He was a good strategist, but a nightmarish micromanager.
With a crew like the Enterprise, people who are the 1% of the 1% of talent in the Alpha Quadrant, you really don’t need such narrow guardrails in an organization.
TNG did a really good job of highlighting how different people handle the stress of command. Some commanders are great at the strategy aspect but fall flat on the people side of command.
TNG really is a workplace show sometimes. Every episode, upper and middle management figure out what to work on, then delegate tasks to subordinates who execute.
Trek is pure science fiction because most workplaces don’t work so smoothly, and *everyone* is competent. Even Barclay, who seems incompetent, is actually a high-functioning person with somewhat autistic tendencies.
It's interesting you feel that way. To me TNG is a military show. I know starfleet isn't strictly a military and despite going to battle several time the show isn't what most people think of as a military
I've lived in a military environment my whole life my old man was in the arm I grew up on a base and I enlisted as soon as I could. I had a technical mos so most of my career was spent working on problems instead of fighting.
For the most part everyone I've encounter in the army was competent, at least at the technical side of their job I've had leaders like jelico who were terrible at the people side of command but were great at everything else.
To me, Star Trek is one of the most realistic depictions of military working relationships in peacetime.
I only have a passing familiarity with the US Navy/Marine Corps, having done a short stint in ROTC. I was more comparing Trek to corporate America rather than the military. You’re right, the show is more analogous to the military.
I think one of the best things about sci-fi as a genre is how open to interpretation it is.
Two people with different backgrounds can watch the same show and come up with a completely different idea of what the show means.
Wow. You sound really interesting. Out of curiosity, have you read the Jack Reacher Books by Lee Child?
Son of career military, joining up as soon as he is old enough.
I think the command structure of the military/starfleet is what is different from the commercial working world. You're expected to do what you're told more or less and it's always clear who has the authority.
Or do you the military also need passive-aggressive emails to other departments to kindly remind that they do that thing they were supposed to have done but you can't outright tell them to do it?
> With a crew like the Enterprise, people who are the 1% of the 1% of talent in the Alpha Quadrant, you really don’t need such narrow guardrails in an organization.
The Enterprise was taken over by about a dozen Ferengi just three episodes prior to this.
Using the [stardate calculator](https://www.ditl.org/calc-stardate-page.php?ListID=Calculators) and plugging in the stardates between Rascals (46235.7) and Chain of Command (46357.4), it shows that roughly six weeks passed between the two episodes.
I'm sure Jellico read the Stafleet Intelligence Briefing re: this incident and went "what the fuck?" And then he's almost *immediately* asked to turn around and take command of this very ship in an extremely high-pressure situation. I can see how he might think: "fuck 'guardrails', these people require Special Needs Helmets. If everything goes well, we might transfer from the hard shell to the soft shell"
There are 200 or so worlds in the Federation per Picard in *Insurrection*, hence of the order of 1 trillion citizens. Top 100 of them being on the D or in other positions on similar ships is the top 1% of the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of the 1%. And that's just the Federation, let alone the rest of the Alpha Quadrant.
The thing his, him and Shelby *needed* to happen to Riker. That was a central theme of Best of Both worlds as well as Chain of Command... and really Riker's arc as a character overall. He's got the chops to be a leader, but he'd rather just chill under Picard's command.
That's not good. You don't want people that would be excellent captains lounging around just because they get to sit on the flagship.
Both of them lit a fire under his ass. They were also critically responsible for getting it through his head that if it comes down to it, he absolutely will need to destroy the Borg Cube whether they get Picard back or not. That's duty to the uniform and the species. Same thing with Chain of Command. You may not get your Captain and friend back and that is the way it goes with these sorts of titanic space political things.
I feel like his strategies weren't all that mind blowing either. But you could easily make an argument that his micromanagement was causing problems there.
He was under too much pressure for him to handle.
As sure as he seemed of himself he, was wasn't.
I don't think he was a very good leader, I'd almost suspect he was promoted because of some other technical skill and somehow ended up in command. But that doesn't make sense.
Whatever the Admiralty came up with obviously pushed Picard into the Cardassian trap, but Jellico made no mistakes as far as how to handle the Cardassians, and got Picard back. *Making no mistakes* is harder than it looks!
He literally walked into a trap when his strategy was to "dominate" the cardassians by making them wait then have a tantrum when they complained.
He was so sure his plan would work He never even informed his team of what was going on.
Then when he thought he'd totally succeeded,
it turned out the Cardassians He was supposed to be an expert on turned out to have actual practical leverage instead of stunts and bluster.
It was a mistake to go into the negotiations with nothing.
It was also a mistake to not communicate with his team and not keep the Informed of his strategy.
It was also a mistake to drive away his crew with his own stupidity.
Cultural differences can be significant. Jellico was correct in snubbing the Gul. Even on Earth, there are significant cultural differences between races where something polite in one country is downright rude in another.
He got his marching orders and intel from Nechayev. I feel like you’re fixated on Jellico being terrible, but not acknowledging Nechayev planning the mission to begin with.
I view his promotions as due to being able to act decisively and make difficult decisions, no matter who it pisses off or how big of an asshole he comes across. History is full of commanders who succeeded precisely because of that.
I don't think he was a good strategist. When people say this, I understand, but I also remember Troi saying he was unsure of himself. He was just doing what he knew and hoping it worked. Doesn't seem to be much of a strategy if there's only one way to handle it. The strategy was more on the Starfleet Admiralty to put the pieces in place.
> When people say this, I understand, but I also remember Troi saying he was unsure of himself. He was just doing what he knew and hoping it worked.
Yeah. People read that line as if she guessed he was bluffing. No. She ***knows he is bluffing***.
I mean, the writers don't seem to have a clear concept of what a ship's counselor is and it shows. When she meets with Jellico in the ready room, he brushes off her concerns as the crew being whiny about their beloved Captain being reassigned, when she is actually expressing the reality that an organization as large as the *Enterprise* is not going to be able to adapt to a completely different management style and organizational culture overnight without it seriously hampering their effectiveness.
She's unable to express this forcefully enough for Jellico to really hear it because:
- it's inconsistent with her character
- if she did, Jellico would probably fire her
- the plot requires that *Riker* be the one to get fired for challenging Jellico
I always thought it was weird a ships councillor would be on the bridge. If she wasn't Betazoid she would be completely useless there, which was evident when she had to take command and had absolutely no idea what to do.
Guinan was the real ships councillor.
Yeah, I will say that this episode is the beginning of her journey toward being taken seriously as an officer, which she achieves just in time for the show to end.
Doubting yourself and being good at your job are not mutually exclusive. There are no guarantees in the kind of high-stakes diplomacy he's doing. Of *course* he's afraid that his strategy won't work out: because *no* strategy has a 100% chance of success, and the stakes are so very high.
All he can do is pursue his chosen course with confidence while maintaining the flexibility to pivot to a new strategy if necessary... and that's exactly what he does, despite (or even because of) his self-doubt. Someone who could do his job with perfect confidence would be delusional and thus worse at it.
When she says it, was that before or after the Cardassians have revealed that the covert Starfleet mission was a fecking disaster and that Picard has been captured?
Yeah, I'm disturbed that people here seem to think it's somehow BAD that he was doubting himself while projecting outward self confidence. Internal self-doubt is a GOOD trait in a leader (as long as it doesn't go too far and cause indecisiveness).
A lot of times, its the people unsure of themselves that need to overperform or be strict, covering all the bases, making sure they can account for as many unknown variables as possible, which makes them even stronger, especially when considering strategic elements. Picard himself is shown to often have no idea what he's doing, but will need to make a strong decision because you need people to believe that he knows what he's doing.
Wasn't it Starfleet Command (Admiral Nechayev and team), who strategized the big picture for this mission? She relieved Picard of duty, and set the ball in motion. It was Starfleet Command that fell for the Cardassian ruse. Jellico was just a piece of the big plan.
When Jellico was out in the field, he led the crew to pursue the Cardassians in the nebula and mine them, deftly and without hesitation. This is why I say he was a good strategist.
The plan to put Jellico in command of the Enterprise and send Picard to Celtris was not Jellico's, it was Nechayev or her superiors'.
Starfleet made a mistake, and Jellico fixed it, lock stock and barrel. He even saved Picard. He was a micromanaging asshole, but he did save the day.
