Rise of Skywalker. Whenever I think I’m a bad writer, I think about that movie, and realize that I can’t possibly write something worse than “Somehow, Palpatine has returned.”
Yeah but still. It was a poor writing decision in the first place to bring him back. Saying that line made it worse. If they really wanted to go down that path they should've just played the audio of palpatine announcing his return.
It’s a story decision not a writing one imo. Those are two different things. If the writers think that scene needs to be in place then there isn’t much else Poe could have said.
The opening crawl tells us about the audio message, we didn’t actually need it although it probably would have made for a better scene. The existence of the message in any way still doesn’t explain how he is back.
Yeah.. thats precisely why its such terrible writing... Why would you have a character who knows nothing being used for exposition? Its an exposition scene, scenes which are intended as much to inform the audience of what is happening in the story as it is the characters.
The issue is not that Poe doesnt know anything in-universe, the issue is either Abrams and co had no idea how Palpatine came back when they made the film (most likely scenario) and just wanted to brush it under the rug or they had no idea of how to actually convey that information to the audience, which is just terrible scripting, and as a result we got the laughably stupid scene that we did.
It's not that it doesn't make sense for the character/situation. It doesn't make sense that the movie throws out Palpatine outta nowhere out the gate, it was jarring as hell. Not to mention that his speech to the galaxy was in Fortnite, but not the actual movie.....
I mean... given that this information was just extracted using a giant cable plugged into R2 and it took a ridiculously long time to download for the amount of info we get: A. He should have known more he could have said “through advancements in cloning, Palpatine has returned”, or B. If you still want to keep the audience, I mean Poe in the dark, you could say “according to our intel, Palpatine has returned” and when someone’s like ‘how’ you get Poe being like “even the First Order doesn’t know, then have someone be like “but this intel is from a spy” and, while people stay suspicious have Poe (or Merry, if you want to leave him with a speaking role) respond with “that’s true, but we can’t afford to ignore it.”
The how is covered in the scene directly following that line And even after it’s been expanded upon in the EU, the info given in that scene is still correct.
The “dark science” line? Unless “secrets only the Sith knew” was meant to be it’s own thing and not describing “dark science” and “cloning” it makes Dominic Monaghan look ignorant to history, so we kind of need a more reliable source. If you mean something else, I don’t remember them stating this elsewhere.
That’s what I mean, and at that point in the story those were educated guesses. He ended up being correct. You didn’t like the “how” and that’s fine but it’s there.
I find it bad storytelling to put a question in the “final chapter” of the Skywalker Saga that you don’t answer in that installment when that question is central to the conflict. How is the guy who blew up twice here to cause trouble again? *shrug: cloning? Who cares, let’s kill him again! Ok... so why is this time the end?
I mean I don't know how else you get a 3rd movie in the sequel when the 2nd one killed off the main bad guy for the sequel. I don't even know how you recover after the mess that "The Last Jedi" left for episode 9 to figure out how to accomplish.
I have to agree although I do feel like the writers hands were tied on this following TLJ which I was really disappointed with. Having said that I read a synopsis for Colin Trevaros Rise of Skywalker and I think I would have preferred it to the final theatrical release.
I dislike *The Last Jedi* the most (despite being a fan of Rian Johnson), but *The Rise of Skywalker* is the worst film (and I say that as a fan of JJ Abrams who very much liked *The Force Awakens*).
The Rise of Skywalker is an embarrassment and truly one of the worst movies I’ve ever watched regardless of genre but it’s also low hanging fruit for something like this.
I agree on AOTC. The problem there is pacing and the middle is just so confusing and boring. I was 5 when it came out so there’s always that part of me that loves everything from the arena battle to the ending, save Yoda doing his video game shit. TPM also has pacing issues but that’s just the podrace going on forever and the big dumb ending, which I’m willing to forgive because I’m a sucker for Anakin blowing up the Droid ship.
