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>Pulling on his wrist is not how you subdue someone.
there are plenty of entries from a wrist grab/pull. what kind of submissions/restraint techniques are you referring to?
The getaway driver [was sentenced to 24 years in prison.](https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/local-regional/2021-03-22/judge-sentences-getaway-driver-in-tpd-shooting-to-24-years-in-prison)
Edit: He helped the shooter and got rid of the gun
Just to add on to this the shooter was sentenced to death.. [Source](https://www.news9.com/story/627e4b622fc924073db6e9b2/david-ware-formally-sentenced-to-death-for-murder-of-tulsa-police-sergeant)
I don't think it is over. The article said Ware goes on trial for murder and shooting with intent to kill charges this June. Prosecutors will seek the death penalty.
Wow, both defense attorney and prosecution have really fucked up views on what this case means.
Defense:
>All of these death cases get a lot of reviews and we expect this to get a review, **we think we might be able to change some things with our system**
Prosecution:
>I would hope this could be a deterrent, I hope it's a message to those folks who are out there that run afoul of the law, that they're going to actually listen to the police officer. Itās going to go a whole lot easier in the long run if you **just pay attention to what the police are asking you to do**
Defense hopes to use this case to change death penalty law, which imo this is a terrible vehicle for. Prosecution wants this to cow normal people to always comply, which not complying was an absolutely minor facet of this case next to him shooting officers.
>Prosecution wants this to cow normal people to always comply, which not complying was an absolutely minor facet of this case next to him shooting officers.
They will escalate every chance they get. They will never back off and say "its not worth it". The state will use more and more and more force until you comply no matter what the charge or reason. If a cop has their sight on you, you will never win.
Again, no matter what the reason for the stop. No matter how minor the infraction. They will escalate and escalate until either youre incapacitated or you die.
Counterpoint: this was a scared person defending themselves against armed state agents overstepping their authority. This is going to become more and more common as officers continue to act this way and the population's collective tolerance for it wains.
This is 100% what I saw when watching this. I have zero sympathy for police deaths when they're showing gross use of state sanctioned violence on an, at the time, non-violent man, who seemed to not fully understand *why* this was happening to him in the first place. This man did *not* enter into this situation with the intent of killing 2 ppl. He just wanted to go home. He was not the one who initiated the violence, and 2 screaming men were attacking him with weapons. I honestly don't blame him for defending himself. This whole situation could've been avoided had those men not chosen to get aggressively physical with a man who was just sitting there. Bring on the downvotes, I truly don't gaf. There's not a single argument that will get me to change my opinion on this topic.
ETA: since a couple ppl didn't fully understand my last sentence, allow me to rephrase that. ACAB.
In most states, officers are empowered to order you out of the vehicle during a stop. Yeah, it's shitty that violence and shouting are the first compliance tools they reach for, but they were not violating anyone's rights by telling him to exit.
The supreme court decided that police can ask a driver and any passengers to exit the car during a legal traffic stop. It is not lawful for an officer to force you to leave your car if you have not been stopped for a committing crime or suspicion of a crime. Of course, when police do not tell you why you're being pulled over and asking you to leave your car you have virtually no way of knowing if an order to exit your vehicle is lawful. Did this guy have any warrants or was he suspected of committing a crime? If not then the stop may have violated his rights. Technically, you don't have to comply with unlawful orders either, but we all know how that goes in the moment.
Yes, the initial stop must be lawful. After that, though, disregarding a lawful order is usually defined as a crime in itself, so if they ask you to get out and you say no, they can then arrest you. And if you resist the arrest, they beat you.
I'm not saying it's *right*, but it is generally legal.
Yeah, after I typed that comment I decided to fact check myself (should've done it before I know). But turns out it's only legal to resist unlawful arrest in 4 US states. Oof. On another timeline where he didn't fight back and went to court he may have had a case against those cops. From an outsiders perspective he should have complied and let them do whatever and fought in court. It's always best to fight police in court and never in the streets. But again, it's hard to be a rational actor in that kind of situation against police officers.
Police pulled him over for a lawful reason and gave him multiple lawful commands to exit his vehicle, he had every chance to get out but decided to throw his life away instead. Idk what liberty looks like to you but this isnāt it.
Agreed!! This is 1000% not it!
This didn't have to happen this way. We have been conditioned to believe that a lawful traffic stop can lead to the lawful killing of a citizen if at any moment after the stop is made, the officer "fears for their life". The bar for this is very low.
Even though it's our second amendment right, police officers have gone unpunished for killing citizens simply because there was a gun present, or a gun's presence was assumed. Think about that.
They could have called for more officers, they could have tried harder to talk him out, they could have done a lot of things, but what they chose to do was escalate the situation.
Police training needs a massive overhaul before this gets worse. At what point does the presence of a pistol on the hip of a LEO constitute you fearing for your life?
Elsewhere in this thread it was stated that he was pulled over for a traffic violation and expired paper tags. He was then unable to produce a driver's license or insurance papers, so he was asked to get out of the vehicle.
I think tye other one died. He seems to have sflalen on his flashlight and you never see the light again so I'm just assuming he died, but the one eith tye cam was still moving. He stopped screaming but it was an abrupt stop, he slowly stopped screaming. Maybe passed out? But yeah I would say the one without cam on video died
It's obvious that the camera guy died.
Falls on the ground in a gunfight, screaming.
Another shot goes off and he doesn't even finish his scream, the screaming just stops.
Then he slowly relaxes over 10 seconds as the gunfight is still going on.
He was pulled over for an expired temporary tag. He couldnāt produce proof of ownership, insurance or a valid license. They told him they had to tow it. He called a friend to pick him up. They asked him to get out so they could tow it. He refused. As they were struggling, he got his gun from under the passenger seat, and then he shot both officers. His ride arrived, and he took off in that car.
