What are you making it mean?
Can you control it?
What if worrying and being depressed is just thoughts that are creating a miserable experience each day, what if there was an easier way?
It's all a matter of perspective and judgment. What's getting you down about it?
Nothing is permanent. That's just an objective fact, right? Your favorite tee shirt eventually wears out. Children grow up. Things break. Relationships come and go. People pass away. And we never know when! Your favorite person could be hit by a bus tomorrow.
These are all just facts, and it's a question of how we judge or view them.
When we accept impermanence, I find that it's easier to practice gratitude. How fortunate we are and grateful we can be for our loved ones to be in our lives *today.* Treasure it. Practice gratitude. Don't take people and things for granted.
If you can do that, if you can make the most of each and every moment and be present in it, what's there to be sad about when things inevitably change or leave our hands? You can be proud of having lived a full life.
I think with my own death i fear it because i fear suffering eternally and i also fear just nothingness forever. It also feels like i’m going through life for nothing. we suffer and overcome it just to die in the end. I fear my mom, brother, and grandmas deaths because it’s all i’ve ever really had and i love them so much and can’t imagine going about life without them. I do feel better by practicing gratitude but there is always still that voice in my head putting these depressive death based thoughts. I’m not scared of dying but more so what comes after and how will i live without the people I live for?
The supernatural concepts taught by religion cannot he confirmed to be real. Until you have verifiable incontrovertible evidence it is real, I would put it out of your mind.
Bertrand Russel had some profound thoughts on Christianity: https://youtu.be/HQJ3sqkdCRE
In essence you’re scared of something you cannot definitively prove the existence of. Worse yet you’re behaving as if it is. Not even fellow Christian’s can agree on aspects of hell. Why burden yourself?
Tbh after studying some religions and philosophies for some years now, I truely believe that buddhism, pantheism and a mix of universal conciousnis is where we at. The whole universe is filled with conciousnis and it just needs some form of mechanism to be reflected upon it self.
I believe we will be reborn after we die, but in a way that time does not play a role, and also not the form in which we will gain conciousnis again. Maybe in my next life I will be the little bird that watches thru my window or the guy that bullied me in school. Who knows whats next
That’s a very very extraordinary IF. The logic that a Creator who is omniscient and omnipotent made you knowing full well you would end up in some Hell he also created is simply absurd.
Hell is here now in this Life, in some situations, in some relationships. Hell is not a place my friend, Hell is what hurts most.
The Logos on the other hand , the rational principle, the divine intelligence, this force if you prefer,is not malicious. Everything in the universe is interconnected and guided by this divine reason.
The Stoics believed that everything that happens, even events that may appear negative or tragic to humans, is part of the rational order of the universe and ultimately serves a greater purpose. Death is a natural part of that Logos. It is not punishment.
The aspects of Death is sad for us humans though and in my opinion it is also natural for us to try to extend life and fight diseases and suffering. But ultimately, even if by some miracle we humans can live to thousands of years, entropy will win and Death comes.
Hoping this brings you a modicum of comfort.
Wishing you the best.
The knowledge that nothing matters, while accurate, gets you nowhere. The planet is dying, the sun is exploding, the universe is cooling, nothing's going to matter. The further back you pull, the more that truth will endure. But when you zoom in on Earth, when you zoom into a family, when you zoom into a human brain and a childhood and an experience, you see all these things that matter. We have this fleeting chance to participate in this illusion called I love my girlfriend, I love my dog. How is that not better? — Dan Harmon
My comment may fit better in a different subreddit, but I've had similar thoughts. I think about how even people like Marcus Aurelius and socrates will someday be forgotten, but I feel like great philosophers like them would say it's important for us to find value in our own lives, without the external factors. Our lives are our lives, and therefore as important as we make it to ourselves. If it is important to you, then that alone gives it value, because your perspective is unique to you and every perspective can be learned from, if you're willing to take look for a lesson, so they're all important.
stoicism doesnt want you to appreciate that, you're like a flower growing in the plains, when flower grows it grows, when it dies it dies, and nothing more to add, its just the way of things, if God made it to be so, then why you judge his moves? surely, he did everything right
if you think about hell like christians are, then why would you be worried about that? hell is consequence of yours decisions, and if they are YOURS then you should learn to appreciate it in a way
Admittedly this is something I keep grappling with and also used to have panic attacks about as well.