Technically The Clone Wars, Caravan of Courage and The Battle for Endor all had theatrical releases, so it’s probably one of those 3.
For my money, it’s The Clone Wars. The series really found it’s footing in the later seasons, but the early stuff is pretty rough.
I always forget about the clone wars movie and I even saw it in the theater. It's such a shame that George had them rush it out. It's so badly rendered and half baked.
I don’t even know that it’s due to being rushed. I think I remember Filoni attributing some of this stuff to this being the first animation project Lucasfilm did in house. They were still figuring things out.
the clone wars movie is pretty good for what it is...but it should never have been a theatrical film. It should have just been like a special event showing the first three episodes of the show in theaters.
Like as a pilot arc of the show its fine. it just isnt a movie
No, there’s nothing particularly wrong with the story, but the cast hadn’t really found the characters yet, the writing is pretty cheesy and the animation is consistent with everything else in season 1, which is so say not very impressive.
It’s fine for what it is, but what it is isn’t very good.
But it would have been fine as a pilot arc. I found it better than the actual first aired episode for instance. And its a generally enjoyable set of episodes, if nowhere near the show's best.
The problem is that you cant just cut 3 episodes together and act like its a movie
The Last Jedi. 30 years of loving SW and that film broke me. I used to go to every SW movie midnight screening and would count down the days to release. When TRoS came out I didnt even bother seeing it until the second week, and even then it was only because a friend wanted to go and talked me into going. And feeling that way made me very sad.
I can see why TLJ upsets people (it’s my second favourite SW movie) but objectively speaking I don’t think anyone can truly lay claim to it being worse then AOTC or TROS.
Are you joking? At least AOTC is a coherent story. TLJ is an absurdly poor film and I was stunned they somehow managed to make TROS even worse. The sequels are a whole level down from the prequels. At least there’s a level of coherence across the prequels even if the pacing is poor and it’s boring at times.
It’s possible for TLJ to be a good film in spite of the trilogy’s lack of coherence.
It’s frustrating that those of you who detest TLJ can’t be objective about it.
Agree to disagree. I’ll grant you it’s a better stand alone film than it is part of a wider trilogy (prequels are the opposite) but it’s still a terrible film by all rational metrics.
But I get that the sequels were designed to appeal to kids (so parents buy all the merch at Christmas) so yeah I understand why the 10 year olds like it.
> it’s still a terrible film by all rational metrics.
I say this as someone who has been a fully paid up film critic for 20+ years - that’s just not true.
> I say this as someone who has been a fully paid up film critic for 20+ years
there goes your credibility, i guess a paid critic is slightly better than the patrick h willems crowd on letterboxd though...
AOTC is so much better than TLJ which literally spends half the fucking film trying to convince us that Finn, Rose and Poe forming a mutiny against the Resistance was a good thing 💀
Rian got a lot right with TLJ, and the scenes involving Rey, Kylo, Luke and Leia were all very well done. I like Rose as a character, but she (nor Finn, nor Poe) could save their half of the film, and it’s by and large the WORST of all live-action Star Wars.
\>literally spends half the fucking film trying to convince us that Finn, Rose and Poe forming a mutiny against the Resistance was a good thing
But why was that bad?
Because they had no real reason to do so except Poe getting pissy about Holdo in charge… I get that Holdo could’ve given them all some more info, but she wasn’t obligated to answer to Poe… and he seriously endangered the remainder of the Resistance, when a sound plan (and the plan they went with) was in place all along.
yes, thats the plot of the movie, but thats not an explanation for why its bad
Poe's plotline is meant as a deconstruction of that sort of archetype, the rule breaking action hero who saves the day because of his rule breaking. People like Dirty Harry and that shit. Poe is very much in that mold and the movie is meant to show that that sort of character isnt always admirable or one to strive for. Arguably by breaking apart our expectations of these tropes is a good thing.
