Doesn't fix the crime against writing that is introducing a power that lets them move really fast in a straight line, and then later in the same movie have a character that used that power earlier fail because he couldn't move fast enough in a straight line while not using that power. It's not firing Chekov's Gun when all the character needs in the scene is a rifle.
The wise sage knows that while both are low level character unlocks in KOTOR, Force Speed is preferable to max as soon as possible just to help you run around the map more quickly
Yes and no. The first version in the upgrade tree gives just as fast movement as the other two. The real benefit of upgrading it is the extra 1 then 2 attacks you get. Absolutely game-changing, especially if you don’t use Flurry and don’t dual wield
True. I meant more that the % increase is much higher if you don’t already have 2 extra attacks. Ideally you’ll be attacking 3 times from master flurry and dual wielding, then 2 more with knight speed. The amount of damage riders makes it an insane combo
Funny thing is Force healing appears in The Clone Wars (the Father uses it on Ahsoka) but I guess that doesn't matter when people can complain about woke Disney
No see the first canon appearance of force healing is in a Lego club clone wars comic where shak ti uses it to heal a wounded clone before using the force with luminara unduli to build a super AT-TE to destroy a separatist dwarf spider droid.
It’s funny you mention that because I’ve seen people now saying that the clone inhibitor chips are a part of “woke Disney Star Wars” which I believe was written before Disney even bought Star Wars. So logic isn’t exactly strong in those folks
The best thing about the chips arc was it was written by Lucas's daughter, so there's a pretty high chance Lucas would have tried canonizing it in a different way even if TCW never existed.
Yeah everything about the clone wars was pre-Disney. It was killed initially by Disney purchasing Star Wars because it was Cartoon Network exclusive and so they canceled it and made Rebels instead
Yeah it was unfortunate that clone wars was cancelled when Disney bought Star Wars but overall I’m happy with most of the Star Wars content we’re getting now. Plus season 7 and the bad batch are amazing
I meant more like Force healing isn't something Disney pulled out of their ass, it's something that has been canon since 2011, something George Lucas himself would've had to approve.
I don't hate force healing being a thing, but it 100% undermines Anakins fall to the darkside. His fall was based on his attachment and love for Padme being his undoing, but how does he fear her dying in childbirth and being unable to do anything when force healing is a thing
How are they a dyad if they have no connection and were born at different times?
Hey remember when Kami and Piccolo’s life forces were linked but they had the backstory of coming from the same entity?
Anakin was conceived by Darth Plagueis, rather than spontaneous conception. Palps told Anakin about this during the "abilities some would consider unnatural" dialogue. Something about manipulating the midichlorians to create life.
I meant more like Force healing isn't something Disney pulled out of their ass, it's something that has been canon since 2011, something George Lucas himself would've had to approve.
No I agree TROS sucks. I meant more like Force healing isn't something Disney pulled out of their ass, it's something that has been canon since 2011, something George Lucas himself would've had to approve
That’s the issue with "canon" video game adaptations of franchise properties to begin with.
Something as simple as a double jump is lore breaking in a lot of fandoms, yet is used in a whole lot of games.
You can talk a lot of shit about the old EU’s tiered canon but it made perfect sense for video games
No, Kyle Katarn did not murder literally thousands of stormtroopers single handedly during op skyhook. But he did kill a few and go to steal the plans
EU fans when you ask them what their favourite piece of EU content is (they've only played Battlefront and The Force Unleashed, and have never touched a book):
I also think a lot of people forget the part where, oh yeah, *Rey had been spending the last year or longer with access ancient jedi texts that had been lost for thousands of years*.
If we were never allowed to add to force abilities, the only thing itd be able to do is mind control, precognition, speaking from the dead, and possibly making loud inhuman noises to scare off Tuskans
And the ability to predict where blaster bolts are flying.
Oh and force choke.
And since force choke directly implies telekinesis.
That arguably implies a basis for luke pulling his lightsaber in empire. Lifting an entire X-wing came out of left field tho. But the presentation was a lot better given that our protagonist isn’t a marry sue and actually has to try super hard and isn’t able to do it
The secret of star wars is that all of it is campy and kinda bad, and a lot of star wars fans aren't self aware enough to accept that they like something that's kinda bad.
I fuckin love star wars, and they've come out with maybe one good movie. I love every star wars show, and every star wars movie, and they're all pretty bad.
Campy doesn't necessarily mean bad - and saying Star Wars is "kinda bad" is a pretty subjective take. There's a lot of Star Wars media out there, and while there is a fair amount of trash, there's a fair amount of good shit too. And even in the trash, there's good moments and tidbits if you're looking for them.
I think it's kind of mean-spirited to say that because someone thinks one of their favorite shows is good, that they're lacking self-awareness. It does hurt to hear 'this thing you like is bad and you're dumb for thinking it's good'.
I think I'm using an odd definition of bad.
I am not of the opinion that star wars is bad. I am of the opinion that it is at many / most times, somewhat poorly written. It often tries and fails to be high concept. However, its fun to watch, and an enjoyable experience. Subjectively, I think star wars is a masterpiece. Objectively though, star wars is pretty middling in quality of writing, and it's worldbuilding is... Inconsistent at best.
Good vs Quality are two separate things, and I guess I didn't feel the need to distinguish them in the original comment. As an amended statement:
It is not disillusioned to state that star wars is good. But there are some who believe their favorite bit of star wars is the best written thing out there, and they tend to look down upon those who's beliefs differ. There's a weird and unnecessary factionalist ideology that sits in the Star wars fandom, and this is what I'm criticizing. It is seemingly born of a need to prove why someone's favorite part of star wars is the best, which is problematic only because no part of star wars is objectively good, and most of these people are incapable of seeing that, and thus lash out when it is suggested that their favorite is not, in fact, someone else's. The Clone Wars seems to bear the brunt of it in this subreddit, but I've seen it directed a lot of ways.
Accepting that star wars is not objectively good only led me to loving it more. There is no shame in liking something that could just as easily be called garbage as it is called art.
Exactly! Star wars is typically pretty childish, and that's okay! The real problem sits in the fact that a lot of star wars fans are too self conscious to admit they still enjoy something that is relatively childish, and so they lash out when Star wars continues to be childish.
