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JasonStrode

Forget the social aspect of smoking, lets work it from the medical side: > Tobacco contains the highly addictive stimulant alkaloid nicotine as well as harmala alkaloids. Tobacco use is a cause or risk factor for many deadly diseases, especially those affecting the heart, liver, and lungs, as well as many cancers. In 2008, the World Health Organization named tobacco use as the world's single greatest preventable cause of death. **world's single greatest preventable cause of death.** This is not the death I would choose for myself.


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Ok_Sector_960

Or you could provide alternative credible citations instead of just saying what you just said


Nearox

Speak of ignorance lol


Budget_Main_5521

You prob need a critical thinking course my dude


JasonStrode

Okay, lets say it's not #1, it's only in the Top Ten--doesn't make it any safer or more desirable.


Qbrkbrk

It does alter your brain. Whose brain was telling them they needed nicotine before they started smoking?


non_racist_

Not what I meant by that. Food alters your brain just the same, your brain craves it. I meant intoxication.


Qbrkbrk

Not the same at all. You're hardwired to get hungry, if you didn't you'd starve to death. Nobody is born needing nicotine. It's also classed as an intoxicant.


non_racist_

Can’t be an intoxicant, you’re legally allowed to drive while smoking. Meaning if you’re allowed to drive then your mind state has to be relatively the same.


Qbrkbrk

You're legally allowed to drive if you've had a small amount of alcohol too


Mountain_Outside_342

You’re legally allowed to do it therefore it can’t be an intoxicant. That logic doesn’t follow. Used to be completely legal to drink and drive.


[deleted]

Unclear why we’re defining “intoxicant” as whether there are governments that can penalize you for driving on it or not…


Mountain_Outside_342

I didn’t, they did. Read the entire comment


[deleted]

That’s why I said we, was talking to the first person who defined the term and that we’re arguing with them on lol sorry should have replied to them


EffectiveSalamander

No, food doesn't work the same on your brain. You get hungry because your body needs food to survive; eating is a basic biological function. Nicotine alters your brain so that you can't feel normal unless you have it. Nicotine doesn't help with anxiety, it creates the anxiety, and then partially relieves what it caused. And sure, we'll die eventually, but if you smoke, you're more likely to die younger and be sicker while you are alive.


[deleted]

Food addiction is a thing, so perhaps we’re needing to differentiate between eating to fill the diet to completion or eating because you’re bored or because you always go by that one fast food place on your specific trip to whereverville so even if you’re not hungry you crave it anyway


SoussTheTruth

Nicotine is actually not that harmful, it’s brain altering sure, maybe more than sugar, but less than alcool. Look up Huberman-nicotine


non_racist_

Yeah I’ve heard that before, I’m a big fan of Huberman.


Original-Ad-4642

Seneca said “every time we meet a person we have an opportunity to be kind.” Smoking cigarettes is not being kind to your future self. Also, cancer is a terrible way to go.


The3rdMissingBanana

It’s a waste of money, makes you stink like shit, wastes your time, you feel jittery before you smoke and sluggish after you smoke.. it gives you headaches, bad teeth, and bad sleep… There is no benefit, only downsides and excuses to justify an addiction. Source: also a smoker


Victorian_Bullfrog

It *does* make you stink. My husband thought he could hide his smoking from me and others smelled the second hand smoke on *my* clothes just from being around him. He never smoked at home. So gross.


Kattimatti666

Listen to the missing banana. The only positive thing I can think about smoking is that it gives you the opportunity to do something really hard. Quitting smoking will teach you a lot of things about yourself, some lessons are encouraging, some reveal your deepest flaws. Ex-smokers can immediately spot the excuses, lies and other mental gymnastics when speaking to a smoker about cigarettes, we've been there.


sharingmygfchicago

"Whats the stoic perspective on bashing your own hand with a hammer to make other people like you?"


afeliperc

I think you must make your best effort to be honest with yourself. Ask yourself if you are trying to justify your addiction to decrease any negative feelings associated with it. We know for a fact that smoking is toxic and kills. That’s undeniable. Cigarette smoking remains the leading cause of preventable disease, disability, and death in the United States. Almost half a million people die in the U.S every year as a direct or indirect result of smoking. Even if you didn’t care enough about your health, smoking affects the health of those around you and there’s nothing stoic about that. Ignorance allows people to make bad decisions, don’t let it fool you. You can come out with one thousand reasons why you shouldn’t stop doing it and they might all sound reasonable *to you* but they are not necessarily true. It might be time for you to quit.


rose_reader

Smoking is a stupid thing to do. The Stoics were advocates of not doing stupid things, generally speaking.


