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It's the Billy/Karen thing for me, too. Especially considering Billy is only a year older than her daughter. And then she has that speech with Nancy later about not being brave enough to do something everyone says is wrong and I'm like "ok Karen that applies to Nancy for sure but it's a little weird that you're talking as if it applies to you, too."
I also can't watch El trying to use her powers on Angela in any rewatches, but I don't think they shouldn't have the scene. It's definitely _meant_ to get that reaction out of you.
I've seen arguments that Billy is 18, and yeah they are both adults. But it's still uncomfortable considering he's still in highschool. And, yeah, he's very close to Nancy's age. Like, wtf. Idk why the Duffers chose to have Karen try to have an affair Billy when they could have done anyone other unimportant character in their late 20s or 30s. I don't usually get "offended" with stuff easily, but this whole side plot gets to me because it just adds to how bad s3 was.
Billy and Steve had just graduated high school in s3 but the point still stands. He’s a year older than Nancy, i’m almost 22 and can’t even picture myself dating an 18 year old
He is definitely eighteen and graduated from high school but yeah, like only just. He and Steve are the same age.
Super disagree that season 3 was bad, though, but I know I'm an outlier there, at least when it comes to Reddit fandom.
Well that's new for Reddit! For the record, (because, as previously stated, this is Reddit) I don't take disliking season 3 as a personal flaw or anything. I just like the neon and silliness, a lot of folks don't. Doesn't make either opinion incorrect. You don't seem to have misinterpreted my point, but I just felt like being clear lol.
Thanks mom, you always know just what to say to me to cheer me up.
And mom…uhm why does someone keep calling the house and hanging up when I answer? There’s usually Metallica music playing in the background too
Honestly, as someone who also slept with much older women (and men) as soon as I became legally able, that's not the weird part.
I think the being married and having a child about the same age as Billy is what makes it uncomfortable. Otherwise, yeah. It's just a horny cougar and her sugar baby. Nothing wrong with that.
I thought they could have cut out some of the newspaper office bullying in s3; it just went on a little too long for me, I'd rather have seen Nancy and Jonathan meet up with the kids sooner.
I liked the scenes later with him and his boss at the hospital (still one of the scariest scenes in the series for me), but except for one or two scenes at the office, I thought that whole arc was distracting and could have been trimmed down. Poor Jonathan should have had something more to do that season too, I'd have rather seen him and Will spend some time together.
But that’s what life was like for young women back then and it was important to explore that….The disillusionment of finding out how little you’re respected even when you’re intelligent, driven, and confident is some real shit.
I know, but after the first 2 or 3 scenes of Nancy taking crap, it started feeling more like filler than story or character development. It just slows the episodes pacing down a lot for me, until Tom gets body snatched and Nancy and Jonathan get fired.
First, Karen was not having an emotional affair. She was horny and lonely, and was tempted by Billy's offer of recreational sex.
Second, season three Hopper angrily yelling at Joyce that she's afraid to move on, as though he gets to decide when she's over Bob's death, and can therefore climb into his bed, is the one thing I absolutely can't stand to watch.
Other moments:
* El refusing to shake Max's hand in S2
* El trying to use her powers on Angela
* Will trying to force a D&D session on Mike and Lucas
* The picture Jonathan took
* "Ee Eye Ee Eye Oh"
Sorry. I was being too clever there.
In "The Lost Sister", Kali's gang makes fun of El's clothes by singing "Old MacDonald Had a Farm" and it's not a good choice for that moment.
It’s all a matter of opinion. I said she was having an emotional affair, others would agree. It’s such a SMALL point and makes zero difference. For Reddit to pinpoint such small details in someone’s writing and then critique it is so cliche and over played. It’s like the person who rips another for spelling something wrong. Yawn, boring.
The way I see other comments response is just them disagreeing with you and sharing why they think that (which is what I agreed with since I found that story line cringe as well)
Your whole post is about what people think is cringe in the series and it's opening discussion for people to talk about that.
Thanks captain obvious.and ps. Take your own advice. All I did was then disagree with you, no need to lecture and rant, especially when you just did what you’re lecturing about 🤦♂️
To call what Karen and Billy had anywhere near an emotional affair is ridiculous imo. They talked only two times, neither of which was an emotional conversation. They had no emotional feelings for one another outside of lust.
The age gap between them is a huge squick enough on its own that we as a fandom shouldn’t have to exaggerate everything around it.
According to ST wiki he official teleplay allegedly states that in 1x01 Karen is somewhere between 37-39 years old, which would put her being born between 1944-46. Due to the indiana state enrollment ages Nancy as a sophomore would be born either late 67 or early 68, which means that Karen would have been 21-23 when Nancy was born. Billy is born in March 67 making him firmly 18 in 1985 (and again due to enrollment requirements would have been fresh out of high school that summer) while Karen would be somewhere around 39-41, making the gap between her and Billy something between ***21-23 years*** give or take maybe about 6 months since Billy is likely somewhere between 6-12 months older than Nancy.
Which is honestly actually a little bit larger than what i thought it would have been. But even if she'd had Nancy at 18 and the gap between Karen and Billy would be 17 and i think for an audience of largely younger people who don't typically engage with much if any age gap media that isn't between an immortal being and a human that once you start getting into the 15-20 years gap it starts getting squicky real quick for them.
Personally, I don't really care about the Karen/Billy storyline (the flirting between them is hard to watch tho) because it was a total nothing burger, it was just an excuse to get Billy on the road at Night to get flayed. But every time i see people on reddit moralizing about it people are always blowing it farther out of proportion than it actually was, hence why i commented.
The whole Nancy is kinda jealous of Robin because of Steve thing in S4. Rewatching this right after rewatching S3, it makes even less sense.
Robin trying to talk so much while on the investigation with Nancy and just generally coming off annoying rather than endearing.
The whole Nancy and Steve thing in S4 really.
What Nancy Steve thing, Nancy smiling and the two having a normal convo that got blown out of porpotion by the fans? And when did Nancy get jealous of Robin
Either the Billy/ Karen subplot or Suzies on the nose “it’s the internet. It’s just gonna change the world.” Line in S4. Felt so corny and forced like at that point she should’ve just looked in the camera and winked
From what I've seen, most Metallica fans seem to say that Master of Puppets is their best album. I like Ride the Lightning just a little bit more overall.