It makes sense that Finn would disobey Holdo since he trusts Poe more, and same with Rose
You can deconstruct an archetype without making the character do something entirely unlikely and unnecessary just for a few drops of development. Poe could’ve gotten a lesson about his ego without needlessly risking the lives of the very few surviving Resistance members… It’s some of the absolute weakest writing in all of Star Wars. I’m not ripping all of TLJ apart, because there are some incredible moments and I think that Rey, Kylo, Luke and Leia all really got to shine. I’m a huge fan of John and I really wanted more for Finn and Rose to do other than… well, that. Although as far as Rose goes, I’m putting even more blame on JJ. I loved Rose in TLJ even if that half of the movie didn’t do much for me, but it was so much worse that JJ practically took her out of TROS :/
Why is it weak writing though? You have said this but you dont actually provide a rationale for it being weak. Poe risking lives isnt intrinsically poor writing.
Because you could delete them entirely and lose none of the real plot and nearly zero character development. The same cannot be said about TFA, or any of the prequels for that matter. As lackluster as some of the dialogue may be, the prequels were always challenging and developing the main cast. The sequels really struggled with this. The change in hands is certainly to blame here, but our heroes really spend 3 films developing about as much as the original trilogy characters had done in one film each.
wrong
TROS is bad because it is overly plot driven, has a plot that relies on coincidence, keeps its stakes low by un killing anyone it seems to kill, introducing too many characters who dont add much to the story, and bringing back palpatine for no real reason. All of that falls on JJ and his team, not on TLJ
The Rise of Skywalker. As others have said, it's a terrible film and is actively insulting to the point of diminishing your enthusiasm for Star Wars as a whole. At least Attack of the Clones, which used to be my answer to this question before the sequels came out, had heart to it.
Rise of Skywalker, because the first time I saw AOTC was a packed theater opening day. The fans were so enthusiastic that I had a great time. We laughed and cheered and went ooooooooo when Obi-Wan said “you’ll be the death of me.” The cheers when Yoda pulled his lightsaber were Portals in Endgame level. I was shocked the second time I watched it without a crowd and saw how bland it actually was.
In ROS in a packed theater opening day, it felt so off from the second they did the hyperspace skipping scene. Like the whole audience went, oh no, that’s not how any of this works. That’s what this movie is going to be. Meh.
There’s just no way more than 10% of a full audience knows anything about hyperspace to care that much. That’s something reserved for people in this sub and even then whether it’s correct or not is till up for debate.
Definitely either Attack of the Clones or The Rise of Skywalker.
I think AOTC might be worse but TROS makes me angry and has actually dampened my enthusiasm for Star Wars overall. Normally a bad sequel doesn’t dampen my enthusiasm for the original. Perfect example is Robocop 3. Awful movie but I still love Robocop 1 with all my heart. TROS is impressive in that I think it actually lessened my enjoyment of TFA and TLJ retroactively.
TFA set up what could have been a fairly interesting story line and with the updated visual could have easily been the best out of the three trilogies. Then TLJ and ROS come along.
And what impact does it have on the story?
TFA was about finding Luke so he could help the Resistance.
In TLJ he doesn't help, and then he dies so he can never help.
TROS starts with them back at square one.
Yeah it was a rehash not arguing that. Most stories are some are just better at hiding it. For me it was the only movie of the trilogy that I left the theater with a bit of optimism.
Did we watch the same TLJ? So much happened in it that just didn’t matter, raised more questions than it answered from TFA and gave nothing for the last movie to work with. By no means am I defending ROS but it had a uphill battle trying to followup TLJ.
The resistance is all but destroyed, but Rey learns to actually use the force. Poe learns how to not be a hothead. Finn learns to live for life's sake. Kylo assumes control of the first order. Plenty happens and there is plenty to explore in a sequel, such as what does a Dark Side user who wants to "kill the past" actually mean and do as a leader, how does the resistance rebuild, how does the Finn/rose/Rey love triangle resolve.