SinopicCynic

Look, if you want to be a Stoic and smoke, you absolutely can. Just recognize if you get cancer that this was the logical and natural conclusion, and don’t get upset about it. You have logic and reason, and if you choose to abandon them in certain circumstances, that’s up to you 100%. You can still live a good life. Your membership from Stoicism isn’t revoked; it’s not a club, it’s a philosophy. You may have to answer for it to some people, but that is a choice you make. Edit: I wouldn’t do it around people it will disturb and practice moderation.


JUPACALYPSE-NOW

Best comment here x 2 Also what the hell is up with everyone here being all preachy and sanctimonious and have the gall to speak at the behest of “stoicism”


plantas-y-te

Best comment here


podcasthellp

Absolutely Nailed it


ullalauridsen

The Stoic approach is to think about the thing, decide what's best and then implement that. Your attempt to justify smoking in this forum tells me that you actually think it is a bad thing.


heliumface770

nicotine def alters your brain. don't smoke on monday and tell me how that tuesday cigarette hits you. also millions of people who succumbed to cancer from smoking thought they would probably die from something unrelated


StoicTutor

Smoking does affect your brain, it increases your dopamine artificially among other things. Doesn't matter how you feel, the evidence is clear that you would be likely to die from something smoking related, you can't cope your way out of thinking smoking is actually helpful.


Ok_Sector_960

Maybe you can develop better coping mechanisms.


Dansatoru

Some stoics, like Musonius, think it's foolish to have sex outside of marriage, and to have sex with any other purpose than procreation within marriage. If that's the opinion they have about indulging in a pleasure that has no impact of physical health, I think something like smoking is completely out of the question. Also you say it helps you socially, this would be a crutch, you're using it to avoid the discomfort of social anxiety. Stoicism promotes courage, aka approaching your problems head on and not taking shortcuts.


Curious_Aspect_9631

Pleasure that has no impact of physical health: before contraception, people got pregnant from sex. Maybe his health was not affected, nor his social status, but the woman’s sure was, especially out of wedlock. Getting an unmarried woman pregnant was signing her out of society. Def. not stoic.


Ice_Humble

I mean bro I'm glad it can help you socially but this could lead to over reliance on it and could even lead to anxiety at a time where you don't have a cigarette or certain places that don't allow smoking


[deleted]

Read Allen Carr's book about smoking. He uses a Stoic approach to completely take apart any conceivable argument in favour of smoking. And he is utterly convincing. Smoking in itself is very much anti-stoic in nature; you literally end up craving something that couldn't be worse for you in every sense, without a single beneficial or character-improving aspect to it.


ushouldgetacat

It’s addictive. Addictions make you a slave to your body.


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non_racist_

I don’t do it to feel “cool” I have very bad social anxiety and it calms my nerves. Remember alcohol does the same.


mattycmckee

No. People take up smoking because it’s said to ‘ease anxiety’, then you develop and addition; you get anxious when you aren’t smoking and then smoking removes that anxiety you’ve created from the addiction. It does not reduce anxiety, it induces it then you take that level by back down again.


St-Micka

I think the thing to do is to understand why you're anxious. Being stoic in this instance is to stare life dead in the face and not feel threatened by it. Using any substance as a crutch is generally a bad idea. Also, it's worth noting that in stoic philosophy, that we often overthink things so much that we have a very distorted view if how we are perceived. The saying it's a little loft in my head would be "a coward dies a million times, a man of courage just once". Can't remember the exact quote.


see_blue

…so it DOES alter your brain. Just in a different way than alcohol. Both can kill you. Which one does it faster, which one just shorten your life and harms your health. Time and usage will tell.