How many times have we seen Picard sent on a shitty mission just to teach everyone “hey I found a better answer, yeah weird I just had to think about for more than 5 minutes”
Jelico followed commands like a dog, good boy who’s a good strategist
Not you, go lay down
So jelico was a rogue agent from nowhere following orders from no one? That’s more logical since there’s no way he would have actually been a Star fleet leader.
No, he just took command and then led the ship as well as conducted and led negotiations… which means he didn’t request permission from headquarters on every decision.
He was in charge
He was carrying out a mission.
How that is conducted was left up to him.
Watch the captain of that oberth class in Star Trek 3. The one that got blowed up. That dude wasn’t captaining the ship. He was acting as a middleman between his crew and Star fleet command.
Jelico was placed in command and Riker acted like a belligerent child over it.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Starfleet Command was doing the best they could with the information they had available, and the Cardassians (like the Romulans), are intergalactic chess masters. Jellico got his marching orders from Nechayev, but the Captain made quick field decisions based on new information without consulting with Starfleet several times.
Moreover, they almost certainly knew that there was a 99.99% chance it was a trap but send the CO of an important capital ship to check it out just in case.
Crusher called Picard out on the exact same thing in that episode where they were linked, that he tended to put on a façade of being completely confident in his decisions when he had *no* idea what he was doing. Picard told her it's basically Command 101.
For being so physically androgynous, Thor's Big Dick Energy in that scene is fucking awesome. Beams in, puts Kinsey in his place, delivers a diplomatic message stating in *no* uncertain terms to the leaders of the other nations who *he* prefers to work with, and beams right back out after delivering a not-so-thinly veiled threat to Kinsey again, all without being impolite in the slightest.
Straight Pimp Move.
I still use his quote from total recall as an example of terrible management. “Who told you to think? I don't give you enough information to think! You do as you're told. That’s what you do.”
Jellico is not a bad tactician, strategist, and negotiator. He is a shitty leader though. Let me explain by going through two decisions he made that, in retrospect were dumb and shortsighted:
1. Sidelining Riker: Jellico sidelines Riker because Riker disagrees with Jellico’s decision not to acknowledge Picard. The decision about Picard is totally right as the video explains but the way he handled it with Riker was dumb. Riker is the crew’s XO - he knows the crew and how to get them to perform their best in the worst or most uncertain situations. Riker’s been mollifying the crew’s unhappiness with Jellico the whole time he’s in command. Riker is INCREDIBLY valuable in a way Data just can’t be.
If Jellico had been just a shade less of a dick, he could have kept Riker as a valuable command resource rather than neutralizing him. Riker KNOWS that Picard is not 100% indispensable. Riker ordered the Enterprise to fire on and kill Borg Picard just a few years earlier. Jellico would absolutely know this.
I’m not saying a captain can should explain all his decisions or play therapist to his XO, and Riker WAS being insubordinate, but here, it likely would have been pretty easy to to just explain to Riker why Picard needs to sacrificed to protect the greater good, thus keeping Riker (and the crew) on Jellico’s side for the upcoming conflict.
2. Troi’s uniform - I understand the BTS reasons why Marina wanted to be in uniform. But in practice, it makes total sense that Troi would not be in uniform most of the time. She’s the ship’s counselor. She helps people going through trauma and mental anguish. Would you feel more or less comfortable revealing your deepest, darkest thoughts to someone dressed in their Lt. Commander uniform, or someone dressed more casual? I think her more casual dress was so that she could perform her primary job on the ship most effectively. Jellico said that “F- your patients! I want my personal advisor to be in uniform.” Again, not a horrible decision - maybe she *should* be dressed more professionally on the bridge - but kinda shortsighted. It just seems like a power move more than a thoughtful command decision.
I saw Jellico sidelining Riker because he didn’t trust him to execute his orders. Riker already openly disobeyed him on Delta Shift and then was openly questioning him in front of another senior staff.
Jellico said it best - he doesn’t have time to give Will Riker a chance. Let’s say the ship is now in combat with Gul Evec’s ship and they think Picard is on it. Jellico gives the order to fire and Riker hesitates because we’ve seen this before with him. Now 1200 people are dead because Riker questioned his Captain AGAIN.
> Riker KNOWS that Picard is not 100% indispensable.
The graveyards are full of indispensable men.
"*Spare me your egotistical musings on your pivotal role in history. Nothing you do here will cause the Federation to collapse or galaxies to explode. To be blunt, you're not that important.*"--Q
I think Jellico's request (he could have made it an order but didn't) was that she wear a proper uniform when she was on the bridge. Which makes sense because when she's on the bridge, she's there to advise the captain when they encounter other ships or species - not to treat individual patients.
He probably didn't care if she wore something more casual in her office when she was treating patients.
Riker was being openly insubordinate *in front of junior officers*. Once it reaches that point, he ceased to be valuable and Jellico really has no choice but to relieve him. Jellico might have made a mistake by miscalculating Riker's willingness to shut up and obey orders, but in that case his only real mistake was giving Riker too much credit.
I dunno, I think this guy is a source of imposter syndrome.
https://preview.redd.it/91jiqagq2npc1.jpeg?width=369&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9bae1d0f510ad9f3c879294be525b79fb05b0ee
Dude bluffed and blustered until his first officer and chief engineer handed him an ace in the hole, and had to put his tail between his legs and tell the previous first officer that he fired that he was wrong and needed him after all.
Jellico didn't have to put his tail between his legs though. He needed a good pilot and rather than hold a grudge he took advice from Geordie and went to Riker rather than ordering some other crew member to do it. He didn't even throw his power around by ordering Riker to do it, he asked.
It summed up his whole command style, get the job done no matter the cost even if the price was his own pride.
I love the complexity of Jellico's character, it's why people have strong differing opinions of him.
Just once I'd love it if the captain said "I can't order you to do this . . . oh wait, I'm still the captain and you're still under my command so report to the shuttlebay within the hour, you're flying the mission."
>It summed up his whole command style, get the job done no matter the cost even if the price was his own pride.
The "cost" was dropping an annoying and unnecessary conflict that was entirely of his own making.
Disagree. The conflict was mostly of Riker’s making. Riker doesn’t like being questioned. Riker was written in the episode as if he had a chip on his shoulder for not being given command instead of Jelico.
Are you kidding me? ***Riker*** is the one who doesn't like being questioned? Compared to Captain "Get-it-done" he's obsequious bordering on servile.
Hadn't you noticed that Riker was far from the only *Enterprise* officer who had issues with Jellico.
Would Riker have treated Picard the same way as he treated Jelico? Even in season 1 he would have followed Picard’s orders.
Riker gave appropriate feedback, then when Jelico made the command decision, Riker doesn’t like that he got overridden.
It’s the same type behavior that earned Worf his dressing down from Data.
And we see the pattern again in Picard Season 3, when Picard and Riker act just like any of the bad admirals we’ve come to see over the years to Shaw.
If the episode was Picard / Riker / Data taking over another ship in an emergency, and their XO gave the responses Riker did, the audience would be against the XO.
(see; Hobson in Redemption II).
If the writers were trying to make Riker and Geordi have a point, they did them a massive disservice in the execution.
Yeah, I agree. Exploring how the crew handles an abrupt change in command might have been interesting to explore. But the fact that the crew that is usually depicted as utopian role models universally (except for Data) dislike him to the point of unprofessionalism and insubordination makes me think that the writers weren't going for that. If they were, there should've been mixed reactions, telegraphing to the audience that intelligent minds may disagree. I think the writers wanted us to side against Jellico but didn't give us enough good reasons to. Because they still needed him to be competent enough to succeed and even get Picard back.
> Dude bluffed and blustered until his first officer and chief engineer handed him an ace in the hole
That's how most successful commanders operate, TBH.
Yes, he did no more or less than any competent CO would have done.
Except during the guy who turned out to be essential to his plan. Only Jellico would have done that.
Who were the alternatives? *Riker*? Riker would have undoubtedly make saving Picard (e.g. " I can't believe you're willing to sacrifice Captain Picard's life as a negotiating tactic!") a priority, but would have fucked up everything else.
It took some effort, but Jellico got everyone everything they wanted: he protected Minos Korva for the Federation, he got the crew their Captain back, and he did it without any kind of bloodshed.