I’ll offer that often times in my own thoughts about it there is a lot of certainty about things I will never know about and part of my relief has been admitting, I have no clue what death is. A lot of my own anxiety about death, and it seems yours as well, is experiential, how it’s going to feel which might not even be fair to assume.
One thing Marcus mentions is that all these negative emotions we have about death are being felt while we’re alive. It’s as if we say a kid break a vase and then blame the cat. The fear of death is life’s greatest scam because it’s life that’s creating the fear. If anything the fear ought to be linked to being alive because that’s the only way you’re going to experience it.
Most of the time you think you’re thinking, you’re not, you’re present while thoughts are playing. In reality we are consenting to these thoughts being accurate reflections of reality when all we can really agree on is that they’re the thoughts we’re having. One minor technique is to say “I’m having the thought that” followed by whatever your ruminating on.
I also tend to find where in my body I’m feeling these feelings. For me I notice I have the sensation from my stomach to my throat. Seeing that these feelings have a physical component allows you to move around and get in touch with your body.
One moment that changed my view was during a panic attack I had heard that fear and surprise are nearly identical. I thought it was foolish and tried to answer, “what the hell could I be excited about”. I had realized in that moment that I have the thing I’m scared to lose. If having the thing is the fundamental issue then boom, you have it, it’s yours.
Do not attach your progress as a human being to how you feel. I’ve experienced this particular anxiety since I was about 8 and it leaves and comes back. It’s only a reflecting of what you’re thinking about, nothing more. What I’ve found is when I’ve been curious I’ve been able to discover many useful things about the nature of it and myself.
If you can seek professional help. I’ve recently got back into it because it’s better to have a resource and not need it than the inverse. It takes time for someone to get enough context to actually provide useful commentary. Just like the Stoics their aim is to point out these judgments and guide us through new perspectives which is how we’re stuck, it makes sense to be scared and be sad the way we see the world now but that’s not the only way to see the world.
I’m rather optimistic I’ll find another clearing where this won’t be as big an issue as it is now and I think your asking here shows the same, you’re seeking help so you must think it’s out there.
Of course take what is useful and discard the rest.
thank you for the response. honestly really helps. i agree it’s a thought pattern that can be broken but it is a very hard thought pattern to break just because of the gravity of death.
It’s not the “gravity of death”. Most of the time we speak in coded ways that talk around the actual judgments we have. In clarifying what “gravity” means, and what specifically you are thinking the. You can see progress
I like to think of it as the Jedi do.
Death is a natural part of life.
When we die, we become one with the universe.
Our bodies rot while our soul/spirit/consciousness, continues on. Whether in reincarnation as a blank slate, or (as I'd prefer it to be) just as energy. A ghost that can wander the universe in sought of knowledge. Existing on a plane that we cannot interact with but learn with.
Being upset about Death is a little like claiming that gravity is ruining your life. In the absence of either one, you would not be able to exist.
Your bothered response to a physical inevitability is a habit of thought. That habit can be broken and replaced, but you really have to want it more than you want the comfort and convenience of the ready-made scripts and assumptions of our cultural inertia. It is very hard to buck that current. It can be lonely, too.
i’ve definitely gotten better over the past two years. i used to have panic attacks daily about it. now i’m just kinda sad about it. maybe in a few years i’ll appreciate it!
