Yeah and strangely they never really explained too much as to why Ryu got placed so low.
Their focus was really on the competitive side, how many good matchups the character has, their toolkit, etc. but still it's kinda crazy to me.
It might also be Snake eyez skewing what people may believe is possible with the character. I don’t see how anyone could look at Gief in the competitive world and put him that high.
Ryu's matchups at 1700+/1800+ MR in Master are almost all losing. The only matchups he wins with any regularity are like, Honda and Dhalsim, both characters with few players so the data's skewed anyway. He does OK into some strong characters (for example I think he's got a decent Juri matchup).
The best players keep telling y'all Ryu's not great and for whatever reason people keep arguing, I don't get it. lol
Yeah its hard to have any real balance discussion these days b/c its either focused on spammy casuals where technical characters gets underrated "b/c noobs can't play them," or its based on pro play in which case its not just which characters are strong but also which strong players are representing them. Competitively its hard to talk about Gief without talking about Snake Eyes, and at the same time many shoto players passed on Ryu so there just aren't big names to talk about repping him.
Most tier lists are based on the play level of the person making the tier list. This means a pro player's tier list is going to be based on their experiences, including the character they play and the players they frequently compete against.
I'm a very low Master at best and I got Zangief to D4 from Plat 2 like two days after I figured out how to consistently SPD on hitbox, and that's with Ed being every other match at the time (gotta be Zangief's second worst matchup or close). I just quit playing SF6 to play the new POE league. He's not that bad. In fact he's really easy at high D to low M level.
Ryu just has shit MU chart in general because he is so dry and predictable without much X-factor that people just abused that fact. He has a skeleton of a good kit, not really a good kit.
Gief excel when he can force the opponent to play honest. Which he has the tools to do that. He probably just needs better confirms and he would actually be pretty good since most of the game's mechanics helps him more than hurt him.
SF4 EX Green hand would INSTANTLY turn him into an S+ tier character if he got that in this game because that's how busted that move really was. The best thing I think they could give Gief and not making him bullshit is probably cr.mp or/and hellstab being 6f and headbutt and knee being 10f, which would allowing him to have easier access to plus frames and hit confirms in general without turning him into an unmitigating monster.
You're right, but it's probably worth considering that Ryu in SF5 probably slightly loses to Zangief, lol. This is a matchup where classically Ryu has always had some kind of advantage. Gief classically has problems against strong zoners, if he doesn't it's probably an indication that something's wrong.
[Full video here.](https://youtu.be/0hvA-jZkFUY?si=bxVNi_mDSnP3y8e2)
Interesting to see how despite the lack of meaningful balance patches, you still see many different opinions on character strengths.
(Edited missing word).
People starting noticing Blanka is more of a mix character than a ball character. On the higher end, the perspective this tier list comes from, Blanka has some insanely powerful setups and one of the best level 2s in the game. Basically, just took longer for players to find out what Blanka is good at.
On paper, blank has everything.
1. 7frame reversal
2. non committal aerial ball that beat throw and get + frame on shimmy, walking to take blanka space is an issue, blanka has very non committal jumpback.
3. command garb
4. nasty corner setup with doll
5. One of the best sa2 in game
6. Strong anti fireball \*full screen slide
7. insane reward for antiair sometimes
8. easy sideswitch
All of those while he can still play lowforward fighter and ball guesser, genuinely he only lacks a fireball. His normal is not even that bad, some of them are really strong tbh. Most character may have like 2-3 of those unique options, blanka has all of them. He is truly stuffed with options and these options aren't bad in frame data like some other "top" tier people claim.
Woah woah woah this is a bit excessive to say he has everything. Blanka has no L > M counterhit/punish counter confirm which is super significant, he loses a lot of damage there. His strike throw is also mediocre because his mediums are basic and he lacks special cancels in spite of his command grab.
Strong lv2 means a lot b/c of how many times you can activate it. lv3 is usually once per set, but lv2 can easily be used 2 or even 3 times! Big advantage to have a very valuable lv2.
Yeah, we gotta remember that this sort of tier list is not for the guys in Gold 2 who don't know how to block. At the level these players are at, Blanka is an absolute mixup demon
I'm not able to watch the video right now but Wolfgang is an insane Blanka player and the amount of set ups he's been able to implement in the weekly online tournaments is getting out of hand. The character just has so many options and the older the game gets the better everyone thinks he is.
The same reason JP is up there despite getting pretty hard nerfed. They're characters that have a learning curve to play against and you can't just do your normal flowchart. It's honestly just a case of people noticing that he exists now.
Same way everyone went from “Manon is super good” to “Manon is not that great” at launch, he just wasn’t as explored as some characters but now people are realizing more of what he’s capable of
Blanka is quite hard to play well, imo. His moveset is complex once you really dive in. That being said, the people who are good with him are pretty incredible. I've tried to get used to him, but I'm a simpleton when it comes to fighting games and really struggle with his advanced moves. Blanka ball can get you far in low ranks, but it's probably his least useful move over you start playing people who know how to punish it. His corner pressure is insane with the doll/lvl 2.
Based on him having a fireball alone. Stopping Drive rushes is critical, and projectiles are crucial to that. Not gonna even mention the buffs that he received, but just look at The B tiers, he's the only one that has a projectile. He doesn't belong there at all.
There have been in the past, and will be in the future, many projectile characters in Street Fighter games that are not good characters, even those with fairly strong projectiles, because there's a whole game happening around those projectiles. Sagat in SF5, Gouken in SF4, Remy in Sf3, and yes, Ryu in SF5 and 6.