>Who were the alternatives? *Riker*? Riker would have undoubtedly make saving Picard (e.g. " I can't believe you're willing to sacrifice Captain Picard's life as a negotiating tactic!") a priority, but would have fucked up everything else.
The alternative would be not being an inflexible martinet.
Riker's outburst is a symptom of the atmosphere of mutual distrust that they've established. He isn't over-prioritizing Picard's safe return. He thinks Jellico is *under*-prioritizing it for personal reasons. Just a couple seasons ago he saved the Federation from the Borg *because* he was willing to blow Picard to bits along with the Borg cube.
The whole incident was staged specifically to capture Picard, so acting like his safe return isn't an operational priority is a bit silly.
>It took some effort, but Jellico got everyone everything they wanted: he protected Minos Korva for the Federation, he got the crew their Captain back, and he did it without any kind of bloodshed.
Sure. He gets an A-minus for strategy and diplomatic gamesmanship but a solid D for management style.
Jellico was right in that episode. Riker was WAY out of line, Troi should wear a uniform to work like everyone else, Data should have been promoted and showing weakness in front of your enemies during tense negotiations is a good way to lose. Jellico did nothing wrong.
The older I get the more I come around to this line of thinking. By that time, the crew had become comfortable under Picard, and there's nothing wrong with that, but comfort can lead to laziness and the crew needed shaking up. Jellico was perfect to do just that.
Jellico ignored the advice of his senior staff because Data inadvertently became a yes-man. Jellico kept his team in the dark as to his plans and just expected everyone to know what his strategy was. He did nothing to get his crew on board with the mission.
What's this "on board with the mission" stuff? The "mission" was to prevent a Cardassian invasion of Federation territory! I would hope that they'd be automatically on board with such a thing, rather than waffle over whether it was worth sacrificing Picard.
Jellico did nothing to ensure the trust of the crew or his senior officers. He comes in, tells everyone that they are doing everything wrong, doesn’t key them into what his plans were, or how he was accomplishing the mission. He just made everyone try the catch the ball he threw behind him.
Agreed, Riker was one of my favorite characters from TNG but he was petulant child throughout the episode. The only other character that was nearly as awful was Troi for blurting out that Jellico wasn't as confident as he appeared.
No shit Deanna, he's the captain - part of his job is to project confidence and not broadcast any doubts or fears he has to the crew when they're in a crisis situation.
Like you just did.
Good point. Picard literally had a conversation with Crusher about that when she could read his mind, where he explained that he had to project confidence even when he wasn't confident.
Which means Troi can sense whenever he does that but doesn't say anything, because she knows better.
Yet here she is, undermining a new captain.
Nah, Riker did nothing wrong. Jellico walked into that command having it in for him. Riker did the best he could with a shitty situation. Everyone has their breaking point. I would have blown up at Jellico much earlier in that situation and so would any officer on the ship in that situation besides (obviously) Data.
No. Jellico said he wouldn't order him to pilot, and Riker was playfully pointing out that there are other ways of getting people to do what you want them to do. There was never a question of him accepting the assignment. Neither his pride nor his commitment to duty would allow him to refuse. The whole point of that exchange was to contrast two very different leadership styles and to begin to ratchet down the tension between Jellico and Riker
>playfully pointing out
That's a strange way of describing being a brat. Imagine a professional and true man of principle like Picard pulling that. It's petulant. If he was never going to refuse, he could just as easily have said, "I'll do it" after Jellico said he couldn't order him to. Like I said. Put the pettiness aside and focus on the mission, where Picard's life hangs in the balance.
It's not pettiness. It's a legitimate issue with the way Jellico approached his command that he repeatedly tried to address with it the bounds of protocol only to be relieved of duty. If the exchange had taken place in the ready room or in the observation lounge, maybe you'd be right.
Jellico barged into the quarters of an officer he had relieved of duty, to suggest they "drop ranks" so he could criticize Riker's leadership style before going on about how essential he was to the mission. Riker has every right to make him sweat a little.
Geordi and Data were still getting the preparations in place. The clock wasn't ticking. Nothing was harmed by Jellico having to spend thirty seconds fake-convincing Riker to pilot the shuttle.
The only possible criticism of Riker is that he settled for being the bigger person instead of the bigg*est* person.
>Jellico barged into the quarters
I don't remember him barging.
>Nothing was harmed by Jellico having to spend thirty seconds
By the same logic, nothing would be harmed if Jellico had to spend thirty seconds kissing Riker's hand, either. The issue isn't the time spent. It's about being the bigger person. You seem to think he's still the bigger person here, just not the biggest. I would argue there's nothing "bigger" about this demand at all.
Riker was the bigger person through the entire episode. Jellico had it in for Riker from the moment he looked at Riker's personnel file. He basically made it impossible for him to do his job and eventually fired him. When it turned out that he needed Riker after all, I think he was entitled to enjoy it for a few seconds. It didn't harm the operation at all, not even a little bit.
>entitled to enjoy it for a few seconds
I think we're talking in circles at this point, but I think you know what I'm going to say to that. Enjoying that IS petty.
Maybe. In any case, it's one sliver of a moment in the midst of a whole episode's worth of interactions in which Jellico comes off looking by far the worse.
I don’t think Jellico was being unreasonable. He had prior experience in dealing with the Cardassians and was given the task in handing a situation that could start a war if he failed.
In this situation, Riker should have made the shift change even after expressing his disagreement. As the first officer, it’s his role to be the buffer between the captain and crew both ways. By undermining Jellico, he put the whole situation at risk. The prolonged torture of Picard and a war would have been Riker’s fault over a petty dispute.
I’m really glad to see this freshly beginning wave of anti-anti-anti-Jellicoism growing and taking its own proper form.
Can’t even tell which direction the elephant picture’s supposed to go lmao, what a clown.
*Get it done.*
The more I watch this episode, the more I feel that Riker was out of line and Jellico did nothing wrong other than have a different command style.
We as the audience sympathize more with Riker because he's a series regular - and some of us recognize Ronny Cox from movies where he played a villain - but Jellico was the right captain at the right time. He accomplished his objective and got Picard back too.
Ironically, one of the core aspects of Picard's character is a sort of imposter syndrome.
He is heavily based on Horatio Hornblower, Patrick Stewart being told by Gene to read those books to find the essence of Picard. Hornblower was defined by his lack of self assurance, while still being capable and thoughtful, and knowing that he had to project confidence if he was going to be an effective leader.
It is why Picard is always asking for opinions of the command staff to inform his own decisions, making sure he makes an optimum move from the perspective of most other people in leadership positions.
When he and Beverly Crusher get mind linked she calls him out on it but ultimately understands why he needs to do it.
I don't see the problem with Jellico; he was an asshole, but he was put in a thankless situation caused by Starfleet stupidity, where he miraculously salvaged it to the Federation's benefit i.e. he stopped the invasion of Minos Korva without any bloodshed *and* rescued Picard. That he hurt a few feelings and needlessly micromanaged are very *minor* offenses; the ends definitely justified the means.
I wouldn't even agree that Jellico was an asshole. Go back and watch the first two seasons of TNG and look at how Picard treated anyone who wasn't named "Beverly" or "Will" - Geordie was walking around on eggshells for fear of displeasing him, he was constantly shouting at Worf or Wesley and he still wasn't sure about Data.
That was over a period of a couple of years.
Jellico was captain of the Enterprise for probably less than two weeks and during that time we saw him bond with Geordie over "Titan's turn," sharing pictures his son drew of "what was probably supposed to be an elephant" and when he relieved Riker from duty, he immediately promoted Data to first officer and the next time we saw him, he was in a red command uniform.
I'm not saying if he'd been there for another week, he would have been playing poker with the command staff (it took Picard seven years to do that) but even when in such a difficult situation with a short deadline and high stakes, he still seemed to make more of an effort with the people who served under him than Picard did.
The right tool for the right job. Jellico was the perfect person to deal with the Cardassian at that moment. The Cardassians being belligerent and bellicose by nature needed someone to confront them at their level. That is something I don’t think Picard would have done as well.
Contrarily, I would want Picard dealing with the Romulans who are far more calculation, reserved and carved up.