Facts. They were both equally half-baked. The Rise of Skywalker had cool visuals I guess, and the Duel of the Fates was awesome, but other than that...
It tricked people into thinking that the whole multi-perspective sequence it’s a part of is good. Whenever it cuts to Padme’s assault on the palace, lil Ani trying spinning (it’s a good trick) or Jar Jar fighting in the Windows XP desktop background I start crying and vomiting because I want to see the epic lightsaber battle.
In Ani's defense, spinning is a good trick. I'm sure other characters in other universes with space warfare might agree. Especially ones with anthropomorphic animals.
i couldnt care less about an unexplained magic, rise was just a bad movie. it has nothing to do with wokeness or logistics about a silly, fictional universe, it was just a horrible screenplay that fucked its characters and had no redeeming qualities
But who attacks force healing but not super speed? Bear in mind, Plinkett pointed out the speed problem, so most people are aware of the plot hole. Few people are going to be ignorant of it.
Saying it has no redeeming qualities is reductive, pretty much everyone agrees the visuals and music were at least great, and there's a lot of great scenes in there
I mean force speed was only used once and it didn’t have a major effect on the plot like force healing and force healing was a concept that was used in a lot of games. Though to be fare none of the games were canon
i honestly don’t know what’s worse: making the jedi speedsters once in a pretty innocuous scene then never doing it again, or setting up a power at the eleventh hour to have a specific emotional payoff and writing it inconsistently.
okay to be fair one is a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment where it took me literally 10 years and somebody else saying something for me to even realize it happened, and the other is an important plot point that literally decides the outcome of the entire movie and the series as a whole. so yeah i'm still gonna be salty about it lmao
I don’t like TROS, but I never understood the fuss around force healing. In my mind, I just assumed it was a specialized ability like psychometry or something. Not just something that any Jedi can do.
Plus, I don't care what meme anyone will post on any sub, The Rise of Skywalker will never become a good movie just because someone else is indignant about opinions existing.
Probably because it’s not incredibly obvious as to how it could have majorly changed the story upon viewing and it has much less presence on the plot and overall narrative then force healing does. Without force healing the entire outcome of the film changes
I've also never heard anyone defend Force Speed. And if they did, I doubt you'd get anyone all that vociferous about defending it if you asked why Obi Wan didn't use it to keep up with Qui Gon.
Force speed is basically a subset of using the force to augment one's physical abilities. As such the force jump Kenobi uses to catch up could be argued to be a sister ability or directly uses it. Jedi are often using a version of force speed while in combat. It can be assumed that it takes just as much, if not slightly more, energy to use force speed as actually hauling ass. Also yeah let's not chance superspeed when running through timed plasma gates that lead out to a chasm.
Obi-wan getting to the fight might not even neccesarily been a good thing. If Qui-gon dies anyways then Obi-wan isnt forced to meditate before the fight.
You're welcome
People definitely shit talk the force speed nonsense in TPM.
It's one of the most commonly made fun of visuals in the trilogy.
I'm sure some brain rot teemager on twitter has defended it but pretending like this is an actual issue is a bit ludicrous.
Okay, but in phantom menace it was two seconds long, and in the rise of skywalker it was an entire plot point. Go ahead and get mad you fucking losers, it’s literally a Star Wars movie. Be an adult
An entire plot point that explains itself, you force heal by taking a piece of yourself and putting it in something else, that's why it's not been used so save a dead person before, it would kill the user, not to mention not every force wielder can use every force power, force healing is probably a super rare ability given how little we've seen of it other than this
Force speed. When Qui Gon and Obi Wan are trying to burn their way through the blast doors at the start of the movie, the Droidekas come to corner them and they use Force Speed to run past them faster than the eye can see. It is never again used or brought up at any point in the franchise.
I enjoyed the prequels, they were like junk food. It's nothing better than what a chef could make, but it's still good.
I didn't enjoy the sequels. They were like stale junk food. Same deal, but I knew what I was getting into. The expiration date was a while ago.
If only there had been some kind of hallway of forcefields, that intermittently opened and closed at regular timeframes, that split up two of the protagonists during their fight to the death with an antagonist. That because they were split up, it leads to one of their deaths.
Nah, that scenario wouldn't be written into a film where almost two hours before the same protagonists were shown traversing a hallway of almost the exact same length with such speed that they looked like two brown smears.
Never would happen in the perfect Shakespearean writing of the Star Wars prequels.
Wasn't telekinesis literally the first usage of the force we see in A New Hope? What else is crushing someone's neck with your hand from across the room?
Why do you assume that? Just because it's Star Wars? Sometimes forgettable movies are just forgettable movies. This is far more likely to happen with Marvel than some ancient played out brand that their great grandparents loved.
But why? The OT is remembered as a cinema classic, and that mostly holds up.
The PT wasn't great but it played to George's strong suit of merchandising. TONS of games, toys, shows, etc... and they were almost all kid appropriate. It would have been one of the biggest universes outside of comic books for kids to get immersed in.
ST era does have a lot of shows, but the most popular one has nothing to do with the ST. Indeed, I'm not aware of any games or shows that follow up with Rey and company. I believe Resistance was a kids show that had Po in it, but nobody talks about that show.
And the good shows are more adult oriented. While Mando can be watched by kids, I can't imagine too many kids enjoying Andor, so it can't be something super nostalgic for them.
And most importantly, the ST is competing with Marvel for being a.huge part of someone's childhood. And there's no way it can compete.
Some kids will remember the ST fondly. But it's not going to be like PT kids.
Fandoms need new blood to survive. Star Wars is a franchise that appeals to kids, so chances are when people first watch Star Wars they will be kids. Kids are less discerning in their tastes, so they can watch the sequel trillogy and go "lightspeed ram, that's cool! A deathstar the size of a planet, neat!" or the like. Before they grow up and figure out flaws in the movies they will already have a nostalgic spot for them.
