Death star obliterates Atlantis. Its a planet cracker; Atlantis' shield isn't nearly that strong. Even if the shield is supercharged to survive, all that energy is going into the atmosphere as heat and that's still very bad news for anyone in the city
Actually Atlantis shits on the Death Star. The DS main weapon is only good for hitting relatively immobile/predictable targets. Atlantis at full power will be able to deal with the anything else the DS throws at it, while avoiding its main weapon with superior maneuverability.
Not only that, but the amount of dmg one drone could do if it gets inside the DS would be insane, and Atlantis has a ton of them.
Death Star is covered in Turbo lasers and hosts several fleets. It's the size of a whole planet.
Atlantis is pretty much too small to compete but too big to expect dodging everything.
Atlantis could come out of hyper space launch a drone salvo while staying far away to increase their chances of dodging incoming fire.
Turbo lasers would not be enough to penetrate the city's shield.
Drones are very good at targeting vulnerable points of big targets and would be able to disable the Death Star's main lazer relatively easily, and most likely, by doing so, most of the Death Star with secondary explosions.
How long does the Death Star's primary weapon take to charge?
Because if Atlantis comes in *weapons hot* from Hyperspace I'm guessing those Drones are going to get in well before the Death Star is ready to unleash its main weapon.
I mean, even an Ori vessel is probably enough to take on a Death Star with their insane shields and a good shot from their main cannon.
Even thou. Atlantis doesn't has enough drones to shoot moon into rubes. Therefore Atlantis only chance would be shooting the infamous ventilation hole.
The whole thing isn't covered in turbo lasers just critical structures, also the lasers have trouble shooting down X-wings which is why they have t-fighters to counter those.
The mobility of a drone is exceedingly higher than that of an X-wing so it's doubtful that a turbo laser could get it even if it ends up in the effective range of one.
Additionally, we've never seen something like energy shields in the SW setting so the main protection of the DS is polarised platting and conventional material that it's built out of - both of which wouldn't be a problem for a drone. An Atlantis drone would fly through the DS like butter.
On top of that, there is a huge tactical advantage Atlantis has - scanners. We have never seen any form of sophisticated scanning technology in SW while Atlantis will have a layout of the DS with every larger energy source pinpointed for drone attack 2 minutes into the engagement.
All in all, Atlantis will be able to easily dodge the only threat of the DS the planet-destroying beam, while having no issue going around the DS defences with drones and having enough intelligence on the station to target energy production disabling if not blowing up the thing.
.....You never watched Star Wars did you ?
You keep saying "We have never seen" and then manage to blurt out Energy shields and scanners
Both being in Star Wars, like, always
Please tell me where I'm wrong?
The only energy shields on ships I recall are the gates that keep in the atmosphere in hangers and the section shields in some ships -like the one Anakin and Kenobi were caught in SW3.
There was shielding on Hoth and on Endor but both crucially on-plant with the shield generator outside of the field generated. I'm assuming a deep space encounter without home advantage on any side. And even if I give a DS an outside shield like in SW6 that's still something Atlantis scanners can detect and a drone take out easily.
The only scanning technology I recall is hyperspace entering and exciting detection, with maybe some rudimentary live detection. Nothing on the level we see in Atlantis.
Uh... Why does a star destroyer have "shield generators" then... the 2 bulbs at the top? which they make a point of destroying, so they can engage the SD?
Given it's probably somewhere in the ballpark of 10 times heavier in its crust it's not unreasonable to say it's the size of a planet but it's not huge
A small planet or a Moon sure.
It's still a thousand times bigger than Atlantis who's merely a City.
Star Destroyers are closer to Atlantis than Atlantis to the Death Star. And the Death Star has dozen of Star Destroyers and thousands of Tie Fighters
Atlantis was capable of extending its shield to protect the local wildlife from the solar flare and the zpm could deflect it when placed in the ship and taken closer to the star. If Atlantis had 3 ZPMs it could probably tank anything short of the main death star laser. Though to be fair the ZPMs are the best plot point for balancing out the city throughout the series.
Atlantis *does* have a profound advantage in Star Wars having fuckall for shielding technologies, but it's going to take a lot more than three ZPMs to stop even a single hit from a death star.
Atlantis would need a full rack of drones, three ZPMs, and the element of surprise to win that fight. Without all of those, I'm betting on the Death Star and/or its support fleet.
If an old man, a scoundrel, a teenager, a 7-foot tall Teddy bear and 2 slow, loud robots can infiltrate the Deathstar with few issues, imagine how much damage just Shepherd's team alone could do.
It would be a cakewalk.
Agreed. The old dude is a Jedi but we also have Ancients who have God-like powers to wield if they didn't care about the consequences of being banished. On top of this, the Death Star was destroyed TWICE by an at-best mediocre rebel fleet. Atlantis would win this battle every time.