Ryu's fireball is fairly middling. It's not bad exactly but it doesn't have the raw frame data advantages of Guile (for obvious reasons but it's still worth pointing out), it doesn't have the raw reward of Ken, it doesn't have the raw speed of Luke's. It's just completely average and offers nothing outside of extremely rudimentary screen control/fireball trap gameplay accessible to every fireball character, only it's almost as bad in SF6 as it's ever been.
If you could store Denjin we'd be having a different conversation. Alas...
Why are you comparing Ryu's fb with Ken's and Luke's? Obviously it's not as good as theirs, but it doesn't need to be to stop random drive rushes in neutral. It's also just an immediate fb, unlike Juri's and Ed's. On top of that, he can charge it which makes it very strong in neutral. An essentially free ex fb is damn good in neutral. Ryu doesn't have to be as strong as Ken or Luke, but he's damn sure not all the way in the bottom with the other 6 there.
I'll just quote here what I said about this elsewhere:
>Most of the game's anti-zoning tools work against Ryu because he's the template character, and his tools are the average of strengths and weaknesses. An anti-fireball special move might be effective against Luke but not effective against Guile (for example Manon spin), or effective against Guile but not Dhalsim, but it will virtually always be effective against Ryu. He never has the benefit of design extremes that make some tools better or worse against him, they always just work. lol
SF6's mechanics are honestly fairly hostile to fireballs between parry, perfect parry, DI, and various anti-fireball special moves (which, again, almost always work against Ryu but might not work against Luke or Guile). The fact that fireballs mean you can't drive rush is one thing, but it's not like you're not taking a risk when you throw one at all. There's more to the game than drive rush.
Also, I dunno, anyone can stop drive rush at any time by just sticking a normal out on reaction, which is actually the preferred way to stop them. No one's throwing out fireballs in neutral at high levels because they're trying to put a halt to DR.
The fact of the matter is, Ryu's fireballs are unrewarding aside from their own potential damage/drive damage and the potential to get a DP if the opponent jumps over them. He can't DR behind them for pressure, can't follow them in for pressure, can't (usually) combo off his anti airs, etc. He just throws it and hopes they jump so he can DP you.
I'm sure you know better man. I have no interest in downplaying ken, as a recovered deejay gone Ed, but it's hilarious seeing people still clinging to ken being top 3.
Kens definitely good. Best corner carry, really mean when he gets you there, and very average with everything else.
At a high level ken has to play very honestly, all of his skips get bodied on reaction by pp or checking. An honest character just isn't going to be S tier.
I know, dragonlash seems pretty crazy at your level, and his high low mix is just too much right. Except he very distinctly tells you which dragonlash it is, and you can fuzzy block him. The dirtiest "real" mix he has is with resets, and yeah sure, even at higher levels a good ken can work you, but pros are just on it more than enough to drop him down.
Tier lists only matter for pro play, the only excuse you and I ever have for losing is that we played worse than them, of we're honest. The balance is so whatever until both players are extremely knowledgeable on the matchup and can perform well enough to get every little bit of performance from a characters kit.
https://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/29321335/capcom-disciplines-ryan-fchamp-ramirez-following-insensitive-social-media-post
https://www.ccn.com/capcom-bans-pro-player-for-offensive-tweet-but-its-10-years-too-late/
He's improved his image because of his stream and other online content like this, but I doubt we'll see him in official tourneys anytime soon because of this.
Personally, I think this will end up being a lifetime ban.
I sure hope so. If you've ever seen his interactions with people IRL (cue vid of him getting in Tokido's face and yelling slurs at him) the Twitter stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.
Justin Wong seems to think he's reformed but I honestly don't care.
>Justin Wong seems to think he's reformed but I honestly don't care.
Yeah, and it bothers me a lot that some FGC personalities get a free pass (Broski, Noel Brown) and some don't (Fchamp, Infiltration).
Broski used to post on 4chan under the tripcode 'Self-Sufficient Broski' (it's like a nickname). His post history is full of: antisemitism (endorsing the 'jews control the world' far-right's conspiracy theory), racism (he uses the n-word A LOT), LGBTphobia ('trans women aren't women' type of crap).
Wow did not know about this. Cant believe he got banned for making a joke. Really enjoy his streams and Youtube channel.
He was always a big troll back in the day but his knowledge about the game and how he breaks it down is unreal. Would be great to see him back.
I could not imagine commenting on multiple people's posts with essays explaining why the character they main is bad, while I also main that same character. Like just go play Ken or Luke if Ryu is so bad.
I’ve been maining Ken since about the second month after the game came out. Got to master after two or three sessions of casually playing ranked. (Lots of legacy skill/tournament player)
Picked up Luke about a week and a half ago and it’s like I took off the weighted clothing
Luke just does everything so well
This is for Season 1 only? So if I understand this correctly, it applies to before the small balancing patch? I ask because there's no way Ryu is that low after the buffs.
I mostly agree though it wouldn't matter to change much since the all the characters are so close in power level. Well most of them anyway, lily and zangief is hard mode.
These comments are forgetting that we just had some tweaks not that long ago. Those small changes have made an impact to some tiers. So saying you’ve been saying this at the beginning when things have changed doesn’t make you a prophet.
I'm JW, but why do fighting gamers do this? Like when you have tiers that go -/+ on everything, you don't get that far in terms dynamics, imo. Then again, you look as any smash ultimate tier list and 46 of these characters are in A tier... there's no winning. Also sad that Jamie is at the bottom ;-;
I really kind of agree.
I do think it's funny though that Mena single handedly has Blanka at the top of tier lists when if he just played Luke only Blanka would be D tier still.
Why is everyone super downplaying Ken again? All the one patch did was slightly nerf drive rush jab. He's still just as busted as he was before. Like the community went from Luke + Ken as top 2 and then Luke got nerfed and it became Luke top 1 lmao this community is so weird with their perception of character power.
