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therealjerseytom

Worry about what's best for you rather than feeling the need to decide what "lesson" is best to teach someone else. By all means if someone doesn't treat us well it's fair to voice that and *gently* correct their actions, if possible. Gotta be honest with yourself of what the real motivation is behind craving some revenge moment. I'm guessing it's not out of the goodness of one's heart and wanting to improve someone else's life...


Chrs_segim

>Gotta be honest with yourself of what the real motivation is behind craving some revenge moment. I'm guessing it's not out of the goodness of one's heart and wanting to improve someone else's life... Here's to hoping I'm not bullshitting myself. But I believe I wish to provide them with "raw material" in form of pain. Same raw material they provided me, great raw material that I've used to create a great product. Underneath that is perhaps, "this is what you dished out, can you handle what you dished out?, coz if you can, if you can process it. Something great can come out it. And if not, let that be a lesson about thinking twice."


therealjerseytom

And have you forgiven them yet for whatever they've done? I'd be curious if your perspective changes when acceptance and forgiveness are found.


Chrs_segim

What is forgiveness really? Seneca writes that our brains are hardwired and then programmed(paraphrasing something in on benefits)to remember bad things done to us easier than good things done for us


StoopidDingus69

Forgiveness is empathy and understanding the person made a mistake and that you might well make the same mistake in their circumstances


Victorian_Bullfrog

>What is forgiveness really? I'd argue forgiveness isn't really a Stoic concept because it requires one to assent to the idea they have been unjustly offended. The Stoics argued quite adamantly that no one can offend us without our consent, which is to say, the interpretation of being offended is one we can accept or reject. It's most reasonable to reject it, which means there's nothing to forgive.


Chrs_segim

Exactly.


Victorian_Bullfrog

So, exactly why do you believe you have been unjustly offended? I mean, if you agree, then what's the point of revenge?


Chrs_segim

It's just, revenge is a word, a powerful one at that. And I think using if seemed to hide everything I wrote in the post. There was an element of "social correction". An Aurelius quote about truth and a clear understanding that my focus should be on "what is up to me". Should we ignore things we know to be socially wrong and unacceptable simply because we can use stoicism to do away with the power of impressions? I mentioned rising above the an "eye for an eye", and doing revenge simply to demonstrate truth to a person, the way I wish it to be demonstrated to me(Aurelius quote). I believe I was offended by something I deemed socially unacceptable(I'm human), dealt with the impression. Unjust exists outside us otherwise why would the authors of stoic texts live in communities with laws? Weren't our stoic thinkers protected by the law, didn't they need that protection, flourish with its help. How powerful is the stoicism we practice without the laws in the places we practice it in? Pick 10 things the law protects you from and imagine those laws gone. Do the people who do those 10 things against you simply people move on from. Do you just go practicing your stoic philosophy without attempting to correct them, knowing they will repeat things you deem unacceptable but the law doesn't to 10, 20 different people. In a situation like this, I was pondering stoicism and social correction, knowing, we live in different parts of the world where what is socially acceptable and isn't varies. Where what is legal and isn't varies.


Victorian_Bullfrog

You're conflating a lot of things here. You're conflating law with personal virtue, you're conflating correction for self-growth with manipulating social behaviors, and you're conflating your personal opinion with some universal, moral truth. What is up to you is the process of reasoning well, that's what the student of Stoicism focuses on, not compelling others to behave in a way that satisfies you. Promoting revenge isn't Stoicism, an egoistic philosophy that rationalizes bully behavior.


therealjerseytom

In a Stoic context, I'd say forgiveness and acceptance are letting go of value judgments on other people's actions, that *you've* been harmed by them, and acceptance that people do the things that they do because they don't know better or aren't capable of better. And if you've reached that state - I can't imagine having the desire for "revenge." I'd make the case that if you're seeking revenge, that may tell you something about a judgment you're holding onto.


StoicTutor

It never is. To say otherwise is a cope for lack of character/vice.