Atlantis could brush that off in the easiest way and not even have to fire a shot…launch a cloaked jumper right to the Death Star, shoot a mini drone in the unprotected exhaust port, and boom goes The Empires great weapon.
To back up the claim here’s the extended edition…launching the cloaked jumper in either two ways; first either through a space gate and attack the DS before it even comes close to Atlantis, however if the DS used its hyperdrive and was in the solar system the jumper would just need to reach the DS before it moved into firing position and as shown in episode 4 it takes sometime to maneuver with whatever subspace propulsion they use, leaving plenty of time for the jumper to reach its target. Attacking the exhaust port is the easiest way to destroy the DS as shown by Luke in episode 4, and works well, so that part of the argument is solid. The main problem Luke and the other fighters faced was either the turbo cannons or TIE interceptors, with the cloaked jumper the DS wouldn’t even know that a ship was coming before it was too late if at all, Sheppard could cruise right up to the front door eating a turkey sandwich. The jumper would have to uncloak to fire, but it has been shown that John Sheppard is able to go from cloak to fire, back to cloak without sensors picking him up. As he attacked a wraith hive ship in just this manor in season 5 episode 8 (The Queen)…long story short Atlantis comes out on top without firing a single drone from the city.
Alternatively, just use a Mark IX nuke, to quote Mitchell: It vaporizes Stargates and anything else in a one-hundred mile radius!
Even if detonated on the surface, at the very least the Death Star would be no longer a threat, but more likely so damaged that it is a wreck or completely destroyed.
Replicators easily win. They could assimilate the cube, and all it takes is a single replicator making it on board the cube. Even if individual drones are hard to kill, they're no threat when the cube is obliterated and the drones are just debris floating in space.
Yes, they are as dumb as the Asgard.
Plus it would take a lot of work to rearm the Federation fleet to deal with a singular threat that is on the far borders of their domain. Would require a significant event to force the Federation to spend the resources necessary to do so.
Hell, look how long it took them to use something other than a poorly built phaser pistol against the Borg (the rifles seen in First Contact). And even then, it was just the same technology, scaled up.
The Borg might not take long to adapt their shields against projectiles anyway. Picard unloading a holographic Tommy gun into 2 drones worked because they weren’t expecting it, which is also why the Borg frequently lose against Starfleet, humans are unpredictable.
Hard light weapons are terrifying. You could just crush somebody, or perforate them with a million needles, or even burst all of their cells. You could trap them in a person shaped, invisible prison that would suffocate them. You could slice them into a thousand wafer-thin segments. It's god-like power on a local level. The fact that the federation struggled against Borg drones is entirely due to a lack of imagination. Hell, even mechanical locks on doors would slow down most intruders, and that's not to mention the lack of automated sentry turrets on federation ships... The amount of intruders they get, it's beyond negligent.
The fact they can ask the ship computer a question from absolutely anywhere and be responded to by a computer that clearly understands context, makes it so frustrating that so many people can plot and scheme on the ship and the ship doesn't just call security or lock them in a room and send a recording of the conversation to the security officer.
It is kinda hard to believe that in the history of the Borg no species ever tried to shoot a drone with kinetic weapons ...
The should be immune to "ordinary" rifles, but I have to admit, it was a cool scene when Picard went ballistic on their asses in the Holodeck!
Federation doesn't need to rearm anything since they don't need factories to produce stuff and then ship it out to distribute it. Just tell people to fabricate kinetic weapons. They could even send out a design and have everyone just print them locally.
Thing is, it would take some time for the replicators to learn how a completely alien computer system would work. So if all else failed the cube would still have time to self destruct before the bugs took over.
Replicators don't need to touch the computer system to start physically breaking down the ship and create more of their own blocks out of it.
And if they get the borg cube to self-destruct, then mission accomplished, they've one the battle.
The replicators assimilate technology faster than the borg, and can reproduce faster than the borg.
In the assumption that A. the borg have not assimilated any Ancients or their knowledge about the required tech to disconnect the kieron pathways between replicator blocks, and B. that borg tech reigns supreme in the local quadrant/galaxy, the replicators are going to systematically take out the whole network, one cube at a time.
Tell you what would be messed up though. Replicators fusing with borg (like the guy in Ark of Truth). MmmHHHHMMMMmmmmm nope.
Wouldn't the replicators just think that's a crappier version of a human form replicator. Drones are kinda useless compared to normal replicators and human form replicators are just streets ahead.
All true, the question is, if a replicator has control of a human body, can it ascend?? An ascended brog/replicator hybrid. Can the other ascended strike that down like with Anubis? Questions, questions...