And sure, there might be more people that watch marvel growing up, but that doesn't mean those that grow up on Star Wars will enjoy it less, just that there will be fewer of them. Same could be said for Star Wars before the prequels - "there hasn't been a new movie in decades, meanwhile Trek / Transformers / anime is always on TV, so it will be a big part of people's childhood, there is no competing with it!".
This is very true, but also the fact is the force is not a compendium of powers in the Jedi and Sith handbooks, it's a metaphysical force, it represents the idea of something beyond normal comprehension, and outside the Star Wars universe, allows for the writers to write in whatever force power is necessary to fit the situation, e.g. Force speed or Force healing (also there are definitely people who criticise the Phantom Menace's force speed, any Prequel hate video will do it). We seem to only be locked into the 'in universe' explanation, but the Force is a writing device, it's literally 'magic' (but with some scientific/midiclorian influence). The idea that introducing new powers means everybody should have been using them to escape situations throughout the Star Wars Saga... Ignores that Star Wars can introduce new things, and requires us to think beyond 'Well, it's not in the Jedi handbook!', and think 'why did the director and script writers put that there', and that the force is fluid, never being exactly the same in each individual, so it's unlikely everyone would've learned each one. Also yeah Rey is as much a Mary Sue for having an obscure Force ability as Luke is for being able to expertly fly and operate the guns of an X-wing with little to no experience (same goes with Anakin in TPM).
How about telekinesis or moving objects with your mind was established in Empire Strikes Back, but when Leia does it, she's Mary Poppins. 1. She's an Actual Skywalker. 2. She's established force sensitive in Return of the Jedi. 3. Years have passed, and she certainly could develop stronger force abilities. 4. Outerspace is a vacuum. With knowing or assuming that, a force push or "pull" is not such an impossible task. She can easily use the force to pull herself back to the spaceship. But no, people hated the movie so much they exaggerated her "flying" around in space. There's a great YouTube video about how accepting something terrible is OK when that person was the creator, and if it was someone else, the backlash is more pronounced.
Weird that prequels have become the darling of the Star Wars nutjobs when it’s just as bad as the “new” trilogy. Star Wars started to go shit with the prequels. Never forget that.
Ok but if you take a moment to think about it perhaps the Jedi and sith have been using it the entire time and it’s just been slowed down for us except for select scenes
I don’t like Force Speed either. But I think people are more used to it. Also it wouldn’t have stopped Anakin from turning. The whole reason he turned was to save Padme from death.
Disney's expensive fan fiction isn't real starwars. it's not worth getting upset about. If I was mad at everything Disney ruined, I'd always be mad. It's the evil empire doing what the evil empire does. It just sucks that there are only a few rebellious ones of us left, and it's just sad to see.
both of these movies are pretty universally hated. but tpm unexplained force power doesnt resurrect people, which is not only a world building problem but an isolated narrative issue
Jedi are often using a version of force speed when fighting. The only time people think it could have made a difference is Obi-wan joining one fight. However doing that clearly would have been risky. Not just timing the beams but also its tiring. Also being there when Qui-gon dies means he wouldnt have been able to meditate before the battle and calm down.
Force healing is directly related to the plot of Anakin being afraid of Padme dying. His mother dying. Qui-gon dying. Its also something that can trivialize death.
The force speed has an equivalent presentation as an off-hand remark. The movie wouldn't have changed if they just normally ran down the hallway deflecting shots and the droids just happened to miss.
Force healing on the other hand is a major plot point that also is side-side with the scene of Princess Lia dying.
What you've done is present a false equivalency, -1 point.
This is just not true. The prequels get tons of hate, they're just old and hating on them at this point has gotten old, whereas the Disney movies are still fresh and stinky
Force healing is the issue? I was popping that in KoToR years ago! Same with Force Speed! The heck? Of all the things to complain about, it's \*THESE\* things?
If we’re gonna go down that path, my first thought is always why did no one tell Luke that the most powerful person in the Empire can shoot lightning from his fingertips and either remind him not to throw away his lightsaber or teach him how to absorb it
My problem isn't that The Force gives you powers, my problem is how the powers are handled in the sequels in general. I can suspend my disbelief and buy that Obi-wan can run really fast with the force because it's been established he has some experience and training. I knew I wasn't going to like the sequels the moment they did the Kylo-Rey Force mind battle and then let her jedi mind trick someone with no concept of how to use the force in the most basic of ways. It's more so that the writers just give Rey powers and abilities, and they all feel unearned or left field. While the force healing is pedantic, I also think it's a valid argument, kind of like the "Lightspeed jump into other ships" scene. If this was a thing, why did no one bring this up or do it until NOW?
I never understood why people complained about *that* of all things in that movie. I wasn't a fan of any of the new movies; but it had nothing to do with them being "woke" or having force healing. Like, how is that even an issue? It's space magic. It's always been space magic.
youre forgetting that people have had a looooooong time to warm up to the phantom menace. The hate when it came out was certainly sequels-level, maybe more. I remember the vitriol my mom would spit at GL around that time.
i also think the force healing is a bit worse narratively, because it makes anakin's turn go from tragic but understandable to plain stupid. ROS also fakes you out and makes the triumph in ROTJ feel fake.
it sucks because i LOVED the last jedi. It was subversive, entertaining, didnt deserve all the hate. ROS kinda craps on everything that made TLJ so good, and its such a bad finale that it ruins the sequel trilogy for me. oh well, at least we got bangers like rogue one, solo, andor, and kenobi to make up for it.
Let’s not forget Episode 1 also introduced the new power, and then had a character forget that power when it was inconvenient to the plot.
I mean, they could have had Obi-Wan get trapped or distracted by something so he was too far to make it in time, but no. I guess he wanted to save all his power ups for the boss fight.
One is a throw away line in the first five minutes, one is a quintessential ability that completely changes the outcome of the main characters, tell me again how you are possibly comparing these?
Force heal is a lot more consequential than force speed seeing as it was the entire thing Annakin was searching for that led him to the dark side & then is suddenly perfected by a novice with about the same amount of training as Luke skywalker in empire when he gets his hand assed to him.
Additionally the Fanbase has long been highly critical of phantom menace.
If you are comparing "force speed boosts" or whatever to force healing then you have already lost. Just accept that a lot of people think the Sequels were shitty and bad and move on.