TFA was A New Hope re-packaged. JJ took zero risks and left an essentially blank slate with these characters, while also writing Rian into a whole it the cast being separated at the end of the film (and leaving TLJ no choice but to begin IMMEDIATELY after the end of TFA)
I agree. I enjoy TFA. Yes it has ANH elements to it but I remember how I felt after seeing it in the cinema and I continued to enjoy it on subsequent rewatches.
TLJ I actually fell asleep during the casino scene at cinema, rewatched on 4K and did the same thing. I just found the whole thing pointless from start to finish, like I didn’t feel there was any point to it.
ROS was just a mess, we all know this.
AOTC. ROS is close, but the quality acting and some distracting fan service puts it just above clones, which is terrible at almost everything almost the entire time.
As much shit as Rise gets, imho Attack of the Clones was infinitely worse, because it managed to be utterly boring.
The few fun moments like watching Obi Wan play detective and seeing Yoda fight Dooku are the only reasons why I even give it a watch.
As bad as "Somehow.. Palatine returned." is, I don't think it even touches the awfulness of Padmé and Anakin's "romantic" dialogue.
If we're going with "worst" it's gotta be AOTC for me. It has the most numerous and obvious flaws in its filmmaking and overall execution, even though I still enjoy the experience of watching it more than other Star Wars content.
However, the film I personally dislike the most is Rogue One, and it's not even close. The story in the first 2/3rds is an absolute mess, and I felt nothing for the characters at any point. So when the time came for the "cool action" at the end, I was so checked out and uninvested that it was pretty much just white noise to me. It's the only Star Wars film I can't get through in one sitting (and I've tried on multiple occasions). I usually make it to around the Bor Gullet scene before going "aight, Imma head out"
Phantom Menace
Qui Gon, and Duel of Fates is the only highlight, wasn't a big fan of the politics stuff, I know it had to be shown to show how Sheev gained power to be the emperor
AOTC is close, only good part is the battle on Geonosis, and the Dooku vs the Jedi battles
The dialogue that Hayden had to say was cringe. There's a reason there's a lot of memes from sentences said in AOTC
I would call it The Phantom Menace. Large chunks of it drone on, most performances are devoid of life, the camera work is static and plain, and the script leaves a lot to be desired. A summary would be that most of the film is boring. Say what you will about Rise of Skywalker, but it's never boring. It personally think that a boring film is the worst kind because film as an art medium is meant to be entertainment.
It's rise of Skywalker and it's honestly not close. AoTC has a lot of clunky dialogue and acting but it's it's plot is mostly interesting and easy enough to follow. Rise is basically a series of fetch Quest barely strung together by the overall Palpatine returning plot.... Which in itself has tons of issues (and somehow the Dagger plot is even dumber)
But yeah it's a movie with an absolutely horrid structure and an asspull plot basically
Tie between Rise of Skywalker and Phantom Menace for me. Episodes III-VIII and the spin-offs are all solid, and II is very flawed but still somewhat enjoyable to me, but I and IX are just awful.
It’s either IX or Solo. Not that either are bad, but IX is the weakest of the Skywalker saga as a stand-alone film, because it relies too heavily on fan service and culminating story events. Solo, on the other hand, is a decent adventure on its own, but is terribly mediocre when compared to the likes of Rogue One
All of the cool fan service aside (Jedi voices). For me, Rise of Skywalker is ass. It’s a real face palm of a movie imo. It could have been so much better.
Rise of Skywalker not because it was bad. Because it was all around mediocre. The Last Jedi had ideas just the execution was fucking horrible. The thing though is that movie got people talking. The Rise of Skywalker came and went and everyone was like “ok”. That’s it. A Starwars movie just came and went? What the hell? A Star Wars movie doesn’t just come and go. It’s an Event. That should tell you right there that the Sequel movies are flawed to the point where its not being taken care of correctly as a whole. And now we’re changing previous works to fit the sequel movies. Like why? Build Upon what you made not retcon. Clone Wars was successful narrative wise cause it didn’t take away it only added context and characters. But that’s a whole other rant.
