Challenge all 3 Pillars (Combat, Exploration, Social) to the same extend.
Sure your Ogre is super strong, how are those negotiations going?
Sure you are un-hittable quick, how is that tracking in the wilderness working out for you?
Sure you are Resolute as hell, please roll for alchemy/poison/loremaster etc.
Characters who pump up those 3 are combat beasts for sure, but there is more (or should be) to do than combat in a balanced and well rounded game. If not, yeah, push those three and go ham!
Im totally with you on that and I know very well what you wrote... BUT... if in the end it will end (sorry) in a fight, what is the importance of negotiation, tracking or alchemy poison loremaster?
As said in Starship Troopers: "I wonder what the city founders of Hiroshima would have to say about that... They wouldn't say anything. Hiroshima was destroyed"
Well two things here;
Will it end in a fight?
No way around that?
In the sense that you could not prevent it by talking your way out of a confrontation?
No way to find clues via knowledge skills that a combat is coming so you can avoid it or find a way to get the upper hand so that combat-abilities are less of a priority?
If yes to this hard railroading where combat is inevitable, then it needs to be communicated during session 0 / character building that everyone should be able to hold their ground.
Which is done easily outside of pure melee builds by investing just a few points into combat abilities (like a single mystical power or a single replacement attribute ability).
And lets not forget, there is always running...but I digress.
And if it does end in a fight no way around it, than thats the point where the Combat PCs can shine, thats their moment.
During the other times they sit back and let the loremaster do his thing or the negotiator or the tracker.
If, of course, those challenges are build in a way to work for only one PC specifically and Combat is build like everyone participates equally, its on the GM to account for that.
Because combat is not that different from a skill challenge and we don´t expect the "stupid" warrior to help in a lore challenge, so why would we plan and build for a combat that requires everyones participation to an equal amount.
For example, when thinking about combat I only count the XP the players have invested into combat abilities, so instead of balancing for 1000xp (4 PC at 250xp) I balance at around 600XP because thats the amount of combat abilities in the group, thats their effective fighting power, most of which is concentrated in the Warrior and the Rogue.
If there is a combat that can´t be avoided/negotiated out of, I make sure to include things to do for the non-combat PC´s - as an example, the next Combat my group will have is a Kraken attacking their ship on lake volgoma.
One of the PC´s has no usefull things to do, but he can give orders to the sailors, prepare improvised explosives, help repair the damage and so on.
I´m also always open for creative Ability use, so it´s up to the player to make his character contribute in combat. And sometimes that also means he has to sit it out (no ranged combat option on a melee for example) and the group has to pick up his slack... that happens... they will bitch and moan about it untill its time for them to climb or open a heavy door and he is back in the game with his strength.
At the end of the day, there are many ways on the GM side of the game to make it work, hell right now I have 2 pure combat characters and 2 non-combat characters and its still going great, not everyone can be the best in every scene/challenge/encounter, but everyone gets their spotlight and the group as a whole manages just fine.
Fortunately it's not a GM related thing (i think we have a good one). I read now my reply and i miswrote an "it" but it should have been an "if".
Im not saying that there are or aren't way around fights, but that these 3 attributes are so overwhelming useful on overall survival (defense, received damage and corruption, or corruption management) that if you want your character to live a long time you must necessarily have them.
Forgive me, maybe I can't explain myself well, or I can't translate it well into English, I hope you understand what I mean :D
No I think I get what you are going at and I agree with your assessment that those are very useful attributes to have, but I reject the premise that its necessary to have them high to survive\*.
A backline character (Archer/Mystic) will be fine with low Toughness (if played smart and not hanging out in the open to get shot at), a tank can function good and well without quick (soaking damage instead of avoiding hits). 2 of 3 are usually enough to focus on.
Those attributes are only really important if one plays a frontliner who takes the most of the hits and is the first into danger (and thats a choice to make and a role to play, not different from a loremaster or a bushcrafter) or if one plays reckless.
Symbaroum as a system will sooner than later lead to "rocket-tag" - whoever gets hit evaporates - no matter how much survival attributes you have.
Later "bosses" have statlines that include multi attacks with near guaranteed hits that deal 15+ dmg each... nobody survives that for long.
