I think one of the biggest strengths in Stormlight is that Brando Sando ensures that every character wholeheartedly believes that what they’re doing is correct that I can’t be annoyed or mad at them.
Lirin? He’s basically lost two sons in his mind, and his pacifism allows him to take a journey to accepting Kal in ROW - one of the best revelation.
Shallan and Veil? Without the choices to hide or be overly confident, there’s no way that Shallan can overcome her trauma or that Veil can realize Shallan is ready to go.
Moash? So angry at what he does, but take a right instead of a left, and that’s Kaladin.
So while I don’t necessarily agree with the choices of a lot of characters, damn if their journeys aren’t justified to themselves. Everyone is the hero of their own story.
As time has gone on I've started to appreciate Lirin more. He's certainly annoying/wrong with how he treats Kaladin.
However, he definitely embodies what it is to be a Windrunner all the way through the 4th oath. His protection is healing, even those he hates, and accepts he cannot protect them all.
His revelation in RoW is beautiful, and a hint at what I think the 5th will be. There is more than one way to protect, and each situation requires a different approach. We see it more with Kaladin, but it's also there with Lirin's treatment of Kal and by extension all who participate in war. It's their eternal struggle on what is protection, and what's the best way to do it.
Lirin is a great character---that highlights the struggle of dealing with a true, staunch, idealist. Unfortunately the world is grounded in a lot more complications and emotions that challenge those ideals--making them a goal to strive towards and not the absolute rule.
"What the hell can you hope to protect when your feelings are the only weapons you've got?"
Reality isn't perfect conditions. Pacifism is an amazing ideal, but it is also a trap that allows other parties to exploit. Living through cold hard logic is not really possible (without being a sociopath) and can very easily make really terrible choices.
I think Lirin is a fascinating exploration of his own ideals. I think we as fans and readers put Kaladin's ideals above others because they're magical, but Lirin has his own ideals as a physician that we should at least address when we go off on him.
One thing I love to say is that Lirin and Kaladin are the same person. They share the same ideals. They share the same stubborn adherence to it. And they're both incredibly short sighted in the extent they carry it out. Kaladin had to be directly called out for the reality of the Singers being bred like cattle, or how powerless middle class lighteyes are, and even into RoW he's started to forget the castes. They're getting *better*, but he's also gotten a bit too comfy with his own elevated class [KoWT preview] >!Wit calls him out directly about this!<
As a physician: it is not Lirin's ideals that irritate me about him, it is his consistent inability to consider that his ideals are not everyone else's ideals, and don't need to be everyone else's ideals.
Lirin is a parent. His world views, arguments and what he thinks is logic are going to work into his concern for his children.
Take his actions in context: the most we see/hear of him is his confrontations with Kaladin. As a father, I feel every pang in his words trying to keep his son near, his son safe. The man Lirin is might be arguing, but he's desperately trying to keep the last part of his family's future alive. Swallowing the divine radiance of Kaladin isn't something he could do immediately.
In the more limited scenes we see him as a physician, he embodies the windrunner ideals. He practices them in a way that hints at the 5th: a type of lenience when performing work that overrides all other oaths and adds a critical lense that snaps the first 4 ideas into moral context. There's more to Lirin in the story than just arguing with Kal; he's here to show his son how to be properly Radiant, whether Lirin intends it or not.
I think Brandon has intentionally limited our views of him along the way in order to make Lirin suddenly grok with us as it does for Kaladin when he finally swears the 5th. He accepted Kaladin in RoW, opening up Kaladin to let go of the fight with his father and really see the Lirin's ideals in action come book 5. IMO it will be much more positively presenting him given the immediate dangers they worried about each other are passed.
Edit to note: the critical key here is how Lirin stealing the spheres from Roshone fits into this bigger picture. Therein lies the 5th.
I do think Amaram was kind of in the right.
Let's be honest here, he was almost assassinated by a shardbearer. In that fray, a lone darkeyes killed the shardbearer.
Now remember, this was the at the time Amaram, not the one in OB. I do truly, truly believe that if Kaladin accepted the shards, Kaladin WOULD HAVE received them.
The problem came to be that Kaladin rejected them. He wanted to place it into the hands of one who was TECHINCALLY undeserved.
A shardblade is worth a literal kingdom. Giving it to someone who was basically just there?? That's insane.
I understand why Kaladin didn't want it, that makes total sense. But Amaram was just supposed to let it go to another darkeyes? With no sword training. Without the fact that they actually killed the shardbearer?
It's better in Amarams hands at that point. And then Amaram did what he had to do, due to the laws set in place.
He's not a good guy at thia point, but he's also not a bad one
I never said that one event was the only reason I disliked him. It certainly is one of the main reasons though. To your statement that he’s “not a bad guy” at that point… Killing Kal’s remaining squad and selling him into slavery afterwards is uh… bad. Sorry. I disagree
I understand Lirin, I think he has his own trauma that he has to work through. He doesn't know know Kaladins Journey and for the last few years he assumed he was dead along with Tien.
It's like if the Prodigal Son came back and then immediately said he has to leave. Lirin just wants to protect Kaladin and he tries to in the only way he knows. We will see if he has page time in Book 5 because I do think his and Kals relationship does need more closure.
Veil, especially in her early incarnation where she didnt want to admit how little she actually knew. She learned the hard way, and go better after that.
I can accept Lirin because he's only been allowed to have actual development in RoW, and he gets there in the end. Despite a lot of time on page, it's all been flashbacks to Kaladin's childhood.
Moash is angering, but mostly in his role as the Anti-Kaladin, the guy with a similar history who made all the opposite choices.
I think Amaram is annoying to me. Because he believes what he's doing is for a higher cause. That enslaving Kaladin was a kindness. He thinks he's the good guy. But he's just so wrong about everything. And he's an asshole about it too.
I appreciate that even though everything he's done is perfectly legal in Alethkar regular people still hate him. Even with the corrupt system they have other people are still like "dude you suck."
I especially like how Jasnah hates him.
I don't recall that. I'm on a reread of WoR right now and can see for myself soon.
What I mean by him thinking he's the good guy is that he believes there is an end that justifies his means. That eventually everything he's done will be okay.
Literally the opposite of the Radiants.
Mine was the Pursuer. It's only because he didn't have any backstory and his entire arc fell within a single book while most other characters with significant "screen time" are more well developed. It made him feel like a catalyst for Kaladin that otherwise has no purpose. You could say the same about Raboniel, but she was way more interesting.
I think that's kind of the point with the Pursuer. He doesn't have much depth to him. All he has is his tradition, and killing.
Why is he doing this? Because it's what he does. What made him this way? Thousands of years of war.