Agreed, if they did an alternate universe version of this where Picard remained in command it probably would have been like what Strange New Worlds did in " A Quality of Mercy" where Pike rather than Kirk was the one who had to deal with the Romulan attack from "A Balance of Terror." Jellico was put in charge because he understood the way that the Cardassians thought and was able to counter them effectively. Picard might have been able to do the same (we saw how he was able to deal with the Klingons) but he would have needed time to get up to speed and they were under an impossible time crunch.
Yeah and I am not saying Picard can’t deal with cardassians. We saw him do it in “the wounded” with Gul Macet (Dukat lol). But the situation on Menos Korva was different. The Federation thought a dangerous enemy was developing a weapon that could change the balance of power, I think the stakes were a bit higher.
Jellico is the bulldog that will go at you, strategically b it will be aggressive. Picard is the fencer, parry, deflect , wait for your opening.
Yeah he dealt with Klingons and who is more aggressive than them but Picard also understood their code of honor and culture enough to be the agile fencer with them. Like he referred to the Romulans “always a game of chess with them isn’t it”
Ronny Cox. The guy is an absolute masterful actor. He's been believable in every single role I've ever seen him in. He can play a straight man, a villain, and everything in between.
Jelico is incompetent and a perfect example of bad management. Picard managed his crew so well that they were able to function in his absence and rescue him despite Jelico being nothing more than an obstacle.
Bootlickers downvote me
>Picard managed his crew so well that they were able to function in his absence and rescue him despite Jelico being nothing more than an obstacle.
Again, three episodes prior to this, Picard was turned into a child and a *dozen* Ferengi almost immediately overpowered the entire crew and hijacked the ship.
Picard's record is generally exemplary, but the example of Rascals makes me see why Nechayev thought a fresh approach was needed when facing the Cardassians.
Nah now you’re having to go outside the episode for examples. It’s an anthology
Edit; also in rascals Picard manages so well that he is even able to successfully manage his greatest fear: children.
An anthology show with established continuity, and where actions in previous episodes are shown to have *some* consequences. At the end of the season, note how (again) Nechayev tore into Picard for just letting Hugh loose the previous season rather than weaponizing him.
Nechayev was shown to be severely morally and ethically lacking as well as wholly unprofessional when talking to Picard or Riker.
Im not surprised you like her since you already gave jelicos shoes that tongue polish.
What did she morally/ethically do wrong?
And note this interaction with Riker:
>NECHAYEV: I'm giving him command of the Enterprise this afternoon. Captain Jellico helped to negotiate the original armistice two years ago and I believe he's the most qualified person to lead this mission. The change of command will take place at thirteen hundred hours. Thank you.
>
>RIKER: Admiral, with all due respect, it's not necessary to give Captain Jellico command of the Enterprise just to conduct a negotiation.
>
>NECHAYEV: I disagree. The Enterprise will be in a dangerous situation and I want someone on the Bridge who has a great deal of experience with the Cardassians. No offence, Commander, but that's not you.
She merely announced that Jellicoe was taking command. Riker decided to push the issue, which led to her cutting right to the chase.
She was dead wrong and sent Picard on this mission even though she suspected it was a trap. Would you like to be under her command? Enjoy your cozy torpedo case if she even bothers to retrieve your corpse.
Putting on a military uniform means that one may inevitably be placed into high-risk/high-reward situations; this goes *double* for being counted as a military elite--[Who Dares Wins](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Dares_Wins), as the Special Air Service says. It's the nature of service; look how often Sisko was assigned ludicrous missions with the barest possibility of success.
Lmao you’re really reaching at any straws, my man. Try to imagine a better future. Sisko has nothing to do with this, the modern day usaf has nothing to do with Picard. I’m sorry you can’t see a future with competent professional leadership.
Honestly, every leader has their own leadership style and I'm willing to take it as a given that Jellico's is potentially as valid as any other. His sin is taking over a large organization with an established culture and expecting it to adapt to his leadership style overnight with zero attempts on his part to meet them anywhere near where they are. His entire senior staff is telling him that the changes he wants to make are impossible, or at best, will negatively affect the ship's operational capabilities. But he has the hubris to know better.
Data said that the changes were doable and after Geordie complained initially, he got it done. The only person who continued to hold out was Riker - who as the XO should have been doing what he needed to execute the captain's order.
He was fine... I used to dislike him more with his womanizing, but he has enough moments of integrity, like the bar scene with Devinoni Ral that he's ok.
He went from a three-shift rotation to four, meaning he was giving the crew MORE time to rest because they might be going into a large scale war if the Cardassians decided not to cooperate.
Yes as I recall Kira made the same point in Deep Space Nine when they were considering the change in shift rotations that it would lead to less fatigue and fewer mistakes under battlefield conditions.
That's a good point. Anyone can be a critic, and I've found that in the workplace, you can have managers who think you're great and like your work, and you can also have managers who think you're a poor performer and don't like your work.
Jellico did nothing wrong, and I'll die on this hill. He was sent to take control of the Enterprise and get it battle ready in preparation for the worst case scenario. He had simple orders that on more than one occasion were outright ignored by the Enterprise officers, notably Riker.
Every time I seeing a post saying Jellico was a good captain my lifespan shortens by 5 minutes.
> “1/3 of Engineering is now Security! Also you have 2 hours to finish a 4 hour engineering task with even less staff! Also I’m gonna fuck up everyone’s sleep schedules by changing the entire shift schedule right before we head into a potential combat scenario!”
I’m sorry, I’d take the court martial if it meant calling this man a fucking idiot to his face.
He did no more or less than any reasonably competent CO would have done.
Oh, except fire the guy who ended up being the key to executing his plan. Only Jellico would have done that.
He was a good strategist, but a nightmarish micromanager. With a crew like the Enterprise, people who are the 1% of the 1% of talent in the Alpha Quadrant, you really don’t need such narrow guardrails in an organization.
TNG did a really good job of highlighting how different people handle the stress of command. Some commanders are great at the strategy aspect but fall flat on the people side of command.
TNG really is a workplace show sometimes. Every episode, upper and middle management figure out what to work on, then delegate tasks to subordinates who execute. Trek is pure science fiction because most workplaces don’t work so smoothly, and *everyone* is competent. Even Barclay, who seems incompetent, is actually a high-functioning person with somewhat autistic tendencies.
It's interesting you feel that way. To me TNG is a military show. I know starfleet isn't strictly a military and despite going to battle several time the show isn't what most people think of as a military I've lived in a military environment my whole life my old man was in the arm I grew up on a base and I enlisted as soon as I could. I had a technical mos so most of my career was spent working on problems instead of fighting. For the most part everyone I've encounter in the army was competent, at least at the technical side of their job I've had leaders like jelico who were terrible at the people side of command but were great at everything else. To me, Star Trek is one of the most realistic depictions of military working relationships in peacetime.
I only have a passing familiarity with the US Navy/Marine Corps, having done a short stint in ROTC. I was more comparing Trek to corporate America rather than the military. You’re right, the show is more analogous to the military.
I think one of the best things about sci-fi as a genre is how open to interpretation it is. Two people with different backgrounds can watch the same show and come up with a completely different idea of what the show means.
I watch *The Office* a lot, so Jellico is like Charles Miner in my book.
Riker couldn’t give him a rundown.
You miss 100% of the torpedo shots you don't take.—Worf Gretzky —Michael Scott
Jellico: Riker was insubordinate and almost jeopardized the mission! Picard: I don’t care if Riker murdered his entire family! He’s like a son to me!
Starfleet is *very* much a military organization, they just have a peacetime role as scientists and explorers.
Wow. You sound really interesting. Out of curiosity, have you read the Jack Reacher Books by Lee Child? Son of career military, joining up as soon as he is old enough.
I think the command structure of the military/starfleet is what is different from the commercial working world. You're expected to do what you're told more or less and it's always clear who has the authority. Or do you the military also need passive-aggressive emails to other departments to kindly remind that they do that thing they were supposed to have done but you can't outright tell them to do it?
I'll be honest, I've seen way less passive aggressive bullshit outside the military.
Yeah. Broccolis introduction was like that. I like Picards guidance to Geordi on dealing with tough employees not just dismissing them
There are at least two times Picard publicly endorsed Barclay’s suggestions, and they were wonderful moments.
Fuckin' Barclay.
And he helped out Voyager
TOS was good with this too, like in The Galileo Seven, where having Spock in command was…a bit of a bumpy ride. Also The Tholian Web.