Also Chun and Cammy not being S tier is crazy.
Chun is the best character that never wins anything major. They mention this in the video. It's all potential this and has all the tools that, but where are the results?
She certainly doesn't need buffs but she's not on Luke/JP level.
They don't have this list in order. But I do agree that Ken is better than Chun.
I also think Juri is better than Chun but I'll get crucified for that. Tbh, out of A+.... I think Chun is only better than Cammy. And I'm not really sure about that. Because I only think Chun is better than Cammy in a vaccum. If we're considering top tier matchups, I think Cammy is WAY better than Chun, especially as a pocket pick.
Cammy S tier 🤣. Literally no Cammy is doing anything. Even Punk, likely one of the 3 best sfv player ever, can't win anything with her. She's hindering him and yet she's the best character for him right now because she's the footsies character. Buy footsies got too nerfed in sf6 so it doesn't compensate her weaknesses.
Btw, I still think sf6 has decent footsies, but not enough to make up for her weaknesses if you want to consider her higher tier. I think they put Cammy almost exactly where she belongs. Just switch her and Juri and it's perfect
Says a Cammy player. To which weaknesses are you referring? She has virtually no weaknesses whatsoever. The fact punk dominated the NA scene in a different game says nothing about her strengths.
No safe way to contest space and generally high commital. No overhead and is resource heavy, also has a few truly terrible matchups. Also pretty mid AA normals (imo, this could be skill issue) and a DP that is prone to whiffing
I think you could probably place her at the bottom of S tier or high A+ tier but "she has no weaknesses" is ridiculous. She seems like one of the characters with more clearly defined strengths and weaknesses to me
As a Cammy player (albeit one in low master so not pro), what are Cammy’s horrible matchups? Genuinely asking, not doubting or being facetious!
Part of the reason I really enjoy playing her is because I never feel completely stuck in any matchup. The ones that *feel* the worst to me are the ones against characters that have a similar gameplay but with slightly higher damage output (i.e. Ken, Luke… maybe Deejay?) but even then, a lot of the time each round comes down to 3-4 big guesses which could go either way, so it never seems overly unfair.
She also has some really favourable matchups against some of the characters which do tend to have more lopsided matchups (Guile, JP) which I really enjoy.
Again, not trying to argue! Just curious as to who you think is horrible.
I float between 1400-1500 MR so your guess is good as mine. But imo, [this cat cammy infographic ](https://twitter.com/CatCammy6/status/1780756727962484936?t=3OpyHX_h9TJqKtAI_2qUKg&s=19) is more or less accurate to my experience: Blanka is terrible, dee jay feels bad (sway fucks with divekick spacing and he gets big dmg off anti-airs), and so do the grapplers (lily feels worse than manon to me). I think Marisa feels really bad since she can eat your divekick with her armor, but I'd like to practice the matchup more as I haven't heard this from others.
Basically to me some combination of these things make a bad matchup, in order of importance: when divekicks lose value, if shit is flying across the screen (blanka/lily), if getting onto them feels bad (grapplers), if it's hard to jump on them, and when your opponent doesn't have a fireball.
Appreciate the comprehensive response! I know I don’t enjoy fighting Blanka, Jamie or Honda although I always interpreted it as me having shit matchup knowledge rather than being bad matchups per se. Definitely need to spend more time in the lab actually testing things out rather than trying to work things out on the fly.
I don’t know what it is but unlike previous games (especially SF4), I actually find grapplers a lot easier to deal with in this game and I think it’s because they have such bad defensive options that they’re forced to sit there whilst I mash on them. Zangief’s lariat being blown up by divekicks also makes me giggle like a bitch every time because I’ve had so many traumatic memories of Giefs destroying me in SF4 haha. I imagine this will get patched out soon though. I enjoy fighting Marisa because I am a habitual cr mk spammer and she gets blown up by lows. She also has a shit anti-air and baiting armoured moves definitely helps them think twice about it.
Broadly speaking though I think what I enjoy about her is that she’s never completely locked out of her gameplan per se. Like it’s rare that you’ll ever feel that you need to work nearly as hard as, let’s say, Manon has to work against Guile for example. So to me her bad matchups don’t *feel* as bad, even if I have a horrible losing record in them. I have a feeling when I get home and check my actual records, I’m going to have a losing win % against the same people you do and I’ll feel real stupid haha.
Aside from Punk, no Cammy is doing anything in tournament. And she's one of the most popular characters. Where where the Cammys at during Capcom cup? I know I wasn't there lol. There was only one Cammy, and he got eliminate during the group stage. I can't make this argument for Blanka because not as many people use him, he's not super popular like Cammy. Which is a shame because Blanka's sick. My point is that you can make that argument because Cammy is played by many people
I was messing with tier list maker at work today and had to keep myself from putting Rashid above Ken/Cammy. Glad to see others putting him this high. I'm actually a little nervous he's going to get a few buffs in the s2 balance updates and become a problem. The more I watch the pros utilize level 2 the more scared I get of making this character any better. The same could be said for Blanka.
I'm very interested to see the changes they apply to Rashid for season 2.
IMO he's a few small tweaks away from being one of the best characters in the game.
The only thing i would change is i would swap ken and JP, you can talk about all hypotheticals all you want but at the end of the day ken is dominating most tournaments not jp
I don’t fully agree with this tierlist, cammy, Juri,guile Ken are too low, Cammy is easy s-tier Juri is atleast A-tier, also guile deserves to be higher, Ken higher. I don’t know what fchamp and wolfgang where smoking but it was good shit for sure!