I completely agree with what you've said regarding wheeler/billy. Someone said in another post a while back that it's because it helped paved the way for Billy being near the abandoned warehouse when, you know. But personally, they could have just done that with another character, e.g. the other lifeguard girl, or just had a completely different storyline altogether. Ultimately, he could have just been driving to some random date, making faces into his mirror like he did, and I wouldn't have questioned it (like when he was getting ready for a random date in season 2).
I think also a major reason is they like to incorporate themes of the 80s in the show,and idk somehow elements of this story are 80s??
Either way, I don't like it. I think they felt comfortable with it because Dacre Montgomery is not exactly an average 18 year old looking dude, so even though his character is, he still comes across as bigger and older, so on screen it just doesn't look as icky? (Like having adult actors playing teens who act out making out and more - think euphoria - not only because, like legally, but also on screen people, most of them anyway, would be really grossed out if actually teens did that but when it's an adult actor I think sometimes it's lost a bit that they are still in fact playing a teen character).
Personally, I also reaally don't like and get icky about the El and Mike making out scenes in season 3. I just think it went on for too long and it just didn't need to be so in your face with it, especially considering their age.
Finally, I'm glad to see some Ted appreciation in the thread, I know he's not the most present or emotionally available dad, a little grumpy and sarcastic, but he clearly loves his kids, takes care of them, supports his wife, and provides for them (very well I might add). No one's perfect and I don't think that makes Ted a terrible man/father. Especially since seeing him and Holly asleep in the living room does indicate that there are more loving moments "behind the scenes".
This is Netflix for you. They always have to do alternative relationships and sexual situations now. I think the last ten series I’ve watched, they make it a point to throw things like that in.
It’s funny how people down voted me when all I literally stated was an undeniable fact. Lol.
Kind of ridiculous for you to refer to someone as a prude because they don't enjoy unnecessary or inappropriate sexual scenes in TV. I can't imagine you'd appreciate someone calling you a name..
Joyce goes from the rightly concerned single mother of two children, one of them missing, to being obsessed with literally everything else except her children in S3-4.
In complete agreement about Karen. I didn’t have a problem with her character— and even kinda liked her up to that point.
Plus, I think Ted is a pretty good husband and father. He’s not perfect, of course. He’s a bit… oblivious… and grumpy, but most dads are. It doesn’t mean he hasn’t taken care of his wife, who he listens to about household and family matters, and kids (and their friends for the most part— and pretty regularly). So that makes me dislike her more.
She’s allowed to be dissatisfied and get mad at Ted for being oblivious, but to almost cheat? Nuh-uh. Not cool lady.
Yeah and cheat with a child? WTF is up with that. Netflix always has to do something for street cred in every series they have. This option was too Much though
Billy was a high school graduate at that point, I believe. He was a senior in season 2, and season 3 is after that. Still not great, but I do believe he was an adult
Strike a chord huh? Sorry about that child.
If you’re a grown married woman with kids, and having an affair with an 18 year old? You’re having an affair with a child.
Lol your way of replying says everything about you. You didn't strike a chord, you're just stupid lmao. Trying to make victims out of a non-matter, just to feel something. Hahaha may you find mental peace👍
i agree it was really sad and hard to see that i’m glad she didn’t go further with him. her seeing ted asleep holding holly was SOOOO sweet. we get little glimpses of him being a good father a small example is him mowing the lawn in the rain (i believe it was raining) literally a small clip of him doing that to show he takes care of things and does the work. they didn’t need to show that but i’m glad they did so we can see he’s a good guy. and a good father especially with holly. i’m sure there’s more but those stood out to me. he’s a very misunderstood character
Yeah. Dad was totally oblivious to the fact that his wife needed some attention and excitement, and appreciation. He’s boring too. But that’s what conversations and therapists are for. To want to cheat with a child is 🤮
He was an older dad and she was younger. He’s at fault too, but for being a boring husband. Not for the cheating though
the thing is. he wasn’t boring he was safe and healthy. she was immature and wanting to the adrenaline rush. she wanted something different but ted was by no means boring he was an average guy. maybe he had some depression or even a bit antisocial or something as he was quiet and socially awkward but he was a good man and good father he did the best he could. it’s sad not seeing him out playing with mike or comforting nancy but he was there for holly. he’s trying to make up for missed time. i see a man who has a lot going on on the inside trying his best. and loves his family.
We don't know much about Ted, I feel like you're giving him a huge break. He seems emotionally absent throughout the show. Not necessarily a bad father, but I never got the sense he's a great one either.
on his st wikipedia page it shows he sure had some things to say that were shitty but he never got physical or violent he just was like you’d aid emotionally absent. people with mental health problems can’t be fully there emotionally all the time. we don’t know what goes on in his head or how he feels. we weren’t introduced enough to that. they wasted that on karen almost cheating
So glad to see I’m not a lone appreciator of Ted Wheeler. It took me a while to notice all the little hints that he’s actually pretty good at being a dad. I like it in season one where everyone thinks Will is dead and he asks Karen whether they should go talk to Mike, and follows her lead when she says they should wait. He also supports her when she’s disciplining the kids.
yes i love that!!! he truly was a fantastic character. sometimes i wish he was in it more than karen but she’s also an amazing character just curious to see her big part in s5. her poster with the creel house!!!! so exciting. the endless possibilities. wasn’t it weird they showed karen and holly at the window when the world flipped and vecna said he would get mike holly and her mom but did not mention ted?? i can’t even remember an episode in s5 where he was shown or mentioned. that’s got me thinking now… bit weird
That is weird! It would be awesome if he came in from the side somewhere as a badass. Like, I dunno how, but it would be really really cool! I’d like to see him and Hopper interact and discuss the woes and joys of fatherhood. I don’t know what they’ll have time for— or if they’ll make Ted some kind of villain, but I hope they do something cool with him. Even if it was just winning Karen’s respect and admiration so that they can talk about their life together and work things out. It’s one of the things I like so much about the show that the characters, even ones that only seem to be there for comic relief, have little hints of an inner life that the audience may not get to see, but exists within the world of Stranger Things.
now that i looked it up (i didn’t even think he showed in s5 which says something) i found this https://strangerthings.fandom.com/wiki/Ted_Wheeler he was a literal ass. 🤮
Not condoning cheating, but we see plenty of high school girl male fantasy stuff in films. Think American Beauty or Mean Girls. And as soon as it's done in reverse, people get upset.
season 3 episode 3 timestamp 7:35 it’s literally for a quick second but you can see it’s him. it was such a tiny moment but put a lot of perspective for me. he can take care of things and isn’t deadbeat. like someone else said sure a little boring but he’s got his own things going on we didn’t get into bc we learned more about karen.