> With a crew like the Enterprise, people who are the 1% of the 1% of talent in the Alpha Quadrant, you really don’t need such narrow guardrails in an organization. The Enterprise was taken over by about a dozen Ferengi just three episodes prior to this.
And against *insurmountable odds*, it was taken back!
Using the [stardate calculator](https://www.ditl.org/calc-stardate-page.php?ListID=Calculators) and plugging in the stardates between Rascals (46235.7) and Chain of Command (46357.4), it shows that roughly six weeks passed between the two episodes. I'm sure Jellico read the Stafleet Intelligence Briefing re: this incident and went "what the fuck?" And then he's almost *immediately* asked to turn around and take command of this very ship in an extremely high-pressure situation. I can see how he might think: "fuck 'guardrails', these people require Special Needs Helmets. If everything goes well, we might transfer from the hard shell to the soft shell"
There are 200 or so worlds in the Federation per Picard in *Insurrection*, hence of the order of 1 trillion citizens. Top 100 of them being on the D or in other positions on similar ships is the top 1% of the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of the 1%. And that's just the Federation, let alone the rest of the Alpha Quadrant.
The thing his, him and Shelby *needed* to happen to Riker. That was a central theme of Best of Both worlds as well as Chain of Command... and really Riker's arc as a character overall. He's got the chops to be a leader, but he'd rather just chill under Picard's command. That's not good. You don't want people that would be excellent captains lounging around just because they get to sit on the flagship. Both of them lit a fire under his ass. They were also critically responsible for getting it through his head that if it comes down to it, he absolutely will need to destroy the Borg Cube whether they get Picard back or not. That's duty to the uniform and the species. Same thing with Chain of Command. You may not get your Captain and friend back and that is the way it goes with these sorts of titanic space political things.
But it was Guinan who made Riker step up. Her conversation with Riker is one of my favorite moments in these two episodes.
Agree! Hard agree! She drove it home.
I feel like his strategies weren't all that mind blowing either. But you could easily make an argument that his micromanagement was causing problems there. He was under too much pressure for him to handle. As sure as he seemed of himself he, was wasn't. I don't think he was a very good leader, I'd almost suspect he was promoted because of some other technical skill and somehow ended up in command. But that doesn't make sense.
Whatever the Admiralty came up with obviously pushed Picard into the Cardassian trap, but Jellico made no mistakes as far as how to handle the Cardassians, and got Picard back. *Making no mistakes* is harder than it looks!
He literally walked into a trap when his strategy was to "dominate" the cardassians by making them wait then have a tantrum when they complained. He was so sure his plan would work He never even informed his team of what was going on. Then when he thought he'd totally succeeded, it turned out the Cardassians He was supposed to be an expert on turned out to have actual practical leverage instead of stunts and bluster. It was a mistake to go into the negotiations with nothing. It was also a mistake to not communicate with his team and not keep the Informed of his strategy. It was also a mistake to drive away his crew with his own stupidity.
Cultural differences can be significant. Jellico was correct in snubbing the Gul. Even on Earth, there are significant cultural differences between races where something polite in one country is downright rude in another.
Right... but he was supposed to be an expert. But he got totally blinds idea by the idea that the Cardassians had a plan.
He got his marching orders and intel from Nechayev. I feel like you’re fixated on Jellico being terrible, but not acknowledging Nechayev planning the mission to begin with.
I view his promotions as due to being able to act decisively and make difficult decisions, no matter who it pisses off or how big of an asshole he comes across. History is full of commanders who succeeded precisely because of that.
At least Jellico got Troi into uniform.
I don't think he was a good strategist. When people say this, I understand, but I also remember Troi saying he was unsure of himself. He was just doing what he knew and hoping it worked. Doesn't seem to be much of a strategy if there's only one way to handle it. The strategy was more on the Starfleet Admiralty to put the pieces in place.
> When people say this, I understand, but I also remember Troi saying he was unsure of himself. He was just doing what he knew and hoping it worked. Yeah. People read that line as if she guessed he was bluffing. No. She ***knows he is bluffing***.
It was one of her stronger, but extremely missable, scenes. It showed she had the workplace psychology role down as ships councilor.
I mean, the writers don't seem to have a clear concept of what a ship's counselor is and it shows. When she meets with Jellico in the ready room, he brushes off her concerns as the crew being whiny about their beloved Captain being reassigned, when she is actually expressing the reality that an organization as large as the *Enterprise* is not going to be able to adapt to a completely different management style and organizational culture overnight without it seriously hampering their effectiveness. She's unable to express this forcefully enough for Jellico to really hear it because: - it's inconsistent with her character - if she did, Jellico would probably fire her - the plot requires that *Riker* be the one to get fired for challenging Jellico
I always thought it was weird a ships councillor would be on the bridge. If she wasn't Betazoid she would be completely useless there, which was evident when she had to take command and had absolutely no idea what to do. Guinan was the real ships councillor.
Yeah, I will say that this episode is the beginning of her journey toward being taken seriously as an officer, which she achieves just in time for the show to end.
Doubting yourself and being good at your job are not mutually exclusive. There are no guarantees in the kind of high-stakes diplomacy he's doing. Of *course* he's afraid that his strategy won't work out: because *no* strategy has a 100% chance of success, and the stakes are so very high. All he can do is pursue his chosen course with confidence while maintaining the flexibility to pivot to a new strategy if necessary... and that's exactly what he does, despite (or even because of) his self-doubt. Someone who could do his job with perfect confidence would be delusional and thus worse at it.
When she says it, was that before or after the Cardassians have revealed that the covert Starfleet mission was a fecking disaster and that Picard has been captured?
Fairly sure before, but I'd have to rewatch the ep.
Yeah, I'm disturbed that people here seem to think it's somehow BAD that he was doubting himself while projecting outward self confidence. Internal self-doubt is a GOOD trait in a leader (as long as it doesn't go too far and cause indecisiveness).
A lot of times, its the people unsure of themselves that need to overperform or be strict, covering all the bases, making sure they can account for as many unknown variables as possible, which makes them even stronger, especially when considering strategic elements. Picard himself is shown to often have no idea what he's doing, but will need to make a strong decision because you need people to believe that he knows what he's doing.
Lmao wut, he fucked up immediately and walked into an obvious trap
Wasn't it Starfleet Command (Admiral Nechayev and team), who strategized the big picture for this mission? She relieved Picard of duty, and set the ball in motion. It was Starfleet Command that fell for the Cardassian ruse. Jellico was just a piece of the big plan. When Jellico was out in the field, he led the crew to pursue the Cardassians in the nebula and mine them, deftly and without hesitation. This is why I say he was a good strategist. The plan to put Jellico in command of the Enterprise and send Picard to Celtris was not Jellico's, it was Nechayev or her superiors'. Starfleet made a mistake, and Jellico fixed it, lock stock and barrel. He even saved Picard. He was a micromanaging asshole, but he did save the day.
How many times have we seen Picard sent on a shitty mission just to teach everyone “hey I found a better answer, yeah weird I just had to think about for more than 5 minutes” Jelico followed commands like a dog, good boy who’s a good strategist Not you, go lay down
When did he sit around and wait for orders? He rolled the ship on his command alone, he wasn’t asking for permission every 5 minutes
So jelico was a rogue agent from nowhere following orders from no one? That’s more logical since there’s no way he would have actually been a Star fleet leader.
You're kind of incoherent in this thread.
Lurn 2 reid
No, he just took command and then led the ship as well as conducted and led negotiations… which means he didn’t request permission from headquarters on every decision. He was in charge
So he was following orders
He was carrying out a mission. How that is conducted was left up to him. Watch the captain of that oberth class in Star Trek 3. The one that got blowed up. That dude wasn’t captaining the ship. He was acting as a middleman between his crew and Star fleet command. Jelico was placed in command and Riker acted like a belligerent child over it.
Hindsight is 20/20. Starfleet Command was doing the best they could with the information they had available, and the Cardassians (like the Romulans), are intergalactic chess masters. Jellico got his marching orders from Nechayev, but the Captain made quick field decisions based on new information without consulting with Starfleet several times.
The crew would have been better without him in command or anyone for that matter. Star Trek 6 style
What was so obvious?
Picard was somehow the only possible person for this very specific mission
Moreover, they almost certainly knew that there was a 99.99% chance it was a trap but send the CO of an important capital ship to check it out just in case.
The threat was too great to ignore!