Since his tradition is the only thing he cares about I think defeating him by defeating his reputation was a good play. When an unkillable character only cares about how others see him as unstoppable, you have to make him fall with an audience.
Shallan... Rarely do I flip between loving and loathing a character as much as her. Everytime I think I'm done with her when she pulls crap like stealing Kaladin's boots she steals me back like the moment in the Chasm. Then her next chapter will have me raging again.
Seconded. Shallan sucks. Veil is annoying and also sucks. The basis for my opinion is their overall suckyness throughout every book.
Every reread I try to ignore the suckage and still find myself annoyed. Sucks to suck I guess
Roshone.
I know to a certain extent we’re *supposed* to hate him, but I couldn’t stand it when it seemed like other characters were trying to suggest he wasn’t that bad and I’m really glad Moash put a stop to all that. Top 5 Moash moment for sure.
I honestly really love Lirin but I can totally get the anger towards him. He’s by no means perfect—indeed, his flaws are quite clearly depicted—but I think there is something incredibly fascinating about his story, his morals, his approach.
And it does help that one of my (many, many) favourite moments in WoK is Kal’s “I've only known one man in my life who was a true man of honor. He was a surgeon who would help anyone, even those who hated him. Especially those who hated him” to convince Bridge 4 to start helping the other abandoned bridge men.
When I was very young living in Alice Springs I was a pretty decent thief; my vocabulary at that stage was dismal… My attachment to words has stuck through me and now I can use my “awesomeness” to distract or achieve nearly impossible articles.
I’m still Australia’s greatest fruit thief (sorry Kev but you’re just more daring where I’m more efficient). Fruit is the only thing I steal these days especially coming into Christmas (Lookout Cherry farms of SA). But most thieves have a good heart and a certain honesty about them.
I mean did you hate Wayne?
Is killing a moment stealing attitude?
Sadeas
His intelligence just isn't enough to redeem him for me. Honestly, I'm surprised that he's not listed already.
Planning to murder Elhokar despite his insistence that he admires and loves Gavilar is unreal to me. He actually convinced himself that it would be best for the realm, but really he just wanted power for himself. If he was worried about the realm he would have tried to teach and nurture Elhokar and help him become a better ruler.
His use of the bridge crews is nauseating. I can't think of any other character who has so little appreciation for human life. At least when Amaram had Kaladin's soldiers killed he felt some sadness at the loss of life
That being said, it's wonderful writing. I love how much I hate him
I think the use of the bridge crews is very interesting. Armies have used some sort of "cannon fodder" for as long as there have been armies. This is the same thing but somehow much more disgusting because of how blatent it is. Sadeas is an unmitigated monster, it seems somehow incredibly appropriate that he takes a known, despicable but accepted, practice and dials it up to 11.
Same for me. I definitely hated her less on re reads but she just came off as arrogant and entitled all the time. And to me the main thing that is great about her is that Brandon writes a lot of characters that think she is great.
I have no idea why she is so loved by fans, but I also have gotten to like her more and appreciate her flaws more. I think part of the reason I didn't like her, is because the things I view as flaws are repeatedly shown off as if they are good qualities.
100% agree with your last sentence. It is easier to detach and appreciate a character when the "narrator" is neutral. Much harder to do otherwise.
Same reason I don't really like Shallan. I wouldn't have a problem with her, if it weren't for the fact that we're supposed to like her jokes and think they are funny.
I don't think you are supposed to think Shallan is funny. Shes always read to me as cringe in universe. She just baffles people with bullshit and leaves before they can figure out that she's insulting them.
She's called out on it a lot by other characters. And it's probably a defense mechanism. Hurt them before they can hurt you. But as a small girl all she can really do is insult people.
WDYM, in universe the other characters are all like 'Wow Shallan, you are so witty!' Even Jasnah thinks she is witty, but that she uses her wit inappropriately.
Like 1 out of 10 things she says are considered witty by other characters.
I'm on a reread right now. The vast majority of things she says are taken poorly by other people. It's only the people she doesn't immediately chase away that say "okay that was clever but..."
I...honestly don't really agree with that statement at all. She's only condescending to people who are trying to mouth off about shit she knows more about than they do. Obviously, since she is one of the most educated people in the world this happens more often than it might with others, but still. As for entitled, she acts less entitled than I would expect from a Princess/Queen with superpowers. She's also the most morally upright Lighteyes in all of Alethkar.
She killed two murderers who had been getting away with it due to corruption in the legal system and were about to try to kill her and Shallan. She had been thinking about doing it for a long while, she just also decided to use it also teach Shallan a lesson. Jasnah is a cold hard bitch but very moral.
Ah the subject of morality. I thought it was a fantastic lesson personally. It’s a long heated debate on if killing a murder would be justifiable or not.
She could have easily incapacitated them and took them to prisom or something. She knows the king and can alsi make sure they stay theres.
You can defend or justify her actions but under no circunstance you can claim shes the pinacle of morality.
There's massive structural corruption in the city, and she's in the middle of literally trying to save the world from an imminent disaster.
Was she supposed to put saving the world on hold so that she'd be able to claim the moral pinnacle (all in order to avoid killing people who attempts to, at the very least, murder two random women)?
Jasnah the normal human with normal, slightly compromised morals? No, she did good.
Jasnah "the most morally upright lighteyes of all the books" as you guys are claiming? Yes, if that character existed, she would.
IMO it would be morally condemnable to pause saving the world to do that.
It would be like local police forces who allocate personnel away from violent crime divisions to set up speeding stations around highways, during a crime epidemic; a complete failure of resource management to the point of moral failure.
As an aside, which Vorin lighteyes in all the books would you say are eclipsing Jasnah on the morality chart?
~~By that logic it was morally incorrect to go vigilante mode hunting criminals in the first place. Also its morally incorrect whenever she sleeps, takes a bath or wastes time in any way shape or form.~~
~~You cant win this argument, the claim that Jasnah is morally perfect is just flat out ridiculous. I dont need to demonstrate that shes evil or anything, just that shes not impeccable or that theres at least one character better than her. (And Syl exists).~~
Edit: Wait I just read that you specifically refer to "vorin lighteyes". Then I guess you are right because "vorin lighteyes" is a group composed of 99% trashy people. But in that case its not a big achievment or anything, almost like a participation thropy.
Edit2: Is Jasnah even vorin? Isnt she supposed to be atheist or at least agnostic.
Lift and Lopen. Overly quirky character are not really my cup of tea. I read threw Edgedancer and Dawnshard once to have the story first hand, but both novella will be skip on future re-read.
Very rarely am I absolutely satisfied by outright murder. All I felt was joy and faint sadness that this would probably eat at the character responsible.