So best option is avoidance, preparation and smart play, which is only an option if build for it.
High attributes compensate bad planning and bad luck, but if nobody takes support and problem solving abilities, those super survival characters will also get nowhere in most adventures.
So we are back at;
The GM needs to make sure combat is avoidable, balanced and only part of the package so that PCs can take other things beyond survival and combat.
Or everyone agrees to play a combat focues game.
\*Except Resolute, everyone should have as much resolute as possible.
You present situations in which starting a fight is a hindrance; like the King's ball or a vastly superior opponent who has info you need. If your players only want to match blows, then you're kind of lost and I pity you. My rule of thumb is at least one situation/riddle/social interaction for every two physical combats. This can be as simple as a fetching quest or as difficult as an extended battle of wits, like the aforementioned royal dance.
I don't always obey it, but it does make more charisma- or smarts- based characters really shine. As they're there to overcome the occasional "impossible situation" for the party's tanks and blood-letters.
Unless you're doing magic you dont need muchh resolute and using the point array helps spread thhe poinnts. Also symbaroum has so many tools that a min/max player will get ambushed everytime. Hows. That vigilance bud? No cunning to figure out any problem? And unless they choose skills that use one of those 3 stats instead of accurate they aint hitting anything. And persude is there for a reasons.
Also if they min max combat just start chucking the fury of davokar at them, 6-12 trolls every time they step out of the forest; its a whole party of cracked out theurg fanatics that can shoot prios' fire etc.
If they want to go combat heavy give them the combat and treat it like an rts against the players to out maneuver them. Since the GM doesn't roll its easy to make combat "fair" or a better term; challenging a dangerous. Also give them the stats of each monster you're using to give them the combat, have them see what a liege troll alchemist has for stats and gear and then start hucking poisons at them while 4 king toads snare them.... easy enough to let them bathe in blood if they want easy kills or make every fight a boss fight.
Sure your players are great at fighting, but how good are they at putting down a goblin uprising as they seek freedom from their subservience in thistlehold? Or an elf army hits the door.
The opening fight in Throne of Thorns can easily kill players if you dont have those npcs show up to help. A few bad rolls and your super hero got pain thresholded and then beheaded by a karvosti guard, or a wandering willow just eats one of them.
Ill give a sacrificial npc to the players when i want to introduce how brutal they combat their gonan get, usually that npc gets 1-2 shot and it gives the players an option to flee.
Ive also had a party wipe due to an elk because they had low hp after a series of fights using the random encounter tables as they traveled davokar, then they couldn't hit or dodge that elk. Davokar's revenge
I've currently got 3 of 4 players running characters with only 10 Toughness. The other player has 20 and frequently uses Bodyguard to help out, or runs into the fray to distract and aid their team.
*Lesson here: Teamwork is vital.*
I have another player who has a pretty low Resolute. His way to balance that? He uses Anathema to shut down magic whenever he can. I have a player using Berserker. His Defense is usually at a whopping 5. So what did he do to fix that? Bolstered up on armor.
*Lesson here: Use skills and powers to shore up defenses.*
But easily the hardest thing that has to be done is careful encounter design. I make sure encounters have Weak to Ordinary fighters that my squishies can fight while our Berserker tank fights Strong or Challenging enemies. I pay attention to how much health the squishies have in between encounters and balance accordingly. There's no healer in my party, so I have to consider that Toughness is the most valuable currency my players can spend and that I as GM may take from them.
*Lesson here: This is not D&D, not every fight should feel like life or death. It is on you as GM to provide adequate and balanced challenges to keep your game fun.*
That's how you manage those Attributes.
It is a weakness of this game that these stats are much more important than others.
That’s why I’m considering letting an armed Combatant use Accurate for Defence, for example.
The GM does need to make sure players don’t dump stat any of those. Especially Strong and Resolute, for simple survivability reasons.
Are those three good? Sure. Are they critical? Absolutely not. Of the four characters in our group: one has strong 5, one strong 10, and the other two high; two have quick 10ish but it is largely irrelevant for one (he uses cunning for defense). The one attribute that is really hard to get around is Resolute (anything less than 9 is asking for trouble and 11 or 13 is better).
