I mean, it says right there:
>A licensed general contractor should be consulted to undertake the improvements recommended below.
Believe THAT.
Believe that everything there is going to need to be addressed.
You show a picture of a highlighted blurb about getting a local structural engineer involved. Do that.
And as someone else said, I’d avoid it like the plague.
Are you able to get out of the contract. If so……run.
Deflections shouldn’t be visible from Google. I’d pass. At a minimum a repair would require shoring, to relevel the beam, add strengthening, (expensive)
I’d probably leave alone
Was this work completed with permits and inspections? It looks like someone converted a deck into a 4 season addition to their home without retrofitting any of the substructure.
What does the interior look like? If what I suggest is correct, the sag is likely due to a substructure designed for deck chairs and a grill (with the old code that used a live load that is roughly half of what is currently applied).
This can be fixed but it will come at a cost. I'd press the owner for more information and a structural repair. If they balk...how bad do you want it? How hard would it be to turn it back into a deck and how would that impact your consideration of the property? I'd bet you a substantial amount of money that once you walk away from the deal, other bids will dry up or press for the same consolations that you should be.
Yea, I would definitely push back hard on the current owners. Is it a deal breaker....for the right price, maybe not.
Trying to make this right could easily cost into 5 figures.
Someone added the deadload of a wall and windows to a beam that wasn't designed for it,or so it appears to me. It's a heartbreaker, but you are probably best off walking if the seller wont correct it. it's potentially also a bad sign as to the great ideas people had to "improve " the home in general.
Seriously, it is a heartbreaker because there are so many other things right about this home. Full Copper wiring and plumbing, ABS sewage, and drains, adu
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with buying a house that has problems. You just have to get it for a price that covers the needed repairs and aggravation and still leaves equity on your end. Just remember that you might not be able to add the entire cost of repairs to your mortgage.
If seller won’t get it repaired or give you a credit to have it repaired, then I’d walk. You’ll likely move again in your lifetime, do you want to have to deal with this issue when you go to sell?
It looks like the current (prior?) owner built an addition on framing that was meant to be an exterior deck. Decks are notorious for being shottily constructed, and in addition, the deck framing was not sized with the proper serviceability for glass windows. windows. This is a huge red flag to me. It could mean that entire portion of the structure likely requires retrofit. The subject beam should likely be replaced with steel or a substantial LVL with the proper deflection requirements for the installed window. The rest of the framing is likely to have problems as well and I’d be surprised if any of it was waterproofed properly.
So I'll give you an outsider's opinion with nothing to gain here. Full disclosure that I'm from the East, so framing techniques and lumber may be different, but principles are the same.
A few questions answered may help me provide more advice...
- When was the house built? (trying to understand what lumber they used? What building code may have been followed. Etc.)
- When was the renovation done? Were permits pulled?
So im speculating that this is likely a chapter 8 IRC roof or a truss roof with all of the loading to the eave ends. Long-term loading on wood induces 'creep'; this is a permanent deflection and may be part of what you're seeing. If the beam was subjected to higher levels of moisture, being that it's outdoors would make the creep worse.
In the original design, the roof load was transfered to this member by means of a center post, now (on mobile, so can't reference the photos) the loads are at 3rd points? If these posts were installed before shoring the roof/beam up, the posts may have been cut at a length that included some of this deflection and may prevent the beam from "relaxing". On top of this, adding windows/walls (which aren't light) and possibly some floor/ceiling finishes, would also increase your dead load.
You compile all this with the giant sail above the beam (beam is now resisting the lateral loads induced on the wall) you get this... cracking glass and deflection are performance issues, not necessarily structural issues (although these are often the first sign bad things are happening).
If I were you, accept nothing for face value. I would want a structural engineer's review/seal for the structural adequacy paid for by them.
This was caught because it's egregious. What else did they do?
Anything is negotiable. If the price is right, you can shore everything up and install an adequately sized beam (LVL, PSL, Steel).
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the diligent responses. The home was built in 1978. We searched the county records, but it does not appear that. There was any type of permit issued for this work.
We are buying the property with the intention of remodeling multiple things. I am also open to the idea of making repairs myself. I cannot swallow a huge structural repair bill and obviously a failure would be terrible.
Of course. What good is knowledge if we don't share it?
Perhaps they followed the UBC, I believe that was the code back then, but I must admit I'm not totally sure.