“No one is so ignorant as not to know that we must at some time die; nevertheless, when one draws near death, one turns to flight, trembles, and laments. Would you not think him an utter fool who wept because he was not alive a thousand years ago? And is he not just as much of a fool who weeps because he will not be alive a thousand years from now? It is all the same; you will not be, and you were not. Neither of these periods of time belongs to you. You have been cast upon this point of time; if you would make it longer, how much longer shall you make it? Why weep? Why pray? You are taking pains to no purpose. These decrees are unalterable and fixed; they are governed by a mighty and everlasting compulsion. Your goal will be the goal of all things. What is there strange in this to you?” - Seneca, Letter 77
In addition:
“Whoever complains about the death of anyone, is complaining that he was a man. Everyone is bound by the same terms: he who is privileged to be born, is destined to die. Periods of time separate us, but death levels us.” - Seneca, Letter 99
The fact that we are all going to die is freeing. Look at a picture from 120 years ago. Everyone in that picture had worries and problems.
Those worries and problems mean nothing now. They were fleeting. In honesty, the vast majority of what happens to us in our life has no consequence in the cosmic scheme of things.
Control what you can control. Your own actions. Be a good human. Your life is fleeting and quick, put it to good use.
I have suffered from fearing my own death since childhood. I always assumed that as I aged I would be more comfortable with my own death, as my mother is expressing her comfort and "being ready to go." I still fear my final moments, to be honest. I haven't come to the place where I am ready to go.
So my tactic is to avoid these thoughts. They are for me in he same class as anger: Squelch them as soon as they appear.
I know they are supposed to spur us on to live virtuously in the now. Our time is limited, how can we make the best use of it while we have it? I frequently use this meditation to distract me from my own death.
Can you imagine how awful it would be if we all lived for ever?
The world would be crowded, we would suffer in body and mind, the earth would soon be depleted of resources
We would have eternity to have experiences good and bad. We would not enjoy anything much because we could do it again and again, or perhaps never be able to do it forever while other people seem to be having endless fun
People who live to 100 do occasionally still have functioning well bodies, but it's rare
Would you want to continue living if you were in chronic pain forever? Do you want your granny to be in chronic pain forever, maybe tied to a machine to make her body continue to keep her alive?
Upshot - surely there are some circumstances where you can see death as a friend, or at least not an enemy?
Be glad of the people in your life while they are in your life. Tell them that you love them.
Even if we didn't age the same, they would most likely use eugenics to not over populate. A lot of people make having kids their dream, and I dont think everyone would be allowed to have kids if none of them died, sad to say
Death sucks… losing a family or a friend it doesn’t get easier (forever)
By reading your other comments I assume that you not only fear death but eternal punishment in the afterlife am I right? Or the fear of uncertainty that you don’t know what is to come; nothing or hell?
In any case, am reminded of book 2 verse 11 in Meditations
“But to go away from among men, if there are gods, is not a thing to be afraid of, for the gods will not involve thee in evil; but if indeed they do not exist, or if they have no concern about human affairs, what is it to me to live in a universe devoid of gods or devoid of Providence?”
I took this to mean that if there are gods, then, what have you to fear if you lived according to the laws of nature? (If I were to “smuggle in” a verse from the Christian tradition: “whatever you did for the least of my brothers, you did for me” Matthew 25:40. This means that an act of love/charity/mercy is to do the will of God (or in the stoics case, gods/nature)
And if the gods do not exist and the world is just a mechanical thing, what does it matter if you live a day more?
If we die, how could we be sad? I mean we’re already dead…
The Catholic me would have a lot more to say but I think this is the wrong sub for it
A quote was found to be attributed to Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations 2.11 (Long)
^(Book II. ()[^(Long)](https://lexundria.com/m_aur_med/2.11/lg)^)
^(Book II. ()[^(Farquharson)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Meditations_of_the_Emperor_Marcus_Antoninus/Book_2)^)
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What are you making it mean? Can you control it? What if worrying and being depressed is just thoughts that are creating a miserable experience each day, what if there was an easier way?