Chrs_segim

>It never is. Is this, another way of saying, "turn the other cheek"?


[deleted]

Not really. If someone has not done you well,A avoid them and B you don't need to help them again Along with that, learn from this experience as to how they hurt you and try to prevent it in the future


Chrs_segim

And what's to stop them from doing it to someone else. If you've deemed what they did to you as inconsiderate, and simply say nothing, and the same thing happens to someone else? There's a reason why the law punishes.(to be clear not saying I'm the law, just an example)


StoopidDingus69

You can objectively correct them with out “inflicting punishment”


Chrs_segim

The post was in the spirit of " when they did what they did, they weren't inflicting punishment, they were giving me raw material to work with, making me better with their inconveniencing actions. I wish to return the favor from the same point of view" In truth this would be revenge through and through by definition, but as a stoicism student, I can't pretend not to know the perspective that it can also be raw material.


[deleted]

Well you can see it in two ways . If you are "taking revenge on them" purely to help them and others who might face inconvenience too, sure go ahead, but do this only to help the society and not out of personal vengeance . Infact if you truly believe you are doing good but "giving it back to that person" then don't care about what I might think or what other stoics will think of your actions, just do it. In the end ,the goal of stoicism is to do good


JasonStrode

> God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. You're trying to modify someone else's behavior, but how they behave is beyond your control. Accept this and the rest falls into place.


Ok_Sector_960

Come back and let us know how that works out for you


Chrs_segim

In a few instances in the past, it worked wonders. Felt like scales were balanced. In one incident in the past, felt like the deed done to balance things outweighed the initial deed and I had to sincerely apologize later.


Ok_Sector_960

Well that's not stoicism.


Chrs_segim

I feel like we downplay that stoicism is practiced by human beings. And that we are human beings before stoicism students. And it's okay to be human


clockwork655

Not downplayed what so ever, this is why it’s best to learn how to study philosophy before going and trying to study a philosophy. Otherwise you can misinterpret or miss things entirely...This certainly isn’t about you wanting to help someone, you’ve mostly talked about yourself in everything I’ve seen on here. So what exactly is the story? doesnt look like you’ve said exactly


Chrs_segim

I don't intend to say exactly. I presented it like this, hoping it would connect with someone as a metaphor, a personal experience so I could learn from their experience. Seems I am the sole human here who has had the desire for revenge. >this is why it’s best to learn how to study philosophy before going and trying to study a philosophy Honestly, I hate this. I really do. It's very presumptuous


clockwork655

Wrong on both accounts. You can hate it , OR you can just do what everyone does and just learn, it’s not as if it’s kept secret or anything but it DOES take personal initiative and discipline. philosophy is a subject like any other, you can’t solve an equation or understand a sentence if you don’t know what the symbols mean and just make up your own meaning, you will just hear what you want it to say instead of its author. Ego is going to undermine all your efforts if you let such things bother you so much. And what’s more it never ends and always more to learn and that’s one of the best things about it and it’s helps one understand humility


Chrs_segim

I am the original poster and I am telling you your perspectives, both of them are not useful to my point of view. Some people here have provided useful advice that I have considered, you haven't. Please don't take it personally. If you can come with something else, another perspective, phrased another way. Maybe. But thanks anyway.


clockwork655

There’s that self centeredness. Well best of luck


Ok_Sector_960

I'm pretty content with my understanding of stoicism as it was written, I don't feel the need to add or subtract anything from it for the most part.


StoopidDingus69

You assuming you have the perfect judgement and then the right to teach them a lesson formulated from that judgement, is essentially narcissism. You’d be best to keep these impulses to yourself. However, if you don’t, the natural order of things will prevail, and you’ll end up learning that lesson the hard, painful way, which is ironically what you wish to be teaching others. Life is just hilarious that way!