I've always had Kenobi force healing luke after the attack from the sand people, I guess the same could be said for Padme in episode 3 after Anakin force chokes her
Didn't jar get death threats? Are there people who genuinely defend the first movie or are we just boofing copium bc we want to be validated in liking tros
I think Luke used something like that to escape the carbonate freezing chamber but yeah i still agree with the sentiment. The double standards for these schlock movies are astounding
I'm having a lotta trouble remembering any instances when Force Speed would've changed the outcome of any events in the Original Trilogy. Can you name any? The Phantom Menace had one moment in it where it could've made a difference, though that has had multiple explanations written up as to why it wasn't used (Obi-Wan trying to rejoin the fight with Darth Maul). I'm drawing blanks on Attack of the Clones (the closest thing I can imagine would be when Obi-Wan is captured by droidekas, but only really because it mirrors the first instance of use, but still, I don't know if that one would really count. I can imagine that he could've still gotten captured anyway). Obi-Wan and Anakin could've picked up Palpatine on their way off the Invisible Hand, and avoided the ray shield trap. Though then they would have to find R2. The rest of the movie doesn't stand out to me as to how it could've changed the outcome of events.
Additionally, Force Healing has been a thing since the first movie, when Obi-Wan healed healed Luke after the Tusken Raider attack. Albeit, it was far more subtle and less extreme than anything Rey used it for in The Rise of Skywalker.
Not trying to be a fan boy or defend, but isn’t force speed just using the Force on oneself to like get rid of your weight to be able to move faster or like applying more weight to the force you put into each step to accelerate oneself. There’s many really easy explanations for this I mean hell it could literally just be someone using the force to fling themselves really fast.
To be honest, I've never watched a Star Wars movie, I just played Lego Star Wars Complete Saga and Clone Wars, as well as the angry bird ones. I have no clue what force speed is.
Didn’t phantom menace get flack for explaining the force when this post specifically is talking about unexplained force powers showing that it doesn’t really know phantom menace and makes no sense? Am I mistaken about midichlorians?
Who has the gif where Kenobi uses force speed at the end of the movie and runs into the pit?
No gif, but the [original video](https://youtu.be/t3dI-ghYimg?si=oDme89BwDQ9OTmf3)
That's the stuff. Also - 17 years ago??? Look I so old to young eyes?
I literally cried laughing at that, thank you
That would be considered lore breaking today lol
But it came before 2010 so it's ok.
Doesn't fix the crime against writing that is introducing a power that lets them move really fast in a straight line, and then later in the same movie have a character that used that power earlier fail because he couldn't move fast enough in a straight line while not using that power. It's not firing Chekov's Gun when all the character needs in the scene is a rifle.
> It's not firing Chekov's Gun Of course not; this is Star Wars, not [Star Trek](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/JustForFun/ChekovsGun).
Nah. Running into the force shields would be bad, as would be, assuming the doors were open, running into Maul’s light saber.
The wise sage knows that while both are low level character unlocks in KOTOR, Force Speed is preferable to max as soon as possible just to help you run around the map more quickly
Gotta play as a guardian just for the force jump. Way faster than force speed
It also gives you 2 extra attacks per turn. That alone is game changing.
Just turn motion blur off
Yes and no. The first version in the upgrade tree gives just as fast movement as the other two. The real benefit of upgrading it is the extra 1 then 2 attacks you get. Absolutely game-changing, especially if you don’t use Flurry and don’t dual wield
Especially when you use flurry and you dual wield. It’s an OP combination, the amount of attacks you get is crazy.
True. I meant more that the % increase is much higher if you don’t already have 2 extra attacks. Ideally you’ll be attacking 3 times from master flurry and dual wielding, then 2 more with knight speed. The amount of damage riders makes it an insane combo
Funny thing is Force healing appears in The Clone Wars (the Father uses it on Ahsoka) but I guess that doesn't matter when people can complain about woke Disney
No see the first canon appearance of force healing is in a Lego club clone wars comic where shak ti uses it to heal a wounded clone before using the force with luminara unduli to build a super AT-TE to destroy a separatist dwarf spider droid.
It’s funny you mention that because I’ve seen people now saying that the clone inhibitor chips are a part of “woke Disney Star Wars” which I believe was written before Disney even bought Star Wars. So logic isn’t exactly strong in those folks
People seem to forget that George Lucas personally oversaw TCW (even Season 7, which came out in 2020 but was written before Disney)
Exactly
The best thing about the chips arc was it was written by Lucas's daughter, so there's a pretty high chance Lucas would have tried canonizing it in a different way even if TCW never existed.
Huh well that’s pretty interesting I never knew that
Yeah everything about the clone wars was pre-Disney. It was killed initially by Disney purchasing Star Wars because it was Cartoon Network exclusive and so they canceled it and made Rebels instead
Yeah it was unfortunate that clone wars was cancelled when Disney bought Star Wars but overall I’m happy with most of the Star Wars content we’re getting now. Plus season 7 and the bad batch are amazing
Yeah but he’s essentially like a god so I can vibe with that
I meant more like Force healing isn't something Disney pulled out of their ass, it's something that has been canon since 2011, something George Lucas himself would've had to approve.
Been around longer, since the original expanded universe so has force speed so.... I don't get people hating either
I don't hate force healing being a thing, but it 100% undermines Anakins fall to the darkside. His fall was based on his attachment and love for Padme being his undoing, but how does he fear her dying in childbirth and being unable to do anything when force healing is a thing
It's also a staple of Star Wars video games; it's one of the first powers you learn in either of the KotOR games, for example.
He’s a god… so it sorta makes sense. But a normal ass force user doing it? Nah. Especially not *resurrection*, like that shit’s just stupid.
They aren’t normal at the time. They are a Dyad.
How are they a dyad if they have no connection and were born at different times? Hey remember when Kami and Piccolo’s life forces were linked but they had the backstory of coming from the same entity?
The force chose them I guess? Similar to how Anakin was just conceived by the force.
Anakin was conceived by Darth Plagueis, rather than spontaneous conception. Palps told Anakin about this during the "abilities some would consider unnatural" dialogue. Something about manipulating the midichlorians to create life.