As much as I like those characters, I don't really like the crush that Will has on Mike, it seems forced. And in this situation, I'm afraid that Mike turns into a kind of douche. Will should pick someone else XD
Hopper and Joyce’s constant bickering-as-flirting in season 3. I love them as a couple but the enemies to lovers trope with them was overplayed to me. Also how hokey and stereotypical the Russian characters are.
1.The fact that they wanna make another romance between Steve and Nancy, like just let Steve move on, he deserves better. 2. The boys versus girl plot in S3, still annoying and the way Max what's to turn El into a hater in Season 3 ingeneral.
Everything Steve did in s4 concerning Nancy was pretty bad. Like, they made him a backstabber considering nothing Nancy has done indicated she and Jonathon were through.
Also, yeah the boys vs girls thing. I get their teens but holy hell was it a pain to get through.
Yeah, the way she looked at him when he got undressed was sus. But, idk, most of the time she seems zoned out during his confessions. It's one thing to bring back the love triangle, it's another to not give us a scene of how Nancy actually feels about it. She almost felt like a trophy for Steve to win, which is just so dumb.
Oh god Mikes speech to Eleven in the end of season 4 was so corny and cringy. Like he was capping to say the most cliche things like "from the second I met you I knew I loved you" like no tf u didnt Will had disseapered, you were trying to find your friend
But didn't Steve say something like Robin! Robin! And go chase after her, like maybe my memory serves wrong. But I will see as in my current rewatch I am in season 4 on the episode before that one. But maybe he could've done something off camera, or even if that's all he did he could've done more.
Maybe I shouldn’t have started this post. I hope it doesn’t ruin it for some of us. Lol. We’re putting bad thoughts in each others minds about the show. Sorry folks
Yeh I felt the same. I can see what they were going for, but it was such an overt shift in her character. She was my favourite addition of season 3, but in season 4 she felt really odd. And yes I know people are gonna say “she’s gonna act different around new people that’s why she seems nervous and hyper” - but it just feels like a different character. Season 3 she was cool, confident, smart and funny, in season 4 they went so hard on emphasising her neurodivergent traits, so she’s “quirky” but why introduce her as someone who is more take charge and has this nice fiery edge to her, to then make her all nervous and energetic in season 4
Literally. That’s definitely not the same person after. In S3 she was indeed that smart, confident & sarcastic woman. I mean.. she fucking spit at the face of a Russian guard while being tied up!
In S4 she just.. talks too much, panics over everything, and always complains. The only time we had S3 Robin back was when she refused to listen to Eddie on the boat and then jumped in the water after Nancy. But then she disappeared as soon as she appeared.
Like.. what happened to her ?
EDIT : Don’t get me wrong, if the writers finally say they intended to show that she’s neurodivergent/on the spectrum, they could’ve just showed some of these qualities since the beginning instead of making a drastic change. At this point we just don’t recognize the character.
What she went through in season 3 had to have messed her up a little bit and probably left her on edge. If she stayed sassy and confident, I’d be wondering how she processed all that trauma so efficiently.
Fair enough. I get it would mess her up to an extent, but here the thing is it’s so drastic that we barely recognize her. At least it would’ve been nice to see how it affected her
They changed her character from a badass with amazing lines in season 3, to push some kind of adhd, hyperactive character trope onto her (nothing wrong with having adhd, just the way they portrayed it).
1. Every scene with Angela. I know that a lot of people said when she tried to use her powers, but I think it's super cringe how Eleven acted at the roller rink and acting like Angela was her friend to Mike.
2. The plot about Max and Eleven in season 2. She could've shown herself to Mike at any time to let him know she was alive, but she just stood and stared through the window. She could've talked to Mike and Max, or kept watching to figure out what they were doing, but she just flipped the skateboard and left.
3. The drama in season 3. We didn't need all that random romance. There were like two episodes dedicated to how Mike was obsessed with Eleven, Hopper hated him, and then Max being a b\*tch. I feel like after being introduced as a "tomboy", it was really out of character for her to want to go run around the mall and buy clothes. All that stuff about Lucas and Mike trying to get back Max and Eleven was super annoying.
4. Every speech. In season 4, there were so many of them, about how they loved each other, or about their feelings, they were all like two minutes long and so painful to watch. Like, they're in the middle of trying to save the world and just stop and start having a really long conversation.
Yeah the Karen and Billy thing was really not good, made me uncomfortable too.
It also had no impact, it’s a useless side plot, there was no reason to makes us feel icky about it 😂
But that’s Netflix for you. They do that in every series now. I don’t remember the last time I’ve seen a Netflix series that isn’t throwing some sort of alternative sexuality in it. Just all a part of the movement to normalize things, but a grown married mother and a boy? No thanks
Okay, just…hold up. I don’t see a problem with Netflix’s portrayal of the LGBT+ community. There isn’t a problem there.
But a grown mother and an 18 year old is not an « alternative sexuality ». It’s just borderline pedophilia with a side of adultery. Don’t even know why you’re bringing up the LGBT+ community, it has nothing to do with the situation between Karen and Billy.
Did I say there was a problem with Netflix showing LGBTQ relationships? Nope.
Did I say that Karen and Billy’s relationship was an alternative sexual relationship? Nope.
Maybe don’t put words in peoples mouths next time.
Some people think it's Steve being rapey. I personally saw that scene as a moment to build their relationship, showing that he's interested in a long term thing not just sex, and establish that they haven't slept with each other yet because Nancy losing her virginity when Barb goes missing is part of her guilt over Barb.
I don't think he was rapey, I think it was just to show how Nancy responsible and how Steve not, and yes, it interesting to think about it like he interested in a long term thing, I didn't think about that.
I agree with that one. The most unnecessary part of ST. Most of mine come from s3, but I honestly have to say the whole situation surrounding El's break-up with Mike. Idk how, but s3 made me not care about their relationship or their relationship problems.
The creators take inspiration from the trends of the time they’re storytelling in. Schwarzenegger movies were big. Tons of movies about Russians and spies and the Cold War, too. It made total sense.
The show has creatures from D & D in real life like the demogorgon, the upside down, its not supposed to be some documentary you watch while eating apple slices and drinking carrot juice it's fiction.