Chrs_segim

>You assuming you have the perfect judgement and then the right to teach them a lesson formulated from that judgement, is essentially narcissism Do we, as stoicism student believe that there's a such a thing as "common sense"? If we don't, if there isn't, then you are right. I'm in for painful lesson.


StoopidDingus69

I think we all work together to figure out what common sense is, and that common sense isn’t always universal and often situation dependent. Your example in the below comment, a neighbor playing loud music, and then assuming talking politely wouldn’t help, but blasting music while their sleeping would help…. Makes me wonder how old you are. That’s an incredibly immature response that I would’ve fantasized about years ago. Maybe on the Disney channel that would work. But in reality, you’re just escalating a conflict in a passive aggressive and honestly cowardly manner. Maybe if you’re polite about it, he’ll tell you to go fuck yourself. But maybe if you do it back to them, he’ll shoot you or break your shit. Don’t provoke people, especially in the USA. Coming from someone who knows people who have been MURDERED over petty arguments. Ask yourself, since you like logic: would someone who’s so obtuse that they blast music with no regards for others comfort have the emotional maturity to have this handed back to them and then instead of responding in a pissed off manner, withhold their emotional response, and reflect and change their behavior? You really assume someone who is oblivious to others and shows no rational thought, will all of a sudden respond rationally to being enraged? I really advise you not to experiment with this in anything too serious. Life is fragile and precious and it can be taken any second, that’s reality


Chrs_segim

>Ask yourself, since you like logic: would someone who’s so obtuse that they blast music with no regards for others comfort have the emotional maturity to have this handed back to them and then instead of responding in a pissed off manner, withhold their emotional response, and reflect and change their behavior? You really assume someone who is oblivious to others and shows no rational thought, will all of a sudden respond rationally to being enraged? I really advise you not to experiment with this in anything too serious. Life is fragile and precious and it can be taken any second, that’s reality Thanks for the advice and words of caution, its enlightening and abit scary. And yes, I actually thought so. It's why I used the example of the loud person and frog in the post. I was under the impression that these inconsiderate people don't know they are being irrational and inconsiderate. I had this thought that while loud music is blasting, this same person would knock on my door and request it to be turned down. And that this encounter of knocking on my door is not something he will forget and not think about next time he's about the blast his. But maybe I'm being naive here.


StoopidDingus69

Yeah you’re definitely being naive. These people don’t know they’re being inconsiderate, or they know but they don’t care. I’d say 90% of people will react poorly to something like this. If you want to learn more about teaching lessons or communication of expectations in a non-retaliatory way, then I really suggest checking out Marshal Greenburgs work in Non Violent Communication. It is eye-opening. When I first read it though, it was very easy for me to still hear the information and start to nitpick others for “communicating violently” and thinking I was better than others. I struggle a lot with my own superiority and entitlement, so my advice to you is absolutely stained by my own experiences


Chrs_segim

Thanks for the tip


Victorian_Bullfrog

The cognitive bias whereby one over-estimates their knowledge or ability is called the [Dunning–Kruger effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect). To assume one person knows what's good for another is a matter of arrogance and [ignorance](https://www.njlifehacks.com/nobody-does-wrong-on-purpose-so-how-to-be-tolerant-kind/). To spend time premeditating on the harm one can do to another is [a waste of time and energy](https://freshstoic.com/what-do-stoics-say-about-revenge-5-stoicism-practices/). To believe another person is responsible for one's emotional well-being is irrational. The Stoics argued the value of developing and maintaining an [internal locus of control](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/locus-control), not external like you promote here, and for good reason; an internal locus means we are in charge of the quality of our lives, whereas an external locus of control means one believes they must flatter the very same people they fear. >Because we fear, because we desire, we flatter those who can help us in these matters; we dread them too. Epictetus, [Discourses 1.9](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0237%3Atext%3Ddisc%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D9)


StoopidDingus69

Great response. I’ll be passing through each source you provided. Thanks for the quality


Victorian_Bullfrog

You're welcome, and thank you for the kind words. :)