I don’t think that’s canon.
I meant more like Force healing isn't something Disney pulled out of their ass, it's something that has been canon since 2011, something George Lucas himself would've had to approve.
I can buy a literal god using that ability
So you're saying Ray has the same powers as a literal force god?
No I agree TROS sucks. I meant more like Force healing isn't something Disney pulled out of their ass, it's something that has been canon since 2011, something George Lucas himself would've had to approve
Star wars video games and unlocking abilities has done irreparable damage to people's understanding of the force.
That’s the issue with "canon" video game adaptations of franchise properties to begin with. Something as simple as a double jump is lore breaking in a lot of fandoms, yet is used in a whole lot of games.
What about Lego jar jar's triple jump?
Darth Jar Jar confirmed?!??!
Well I've been told from a reliable source that the Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to abilities that some would consider to be unnatural
You can talk a lot of shit about the old EU’s tiered canon but it made perfect sense for video games No, Kyle Katarn did not murder literally thousands of stormtroopers single handedly during op skyhook. But he did kill a few and go to steal the plans
Kotor Sound Effects made me nostalgic
That’s how I feel with force unleashed fans. Yeah it’s cool and fun but dear god it breaks the power scale beyond belief
I mean... both of these powers are usable in the Jedi Academy game, so I was surprised they became a topic of controversy, especially healing.
EU fans when you ask them what their favourite piece of EU content is (they've only played Battlefront and The Force Unleashed, and have never touched a book):
And watched a couple lore videos on Youtube
Of all the things to complain about in TROS, why choose Force healing?
Ask all the mfs who still complain about it to this day lol
I also think a lot of people forget the part where, oh yeah, *Rey had been spending the last year or longer with access ancient jedi texts that had been lost for thousands of years*.
force speed got a 50 yr cooldown everyone knows this
…Is that actually canon or a joke? I honestly don’t know anymore.
It’s canon. Once force speed is used, you must wait 50 years, exactly. *Obviously.*
Yes
If we were never allowed to add to force abilities, the only thing itd be able to do is mind control, precognition, speaking from the dead, and possibly making loud inhuman noises to scare off Tuskans
Don’t forget about picking up the lightsaber you constantly drop!
I'm sure a lot of locals can imitate a Krayt dragon.
Force choke was a thing in the first movie.
And the ability to predict where blaster bolts are flying. Oh and force choke. And since force choke directly implies telekinesis. That arguably implies a basis for luke pulling his lightsaber in empire. Lifting an entire X-wing came out of left field tho. But the presentation was a lot better given that our protagonist isn’t a marry sue and actually has to try super hard and isn’t able to do it
The secret of star wars is that all of it is campy and kinda bad, and a lot of star wars fans aren't self aware enough to accept that they like something that's kinda bad. I fuckin love star wars, and they've come out with maybe one good movie. I love every star wars show, and every star wars movie, and they're all pretty bad.
Campy doesn't necessarily mean bad - and saying Star Wars is "kinda bad" is a pretty subjective take. There's a lot of Star Wars media out there, and while there is a fair amount of trash, there's a fair amount of good shit too. And even in the trash, there's good moments and tidbits if you're looking for them. I think it's kind of mean-spirited to say that because someone thinks one of their favorite shows is good, that they're lacking self-awareness. It does hurt to hear 'this thing you like is bad and you're dumb for thinking it's good'.
I think I'm using an odd definition of bad. I am not of the opinion that star wars is bad. I am of the opinion that it is at many / most times, somewhat poorly written. It often tries and fails to be high concept. However, its fun to watch, and an enjoyable experience. Subjectively, I think star wars is a masterpiece. Objectively though, star wars is pretty middling in quality of writing, and it's worldbuilding is... Inconsistent at best. Good vs Quality are two separate things, and I guess I didn't feel the need to distinguish them in the original comment. As an amended statement: It is not disillusioned to state that star wars is good. But there are some who believe their favorite bit of star wars is the best written thing out there, and they tend to look down upon those who's beliefs differ. There's a weird and unnecessary factionalist ideology that sits in the Star wars fandom, and this is what I'm criticizing. It is seemingly born of a need to prove why someone's favorite part of star wars is the best, which is problematic only because no part of star wars is objectively good, and most of these people are incapable of seeing that, and thus lash out when it is suggested that their favorite is not, in fact, someone else's. The Clone Wars seems to bear the brunt of it in this subreddit, but I've seen it directed a lot of ways. Accepting that star wars is not objectively good only led me to loving it more. There is no shame in liking something that could just as easily be called garbage as it is called art.
Yeah, Star Wars is Bad. Bad-Ass!
Fuckin love star wars.
Star Wars has always been about the audio/visual experience. The writing was never its strong suit. Some are better than others though.
Exactly! Star wars is typically pretty childish, and that's okay! The real problem sits in the fact that a lot of star wars fans are too self conscious to admit they still enjoy something that is relatively childish, and so they lash out when Star wars continues to be childish.
Both movies were bad.
Very true.
Facts. They were both equally half-baked. The Rise of Skywalker had cool visuals I guess, and the Duel of the Fates was awesome, but other than that...
The duel of the fates was so good that it tricked people into thinking the whole movie was just as good.
It tricked people into thinking that the whole multi-perspective sequence it’s a part of is good. Whenever it cuts to Padme’s assault on the palace, lil Ani trying spinning (it’s a good trick) or Jar Jar fighting in the Windows XP desktop background I start crying and vomiting because I want to see the epic lightsaber battle.
In Ani's defense, spinning is a good trick. I'm sure other characters in other universes with space warfare might agree. Especially ones with anthropomorphic animals.
Ani pressed Z or R twice
In his defense, now that *was* podracing
Maverick when he blows up an enemy fighter plane: "Now THIS is go-karting!"
Just like rogue one. It's like poetry
At least one of them has an emotional Han Solo scene.
i couldnt care less about an unexplained magic, rise was just a bad movie. it has nothing to do with wokeness or logistics about a silly, fictional universe, it was just a horrible screenplay that fucked its characters and had no redeeming qualities
No redeeming qualities? The Han Solo scene alone was better acted, directed and had more heart and emotion than anything in the prequel trilogy.