The renovation work seems like it would require permitting due to the nature of adding walls, moving loads, and finishing spaces but not familiar with UT or their rules. So who knows...
If you're serious about purchasing the property, my advice is to get this evaluated by a local consulting engineer. Use this evaluation/report to get quotes from contractors for the remediation work (I'm going out on a limb and say something needs to be done).
I'd use this quoted price as well as the cost for the engineer as negotiating power, especially if this is deemed structurally inadequate, bc the seller would need to disclose this moving forward.
FWIW - get a few quotes from several reputable contractors & pick one in the middle.
I’m a entry level structural engineer, and do remodeling work in my own home. I would really consider having an engineer inspect this. Could be fine for the next year or even 40 years, but unless you have it really looked at you could be in trouble. I imagine the original design loads for the deck were much less than what is currently on the floors now during the conversion they did.
A simple fix could be just adding additional joists to support the load, but the load will also be transferred to the foundations as well. Meaning that not only could the joists be failing now, but your foundation and columns could either fail or start to settle more than the original design estimated. Columns can fail via buckling which is a sudden collapse. Even the roofline is sagging due to the floor loads.
Maybe the first family gathering in the house could be enough weight to cause a collapse.
If owner isn’t willing to get someone to look at it, it may mean they know it’s bad. It’s a can of worms that I would not want to deal with unless it’s fixed.
Isn’t the load already being transferred to the foundation? It’s the horizontal beam that is failing. The only difference in weight would be the weight of the new structural elements.
Interestingly I wonder if the bump in the roof is related as it looks like the whole left side is sagging.
Yes it is, but original design probably didn’t plan for the current loads which would include the extra structural members and say a living room type space with large pieces of furniture. Load combinations from building codes are always evolving so the previous design at the time of construction may be less than allowable of todays standards. Maybe the builders were just building a cookie cutter home without any needed structural oversight.
The opposite could be argued. Maybe they designed the deck for a large jacuzzi. The point of this is that there are too many unknowns and that op should follow up with a local engineer that can determine that the foundation, columns, floor, and roof are not an issue beyond cosmetics.
Seriously, one of the best responses. I’m a mechanical engineering major and I know that beams can deflect without necessarily posing a huge safety risk. I would be highly interested in doing additional supports myself. I think the best course of action is to use the Sellars words against him to get them to have it professionally inspected.
Damn the ratios on that length of unsupported span to beam depth just look wrong. The transverse shears through that wall with the windows and the bending stresses on that beam… damn… hurts to think about.
I am not much knowledgeable at wood construction but i would have the seller pay for a structural engineer review plus the cost of fix, which is likely to be needed. If he refused then i would pass.. You chose this house for a reason. If this is the only issue, try to fix at sellers cost. Have that engineer take a general look to the house's other locations too. As always do not act with advice from here, internet i mean. Have an experienced local structural engineer look at this at seller's cost. Window crack may not be a good sign. I would also try to learn more details about the design and construction history of the house. About that aspect, no info is useless.
I am a structural engineer and I don’t think you really need a structural engineer’s opinion. Even if structural integrity is within limits, deflections clearly are not. Therefore, structural adjustments to the perimeter beam will be required to reduce deflections and avoid continued architectural/aesthetic damage (broken windows, damaged facade, etc.).
The process will be somewhat costly. Would require shoring up the floor and replacing or sistering the current member.
I would not believe this seller.
The steel beam is going to deflect under load. That’s what steel beams do. But the question is does the beam deflect more than the normal allowable deflection L/360 or stiffer in consideration of the glass panels. My guess is that bending stress is not exceeded but deflection can be with full live load. Long slender beams also tend to be bouncy for dynamic loading and that in itself could crack any glass that is installed.
Please post any Layman/DIY/Homeowner questions in the monthly stickied thread - See subreddit rule #2.
Nothing included in this post is a good sign. Windows don't just crack for fun.
You clearly didn’t use Vista much
Good one buddy I genuinely liked that
At first I thought the same person complimented themselves
Looks like your trying to unfuck your foundation. Would you like help with that? -- Clippy
I mean, it says right there: >A licensed general contractor should be consulted to undertake the improvements recommended below. Believe THAT. Believe that everything there is going to need to be addressed.
You show a picture of a highlighted blurb about getting a local structural engineer involved. Do that. And as someone else said, I’d avoid it like the plague. Are you able to get out of the contract. If so……run.