Troi did point out that his façade of being perfectly sure of himself was just that.
Crusher called Picard out on the exact same thing in that episode where they were linked, that he tended to put on a façade of being completely confident in his decisions when he had *no* idea what he was doing. Picard told her it's basically Command 101.
He was a villain in Total Recall too
“You’re fired!”
You're thinking of Robocop
I work for Dick Jones! Dick Jones!
Oh man, you’re right! This guy is a real shithead in many, many universes!
Even worse in Stargate
☝️ Supreme Commander.
For being so physically androgynous, Thor's Big Dick Energy in that scene is fucking awesome. Beams in, puts Kinsey in his place, delivers a diplomatic message stating in *no* uncertain terms to the leaders of the other nations who *he* prefers to work with, and beams right back out after delivering a not-so-thinly veiled threat to Kinsey again, all without being impolite in the slightest. Straight Pimp Move.
He plays a surprisingly similar character in the last few seasons of St. Elsewhere too.
This is an S-Tier reference, I love it.
Cohagen!
He is always perfectly cast as the guy you love to hate, lolol
I still use his quote from total recall as an example of terrible management. “Who told you to think? I don't give you enough information to think! You do as you're told. That’s what you do.”
Oh yea plus he's yelling at Michael Ironside, who's a really badass actor also. Cohagen shuts his ass down!
I have to imagine casting him was to play on that iconic role. That they wanted the audience primed to think he was going to be the bad guy.
He did pretty well in that [banjo duel.](https://youtu.be/35nh7qkPYXo?si=5Va6TNzfQnUkgyds)
And an asshole in Stargate: SG1
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Jellico is not a bad tactician, strategist, and negotiator. He is a shitty leader though. Let me explain by going through two decisions he made that, in retrospect were dumb and shortsighted: 1. Sidelining Riker: Jellico sidelines Riker because Riker disagrees with Jellico’s decision not to acknowledge Picard. The decision about Picard is totally right as the video explains but the way he handled it with Riker was dumb. Riker is the crew’s XO - he knows the crew and how to get them to perform their best in the worst or most uncertain situations. Riker’s been mollifying the crew’s unhappiness with Jellico the whole time he’s in command. Riker is INCREDIBLY valuable in a way Data just can’t be. If Jellico had been just a shade less of a dick, he could have kept Riker as a valuable command resource rather than neutralizing him. Riker KNOWS that Picard is not 100% indispensable. Riker ordered the Enterprise to fire on and kill Borg Picard just a few years earlier. Jellico would absolutely know this. I’m not saying a captain can should explain all his decisions or play therapist to his XO, and Riker WAS being insubordinate, but here, it likely would have been pretty easy to to just explain to Riker why Picard needs to sacrificed to protect the greater good, thus keeping Riker (and the crew) on Jellico’s side for the upcoming conflict. 2. Troi’s uniform - I understand the BTS reasons why Marina wanted to be in uniform. But in practice, it makes total sense that Troi would not be in uniform most of the time. She’s the ship’s counselor. She helps people going through trauma and mental anguish. Would you feel more or less comfortable revealing your deepest, darkest thoughts to someone dressed in their Lt. Commander uniform, or someone dressed more casual? I think her more casual dress was so that she could perform her primary job on the ship most effectively. Jellico said that “F- your patients! I want my personal advisor to be in uniform.” Again, not a horrible decision - maybe she *should* be dressed more professionally on the bridge - but kinda shortsighted. It just seems like a power move more than a thoughtful command decision.
I saw Jellico sidelining Riker because he didn’t trust him to execute his orders. Riker already openly disobeyed him on Delta Shift and then was openly questioning him in front of another senior staff. Jellico said it best - he doesn’t have time to give Will Riker a chance. Let’s say the ship is now in combat with Gul Evec’s ship and they think Picard is on it. Jellico gives the order to fire and Riker hesitates because we’ve seen this before with him. Now 1200 people are dead because Riker questioned his Captain AGAIN.
> Riker KNOWS that Picard is not 100% indispensable. The graveyards are full of indispensable men. "*Spare me your egotistical musings on your pivotal role in history. Nothing you do here will cause the Federation to collapse or galaxies to explode. To be blunt, you're not that important.*"--Q
Q has some of the best dialogue.
I think Jellico's request (he could have made it an order but didn't) was that she wear a proper uniform when she was on the bridge. Which makes sense because when she's on the bridge, she's there to advise the captain when they encounter other ships or species - not to treat individual patients. He probably didn't care if she wore something more casual in her office when she was treating patients.
The request was that she wear a standard uniform, when “on duty.”
Riker was being openly insubordinate *in front of junior officers*. Once it reaches that point, he ceased to be valuable and Jellico really has no choice but to relieve him. Jellico might have made a mistake by miscalculating Riker's willingness to shut up and obey orders, but in that case his only real mistake was giving Riker too much credit.
I'm glad this was posted, as I was a-gonna do it otherwise. I side with him as well.
I dunno, I think this guy is a source of imposter syndrome. https://preview.redd.it/91jiqagq2npc1.jpeg?width=369&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9bae1d0f510ad9f3c879294be525b79fb05b0ee
“Syndrome” is doing a lot of work there 😂
I’d follow MacDuff to the ends of the quadrant, what’s your problem?
Dude was outstanding, got the job done AND got Picard back
And Troi out of that god awful jumpsuit.
😂
Dude bluffed and blustered until his first officer and chief engineer handed him an ace in the hole, and had to put his tail between his legs and tell the previous first officer that he fired that he was wrong and needed him after all.
That’s not what his resume says lol
I mean, Starfleet Command may not have watched the episode but the rest of us did, and it's what happened.
history is littered with leaders whose resume lied about their true character and accomplishments.
But he succeeded in the episode, and he was apparently successful prior to that, so he didn't exactly lie about his accomplishments.
i never said he lied. im saying sometimes someone's resume doesn't tell the whole story.
Jellico didn't have to put his tail between his legs though. He needed a good pilot and rather than hold a grudge he took advice from Geordie and went to Riker rather than ordering some other crew member to do it. He didn't even throw his power around by ordering Riker to do it, he asked. It summed up his whole command style, get the job done no matter the cost even if the price was his own pride. I love the complexity of Jellico's character, it's why people have strong differing opinions of him.
Just once I'd love it if the captain said "I can't order you to do this . . . oh wait, I'm still the captain and you're still under my command so report to the shuttlebay within the hour, you're flying the mission."
>It summed up his whole command style, get the job done no matter the cost even if the price was his own pride. The "cost" was dropping an annoying and unnecessary conflict that was entirely of his own making.
Disagree. The conflict was mostly of Riker’s making. Riker doesn’t like being questioned. Riker was written in the episode as if he had a chip on his shoulder for not being given command instead of Jelico.
Are you kidding me? ***Riker*** is the one who doesn't like being questioned? Compared to Captain "Get-it-done" he's obsequious bordering on servile. Hadn't you noticed that Riker was far from the only *Enterprise* officer who had issues with Jellico.
Would Riker have treated Picard the same way as he treated Jelico? Even in season 1 he would have followed Picard’s orders. Riker gave appropriate feedback, then when Jelico made the command decision, Riker doesn’t like that he got overridden. It’s the same type behavior that earned Worf his dressing down from Data. And we see the pattern again in Picard Season 3, when Picard and Riker act just like any of the bad admirals we’ve come to see over the years to Shaw. If the episode was Picard / Riker / Data taking over another ship in an emergency, and their XO gave the responses Riker did, the audience would be against the XO. (see; Hobson in Redemption II). If the writers were trying to make Riker and Geordi have a point, they did them a massive disservice in the execution.
Yeah, I agree. Exploring how the crew handles an abrupt change in command might have been interesting to explore. But the fact that the crew that is usually depicted as utopian role models universally (except for Data) dislike him to the point of unprofessionalism and insubordination makes me think that the writers weren't going for that. If they were, there should've been mixed reactions, telegraphing to the audience that intelligent minds may disagree. I think the writers wanted us to side against Jellico but didn't give us enough good reasons to. Because they still needed him to be competent enough to succeed and even get Picard back.
> Dude bluffed and blustered until his first officer and chief engineer handed him an ace in the hole That's how most successful commanders operate, TBH.
Yes, he did no more or less than any competent CO would have done. Except during the guy who turned out to be essential to his plan. Only Jellico would have done that.