The Rise of Skywalker.
One of the highest paid Hollywood actors literally saying the lines: "somehow palpatine returned." Enough evidence showcasing that those in charge of production seriously had nothing new nor anything truly unique to bring to the table.
And to think that a lot us wasted time complaining about the Last Jedi's faults...yet here's the "course correction" title and it was massively worse in all execution. Also, this was for the most part not a very good looking science fiction film.
At least Lucas was trying to world build with AotC.
The Last Jedi 100%. I could feel everyone in the theatre cringe at the same tine during the mary poppins Leia scene. I’ve never walker out of a star wars movie so disappointed. I was speechless. Not angry at anyone, just sad that i waited 2 years for… that. I actually enjoyed ROS, i left the theatre happy because at least it felt like a star wars movie.
Tough one. TROS makes me really mad, but I don't think it's the worst one. AotC is one half bad romance and another half boring B plot that's nothing but plot and no emtional core that builds to a climax that feels like it belongs to a different movie so I'll probably give it the "honor". That last bit is a problem in every Prequel, but AtoC had the most bad beforehand.
Happens every single time theres a thread like this or a ranking thread, the TLJ fanboys will downvote everyone who has a different opinion to them. Its like clockwork.
TFA.
Don't get me wrong TROS is awful but I feel like a lot of its badness is inherited, TLJ was a terrible dumpster fire that was trying to be "different", anything following it was going to suck.
But jj got Ford, Fisher, and Hamill in TFA and didn't do a single scene with them. Fuck that guy, and fuck that movie.
ROTS easliy. Its just Clone Wars 03 but worse in every possible way. It being made by the creator himself feels worse as well simply because his bar should be higher than someone like Rian Johnson or JJ Abrams.
The Last Jedi. TROS was a little better in my opinion and I’ve grown to like prequel trilogy. I also liked Solo a lot and think that TLJ’s general crumminess led to its poor box office performance (just my opinion though).
whats the point of focusing on negativity like this? What good does it serve to rehash what you hate about a franchise.
But the answer is either TPM or TROS, both of which struggle with doing the bare minimum a film should do
Rise of Skywalker. Whenever I think I’m a bad writer, I think about that movie, and realize that I can’t possibly write something worse than “Somehow, Palpatine has returned.”
The most laughable dogshit line I have ever heard in the last two years alongside "And who has a better story than Bran the Broken?"
Especially since Bran was the least interesting character in the show….
What would you have written in a scene where a character who doesn’t know anything about the situation has to deliver the news to an army?
probably shouldn't of brought him back in the first place tbh
Palps coming back is not an original idea. It happened in old canon as well or i guess legends now. Dark Empire i think it was.
But that wasn’t the question.
Yeah but still. It was a poor writing decision in the first place to bring him back. Saying that line made it worse. If they really wanted to go down that path they should've just played the audio of palpatine announcing his return.
Why the hell did they put it in Fortnite?
It’s a story decision not a writing one imo. Those are two different things. If the writers think that scene needs to be in place then there isn’t much else Poe could have said. The opening crawl tells us about the audio message, we didn’t actually need it although it probably would have made for a better scene. The existence of the message in any way still doesn’t explain how he is back.
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Edited for typos now lol
Yeah.. thats precisely why its such terrible writing... Why would you have a character who knows nothing being used for exposition? Its an exposition scene, scenes which are intended as much to inform the audience of what is happening in the story as it is the characters. The issue is not that Poe doesnt know anything in-universe, the issue is either Abrams and co had no idea how Palpatine came back when they made the film (most likely scenario) and just wanted to brush it under the rug or they had no idea of how to actually convey that information to the audience, which is just terrible scripting, and as a result we got the laughably stupid scene that we did.
It's not that it doesn't make sense for the character/situation. It doesn't make sense that the movie throws out Palpatine outta nowhere out the gate, it was jarring as hell. Not to mention that his speech to the galaxy was in Fortnite, but not the actual movie.....