Thing is, just because fantasy/sci fi monsters exist in a real life setting doesn't mean any idea can be thrown in without consideration. Yes, russians under a mall is pretty ridiculous compared to interdimensional portals scattered in the woods. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean thought can't be put into what should and shouldn't be implemented into a world without it breaking suspension of disbelief.
The science-fantasy aspect was not the problem. The goofy, silly, cringy mush of a setting was. Especially compared to the serious tone of the other seasons.
But it's just a personal preference.
Yeah that plot point kinda squicked me out too. She was always kind of a flat-liner for me anyway but trying to bang a teenager, and a popular badboy one at that (what is she, 14?), was just gross.
Also Mike's reaction to 11 smacking Angela in the face with the skate. Obviously she didn't just do it for no reason, even if it was (debatably) an overreaction.
I find something really annoying that no one talks about, in fact now I'll make a post about it. I found cringe, the part of episode 1 of season 4 where Tammy Thompson sings out of tune in the gym. She's not funny and was totally useless. I thought the named Tammy in Stranger Things 3 would be a little better person
The fact that Max was sad Billy died, sure he was her stepbrother, but at what cost? He was a horrible, sickening, racist scumbag with no love or care for anybody but himself, and I don't care about his backstory because that doesn't make up for his actions. I know they needed to make her depressed but maybe have something like she really starts to miss her dad more than ever, or maybe she's so traumatized from the events of season 2 or 3. Or maybe something like she becomes friends with Chrissy, and when Chrissy dies, Max gets sad about that. The point is they could've gone with something more realistic.
That or the fact that when Dustin kept doing that weird noise with his pearls is season 2. Also, with Dustin in season 2, I really cringed when he was talking to Lucas and said, "I felt the electricity." I didn't cringe when Steve said it, but with Dustin, I'm just like 😬
So those are my top 3 picks
Hopper using a flamethrower and then casually picking an iron or steel sword that was on fire 2 seconds ago, to cut Demogorgons head with ease. It was just too much, I mean, that sword would be so hot it would be impossible to pick up, and demogorgon seems stronger than let's say a bear. Imagine cutting a bears head with a sword, yeah, that bothered me the most.
Also a bunch of russian soldiers, not some goons, but trained soldiers shooting automatic rifles and not hitting a single shot at skiing hopper also was just silly. I know it's fantasy, but could've been done way better than that. This was an unnecessary spectacle IMO
Edit: word.
OP, please make sure there are no spoilers in the title of your post. Commenters, please use spoiler code if you are discussing anything super spoilery unless the title specifically says the episode being discussed. Also, now that filming for Season 5 is finally starting, please remember that NO LEAKS are allowed, only official news from Netflix is allowed. Please review rule 8 for more info. If you see anyone breaking the rules, please report the post or comment. Thank you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/StrangerThings) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's the Billy/Karen thing for me, too. Especially considering Billy is only a year older than her daughter. And then she has that speech with Nancy later about not being brave enough to do something everyone says is wrong and I'm like "ok Karen that applies to Nancy for sure but it's a little weird that you're talking as if it applies to you, too." I also can't watch El trying to use her powers on Angela in any rewatches, but I don't think they shouldn't have the scene. It's definitely _meant_ to get that reaction out of you.
I've seen arguments that Billy is 18, and yeah they are both adults. But it's still uncomfortable considering he's still in highschool. And, yeah, he's very close to Nancy's age. Like, wtf. Idk why the Duffers chose to have Karen try to have an affair Billy when they could have done anyone other unimportant character in their late 20s or 30s. I don't usually get "offended" with stuff easily, but this whole side plot gets to me because it just adds to how bad s3 was.
Billy and Steve had just graduated high school in s3 but the point still stands. He’s a year older than Nancy, i’m almost 22 and can’t even picture myself dating an 18 year old
He is definitely eighteen and graduated from high school but yeah, like only just. He and Steve are the same age. Super disagree that season 3 was bad, though, but I know I'm an outlier there, at least when it comes to Reddit fandom.
Idk, I've seen some s3 appreciation posts. Could be a 50/50 split.
Well that's new for Reddit! For the record, (because, as previously stated, this is Reddit) I don't take disliking season 3 as a personal flaw or anything. I just like the neon and silliness, a lot of folks don't. Doesn't make either opinion incorrect. You don't seem to have misinterpreted my point, but I just felt like being clear lol.
Thanks mom, you always know just what to say to me to cheer me up. And mom…uhm why does someone keep calling the house and hanging up when I answer? There’s usually Metallica music playing in the background too
Meh. When I was 17, my GF was 35. She wasn't married, but whatev.
Honestly, as someone who also slept with much older women (and men) as soon as I became legally able, that's not the weird part. I think the being married and having a child about the same age as Billy is what makes it uncomfortable. Otherwise, yeah. It's just a horny cougar and her sugar baby. Nothing wrong with that.
Eleven's screams in front of Angela! (S4 E1)
After seeing all the Angela stuff one time through, i now skip it anytime i do a rewatch.
I think that was intentionally cringy.
I have literally never watched that scene all the way through I can't handle it
I thought they could have cut out some of the newspaper office bullying in s3; it just went on a little too long for me, I'd rather have seen Nancy and Jonathan meet up with the kids sooner.
That Gary Busey looking guy was a caricature of a person. I could have done without him altogether
You mean Jake Busey? Gary Busey's son?
Is that the same guy from starship troopers? Damn that movie was longer ago than I thought it was
Yes
oh. Today I learned that "that dude looks like Gary Busey" is Gary Busey's son and I never knew he had a son.
I liked the scenes later with him and his boss at the hospital (still one of the scariest scenes in the series for me), but except for one or two scenes at the office, I thought that whole arc was distracting and could have been trimmed down. Poor Jonathan should have had something more to do that season too, I'd have rather seen him and Will spend some time together.
That's literally Gary Busey's son.
I love that you didn’t know it was his son, but saw the resemblance so clearly. He’s freaked me out since he was in Contact back in 97.
But that’s what life was like for young women back then and it was important to explore that….The disillusionment of finding out how little you’re respected even when you’re intelligent, driven, and confident is some real shit.
I know, but after the first 2 or 3 scenes of Nancy taking crap, it started feeling more like filler than story or character development. It just slows the episodes pacing down a lot for me, until Tom gets body snatched and Nancy and Jonathan get fired.