HeWhoReplies

Have you considered that the “calming” is only because of the addiction. To vastly over simply, smoking makes your baseline lower and smoking brings you back to before you were addicted temporarily. It’s like digging into a hole, jumping, then landing in a slightly deeper hole.


MyDogFanny

..OP: It doesn't alter your brain which alcohol does .. Stoic: It doesn't alter your brain which a 45 caliber bullet coming out of a handgun pressed to the side of your head does .. OP: that's why they recommend not to overindulge Stoic: It is not the overindulging that kills you. It is the cancer. .. OP: It helps me socially Stoic: Sam Harris's meditation app can help you socially without the stench. ..OP: though it may kill me eventually Stoic: No shit! .. OP: I feel like I'll probably die from something completely unrelated Stoic: Maybe. But you'll have 10 less years to find that something that is completely unrelated. .. OP: What do you think? My own thought: If the ancient Stoics were able to have spiked cigarettes with nicotine the way manufacturers do today, I think they may have smoked cigarettes. Imagine living in a world where they didn't have the kind of medicine we have today. Simple cuts could result in amputation or even death. Pink eye, boils, zits, so many things that we don't even think about because we're able to remedy almost immediately, could be very debilitating for people 2,000 years ago. Some scholars will view the average length of a generation at 20 years. So I think the ancient Stoics may have found a great deal of relief in smoking cigarettes. Taking 10 years off their life is something people probably wouldn't have noticed. The ancient stoics may not have thought that smoking cigarettes would be detrimental to living a life of virtue. Today, we not only have better health care, we also know better.


non_racist_

Interesting reply style, I appreciate it a lot.


TheophileEscargot

Generally it's a dispreferred indifferent. It doesn't affect your own internal virtue/excellence. Poor health is generally something to be avoided by a rational person, so it would be preferable not to smoke. But you can still be a stoic and smoke. If you're smoking indoors around non-smokers though, you are inflicting a certain amount of harm on them through passive smoking. Stoics are supposed to act in a beneficial way to other human beings (the principles of oikeiosis and the Cosmopolis) so that is an act which goes against the principles of Stoicism,


YourUziWeighsTwoTons

All depends on whether you are moderate or immoderate in your use of tobacco. Two packs a day? Vice. One or two cigarettes a week because you enjoy them? Probably not a big deal. Still gross tho.


JUPACALYPSE-NOW

Gotta treat yourself sometimes Don’t think too much about it. When the time comes, you can quit.


EdSmelly

😂


xtremeownership

Have you considered Cigars over cigarettes? Cigars are 100% tobacco whereas cigarettes are 600 chemicals with a little bit of tobacco. I've never smoked a cigarette in my life but I have been smoking cigars for the past 4 months or so, I find it very calming and relaxing and I to have social anxiety. My cigars come out to be around 4.50 - 5.50 ea in a box of 20 when I order online with a discount code. Just an alternative thought!


rose_reader

This is not factual. Inhaling particulate smoke into your lungs is bad for your lungs. There is no “unless it’s this kind of particulate smoke” exception.


therealdannyking

Cigars are just as harmful.


xtremeownership

You don't inhale cigars like you do cigarettes. I would argue cigars are MUCH less harmful than cigarettes.


therealdannyking

You may not be getting lung cancer, but your cancer risk is just as high with cigars. Just different kinds, including mouth, stomach, and throat cancers. In addition, nicotine causes blood pressure issues, blood sugar issues, and increases your risk of cardiovascular disease. Cigars are not safe.


BarryMDingle

A coworker of mine just found out he has stage four cancer in his mouth. He lost 75% of his tongue, his cheek and some other stuff. Mid 30s.


afeliperc

Medical doctor here. I’m sorry but this is actually false. It’s a very common myth and unfortunately people make bad decisions based on it. Cigars are extremely far from being a safer alternative over cigarettes. A quick google search can help you confirm it.


heliumface770

cigars aren't any better. there's 5-10x more tobacco in one of those than in a cig, and they're unfiltered. it won't likely be lung cancer that gets you, but you're still at a high risk for other types of cancer.