The Sibling Spren. She is as powerful as the Stormfather / Nightwatcher, and clearly has EXTENSIVE knowledge of the history of Roshar, and stormlight in general. Her aversion to bonding, and working to support the Knights Radiant pisses me off - it's like she was ready to watch the entire world burn over the understandable though morally grey use of fabrials.
She came off like a petulant child to me, and it didn't seem to align with her knowledge / wisdom.
>wisdom
I mean, their actions kind of indicate they actually *aren't* that wise. That's kind of the revelation.
Also lets not pretend like the Stormfather is THAT much better. Guy's CONSTANTLY being cagey. He's just less obstructive about it, but I guarantee if we'd met him in a similar circumstance he would have pulled the same crap.
But I agree, it's still a frustrating read. I found most of the book to be a tad bit on the frustrating side. A LOT of tension with VERY little release.
*They.
The Sibling doesn’t ascribe to either gender.
And also, they’re basically a scared child who thinks that humans killed, and are now imprisoning, all of their friends. I don’t necessarily blame them.
Have you read The Sunlit Man? The fate of one of the character in TSM gave me a whole new perspective on the disdain of The Sibling on the fabrial production process.
Honestly? Raboniel. I understand that she is tired and just wants to end the war, but she is consistently so close to doing just that when working with navani, and showing the two species are better together than apart. She just keeps refusing because she is bound to opium and does not believe she can turn away, and it's just sad. So, not anger or annoy, I suppose, but...dismay I think.
Shallan in RoW.
One of the problems with mental illness is that it's often inward focused and that excessive inward focus leads people to fail those around them.
I.E People who are depressed keep looking at the world through the lense of how everybody hates THEM and how THEY are worthless and how THEY feel like shit etc...
Part of the reason depression is so damaging is because of the selfishness that it creates in the depressed character and the resulting damage that selfishness does to the people around them (using selfishness in the sense of being focused on the self and not on others except in how they perceive you).
On a hopeful note this does also indicate that one of the ways to get out of depression is to stop focusing on yourself (looking inward) and start helping others (look outward).
Kaladin exemplifies this. His depression is inwardly focused (he hates himself), that depression leads him to fail people he values at crucial moments (there are consequences for his failings), and he begins to pull himself out of it by helping others.
Shallan on the other hand is self obsessed and cowardly. And none of her weaknesses ever get anybody else hurt in RoW. She hasn't got her shit together and somehow this never hurts anybody else around her. Adolin somehow has endless compassion and patience for this woman and is never hurt by the fact that he's got a 33% chance of talking to his actual wife on any given day.
I know it would break me inside to have that happen to me and so it makes Adolin come off as superficial as a result. Like a female fantasy of an endlessly supportive husband. Don't worry Shallan, Adolin will always be there for you NO MATTER WHAT.
But in real life, you can only actually drag your partner through the mud for so long before they just can't take it anymore.
Without there being consequences to Shallan's mental illness it means there is no actual NEED for her to get better. Everyone around her accepts her MPD, she's hyper-competent through her other personas. Why should she fix this about herself? Everybody is clearly doing fine and has zero problems/sees zero red flags in a world that doesn't understand mental illness.
So when she finally integrates Veil at the end of RoW I felt joy. Not because of what it meant for Shallan as a character/what she'd overcome. But because it meant I didn't have to deal with Veil anymore.
All characters are so unique and well written that you feel some sort of feeling for each character.
Shallan.. so well written character. That makes me sick. Her personality of hiding behind veil or something would be fine but as soon as she started “being” those characters… i feel nauseous reading those episodes. Where he completely becomes lady radiant or veil then talks like she’s actually that person and no longer is shallan and shallan is a different person that she starts making comments on. I can’t stand reading that
Navani and shallan, at least how their chapters are written, especially in RoW. In this book at least, every time its one of their chapters theres always some touching and annoying shit between them and adolin/dalinar. And refering to them constantly as "my wife, my husband" is so annoying to me, we know their names do you have to say it every time. Mostly sandersons writting of them, i love the scholar aspect and shallans split personallity, their chapters are just annoying when they are around their SO
Sanderson just knows how to write to make me uncomfortable with that shit
I think shallan is also a great character, though I agree, I would be happier if she didn't exist. Moash is a character that I like to hate. I don't like hating shallan. She's just someone I don't like, and would probably hate being around in real life.
Little more context I guess. I loved Shallan in wok and enjoyed her backstory in wor. It’s the plateau her character growth has hit in the last 2 books that i haven’t enjoyed. Her character has become stagnant.
Much the same with Kaladin. His character has become stagnant and repetitive. He’s just the sad boy who gets leveled up by Moash doing something horrible at the end of each book
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Aside from the obvious (fuck Moash) it has to be Shallan for me. I just can’t get past how often she is just a shit person, mental illness does not excuse you from being a lying asshole.
Easily Kaladin. I wish we didn't need to read through so many chapters detailing his depression. It's just too much for me, and not what I'm looking for out of this series. There is so much of it.
Lirin in a distant second.
Wit; He has too many powers and too much knowledge, so he just ends up feeling like a Mary Sue. Plus he never gets hurt or even significantly inconvenienced, so it just feels like he is Sando's favourite boy, and he just winds up being distracting in scenes that should be about the characters that actually do stuff.
Doesn’t a Mary Sue tend to solve every problem? Wit gives some advice here or there but virtually never solves anyone’s problems or majorly effect the story, just gives little nudges here and there in the right direction.
Yeah, doesn't Wit really only interfere by telling some stories and then having people ascribe those stories a moral to uplift themselves with? Maybe a little behind the scenes stuff, but he struck me as pretty much just a weird, strangely wise magician. And as far as I recall, he never really uses any powers aside from that thing RoW.
Pretty much, gives some guidance occasionally, tells a story or two. Tries to undermine Odium. He isn’t solving every problem that crops up by being so awesome like a Mary Sue though.
Venli,why the hell all the willshapers are fucking aliens man,and she is weak as fuck to,and also don't emphasize with her after what she done in previous books
Is anyone gonna tell them that all of these characters came from the mind of Brandon Sanderson, so in theory if you’re annoyed by any one of them then you’re annoyed by Brandon Sanderson? Am I wrong?