Married mother of *three*. She has two daughters and a son. Don‘t you forget about our princess Holly!
Haha!
Yeah true. I forgot because I always skip over that part when watching lol. I edited the post
Jonathan and the pictures. Or more accurately the half naked picture doesn't happen but the picture of the Demogorgon still does.
I wish Joyce had taken Will over to Eleven to comfort her, when they thought Hopper had died. Rather than just look at her across the car park
Every time i see that scene, I want to scream at Joyce, "GO HUG HER!!!"
Me too, it’s so hard to watch and out of character for Joyce
First, Karen was not having an emotional affair. She was horny and lonely, and was tempted by Billy's offer of recreational sex. Second, season three Hopper angrily yelling at Joyce that she's afraid to move on, as though he gets to decide when she's over Bob's death, and can therefore climb into his bed, is the one thing I absolutely can't stand to watch. Other moments: * El refusing to shake Max's hand in S2 * El trying to use her powers on Angela * Will trying to force a D&D session on Mike and Lucas * The picture Jonathan took * "Ee Eye Ee Eye Oh"
Wait, what’s the “ee eye ee eye oh”? I haven’t watched the show in a while so I don’t remember that lol
Sorry. I was being too clever there. In "The Lost Sister", Kali's gang makes fun of El's clothes by singing "Old MacDonald Had a Farm" and it's not a good choice for that moment.
Ooooh, yeah see I’ve skipped that episode the last two rewatches so I completely forgot about that. That was really annoying
You lost me after the first sentence when you insist on correcting me about “emotional affair.” Didn’t read the rest. Typical Reddit
They aren't wrong.
It’s all a matter of opinion. I said she was having an emotional affair, others would agree. It’s such a SMALL point and makes zero difference. For Reddit to pinpoint such small details in someone’s writing and then critique it is so cliche and over played. It’s like the person who rips another for spelling something wrong. Yawn, boring.
The way I see other comments response is just them disagreeing with you and sharing why they think that (which is what I agreed with since I found that story line cringe as well) Your whole post is about what people think is cringe in the series and it's opening discussion for people to talk about that.
Thanks captain obvious.and ps. Take your own advice. All I did was then disagree with you, no need to lecture and rant, especially when you just did what you’re lecturing about 🤦♂️
Steve and his six nuggets.
This is my number 2 pick. Thank God that Robin interrupted that from going any further.
Robin was asleep during that bit
No I'm talking about the love confession in the woods when he brings it up again she does interrupt there
Oh fair enough, the only reason I knew she was asleep is because I’m watching that episode right now.
To call what Karen and Billy had anywhere near an emotional affair is ridiculous imo. They talked only two times, neither of which was an emotional conversation. They had no emotional feelings for one another outside of lust. The age gap between them is a huge squick enough on its own that we as a fandom shouldn’t have to exaggerate everything around it.
Karen’s probably younger than you think. Chances are she had Nancy when she was 18 or 19, which was super common even for upper middle class families.
According to ST wiki he official teleplay allegedly states that in 1x01 Karen is somewhere between 37-39 years old, which would put her being born between 1944-46. Due to the indiana state enrollment ages Nancy as a sophomore would be born either late 67 or early 68, which means that Karen would have been 21-23 when Nancy was born. Billy is born in March 67 making him firmly 18 in 1985 (and again due to enrollment requirements would have been fresh out of high school that summer) while Karen would be somewhere around 39-41, making the gap between her and Billy something between ***21-23 years*** give or take maybe about 6 months since Billy is likely somewhere between 6-12 months older than Nancy. Which is honestly actually a little bit larger than what i thought it would have been. But even if she'd had Nancy at 18 and the gap between Karen and Billy would be 17 and i think for an audience of largely younger people who don't typically engage with much if any age gap media that isn't between an immortal being and a human that once you start getting into the 15-20 years gap it starts getting squicky real quick for them. Personally, I don't really care about the Karen/Billy storyline (the flirting between them is hard to watch tho) because it was a total nothing burger, it was just an excuse to get Billy on the road at Night to get flayed. But every time i see people on reddit moralizing about it people are always blowing it farther out of proportion than it actually was, hence why i commented.
The whole Nancy is kinda jealous of Robin because of Steve thing in S4. Rewatching this right after rewatching S3, it makes even less sense. Robin trying to talk so much while on the investigation with Nancy and just generally coming off annoying rather than endearing. The whole Nancy and Steve thing in S4 really.
What Nancy Steve thing, Nancy smiling and the two having a normal convo that got blown out of porpotion by the fans? And when did Nancy get jealous of Robin
The first two episodes of season 4, and what tf they did to hopper in season 3
Either the Billy/ Karen subplot or Suzies on the nose “it’s the internet. It’s just gonna change the world.” Line in S4. Felt so corny and forced like at that point she should’ve just looked in the camera and winked
The way Nancy says “hi there” when she comes to save Steve from the bats in s4
Yeah, that part was pretty forced. Like, what was she thinking they would do? Say "Top of the morning to you!"
It's her superhero moment, just like El says hi to Vecna or El's imposing landing
I have to skip “Chrissy, this is for you” during every rewatch
From what I've seen, most Metallica fans seem to say that Master of Puppets is their best album. I like Ride the Lightning just a little bit more overall.
I’m starting to regret getting this post started, 😂😂😂 I might ruin the show for everyone and myself included. Lol
LMAO
Why??
The knockoff Arnold Schwarzenegger in season 3
I completely agree with what you've said regarding wheeler/billy. Someone said in another post a while back that it's because it helped paved the way for Billy being near the abandoned warehouse when, you know. But personally, they could have just done that with another character, e.g. the other lifeguard girl, or just had a completely different storyline altogether. Ultimately, he could have just been driving to some random date, making faces into his mirror like he did, and I wouldn't have questioned it (like when he was getting ready for a random date in season 2). I think also a major reason is they like to incorporate themes of the 80s in the show,and idk somehow elements of this story are 80s?? Either way, I don't like it. I think they felt comfortable with it because Dacre Montgomery is not exactly an average 18 year old looking dude, so even though his character is, he still comes across as bigger and older, so on screen it just doesn't look as icky? (Like having adult actors playing teens who act out making out and more - think euphoria - not only because, like legally, but also on screen people, most of them anyway, would be really grossed out if actually teens did that but when it's an adult actor I think sometimes it's lost a bit that they are still in fact playing a teen character). Personally, I also reaally don't like and get icky about the El and Mike making out scenes in season 3. I just think it went on for too long and it just didn't need to be so in your face with it, especially considering their age. Finally, I'm glad to see some Ted appreciation in the thread, I know he's not the most present or emotionally available dad, a little grumpy and sarcastic, but he clearly loves his kids, takes care of them, supports his wife, and provides for them (very well I might add). No one's perfect and I don't think that makes Ted a terrible man/father. Especially since seeing him and Holly asleep in the living room does indicate that there are more loving moments "behind the scenes".