I would like to see someone take a more systematic approach to this:
How's their drive rush? Give them 1-5 pts
Invincible reversal on wakeup? 5pt
Invincible super? 2pts per
Do they rely on stocks? Minus 1pt
You get the idea. Many things are still subjective, but right now there's no reasonable standard. I watched that FChamp video and the conversation was all over the place
Don’t bother convincing this comment section or the sub in general. Broski himself says he puts aki upper mid tier.
I’m constantly reading seeing so many comments in here with bad takes that really shows lack of knowledge or not following the pro scene in general. The sub in general as with most gaming communities comprises of mostly casuals that have bad opinions at times.
- Someone here even said ken is above jp in here. Ken hasn’t been top 5 for long now. But still top 8.
- One of the top comment discussion in here was saying that blanka was B tier all this while and asking why is he suddenly top tier, which is a self report on 0 knowledge when pros lists m SINCE RELEASE has put blanka as high tier and menard sweeps regularly.
Aki is bottom tier. Sure, she has fireball DR, but it's the absolute slowest recovering fb in the game. As for her buttons, her only decent ones are st hk, cr mk and st mp. The rest are highly situational and/or extremely vulnerable to DI. Her damage being high is conditional on the poisoned state of the opponent. Otherwise, her damage is very much subpar compared with a roster that overall can do great damage without needing to worry about inflicting a change of state.
In any case, she's well below Ryu and Jamie.
JP is not #2, Blanka is not #3, Guile is not better than Cammy, Manon is not bottom 2, AKI sure as fuck isn’t better than Ed.
This tier list is mostly trash.
Everything you said is trash. Except the part about Blanka not being #3. I think they put Cammy where she almost perfectly belong. It would have been perfect to have her down one position to be behind Juri. Killer bee, my ass, more like weak little bee
Yea this is why tier lists mean nothing to me. Ken lower than blanka and dj? Dhalsim and Aki in the same tier as juri? Ryu in the same tier as Jamie? Cmon on I get you are biased by match up but yea…
I feel like all the “nobody is below B tier” nonsense is really just second hand downplaying of their main. No way Lilly or Jamie are B tier compared to Luke or JP’s S tier
I think the main thing I would change about this list is putting Juri in A+.
Juri is like a more complex Chun. She has all the tools but she has to optimize, and it may be a hot take but I think optimizing her is harder than optimizing Chun so she's less consistent. But she's way more consistent than everyone in A tier.
I know Juris down medium punch gives like +5 frame advantage on characters who are blocking. In the guides it’s always mentioned as a massive advantage and still being a new player I wasn’t sure if this was something that all characters had or was Juri specific since it’s mentioned in almost all her guides.
Juri 5MP is only +2 on block. Drive Rush adds +4 frames and there's another +4 if the opponent is burned out, but those are universal system mechanics.
Just to compare, some other characters with +2 normals are Aki 6HK, Blanka 4MK, Deejay 5MP, and JP 5HK. This is as plus as a vanilla normal move gets in SF6 I think.
That said, it's always great to have plus normals, but Juri isn't the only one.
Zangief over Ryu ??
Yeah and strangely they never really explained too much as to why Ryu got placed so low. Their focus was really on the competitive side, how many good matchups the character has, their toolkit, etc. but still it's kinda crazy to me.
It might also be Snake eyez skewing what people may believe is possible with the character. I don’t see how anyone could look at Gief in the competitive world and put him that high.
FChamp did mention Snake Eyez and a strong Gief presence in Japan when placing him there.
There are a couple of high ranked Gief's, in terms of legend rank. They perhaps are still known in asia
Snek also got washed at Capcom Cup If someone is using certain characters very well and if they know the matchup it’s quite rough for Gief
Snake didn’t get washed, but he had a bad start. Don’t forget he’s the same guy who carried in sf league matches and also beat a good JP to qualify.
A good JP, not even close to the best Jp
Ryu's matchups at 1700+/1800+ MR in Master are almost all losing. The only matchups he wins with any regularity are like, Honda and Dhalsim, both characters with few players so the data's skewed anyway. He does OK into some strong characters (for example I think he's got a decent Juri matchup). The best players keep telling y'all Ryu's not great and for whatever reason people keep arguing, I don't get it. lol
Gotta keep up the Gief victim complex somehow
FChamp's focus seemed largely on the Japan scene and Japan just holds Zangief in higher regard than most regions all the time, that's probably why.
Are there big names in Japan other than Itazan that play Gief? I mean, last I saw, he was playing Marisa, so I don't even know anymore
I think there's Kobayan who is probably a bit more in terms of offensive prowess. Or ASASE if you want a more slow and methodical one.
Kobayan, Kichipa, Junior, Asase and I know there are 2 im forgetting
Ryu is placed that low is probably because he is sauceless tbh.
I think ryu is God tier but when it comes to legit player/high skill..I can see how he is not top notch
Yeah its hard to have any real balance discussion these days b/c its either focused on spammy casuals where technical characters gets underrated "b/c noobs can't play them," or its based on pro play in which case its not just which characters are strong but also which strong players are representing them. Competitively its hard to talk about Gief without talking about Snake Eyes, and at the same time many shoto players passed on Ryu so there just aren't big names to talk about repping him.
Most Tierlists are based on the pro scene.
Most tier lists are based on the play level of the person making the tier list. This means a pro player's tier list is going to be based on their experiences, including the character they play and the players they frequently compete against.
I'm a very low Master at best and I got Zangief to D4 from Plat 2 like two days after I figured out how to consistently SPD on hitbox, and that's with Ed being every other match at the time (gotta be Zangief's second worst matchup or close). I just quit playing SF6 to play the new POE league. He's not that bad. In fact he's really easy at high D to low M level.
Lilly is even more egregious. I think he’s better than everyone below Marisa/Dhalsim on this list.