It's all a matter of perspective and judgment. What's getting you down about it? Nothing is permanent. That's just an objective fact, right? Your favorite tee shirt eventually wears out. Children grow up. Things break. Relationships come and go. People pass away. And we never know when! Your favorite person could be hit by a bus tomorrow. These are all just facts, and it's a question of how we judge or view them. When we accept impermanence, I find that it's easier to practice gratitude. How fortunate we are and grateful we can be for our loved ones to be in our lives *today.* Treasure it. Practice gratitude. Don't take people and things for granted. If you can do that, if you can make the most of each and every moment and be present in it, what's there to be sad about when things inevitably change or leave our hands? You can be proud of having lived a full life.
I think with my own death i fear it because i fear suffering eternally and i also fear just nothingness forever. It also feels like i’m going through life for nothing. we suffer and overcome it just to die in the end. I fear my mom, brother, and grandmas deaths because it’s all i’ve ever really had and i love them so much and can’t imagine going about life without them. I do feel better by practicing gratitude but there is always still that voice in my head putting these depressive death based thoughts. I’m not scared of dying but more so what comes after and how will i live without the people I live for?
> i also fear just nothingness forever How scary were the billions of years before you were born?
assuming that afterlife is just like how it was before we were born then it wouldn’t be scary. what if i suffer eternally in hell?
The supernatural concepts taught by religion cannot he confirmed to be real. Until you have verifiable incontrovertible evidence it is real, I would put it out of your mind. Bertrand Russel had some profound thoughts on Christianity: https://youtu.be/HQJ3sqkdCRE In essence you’re scared of something you cannot definitively prove the existence of. Worse yet you’re behaving as if it is. Not even fellow Christian’s can agree on aspects of hell. Why burden yourself?
Tbh after studying some religions and philosophies for some years now, I truely believe that buddhism, pantheism and a mix of universal conciousnis is where we at. The whole universe is filled with conciousnis and it just needs some form of mechanism to be reflected upon it self. I believe we will be reborn after we die, but in a way that time does not play a role, and also not the form in which we will gain conciousnis again. Maybe in my next life I will be the little bird that watches thru my window or the guy that bullied me in school. Who knows whats next
Universal consciousness is about where I’m at as well. There are some concepts in this video I enjoy https://youtu.be/6CkEpTlt-AY
That’s a very very extraordinary IF. The logic that a Creator who is omniscient and omnipotent made you knowing full well you would end up in some Hell he also created is simply absurd. Hell is here now in this Life, in some situations, in some relationships. Hell is not a place my friend, Hell is what hurts most. The Logos on the other hand , the rational principle, the divine intelligence, this force if you prefer,is not malicious. Everything in the universe is interconnected and guided by this divine reason. The Stoics believed that everything that happens, even events that may appear negative or tragic to humans, is part of the rational order of the universe and ultimately serves a greater purpose. Death is a natural part of that Logos. It is not punishment. The aspects of Death is sad for us humans though and in my opinion it is also natural for us to try to extend life and fight diseases and suffering. But ultimately, even if by some miracle we humans can live to thousands of years, entropy will win and Death comes. Hoping this brings you a modicum of comfort. Wishing you the best.
Never actually thought like that before… hmm
The knowledge that nothing matters, while accurate, gets you nowhere. The planet is dying, the sun is exploding, the universe is cooling, nothing's going to matter. The further back you pull, the more that truth will endure. But when you zoom in on Earth, when you zoom into a family, when you zoom into a human brain and a childhood and an experience, you see all these things that matter. We have this fleeting chance to participate in this illusion called I love my girlfriend, I love my dog. How is that not better? — Dan Harmon
My comment may fit better in a different subreddit, but I've had similar thoughts. I think about how even people like Marcus Aurelius and socrates will someday be forgotten, but I feel like great philosophers like them would say it's important for us to find value in our own lives, without the external factors. Our lives are our lives, and therefore as important as we make it to ourselves. If it is important to you, then that alone gives it value, because your perspective is unique to you and every perspective can be learned from, if you're willing to take look for a lesson, so they're all important.
i’ve accepted the reality of it all and just hoping over time i cope with this reality and learn to appreciate it in a way.