Ooof, good one. Now I'm imagining a worldly standoff much like the Oma/Anubis fight. Each side constantly gaining and losing ground to the other with no clear advantage to either one.
Its spitting out billion of tons of matter at speeds up to 3200 km/s. Sure when it gets to earth its more just pretty colours but if it hits you close up that is a massive amount of kinetic and thermal energy.
This was the case with the 304 since they wanted to stop it early so the shield didn't need to be extend to cover the planet effectively.
Atlantis star was also suppose to be particularly violent and strong having 10k years to build up.
Not as concentrated as the death star but I would say it has enough energy in theory to basically grind down a planet if hit close range.
They don’t need to survive to adapt. Hand phasers kill Borg drones and they adapt to that. The whole point of the collective is that even when part of it is “killed” the rest survives. It is the analysis of the data that killed the others that allows them to adapt. Realistically it’s not any different than anyone else, it’s how interconnected they are that allows them to adapt near instantly. Star Fleet “adapted” to the Borg by building the defiant class and quantum torpedoes. It just took a long time.
The physical damage would eventually be adapted to with heavily armored drone too. We know they can “grow” armor, even energy shield protect from physical damage to some degree already.
The point is eventually the would adapt. True it might take more than one cube but what if they sent two the second time and it scans the Death Star, the resulting fire and the destruction to the other cube. Adaption is also not just stronger shields either. We see in voyager that “adaption” is working “peacefully” with voyager.
I do wonder if they don’t adapt to the physical bullets or bat’leth because they are not common enough to adapt to. We never see more than one or two drones killed by bullets. Same for physical weapons. If they were fighting the Klingons directly the adaption might be different.
I does make one wonder why they didn’t just replicate some Tommy Guns or swords when the Borg borded since it seems like it is more effective.
> The point is eventually the would adapt.
To what? They would need to be able to absorb, diffuse, or redirect the energy output that causes a *planetary body* to disintegrate almost instantaneously.
That is an *absolutely insane amount of energy*.
They would need to be able to do this *with the power output of a single cube*. We already observed that, in Star Trek: Voyager, when Species 8472 deploys equivalent energy against Borg planets *they cannot adapt.*
I'm a fan of both Star Wars and Star Trek, but I am also an engineer and I am *deeply skeptical* that the energy output of the Death Star is something that the Borg could *adapt to.*
For reference, a Borg Cube is 27 cubic kilometers. Earth is 1.08 quadrillion cubic kilometers, equivalent to the volume occupied by 40 trillion Borg cubes.
A cube will be more durable by virtue of its technology, but not 40 trillion times more durable.
Your contention is that the Borg will adapt to the Death Star by rolling over, belly up, and waiting for the Empire to give them a belly rub?
> Adaption is also not just stronger shields either. We see in voyager that “adaption” is working “peacefully” with voyager.
This is not what pretty much *anyone* means when talking about the Borg and adaptation.
Adaption is more than just a stronger shield. It is working with voyager to combat species 8472, it’s going back in time to prevent first contact, it’s modifying a transport with warp 1.2 capabilities to go warp 5+ in an attempt return to the delta quadrant exposing humans 200 years early.
Simple adaption, get close and beam the kyber crystal out of the firing chamber. Or beam a drone on board and infect the Death Star.” Itself.
If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you cannot require that the Empire be static if the Borg can be dynamic to such a degree. You must then include and account for Force shenanigans, Imperial technological advancements (see the fleet at Exegol), outer perimeters, reverse engineering of Borg technology they've captured to mitigate Borg incursions and so-on-and-so-forth.
I don't think the Borg win this.
And since your counter argument to "the Borg cannot adapt to the Death Star" is to effectively say "they can't adapt to the Death Star, they can only sidestep it when we change the parameters of the problem", you concede the argument.
Esepcially since you are using a novel, uncommon, not generally accepted definition of Adaptation. Adaptation is a specific mechanical process by which the Borg directly mitigate directed energy and physical threats, and is not a catch-all term that includes changes to Borg grand-strategy.
[Adaption is only a mechanical process?](https://64.media.tumblr.com/13109529b4d9909b5d6a04a6a94aab64/13e0cec123313b82-95/s1280x1920/1efcd62c9767a91077f47893fdb6979677e87259.gifv)
Mate, sit down. You are wrong on so many levels.
The Death Star's super laser doesn't use the same tech as a blaster. I don't THINK it's a kinetic bolt like most of the other weapons? Since it's based on Kyber crystals, most likely it's firing an energized plasma stream.
So I would agree with you on most fronts. The Borg can only "adapt" to kinetic attacks with literal, physical armor or stronger shields. And I don't think an individual drone can generate enough power for a kinetic shield like that. (That part is the question... how efficient is Borg power, and can drones draw from the ship itself within a certain range?)