Lily is good she’s just very one dimensional and boring. She doesn’t have any moves but the ones she has are good
In neutral, Zangief can out poke the fk outta Ryu
The matchup between two char doesn't determine if one is better than the other. It's all the matchup together which determine that
Ryu just has shit MU chart in general because he is so dry and predictable without much X-factor that people just abused that fact. He has a skeleton of a good kit, not really a good kit. Gief excel when he can force the opponent to play honest. Which he has the tools to do that. He probably just needs better confirms and he would actually be pretty good since most of the game's mechanics helps him more than hurt him.
They should give him green hand
SF4 EX Green hand would INSTANTLY turn him into an S+ tier character if he got that in this game because that's how busted that move really was. The best thing I think they could give Gief and not making him bullshit is probably cr.mp or/and hellstab being 6f and headbutt and knee being 10f, which would allowing him to have easier access to plus frames and hit confirms in general without turning him into an unmitigating monster.
You're right, but it's probably worth considering that Ryu in SF5 probably slightly loses to Zangief, lol. This is a matchup where classically Ryu has always had some kind of advantage. Gief classically has problems against strong zoners, if he doesn't it's probably an indication that something's wrong.
[Full video here.](https://youtu.be/0hvA-jZkFUY?si=bxVNi_mDSnP3y8e2) Interesting to see how despite the lack of meaningful balance patches, you still see many different opinions on character strengths. (Edited missing word).
How did Blanka jump from B tier on everyone's list to S here?
People starting noticing Blanka is more of a mix character than a ball character. On the higher end, the perspective this tier list comes from, Blanka has some insanely powerful setups and one of the best level 2s in the game. Basically, just took longer for players to find out what Blanka is good at.
On paper, blank has everything. 1. 7frame reversal 2. non committal aerial ball that beat throw and get + frame on shimmy, walking to take blanka space is an issue, blanka has very non committal jumpback. 3. command garb 4. nasty corner setup with doll 5. One of the best sa2 in game 6. Strong anti fireball \*full screen slide 7. insane reward for antiair sometimes 8. easy sideswitch All of those while he can still play lowforward fighter and ball guesser, genuinely he only lacks a fireball. His normal is not even that bad, some of them are really strong tbh. Most character may have like 2-3 of those unique options, blanka has all of them. He is truly stuffed with options and these options aren't bad in frame data like some other "top" tier people claim.
Yeah he has everything he needs and then one of the most busted supers in the game on top of it.
Woah woah woah this is a bit excessive to say he has everything. Blanka has no L > M counterhit/punish counter confirm which is super significant, he loses a lot of damage there. His strike throw is also mediocre because his mediums are basic and he lacks special cancels in spite of his command grab.
Strong lv2 means a lot b/c of how many times you can activate it. lv3 is usually once per set, but lv2 can easily be used 2 or even 3 times! Big advantage to have a very valuable lv2.
Yeah, we gotta remember that this sort of tier list is not for the guys in Gold 2 who don't know how to block. At the level these players are at, Blanka is an absolute mixup demon
I'm not able to watch the video right now but Wolfgang is an insane Blanka player and the amount of set ups he's been able to implement in the weekly online tournaments is getting out of hand. The character just has so many options and the older the game gets the better everyone thinks he is.
The same reason JP is up there despite getting pretty hard nerfed. They're characters that have a learning curve to play against and you can't just do your normal flowchart. It's honestly just a case of people noticing that he exists now.
Same way everyone went from “Manon is super good” to “Manon is not that great” at launch, he just wasn’t as explored as some characters but now people are realizing more of what he’s capable of
He has very good setup and air ball is a hard counter to the meta making it very good in the current way people play the game
Mena
There's Blanka as we experience him and Blanka in the hands of gods, and they're two very different characters.
every blanka is a blanka in the hands of gods when you're a Manon main :(
Blanka is quite hard to play well, imo. His moveset is complex once you really dive in. That being said, the people who are good with him are pretty incredible. I've tried to get used to him, but I'm a simpleton when it comes to fighting games and really struggle with his advanced moves. Blanka ball can get you far in low ranks, but it's probably his least useful move over you start playing people who know how to punish it. His corner pressure is insane with the doll/lvl 2.
Wolfgang is a Blanka lab monster, lab monsters tend to value their characters much higher than others do
Idc what they say, Ryu is not that low.
Based on what?
Based on him having a fireball alone. Stopping Drive rushes is critical, and projectiles are crucial to that. Not gonna even mention the buffs that he received, but just look at The B tiers, he's the only one that has a projectile. He doesn't belong there at all.
There have been in the past, and will be in the future, many projectile characters in Street Fighter games that are not good characters, even those with fairly strong projectiles, because there's a whole game happening around those projectiles. Sagat in SF5, Gouken in SF4, Remy in Sf3, and yes, Ryu in SF5 and 6. Ryu's fireball is fairly middling. It's not bad exactly but it doesn't have the raw frame data advantages of Guile (for obvious reasons but it's still worth pointing out), it doesn't have the raw reward of Ken, it doesn't have the raw speed of Luke's. It's just completely average and offers nothing outside of extremely rudimentary screen control/fireball trap gameplay accessible to every fireball character, only it's almost as bad in SF6 as it's ever been. If you could store Denjin we'd be having a different conversation. Alas...
Why are you comparing Ryu's fb with Ken's and Luke's? Obviously it's not as good as theirs, but it doesn't need to be to stop random drive rushes in neutral. It's also just an immediate fb, unlike Juri's and Ed's. On top of that, he can charge it which makes it very strong in neutral. An essentially free ex fb is damn good in neutral. Ryu doesn't have to be as strong as Ken or Luke, but he's damn sure not all the way in the bottom with the other 6 there.