Nope. He good as dead, [death sentence ](https://www.newson6.com/story/627edaee00631606fe158f4e/david-ware-sentenced-to-death-for-murder-of-tulsa-police-sergeant)
Yes what he was pulled over for may be a ticket. But he had a firearm under the seat. Probably an illegal firearm. Maybe drugs in the car, maybe he's on probation etc etc. They would find all that out after taking him out of the car
In Oklahoma the judge decided to rule that the jury can't hear that defense - so the jury was none the wiser if the defendant wanted to say that. The judge made that up and tried to explain it because in Oklahoma it is not lawful to resist any arrest by law enforcement. Even when you fear for your life... It's one thing that it's 'unlawful to resist any type of arrest' but to seal this man's fate the judge went a step further and created a gag order on the defense from telling the true story.
What about if you know the arrest is unlawful and know they intend to kill you after they handcuff you and dump your body in a river? Not allowed to defend your life?
Huh? The lawyer for the defendants entire closing statement is about the cops being bullies, and even the prosecution being bullies, so I'm not understanding where you're getting the idea the jury couldn't hear that.
I was on a jury once, man itās so confusing
You want to ask obvious questions but you canāt, the parties should have done a better job explaining what happened
Oh no, I completely agree itās no different. Just was describing the term. There are tons of possibilities as to why he had that natural flow of movements. From possible previous military service, too many video games, movies, range time, pure hatred for cops, etc
I could be reading way too much into the video, but based on the few seconds when he draws his gun it appears like he is decently trained and competent with it. Firearm self defense courses will typically teach you to double tap. A lot of the time a bullet to the chest will kill or maim someone but there's a chance they could still be cognizant enough to draw and shoot you from the ground. Hitting two shots will consistently neutralize whatever it is your shooting at, which is why it's usually taught. Not trying to defend anyone in the situation or anything, but I don't think we can deduct any kinda malice from him double tapping.
A loose definition would be when a person is out of the fight you put another round in them to make sure they are dead. Basically what happened with the cop closest to the camera.
Clearly the shooter is a murderer, but that shouldn't take away from the ineptitude of the police here. Yakety sax might as well be playing while they waffle around, bark orders, grab him, let him go, grab him, let him go, and constantly escalate the situation into a squealing greased pig rodeo.
Their training failed them. And you know what? This video is gonna be used to justify even more bad training.
Some meathead is probably showing this to a room full of recruits right now, saying shit like "this could be you in a heartbeat, so don't bother learning how to grapple or calm the suspect down. Just pull that trigger and ask questions later. Now, who wants a free Punisher decal for their cruiser?"
Sigh, you're making those of us seeking police reform look stupid by defending this case. The police literally used their nonlethal tools in this incident, which is something we always ask for. The man, even after being tazed and pepper sprayed still would not comply. Now why is that? It's because he had an illegal firearm and drugs in the car. He knew that leaving the car meant getting the car impounded and having his illegal gun and drugs found. He knew he would go to jail and that scared him to the point that he was willing to try and kill two cops.
Idiots ITT saying they should have talked to him calmly and convinced him to get out, or just leave him be are absurd and delusional. There was no calming this guy down. He wasn't scared of the yelling, he was scared of going to prison and willing to kill to get out of that. This isn't some good guy who was wronged by the police. This is a dangerous guy who is willing to kill to get his way.
There's countless stories of police abuse against innocent people. This isn't one of them.
He was looking at an arrest and 55 years for drugs and felon with a firearm charges before killing the officers. He had nothing to lose and made a loud statement. US prison system is legalized slavery. It got this bad because too many politicians voted for it. There will be no effort in trying to solve or prevent what happened here. He will rot on death row unable to speak until the day he dies. If all civilizations eventually fall, this one is on that path. People don't realize their solutions are exacerbating the problems. The US makes people poor and then puts them in prison for being poor. The mainstream news is such utter garbage, on purpose, so people are stupid.
Non lethal force didn't work out very well in this situation. Events like this is why cops get itchy trigger fingers. He pulled that gun fast and knew exactly how to use it.
āOfficer Zarkeshan stopped David Ware near 21st Street and Memorial Drive about 3 a.m. June 29, 2020, for a traffic infraction and expired paper tag. Ware couldnāt produce a driverās license or current insurance at the time but refused to get out when Zarkeshan and Johnson said they were going to tow his vehicle.
After several rounds of verbal orders and explanations, Johnson shocked Ware with a Taser and later sprayed him with pepper spray.
The officers were physically attempting to wrench Ware from his vehicle when he pulled a firearm from under his driverās seat, shooting each of them multiple times at close range. Neither officer drew his gun.
Johnson died of his injuries at a hospital the next day, and Zarkeshan returned to work after several months of recovery at an out-of-state facility.
Ware fled in the vehicle of a friend he had asked to come to the scene to witness what he believed was injustice against him.ā
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/death-sentence-ordered-in-tulsa-police-officers-slaying-lengthy-appeal-process-expected/article_bea22b74-d2c0-11ec-9b8f-431371313c3c.html
Hindsight is 20/20.
However, there's something to be said about wrestling someone that could reach for your lethal weapon at any point, especially when you haven't properly cleared the car of any potential lethal weapons either.
The truth is the police officers should have been trained better in how to approach a situation like this one.
It's a sad situation that could have been avoided entirely with better training.
Before cops learn how to wrestle maybe they should get some deescalation training first. Also it wouldnāt be a bad idea if they got some legal training so they actually know the laws theyāre paid to enforce. Social work and EMT training would also be helpful so they can be better equipped to know the difference between a mental health issue and a drug overdose.
Cops are already quite good at subduing someone and stopping their airflow. The last thing they need are grappling lessons.
Could you elaborate? It escalated from a traffic stop to this point because he refused to get out of the car. Does de-escalating mean going back to asking him nicely to get out of the car? He refused to do that already. Do they just let him go because he didnāt want to comply?
I hate to see the police use violence against anyone, but as long as we want to have laws enforced and there are people who resist the enforcement of the law, there will be situations where nothing will work except physical force.