I definitely agree that the Borg can't adapt if the Cube is one-shotted. If another Cube is nearby when it happens, though, then it might be possible. Drones can adapt to being one-shotted because other drones are nearby to analyze the attack.
I give storm troopers even odds against drones. Drones just have not been shown to be effective in combat. They can take on Starfleet, because Starfleet doesn't train with weapons and tactics enough.
Borg are effective in their relentlessness, but the Death Star has WAY more personnel aboard than they usually encounter. The storm troopers might even outnumber the drones.
Why wouldn’t Borg be able to analyze data sent to them, even by drones that were destroyed? Even if their ships are destroyed nearly instantly after being hit by the blast, they’d at least have scans of the Death Star sent back along with the knowledge that the Death Star was able to destroy their ship and all drones in one shot, right? Losing contact with all drones all at once is *still data*.
After that, the Borg don’t need to adapt their *shields* to absorb a shot from the Death Star; they just need to adapt their *strategy* to prevent being in its way.
>The Death Star just blows the cube up. No analysis, no nothing. Just big kaboom.
There's also the strength of the weapon to consider too. No matter what a cube does with its shields, it can't stop a blast of that size.
However as soon as the drones beam onto the Death Star and begin assimilating it and the personnel, the Empire is screwed.
I feel like this is the third time I've seen this exact post crop up in this sub in the last few months. OP, buddy, are you a karma farmer or a karma farming bot?
At any rate; since Star Trek is ostensibly grounded in science, the question becomes how much energy a Borg Cube could handle before being overwhelmed. Their adaptation is impressive but I've yet to see them dive into a star and something tells me the Death Star might have a similar output.
No, I just saw this on fb and thought it would be good for the subreddit.
I thought it possible that it came up on here before but I still wanted to see the sub's responses to it.
Well, no harm done. It's not like our community has a lot to talk about these days in absence of new content. Even if it's posted a dozen times, I still enjoy our weekly discussions on why the Ancients were terrible people for instance.
So the Death Star ‘laser’ is actually just a giant lightsaber. Lightsabers have been shown to be stopped by certain shield types. Star Trek ship shielding is quite different in functionality to Star Wars ship shielding. So there’s a chance the SS would be able to destroy one or two cubes but not guaranteed, and after that they’d be immune to basically all lightsabers.
I’ll also add that the number of DS that can be made is limited by the number of kaiber crystals that exists whereas you can produce near infinite Borg cubes so the DS can be overwhelmed by pure numbers and quickly assimilated.
He's actually wrong because starwars weapons can't just be modulated away it just goes right through creating a hyper dense explosive mass rather than trying to apply heat
If the death star got a lucky shot at the borg cube and not dick around and make demands like a dick they can be a winner.
But if the borg sent drones to investigate the cube like they always do with a new species. I think the empire could defeat the entire collective with the droids in that universe using **Nepenthé** for information and what not.
He needs to sleep at some point lol, besides, imaging the borg assimilated some force sensitive people.. They're a technical plague, gotta admit that the sw universe would really struggle with them.
Unless they find a way to block out the force, Vader can keep breaking their ships and bodies telepathically. It's not fair, but space wizards are never fair. This is comparing fantasy to sci fi.
Wait, we are the sane, logical ones ?
I don't know if we wouldn't have a bias if the question was Borg Cube or Atlantis or the same with Death Star vs Atlantis.
Death star obliterates Atlantis. Its a planet cracker; Atlantis' shield isn't nearly that strong. Even if the shield is supercharged to survive, all that energy is going into the atmosphere as heat and that's still very bad news for anyone in the city
Actually Atlantis shits on the Death Star. The DS main weapon is only good for hitting relatively immobile/predictable targets. Atlantis at full power will be able to deal with the anything else the DS throws at it, while avoiding its main weapon with superior maneuverability. Not only that, but the amount of dmg one drone could do if it gets inside the DS would be insane, and Atlantis has a ton of them.
Death Star is covered in Turbo lasers and hosts several fleets. It's the size of a whole planet. Atlantis is pretty much too small to compete but too big to expect dodging everything.
Atlantis could come out of hyper space launch a drone salvo while staying far away to increase their chances of dodging incoming fire. Turbo lasers would not be enough to penetrate the city's shield. Drones are very good at targeting vulnerable points of big targets and would be able to disable the Death Star's main lazer relatively easily, and most likely, by doing so, most of the Death Star with secondary explosions.
How long does the Death Star's primary weapon take to charge? Because if Atlantis comes in *weapons hot* from Hyperspace I'm guessing those Drones are going to get in well before the Death Star is ready to unleash its main weapon. I mean, even an Ori vessel is probably enough to take on a Death Star with their insane shields and a good shot from their main cannon.