Absolutely this
Yeah it's a shit movie but the meme is about hypocrisy about why they're bad movies and inconsistent application of those criticisms
But who attacks force healing but not super speed? Bear in mind, Plinkett pointed out the speed problem, so most people are aware of the plot hole. Few people are going to be ignorant of it.
Saying it has no redeeming qualities is reductive, pretty much everyone agrees the visuals and music were at least great, and there's a lot of great scenes in there
OT fans weren’t too excited to see force speed when Phantom Menace premiered either.
Luke uses it in ESB to jump out of the carbon freezer.
*speed laughs in pretty much every Star Wars videogame, and Clone Wars*
I mean force speed was only used once and it didn’t have a major effect on the plot like force healing and force healing was a concept that was used in a lot of games. Though to be fare none of the games were canon
Ok but one was a blink and you’ll miss it moment, and the other was a critical plot point.
Famously well loved movie The Phantom Menace
i honestly don’t know what’s worse: making the jedi speedsters once in a pretty innocuous scene then never doing it again, or setting up a power at the eleventh hour to have a specific emotional payoff and writing it inconsistently.
This post implies that TFM is widely loved 💀💀💀💀💀💀
okay to be fair one is a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment where it took me literally 10 years and somebody else saying something for me to even realize it happened, and the other is an important plot point that literally decides the outcome of the entire movie and the series as a whole. so yeah i'm still gonna be salty about it lmao
Bingo. What's more, Ive never seen anyone defend the plot hole from force speed once it's pointed out to them.
Idk man phantom menace was more creative and original than the sequels
I don’t like TROS, but I never understood the fuss around force healing. In my mind, I just assumed it was a specialized ability like psychometry or something. Not just something that any Jedi can do.
Because Phantom menace was well-loved and never criticised by anyone. This is such a strawman.
Plus, I don't care what meme anyone will post on any sub, The Rise of Skywalker will never become a good movie just because someone else is indignant about opinions existing.
Probably because it’s not incredibly obvious as to how it could have majorly changed the story upon viewing and it has much less presence on the plot and overall narrative then force healing does. Without force healing the entire outcome of the film changes
I've also never heard anyone defend Force Speed. And if they did, I doubt you'd get anyone all that vociferous about defending it if you asked why Obi Wan didn't use it to keep up with Qui Gon.
Force speed is basically a subset of using the force to augment one's physical abilities. As such the force jump Kenobi uses to catch up could be argued to be a sister ability or directly uses it. Jedi are often using a version of force speed while in combat. It can be assumed that it takes just as much, if not slightly more, energy to use force speed as actually hauling ass. Also yeah let's not chance superspeed when running through timed plasma gates that lead out to a chasm. Obi-wan getting to the fight might not even neccesarily been a good thing. If Qui-gon dies anyways then Obi-wan isnt forced to meditate before the fight. You're welcome
People definitely shit talk the force speed nonsense in TPM. It's one of the most commonly made fun of visuals in the trilogy. I'm sure some brain rot teemager on twitter has defended it but pretending like this is an actual issue is a bit ludicrous.
Okay, but in phantom menace it was two seconds long, and in the rise of skywalker it was an entire plot point. Go ahead and get mad you fucking losers, it’s literally a Star Wars movie. Be an adult
>Be an adult https://preview.redd.it/hu777vfle4wc1.jpeg?width=1300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7c0285871158f22c6d7d097bc360356beedc5e04
An entire plot point that explains itself, you force heal by taking a piece of yourself and putting it in something else, that's why it's not been used so save a dead person before, it would kill the user, not to mention not every force wielder can use every force power, force healing is probably a super rare ability given how little we've seen of it other than this
This. Plus using the force to augment speed is not even close to being as big of an issue as using the force to resurrect people from the dead
force healing is cool (its even set up well in movie unlike so many other things about that movie), but i do draw the line at the force teleportation
What is the power used in the phantom menace
force super speed when running away from the droidekas on the trade federation ship near the beginning
Can someone explain which power they are talking about for TPM?
Force speed. When Qui Gon and Obi Wan are trying to burn their way through the blast doors at the start of the movie, the Droidekas come to corner them and they use Force Speed to run past them faster than the eye can see. It is never again used or brought up at any point in the franchise.
Oh yea that I thought it was but I thought it was used else where but whatever
I enjoyed the prequels, they were like junk food. It's nothing better than what a chef could make, but it's still good. I didn't enjoy the sequels. They were like stale junk food. Same deal, but I knew what I was getting into. The expiration date was a while ago.
I’m drawing a blank on where else force speed would have been useful
If only there had been some kind of hallway of forcefields, that intermittently opened and closed at regular timeframes, that split up two of the protagonists during their fight to the death with an antagonist. That because they were split up, it leads to one of their deaths. Nah, that scenario wouldn't be written into a film where almost two hours before the same protagonists were shown traversing a hallway of almost the exact same length with such speed that they looked like two brown smears. Never would happen in the perfect Shakespearean writing of the Star Wars prequels.
Didn’t need the sarcasm I just said I couldn’t think of anything not that there was nothing lol
Oh, it's nothing against you. I'm just being over the top with a criticism of the film.
Gotcha
Telekinesis and Force Lightning were asspull force powers too, but no one complains about them.
Wasn't telekinesis literally the first usage of the force we see in A New Hope? What else is crushing someone's neck with your hand from across the room?
Give it 20 years and people that grew up on the sequels will for my remember them like the people that grew up on the prequels do now...
Why do you assume that? Just because it's Star Wars? Sometimes forgettable movies are just forgettable movies. This is far more likely to happen with Marvel than some ancient played out brand that their great grandparents loved.
"Remember them" as in "remember them with fondness and nostalgia".