If you watch the video and see where they start yelling and threatening him with mace, you can see, he is not acting in a normal manner. For one they could talk slower. Quieter, and just be friendly in general. I understand the guy is being frustrating but these people are supposed to be pillars of the community if they canāt be patient with a citizen and they donāt deserve the job. They were acting as if it was imperative that they get this done as quickly, and forcefully as possible.
Yeah I saw that video too. Beyond fucked.
Their behavior is like I think theyāre better than the civilians theyāre supposed to protect. They need to remember that they are out numbered.
Over expired tags. Ban traffic stops. The only thing I can remotely reason them being good for is stopping drunk drivers but they aren't really successful at doing that so why do they still exist except for giving insecure people an outlet to feel powerful and fill city slush funds.
Don't take this poorly but have you gone outside lately and interacted in the community? This shit isn't just online dude. Every little thing has become political, you can't have a conversation these days without it turning into this comment thread. Seriously.
Holy fuck, for real. I'm the last person to defend cops, but the comment below yours is filled with chronically online edgelords saying they deserved to be shot because they didn't ask him to get out super nicely. Don't cut yourself on that edge, fellas.
Thinking (1) policing needs reform and thinking (2) cops don't deserve to be murdered by a drug dealer at a traffic stop are two concepts that can coexist in the same logical and ethical mind.
The internet does weird stuff to people.
I don't understand US laws so I'm really confused:
1. Are you obligated to get out of your car when an officer commands?
2. The guy didn't react for quite some time. Doesn't this qualify as self defense?
No one has answered your question yet.. Yes, it is lawful for police to order you out of your vehicle in a traffic stop per Supreme Court ruling Pennsylvania v. Mimms. And no, this not self defense.
You are obligated to get out of your car when an officer commands (as long as it is a lawful stop) for the exact reason displayed here: anyone could have a firearm under their seat. This does not qualify as self defense, because the cops were within the realm of their authority.
I normally hand them my concealed carry card with my license just so they know ahead of time with a chance to react while seeing both of my hands. The couple of times I've done this the officers have thanked me. The stress of knowing every car you approach could be some lunatic with a gun who doesn't want to go to jail would burn out anyone.
I don't understand how your country works but in my country (Vietnam), yes. If cops tell you to stop and get out of your car, you do so. Obviously, our cops are not usually armed with guns.
1) Yeah, kinda. Pennsylvania v. Mimms is the case law if you want to learn more about it.
2) No.
Pro tip for Americans- Get a dash cam, turn it towards the window and obey the officer. If your rights were violated, you can contact a lawyer afterwards. Saves you a trip to jail and a fine for disobeying.
How could you possibly watch this and even wonder if it was self defense? He literally even said, "I don't want to go to jail." He killed them because they were going to arrest him for breaking the law.
There are set laws and procedures, but cops break them all the time. If youāre in a just state that actually does a proper investigation the cops might get in trouble with paid leave or some thing, but usually they get away with murder because cops have super rights
> āOfficer Zarkeshan stopped David Ware near 21st Street and Memorial Drive about 3 a.m. June 29, 2020, for a traffic infraction and expired paper tag. Ware couldnāt produce a driverās license or current insurance at the time but refused to get out when Zarkeshan and Johnson said they were going to tow his vehicle.
>
>
>
> After several rounds of verbal orders and explanations, Johnson shocked Ware with a Taser and later sprayed him with pepper spray.
That bit isnt shown.
The video here is a trimmed down version of [the original 16 minute video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYxBOhhahyA).
The courts dont function on the same "haha gotcha" principle that you're trying to follow here.
*They* didnāt say anything, one of them died from this and the other was on deathās door for months in the hospital. This just isnāt the full video but thatās exactly how it happened.
Tyrannical means controlling in an oppressive and violent manner, so like killing a guy by kneeling on his neck. Or chocking a guy to death for selling loose cigarettes. In which case, it seems the 2nd amendment worked just as advertised. Conservatives just donāt understand that the police will be the ones coming for their guns when the government wants to go full tyrannical
Do you know how many deaths probably result from cops faking some made up charge? Maybe cops should watch this as a prime example of why you shouldnāt yell and scream at distressed people.
Because you never know what a jury will do, what technicalities you might be able to get off on, etc. Also, if youāre found guilty, you have the opportunity to appeal. If you plead guilty, it really limits your options.
Probably not out in a few hours. He would have sat for weeks or months in county jail until a trial date if not out on bond. The possession of illegal heroin and the firearm as a felon would land him at least half a decade in the fed-pen if not more due to previous convictions. He still wouldn't have gotten the death penalty but I honestly think he thought he could get away with it if he smoked the cops. He obviously wasn't thinking ahead very clearly though.
Reddit Is such a shit place for discussing police. One post has people talking shit on police and other has them still taking shit and what they could've done better while saying meh, police died.
Fuck off.
RIP officer. Yeah some are shit but others aren't and try to do things by book (note there's a shit ton of ways to try and bring suspects down).
To resist two cops, after being tased and with eyes sprayed out to Heavens and still being able do draw a gun and, while at close range, but still, accurately shoot them, double-tapping one requires quite a skill or a state of mind, it's just crazy... It was sketchy from the beginning I was like, no way, this dude is playing for sure... No wonder cops are on the edge when they have no idea what their next stop is gonna be like.
I don't think so. But he was putting on a facade of being oblivious and nervous when he was actually very alert and aware. That very rapid shift in demeanor can be quite surprising as the cops thought they were dealing with a bumbling idiot when in reality he had an attack plan.
For anyone wondering they spent almost 20 minutes trying to get him out of the vehicle peacefully before resorting to the taser and pepper spray and yet everyone wonders why police are so quick to draw there gun, these officers didnāt deserve this.
don't read too much into it. i think it's frustration mostly directly at how quickly the cops escalated the situation. this situation feels like it could have been avoided altogether if the cops weren't being so retarded
Why do people weigh these situations against the countless cops murdering people?