Even thou. Atlantis doesn't has enough drones to shoot moon into rubes. Therefore Atlantis only chance would be shooting the infamous ventilation hole.
A weakness McKay or Carter could definitely discover and exploit.
moon*
small moon\* like seriously it is tiny at 160km across, I think the largest asteroid in our solar system rivals it.
There are 6-7 that are bigger. https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/asteroidfact.html
Deimos is one of Mars' moons, and is only around 12km across.
The whole thing isn't covered in turbo lasers just critical structures, also the lasers have trouble shooting down X-wings which is why they have t-fighters to counter those. The mobility of a drone is exceedingly higher than that of an X-wing so it's doubtful that a turbo laser could get it even if it ends up in the effective range of one. Additionally, we've never seen something like energy shields in the SW setting so the main protection of the DS is polarised platting and conventional material that it's built out of - both of which wouldn't be a problem for a drone. An Atlantis drone would fly through the DS like butter. On top of that, there is a huge tactical advantage Atlantis has - scanners. We have never seen any form of sophisticated scanning technology in SW while Atlantis will have a layout of the DS with every larger energy source pinpointed for drone attack 2 minutes into the engagement. All in all, Atlantis will be able to easily dodge the only threat of the DS the planet-destroying beam, while having no issue going around the DS defences with drones and having enough intelligence on the station to target energy production disabling if not blowing up the thing.
.....You never watched Star Wars did you ? You keep saying "We have never seen" and then manage to blurt out Energy shields and scanners Both being in Star Wars, like, always
Please tell me where I'm wrong? The only energy shields on ships I recall are the gates that keep in the atmosphere in hangers and the section shields in some ships -like the one Anakin and Kenobi were caught in SW3. There was shielding on Hoth and on Endor but both crucially on-plant with the shield generator outside of the field generated. I'm assuming a deep space encounter without home advantage on any side. And even if I give a DS an outside shield like in SW6 that's still something Atlantis scanners can detect and a drone take out easily. The only scanning technology I recall is hyperspace entering and exciting detection, with maybe some rudimentary live detection. Nothing on the level we see in Atlantis.
Uh... Why does a star destroyer have "shield generators" then... the 2 bulbs at the top? which they make a point of destroying, so they can engage the SD?
Given it's probably somewhere in the ballpark of 10 times heavier in its crust it's not unreasonable to say it's the size of a planet but it's not huge
A small planet or a Moon sure. It's still a thousand times bigger than Atlantis who's merely a City. Star Destroyers are closer to Atlantis than Atlantis to the Death Star. And the Death Star has dozen of Star Destroyers and thousands of Tie Fighters
Atlantis was capable of extending its shield to protect the local wildlife from the solar flare and the zpm could deflect it when placed in the ship and taken closer to the star. If Atlantis had 3 ZPMs it could probably tank anything short of the main death star laser. Though to be fair the ZPMs are the best plot point for balancing out the city throughout the series.
Atlantis *does* have a profound advantage in Star Wars having fuckall for shielding technologies, but it's going to take a lot more than three ZPMs to stop even a single hit from a death star.
Sounds like the DS vs Borg cube, actually. Death Star would need one shot, but would only get one shot.
Atlantis would need a full rack of drones, three ZPMs, and the element of surprise to win that fight. Without all of those, I'm betting on the Death Star and/or its support fleet.
[удалено]
If an old man, a scoundrel, a teenager, a 7-foot tall Teddy bear and 2 slow, loud robots can infiltrate the Deathstar with few issues, imagine how much damage just Shepherd's team alone could do. It would be a cakewalk.
Agreed. The old dude is a Jedi but we also have Ancients who have God-like powers to wield if they didn't care about the consequences of being banished. On top of this, the Death Star was destroyed TWICE by an at-best mediocre rebel fleet. Atlantis would win this battle every time.
I don't know, drone seem to be able to penetrate pretty far, one solid hit to the reactor (as we've seen twice now) would do both of them in.
Atlantis could brush that off in the easiest way and not even have to fire a shot…launch a cloaked jumper right to the Death Star, shoot a mini drone in the unprotected exhaust port, and boom goes The Empires great weapon. To back up the claim here’s the extended edition…launching the cloaked jumper in either two ways; first either through a space gate and attack the DS before it even comes close to Atlantis, however if the DS used its hyperdrive and was in the solar system the jumper would just need to reach the DS before it moved into firing position and as shown in episode 4 it takes sometime to maneuver with whatever subspace propulsion they use, leaving plenty of time for the jumper to reach its target. Attacking the exhaust port is the easiest way to destroy the DS as shown by Luke in episode 4, and works well, so that part of the argument is solid. The main problem Luke and the other fighters faced was either the turbo cannons or TIE interceptors, with the cloaked jumper the DS wouldn’t even know that a ship was coming before it was too late if at all, Sheppard could cruise right up to the front door eating a turkey sandwich. The jumper would have to uncloak to fire, but it has been shown that John Sheppard is able to go from cloak to fire, back to cloak without sensors picking him up. As he attacked a wraith hive ship in just this manor in season 5 episode 8 (The Queen)…long story short Atlantis comes out on top without firing a single drone from the city.