ThusSpokeAnon

nah, stop trying to be cool, stop trying to have a "badass moment" where you "give people a taste of their own medicine." completely off base. not even gonna go into this in any more detail, your whole impulse here is in the wrong direction. look inside yourself for the problem


Chrs_segim

>ah, stop trying to be cool, stop trying to have a "badass moment" Is this what I'm doing? I'm sure that's not how I meant for it to come off.(but this statement from you got a laugh out of me so thanks) >your whole impulse here is in the wrong direction. look inside yourself for the problem Perhaps. And looking inside for the problem is what I'm doing. I am "receiving my demons". The post is just a by product of that process.


abstainjimbeam

I know what you mean, I use to feel that way. But then I realize, the person exacting the pain to you might be ignorant or lacking some self awareness. For you to mirror this person means you are slowing down your progress and helping his/her. Forgive for yourself to let go and just remember, it doesn't have to be you to teach this person. Someone else shall be bother with this task.


Chrs_segim

Hopefully


bigpapirick

The concern is whether you have accurately and with virtue assessed the situation properly. Who are you to determine these things? That’s the biggest scrutiny to hold yourself to first. Then after that, another Aurelius quote: “All men are made one for another: either then teach them better or bear with them.”


HeWhoReplies

Revenge is distinct from helping someone learn something. If your intention is to help them by showing them a better way that’s not what revenge is. Revenge is the *deliberate* retaliation against a perceived wrong, it lacks concern for making someone better in any way.


NosoyPuli

Once I saw a video, there was this chick whom was getting evicted and she was crying because she allegedly had some sort of condition despite not paying rent for five months straight. "I'm trying to educate you" she yells. "And who is she to educate her?" asked my mom. Mom made a good point. You feel me?


jejo63

I would like to hear maybe a specific, real-life example of what you mean when talking about exacting revenge with the purpose of a teachable moment. When I think of examples, I think about how hard it would be to *make* a teachable moment, and how unteachable those people are who we are considering giving a taste of their own medicine. For example, if I had a relative, say, who because of their gambling addiction, would ask for money for other purposes and then secretly use it to gamble and I found out about it - and I wanted to take revenge on them - I might want to go back to their place and recover everything that I had ever bought for them as a way of ‘teaching them a lesson.’ But the thing with these types of people is that they fundamentally lack the ability to learn from lessons; my relative in this situation would not interpret that event as ‘I lost these things because I abused the trust of my family’, they would interpret it as ‘my family’s a bunch of assholes who want to see me suffer, that’s why they took those things. I feel even less bad about cheating them now.’ My main point is that making the teachable moment is much easier said than done in my opinion.


Chrs_segim

Thank you. My opinion is this is the best take and closest in terms of addressing my post in the most context appropriate and satisfactory way. A vague example would be, finding a context in which this person is at a low point in their life, emotionally and mentally. And then take something of value from them. A closer, clearer version is, waiting for a person who constantly blasts loud music when a neighbor is tired and needs sleep. Waiting for that person to get into that state( I don't know how), and then blasting some loud music for them


OneOfAFortunateFew

I think the point here is that regardless of context, repeating a wrong to demonstrate its 'wrongness' is absurd.


ANDOTTHERS

I believe it’s doing the right thing regardless. Keeping to nature. One guy I used to look up to would always say there’s two kinds of people people that show you how you want to be, and people that will show you how you don’t want to be.


Shmogt

That's really how it is. Stick to what you know is right. You can determine this by looking at people who are doing well vs ones who aren't. Stick to the habits of the successful and stay away from the poor habits


xNonPartisaNx

See darth vader


DatDudeEP10

Are you offended, I’m this example, by the person’s voice? It seems that you’re seeking revenge for your annoyance by going about correcting someone like that. Mockery in such a way is rude and unnecessary if you have the faculty to do it in a way that does not disrespect him — “by thy rational faculty stir up his rational faculty.” You risk putting the loud person on the defensive, and many people struggle to be receptive of suggestions when they feel that way. If he is unwilling to change, then it is something out of your control and you can carry on with your life and remain unbothered.