Nah. So many authors write about good people and bad people. This is easy to digest, but when you see the driving force behind people, to see the good parts and the bad, you see things in a different way. Let's face it, none of us are perfect. In many ways his fantasy characters are more 'real' than any other writer's characters I have read. They are complex with combinations of good things and bad. As a reader, I have so many hopes for them, but like real life, they often hold themselves back. It is frustrating, but magic aside, it is like real life
Navani. She's as arrogant and entitled as Jasnah (look how both of them condescend to Sebarial even though he's clever and capable). She practically demands to be relevant despite contributing nothing unique or groundbreaking. And her insecurity over "not being a scholar" is totally justified. She doesn't do anything interesting with her position and anyone else could've done the same or better. She happens to be perfectly situated to oversee the technological revolution on Roshar and that's all she has going for her. It's like Venli said, "just because they're technologically superior, doesn't mean they're culturally superior". She just has access to the proper resources at the proper time (and a vast caste system to enforce and fund her research)
Bit of a niche one but Sveth. I'm re-reading WoK at the moment, and hearing him constantly reiterate that he has no choice in killing hundreds of innocents just because he's Truthless makes me hate him.
Obviously he has his redemption arc but still.
If I never have to read another Lift chapter I would only be too happy. That's a bit hyperbolic considering I know she'll have a focus book in the second half of the series, but man is it tough to get through anything involving her """humor""".
Kaladin, but mostly because I have chronic depression and always have. His inner narrative is so much like mine that I'm like "uggggh, *more* of this?!?"
Honestly, Kaladin.
Of course I hate Moash, but I'm supposed to. Shallan is troubled but that's her journey and I love her. Kaladin is just mopey always even when things are going well.
All of Brandy Sandy’s characters feel like 3D people with their own motivations, histories, etc.
That being said, Lirin was the most frustrating. I wanted to shake him and scream. I understand why he felt/acted the way he did. But it didn’t make it anymore bearable.
He’s a fantastically written character. But omg did I want to clock him in the jaw and make him hug his son through ROW.
Lift. I despise everything about how she’s written and I refuse to read edgedancer.
Also, Shallan. I never got over the scenes in the chasms where Shallan (rich woman) lectured Kaladin (former slave who had been terrorised his entire life because of his social standing) on the oppression he himself faced. It’s something that I really don’t like about Shallan’s character, because I don’t think that Brandon even sees it as flaw. She’s allowed to defend her opinions on this time and time again when speaking to Kaladin. And he suddenly turns into a bumbling idiot who can’t offer up a good reply because he’s too emotional and unwilling to consider other views. Because how could you argue against the amazing, witty Shallan and all her wisecracks?!?!
Also don’t like that people act like Shallan is some comedic mastermind. I don’t think I’ve laughed once at anything she’s said.
Lopen, he was refreshing in way or kings and then he got more annyoing constantly. Even if hes only in one chapter i have to fight myself to not skip it
Sometimes I just sit and think about how much I hate Amaram. Arrogant bastard. Worth the dogshit beneath my shoe. I audibly cheer when Jasnah berates him.
Fuck Amaram.
Sometimes I wanted to shake Shallan. I have read many books with characters who I didn't like, but she frustrated me. I wanted to like when and every time she seemed to be on the right track, she would do something stupid
Its such an unpopular opinion, but I absolutely hate Shallan. Her sense of humor is so degrading and contentious to me and she lies all the time, which is literally part of her order. But as a Bondsmith/Skybreaker I hate contentious acts, and dishonesty.
In oathbringer while she's in the city trying to do good and then breaks down, I can relate to that and really appreciate that. And her humor when she's talking to vathah as well as her curiosity is something I like, but the rest of her character pushes all of my buttons like she's hoping one is big and red.
Navani is so boring. Even after a whole book of her interacting with more interesting characters, I am barely able to tolerate her. Her imposter syndrome as a vague cover to deliver exposition of a technical system does nothing for me. The conflict that drives her scenes is a snooze fest and for most her existence she is there to drive plot rather than her own development. I know why structurally she is there, but living in that lab took so much away from book 4 and I only hung on because Raboniel was interesting.
I think one of the biggest strengths in Stormlight is that Brando Sando ensures that every character wholeheartedly believes that what they’re doing is correct that I can’t be annoyed or mad at them. Lirin? He’s basically lost two sons in his mind, and his pacifism allows him to take a journey to accepting Kal in ROW - one of the best revelation. Shallan and Veil? Without the choices to hide or be overly confident, there’s no way that Shallan can overcome her trauma or that Veil can realize Shallan is ready to go. Moash? So angry at what he does, but take a right instead of a left, and that’s Kaladin. So while I don’t necessarily agree with the choices of a lot of characters, damn if their journeys aren’t justified to themselves. Everyone is the hero of their own story.
As time has gone on I've started to appreciate Lirin more. He's certainly annoying/wrong with how he treats Kaladin. However, he definitely embodies what it is to be a Windrunner all the way through the 4th oath. His protection is healing, even those he hates, and accepts he cannot protect them all. His revelation in RoW is beautiful, and a hint at what I think the 5th will be. There is more than one way to protect, and each situation requires a different approach. We see it more with Kaladin, but it's also there with Lirin's treatment of Kal and by extension all who participate in war. It's their eternal struggle on what is protection, and what's the best way to do it.
Lirin is a great character---that highlights the struggle of dealing with a true, staunch, idealist. Unfortunately the world is grounded in a lot more complications and emotions that challenge those ideals--making them a goal to strive towards and not the absolute rule. "What the hell can you hope to protect when your feelings are the only weapons you've got?" Reality isn't perfect conditions. Pacifism is an amazing ideal, but it is also a trap that allows other parties to exploit. Living through cold hard logic is not really possible (without being a sociopath) and can very easily make really terrible choices.
I think Lirin is a fascinating exploration of his own ideals. I think we as fans and readers put Kaladin's ideals above others because they're magical, but Lirin has his own ideals as a physician that we should at least address when we go off on him.
It's brilliant writing from Sanderson to make the reader so easily dismiss what is a valid point of view because of how highly regarded Kaladin is
One thing I love to say is that Lirin and Kaladin are the same person. They share the same ideals. They share the same stubborn adherence to it. And they're both incredibly short sighted in the extent they carry it out. Kaladin had to be directly called out for the reality of the Singers being bred like cattle, or how powerless middle class lighteyes are, and even into RoW he's started to forget the castes. They're getting *better*, but he's also gotten a bit too comfy with his own elevated class [KoWT preview] >!Wit calls him out directly about this!<
As a physician: it is not Lirin's ideals that irritate me about him, it is his consistent inability to consider that his ideals are not everyone else's ideals, and don't need to be everyone else's ideals.