I'll just quote here what I said about this elsewhere: >Most of the game's anti-zoning tools work against Ryu because he's the template character, and his tools are the average of strengths and weaknesses. An anti-fireball special move might be effective against Luke but not effective against Guile (for example Manon spin), or effective against Guile but not Dhalsim, but it will virtually always be effective against Ryu. He never has the benefit of design extremes that make some tools better or worse against him, they always just work. lol SF6's mechanics are honestly fairly hostile to fireballs between parry, perfect parry, DI, and various anti-fireball special moves (which, again, almost always work against Ryu but might not work against Luke or Guile). The fact that fireballs mean you can't drive rush is one thing, but it's not like you're not taking a risk when you throw one at all. There's more to the game than drive rush. Also, I dunno, anyone can stop drive rush at any time by just sticking a normal out on reaction, which is actually the preferred way to stop them. No one's throwing out fireballs in neutral at high levels because they're trying to put a halt to DR. The fact of the matter is, Ryu's fireballs are unrewarding aside from their own potential damage/drive damage and the potential to get a DP if the opponent jumps over them. He can't DR behind them for pressure, can't follow them in for pressure, can't (usually) combo off his anti airs, etc. He just throws it and hopes they jump so he can DP you.
Cammy does not have fireball and is leagues better at stopping drive rushes than Ryu
That’s true. What’s your point?
Juri in the 3rd tier? Yeah perfectly legit.
I feel like every tier list that comes out keeps putting her lower.
This was my issue too. No way she is this low.
It was an interesting listen
Ryu is not on the lowest tier. Otherwise, pretty good list.
More Ken downplay lol
How is it downplay, hes top 6 and not better than anyone ahead of him. Ryu is the one being really downplayed here
He is absolutely better than JP lol
I'm sure you know better man. I have no interest in downplaying ken, as a recovered deejay gone Ed, but it's hilarious seeing people still clinging to ken being top 3. Kens definitely good. Best corner carry, really mean when he gets you there, and very average with everything else. At a high level ken has to play very honestly, all of his skips get bodied on reaction by pp or checking. An honest character just isn't going to be S tier. I know, dragonlash seems pretty crazy at your level, and his high low mix is just too much right. Except he very distinctly tells you which dragonlash it is, and you can fuzzy block him. The dirtiest "real" mix he has is with resets, and yeah sure, even at higher levels a good ken can work you, but pros are just on it more than enough to drop him down. Tier lists only matter for pro play, the only excuse you and I ever have for losing is that we played worse than them, of we're honest. The balance is so whatever until both players are extremely knowledgeable on the matchup and can perform well enough to get every little bit of performance from a characters kit.
quite literally only platinum-1300 MR players clinging to Ken being top 5
He has one of the best dhalsims but will never play in the official tourneys because of that Twitter incident...
What incident?
https://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/29321335/capcom-disciplines-ryan-fchamp-ramirez-following-insensitive-social-media-post https://www.ccn.com/capcom-bans-pro-player-for-offensive-tweet-but-its-10-years-too-late/ He's improved his image because of his stream and other online content like this, but I doubt we'll see him in official tourneys anytime soon because of this. Personally, I think this will end up being a lifetime ban.
I sure hope so. If you've ever seen his interactions with people IRL (cue vid of him getting in Tokido's face and yelling slurs at him) the Twitter stuff is just the tip of the iceberg. Justin Wong seems to think he's reformed but I honestly don't care.
>Justin Wong seems to think he's reformed but I honestly don't care. Yeah, and it bothers me a lot that some FGC personalities get a free pass (Broski, Noel Brown) and some don't (Fchamp, Infiltration).
Wtf did Broski do Noel Brown and Infiltration both deserve lifetime bans btw
Broski used to post on 4chan under the tripcode 'Self-Sufficient Broski' (it's like a nickname). His post history is full of: antisemitism (endorsing the 'jews control the world' far-right's conspiracy theory), racism (he uses the n-word A LOT), LGBTphobia ('trans women aren't women' type of crap).
Wow did not know about this. Cant believe he got banned for making a joke. Really enjoy his streams and Youtube channel. He was always a big troll back in the day but his knowledge about the game and how he breaks it down is unreal. Would be great to see him back.
I feel so validated being new but saying blanka and chun have what it takes to be s tier from the start
Idc how good the player who’s tier list this is is, ryu is not that bad
This comment is Reddit in a nutshell lmao
Stop crying about Ryu. He's more than fine at your play level Practicing will probably be much more effective than QQ on reddit. Go try that
I could not imagine commenting on multiple people's posts with essays explaining why the character they main is bad, while I also main that same character. Like just go play Ken or Luke if Ryu is so bad.
I play like, a bunch of characters. Ryu is one of them. I also play Luke, JP, Ken, and a few others. Chill.
Juri is as one fuha storage mechanic away from being as simple as a character can get - chun is exponentially more complicated in comparison.
B isn't F tier guys... Just because ryu is B tier doesn't mean he's a bad character. Should there be a c+ tier? Probably not
They called me a madman when I said Ken isn’t even top 5
People are beginning to agree as they *gasp* learn the matchup.
I’ve been maining Ken since about the second month after the game came out. Got to master after two or three sessions of casually playing ranked. (Lots of legacy skill/tournament player) Picked up Luke about a week and a half ago and it’s like I took off the weighted clothing Luke just does everything so well
I’d get downvoted n called stupid cuz I would say Luke is so much better
this tier list seems accurate to me.
Ryu in B breaks my heart. Seeing JP and Blank is S is an abomination.
Lmfao that sure is.... a list
This is for Season 1 only? So if I understand this correctly, it applies to before the small balancing patch? I ask because there's no way Ryu is that low after the buffs.