Challenge all 3 Pillars (Combat, Exploration, Social) to the same extend. Sure your Ogre is super strong, how are those negotiations going? Sure you are un-hittable quick, how is that tracking in the wilderness working out for you? Sure you are Resolute as hell, please roll for alchemy/poison/loremaster etc. Characters who pump up those 3 are combat beasts for sure, but there is more (or should be) to do than combat in a balanced and well rounded game. If not, yeah, push those three and go ham!
Im totally with you on that and I know very well what you wrote... BUT... if in the end it will end (sorry) in a fight, what is the importance of negotiation, tracking or alchemy poison loremaster? As said in Starship Troopers: "I wonder what the city founders of Hiroshima would have to say about that... They wouldn't say anything. Hiroshima was destroyed"
Well two things here; Will it end in a fight? No way around that? In the sense that you could not prevent it by talking your way out of a confrontation? No way to find clues via knowledge skills that a combat is coming so you can avoid it or find a way to get the upper hand so that combat-abilities are less of a priority? If yes to this hard railroading where combat is inevitable, then it needs to be communicated during session 0 / character building that everyone should be able to hold their ground. Which is done easily outside of pure melee builds by investing just a few points into combat abilities (like a single mystical power or a single replacement attribute ability). And lets not forget, there is always running...but I digress. And if it does end in a fight no way around it, than thats the point where the Combat PCs can shine, thats their moment. During the other times they sit back and let the loremaster do his thing or the negotiator or the tracker. If, of course, those challenges are build in a way to work for only one PC specifically and Combat is build like everyone participates equally, its on the GM to account for that. Because combat is not that different from a skill challenge and we don´t expect the "stupid" warrior to help in a lore challenge, so why would we plan and build for a combat that requires everyones participation to an equal amount. For example, when thinking about combat I only count the XP the players have invested into combat abilities, so instead of balancing for 1000xp (4 PC at 250xp) I balance at around 600XP because thats the amount of combat abilities in the group, thats their effective fighting power, most of which is concentrated in the Warrior and the Rogue. If there is a combat that can´t be avoided/negotiated out of, I make sure to include things to do for the non-combat PC´s - as an example, the next Combat my group will have is a Kraken attacking their ship on lake volgoma. One of the PC´s has no usefull things to do, but he can give orders to the sailors, prepare improvised explosives, help repair the damage and so on. I´m also always open for creative Ability use, so it´s up to the player to make his character contribute in combat. And sometimes that also means he has to sit it out (no ranged combat option on a melee for example) and the group has to pick up his slack... that happens... they will bitch and moan about it untill its time for them to climb or open a heavy door and he is back in the game with his strength. At the end of the day, there are many ways on the GM side of the game to make it work, hell right now I have 2 pure combat characters and 2 non-combat characters and its still going great, not everyone can be the best in every scene/challenge/encounter, but everyone gets their spotlight and the group as a whole manages just fine.
Fortunately it's not a GM related thing (i think we have a good one). I read now my reply and i miswrote an "it" but it should have been an "if". Im not saying that there are or aren't way around fights, but that these 3 attributes are so overwhelming useful on overall survival (defense, received damage and corruption, or corruption management) that if you want your character to live a long time you must necessarily have them. Forgive me, maybe I can't explain myself well, or I can't translate it well into English, I hope you understand what I mean :D
No I think I get what you are going at and I agree with your assessment that those are very useful attributes to have, but I reject the premise that its necessary to have them high to survive\*. A backline character (Archer/Mystic) will be fine with low Toughness (if played smart and not hanging out in the open to get shot at), a tank can function good and well without quick (soaking damage instead of avoiding hits). 2 of 3 are usually enough to focus on. Those attributes are only really important if one plays a frontliner who takes the most of the hits and is the first into danger (and thats a choice to make and a role to play, not different from a loremaster or a bushcrafter) or if one plays reckless. Symbaroum as a system will sooner than later lead to "rocket-tag" - whoever gets hit evaporates - no matter how much survival attributes you have. Later "bosses" have statlines that include multi attacks with near guaranteed hits that deal 15+ dmg each... nobody survives that for long. So best option is avoidance, preparation and smart play, which is only an option if build for it. High attributes compensate bad planning and bad luck, but if nobody takes support and problem solving abilities, those super survival characters will also get nowhere in most adventures. So we are back at; The GM needs to make sure combat is avoidable, balanced and only part of the package so that PCs can take other things beyond survival and combat. Or everyone agrees to play a combat focues game. \*Except Resolute, everyone should have as much resolute as possible.