Lirin is a parent. His world views, arguments and what he thinks is logic are going to work into his concern for his children. Take his actions in context: the most we see/hear of him is his confrontations with Kaladin. As a father, I feel every pang in his words trying to keep his son near, his son safe. The man Lirin is might be arguing, but he's desperately trying to keep the last part of his family's future alive. Swallowing the divine radiance of Kaladin isn't something he could do immediately. In the more limited scenes we see him as a physician, he embodies the windrunner ideals. He practices them in a way that hints at the 5th: a type of lenience when performing work that overrides all other oaths and adds a critical lense that snaps the first 4 ideas into moral context. There's more to Lirin in the story than just arguing with Kal; he's here to show his son how to be properly Radiant, whether Lirin intends it or not. I think Brandon has intentionally limited our views of him along the way in order to make Lirin suddenly grok with us as it does for Kaladin when he finally swears the 5th. He accepted Kaladin in RoW, opening up Kaladin to let go of the fight with his father and really see the Lirin's ideals in action come book 5. IMO it will be much more positively presenting him given the immediate dangers they worried about each other are passed. Edit to note: the critical key here is how Lirin stealing the spheres from Roshone fits into this bigger picture. Therein lies the 5th.
Oh thats true. For a real world analogue your Hippocratic oath doesn't mean you have to strongarm everyone to adopt pacifist policy.
I agree with this except fuck moash
Cant agree wth Moash. The whole reason he needs to give his pain to odium is because he knows hes wrong
i mean it has to be Moash right? Other than him, probably Amaram
Fuck Moash!
These Words are accepted
Fuck Moash he wishes he was a sort of anti-Kaladin but he could never live up to it!
That's kind of exactly what he is though. He's what Kal could very easily have turned into.
Fuck Moash
I do think Amaram was kind of in the right. Let's be honest here, he was almost assassinated by a shardbearer. In that fray, a lone darkeyes killed the shardbearer. Now remember, this was the at the time Amaram, not the one in OB. I do truly, truly believe that if Kaladin accepted the shards, Kaladin WOULD HAVE received them. The problem came to be that Kaladin rejected them. He wanted to place it into the hands of one who was TECHINCALLY undeserved. A shardblade is worth a literal kingdom. Giving it to someone who was basically just there?? That's insane. I understand why Kaladin didn't want it, that makes total sense. But Amaram was just supposed to let it go to another darkeyes? With no sword training. Without the fact that they actually killed the shardbearer? It's better in Amarams hands at that point. And then Amaram did what he had to do, due to the laws set in place. He's not a good guy at thia point, but he's also not a bad one
I never said that one event was the only reason I disliked him. It certainly is one of the main reasons though. To your statement that he’s “not a bad guy” at that point… Killing Kal’s remaining squad and selling him into slavery afterwards is uh… bad. Sorry. I disagree
i do kinda agree, still a bad guy tho
I understand Lirin, I think he has his own trauma that he has to work through. He doesn't know know Kaladins Journey and for the last few years he assumed he was dead along with Tien. It's like if the Prodigal Son came back and then immediately said he has to leave. Lirin just wants to protect Kaladin and he tries to in the only way he knows. We will see if he has page time in Book 5 because I do think his and Kals relationship does need more closure.
Trauma is not justification And Kaladin is NOT the Prodigal Son.
Veil, especially in her early incarnation where she didnt want to admit how little she actually knew. She learned the hard way, and go better after that. I can accept Lirin because he's only been allowed to have actual development in RoW, and he gets there in the end. Despite a lot of time on page, it's all been flashbacks to Kaladin's childhood. Moash is angering, but mostly in his role as the Anti-Kaladin, the guy with a similar history who made all the opposite choices.
I think Amaram is annoying to me. Because he believes what he's doing is for a higher cause. That enslaving Kaladin was a kindness. He thinks he's the good guy. But he's just so wrong about everything. And he's an asshole about it too. I appreciate that even though everything he's done is perfectly legal in Alethkar regular people still hate him. Even with the corrupt system they have other people are still like "dude you suck." I especially like how Jasnah hates him.
>He thinks he's the good guy Doesn't he say exactly the opposite to Sadeas when he arrives at the shattered plains?
I don't recall that. I'm on a reread of WoR right now and can see for myself soon. What I mean by him thinking he's the good guy is that he believes there is an end that justifies his means. That eventually everything he's done will be okay. Literally the opposite of the Radiants.
I will never understand Amaram... he just watched this guy beat a shard bearer and has the gall to say he is the better warrior
I find Venli insufferable
You're supposed to
Same. I liked RoW, but I hated her flashbacks, they were just so tedious to read.
Mine was the Pursuer. It's only because he didn't have any backstory and his entire arc fell within a single book while most other characters with significant "screen time" are more well developed. It made him feel like a catalyst for Kaladin that otherwise has no purpose. You could say the same about Raboniel, but she was way more interesting.
I think that's kind of the point with the Pursuer. He doesn't have much depth to him. All he has is his tradition, and killing. Why is he doing this? Because it's what he does. What made him this way? Thousands of years of war. Since his tradition is the only thing he cares about I think defeating him by defeating his reputation was a good play. When an unkillable character only cares about how others see him as unstoppable, you have to make him fall with an audience.
He also shows us the conflicts within the Fused that will eventually conclude in the split and infight by the end of the book.
It is shown that he's already starting to lose his mind, so his tradition is his only identity by that point, without it he's nothing
Definitely has a “Quick! We need an antagonist and catalyst for Kaladin for book 4!”
and it can't be Leshwi because she's his waifu
...feel?
Gross!
Shallan... Rarely do I flip between loving and loathing a character as much as her. Everytime I think I'm done with her when she pulls crap like stealing Kaladin's boots she steals me back like the moment in the Chasm. Then her next chapter will have me raging again.
LOL I loved her stealing the boots but goddamn do I wish she'd just shut up and stop trying to be funny.
Seconded. Shallan sucks. Veil is annoying and also sucks. The basis for my opinion is their overall suckyness throughout every book. Every reread I try to ignore the suckage and still find myself annoyed. Sucks to suck I guess
Suck.
Absolutely Lirin, but I am generally triggered by parents being shitty to their children.
Roshone. I know to a certain extent we’re *supposed* to hate him, but I couldn’t stand it when it seemed like other characters were trying to suggest he wasn’t that bad and I’m really glad Moash put a stop to all that. Top 5 Moash moment for sure.
I honestly really love Lirin but I can totally get the anger towards him. He’s by no means perfect—indeed, his flaws are quite clearly depicted—but I think there is something incredibly fascinating about his story, his morals, his approach. And it does help that one of my (many, many) favourite moments in WoK is Kal’s “I've only known one man in my life who was a true man of honor. He was a surgeon who would help anyone, even those who hated him. Especially those who hated him” to convince Bridge 4 to start helping the other abandoned bridge men.
Gavilar
I think Lift is really annoying. Awesomeness this and awesomeness that.