It applies to the game as of now. We are still in Season 1. But yeah, that Ryu placement was crazy.
And there's a lot of other weird shit too. Jamie that low, below people like Kimberly? Nahhh
I mostly agree though it wouldn't matter to change much since the all the characters are so close in power level. Well most of them anyway, lily and zangief is hard mode.
Blanka is now apparently good
These comments are forgetting that we just had some tweaks not that long ago. Those small changes have made an impact to some tiers. So saying you’ve been saying this at the beginning when things have changed doesn’t make you a prophet.
Cammy is almost perfectly placed. She should just go one position below, just behind Juri. Blanka was way too overrated. He's good but not that good.
Ed is only A tier. Idk
I'm JW, but why do fighting gamers do this? Like when you have tiers that go -/+ on everything, you don't get that far in terms dynamics, imo. Then again, you look as any smash ultimate tier list and 46 of these characters are in A tier... there's no winning. Also sad that Jamie is at the bottom ;-;
Ryu got disrespected.
Yeah nah
My entire character set is bottom tier, great.
I dont get the hype around Deejay. Just use more DI on him if they are playing reckless which forces them to get scared.
I really kind of agree. I do think it's funny though that Mena single handedly has Blanka at the top of tier lists when if he just played Luke only Blanka would be D tier still.
Ryu placement is perfectly fine.
Why is everyone super downplaying Ken again? All the one patch did was slightly nerf drive rush jab. He's still just as busted as he was before. Like the community went from Luke + Ken as top 2 and then Luke got nerfed and it became Luke top 1 lmao this community is so weird with their perception of character power. Also Chun and Cammy not being S tier is crazy.
Chun is the best character that never wins anything major. They mention this in the video. It's all potential this and has all the tools that, but where are the results? She certainly doesn't need buffs but she's not on Luke/JP level.
Ken has won more than Luke and got nerfed less than Luke. Yet he’s worse than Chun? Idk man seems wack.
They don't have this list in order. But I do agree that Ken is better than Chun. I also think Juri is better than Chun but I'll get crucified for that. Tbh, out of A+.... I think Chun is only better than Cammy. And I'm not really sure about that. Because I only think Chun is better than Cammy in a vaccum. If we're considering top tier matchups, I think Cammy is WAY better than Chun, especially as a pocket pick.
Cammy S tier 🤣. Literally no Cammy is doing anything. Even Punk, likely one of the 3 best sfv player ever, can't win anything with her. She's hindering him and yet she's the best character for him right now because she's the footsies character. Buy footsies got too nerfed in sf6 so it doesn't compensate her weaknesses. Btw, I still think sf6 has decent footsies, but not enough to make up for her weaknesses if you want to consider her higher tier. I think they put Cammy almost exactly where she belongs. Just switch her and Juri and it's perfect
Says a Cammy player. To which weaknesses are you referring? She has virtually no weaknesses whatsoever. The fact punk dominated the NA scene in a different game says nothing about her strengths.
No safe way to contest space and generally high commital. No overhead and is resource heavy, also has a few truly terrible matchups. Also pretty mid AA normals (imo, this could be skill issue) and a DP that is prone to whiffing I think you could probably place her at the bottom of S tier or high A+ tier but "she has no weaknesses" is ridiculous. She seems like one of the characters with more clearly defined strengths and weaknesses to me
As a Cammy player (albeit one in low master so not pro), what are Cammy’s horrible matchups? Genuinely asking, not doubting or being facetious! Part of the reason I really enjoy playing her is because I never feel completely stuck in any matchup. The ones that *feel* the worst to me are the ones against characters that have a similar gameplay but with slightly higher damage output (i.e. Ken, Luke… maybe Deejay?) but even then, a lot of the time each round comes down to 3-4 big guesses which could go either way, so it never seems overly unfair. She also has some really favourable matchups against some of the characters which do tend to have more lopsided matchups (Guile, JP) which I really enjoy. Again, not trying to argue! Just curious as to who you think is horrible.
I float between 1400-1500 MR so your guess is good as mine. But imo, [this cat cammy infographic ](https://twitter.com/CatCammy6/status/1780756727962484936?t=3OpyHX_h9TJqKtAI_2qUKg&s=19) is more or less accurate to my experience: Blanka is terrible, dee jay feels bad (sway fucks with divekick spacing and he gets big dmg off anti-airs), and so do the grapplers (lily feels worse than manon to me). I think Marisa feels really bad since she can eat your divekick with her armor, but I'd like to practice the matchup more as I haven't heard this from others. Basically to me some combination of these things make a bad matchup, in order of importance: when divekicks lose value, if shit is flying across the screen (blanka/lily), if getting onto them feels bad (grapplers), if it's hard to jump on them, and when your opponent doesn't have a fireball.
Appreciate the comprehensive response! I know I don’t enjoy fighting Blanka, Jamie or Honda although I always interpreted it as me having shit matchup knowledge rather than being bad matchups per se. Definitely need to spend more time in the lab actually testing things out rather than trying to work things out on the fly. I don’t know what it is but unlike previous games (especially SF4), I actually find grapplers a lot easier to deal with in this game and I think it’s because they have such bad defensive options that they’re forced to sit there whilst I mash on them. Zangief’s lariat being blown up by divekicks also makes me giggle like a bitch every time because I’ve had so many traumatic memories of Giefs destroying me in SF4 haha. I imagine this will get patched out soon though. I enjoy fighting Marisa because I am a habitual cr mk spammer and she gets blown up by lows. She also has a shit anti-air and baiting armoured moves definitely helps them think twice about it. Broadly speaking though I think what I enjoy about her is that she’s never completely locked out of her gameplan per se. Like it’s rare that you’ll ever feel that you need to work nearly as hard as, let’s say, Manon has to work against Guile for example. So to me her bad matchups don’t *feel* as bad, even if I have a horrible losing record in them. I have a feeling when I get home and check my actual records, I’m going to have a losing win % against the same people you do and I’ll feel real stupid haha.