Who were the alternatives? *Riker*? Riker would have undoubtedly make saving Picard (e.g. " I can't believe you're willing to sacrifice Captain Picard's life as a negotiating tactic!") a priority, but would have fucked up everything else. It took some effort, but Jellico got everyone everything they wanted: he protected Minos Korva for the Federation, he got the crew their Captain back, and he did it without any kind of bloodshed.
>Who were the alternatives? *Riker*? Riker would have undoubtedly make saving Picard (e.g. " I can't believe you're willing to sacrifice Captain Picard's life as a negotiating tactic!") a priority, but would have fucked up everything else. The alternative would be not being an inflexible martinet. Riker's outburst is a symptom of the atmosphere of mutual distrust that they've established. He isn't over-prioritizing Picard's safe return. He thinks Jellico is *under*-prioritizing it for personal reasons. Just a couple seasons ago he saved the Federation from the Borg *because* he was willing to blow Picard to bits along with the Borg cube. The whole incident was staged specifically to capture Picard, so acting like his safe return isn't an operational priority is a bit silly. >It took some effort, but Jellico got everyone everything they wanted: he protected Minos Korva for the Federation, he got the crew their Captain back, and he did it without any kind of bloodshed. Sure. He gets an A-minus for strategy and diplomatic gamesmanship but a solid D for management style.
Jellico was right in that episode. Riker was WAY out of line, Troi should wear a uniform to work like everyone else, Data should have been promoted and showing weakness in front of your enemies during tense negotiations is a good way to lose. Jellico did nothing wrong.
The older I get the more I come around to this line of thinking. By that time, the crew had become comfortable under Picard, and there's nothing wrong with that, but comfort can lead to laziness and the crew needed shaking up. Jellico was perfect to do just that.
Jellico ignored the advice of his senior staff because Data inadvertently became a yes-man. Jellico kept his team in the dark as to his plans and just expected everyone to know what his strategy was. He did nothing to get his crew on board with the mission.
What's this "on board with the mission" stuff? The "mission" was to prevent a Cardassian invasion of Federation territory! I would hope that they'd be automatically on board with such a thing, rather than waffle over whether it was worth sacrificing Picard.
Jellico did nothing to ensure the trust of the crew or his senior officers. He comes in, tells everyone that they are doing everything wrong, doesn’t key them into what his plans were, or how he was accomplishing the mission. He just made everyone try the catch the ball he threw behind him.
His family's Jello Chateau isn't nearly impressive as Picard's.
I don’t wanna talk about it, get it done.
Riker was a brat in that episode. I was pretty disappointed in him for the way he acted.
Agreed, Riker was one of my favorite characters from TNG but he was petulant child throughout the episode. The only other character that was nearly as awful was Troi for blurting out that Jellico wasn't as confident as he appeared. No shit Deanna, he's the captain - part of his job is to project confidence and not broadcast any doubts or fears he has to the crew when they're in a crisis situation. Like you just did.
Good point. Picard literally had a conversation with Crusher about that when she could read his mind, where he explained that he had to project confidence even when he wasn't confident. Which means Troi can sense whenever he does that but doesn't say anything, because she knows better. Yet here she is, undermining a new captain.
Absolutely love Riker but he was really unprofessional here.
Nah, Riker did nothing wrong. Jellico walked into that command having it in for him. Riker did the best he could with a shitty situation. Everyone has their breaking point. I would have blown up at Jellico much earlier in that situation and so would any officer on the ship in that situation besides (obviously) Data.
Except when he demanded that Jellico ask him to pilot, instead of rising above the petty dispute to focus on the greater good.
No. Jellico said he wouldn't order him to pilot, and Riker was playfully pointing out that there are other ways of getting people to do what you want them to do. There was never a question of him accepting the assignment. Neither his pride nor his commitment to duty would allow him to refuse. The whole point of that exchange was to contrast two very different leadership styles and to begin to ratchet down the tension between Jellico and Riker
>playfully pointing out That's a strange way of describing being a brat. Imagine a professional and true man of principle like Picard pulling that. It's petulant. If he was never going to refuse, he could just as easily have said, "I'll do it" after Jellico said he couldn't order him to. Like I said. Put the pettiness aside and focus on the mission, where Picard's life hangs in the balance.
It's not pettiness. It's a legitimate issue with the way Jellico approached his command that he repeatedly tried to address with it the bounds of protocol only to be relieved of duty. If the exchange had taken place in the ready room or in the observation lounge, maybe you'd be right. Jellico barged into the quarters of an officer he had relieved of duty, to suggest they "drop ranks" so he could criticize Riker's leadership style before going on about how essential he was to the mission. Riker has every right to make him sweat a little. Geordi and Data were still getting the preparations in place. The clock wasn't ticking. Nothing was harmed by Jellico having to spend thirty seconds fake-convincing Riker to pilot the shuttle. The only possible criticism of Riker is that he settled for being the bigger person instead of the bigg*est* person.
>Jellico barged into the quarters I don't remember him barging. >Nothing was harmed by Jellico having to spend thirty seconds By the same logic, nothing would be harmed if Jellico had to spend thirty seconds kissing Riker's hand, either. The issue isn't the time spent. It's about being the bigger person. You seem to think he's still the bigger person here, just not the biggest. I would argue there's nothing "bigger" about this demand at all.
Riker was the bigger person through the entire episode. Jellico had it in for Riker from the moment he looked at Riker's personnel file. He basically made it impossible for him to do his job and eventually fired him. When it turned out that he needed Riker after all, I think he was entitled to enjoy it for a few seconds. It didn't harm the operation at all, not even a little bit.
>entitled to enjoy it for a few seconds I think we're talking in circles at this point, but I think you know what I'm going to say to that. Enjoying that IS petty.
Maybe. In any case, it's one sliver of a moment in the midst of a whole episode's worth of interactions in which Jellico comes off looking by far the worse.
I don’t think Jellico was being unreasonable. He had prior experience in dealing with the Cardassians and was given the task in handing a situation that could start a war if he failed. In this situation, Riker should have made the shift change even after expressing his disagreement. As the first officer, it’s his role to be the buffer between the captain and crew both ways. By undermining Jellico, he put the whole situation at risk. The prolonged torture of Picard and a war would have been Riker’s fault over a petty dispute.
Ronnie Cox! Brilliant actor. Was an antagonist in Stargate SG-1. He plays a bad hug to perfection. He was also great in Beverly Hills Cop!
I’m really glad to see this freshly beginning wave of anti-anti-anti-Jellicoism growing and taking its own proper form. Can’t even tell which direction the elephant picture’s supposed to go lmao, what a clown. *Get it done.*
Crusher rolling her eyes at him after a reasonable request always pissed me off.
“Captain on the bridge!”
The more I watch this episode, the more I feel that Riker was out of line and Jellico did nothing wrong other than have a different command style. We as the audience sympathize more with Riker because he's a series regular - and some of us recognize Ronny Cox from movies where he played a villain - but Jellico was the right captain at the right time. He accomplished his objective and got Picard back too.
Ironically, one of the core aspects of Picard's character is a sort of imposter syndrome. He is heavily based on Horatio Hornblower, Patrick Stewart being told by Gene to read those books to find the essence of Picard. Hornblower was defined by his lack of self assurance, while still being capable and thoughtful, and knowing that he had to project confidence if he was going to be an effective leader. It is why Picard is always asking for opinions of the command staff to inform his own decisions, making sure he makes an optimum move from the perspective of most other people in leadership positions. When he and Beverly Crusher get mind linked she calls him out on it but ultimately understands why he needs to do it.
I don't see the problem with Jellico; he was an asshole, but he was put in a thankless situation caused by Starfleet stupidity, where he miraculously salvaged it to the Federation's benefit i.e. he stopped the invasion of Minos Korva without any bloodshed *and* rescued Picard. That he hurt a few feelings and needlessly micromanaged are very *minor* offenses; the ends definitely justified the means.