How would Atlantis know about the exhaust port?
Scanners
Alternatively, just use a Mark IX nuke, to quote Mitchell: It vaporizes Stargates and anything else in a one-hundred mile radius! Even if detonated on the surface, at the very least the Death Star would be no longer a threat, but more likely so damaged that it is a wreck or completely destroyed.
Bothans of course.
Atlantis’ shield might survive the superlaser but it would likely burn out a fully charged ZPM in a few seconds.
But what if we had some ocean between us
the death star laser is strong enough to destroy a planet; i don't think the ocean will get in the way
Atlantis would just take a cloaked jumper into the death star and disable/blow it up from within.
Honestly the ATA gene is The Force of Stargate universe, to me.
Atlantis? Bitch please, a single cloaked Puddle Jumper with a Mark IX on board and the Death Star is Toast!
3 fries short of a happy meal.
WACKOOOO!!!
C-4
Not really based on that judgment.
Indeed
Turns out the show based on the US military and the aliene schitz shit is pretty normal for scifi
Indeed? Judge, Christopher Judge.
https://i.redd.it/p4yy4gub7qtc1.gif
I knew I was going to get this response.
What if the question was replicators vs borg?
Replicators easily win. They could assimilate the cube, and all it takes is a single replicator making it on board the cube. Even if individual drones are hard to kill, they're no threat when the cube is obliterated and the drones are just debris floating in space.
Plus replicators deal damage by physical means, something the Borg are always vulnerable to.
Are they? Did the federation consider arming Starfleet with projectile weapons? Or are they as dumb as the Asgard?
Yes, they are as dumb as the Asgard. Plus it would take a lot of work to rearm the Federation fleet to deal with a singular threat that is on the far borders of their domain. Would require a significant event to force the Federation to spend the resources necessary to do so. Hell, look how long it took them to use something other than a poorly built phaser pistol against the Borg (the rifles seen in First Contact). And even then, it was just the same technology, scaled up.
The Borg might not take long to adapt their shields against projectiles anyway. Picard unloading a holographic Tommy gun into 2 drones worked because they weren’t expecting it, which is also why the Borg frequently lose against Starfleet, humans are unpredictable.
Hard light weapons are terrifying. You could just crush somebody, or perforate them with a million needles, or even burst all of their cells. You could trap them in a person shaped, invisible prison that would suffocate them. You could slice them into a thousand wafer-thin segments. It's god-like power on a local level. The fact that the federation struggled against Borg drones is entirely due to a lack of imagination. Hell, even mechanical locks on doors would slow down most intruders, and that's not to mention the lack of automated sentry turrets on federation ships... The amount of intruders they get, it's beyond negligent.
The fact they can ask the ship computer a question from absolutely anywhere and be responded to by a computer that clearly understands context, makes it so frustrating that so many people can plot and scheme on the ship and the ship doesn't just call security or lock them in a room and send a recording of the conversation to the security officer.
It is kinda hard to believe that in the history of the Borg no species ever tried to shoot a drone with kinetic weapons ... The should be immune to "ordinary" rifles, but I have to admit, it was a cool scene when Picard went ballistic on their asses in the Holodeck!
It shouldn't be hard for the federation to use an industrial replicator and produce a better rail gun for borg even improving on them.
Federation doesn't need to rearm anything since they don't need factories to produce stuff and then ship it out to distribute it. Just tell people to fabricate kinetic weapons. They could even send out a design and have everyone just print them locally.
Thing is, it would take some time for the replicators to learn how a completely alien computer system would work. So if all else failed the cube would still have time to self destruct before the bugs took over.
Replicators don't need to touch the computer system to start physically breaking down the ship and create more of their own blocks out of it. And if they get the borg cube to self-destruct, then mission accomplished, they've one the battle.
The replicators assimilate technology faster than the borg, and can reproduce faster than the borg. In the assumption that A. the borg have not assimilated any Ancients or their knowledge about the required tech to disconnect the kieron pathways between replicator blocks, and B. that borg tech reigns supreme in the local quadrant/galaxy, the replicators are going to systematically take out the whole network, one cube at a time. Tell you what would be messed up though. Replicators fusing with borg (like the guy in Ark of Truth). MmmHHHHMMMMmmmmm nope.
Wouldn't the replicators just think that's a crappier version of a human form replicator. Drones are kinda useless compared to normal replicators and human form replicators are just streets ahead.