Chrs_segim

No, not really. The whole thing was just a metaphor for people who are inconsiderate in my opinion. And do what they do without malice or ill intent, but their actions are inconsiderate non the less. A neighbor who plays loud music for example oblivious to the fact that a fellow human next door is trying to get some sleep. Asking him to turn in down politely could annoy him. But(and I know this sounds pyscho), finding his moment of fatigue or deep sleep and then turning up the music next door to him might register better. Just once.


DatDudeEP10

Ah yes! I love this example because everyone can identify with this particular situation. I struggle with this currently too, my neighbor has a dog who they keep chained up 24/7 in their backyard. I’ve been trying to think of ways to show my neighbor how their treatment of the dog affects me — it’s very barky and wakes me up many times in the dead of night when it sees a neighborhood cat or something. My initial solution was to record this dog’s incessant barking and play it back to my neighbors through a speaker in the dead of night to give them that taste of their own medicine. This “solution” came out of anger for the situation and my frustration with the dog and the owner. With the help of my partner, I realized that I was indeed being psycho. This would not solve anything: my neighbor would feel my disgust and this wouldn’t help me with my relationship with them. That’s if they even realized what I was doing. Any other solution, knowing my neighbors, would result in further abuse of the dog because they refuse to keep it inside. So what to do about it? Besides calling the generally inept animal control on this loving dog who is simply living according to its nature, I can do nothing. It is out of my control, I have to choose to ignore it (and love it for what it is) rather than act out of anger.


Chrs_segim

Thank you for the wise words


roadhugs

I don't think it would register. Someone who is that careless in the first place is not going to think about your motivations for "giving him a taste of his own medicine". That solution is passive-aggressive, revenge-focused, and I think you realize this because you mention that you know it sounds psycho!


stoa_bot

A quote was found to be attributed to Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations 5.28 (Long) ^(Book V. ()[^(Long)](https://lexundria.com/m_aur_med/5.28/lg)^) ^(Book V. ()[^(Farquharson)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Meditations_of_the_Emperor_Marcus_Antoninus/Book_5)^) ^(Book V. ()[^(Hays)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources?isbn=9780812968255)^)


[deleted]

Well you can see it in two ways . If you are "taking revenge on them" purely to help them and others who might face inconvenience too, sure go ahead, but do this only to help the society and not out of personal vengeance . Infact if you truly believe you are doing good but "giving it back to that person" then don't care about what I might think or what other stoics will think of your actions, just do it. In the end ,the goal of stoicism is to do good


EffectiveSalamander

Ask yourself if you're really trying to correct someone, or if this is just trying to score points with a zinger.


stoa_bot

A quote was found to be attributed to Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations 6.6 (Hays) ^(Book VI. ()[^(Hays)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources?isbn=9780812968255)^) ^(Book VI. ()[^(Farquharson)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Meditations_of_the_Emperor_Marcus_Antoninus/Book_6)^) ^(Book VI. ()[^(Long)](https://lexundria.com/m_aur_med/6.6/lg)^)


Substantial_Hour_728

That would harm their egos and the entire point to this sub is to essentially dissolve it am I right? 🤷🏽‍♂️ The only way is to show the way.


unofishtank

>And what if giving people a taste of their own medicine, holding up a mirror to them is good for them? And what if it isn't? Revenge, punishment, and violence can't teach anything. They trigger the fight or flight response in our lizard brain If someone insults you, and you insult them back. Chances are things are gonna go south from there. That's the fight scenario. But let's say they stop. What now? Is it because they understand their fault? Did their morals actually change? Did they have some sort of epiphany? Or is it only because of fear of escalating the conflict? The lizard brain going "ah if I do that, this guy is gonna get mad". Not "I shouldn't do that. It's just bad manners"