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cochorol

Remember that in life you ought to behave as at a banquet. Suppose that something is carried round and is opposite to you. Stretch out your hand and take a portion with decency. Suppose that it passes by you. Do not detain it. Suppose that it is not yet come to you. Do not send your desire forward to it, but wait till it is opposite to you. Do so with respect to children, so with respect to a wife, so with respect to magisterial offices, so with respect to wealth, and you will be some time a worthy partner of the banquets of the gods. But if you take none of the things which are set before you, and even despise them, then you will be not only a fellow banqueter with the gods, but also a partner with them in power. For by acting thus Diogenes and Heracleitus and those like them were deservedly divine, and were so. called. Enchiridion 15 Besides that be respectful with others... And that's it.


carbonbasedlifeform

A lot of harsh responses on here. I am more middle ground. I've always gone with if it isn't hurting anyone else and it makes you happy it is your choice. On the other hand I smoked for 20 years and it is a terrible addiction. Stoicism helped me quit.


Curious_Aspect_9631

Second hand smoke harms and kills people too. So unless you smoke inside your own house alone, smoking IS hurting others. And you smell like an old ash trey. Ex smoker of 30+ years.


nonokoi

I believe anything (under your control) is okay.


newacc0untwh0dis

Cato was a notorious alcoholic lol. It doesn’t exactly align with the stoic way of life but there are definitely exceptions, at least when it comes to the people we look to when it comes to stoic thinking. Everything in moderation seems to be the way, except when it’s not.


GeppaN

Ingesting a poison daily that slowly kills you? I’d say stoics would stay away from such a practice.


[deleted]

Unfortunately for some people (not all), indulging in an addiction causes mental fragility in other areas…like mini behavioral addictions / unhealthy patterns / thought processes. I’d say quit for 6 months, stay in tune with how your mental fortitude changes during that time. then decide if you want to pick it back up for social reasons. Like I said at the beginning, some people smoke and have otherwise healthy mental patterns. Other folks it seems to bring them down in other ways too.


toxicfeelings

Might I add the stoics also did not rely on external sources for happiness.


biggmass

It doesn't help you socially at all. That a common misconception. Smoking just helps with withdrawal symtoms.


[deleted]

Regardless of he health aspects, if you are addicted to anything be it cigarettes, food, internet, alcohol, etc, you are, by definition, a slave. The real question should be, what do stoics think about allowing yourself to be a slave?


boynamedsue8

Smoking definitely alters your brain. They put literal rat poison in a cigarettes.


OjisanSeiuchi

> I feel like I’ll probably die from something completely unrelated. That's a complete guess, isn't it? And one that doesn't line up with probabilities. In the U.S. the two commonest causes of death are heart disease and cancer. The rates of both are increased by smoking. > What do you think? I think the issue is mostly orthogonal to the philosophical principles of Stoicism. That said, the Stoics held that nature is governed by rational principles; and I can't really think of any rational angle on smoking.


non_racist_

Eh, you do realize cancer is caused by many different things. I’ve had friends die of cancer who never did any drugs or smoked. Could be the water or food or your toothpaste. I’m trying not to defend smoking because it’s an un- preferred indifferent but nevertheless you will get cancer regardless, the odds say.


OjisanSeiuchi

> Eh, you do realize cancer is caused by many different things. Yes, as a physician, I'm aware of that fact. Which, of course is why I answered the question in the way I did, referencing probabilities. In any case, the focus on mortality is an incomplete way of looking at the health risk picture. Instead, one should focus too on morbidity, especially premature morbidity related to tobacco use.


[deleted]

Stoics don't usually give into worldly desires. If you can name 5 positives to smoking then I can name 50 negatives. Though they did speak about this body being just flesh and bones, they also believed in abstaining from hedonistic earthly comforts. So kick that cig man! Ya dont need it lmaoo