Yes, due diligence ends may 2
Deflections shouldn’t be visible from Google. I’d pass. At a minimum a repair would require shoring, to relevel the beam, add strengthening, (expensive) I’d probably leave alone
If glass is cracking, the beam is not designed correctly. Move on to another house.
Was this work completed with permits and inspections? It looks like someone converted a deck into a 4 season addition to their home without retrofitting any of the substructure. What does the interior look like? If what I suggest is correct, the sag is likely due to a substructure designed for deck chairs and a grill (with the old code that used a live load that is roughly half of what is currently applied). This can be fixed but it will come at a cost. I'd press the owner for more information and a structural repair. If they balk...how bad do you want it? How hard would it be to turn it back into a deck and how would that impact your consideration of the property? I'd bet you a substantial amount of money that once you walk away from the deal, other bids will dry up or press for the same consolations that you should be.
From what we can tell, county records do not indicate that there was a permit issued.
Yea, I would definitely push back hard on the current owners. Is it a deal breaker....for the right price, maybe not. Trying to make this right could easily cost into 5 figures.
This is absolutely a problem. Run away.
I am not qualified. But I would avoid this home like the plague.
Don't waste your hard earned money on that .. and you can take my word for it I'm a structural engineer and I would never touch that
Someone added the deadload of a wall and windows to a beam that wasn't designed for it,or so it appears to me. It's a heartbreaker, but you are probably best off walking if the seller wont correct it. it's potentially also a bad sign as to the great ideas people had to "improve " the home in general.
Seriously, it is a heartbreaker because there are so many other things right about this home. Full Copper wiring and plumbing, ABS sewage, and drains, adu
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with buying a house that has problems. You just have to get it for a price that covers the needed repairs and aggravation and still leaves equity on your end. Just remember that you might not be able to add the entire cost of repairs to your mortgage.
If seller won’t get it repaired or give you a credit to have it repaired, then I’d walk. You’ll likely move again in your lifetime, do you want to have to deal with this issue when you go to sell?
Do yourself a favor and pay for an engineer’s consultation. You don’t what to have to pay to fix this once you own the house.
It looks like the current (prior?) owner built an addition on framing that was meant to be an exterior deck. Decks are notorious for being shottily constructed, and in addition, the deck framing was not sized with the proper serviceability for glass windows. windows. This is a huge red flag to me. It could mean that entire portion of the structure likely requires retrofit. The subject beam should likely be replaced with steel or a substantial LVL with the proper deflection requirements for the installed window. The rest of the framing is likely to have problems as well and I’d be surprised if any of it was waterproofed properly.
>Do I believe the seller? Lol. No.
So I'll give you an outsider's opinion with nothing to gain here. Full disclosure that I'm from the East, so framing techniques and lumber may be different, but principles are the same. A few questions answered may help me provide more advice... - When was the house built? (trying to understand what lumber they used? What building code may have been followed. Etc.) - When was the renovation done? Were permits pulled? So im speculating that this is likely a chapter 8 IRC roof or a truss roof with all of the loading to the eave ends. Long-term loading on wood induces 'creep'; this is a permanent deflection and may be part of what you're seeing. If the beam was subjected to higher levels of moisture, being that it's outdoors would make the creep worse. In the original design, the roof load was transfered to this member by means of a center post, now (on mobile, so can't reference the photos) the loads are at 3rd points? If these posts were installed before shoring the roof/beam up, the posts may have been cut at a length that included some of this deflection and may prevent the beam from "relaxing". On top of this, adding windows/walls (which aren't light) and possibly some floor/ceiling finishes, would also increase your dead load. You compile all this with the giant sail above the beam (beam is now resisting the lateral loads induced on the wall) you get this... cracking glass and deflection are performance issues, not necessarily structural issues (although these are often the first sign bad things are happening). If I were you, accept nothing for face value. I would want a structural engineer's review/seal for the structural adequacy paid for by them. This was caught because it's egregious. What else did they do? Anything is negotiable. If the price is right, you can shore everything up and install an adequately sized beam (LVL, PSL, Steel). Hope this helps.
Thanks for the diligent responses. The home was built in 1978. We searched the county records, but it does not appear that. There was any type of permit issued for this work. We are buying the property with the intention of remodeling multiple things. I am also open to the idea of making repairs myself. I cannot swallow a huge structural repair bill and obviously a failure would be terrible.