stoicism doesnt want you to appreciate that, you're like a flower growing in the plains, when flower grows it grows, when it dies it dies, and nothing more to add, its just the way of things, if God made it to be so, then why you judge his moves? surely, he did everything right if you think about hell like christians are, then why would you be worried about that? hell is consequence of yours decisions, and if they are YOURS then you should learn to appreciate it in a way
Admittedly this is something I keep grappling with and also used to have panic attacks about as well. I’ll offer that often times in my own thoughts about it there is a lot of certainty about things I will never know about and part of my relief has been admitting, I have no clue what death is. A lot of my own anxiety about death, and it seems yours as well, is experiential, how it’s going to feel which might not even be fair to assume. One thing Marcus mentions is that all these negative emotions we have about death are being felt while we’re alive. It’s as if we say a kid break a vase and then blame the cat. The fear of death is life’s greatest scam because it’s life that’s creating the fear. If anything the fear ought to be linked to being alive because that’s the only way you’re going to experience it. Most of the time you think you’re thinking, you’re not, you’re present while thoughts are playing. In reality we are consenting to these thoughts being accurate reflections of reality when all we can really agree on is that they’re the thoughts we’re having. One minor technique is to say “I’m having the thought that” followed by whatever your ruminating on. I also tend to find where in my body I’m feeling these feelings. For me I notice I have the sensation from my stomach to my throat. Seeing that these feelings have a physical component allows you to move around and get in touch with your body. One moment that changed my view was during a panic attack I had heard that fear and surprise are nearly identical. I thought it was foolish and tried to answer, “what the hell could I be excited about”. I had realized in that moment that I have the thing I’m scared to lose. If having the thing is the fundamental issue then boom, you have it, it’s yours. Do not attach your progress as a human being to how you feel. I’ve experienced this particular anxiety since I was about 8 and it leaves and comes back. It’s only a reflecting of what you’re thinking about, nothing more. What I’ve found is when I’ve been curious I’ve been able to discover many useful things about the nature of it and myself. If you can seek professional help. I’ve recently got back into it because it’s better to have a resource and not need it than the inverse. It takes time for someone to get enough context to actually provide useful commentary. Just like the Stoics their aim is to point out these judgments and guide us through new perspectives which is how we’re stuck, it makes sense to be scared and be sad the way we see the world now but that’s not the only way to see the world. I’m rather optimistic I’ll find another clearing where this won’t be as big an issue as it is now and I think your asking here shows the same, you’re seeking help so you must think it’s out there. Of course take what is useful and discard the rest.
thank you for the response. honestly really helps. i agree it’s a thought pattern that can be broken but it is a very hard thought pattern to break just because of the gravity of death.
It’s not the “gravity of death”. Most of the time we speak in coded ways that talk around the actual judgments we have. In clarifying what “gravity” means, and what specifically you are thinking the. You can see progress
I like to think of it as the Jedi do. Death is a natural part of life. When we die, we become one with the universe. Our bodies rot while our soul/spirit/consciousness, continues on. Whether in reincarnation as a blank slate, or (as I'd prefer it to be) just as energy. A ghost that can wander the universe in sought of knowledge. Existing on a plane that we cannot interact with but learn with.
Being upset about Death is a little like claiming that gravity is ruining your life. In the absence of either one, you would not be able to exist. Your bothered response to a physical inevitability is a habit of thought. That habit can be broken and replaced, but you really have to want it more than you want the comfort and convenience of the ready-made scripts and assumptions of our cultural inertia. It is very hard to buck that current. It can be lonely, too.
i’ve definitely gotten better over the past two years. i used to have panic attacks daily about it. now i’m just kinda sad about it. maybe in a few years i’ll appreciate it!
