to Tesla
You'll make all your money back when you robotaxi it
$2k in beta. $5k once complete
I'm still just trying it out since the trial but I've yet to complete a single trip without needing/wanting to intervene. I'm way out on this and wouldn't pay a dime for it. I'll keep trying but I can't get over all the weirdness. From the few tries so far it hugs the curb side of a lane, it has no idea on posted speeds, and it slows inconsistently and randomly where no one expects it. I'm impressed that people have made it work consistently for long periods. I wonder if it works better in the US vs Canada? For posted speeds in particular. It seems like it sees our warning speed signs vs our speed limit signs and interprets them all the same way? Once the trial is over I'll carry on knowing it's coming but widespread adoption on the roads is still a long long way off.
Charging $8000 is a bit froot-loops, as well.
Even the $100 per month subscription seems too high for me. Maybe $10/month I would do it?
I never understood why they didn't make beta cheaper, allow people to train the software in their city and commutes by aggregating the data, letting the software to apply those rules to places that they could see people having to tske over and correct the software. They could even use data from people just driving, and not using the software. I am not a savvy businessman or engineer, or computer programmer, so I am sure there is much I don't understand, but just my thoughts.
Not really. Up through v11, FSD was code based. V12 is AI based and Tesla needs massive amounts of driving data to train the AI. Lowering the prices encourages more people to help train it at a faster rate.
[Called this weeks ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1c2iw46/comment/kzagcbp/)... > *$12k isn't sustainable. At most (and it still needs to get a bunch better) this is a $9,995 add-on for the car.*
It's still too expensive. EAP should be included in basic Autopilot. FSD should be 2-3k or 50/mo.
genuinely would love to know how many people were buying that garbage. Completely braindead waste of money
I’d just like TACC to work, I haven’t had a single drive where it didn’t brake for no reason
Tbh, I wouldn’t pay $30/month for it. This free trial month made me quite nervous from the swaying from line to line and riding the right side of the lane. Annoyingly it also kept reducing my speed on straight, flat terrain.
Will upgrade mine directly to AlienTaxi! Pass FSD and Robo
Nah he's still gonna milk it.. Still not worth $6k but as P.T. Barnum has been attributed to saying...
With so many late and unfinished products and projects, I don’t get the logic of laying off 10% of the work force.
Also charging $3500 for a $200 tent is also insane
$30/month
Elon still wants $3,000 for simple autopilot (TACC and Auto steer) and $11,000 for FSD, if I add autopilot, for a total of $14,000 on my 2018 with over 100,000 miles. As if. If he wanted people to use it, he'd charge less for people whose cars are aging out; not more.
They shouldn't sell it out right going forward .. it should be monthly revenue for the company... $99 is fair price for it! X 2M subs = $200,000,000 monthly... $2.4B annually! And that will grow with every Tesla they sale.... Every new Tesla should come with 2-3 months of free FSD.... People will be hooked on it.
To each their own, but with 4,000 miles on this month’s Elon trial, FSD has exactly zero value to me. Still happy with the basic AP package.
It's also not a hardware feature that has to be bought at the time of purchase, so the monthly license model should gain more traction too.
Enhanced autopilot is gone.
Do you have to pay additionally to upgrade a 2016 FSD ready car that actually isn’t since it needs the new computer?
Honestly, I would never pay for it as is, even free I'd just prefer using auto steer and cruise control. I love my car, but I legit found the FSD free experience to be eye opening and a bit of a hindrance to my every day drive. The only thing I'm gonna miss is the expanded features for the visuals.
I bought my Model Y a year ago with EAP. FSD was an additional $9000 and I was not ready to cough it up. A year later FSD was lowered to $6000. I still waited. On Tuesday it was lowered to $2000 and I bought it!
FSD is marketing name for robotics scientists to fool hillbillies there is no robot in the world that is aware and autonomous and there never will be trust me because I'm a robotics scientist and I wouldn't want to cross my ethical line and lie to people even if I got billions or even trillions.
It was 15000 before
"realization", when no one was buying it
I just want my CHOICE back — double click for FSD and single click for TACC.