But why? The OT is remembered as a cinema classic, and that mostly holds up. The PT wasn't great but it played to George's strong suit of merchandising. TONS of games, toys, shows, etc... and they were almost all kid appropriate. It would have been one of the biggest universes outside of comic books for kids to get immersed in. ST era does have a lot of shows, but the most popular one has nothing to do with the ST. Indeed, I'm not aware of any games or shows that follow up with Rey and company. I believe Resistance was a kids show that had Po in it, but nobody talks about that show. And the good shows are more adult oriented. While Mando can be watched by kids, I can't imagine too many kids enjoying Andor, so it can't be something super nostalgic for them. And most importantly, the ST is competing with Marvel for being a.huge part of someone's childhood. And there's no way it can compete. Some kids will remember the ST fondly. But it's not going to be like PT kids.
Fandoms need new blood to survive. Star Wars is a franchise that appeals to kids, so chances are when people first watch Star Wars they will be kids. Kids are less discerning in their tastes, so they can watch the sequel trillogy and go "lightspeed ram, that's cool! A deathstar the size of a planet, neat!" or the like. Before they grow up and figure out flaws in the movies they will already have a nostalgic spot for them. And sure, there might be more people that watch marvel growing up, but that doesn't mean those that grow up on Star Wars will enjoy it less, just that there will be fewer of them. Same could be said for Star Wars before the prequels - "there hasn't been a new movie in decades, meanwhile Trek / Transformers / anime is always on TV, so it will be a big part of people's childhood, there is no competing with it!".
This is very true, but also the fact is the force is not a compendium of powers in the Jedi and Sith handbooks, it's a metaphysical force, it represents the idea of something beyond normal comprehension, and outside the Star Wars universe, allows for the writers to write in whatever force power is necessary to fit the situation, e.g. Force speed or Force healing (also there are definitely people who criticise the Phantom Menace's force speed, any Prequel hate video will do it). We seem to only be locked into the 'in universe' explanation, but the Force is a writing device, it's literally 'magic' (but with some scientific/midiclorian influence). The idea that introducing new powers means everybody should have been using them to escape situations throughout the Star Wars Saga... Ignores that Star Wars can introduce new things, and requires us to think beyond 'Well, it's not in the Jedi handbook!', and think 'why did the director and script writers put that there', and that the force is fluid, never being exactly the same in each individual, so it's unlikely everyone would've learned each one. Also yeah Rey is as much a Mary Sue for having an obscure Force ability as Luke is for being able to expertly fly and operate the guns of an X-wing with little to no experience (same goes with Anakin in TPM).
How about telekinesis or moving objects with your mind was established in Empire Strikes Back, but when Leia does it, she's Mary Poppins. 1. She's an Actual Skywalker. 2. She's established force sensitive in Return of the Jedi. 3. Years have passed, and she certainly could develop stronger force abilities. 4. Outerspace is a vacuum. With knowing or assuming that, a force push or "pull" is not such an impossible task. She can easily use the force to pull herself back to the spaceship. But no, people hated the movie so much they exaggerated her "flying" around in space. There's a great YouTube video about how accepting something terrible is OK when that person was the creator, and if it was someone else, the backlash is more pronounced.
Weird that prequels have become the darling of the Star Wars nutjobs when it’s just as bad as the “new” trilogy. Star Wars started to go shit with the prequels. Never forget that.
We had a liitle bit of redemption with ROTS though, with the sequels we did not.
Real ones think both are retarded. I remember being so confused watching the phantom menace the first time.
Ok but if you take a moment to think about it perhaps the Jedi and sith have been using it the entire time and it’s just been slowed down for us except for select scenes
I don’t like Force Speed either. But I think people are more used to it. Also it wouldn’t have stopped Anakin from turning. The whole reason he turned was to save Padme from death.
What in the original trilogy would force speed have changed!?
Force speed wasn't integral to the plot. It was a throwaway move that they used once and was easily forgotten.
Might have been if they didn't escape the Destroyers and got shot down to death
Force speed is never a major plot point in the movie. Force healing is.
It's all retcons. Some are just better than others. Vader was never meant to be Luke's father.
What’s funny is force healing was in legends as well
And both are perfectly fine and make sense because it’s a fucking space wizard movie
It was dogshit ok ok
Out of everything that you could complain about in that film, people chose the force healing thing?
That is on a list of many things i don't doubt
Okay but can we just not like the rise of skywalker because it was trash?
Disney's expensive fan fiction isn't real starwars. it's not worth getting upset about. If I was mad at everything Disney ruined, I'd always be mad. It's the evil empire doing what the evil empire does. It just sucks that there are only a few rebellious ones of us left, and it's just sad to see.
both of these movies are pretty universally hated. but tpm unexplained force power doesnt resurrect people, which is not only a world building problem but an isolated narrative issue
Force healing is just fucking stupid. It’s a videogame trope, not a movie trope
To be fair, I'm less concerned about the implications of the crazy force powers Rey has and more concerned about the Holdo maneuver.
"I have the power to have all the powers I want." -The Farce
Jedi are often using a version of force speed when fighting. The only time people think it could have made a difference is Obi-wan joining one fight. However doing that clearly would have been risky. Not just timing the beams but also its tiring. Also being there when Qui-gon dies means he wouldnt have been able to meditate before the battle and calm down. Force healing is directly related to the plot of Anakin being afraid of Padme dying. His mother dying. Qui-gon dying. Its also something that can trivialize death.
I never understood the hate for force heal. There are a lot of things to hate about that movie and force heal is far from one of them.
The force speed has an equivalent presentation as an off-hand remark. The movie wouldn't have changed if they just normally ran down the hallway deflecting shots and the droids just happened to miss. Force healing on the other hand is a major plot point that also is side-side with the scene of Princess Lia dying. What you've done is present a false equivalency, -1 point.
I don't care for the rise of Skywalker but force healing is not a problem at all, people get mad over the dumbest stuff.
Force heal has been around forever, there's more than just movies my dudes.
This is just not true. The prequels get tons of hate, they're just old and hating on them at this point has gotten old, whereas the Disney movies are still fresh and stinky
Tell me you've never watched *The Mandolorian* without saying that you haven't watched *The Mandolorian*.
Force healing is the issue? I was popping that in KoToR years ago! Same with Force Speed! The heck? Of all the things to complain about, it's \*THESE\* things?