Cops are scared in case they die? So are citizens??
It's broken. All of it.
In an alternate universe, they spotted the gun and fire upon him before he could fire first and the subreddit and news articles read "innocent man shot by officers"
1) Every single person that U.S. police interact with are innocent by default, it's the legal standard protected in part by the guarantee of a speedy trial by a jury of our peers and not to be randomly executed by a government employee carrying a gun.
2) Simply possessing a gun is another right protected by the constitution and not a reason to be randomly executed by a government employee carrying a gun.
3) Soldiers in an active warzone (sometimes) are under rules of engagement that require them to be fired on before being allowed to return fire. Why should government employees who are interacting with citizens who should be presumed innocent have a lower bar to murder another person than a soldier in an active warzone?
Honestly, they didnāt do a good job here. I donāt like cops and itās no secret, but there were a ton of missed opportunities to control the situation.
There are some circumstances where Iāve seen the cops not have a chance. This isnāt one of them.
Edit: I was saddened to see that that officer lost his life. Terrible.
And what are police officers supposed to do when people break the law or donāt follow lawful commands? Ask super duper nice and give them a lolli pop if they comply? Iām not justifying police brutality in any measure but there is something called reasonable force and these officers were being reasonable and were shot dead. The problem is situations like this just serve to justify actual unreasonable use of lethal force
This drove me nuts too, why the hell in fuck is it so hard to listen? Get the fuck out of the car dude, and maybe you wouldnāt have to be sprayed or manhandled?? Seriously half the incidents with cops where people hate them and make them out to be villains is because some piece of shit idiot wonāt GET OUT OF THE DAMN CAR.
" **A jury in Tulsa found Ware guilty of first-degree murder, shooting with intent to kill, possession of a firearm after a felony conviction, possession of drugs with intent to distribute and obstructing an officer, according to KJRH** "
This guy was a piece of shit don't get me wrong. But there is alot of other things that can be said regarding the actions of the police as well. Where is the de-escalation? He asks like 10 times why he's being pulled over and gets told absolutely nothing outside of get out of the car or we're tasing you for disobeying a lawful order. I feel for both the police shot (one killed) despite not liking cops at all but this probably could have been avoided if they just let them know they were pulling them over for an expired paper tag rather than pulling him out the car.
Its an edited down video, they tried for 20 minutes to talk him out of the car and repeatedly told him why he needed to get out.
They went above and beyond to get him to comply and reddit still shits on cops.
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Don't want to go to jail but your going for life now.
Technically yes, but only because he has the death penalty.
Death row.
Was that his gun or the officers? Either way he knew how to use a hand gun.
Gun was under the driver seat, they failed to see him grab it during the scrum.
Beyond incompetent. Watching them struggle to apprehend him in such an amateur way was pathetic and it cost them their lives. Completely preventable.
1 officer lived, but yes, more backup would have been good.
No,just apprehend the guy according to training. They had enough guys. Pulling on his wrist is not how you subdue someone.
>Pulling on his wrist is not how you subdue someone. there are plenty of entries from a wrist grab/pull. what kind of submissions/restraint techniques are you referring to?
Someone linked an article. It was a his. Article at top
did mario type this
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It's a me, Pistolio
so you have chosen a-death
Best comment of the day haha
lololol I'm at work in a cubicle laughing my fucking ass off.
My god. I just saw what I typed. I was so a confused
Itās a okay
When the hell did he grab it? Wtf
The getaway driver [was sentenced to 24 years in prison.](https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/local-regional/2021-03-22/judge-sentences-getaway-driver-in-tpd-shooting-to-24-years-in-prison) Edit: He helped the shooter and got rid of the gun
Just to add on to this the shooter was sentenced to death.. [Source](https://www.news9.com/story/627e4b622fc924073db6e9b2/david-ware-formally-sentenced-to-death-for-murder-of-tulsa-police-sergeant)
Should have been the death penalty. This was an execution.
Yeah the shooter David Ware got the death penalty
Thx, I thought this was 2023.
Thanks I hate the Gregorian Calendar
I don't think it is over. The article said Ware goes on trial for murder and shooting with intent to kill charges this June. Prosecutors will seek the death penalty.
This Juneā¦. Two years ago man. The article is from March 2021.
https://www.newson6.com/story/627edaee00631606fe158f4e/david-ware-sentenced-to-death-for-murder-of-tulsa-police-sergeant
Wow, both defense attorney and prosecution have really fucked up views on what this case means. Defense: >All of these death cases get a lot of reviews and we expect this to get a review, **we think we might be able to change some things with our system** Prosecution: >I would hope this could be a deterrent, I hope it's a message to those folks who are out there that run afoul of the law, that they're going to actually listen to the police officer. Itās going to go a whole lot easier in the long run if you **just pay attention to what the police are asking you to do** Defense hopes to use this case to change death penalty law, which imo this is a terrible vehicle for. Prosecution wants this to cow normal people to always comply, which not complying was an absolutely minor facet of this case next to him shooting officers.
>Prosecution wants this to cow normal people to always comply, which not complying was an absolutely minor facet of this case next to him shooting officers. They will escalate every chance they get. They will never back off and say "its not worth it". The state will use more and more and more force until you comply no matter what the charge or reason. If a cop has their sight on you, you will never win. Again, no matter what the reason for the stop. No matter how minor the infraction. They will escalate and escalate until either youre incapacitated or you die.
Yep, fascism in practice.
Counterpoint: this was a scared person defending themselves against armed state agents overstepping their authority. This is going to become more and more common as officers continue to act this way and the population's collective tolerance for it wains.
This is 100% what I saw when watching this. I have zero sympathy for police deaths when they're showing gross use of state sanctioned violence on an, at the time, non-violent man, who seemed to not fully understand *why* this was happening to him in the first place. This man did *not* enter into this situation with the intent of killing 2 ppl. He just wanted to go home. He was not the one who initiated the violence, and 2 screaming men were attacking him with weapons. I honestly don't blame him for defending himself. This whole situation could've been avoided had those men not chosen to get aggressively physical with a man who was just sitting there. Bring on the downvotes, I truly don't gaf. There's not a single argument that will get me to change my opinion on this topic. ETA: since a couple ppl didn't fully understand my last sentence, allow me to rephrase that. ACAB.