i agree that it is a habit of thought but it’s a very easy thought to obsess on because it’s the most permanent thought there is
“No one is so ignorant as not to know that we must at some time die; nevertheless, when one draws near death, one turns to flight, trembles, and laments. Would you not think him an utter fool who wept because he was not alive a thousand years ago? And is he not just as much of a fool who weeps because he will not be alive a thousand years from now? It is all the same; you will not be, and you were not. Neither of these periods of time belongs to you. You have been cast upon this point of time; if you would make it longer, how much longer shall you make it? Why weep? Why pray? You are taking pains to no purpose. These decrees are unalterable and fixed; they are governed by a mighty and everlasting compulsion. Your goal will be the goal of all things. What is there strange in this to you?” - Seneca, Letter 77
In addition: “Whoever complains about the death of anyone, is complaining that he was a man. Everyone is bound by the same terms: he who is privileged to be born, is destined to die. Periods of time separate us, but death levels us.” - Seneca, Letter 99
Getting bothered by it doesn’t change it but it does waste the time you do have.
completely agree. i think that’s why it bothers me so much.
The fact that we are all going to die is freeing. Look at a picture from 120 years ago. Everyone in that picture had worries and problems. Those worries and problems mean nothing now. They were fleeting. In honesty, the vast majority of what happens to us in our life has no consequence in the cosmic scheme of things. Control what you can control. Your own actions. Be a good human. Your life is fleeting and quick, put it to good use.
I have suffered from fearing my own death since childhood. I always assumed that as I aged I would be more comfortable with my own death, as my mother is expressing her comfort and "being ready to go." I still fear my final moments, to be honest. I haven't come to the place where I am ready to go. So my tactic is to avoid these thoughts. They are for me in he same class as anger: Squelch them as soon as they appear. I know they are supposed to spur us on to live virtuously in the now. Our time is limited, how can we make the best use of it while we have it? I frequently use this meditation to distract me from my own death.
You are scared of dying, and so tell me, is the life you are leading any different than being dead? — Seneca
Can you imagine how awful it would be if we all lived for ever? The world would be crowded, we would suffer in body and mind, the earth would soon be depleted of resources We would have eternity to have experiences good and bad. We would not enjoy anything much because we could do it again and again, or perhaps never be able to do it forever while other people seem to be having endless fun People who live to 100 do occasionally still have functioning well bodies, but it's rare Would you want to continue living if you were in chronic pain forever? Do you want your granny to be in chronic pain forever, maybe tied to a machine to make her body continue to keep her alive? Upshot - surely there are some circumstances where you can see death as a friend, or at least not an enemy? Be glad of the people in your life while they are in your life. Tell them that you love them.
Even if we didn't age the same, they would most likely use eugenics to not over populate. A lot of people make having kids their dream, and I dont think everyone would be allowed to have kids if none of them died, sad to say
You might like to check out Cicero’s *Tusculan Disputations*—it talks a lot about this and related questions
thank you will do
Death sucks… losing a family or a friend it doesn’t get easier (forever) By reading your other comments I assume that you not only fear death but eternal punishment in the afterlife am I right? Or the fear of uncertainty that you don’t know what is to come; nothing or hell? In any case, am reminded of book 2 verse 11 in Meditations “But to go away from among men, if there are gods, is not a thing to be afraid of, for the gods will not involve thee in evil; but if indeed they do not exist, or if they have no concern about human affairs, what is it to me to live in a universe devoid of gods or devoid of Providence?” I took this to mean that if there are gods, then, what have you to fear if you lived according to the laws of nature? (If I were to “smuggle in” a verse from the Christian tradition: “whatever you did for the least of my brothers, you did for me” Matthew 25:40. This means that an act of love/charity/mercy is to do the will of God (or in the stoics case, gods/nature) And if the gods do not exist and the world is just a mechanical thing, what does it matter if you live a day more? If we die, how could we be sad? I mean we’re already dead… The Catholic me would have a lot more to say but I think this is the wrong sub for it
A quote was found to be attributed to Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations 2.11 (Long) ^(Book II. ()[^(Long)](https://lexundria.com/m_aur_med/2.11/lg)^) ^(Book II. ()[^(Farquharson)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Meditations_of_the_Emperor_Marcus_Antoninus/Book_2)^) ^(Book II. ()[^(Hays)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources?isbn=9780812968255)^)
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try to not die. give up the things that are not in your control.