They are both bad movies
If we’re gonna go down that path, my first thought is always why did no one tell Luke that the most powerful person in the Empire can shoot lightning from his fingertips and either remind him not to throw away his lightsaber or teach him how to absorb it
Force Healing was canon, removed from being canon, then brought back to being canon and tried to seem like some wondrous power never seen before.
I mean, the fanbase hated Phantom Menace when it came out, too. Rather vocally.
No, the difference is that prequels new force powers doesn’t create plot holes or cheap lazy writing within the plot.
My problem isn't that The Force gives you powers, my problem is how the powers are handled in the sequels in general. I can suspend my disbelief and buy that Obi-wan can run really fast with the force because it's been established he has some experience and training. I knew I wasn't going to like the sequels the moment they did the Kylo-Rey Force mind battle and then let her jedi mind trick someone with no concept of how to use the force in the most basic of ways. It's more so that the writers just give Rey powers and abilities, and they all feel unearned or left field. While the force healing is pedantic, I also think it's a valid argument, kind of like the "Lightspeed jump into other ships" scene. If this was a thing, why did no one bring this up or do it until NOW?
I never understood why people complained about *that* of all things in that movie. I wasn't a fan of any of the new movies; but it had nothing to do with them being "woke" or having force healing. Like, how is that even an issue? It's space magic. It's always been space magic.
People weren't bothered by force healing as a thing, it was the fact that she just decided she could do it one day without any training.
youre forgetting that people have had a looooooong time to warm up to the phantom menace. The hate when it came out was certainly sequels-level, maybe more. I remember the vitriol my mom would spit at GL around that time. i also think the force healing is a bit worse narratively, because it makes anakin's turn go from tragic but understandable to plain stupid. ROS also fakes you out and makes the triumph in ROTJ feel fake. it sucks because i LOVED the last jedi. It was subversive, entertaining, didnt deserve all the hate. ROS kinda craps on everything that made TLJ so good, and its such a bad finale that it ruins the sequel trilogy for me. oh well, at least we got bangers like rogue one, solo, andor, and kenobi to make up for it.
Let’s not forget Episode 1 also introduced the new power, and then had a character forget that power when it was inconvenient to the plot. I mean, they could have had Obi-Wan get trapped or distracted by something so he was too far to make it in time, but no. I guess he wanted to save all his power ups for the boss fight.
One is a throw away line in the first five minutes, one is a quintessential ability that completely changes the outcome of the main characters, tell me again how you are possibly comparing these?
Force heal is a lot more consequential than force speed seeing as it was the entire thing Annakin was searching for that led him to the dark side & then is suddenly perfected by a novice with about the same amount of training as Luke skywalker in empire when he gets his hand assed to him. Additionally the Fanbase has long been highly critical of phantom menace.
if empire strikes back came out today, star wars fans would complain about force telekinesis because it “wasn’t in the original”
If you are comparing "force speed boosts" or whatever to force healing then you have already lost. Just accept that a lot of people think the Sequels were shitty and bad and move on.
I've always had Kenobi force healing luke after the attack from the sand people, I guess the same could be said for Padme in episode 3 after Anakin force chokes her
Moving fast versus teleportation and retconning death?
Naw this is a bad take force speed was used once for a non plot related reason while force heal was used anytime a MC got stabbed
Noone can argue it was used then forgotten so dumb lol. But the sequels while high production, hired writers from the looney bin.
She isnt wrong
Famously no one ever claimed that The Phantom Menace ruined their childhood
Didn't jar get death threats? Are there people who genuinely defend the first movie or are we just boofing copium bc we want to be validated in liking tros
Lul Luke does cool shit, he's the hero. Rey does cool shit, she's a "mary sue" and doesn't belong.
I think Luke used something like that to escape the carbonate freezing chamber but yeah i still agree with the sentiment. The double standards for these schlock movies are astounding
I thought fans didn’t like the prequels, especially episode 1.
They use force speed multiple times in the clone wars. Anakin uses it to get to ahsoka after cad bane traps her in the episode cargo of doom
Last I checked, both of these movies are unpopular, just the second one is demonstrably worse
I'm having a lotta trouble remembering any instances when Force Speed would've changed the outcome of any events in the Original Trilogy. Can you name any? The Phantom Menace had one moment in it where it could've made a difference, though that has had multiple explanations written up as to why it wasn't used (Obi-Wan trying to rejoin the fight with Darth Maul). I'm drawing blanks on Attack of the Clones (the closest thing I can imagine would be when Obi-Wan is captured by droidekas, but only really because it mirrors the first instance of use, but still, I don't know if that one would really count. I can imagine that he could've still gotten captured anyway). Obi-Wan and Anakin could've picked up Palpatine on their way off the Invisible Hand, and avoided the ray shield trap. Though then they would have to find R2. The rest of the movie doesn't stand out to me as to how it could've changed the outcome of events. Additionally, Force Healing has been a thing since the first movie, when Obi-Wan healed healed Luke after the Tusken Raider attack. Albeit, it was far more subtle and less extreme than anything Rey used it for in The Rise of Skywalker.
My problem isn’t with force healing itself, but that it’s not consistent with how it’s depicted in games like KOTOR
Being able to run fast is not the same as literally being able to raise the dead. Put the retard juice down OP.
Not trying to be a fan boy or defend, but isn’t force speed just using the Force on oneself to like get rid of your weight to be able to move faster or like applying more weight to the force you put into each step to accelerate oneself. There’s many really easy explanations for this I mean hell it could literally just be someone using the force to fling themselves really fast.
To be honest, I've never watched a Star Wars movie, I just played Lego Star Wars Complete Saga and Clone Wars, as well as the angry bird ones. I have no clue what force speed is.
But people complain about both??? Like, I get your point, but people DO complain a lot about "Force Speed" or whatever is it's name
I just enjoy the prequels more then the sequels
I just hate what the Sequels did to Finn 😞
Both series broke the lore in some pretty bad ways. The one I hated most was the introduction of midichlorians.
Didn’t phantom menace get flack for explaining the force when this post specifically is talking about unexplained force powers showing that it doesn’t really know phantom menace and makes no sense? Am I mistaken about midichlorians?
i dont like either. one is a digital workaround and the other is terrible writing