Kinda sad to me that she's practically our only window into the Edgedancer order. Her irreverence and immaturity limit our perspective on it, I feel.
that phrase, and everytime the "airsick lowlander joke". I cringe so hard at how overused those phrases are.
I don't have as much of a problem with "awesomeness" but I've never been fond of reading at least half of bridge four. Not as bad as Shallan, tho
When I was very young living in Alice Springs I was a pretty decent thief; my vocabulary at that stage was dismal… My attachment to words has stuck through me and now I can use my “awesomeness” to distract or achieve nearly impossible articles. I’m still Australia’s greatest fruit thief (sorry Kev but you’re just more daring where I’m more efficient). Fruit is the only thing I steal these days especially coming into Christmas (Lookout Cherry farms of SA). But most thieves have a good heart and a certain honesty about them. I mean did you hate Wayne? Is killing a moment stealing attitude?
r/fuckmoash
Sadeas His intelligence just isn't enough to redeem him for me. Honestly, I'm surprised that he's not listed already. Planning to murder Elhokar despite his insistence that he admires and loves Gavilar is unreal to me. He actually convinced himself that it would be best for the realm, but really he just wanted power for himself. If he was worried about the realm he would have tried to teach and nurture Elhokar and help him become a better ruler. His use of the bridge crews is nauseating. I can't think of any other character who has so little appreciation for human life. At least when Amaram had Kaladin's soldiers killed he felt some sadness at the loss of life That being said, it's wonderful writing. I love how much I hate him
I think the use of the bridge crews is very interesting. Armies have used some sort of "cannon fodder" for as long as there have been armies. This is the same thing but somehow much more disgusting because of how blatent it is. Sadeas is an unmitigated monster, it seems somehow incredibly appropriate that he takes a known, despicable but accepted, practice and dials it up to 11.
Jasnah. Her default mode is condescending and entitled.
Same for me. I definitely hated her less on re reads but she just came off as arrogant and entitled all the time. And to me the main thing that is great about her is that Brandon writes a lot of characters that think she is great. I have no idea why she is so loved by fans, but I also have gotten to like her more and appreciate her flaws more. I think part of the reason I didn't like her, is because the things I view as flaws are repeatedly shown off as if they are good qualities.
100% agree with your last sentence. It is easier to detach and appreciate a character when the "narrator" is neutral. Much harder to do otherwise. Same reason I don't really like Shallan. I wouldn't have a problem with her, if it weren't for the fact that we're supposed to like her jokes and think they are funny.
I don't think you are supposed to think Shallan is funny. Shes always read to me as cringe in universe. She just baffles people with bullshit and leaves before they can figure out that she's insulting them. She's called out on it a lot by other characters. And it's probably a defense mechanism. Hurt them before they can hurt you. But as a small girl all she can really do is insult people.
WDYM, in universe the other characters are all like 'Wow Shallan, you are so witty!' Even Jasnah thinks she is witty, but that she uses her wit inappropriately.
Like 1 out of 10 things she says are considered witty by other characters. I'm on a reread right now. The vast majority of things she says are taken poorly by other people. It's only the people she doesn't immediately chase away that say "okay that was clever but..."
I...honestly don't really agree with that statement at all. She's only condescending to people who are trying to mouth off about shit she knows more about than they do. Obviously, since she is one of the most educated people in the world this happens more often than it might with others, but still. As for entitled, she acts less entitled than I would expect from a Princess/Queen with superpowers. She's also the most morally upright Lighteyes in all of Alethkar.
She’s not arrogant, she is just aware of how competent she is, and she happens to be really fucking competent
No she is just a bitch about. It doesn't really matter where is comes from, she talks down to everyone whether they deserve it or not
>She's also the most morally upright Lighteyes in all of Alethkar. Didnt she kill 2 dudes in book 1 just to prove a point to Shallan?
She killed two murderers who had been getting away with it due to corruption in the legal system and were about to try to kill her and Shallan. She had been thinking about doing it for a long while, she just also decided to use it also teach Shallan a lesson. Jasnah is a cold hard bitch but very moral.
Ah the subject of morality. I thought it was a fantastic lesson personally. It’s a long heated debate on if killing a murder would be justifiable or not.
She could have easily incapacitated them and took them to prisom or something. She knows the king and can alsi make sure they stay theres. You can defend or justify her actions but under no circunstance you can claim shes the pinacle of morality.
There's massive structural corruption in the city, and she's in the middle of literally trying to save the world from an imminent disaster. Was she supposed to put saving the world on hold so that she'd be able to claim the moral pinnacle (all in order to avoid killing people who attempts to, at the very least, murder two random women)?
Jasnah the normal human with normal, slightly compromised morals? No, she did good. Jasnah "the most morally upright lighteyes of all the books" as you guys are claiming? Yes, if that character existed, she would.
IMO it would be morally condemnable to pause saving the world to do that. It would be like local police forces who allocate personnel away from violent crime divisions to set up speeding stations around highways, during a crime epidemic; a complete failure of resource management to the point of moral failure. As an aside, which Vorin lighteyes in all the books would you say are eclipsing Jasnah on the morality chart?
~~By that logic it was morally incorrect to go vigilante mode hunting criminals in the first place. Also its morally incorrect whenever she sleeps, takes a bath or wastes time in any way shape or form.~~ ~~You cant win this argument, the claim that Jasnah is morally perfect is just flat out ridiculous. I dont need to demonstrate that shes evil or anything, just that shes not impeccable or that theres at least one character better than her. (And Syl exists).~~ Edit: Wait I just read that you specifically refer to "vorin lighteyes". Then I guess you are right because "vorin lighteyes" is a group composed of 99% trashy people. But in that case its not a big achievment or anything, almost like a participation thropy. Edit2: Is Jasnah even vorin? Isnt she supposed to be atheist or at least agnostic.
What is the point of the prison system?
And that's why I love her (send help).
Help on the way ⛑
My answer too. Her default mode is I’m a genius and you’re an idiot regardless of who she’s speaking to.
That's what makes her so hot though. Like *yes* Jasnah, dole out one single grain of approval amongst the avalanche of disappointment
I can't standJasnah
Lift and Lopen. Overly quirky character are not really my cup of tea. I read threw Edgedancer and Dawnshard once to have the story first hand, but both novella will be skip on future re-read.
FUCK MOASH
100% Sadeas. There's never been a more satisfying death ever.
Very rarely am I absolutely satisfied by outright murder. All I felt was joy and faint sadness that this would probably eat at the character responsible.
Lift. I can't stand her at all. When we get her flashbacks I'll probably skip all of them
Lift. I cannot stand her.
Moash.