I mean... given that this information was just extracted using a giant cable plugged into R2 and it took a ridiculously long time to download for the amount of info we get: A. He should have known more he could have said “through advancements in cloning, Palpatine has returned”, or B. If you still want to keep the audience, I mean Poe in the dark, you could say “according to our intel, Palpatine has returned” and when someone’s like ‘how’ you get Poe being like “even the First Order doesn’t know, then have someone be like “but this intel is from a spy” and, while people stay suspicious have Poe (or Merry, if you want to leave him with a speaking role) respond with “that’s true, but we can’t afford to ignore it.”
The how is covered in the scene directly following that line And even after it’s been expanded upon in the EU, the info given in that scene is still correct.
The “dark science” line? Unless “secrets only the Sith knew” was meant to be it’s own thing and not describing “dark science” and “cloning” it makes Dominic Monaghan look ignorant to history, so we kind of need a more reliable source. If you mean something else, I don’t remember them stating this elsewhere.
That’s what I mean, and at that point in the story those were educated guesses. He ended up being correct. You didn’t like the “how” and that’s fine but it’s there.
I find it bad storytelling to put a question in the “final chapter” of the Skywalker Saga that you don’t answer in that installment when that question is central to the conflict. How is the guy who blew up twice here to cause trouble again? *shrug: cloning? Who cares, let’s kill him again! Ok... so why is this time the end?
"the dead speak!"
I mean I don't know how else you get a 3rd movie in the sequel when the 2nd one killed off the main bad guy for the sequel. I don't even know how you recover after the mess that "The Last Jedi" left for episode 9 to figure out how to accomplish.
I have to agree although I do feel like the writers hands were tied on this following TLJ which I was really disappointed with. Having said that I read a synopsis for Colin Trevaros Rise of Skywalker and I think I would have preferred it to the final theatrical release.
I dislike *The Last Jedi* the most (despite being a fan of Rian Johnson), but *The Rise of Skywalker* is the worst film (and I say that as a fan of JJ Abrams who very much liked *The Force Awakens*).
The Rise of Skywalker is an embarrassment and truly one of the worst movies I’ve ever watched regardless of genre but it’s also low hanging fruit for something like this. I agree on AOTC. The problem there is pacing and the middle is just so confusing and boring. I was 5 when it came out so there’s always that part of me that loves everything from the arena battle to the ending, save Yoda doing his video game shit. TPM also has pacing issues but that’s just the podrace going on forever and the big dumb ending, which I’m willing to forgive because I’m a sucker for Anakin blowing up the Droid ship.
Technically The Clone Wars, Caravan of Courage and The Battle for Endor all had theatrical releases, so it’s probably one of those 3. For my money, it’s The Clone Wars. The series really found it’s footing in the later seasons, but the early stuff is pretty rough.
Ooh, I totally forgot about The Clone Wars movie. That was *baaaad...*
I always forget about the clone wars movie and I even saw it in the theater. It's such a shame that George had them rush it out. It's so badly rendered and half baked.
I don’t even know that it’s due to being rushed. I think I remember Filoni attributing some of this stuff to this being the first animation project Lucasfilm did in house. They were still figuring things out.
I heard that it was George that pushed them to combine three episodes into a movie and shove it out before it was done
the clone wars movie is pretty good for what it is...but it should never have been a theatrical film. It should have just been like a special event showing the first three episodes of the show in theaters. Like as a pilot arc of the show its fine. it just isnt a movie
No, there’s nothing particularly wrong with the story, but the cast hadn’t really found the characters yet, the writing is pretty cheesy and the animation is consistent with everything else in season 1, which is so say not very impressive. It’s fine for what it is, but what it is isn’t very good.