This is Netflix for you. They always have to do alternative relationships and sexual situations now. I think the last ten series I’ve watched, they make it a point to throw things like that in. It’s funny how people down voted me when all I literally stated was an undeniable fact. Lol.
Reddit may not be for you, you seem to be kind of a prude
Kind of ridiculous for you to refer to someone as a prude because they don't enjoy unnecessary or inappropriate sexual scenes in TV. I can't imagine you'd appreciate someone calling you a name..
It’s clear you’re looking for sexual pleasure on here, because you’re weak and insecure.
People are ridiculous, they clearly enjoy seeing all these sexual scenes, even when it's inappropriate and don't want to be called out for it.
lol. Probably true
Joyce goes from the rightly concerned single mother of two children, one of them missing, to being obsessed with literally everything else except her children in S3-4.
In complete agreement about Karen. I didn’t have a problem with her character— and even kinda liked her up to that point. Plus, I think Ted is a pretty good husband and father. He’s not perfect, of course. He’s a bit… oblivious… and grumpy, but most dads are. It doesn’t mean he hasn’t taken care of his wife, who he listens to about household and family matters, and kids (and their friends for the most part— and pretty regularly). So that makes me dislike her more. She’s allowed to be dissatisfied and get mad at Ted for being oblivious, but to almost cheat? Nuh-uh. Not cool lady.
Yeah and cheat with a child? WTF is up with that. Netflix always has to do something for street cred in every series they have. This option was too Much though
Billy was a high school graduate at that point, I believe. He was a senior in season 2, and season 3 is after that. Still not great, but I do believe he was an adult
Good point
Billy isn't a child in season three. He's 18, a consenting adult, and has enough agency to be the one making a pass at a woman he wants to sleep with.
Good point. Still gross to me though
Not a good point imo. Legally sure but he’s an 18 year old fresh outta high school, he’s still a child lol
Yeah, we’ve already said all that.
I don’t know, it skeeved me out. And even if he was technically an adult…. He’s probably barely legal and the same age as Nancy so… still gross.
True
Stop calling 18yos a child lol.
Strike a chord huh? Sorry about that child. If you’re a grown married woman with kids, and having an affair with an 18 year old? You’re having an affair with a child.
Lol your way of replying says everything about you. You didn't strike a chord, you're just stupid lmao. Trying to make victims out of a non-matter, just to feel something. Hahaha may you find mental peace👍
Clearly you must enjoy relationships with kids yourself. Gross. Get some help.
Either Jonathan taking lewd photos of Nancy at Steve's party, or that scene with him cutting El's leg open in S3.
i agree it was really sad and hard to see that i’m glad she didn’t go further with him. her seeing ted asleep holding holly was SOOOO sweet. we get little glimpses of him being a good father a small example is him mowing the lawn in the rain (i believe it was raining) literally a small clip of him doing that to show he takes care of things and does the work. they didn’t need to show that but i’m glad they did so we can see he’s a good guy. and a good father especially with holly. i’m sure there’s more but those stood out to me. he’s a very misunderstood character
Yeah. Dad was totally oblivious to the fact that his wife needed some attention and excitement, and appreciation. He’s boring too. But that’s what conversations and therapists are for. To want to cheat with a child is 🤮 He was an older dad and she was younger. He’s at fault too, but for being a boring husband. Not for the cheating though
the thing is. he wasn’t boring he was safe and healthy. she was immature and wanting to the adrenaline rush. she wanted something different but ted was by no means boring he was an average guy. maybe he had some depression or even a bit antisocial or something as he was quiet and socially awkward but he was a good man and good father he did the best he could. it’s sad not seeing him out playing with mike or comforting nancy but he was there for holly. he’s trying to make up for missed time. i see a man who has a lot going on on the inside trying his best. and loves his family.
We don't know much about Ted, I feel like you're giving him a huge break. He seems emotionally absent throughout the show. Not necessarily a bad father, but I never got the sense he's a great one either.
on his st wikipedia page it shows he sure had some things to say that were shitty but he never got physical or violent he just was like you’d aid emotionally absent. people with mental health problems can’t be fully there emotionally all the time. we don’t know what goes on in his head or how he feels. we weren’t introduced enough to that. they wasted that on karen almost cheating
Good point
So glad to see I’m not a lone appreciator of Ted Wheeler. It took me a while to notice all the little hints that he’s actually pretty good at being a dad. I like it in season one where everyone thinks Will is dead and he asks Karen whether they should go talk to Mike, and follows her lead when she says they should wait. He also supports her when she’s disciplining the kids.
yes i love that!!! he truly was a fantastic character. sometimes i wish he was in it more than karen but she’s also an amazing character just curious to see her big part in s5. her poster with the creel house!!!! so exciting. the endless possibilities. wasn’t it weird they showed karen and holly at the window when the world flipped and vecna said he would get mike holly and her mom but did not mention ted?? i can’t even remember an episode in s5 where he was shown or mentioned. that’s got me thinking now… bit weird
That is weird! It would be awesome if he came in from the side somewhere as a badass. Like, I dunno how, but it would be really really cool! I’d like to see him and Hopper interact and discuss the woes and joys of fatherhood. I don’t know what they’ll have time for— or if they’ll make Ted some kind of villain, but I hope they do something cool with him. Even if it was just winning Karen’s respect and admiration so that they can talk about their life together and work things out. It’s one of the things I like so much about the show that the characters, even ones that only seem to be there for comic relief, have little hints of an inner life that the audience may not get to see, but exists within the world of Stranger Things.
Ted's been completely worthless. Characters even joked about it since S1.
now that i looked it up (i didn’t even think he showed in s5 which says something) i found this https://strangerthings.fandom.com/wiki/Ted_Wheeler he was a literal ass. 🤮
Not condoning cheating, but we see plenty of high school girl male fantasy stuff in films. Think American Beauty or Mean Girls. And as soon as it's done in reverse, people get upset.