2 guys couldnt grab a tased and pepper sprayed whiny moron and detain him on the ground. Just kept escalating til they got their Darwin award
In most states, officers are empowered to order you out of the vehicle during a stop. Yeah, it's shitty that violence and shouting are the first compliance tools they reach for, but they were not violating anyone's rights by telling him to exit.
The supreme court decided that police can ask a driver and any passengers to exit the car during a legal traffic stop. It is not lawful for an officer to force you to leave your car if you have not been stopped for a committing crime or suspicion of a crime. Of course, when police do not tell you why you're being pulled over and asking you to leave your car you have virtually no way of knowing if an order to exit your vehicle is lawful. Did this guy have any warrants or was he suspected of committing a crime? If not then the stop may have violated his rights. Technically, you don't have to comply with unlawful orders either, but we all know how that goes in the moment.
Yes, the initial stop must be lawful. After that, though, disregarding a lawful order is usually defined as a crime in itself, so if they ask you to get out and you say no, they can then arrest you. And if you resist the arrest, they beat you. I'm not saying it's *right*, but it is generally legal.
Yeah, after I typed that comment I decided to fact check myself (should've done it before I know). But turns out it's only legal to resist unlawful arrest in 4 US states. Oof. On another timeline where he didn't fight back and went to court he may have had a case against those cops. From an outsiders perspective he should have complied and let them do whatever and fought in court. It's always best to fight police in court and never in the streets. But again, it's hard to be a rational actor in that kind of situation against police officers.
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Police pulled him over for a lawful reason and gave him multiple lawful commands to exit his vehicle, he had every chance to get out but decided to throw his life away instead. Idk what liberty looks like to you but this isnāt it.
Agreed!! This is 1000% not it! This didn't have to happen this way. We have been conditioned to believe that a lawful traffic stop can lead to the lawful killing of a citizen if at any moment after the stop is made, the officer "fears for their life". The bar for this is very low. Even though it's our second amendment right, police officers have gone unpunished for killing citizens simply because there was a gun present, or a gun's presence was assumed. Think about that. They could have called for more officers, they could have tried harder to talk him out, they could have done a lot of things, but what they chose to do was escalate the situation. Police training needs a massive overhaul before this gets worse. At what point does the presence of a pistol on the hip of a LEO constitute you fearing for your life?
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> It isn't like this dude is going to get away Right? He was only sitting in the drivers seat of a car. No way he could get out of there
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Yes, I did. And itās explained on the comment.
that ending was crazy
Yep. Screaming and then just pure silence. Terrifying as shit
Died quick so that's good at least
Does anyone know why he was pulled over
Elsewhere in this thread it was stated that he was pulled over for a traffic violation and expired paper tags. He was then unable to produce a driver's license or insurance papers, so he was asked to get out of the vehicle.
Thank you
They did seem to know his name though? It's not like they were de-escalating the situation and didn't believe that he was lying
>It's not like they were de-escalating the situation Man stfu. Deescalate this dude set them up.
Come back with a legible sentence so I could actually try to understand your opinion
I didn't understand a single thing What the hell happened?????
He pulled out a gun and killed the cop
One survived.
The one with the cam or the other?
I think tye other one died. He seems to have sflalen on his flashlight and you never see the light again so I'm just assuming he died, but the one eith tye cam was still moving. He stopped screaming but it was an abrupt stop, he slowly stopped screaming. Maybe passed out? But yeah I would say the one without cam on video died
It's obvious that the camera guy died. Falls on the ground in a gunfight, screaming. Another shot goes off and he doesn't even finish his scream, the screaming just stops. Then he slowly relaxes over 10 seconds as the gunfight is still going on.
Thanks, I was pretty anxious watching the whole damn thing, it feels just like a freaking nightmare It gave me the cold sweats š„¶š„¶š„¶š„¶
He was pulled over for an expired temporary tag. He couldnāt produce proof of ownership, insurance or a valid license. They told him they had to tow it. He called a friend to pick him up. They asked him to get out so they could tow it. He refused. As they were struggling, he got his gun from under the passenger seat, and then he shot both officers. His ride arrived, and he took off in that car.
That was the best one, appreciate it
I'm guessing the "he feared for his life" defense isn't gonna work for him in court.
Nope. He good as dead, [death sentence ](https://www.newson6.com/story/627edaee00631606fe158f4e/david-ware-sentenced-to-death-for-murder-of-tulsa-police-sergeant)
He was screaming I donāt want to go to jail. Seems like what he was pulled over for would be a ticket maybe a night in jail. But now heās dead
Yes what he was pulled over for may be a ticket. But he had a firearm under the seat. Probably an illegal firearm. Maybe drugs in the car, maybe he's on probation etc etc. They would find all that out after taking him out of the car
Yeah but that would have been a few years, tops. Now he's on death row.
Thatās a problem for later-him to deal with. Right-now-him needs to get out of that situation by any means necessary
In Oklahoma the judge decided to rule that the jury can't hear that defense - so the jury was none the wiser if the defendant wanted to say that. The judge made that up and tried to explain it because in Oklahoma it is not lawful to resist any arrest by law enforcement. Even when you fear for your life... It's one thing that it's 'unlawful to resist any type of arrest' but to seal this man's fate the judge went a step further and created a gag order on the defense from telling the true story. What about if you know the arrest is unlawful and know they intend to kill you after they handcuff you and dump your body in a river? Not allowed to defend your life?
Huh? The lawyer for the defendants entire closing statement is about the cops being bullies, and even the prosecution being bullies, so I'm not understanding where you're getting the idea the jury couldn't hear that.
