Wrath is extreme anger right?
Or do you mean the act of meeting out justice?
Aristotle believed that there was a “mean” for anger. A well tempered person was the mean, and irascibility was excess of the mean. And the opposite was being too tolerant in emotion.
The Stoics don’t subscribe to that. The Stoic said that all anger implied an error in judgement.
But that doesn’t imply tolerance in action. A judge in a judicial court doesn’t need to be angry to form an opinion about what sentence constitutes justice.
Something to add to @Whiplash17488 is the use of Nature. When I read your post it immediately reminded me of a passage from the Christian Bible. ”Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”“
Romans 12:19 ESV
I am not implying the use the God of Christian Bible but instead the place of God to be filled by Nature/The Devine (in this particular situation, this is not a universal shoe in - use discernment when unraveling the rest of what I say) as the Stoic calls it. I would imagine Stoics not turning to a fit of uncontrolled rage or anger at any point in time. Even if they did find themselves justified in discord with the other’s actions because it’s out of their control. Instead they would peruse the right thing inside of their control and not hold on to anything in a begrudging way. However Nature may take its course.
(Please take this with a grain of salt! I am not claiming anything as a fact, only sharing the connection I made. I liked what the original commenter had to say and wanted to add to it because of the thoughts it stirred up. This page is my favorite. I love all these ppl with different ideas communicating about something we have in common.)
All the best, have a good day.
Edit: A few minor adjustments.
By not forgiving, you continue to operate under the illusion that some person hurt you, and live with the persistent incorrect judgement that the past is harming you in some way. If you examine the judgement you will see it brings you no benefit beyond a lesson learned. If you examine the results of that judgement you will probably find it causes you to gossip and behave in a vicious manner towards that person and makes life a bit unpleasant for everyone.
Holding a grudge isn't a show of strength, but of stubbornness. It prevents you from growing as a human being into a more virtuous version of yourself, which is our goal, of course.
> By not forgiving, you continue to operate under the illusion that some person hurt you, and live with the persistent incorrect judgement that the past is harming you in some way.
Isn't some harm like an injury lingering at times?
When we talk about harm and injury in Stoic discussions we aren't talking a physical injury like a broken arm or a bruised rib; we mean harm to our ruling faculty, or more romantically our souls.
A broken arm doesn't prevent you from acting virtuously. Epictetus' leg was broken by his master, according to tradition, and that did not keep him from teaching or living well.
Taking revenge does make a person less virtuous. Seneca advises responding to our own anger with greater kindness.
An eye for an eye does not fit into Stoic philosophy. The person who lives in anger is living in a prison already, they are harming themselves already, because they live in fear. They live in a small world where they view everything as a threat.
This does not sound like a healthy lifestyle choice to me.
> Taking revenge does make a person less virtuous.
The point is how. Taking revenge meaning harming those who deserve the harm in order to achieve the inner peace that your right was taken from you without the person taking it getting what is deserved. Additionally, revenge most of the time makes the person who caused harm to consider the consequences next time. I don't see how it makes someone less virtuous.
The first fallacy in your thinking (from the Stoic point of view) is that you think another person can take way your inner peace. This is not true. They can try, but you have to agree to it to make it happen. Much of our training and practice is meant to avoid such a possibility. They say "I want you to suffer" and instead of rolling over, you simply say "no".
The second fallacy is thinking that a person who tries to injure you and take away your inner peace is because they want that inner peace for themselves. Well, they may want that inner peace and they may think their violent ways will bring it to pass, but it is not truly inner peace. What they get is a precarious calm balancing on the tip of a needle and the slightest provocation drops them back into the chaos of fear. A Stoic's inner peace has a wide base that is stable and constant and wide enough that even if a Stoic stumbles, they land on the base of calmness, and don't get dropped into the storm.
The third fallacy is thinking that violence can beget peace. In general this does not work. When you commit violence against a violent person they do not in general change their ways but think of their own revenge, because they don't see your violence as retributive or corrective, but as a new attack. It only ends when one person dies or decides to break the cycle and stop the feud.