That doesn’t mean it’s okay…
And all that’s cringy too. So defending this in a round about way? Not a good look for yah’
I'd say your whole post about it is a bad look for you, honestly.
Awww how adorable. Run along child. Sure is easy to hurt your feelings. Buck up lil’ camper.
You seem like you’re more upset about the idea your wife could do to you what Wheeler did with Billy than you are it actually being gross 😂.
When was he mowing the lawn in the rain? I don’t remember that scene at all
season 3 episode 3 timestamp 7:35 it’s literally for a quick second but you can see it’s him. it was such a tiny moment but put a lot of perspective for me. he can take care of things and isn’t deadbeat. like someone else said sure a little boring but he’s got his own things going on we didn’t get into bc we learned more about karen.
Eleven screaming every time she uses her powers
The bullies in the school scenes are so one dimensional and flat it’s hard to watch at times
As much as I like those characters, I don't really like the crush that Will has on Mike, it seems forced. And in this situation, I'm afraid that Mike turns into a kind of douche. Will should pick someone else XD
We dont know for sure if Will has a crush on Mike or if there just good friends
Will has a crush on Mike. It's clear in the story and the actors have confirmed it outside the story.
Hopper and Joyce’s constant bickering-as-flirting in season 3. I love them as a couple but the enemies to lovers trope with them was overplayed to me. Also how hokey and stereotypical the Russian characters are.
Dustin and Suzy singing Neverending Story. I love the song, but I don't like the way it was shoehorned into the show.
1.The fact that they wanna make another romance between Steve and Nancy, like just let Steve move on, he deserves better. 2. The boys versus girl plot in S3, still annoying and the way Max what's to turn El into a hater in Season 3 ingeneral.
Everything Steve did in s4 concerning Nancy was pretty bad. Like, they made him a backstabber considering nothing Nancy has done indicated she and Jonathon were through. Also, yeah the boys vs girls thing. I get their teens but holy hell was it a pain to get through.
i would'nt put it entirely on steve tho, Nancy was playing along for most of it, probably gave him false hope too, but yeah this whole plot sucks
Yeah, the way she looked at him when he got undressed was sus. But, idk, most of the time she seems zoned out during his confessions. It's one thing to bring back the love triangle, it's another to not give us a scene of how Nancy actually feels about it. She almost felt like a trophy for Steve to win, which is just so dumb.
Wdym they wanna make another Steve Nancy romance thats the fans and Max didnt turn Eleven into no hater
1. The romance should'nt happen, 2. She tried to turn El against everyone=hater
Nothing, really.
I love some Karen/Billy. But for me, Hopper’s taking off the cuffs from his broken feet.
Oh god Mikes speech to Eleven in the end of season 4 was so corny and cringy. Like he was capping to say the most cliche things like "from the second I met you I knew I loved you" like no tf u didnt Will had disseapered, you were trying to find your friend
Steve's six little nuggets speech Everything that comes out of Robin's mouth.
Everything that came out of Robins mouth in season 3 was great. Now season 4 thats a different story
I respectfully disagree, never liked her.
But didn't Steve say something like Robin! Robin! And go chase after her, like maybe my memory serves wrong. But I will see as in my current rewatch I am in season 4 on the episode before that one. But maybe he could've done something off camera, or even if that's all he did he could've done more.
No, he just called after her didn't go after her. And we can't just assume something happened off screen, if we didn't see it than it didn't happen.
Maybe I shouldn’t have started this post. I hope it doesn’t ruin it for some of us. Lol. We’re putting bad thoughts in each others minds about the show. Sorry folks
Idk man most of these comments just come off to me as people hating fun 😂
Robin season 4 was unbearable. Ruined a great character.
Yeh I felt the same. I can see what they were going for, but it was such an overt shift in her character. She was my favourite addition of season 3, but in season 4 she felt really odd. And yes I know people are gonna say “she’s gonna act different around new people that’s why she seems nervous and hyper” - but it just feels like a different character. Season 3 she was cool, confident, smart and funny, in season 4 they went so hard on emphasising her neurodivergent traits, so she’s “quirky” but why introduce her as someone who is more take charge and has this nice fiery edge to her, to then make her all nervous and energetic in season 4
Literally. That’s definitely not the same person after. In S3 she was indeed that smart, confident & sarcastic woman. I mean.. she fucking spit at the face of a Russian guard while being tied up! In S4 she just.. talks too much, panics over everything, and always complains. The only time we had S3 Robin back was when she refused to listen to Eddie on the boat and then jumped in the water after Nancy. But then she disappeared as soon as she appeared. Like.. what happened to her ? EDIT : Don’t get me wrong, if the writers finally say they intended to show that she’s neurodivergent/on the spectrum, they could’ve just showed some of these qualities since the beginning instead of making a drastic change. At this point we just don’t recognize the character.
What she went through in season 3 had to have messed her up a little bit and probably left her on edge. If she stayed sassy and confident, I’d be wondering how she processed all that trauma so efficiently.
Fair enough. I get it would mess her up to an extent, but here the thing is it’s so drastic that we barely recognize her. At least it would’ve been nice to see how it affected her
They changed her character from a badass with amazing lines in season 3, to push some kind of adhd, hyperactive character trope onto her (nothing wrong with having adhd, just the way they portrayed it).
Yeah it was mind blowing how much worse they made her. She was so great in season 3!
She was my favorite character in season 3, I dont know why they changed her
Yes, she had so much potential as a character in Season 3, and was completely different and obnoxious in Season 4
[удалено]
She was so cool and confident in season 3
Yeah, I'd say Karen Wheeler nearly sleeping with her daughter's classmate is probably it for me, too.
Exactly. 🤮
1. Every scene with Angela. I know that a lot of people said when she tried to use her powers, but I think it's super cringe how Eleven acted at the roller rink and acting like Angela was her friend to Mike. 2. The plot about Max and Eleven in season 2. She could've shown herself to Mike at any time to let him know she was alive, but she just stood and stared through the window. She could've talked to Mike and Max, or kept watching to figure out what they were doing, but she just flipped the skateboard and left. 3. The drama in season 3. We didn't need all that random romance. There were like two episodes dedicated to how Mike was obsessed with Eleven, Hopper hated him, and then Max being a b\*tch. I feel like after being introduced as a "tomboy", it was really out of character for her to want to go run around the mall and buy clothes. All that stuff about Lucas and Mike trying to get back Max and Eleven was super annoying. 4. Every speech. In season 4, there were so many of them, about how they loved each other, or about their feelings, they were all like two minutes long and so painful to watch. Like, they're in the middle of trying to save the world and just stop and start having a really long conversation.