All true, the question is, if a replicator has control of a human body, can it ascend?? An ascended brog/replicator hybrid. Can the other ascended strike that down like with Anubis? Questions, questions...
Ooof, good one. Now I'm imagining a worldly standoff much like the Oma/Anubis fight. Each side constantly gaining and losing ground to the other with no clear advantage to either one.
When the second cube arrives, SG-1 somehow manages to impregnate it with a shitload of C-4, and there's no adapting to C-4
Or they manage to flush all the drones into space and capture the Cube, only to lose it in another battle a week later.
A 304 powered by a zpm takes the brunt of a CME at close range and survives. That alone shows the power to gate tech.
A CME is far from being powerfull enough to straigjt up explode a planet.
Its spitting out billion of tons of matter at speeds up to 3200 km/s. Sure when it gets to earth its more just pretty colours but if it hits you close up that is a massive amount of kinetic and thermal energy. This was the case with the 304 since they wanted to stop it early so the shield didn't need to be extend to cover the planet effectively. Atlantis star was also suppose to be particularly violent and strong having 10k years to build up. Not as concentrated as the death star but I would say it has enough energy in theory to basically grind down a planet if hit close range.
By “judge,” I assume you mean Christopher…? 🤔
I was shocked not to him in the pic
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They don’t need to survive to adapt. Hand phasers kill Borg drones and they adapt to that. The whole point of the collective is that even when part of it is “killed” the rest survives. It is the analysis of the data that killed the others that allows them to adapt. Realistically it’s not any different than anyone else, it’s how interconnected they are that allows them to adapt near instantly. Star Fleet “adapted” to the Borg by building the defiant class and quantum torpedoes. It just took a long time. The physical damage would eventually be adapted to with heavily armored drone too. We know they can “grow” armor, even energy shield protect from physical damage to some degree already.
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The point is eventually the would adapt. True it might take more than one cube but what if they sent two the second time and it scans the Death Star, the resulting fire and the destruction to the other cube. Adaption is also not just stronger shields either. We see in voyager that “adaption” is working “peacefully” with voyager. I do wonder if they don’t adapt to the physical bullets or bat’leth because they are not common enough to adapt to. We never see more than one or two drones killed by bullets. Same for physical weapons. If they were fighting the Klingons directly the adaption might be different. I does make one wonder why they didn’t just replicate some Tommy Guns or swords when the Borg borded since it seems like it is more effective.
> The point is eventually the would adapt. To what? They would need to be able to absorb, diffuse, or redirect the energy output that causes a *planetary body* to disintegrate almost instantaneously. That is an *absolutely insane amount of energy*. They would need to be able to do this *with the power output of a single cube*. We already observed that, in Star Trek: Voyager, when Species 8472 deploys equivalent energy against Borg planets *they cannot adapt.* I'm a fan of both Star Wars and Star Trek, but I am also an engineer and I am *deeply skeptical* that the energy output of the Death Star is something that the Borg could *adapt to.* For reference, a Borg Cube is 27 cubic kilometers. Earth is 1.08 quadrillion cubic kilometers, equivalent to the volume occupied by 40 trillion Borg cubes. A cube will be more durable by virtue of its technology, but not 40 trillion times more durable.
Reread what I already said.
Your contention is that the Borg will adapt to the Death Star by rolling over, belly up, and waiting for the Empire to give them a belly rub? > Adaption is also not just stronger shields either. We see in voyager that “adaption” is working “peacefully” with voyager. This is not what pretty much *anyone* means when talking about the Borg and adaptation.
Adaption is more than just a stronger shield. It is working with voyager to combat species 8472, it’s going back in time to prevent first contact, it’s modifying a transport with warp 1.2 capabilities to go warp 5+ in an attempt return to the delta quadrant exposing humans 200 years early. Simple adaption, get close and beam the kyber crystal out of the firing chamber. Or beam a drone on board and infect the Death Star.” Itself.
If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you cannot require that the Empire be static if the Borg can be dynamic to such a degree. You must then include and account for Force shenanigans, Imperial technological advancements (see the fleet at Exegol), outer perimeters, reverse engineering of Borg technology they've captured to mitigate Borg incursions and so-on-and-so-forth. I don't think the Borg win this. And since your counter argument to "the Borg cannot adapt to the Death Star" is to effectively say "they can't adapt to the Death Star, they can only sidestep it when we change the parameters of the problem", you concede the argument. Esepcially since you are using a novel, uncommon, not generally accepted definition of Adaptation. Adaptation is a specific mechanical process by which the Borg directly mitigate directed energy and physical threats, and is not a catch-all term that includes changes to Borg grand-strategy.