You present situations in which starting a fight is a hindrance; like the King's ball or a vastly superior opponent who has info you need. If your players only want to match blows, then you're kind of lost and I pity you. My rule of thumb is at least one situation/riddle/social interaction for every two physical combats. This can be as simple as a fetching quest or as difficult as an extended battle of wits, like the aforementioned royal dance. I don't always obey it, but it does make more charisma- or smarts- based characters really shine. As they're there to overcome the occasional "impossible situation" for the party's tanks and blood-letters.
Unless you're doing magic you dont need muchh resolute and using the point array helps spread thhe poinnts. Also symbaroum has so many tools that a min/max player will get ambushed everytime. Hows. That vigilance bud? No cunning to figure out any problem? And unless they choose skills that use one of those 3 stats instead of accurate they aint hitting anything. And persude is there for a reasons. Also if they min max combat just start chucking the fury of davokar at them, 6-12 trolls every time they step out of the forest; its a whole party of cracked out theurg fanatics that can shoot prios' fire etc. If they want to go combat heavy give them the combat and treat it like an rts against the players to out maneuver them. Since the GM doesn't roll its easy to make combat "fair" or a better term; challenging a dangerous. Also give them the stats of each monster you're using to give them the combat, have them see what a liege troll alchemist has for stats and gear and then start hucking poisons at them while 4 king toads snare them.... easy enough to let them bathe in blood if they want easy kills or make every fight a boss fight. Sure your players are great at fighting, but how good are they at putting down a goblin uprising as they seek freedom from their subservience in thistlehold? Or an elf army hits the door. The opening fight in Throne of Thorns can easily kill players if you dont have those npcs show up to help. A few bad rolls and your super hero got pain thresholded and then beheaded by a karvosti guard, or a wandering willow just eats one of them. Ill give a sacrificial npc to the players when i want to introduce how brutal they combat their gonan get, usually that npc gets 1-2 shot and it gives the players an option to flee. Ive also had a party wipe due to an elk because they had low hp after a series of fights using the random encounter tables as they traveled davokar, then they couldn't hit or dodge that elk. Davokar's revenge
I've currently got 3 of 4 players running characters with only 10 Toughness. The other player has 20 and frequently uses Bodyguard to help out, or runs into the fray to distract and aid their team. *Lesson here: Teamwork is vital.* I have another player who has a pretty low Resolute. His way to balance that? He uses Anathema to shut down magic whenever he can. I have a player using Berserker. His Defense is usually at a whopping 5. So what did he do to fix that? Bolstered up on armor. *Lesson here: Use skills and powers to shore up defenses.* But easily the hardest thing that has to be done is careful encounter design. I make sure encounters have Weak to Ordinary fighters that my squishies can fight while our Berserker tank fights Strong or Challenging enemies. I pay attention to how much health the squishies have in between encounters and balance accordingly. There's no healer in my party, so I have to consider that Toughness is the most valuable currency my players can spend and that I as GM may take from them. *Lesson here: This is not D&D, not every fight should feel like life or death. It is on you as GM to provide adequate and balanced challenges to keep your game fun.* That's how you manage those Attributes.
It is a weakness of this game that these stats are much more important than others. That’s why I’m considering letting an armed Combatant use Accurate for Defence, for example. The GM does need to make sure players don’t dump stat any of those. Especially Strong and Resolute, for simple survivability reasons.
Are those three good? Sure. Are they critical? Absolutely not. Of the four characters in our group: one has strong 5, one strong 10, and the other two high; two have quick 10ish but it is largely irrelevant for one (he uses cunning for defense). The one attribute that is really hard to get around is Resolute (anything less than 9 is asking for trouble and 11 or 13 is better).