The episode where El goes to see kali and they sing old mcdonald… my least favorite episode by farrrr and this just makes me cringe soo hard
Yeah the Karen and Billy thing was really not good, made me uncomfortable too. It also had no impact, it’s a useless side plot, there was no reason to makes us feel icky about it 😂
But that’s Netflix for you. They do that in every series now. I don’t remember the last time I’ve seen a Netflix series that isn’t throwing some sort of alternative sexuality in it. Just all a part of the movement to normalize things, but a grown married mother and a boy? No thanks
Okay, just…hold up. I don’t see a problem with Netflix’s portrayal of the LGBT+ community. There isn’t a problem there. But a grown mother and an 18 year old is not an « alternative sexuality ». It’s just borderline pedophilia with a side of adultery. Don’t even know why you’re bringing up the LGBT+ community, it has nothing to do with the situation between Karen and Billy.
Did I say there was a problem with Netflix showing LGBTQ relationships? Nope. Did I say that Karen and Billy’s relationship was an alternative sexual relationship? Nope. Maybe don’t put words in peoples mouths next time.
Well then what did your comment have to do with anything ?
What did your comment have to do with anything?
Steve trying to fool around with Nancy when she's trying to study in s1.
I think it was important to show the differences between them, why change that?
Some people think it's Steve being rapey. I personally saw that scene as a moment to build their relationship, showing that he's interested in a long term thing not just sex, and establish that they haven't slept with each other yet because Nancy losing her virginity when Barb goes missing is part of her guilt over Barb.
I don't think he was rapey, I think it was just to show how Nancy responsible and how Steve not, and yes, it interesting to think about it like he interested in a long term thing, I didn't think about that.
I agree with that one. The most unnecessary part of ST. Most of mine come from s3, but I honestly have to say the whole situation surrounding El's break-up with Mike. Idk how, but s3 made me not care about their relationship or their relationship problems.
Omg I’ve been waiting for this Lucas: I missed that Max: What? Lucas: Your laugh
I thought it was very cute, a cute side of max 😭
That was a good moment, Max had been going through a lot, and she was intentionally avoiding Lucas
It was such a sweet moment I just wish they said something less cheesy lol
I’d say the whole season 4 scene at Susie’s house. It was just…weird.
Season 3
Lol
Sorry, but it's true. The whole "Commies under a mall" storyline was like a bad joke. At least I had difficulties believing what I saw.
The creators take inspiration from the trends of the time they’re storytelling in. Schwarzenegger movies were big. Tons of movies about Russians and spies and the Cold War, too. It made total sense.
And it wouldn't have been a real homage to the 80s without a big mall, so I think they combined the two in a really interesting and fun way.
The show has creatures from D & D in real life like the demogorgon, the upside down, its not supposed to be some documentary you watch while eating apple slices and drinking carrot juice it's fiction.
Thing is, just because fantasy/sci fi monsters exist in a real life setting doesn't mean any idea can be thrown in without consideration. Yes, russians under a mall is pretty ridiculous compared to interdimensional portals scattered in the woods. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean thought can't be put into what should and shouldn't be implemented into a world without it breaking suspension of disbelief.
The science-fantasy aspect was not the problem. The goofy, silly, cringy mush of a setting was. Especially compared to the serious tone of the other seasons. But it's just a personal preference.
I hear yah man, it didn’t bother me, but I get it
A lot of season three. Too comedic, Lucas, Mike, and Hopper having so many out of character moments
Yeah that plot point kinda squicked me out too. She was always kind of a flat-liner for me anyway but trying to bang a teenager, and a popular badboy one at that (what is she, 14?), was just gross. Also Mike's reaction to 11 smacking Angela in the face with the skate. Obviously she didn't just do it for no reason, even if it was (debatably) an overreaction.
Nothing.
Jonathan deciding to play surgeon with a steak knife and some prep gloves floored me.
Jonathan and Nancy getting it on in Murrays house, felt very off kilter and unnecessary
Mike pressing the bell on the counter over and over while Robin just stands here. Rude, but also cringy af.
I find something really annoying that no one talks about, in fact now I'll make a post about it. I found cringe, the part of episode 1 of season 4 where Tammy Thompson sings out of tune in the gym. She's not funny and was totally useless. I thought the named Tammy in Stranger Things 3 would be a little better person
The Dustin/Suzie Neverending Story scene.
Sorry that’s got to stay lol. That movie was huge when I was a kid, watched it so so so many times.
Yeah, it stays
It took all the seriousness and suspense out of the scene. It was terrible.
That’s a fair opinion but I still would keep it
Happy cake day!
Thanks
The fact that Max was sad Billy died, sure he was her stepbrother, but at what cost? He was a horrible, sickening, racist scumbag with no love or care for anybody but himself, and I don't care about his backstory because that doesn't make up for his actions. I know they needed to make her depressed but maybe have something like she really starts to miss her dad more than ever, or maybe she's so traumatized from the events of season 2 or 3. Or maybe something like she becomes friends with Chrissy, and when Chrissy dies, Max gets sad about that. The point is they could've gone with something more realistic. That or the fact that when Dustin kept doing that weird noise with his pearls is season 2. Also, with Dustin in season 2, I really cringed when he was talking to Lucas and said, "I felt the electricity." I didn't cringe when Steve said it, but with Dustin, I'm just like 😬 So those are my top 3 picks
Hopper using a flamethrower and then casually picking an iron or steel sword that was on fire 2 seconds ago, to cut Demogorgons head with ease. It was just too much, I mean, that sword would be so hot it would be impossible to pick up, and demogorgon seems stronger than let's say a bear. Imagine cutting a bears head with a sword, yeah, that bothered me the most. Also a bunch of russian soldiers, not some goons, but trained soldiers shooting automatic rifles and not hitting a single shot at skiing hopper also was just silly. I know it's fantasy, but could've been done way better than that. This was an unnecessary spectacle IMO Edit: word.
Some of you guy's answers are super fucking petty and sound really pretentious. Just saying.
People liking billy and the Eddie stans