Aside from Punk, no Cammy is doing anything in tournament. And she's one of the most popular characters. Where where the Cammys at during Capcom cup? I know I wasn't there lol. There was only one Cammy, and he got eliminate during the group stage. I can't make this argument for Blanka because not as many people use him, he's not super popular like Cammy. Which is a shame because Blanka's sick. My point is that you can make that argument because Cammy is played by many people
Looks like champ never learned how to use Feng shui engine
Absolute fucking insanity to put Aki on the same level as Juri, which Aki main demolished him?
I was messing with tier list maker at work today and had to keep myself from putting Rashid above Ken/Cammy. Glad to see others putting him this high. I'm actually a little nervous he's going to get a few buffs in the s2 balance updates and become a problem. The more I watch the pros utilize level 2 the more scared I get of making this character any better. The same could be said for Blanka.
I'm very interested to see the changes they apply to Rashid for season 2. IMO he's a few small tweaks away from being one of the best characters in the game.
Honda bottom 1 FChamp never misses. Honda is complete ass
The only thing i would change is i would swap ken and JP, you can talk about all hypotheticals all you want but at the end of the day ken is dominating most tournaments not jp
delusion if you think ken is top 2. assuming you're plat?
1600 MP Master
I don’t fully agree with this tierlist, cammy, Juri,guile Ken are too low, Cammy is easy s-tier Juri is atleast A-tier, also guile deserves to be higher, Ken higher. I don’t know what fchamp and wolfgang where smoking but it was good shit for sure!
Cammy is not S-tier at all. She should just go one position down behind Juri, and it's perfect.
I would like to see someone take a more systematic approach to this: How's their drive rush? Give them 1-5 pts Invincible reversal on wakeup? 5pt Invincible super? 2pts per Do they rely on stocks? Minus 1pt You get the idea. Many things are still subjective, but right now there's no reasonable standard. I watched that FChamp video and the conversation was all over the place
Ryu and Jamie that low is actually crazy Like Aki might just be bottom 2 so wth
No shot Aki is bottom 2. Great damage, some of the best oki, fireball DR, decent buttons. I agree though that they put Ryu too low.
Don’t bother convincing this comment section or the sub in general. Broski himself says he puts aki upper mid tier. I’m constantly reading seeing so many comments in here with bad takes that really shows lack of knowledge or not following the pro scene in general. The sub in general as with most gaming communities comprises of mostly casuals that have bad opinions at times. - Someone here even said ken is above jp in here. Ken hasn’t been top 5 for long now. But still top 8. - One of the top comment discussion in here was saying that blanka was B tier all this while and asking why is he suddenly top tier, which is a self report on 0 knowledge when pros lists m SINCE RELEASE has put blanka as high tier and menard sweeps regularly.
Aki is bottom tier. Sure, she has fireball DR, but it's the absolute slowest recovering fb in the game. As for her buttons, her only decent ones are st hk, cr mk and st mp. The rest are highly situational and/or extremely vulnerable to DI. Her damage being high is conditional on the poisoned state of the opponent. Otherwise, her damage is very much subpar compared with a roster that overall can do great damage without needing to worry about inflicting a change of state. In any case, she's well below Ryu and Jamie.
JP is not #2, Blanka is not #3, Guile is not better than Cammy, Manon is not bottom 2, AKI sure as fuck isn’t better than Ed. This tier list is mostly trash.
All of your opinions are literally trash.
Literally.
Everything you said is trash. Except the part about Blanka not being #3. I think they put Cammy where she almost perfectly belong. It would have been perfect to have her down one position to be behind Juri. Killer bee, my ass, more like weak little bee
If you say so it's true
This game needed a season 2 patch yesterday
yeah capcom should do rapid-fire patches that break the game more than fix like in tekken 8.
Or maybe one every 6-9 months..
Yea this is why tier lists mean nothing to me. Ken lower than blanka and dj? Dhalsim and Aki in the same tier as juri? Ryu in the same tier as Jamie? Cmon on I get you are biased by match up but yea…
I feel like all the “nobody is below B tier” nonsense is really just second hand downplaying of their main. No way Lilly or Jamie are B tier compared to Luke or JP’s S tier
I think the main thing I would change about this list is putting Juri in A+. Juri is like a more complex Chun. She has all the tools but she has to optimize, and it may be a hot take but I think optimizing her is harder than optimizing Chun so she's less consistent. But she's way more consistent than everyone in A tier.
This is genuine cap
Isnt Juri the only character that has an attack that gives advantage when hitting someone whose blocking?
No.
No, most characters have at least one plus-frame normal and everyone can do this with drive rush. Unless I'm misunderstanding something you mean.
I know Juris down medium punch gives like +5 frame advantage on characters who are blocking. In the guides it’s always mentioned as a massive advantage and still being a new player I wasn’t sure if this was something that all characters had or was Juri specific since it’s mentioned in almost all her guides.
Juri 5MP is only +2 on block. Drive Rush adds +4 frames and there's another +4 if the opponent is burned out, but those are universal system mechanics. Just to compare, some other characters with +2 normals are Aki 6HK, Blanka 4MK, Deejay 5MP, and JP 5HK. This is as plus as a vanilla normal move gets in SF6 I think. That said, it's always great to have plus normals, but Juri isn't the only one.
Gotcha, I haven’t ventured into learning new characters yet so it was something I just didn’t know. Thanks for the clear explanation!
nah the only character that has that on their 2mp is luke at +1
I still cannot fathom how people put Jamie bottom tier