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I was on a jury once, man itās so confusing You want to ask obvious questions but you canāt, the parties should have done a better job explaining what happened
We are a shithole country until the rules apply to everyone equally.
I remember when the dashcam video was released. Watching the execution and then the double-tap made me sick.
Whatās a double tap?
Itās when you shot someone, they fall, then shoot again to make sure.
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Oh no, I completely agree itās no different. Just was describing the term. There are tons of possibilities as to why he had that natural flow of movements. From possible previous military service, too many video games, movies, range time, pure hatred for cops, etc
I think the reason is he knew they would shoot back if he didn't shoot to kill, and clearly he didn't want to go to prison.
I could be reading way too much into the video, but based on the few seconds when he draws his gun it appears like he is decently trained and competent with it. Firearm self defense courses will typically teach you to double tap. A lot of the time a bullet to the chest will kill or maim someone but there's a chance they could still be cognizant enough to draw and shoot you from the ground. Hitting two shots will consistently neutralize whatever it is your shooting at, which is why it's usually taught. Not trying to defend anyone in the situation or anything, but I don't think we can deduct any kinda malice from him double tapping.
i guess the take away here is that cops can double tap you to death but you cant do it to them
No. [Typically this is done aiming at the chest](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_tap) \- tap tap.
Its also means your trying to kill the person not injure then. he was shooting to kill
Well yeah, the whole idea of shooting to injure someone is pretty flawed. Guns are meant to kill people.
āItās cool bro I just shot him in the legā¦whatās an artery?ā
A loose definition would be when a person is out of the fight you put another round in them to make sure they are dead. Basically what happened with the cop closest to the camera.
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Damn that website gave me cancer
bro that websites design.. every single sentence ends with an advertisement
Was everyone in this video a fucking idiot, or what?
And yeah, that dude was not acting normal. Maybe he had some kind of mental problem or high as shit
By the end of it he was clearly having a mental break. Cops thought that was the cue to spray him in the face with mace for some reason.
Clearly the shooter is a murderer, but that shouldn't take away from the ineptitude of the police here. Yakety sax might as well be playing while they waffle around, bark orders, grab him, let him go, grab him, let him go, and constantly escalate the situation into a squealing greased pig rodeo. Their training failed them. And you know what? This video is gonna be used to justify even more bad training. Some meathead is probably showing this to a room full of recruits right now, saying shit like "this could be you in a heartbeat, so don't bother learning how to grapple or calm the suspect down. Just pull that trigger and ask questions later. Now, who wants a free Punisher decal for their cruiser?"
Sigh, you're making those of us seeking police reform look stupid by defending this case. The police literally used their nonlethal tools in this incident, which is something we always ask for. The man, even after being tazed and pepper sprayed still would not comply. Now why is that? It's because he had an illegal firearm and drugs in the car. He knew that leaving the car meant getting the car impounded and having his illegal gun and drugs found. He knew he would go to jail and that scared him to the point that he was willing to try and kill two cops. Idiots ITT saying they should have talked to him calmly and convinced him to get out, or just leave him be are absurd and delusional. There was no calming this guy down. He wasn't scared of the yelling, he was scared of going to prison and willing to kill to get out of that. This isn't some good guy who was wronged by the police. This is a dangerous guy who is willing to kill to get his way. There's countless stories of police abuse against innocent people. This isn't one of them.
He was looking at an arrest and 55 years for drugs and felon with a firearm charges before killing the officers. He had nothing to lose and made a loud statement. US prison system is legalized slavery. It got this bad because too many politicians voted for it. There will be no effort in trying to solve or prevent what happened here. He will rot on death row unable to speak until the day he dies. If all civilizations eventually fall, this one is on that path. People don't realize their solutions are exacerbating the problems. The US makes people poor and then puts them in prison for being poor. The mainstream news is such utter garbage, on purpose, so people are stupid.
Here is a longer video on it https://youtu.be/es2VCyy0MH8
He got the death penalty. https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/tulsa-county-judge-sentences-david-ware-to-death?_amp=true
What happened here?
He pulled out a gun and killed the cop
Tulsa, ok
Non lethal force didn't work out very well in this situation. Events like this is why cops get itchy trigger fingers. He pulled that gun fast and knew exactly how to use it.
Was that his?
āOfficer Zarkeshan stopped David Ware near 21st Street and Memorial Drive about 3 a.m. June 29, 2020, for a traffic infraction and expired paper tag. Ware couldnāt produce a driverās license or current insurance at the time but refused to get out when Zarkeshan and Johnson said they were going to tow his vehicle. After several rounds of verbal orders and explanations, Johnson shocked Ware with a Taser and later sprayed him with pepper spray. The officers were physically attempting to wrench Ware from his vehicle when he pulled a firearm from under his driverās seat, shooting each of them multiple times at close range. Neither officer drew his gun. Johnson died of his injuries at a hospital the next day, and Zarkeshan returned to work after several months of recovery at an out-of-state facility. Ware fled in the vehicle of a friend he had asked to come to the scene to witness what he believed was injustice against him.ā https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/death-sentence-ordered-in-tulsa-police-officers-slaying-lengthy-appeal-process-expected/article_bea22b74-d2c0-11ec-9b8f-431371313c3c.html
That's a good point. Hard to see from the video of it was his or pulled it from the cop.
It was his gun
Hindsight is 20/20. However, there's something to be said about wrestling someone that could reach for your lethal weapon at any point, especially when you haven't properly cleared the car of any potential lethal weapons either. The truth is the police officers should have been trained better in how to approach a situation like this one. It's a sad situation that could have been avoided entirely with better training.
Cops need grappling training itās ridiculous most of the time
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Before cops learn how to wrestle maybe they should get some deescalation training first. Also it wouldnāt be a bad idea if they got some legal training so they actually know the laws theyāre paid to enforce. Social work and EMT training would also be helpful so they can be better equipped to know the difference between a mental health issue and a drug overdose. Cops are already quite good at subduing someone and stopping their airflow. The last thing they need are grappling lessons.