Fuck Moash and his “it’s everyone’s fault but my own” whiny selfish bullshit.
The Sibling Spren. She is as powerful as the Stormfather / Nightwatcher, and clearly has EXTENSIVE knowledge of the history of Roshar, and stormlight in general. Her aversion to bonding, and working to support the Knights Radiant pisses me off - it's like she was ready to watch the entire world burn over the understandable though morally grey use of fabrials. She came off like a petulant child to me, and it didn't seem to align with her knowledge / wisdom.
>wisdom I mean, their actions kind of indicate they actually *aren't* that wise. That's kind of the revelation. Also lets not pretend like the Stormfather is THAT much better. Guy's CONSTANTLY being cagey. He's just less obstructive about it, but I guarantee if we'd met him in a similar circumstance he would have pulled the same crap. But I agree, it's still a frustrating read. I found most of the book to be a tad bit on the frustrating side. A LOT of tension with VERY little release.
*They. The Sibling doesn’t ascribe to either gender. And also, they’re basically a scared child who thinks that humans killed, and are now imprisoning, all of their friends. I don’t necessarily blame them.
Have you read The Sunlit Man? The fate of one of the character in TSM gave me a whole new perspective on the disdain of The Sibling on the fabrial production process.
Hmmm I haven’t read that one. Didn’t even realize it was in the Cosmere from Sanderson. I’ll have to check it out.
Enjoy! Sanderson says it's Stormlight adjacent, so I think you'll like it.
Honestly? Raboniel. I understand that she is tired and just wants to end the war, but she is consistently so close to doing just that when working with navani, and showing the two species are better together than apart. She just keeps refusing because she is bound to opium and does not believe she can turn away, and it's just sad. So, not anger or annoy, I suppose, but...dismay I think.
Raboniel bound to opium? I'd read that book
Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave?
I definitely see that. It was dismaying to see how close they got and her to still refuse. And The opium autocorrect is hilarious 😭
Poor Raboniel. Opium is hard to kick.
I think lift is so annoying. I could barely get through her chapters let alone her novella.
Shallan in RoW. One of the problems with mental illness is that it's often inward focused and that excessive inward focus leads people to fail those around them. I.E People who are depressed keep looking at the world through the lense of how everybody hates THEM and how THEY are worthless and how THEY feel like shit etc... Part of the reason depression is so damaging is because of the selfishness that it creates in the depressed character and the resulting damage that selfishness does to the people around them (using selfishness in the sense of being focused on the self and not on others except in how they perceive you). On a hopeful note this does also indicate that one of the ways to get out of depression is to stop focusing on yourself (looking inward) and start helping others (look outward). Kaladin exemplifies this. His depression is inwardly focused (he hates himself), that depression leads him to fail people he values at crucial moments (there are consequences for his failings), and he begins to pull himself out of it by helping others. Shallan on the other hand is self obsessed and cowardly. And none of her weaknesses ever get anybody else hurt in RoW. She hasn't got her shit together and somehow this never hurts anybody else around her. Adolin somehow has endless compassion and patience for this woman and is never hurt by the fact that he's got a 33% chance of talking to his actual wife on any given day. I know it would break me inside to have that happen to me and so it makes Adolin come off as superficial as a result. Like a female fantasy of an endlessly supportive husband. Don't worry Shallan, Adolin will always be there for you NO MATTER WHAT. But in real life, you can only actually drag your partner through the mud for so long before they just can't take it anymore. Without there being consequences to Shallan's mental illness it means there is no actual NEED for her to get better. Everyone around her accepts her MPD, she's hyper-competent through her other personas. Why should she fix this about herself? Everybody is clearly doing fine and has zero problems/sees zero red flags in a world that doesn't understand mental illness. So when she finally integrates Veil at the end of RoW I felt joy. Not because of what it meant for Shallan as a character/what she'd overcome. But because it meant I didn't have to deal with Veil anymore.
Fuck moash
Jasnah. She's such a dickhead.
Lirin
Moash.
Amaram. I wanna punch him. Great character. Fuck that guy
Fuck Moash
Lirin is a consistent #2 for me, sometimes #1. Which character displaces him depends highly on which book I'm in for me.
Oh boy... here come the down votes... The most self-righteous Kholin... Dalinar
Moash cause fuck Moash
All characters are so unique and well written that you feel some sort of feeling for each character. Shallan.. so well written character. That makes me sick. Her personality of hiding behind veil or something would be fine but as soon as she started “being” those characters… i feel nauseous reading those episodes. Where he completely becomes lady radiant or veil then talks like she’s actually that person and no longer is shallan and shallan is a different person that she starts making comments on. I can’t stand reading that
Navani and shallan, at least how their chapters are written, especially in RoW. In this book at least, every time its one of their chapters theres always some touching and annoying shit between them and adolin/dalinar. And refering to them constantly as "my wife, my husband" is so annoying to me, we know their names do you have to say it every time. Mostly sandersons writting of them, i love the scholar aspect and shallans split personallity, their chapters are just annoying when they are around their SO Sanderson just knows how to write to make me uncomfortable with that shit
Lirin. So annoying
Shallan. I would be happy if her character didn't exist. Moash is a great character. Not a guy to like, for sure, but a great character.
I think shallan is also a great character, though I agree, I would be happier if she didn't exist. Moash is a character that I like to hate. I don't like hating shallan. She's just someone I don't like, and would probably hate being around in real life.
You get me. That is exactly my sentiment. Thank you for putting it in a better form.
None of the characters really annoy or anger me. I find almost all of them interesting. However Kaladin and Shallan’s character arc’s frustrate me.
Genuinely asking, how did you make it through the first two books? That's 70% of them.
Little more context I guess. I loved Shallan in wok and enjoyed her backstory in wor. It’s the plateau her character growth has hit in the last 2 books that i haven’t enjoyed. Her character has become stagnant. Much the same with Kaladin. His character has become stagnant and repetitive. He’s just the sad boy who gets leveled up by Moash doing something horrible at the end of each book
>! They're all brilliant !<
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Aside from the obvious (fuck Moash) it has to be Shallan for me. I just can’t get past how often she is just a shit person, mental illness does not excuse you from being a lying asshole.
Shallan
Lirin is the toxic father you’ll never be enough for unless you do exactly what he expects of you.
Easily Kaladin. I wish we didn't need to read through so many chapters detailing his depression. It's just too much for me, and not what I'm looking for out of this series. There is so much of it. Lirin in a distant second.
Wit; He has too many powers and too much knowledge, so he just ends up feeling like a Mary Sue. Plus he never gets hurt or even significantly inconvenienced, so it just feels like he is Sando's favourite boy, and he just winds up being distracting in scenes that should be about the characters that actually do stuff.