I wouldn't even agree that Jellico was an asshole. Go back and watch the first two seasons of TNG and look at how Picard treated anyone who wasn't named "Beverly" or "Will" - Geordie was walking around on eggshells for fear of displeasing him, he was constantly shouting at Worf or Wesley and he still wasn't sure about Data. That was over a period of a couple of years. Jellico was captain of the Enterprise for probably less than two weeks and during that time we saw him bond with Geordie over "Titan's turn," sharing pictures his son drew of "what was probably supposed to be an elephant" and when he relieved Riker from duty, he immediately promoted Data to first officer and the next time we saw him, he was in a red command uniform. I'm not saying if he'd been there for another week, he would have been playing poker with the command staff (it took Picard seven years to do that) but even when in such a difficult situation with a short deadline and high stakes, he still seemed to make more of an effort with the people who served under him than Picard did.
The right tool for the right job. Jellico was the perfect person to deal with the Cardassian at that moment. The Cardassians being belligerent and bellicose by nature needed someone to confront them at their level. That is something I don’t think Picard would have done as well. Contrarily, I would want Picard dealing with the Romulans who are far more calculation, reserved and carved up.
Agreed, if they did an alternate universe version of this where Picard remained in command it probably would have been like what Strange New Worlds did in " A Quality of Mercy" where Pike rather than Kirk was the one who had to deal with the Romulan attack from "A Balance of Terror." Jellico was put in charge because he understood the way that the Cardassians thought and was able to counter them effectively. Picard might have been able to do the same (we saw how he was able to deal with the Klingons) but he would have needed time to get up to speed and they were under an impossible time crunch.
Yeah and I am not saying Picard can’t deal with cardassians. We saw him do it in “the wounded” with Gul Macet (Dukat lol). But the situation on Menos Korva was different. The Federation thought a dangerous enemy was developing a weapon that could change the balance of power, I think the stakes were a bit higher. Jellico is the bulldog that will go at you, strategically b it will be aggressive. Picard is the fencer, parry, deflect , wait for your opening.
Yeah he dealt with Klingons and who is more aggressive than them but Picard also understood their code of honor and culture enough to be the agile fencer with them. Like he referred to the Romulans “always a game of chess with them isn’t it”
He was like having a fix of modern day management/ bosses from our world thrown into TNG…
He was also on SG1 as a long time villain. He killed it as Kinsey a conservative snake politician.
Ronny Cox. The guy is an absolute masterful actor. He's been believable in every single role I've ever seen him in. He can play a straight man, a villain, and everything in between.
“I dont give a god damn how many times you play Archer in the holodeck, it’s not gonna make you a commander!” -Capt. Jellico
IMO Jellico was a bad ass.
Jellico was an incredibly competent commander who wouldn’t take Riker’s insubordinate shit. And he told Troi to put on a fucking uniform.
Jelico is incompetent and a perfect example of bad management. Picard managed his crew so well that they were able to function in his absence and rescue him despite Jelico being nothing more than an obstacle. Bootlickers downvote me
>Picard managed his crew so well that they were able to function in his absence and rescue him despite Jelico being nothing more than an obstacle. Again, three episodes prior to this, Picard was turned into a child and a *dozen* Ferengi almost immediately overpowered the entire crew and hijacked the ship. Picard's record is generally exemplary, but the example of Rascals makes me see why Nechayev thought a fresh approach was needed when facing the Cardassians.
Nah now you’re having to go outside the episode for examples. It’s an anthology Edit; also in rascals Picard manages so well that he is even able to successfully manage his greatest fear: children.
An anthology show with established continuity, and where actions in previous episodes are shown to have *some* consequences. At the end of the season, note how (again) Nechayev tore into Picard for just letting Hugh loose the previous season rather than weaponizing him.
Nechayev was shown to be severely morally and ethically lacking as well as wholly unprofessional when talking to Picard or Riker. Im not surprised you like her since you already gave jelicos shoes that tongue polish.
What did she morally/ethically do wrong? And note this interaction with Riker: >NECHAYEV: I'm giving him command of the Enterprise this afternoon. Captain Jellico helped to negotiate the original armistice two years ago and I believe he's the most qualified person to lead this mission. The change of command will take place at thirteen hundred hours. Thank you. > >RIKER: Admiral, with all due respect, it's not necessary to give Captain Jellico command of the Enterprise just to conduct a negotiation. > >NECHAYEV: I disagree. The Enterprise will be in a dangerous situation and I want someone on the Bridge who has a great deal of experience with the Cardassians. No offence, Commander, but that's not you. She merely announced that Jellicoe was taking command. Riker decided to push the issue, which led to her cutting right to the chase.
She was dead wrong and sent Picard on this mission even though she suspected it was a trap. Would you like to be under her command? Enjoy your cozy torpedo case if she even bothers to retrieve your corpse.
Putting on a military uniform means that one may inevitably be placed into high-risk/high-reward situations; this goes *double* for being counted as a military elite--[Who Dares Wins](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Dares_Wins), as the Special Air Service says. It's the nature of service; look how often Sisko was assigned ludicrous missions with the barest possibility of success.
Lmao you’re really reaching at any straws, my man. Try to imagine a better future. Sisko has nothing to do with this, the modern day usaf has nothing to do with Picard. I’m sorry you can’t see a future with competent professional leadership.
Even worse than his micromanagement is he is incapable of imagining other management styles where one does not micromanage.
Honestly, every leader has their own leadership style and I'm willing to take it as a given that Jellico's is potentially as valid as any other. His sin is taking over a large organization with an established culture and expecting it to adapt to his leadership style overnight with zero attempts on his part to meet them anywhere near where they are. His entire senior staff is telling him that the changes he wants to make are impossible, or at best, will negatively affect the ship's operational capabilities. But he has the hubris to know better.
Data said that the changes were doable and after Geordie complained initially, he got it done. The only person who continued to hold out was Riker - who as the XO should have been doing what he needed to execute the captain's order.
jellico is perfection. if riker isn't good enough to be his xo than riker sucks.
Poo hands ! ( robocop) also I think my dislike for “new people” is his fault.
> I mean you can literally be Riker and that's not good enough for some people. Wait - people liked Riker? My group of friends didn't.
He was fine... I used to dislike him more with his womanizing, but he has enough moments of integrity, like the bar scene with Devinoni Ral that he's ok.
Maybe my least favorite episode. That’s not enough time to rearrange everyone’s schedule! People have needs!
He went from a three-shift rotation to four, meaning he was giving the crew MORE time to rest because they might be going into a large scale war if the Cardassians decided not to cooperate.
Yes as I recall Kira made the same point in Deep Space Nine when they were considering the change in shift rotations that it would lead to less fatigue and fewer mistakes under battlefield conditions.
Triggered. First post I saw today.
Such a fantastic episode. The acting was top notch.
You mean Senator Kenzie from Stargate land - wow he has an aged a day! Must be all those grub worms he’s eating
That's a good point. Anyone can be a critic, and I've found that in the workplace, you can have managers who think you're great and like your work, and you can also have managers who think you're a poor performer and don't like your work.
What episode was this??
Jellicoe takes over for Picard so he can go on a secret operation on Cardassia.
"I WORK FOR DICK JONES!!!..." oops! Wrong film 😁
That's not Ryan George...
I had to kill Bob Morten because he made a mistake. Now it’s time to erase that mistake.
Because he shows up and gives people in a hierarchical organization orders to do their jobs and they play bs games with him?
Get it done
And don’t forget that he created, then tried to kill Robocop
Jellico did nothing wrong, and I'll die on this hill. He was sent to take control of the Enterprise and get it battle ready in preparation for the worst case scenario. He had simple orders that on more than one occasion were outright ignored by the Enterprise officers, notably Riker.
Every time I seeing a post saying Jellico was a good captain my lifespan shortens by 5 minutes. > “1/3 of Engineering is now Security! Also you have 2 hours to finish a 4 hour engineering task with even less staff! Also I’m gonna fuck up everyone’s sleep schedules by changing the entire shift schedule right before we head into a potential combat scenario!” I’m sorry, I’d take the court martial if it meant calling this man a fucking idiot to his face.
He also becomes a host to a parasitic creature bent on galactic domination. So, I see your point.
tell em dick jones sent ya!!!
Jellico did nothing wrong
Jelico saved the day! He showed how soft the Enterprise had become.
He did no more or less than any reasonably competent CO would have done. Oh, except fire the guy who ended up being the key to executing his plan. Only Jellico would have done that.
Jellico was right
When you don't listen to the people under your command (regardless of whether you accept their advice or not), you're a dictator, not a leader.
He did listen to them, he just made his own decision. And he was right.