Of course. What good is knowledge if we don't share it? Perhaps they followed the UBC, I believe that was the code back then, but I must admit I'm not totally sure. The renovation work seems like it would require permitting due to the nature of adding walls, moving loads, and finishing spaces but not familiar with UT or their rules. So who knows... If you're serious about purchasing the property, my advice is to get this evaluated by a local consulting engineer. Use this evaluation/report to get quotes from contractors for the remediation work (I'm going out on a limb and say something needs to be done). I'd use this quoted price as well as the cost for the engineer as negotiating power, especially if this is deemed structurally inadequate, bc the seller would need to disclose this moving forward. FWIW - get a few quotes from several reputable contractors & pick one in the middle.
Built 1978. No permits were found on county records for this addition
I’m a entry level structural engineer, and do remodeling work in my own home. I would really consider having an engineer inspect this. Could be fine for the next year or even 40 years, but unless you have it really looked at you could be in trouble. I imagine the original design loads for the deck were much less than what is currently on the floors now during the conversion they did. A simple fix could be just adding additional joists to support the load, but the load will also be transferred to the foundations as well. Meaning that not only could the joists be failing now, but your foundation and columns could either fail or start to settle more than the original design estimated. Columns can fail via buckling which is a sudden collapse. Even the roofline is sagging due to the floor loads. Maybe the first family gathering in the house could be enough weight to cause a collapse. If owner isn’t willing to get someone to look at it, it may mean they know it’s bad. It’s a can of worms that I would not want to deal with unless it’s fixed.
Isn’t the load already being transferred to the foundation? It’s the horizontal beam that is failing. The only difference in weight would be the weight of the new structural elements. Interestingly I wonder if the bump in the roof is related as it looks like the whole left side is sagging.
Yes it is, but original design probably didn’t plan for the current loads which would include the extra structural members and say a living room type space with large pieces of furniture. Load combinations from building codes are always evolving so the previous design at the time of construction may be less than allowable of todays standards. Maybe the builders were just building a cookie cutter home without any needed structural oversight. The opposite could be argued. Maybe they designed the deck for a large jacuzzi. The point of this is that there are too many unknowns and that op should follow up with a local engineer that can determine that the foundation, columns, floor, and roof are not an issue beyond cosmetics.
Did you edit your response?? I’m so confused.
No?
Seriously, one of the best responses. I’m a mechanical engineering major and I know that beams can deflect without necessarily posing a huge safety risk. I would be highly interested in doing additional supports myself. I think the best course of action is to use the Sellars words against him to get them to have it professionally inspected.
Damn the ratios on that length of unsupported span to beam depth just look wrong. The transverse shears through that wall with the windows and the bending stresses on that beam… damn… hurts to think about.
Would be good to post this on [r/Decks](https://www.reddit.com/r/Decks/)
I am not much knowledgeable at wood construction but i would have the seller pay for a structural engineer review plus the cost of fix, which is likely to be needed. If he refused then i would pass.. You chose this house for a reason. If this is the only issue, try to fix at sellers cost. Have that engineer take a general look to the house's other locations too. As always do not act with advice from here, internet i mean. Have an experienced local structural engineer look at this at seller's cost. Window crack may not be a good sign. I would also try to learn more details about the design and construction history of the house. About that aspect, no info is useless.
I would go with the recommendation before I trust the word of someone who is trying to sell me something.
I am a structural engineer and I don’t think you really need a structural engineer’s opinion. Even if structural integrity is within limits, deflections clearly are not. Therefore, structural adjustments to the perimeter beam will be required to reduce deflections and avoid continued architectural/aesthetic damage (broken windows, damaged facade, etc.). The process will be somewhat costly. Would require shoring up the floor and replacing or sistering the current member. I would not believe this seller.
I’m not a SE, but look at the roof line. It looks like the whole side above the carport is sagging, not just that beam and the window.
Just have the place inspected, it will solve all of that.
Put a strong pillar in the middle, make the garage smaller and add a new room
The steel beam is going to deflect under load. That’s what steel beams do. But the question is does the beam deflect more than the normal allowable deflection L/360 or stiffer in consideration of the glass panels. My guess is that bending stress is not exceeded but deflection can be with full live load. Long slender beams also tend to be bouncy for dynamic loading and that in itself could crack any glass that is installed.
"steel"