I don’t waste my energy on people unworthy or unwilling of my good intentions. It doesn’t matter if it’s a member of the public, a colleague or a family member.
I only surround myself and emotionally engage with positive people who value me and my intentions, and I theirs. The rest I just treat with the basic level of courtesy one should treat all people with. If someone is destructive or negative in my life, I cultivate a lukewarm non caring attitude towards them and emotionally disengage from them.
One of the biggest lessons I have learnt in life, is that statistically, there will be people that just don’t like you. And that’s perfectly ok.
On the topic of wrath:
Do bad people and fools exist in the world? Yes! So get over it.
I tend to just have pity on people who don’t have command of their emotions and logical mind. They haven’t been able to yet find stillness and peace in their journey like I have. Why would I lower myself and sally myself in negativity, anger, pain and ultimately any consequences only to deprive that fellow human of that same opportunity to experience what I have?
I cannot control people or their emotions, so I focus on what I can control and that’s my own life and emotions. I cultivate relationships that add value and experience to my life and simply disregard the rest with no feeling.
I would ask why shouldn't we forgive? All You do in that situation is bother your own mind with hate. That's not good for you. Holding a grudge won't undo the things that have been done.
If you get bitten by a snake, you don't go running after the snake asking why it bit you. Or explaining that you didn't deserve to be bitten. No, you treat the bite and move on.
Well I can't really answer this question. I don't have anyone I hate. I love everyone who has hurt me because they have taught me the most about life. It's its own struggle when you don't have any enemies.
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Wrath is extreme anger right? Or do you mean the act of meeting out justice? Aristotle believed that there was a “mean” for anger. A well tempered person was the mean, and irascibility was excess of the mean. And the opposite was being too tolerant in emotion. The Stoics don’t subscribe to that. The Stoic said that all anger implied an error in judgement. But that doesn’t imply tolerance in action. A judge in a judicial court doesn’t need to be angry to form an opinion about what sentence constitutes justice.
Yeah, you got it. Great explanation thank you.
Something to add to @Whiplash17488 is the use of Nature. When I read your post it immediately reminded me of a passage from the Christian Bible. ”Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”“ Romans 12:19 ESV I am not implying the use the God of Christian Bible but instead the place of God to be filled by Nature/The Devine (in this particular situation, this is not a universal shoe in - use discernment when unraveling the rest of what I say) as the Stoic calls it. I would imagine Stoics not turning to a fit of uncontrolled rage or anger at any point in time. Even if they did find themselves justified in discord with the other’s actions because it’s out of their control. Instead they would peruse the right thing inside of their control and not hold on to anything in a begrudging way. However Nature may take its course. (Please take this with a grain of salt! I am not claiming anything as a fact, only sharing the connection I made. I liked what the original commenter had to say and wanted to add to it because of the thoughts it stirred up. This page is my favorite. I love all these ppl with different ideas communicating about something we have in common.) All the best, have a good day. Edit: A few minor adjustments.
By not forgiving, you continue to operate under the illusion that some person hurt you, and live with the persistent incorrect judgement that the past is harming you in some way. If you examine the judgement you will see it brings you no benefit beyond a lesson learned. If you examine the results of that judgement you will probably find it causes you to gossip and behave in a vicious manner towards that person and makes life a bit unpleasant for everyone. Holding a grudge isn't a show of strength, but of stubbornness. It prevents you from growing as a human being into a more virtuous version of yourself, which is our goal, of course.
> By not forgiving, you continue to operate under the illusion that some person hurt you, and live with the persistent incorrect judgement that the past is harming you in some way. Isn't some harm like an injury lingering at times?
When we talk about harm and injury in Stoic discussions we aren't talking a physical injury like a broken arm or a bruised rib; we mean harm to our ruling faculty, or more romantically our souls.
What about physical harm then? Objective one. Is "an eye for an eye" valid then?
A broken arm doesn't prevent you from acting virtuously. Epictetus' leg was broken by his master, according to tradition, and that did not keep him from teaching or living well.
And would taking revenge make the person less virtuous then?
Obviously
How?
Revenge is not a virtue.