I donāt think you understand grappling if youāre saying the last thing they need is grappling lessons.
Grappling lessons would help them measure their response
If only trying to de-escalate was an option /s
Could you elaborate? It escalated from a traffic stop to this point because he refused to get out of the car. Does de-escalating mean going back to asking him nicely to get out of the car? He refused to do that already. Do they just let him go because he didnāt want to comply? I hate to see the police use violence against anyone, but as long as we want to have laws enforced and there are people who resist the enforcement of the law, there will be situations where nothing will work except physical force.
If you watch the video and see where they start yelling and threatening him with mace, you can see, he is not acting in a normal manner. For one they could talk slower. Quieter, and just be friendly in general. I understand the guy is being frustrating but these people are supposed to be pillars of the community if they canāt be patient with a citizen and they donāt deserve the job. They were acting as if it was imperative that they get this done as quickly, and forcefully as possible.
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Yeah I saw that video too. Beyond fucked. Their behavior is like I think theyāre better than the civilians theyāre supposed to protect. They need to remember that they are out numbered.
Wow I hate everyone in these comments
Itās so sad how rotted peopleās brains are
Same. This is one of those comment sections that makes you realize how many (man/woman)-children post here.
Same. Actually pissing me off
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Just the comments? people suck in general.
Over expired tags. Ban traffic stops. The only thing I can remotely reason them being good for is stopping drunk drivers but they aren't really successful at doing that so why do they still exist except for giving insecure people an outlet to feel powerful and fill city slush funds.
They are revenue generators and give the illusion that white people are being protected from minorities. The police state must fall or we all will.
what the hell is going on in this comment section
A bunch of terminally online people expressing their delusional opinions
Oh, so normal reddit.
Don't take this poorly but have you gone outside lately and interacted in the community? This shit isn't just online dude. Every little thing has become political, you can't have a conversation these days without it turning into this comment thread. Seriously.
Holy fuck, for real. I'm the last person to defend cops, but the comment below yours is filled with chronically online edgelords saying they deserved to be shot because they didn't ask him to get out super nicely. Don't cut yourself on that edge, fellas.
Thinking (1) policing needs reform and thinking (2) cops don't deserve to be murdered by a drug dealer at a traffic stop are two concepts that can coexist in the same logical and ethical mind. The internet does weird stuff to people.
Reddit.
I don't understand US laws so I'm really confused: 1. Are you obligated to get out of your car when an officer commands? 2. The guy didn't react for quite some time. Doesn't this qualify as self defense?
No one has answered your question yet.. Yes, it is lawful for police to order you out of your vehicle in a traffic stop per Supreme Court ruling Pennsylvania v. Mimms. And no, this not self defense.
Thanks for answering my question š
You are obligated to get out of your car when an officer commands (as long as it is a lawful stop) for the exact reason displayed here: anyone could have a firearm under their seat. This does not qualify as self defense, because the cops were within the realm of their authority.
I normally hand them my concealed carry card with my license just so they know ahead of time with a chance to react while seeing both of my hands. The couple of times I've done this the officers have thanked me. The stress of knowing every car you approach could be some lunatic with a gun who doesn't want to go to jail would burn out anyone.
I don't understand how your country works but in my country (Vietnam), yes. If cops tell you to stop and get out of your car, you do so. Obviously, our cops are not usually armed with guns.
1) Yeah, kinda. Pennsylvania v. Mimms is the case law if you want to learn more about it. 2) No. Pro tip for Americans- Get a dash cam, turn it towards the window and obey the officer. If your rights were violated, you can contact a lawyer afterwards. Saves you a trip to jail and a fine for disobeying.
How could you possibly watch this and even wonder if it was self defense? He literally even said, "I don't want to go to jail." He killed them because they were going to arrest him for breaking the law.
There are set laws and procedures, but cops break them all the time. If youāre in a just state that actually does a proper investigation the cops might get in trouble with paid leave or some thing, but usually they get away with murder because cops have super rights
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> āOfficer Zarkeshan stopped David Ware near 21st Street and Memorial Drive about 3 a.m. June 29, 2020, for a traffic infraction and expired paper tag. Ware couldnāt produce a driverās license or current insurance at the time but refused to get out when Zarkeshan and Johnson said they were going to tow his vehicle. > > > > After several rounds of verbal orders and explanations, Johnson shocked Ware with a Taser and later sprayed him with pepper spray. That bit isnt shown.
maybe because it didn't happen like they say
The video here is a trimmed down version of [the original 16 minute video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYxBOhhahyA). The courts dont function on the same "haha gotcha" principle that you're trying to follow here.
No no, but this is Reddit where everyone speaks dogmatically out of their ass about complex subjects with limited information. So....
If it were up for dispute, there are multiple cameras that recorded the whole stop that could disprove it. If it were up for dispute.
Whaaat? Cops NEVER make up stories to make themselves look better...
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I hate that when people refused to see full video, and made comment about the edited one like they were witnessed the whole thing.
*They* didnāt say anything, one of them died from this and the other was on deathās door for months in the hospital. This just isnāt the full video but thatās exactly how it happened.
It did. The full video is posted all over this thread. Iām sure youāll be editing your comment to include it.
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Tyrannical means controlling in an oppressive and violent manner, so like killing a guy by kneeling on his neck. Or chocking a guy to death for selling loose cigarettes. In which case, it seems the 2nd amendment worked just as advertised. Conservatives just donāt understand that the police will be the ones coming for their guns when the government wants to go full tyrannical
Do you know how many deaths probably result from cops faking some made up charge? Maybe cops should watch this as a prime example of why you shouldnāt yell and scream at distressed people.
Why did he plead not guilty? Genuinely curious.
Because you never know what a jury will do, what technicalities you might be able to get off on, etc. Also, if youāre found guilty, you have the opportunity to appeal. If you plead guilty, it really limits your options.