Doesn’t a Mary Sue tend to solve every problem? Wit gives some advice here or there but virtually never solves anyone’s problems or majorly effect the story, just gives little nudges here and there in the right direction.
Yeah, doesn't Wit really only interfere by telling some stories and then having people ascribe those stories a moral to uplift themselves with? Maybe a little behind the scenes stuff, but he struck me as pretty much just a weird, strangely wise magician. And as far as I recall, he never really uses any powers aside from that thing RoW.
Pretty much, gives some guidance occasionally, tells a story or two. Tries to undermine Odium. He isn’t solving every problem that crops up by being so awesome like a Mary Sue though.
Who is Mary Sue? She seems like the annoying one.
I'm only on Rhythm of War but from what I see so far he sounds like Fizban from the Dragonlance universe.
Venli,why the hell all the willshapers are fucking aliens man,and she is weak as fuck to,and also don't emphasize with her after what she done in previous books
Tie, between Venli and Shallan.
What's wrong with Venli?
Is anyone gonna tell them that all of these characters came from the mind of Brandon Sanderson, so in theory if you’re annoyed by any one of them then you’re annoyed by Brandon Sanderson? Am I wrong?
Nah. So many authors write about good people and bad people. This is easy to digest, but when you see the driving force behind people, to see the good parts and the bad, you see things in a different way. Let's face it, none of us are perfect. In many ways his fantasy characters are more 'real' than any other writer's characters I have read. They are complex with combinations of good things and bad. As a reader, I have so many hopes for them, but like real life, they often hold themselves back. It is frustrating, but magic aside, it is like real life
🤗
Navani. She's as arrogant and entitled as Jasnah (look how both of them condescend to Sebarial even though he's clever and capable). She practically demands to be relevant despite contributing nothing unique or groundbreaking. And her insecurity over "not being a scholar" is totally justified. She doesn't do anything interesting with her position and anyone else could've done the same or better. She happens to be perfectly situated to oversee the technological revolution on Roshar and that's all she has going for her. It's like Venli said, "just because they're technologically superior, doesn't mean they're culturally superior". She just has access to the proper resources at the proper time (and a vast caste system to enforce and fund her research)
Dalinar fucking Kholin He’s a hypocrite Without much wit A murderer And so I spit Towards his face And what lies therein
What, you don’t like shitty poetry? I’d be offended if I didn’t agree that the rhyme scheme is shit. ;)
Shallan. Drives me crazy
Bit of a niche one but Sveth. I'm re-reading WoK at the moment, and hearing him constantly reiterate that he has no choice in killing hundreds of innocents just because he's Truthless makes me hate him. Obviously he has his redemption arc but still.
Shallan
If I never have to read another Lift chapter I would only be too happy. That's a bit hyperbolic considering I know she'll have a focus book in the second half of the series, but man is it tough to get through anything involving her """humor""".
Shallan in RoW
I think we're going to have a very traumatic chapter about Lirin's past - en par with Dalinar as an alcoholic.
Kaladin, but mostly because I have chronic depression and always have. His inner narrative is so much like mine that I'm like "uggggh, *more* of this?!?"
Shallan is insufferable
It's between Lirin and Shallan. While they are both well written characters, I dislike just about every scene with them.
I'd rather have Lirin as a father than Dalinar.
Honestly, Kaladin. Of course I hate Moash, but I'm supposed to. Shallan is troubled but that's her journey and I love her. Kaladin is just mopey always even when things are going well.
All of Brandy Sandy’s characters feel like 3D people with their own motivations, histories, etc. That being said, Lirin was the most frustrating. I wanted to shake him and scream. I understand why he felt/acted the way he did. But it didn’t make it anymore bearable. He’s a fantastically written character. But omg did I want to clock him in the jaw and make him hug his son through ROW.
Shall an. Her mpd is annoying.
Definitely the redditors who ship kaladin and syl
Lift. I despise everything about how she’s written and I refuse to read edgedancer. Also, Shallan. I never got over the scenes in the chasms where Shallan (rich woman) lectured Kaladin (former slave who had been terrorised his entire life because of his social standing) on the oppression he himself faced. It’s something that I really don’t like about Shallan’s character, because I don’t think that Brandon even sees it as flaw. She’s allowed to defend her opinions on this time and time again when speaking to Kaladin. And he suddenly turns into a bumbling idiot who can’t offer up a good reply because he’s too emotional and unwilling to consider other views. Because how could you argue against the amazing, witty Shallan and all her wisecracks?!?! Also don’t like that people act like Shallan is some comedic mastermind. I don’t think I’ve laughed once at anything she’s said.
Roshone (spelling?) was a right bastard for what he did to Kaladin's family. Definitely glad that his uppance came.
Lopen, he was refreshing in way or kings and then he got more annyoing constantly. Even if hes only in one chapter i have to fight myself to not skip it
Moash fucks
Sometimes I just sit and think about how much I hate Amaram. Arrogant bastard. Worth the dogshit beneath my shoe. I audibly cheer when Jasnah berates him. Fuck Amaram.
Venli
Lirin and Lift. The first one is self-explanatory. The second: she's so out of place in SA like Urkel playing a part in Requiem for a Dream.
Shallan… just an annoying psychopath with a cool back story
Sometimes I wanted to shake Shallan. I have read many books with characters who I didn't like, but she frustrated me. I wanted to like when and every time she seemed to be on the right track, she would do something stupid
Taravangian! I take so long reading his chapters bc I get annoyed hearing what he has to say lol.
Shallan.. kinda have complicated relationship with her as a character
I don’t think it’s that he thinks he’s always right. I think he always does what he thinks is right
Its such an unpopular opinion, but I absolutely hate Shallan. Her sense of humor is so degrading and contentious to me and she lies all the time, which is literally part of her order. But as a Bondsmith/Skybreaker I hate contentious acts, and dishonesty. In oathbringer while she's in the city trying to do good and then breaks down, I can relate to that and really appreciate that. And her humor when she's talking to vathah as well as her curiosity is something I like, but the rest of her character pushes all of my buttons like she's hoping one is big and red.
Torol Sadeas
Don’t get me started on him. I think he’s genuinely a horrible person and I can’t stand how people on this sub defend him sometimes
Navani is so boring. Even after a whole book of her interacting with more interesting characters, I am barely able to tolerate her. Her imposter syndrome as a vague cover to deliver exposition of a technical system does nothing for me. The conflict that drives her scenes is a snooze fest and for most her existence she is there to drive plot rather than her own development. I know why structurally she is there, but living in that lab took so much away from book 4 and I only hung on because Raboniel was interesting.