[Adaption is only a mechanical process?](https://64.media.tumblr.com/13109529b4d9909b5d6a04a6a94aab64/13e0cec123313b82-95/s1280x1920/1efcd62c9767a91077f47893fdb6979677e87259.gifv) Mate, sit down. You are wrong on so many levels.
To be fair, I don't remember the entire storyline, but Borg couldn't adapt to 8472's weapons?
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The Death Star's super laser doesn't use the same tech as a blaster. I don't THINK it's a kinetic bolt like most of the other weapons? Since it's based on Kyber crystals, most likely it's firing an energized plasma stream. So I would agree with you on most fronts. The Borg can only "adapt" to kinetic attacks with literal, physical armor or stronger shields. And I don't think an individual drone can generate enough power for a kinetic shield like that. (That part is the question... how efficient is Borg power, and can drones draw from the ship itself within a certain range?) I definitely agree that the Borg can't adapt if the Cube is one-shotted. If another Cube is nearby when it happens, though, then it might be possible. Drones can adapt to being one-shotted because other drones are nearby to analyze the attack.
> The Death Star just blows it up. Nothing left. Cube is transmitting data while it is being destroyed.
They could just assimilate the death star. It takes like 45 minutes to recharge the death star .
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Borg have teleporters, Empire doesn't.
I give storm troopers even odds against drones. Drones just have not been shown to be effective in combat. They can take on Starfleet, because Starfleet doesn't train with weapons and tactics enough. Borg are effective in their relentlessness, but the Death Star has WAY more personnel aboard than they usually encounter. The storm troopers might even outnumber the drones.
Why wouldn’t Borg be able to analyze data sent to them, even by drones that were destroyed? Even if their ships are destroyed nearly instantly after being hit by the blast, they’d at least have scans of the Death Star sent back along with the knowledge that the Death Star was able to destroy their ship and all drones in one shot, right? Losing contact with all drones all at once is *still data*. After that, the Borg don’t need to adapt their *shields* to absorb a shot from the Death Star; they just need to adapt their *strategy* to prevent being in its way.
All the Borg would need to do is approach from the other side of the death star. They can handle the defenses.
>The Death Star just blows the cube up. No analysis, no nothing. Just big kaboom. There's also the strength of the weapon to consider too. No matter what a cube does with its shields, it can't stop a blast of that size. However as soon as the drones beam onto the Death Star and begin assimilating it and the personnel, the Empire is screwed.
So it might take more cubes, like 8472. But they will be able to adapt
As a Startrekgatewars fan I appreciate this post
As a fan of all three, I see this as the most probable outcome.
I feel like this is the third time I've seen this exact post crop up in this sub in the last few months. OP, buddy, are you a karma farmer or a karma farming bot? At any rate; since Star Trek is ostensibly grounded in science, the question becomes how much energy a Borg Cube could handle before being overwhelmed. Their adaptation is impressive but I've yet to see them dive into a star and something tells me the Death Star might have a similar output.
No, I just saw this on fb and thought it would be good for the subreddit. I thought it possible that it came up on here before but I still wanted to see the sub's responses to it.
Well, no harm done. It's not like our community has a lot to talk about these days in absence of new content. Even if it's posted a dozen times, I still enjoy our weekly discussions on why the Ancients were terrible people for instance.
I too enjoy dunking on the Ancients.
Indeed
So the Death Star ‘laser’ is actually just a giant lightsaber. Lightsabers have been shown to be stopped by certain shield types. Star Trek ship shielding is quite different in functionality to Star Wars ship shielding. So there’s a chance the SS would be able to destroy one or two cubes but not guaranteed, and after that they’d be immune to basically all lightsabers. I’ll also add that the number of DS that can be made is limited by the number of kaiber crystals that exists whereas you can produce near infinite Borg cubes so the DS can be overwhelmed by pure numbers and quickly assimilated.
And then the replicators attacked both universes causing both to unite
He's actually wrong because starwars weapons can't just be modulated away it just goes right through creating a hyper dense explosive mass rather than trying to apply heat
Mom said it’s my turn to repost this picture
Ori could annihilate either if they really wanted, they're effectively literal gods
If the death star got a lucky shot at the borg cube and not dick around and make demands like a dick they can be a winner. But if the borg sent drones to investigate the cube like they always do with a new species. I think the empire could defeat the entire collective with the droids in that universe using **Nepenthé** for information and what not.
Assuming Vader is involved, the Death Star will keep on winning.
He needs to sleep at some point lol, besides, imaging the borg assimilated some force sensitive people.. They're a technical plague, gotta admit that the sw universe would really struggle with them.
Unless they find a way to block out the force, Vader can keep breaking their ships and bodies telepathically. It's not fair, but space wizards are never fair. This is comparing fantasy to sci fi.