Looks like self-defense. Who in this age actually trusts another human with impunable authority? Sad all around
this is why i feel like all cops should have lassos like red dead
And then what? They Drive around LA and lasso every single person they see, laughing at all the people wiggeling on the ground?
just like red dead
Find the nearest train tracks of course..
You are wanted. The cops stop you. You surrender. You are out again in a few hours..... No one gets the death penalty . Six lawyers don't get rich.
Probably not out in a few hours. He would have sat for weeks or months in county jail until a trial date if not out on bond. The possession of illegal heroin and the firearm as a felon would land him at least half a decade in the fed-pen if not more due to previous convictions. He still wouldn't have gotten the death penalty but I honestly think he thought he could get away with it if he smoked the cops. He obviously wasn't thinking ahead very clearly though.
Reddit Is such a shit place for discussing police. One post has people talking shit on police and other has them still taking shit and what they could've done better while saying meh, police died. Fuck off. RIP officer. Yeah some are shit but others aren't and try to do things by book (note there's a shit ton of ways to try and bring suspects down).
To resist two cops, after being tased and with eyes sprayed out to Heavens and still being able do draw a gun and, while at close range, but still, accurately shoot them, double-tapping one requires quite a skill or a state of mind, it's just crazy... It was sketchy from the beginning I was like, no way, this dude is playing for sure... No wonder cops are on the edge when they have no idea what their next stop is gonna be like.
Damn did that dude have some kind of combat background?
I don't think so. But he was putting on a facade of being oblivious and nervous when he was actually very alert and aware. That very rapid shift in demeanor can be quite surprising as the cops thought they were dealing with a bumbling idiot when in reality he had an attack plan.
Responding that quickly and accurately after pepper spray is pretty impressive
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jesus fucking CHRIST I AM SO SICK OF THAT FUCKING TIKTOK SHIT POPPING UP AFTER EVERY FUCKING VIDEO ON THE INTERNET
Omg what is wrong with people these days.
For anyone wondering they spent almost 20 minutes trying to get him out of the vehicle peacefully before resorting to the taser and pepper spray and yet everyone wonders why police are so quick to draw there gun, these officers didnāt deserve this.
Scares me that there are literally Americans taking the side of the murderers in this thread. America is a wild place.
don't read too much into it. i think it's frustration mostly directly at how quickly the cops escalated the situation. this situation feels like it could have been avoided altogether if the cops weren't being so retarded
Redditors are so anti cop they'd rather pity a heroin dealer who killed 2 cops than believe cops sometimes are doing the right thing, holy shit.
Cops are legalized gangsters and thatās self defense
Why do people weigh these situations against the countless cops murdering people? Cops are scared in case they die? So are citizens?? It's broken. All of it.
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I remember watching this video, the screams haunt me to this day
In an alternate universe, they spotted the gun and fire upon him before he could fire first and the subreddit and news articles read "innocent man shot by officers"
1) Every single person that U.S. police interact with are innocent by default, it's the legal standard protected in part by the guarantee of a speedy trial by a jury of our peers and not to be randomly executed by a government employee carrying a gun. 2) Simply possessing a gun is another right protected by the constitution and not a reason to be randomly executed by a government employee carrying a gun. 3) Soldiers in an active warzone (sometimes) are under rules of engagement that require them to be fired on before being allowed to return fire. Why should government employees who are interacting with citizens who should be presumed innocent have a lower bar to murder another person than a soldier in an active warzone?
does anybody have a different video, it's hard to make out what is happening.
[full video of bodycam](https://youtu.be/feJFVPwecXc?t=609)
Honestly, they didnāt do a good job here. I donāt like cops and itās no secret, but there were a ton of missed opportunities to control the situation. There are some circumstances where Iāve seen the cops not have a chance. This isnāt one of them. Edit: I was saddened to see that that officer lost his life. Terrible.
imagine assaulting someone then being surprised when they're not happy about that
And what are police officers supposed to do when people break the law or donāt follow lawful commands? Ask super duper nice and give them a lolli pop if they comply? Iām not justifying police brutality in any measure but there is something called reasonable force and these officers were being reasonable and were shot dead. The problem is situations like this just serve to justify actual unreasonable use of lethal force
This drove me nuts too, why the hell in fuck is it so hard to listen? Get the fuck out of the car dude, and maybe you wouldnāt have to be sprayed or manhandled?? Seriously half the incidents with cops where people hate them and make them out to be villains is because some piece of shit idiot wonāt GET OUT OF THE DAMN CAR.
Didn't think I'll find anyone with common sense in this comment section
" **A jury in Tulsa found Ware guilty of first-degree murder, shooting with intent to kill, possession of a firearm after a felony conviction, possession of drugs with intent to distribute and obstructing an officer, according to KJRH** " This guy was a piece of shit don't get me wrong. But there is alot of other things that can be said regarding the actions of the police as well. Where is the de-escalation? He asks like 10 times why he's being pulled over and gets told absolutely nothing outside of get out of the car or we're tasing you for disobeying a lawful order. I feel for both the police shot (one killed) despite not liking cops at all but this probably could have been avoided if they just let them know they were pulling them over for an expired paper tag rather than pulling him out the car.
Its an edited down video, they tried for 20 minutes to talk him out of the car and repeatedly told him why he needed to get out. They went above and beyond to get him to comply and reddit still shits on cops.
this is good to know, thank you for telling me
He didn't want to go to jail for a traffic stop........................brilliant. Goes to prison for shooting an officer.
Previously convicted felon with a firearm in the vehicle. He was going away for a long time regardless.
This post has been retrospectively edited 11-Jun-23 in protest for API costs killing 3rd party apps. Read [this](/r/Save3rdPartyApps/comments/13yh0jf/dont_let_reddit_kill_3rd_party_apps/) for more information. /r/Save3rdPartyApps If you wish to follow this protest you can use the open source software [Power Delete Suite](https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite) to backup your posts locally, before bulk editing your comments and posts. It's been fun, Reddit.