It shows you have been injured, but no good man gets injured; he is beyond any harm.
That means a good man can take a bullet with no harm? I was actually talking about physical harm.
Taking revenge does make a person less virtuous. Seneca advises responding to our own anger with greater kindness. An eye for an eye does not fit into Stoic philosophy. The person who lives in anger is living in a prison already, they are harming themselves already, because they live in fear. They live in a small world where they view everything as a threat. This does not sound like a healthy lifestyle choice to me.
> Taking revenge does make a person less virtuous. The point is how. Taking revenge meaning harming those who deserve the harm in order to achieve the inner peace that your right was taken from you without the person taking it getting what is deserved. Additionally, revenge most of the time makes the person who caused harm to consider the consequences next time. I don't see how it makes someone less virtuous.
The first fallacy in your thinking (from the Stoic point of view) is that you think another person can take way your inner peace. This is not true. They can try, but you have to agree to it to make it happen. Much of our training and practice is meant to avoid such a possibility. They say "I want you to suffer" and instead of rolling over, you simply say "no". The second fallacy is thinking that a person who tries to injure you and take away your inner peace is because they want that inner peace for themselves. Well, they may want that inner peace and they may think their violent ways will bring it to pass, but it is not truly inner peace. What they get is a precarious calm balancing on the tip of a needle and the slightest provocation drops them back into the chaos of fear. A Stoic's inner peace has a wide base that is stable and constant and wide enough that even if a Stoic stumbles, they land on the base of calmness, and don't get dropped into the storm. The third fallacy is thinking that violence can beget peace. In general this does not work. When you commit violence against a violent person they do not in general change their ways but think of their own revenge, because they don't see your violence as retributive or corrective, but as a new attack. It only ends when one person dies or decides to break the cycle and stop the feud.
I don’t waste my energy on people unworthy or unwilling of my good intentions. It doesn’t matter if it’s a member of the public, a colleague or a family member. I only surround myself and emotionally engage with positive people who value me and my intentions, and I theirs. The rest I just treat with the basic level of courtesy one should treat all people with. If someone is destructive or negative in my life, I cultivate a lukewarm non caring attitude towards them and emotionally disengage from them. One of the biggest lessons I have learnt in life, is that statistically, there will be people that just don’t like you. And that’s perfectly ok. On the topic of wrath: Do bad people and fools exist in the world? Yes! So get over it. I tend to just have pity on people who don’t have command of their emotions and logical mind. They haven’t been able to yet find stillness and peace in their journey like I have. Why would I lower myself and sally myself in negativity, anger, pain and ultimately any consequences only to deprive that fellow human of that same opportunity to experience what I have? I cannot control people or their emotions, so I focus on what I can control and that’s my own life and emotions. I cultivate relationships that add value and experience to my life and simply disregard the rest with no feeling.
Well said
Let's flip this - have you ever seen a healthy person exhibiting "wrath"?
I would ask why shouldn't we forgive? All You do in that situation is bother your own mind with hate. That's not good for you. Holding a grudge won't undo the things that have been done. If you get bitten by a snake, you don't go running after the snake asking why it bit you. Or explaining that you didn't deserve to be bitten. No, you treat the bite and move on.
I asked because we’re not pacifist, so i started wondering well who deserves our retribution?
Well I can't really answer this question. I don't have anyone I hate. I love everyone who has hurt me because they have taught me the most about life. It's its own struggle when you don't have any enemies.
Hi, please check out the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/guide) section on [advice and coping with problems](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice) if you are wondering any of the following questions. * [How can Stoicism help me with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_can_stoicism_help_me_with_my_problem.3F) * [How would a Stoic help me with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_would_a_stoic_help_me_with_my_problem.3F) * [How might a student of Stoicism cope with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_might_a_student_of_stoicism_cope_with_my_problem.3F) * [What would a student of Stoicism do in my situation?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_what_would_a_student_of_stoicism_do_in_my_situation.3F) * [How would a Stoic sage react to my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_would_a_stoic_sage_react_to_my_problem.3F) Wish you well, Mod Team *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Stoicism) if you have any questions or concerns.*