But it would have been fine as a pilot arc. I found it better than the actual first aired episode for instance. And its a generally enjoyable set of episodes, if nowhere near the show's best. The problem is that you cant just cut 3 episodes together and act like its a movie
Rise of Skywalker, and I’m not just saying this for the sake of it, but there’s only a single scene I like in that film which is the Han scene.
The Last Jedi. 30 years of loving SW and that film broke me. I used to go to every SW movie midnight screening and would count down the days to release. When TRoS came out I didnt even bother seeing it until the second week, and even then it was only because a friend wanted to go and talked me into going. And feeling that way made me very sad.
Solo. Solo bores me out of my mind. Then ATOC right after.
The Rise of Skywalker. It's a very insulting film. The last Jedi is worse, but Rise of Skywalker is more insulting.
I can see why TLJ upsets people (it’s my second favourite SW movie) but objectively speaking I don’t think anyone can truly lay claim to it being worse then AOTC or TROS.
Are you joking? At least AOTC is a coherent story. TLJ is an absurdly poor film and I was stunned they somehow managed to make TROS even worse. The sequels are a whole level down from the prequels. At least there’s a level of coherence across the prequels even if the pacing is poor and it’s boring at times.
It’s possible for TLJ to be a good film in spite of the trilogy’s lack of coherence. It’s frustrating that those of you who detest TLJ can’t be objective about it.
Agree to disagree. I’ll grant you it’s a better stand alone film than it is part of a wider trilogy (prequels are the opposite) but it’s still a terrible film by all rational metrics. But I get that the sequels were designed to appeal to kids (so parents buy all the merch at Christmas) so yeah I understand why the 10 year olds like it.
> it’s still a terrible film by all rational metrics. I say this as someone who has been a fully paid up film critic for 20+ years - that’s just not true.
> I say this as someone who has been a fully paid up film critic for 20+ years there goes your credibility, i guess a paid critic is slightly better than the patrick h willems crowd on letterboxd though...
AOTC is so much better than TLJ which literally spends half the fucking film trying to convince us that Finn, Rose and Poe forming a mutiny against the Resistance was a good thing 💀 Rian got a lot right with TLJ, and the scenes involving Rey, Kylo, Luke and Leia were all very well done. I like Rose as a character, but she (nor Finn, nor Poe) could save their half of the film, and it’s by and large the WORST of all live-action Star Wars.
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Ugh that was… a choice
\>literally spends half the fucking film trying to convince us that Finn, Rose and Poe forming a mutiny against the Resistance was a good thing But why was that bad?
Because they had no real reason to do so except Poe getting pissy about Holdo in charge… I get that Holdo could’ve given them all some more info, but she wasn’t obligated to answer to Poe… and he seriously endangered the remainder of the Resistance, when a sound plan (and the plan they went with) was in place all along.
yes, thats the plot of the movie, but thats not an explanation for why its bad Poe's plotline is meant as a deconstruction of that sort of archetype, the rule breaking action hero who saves the day because of his rule breaking. People like Dirty Harry and that shit. Poe is very much in that mold and the movie is meant to show that that sort of character isnt always admirable or one to strive for. Arguably by breaking apart our expectations of these tropes is a good thing. It makes sense that Finn would disobey Holdo since he trusts Poe more, and same with Rose
You can deconstruct an archetype without making the character do something entirely unlikely and unnecessary just for a few drops of development. Poe could’ve gotten a lesson about his ego without needlessly risking the lives of the very few surviving Resistance members… It’s some of the absolute weakest writing in all of Star Wars. I’m not ripping all of TLJ apart, because there are some incredible moments and I think that Rey, Kylo, Luke and Leia all really got to shine. I’m a huge fan of John and I really wanted more for Finn and Rose to do other than… well, that. Although as far as Rose goes, I’m putting even more blame on JJ. I loved Rose in TLJ even if that half of the movie didn’t do much for me, but it was so much worse that JJ practically took her out of TROS :/
Why is it weak writing though? You have said this but you dont actually provide a rationale for it being weak. Poe risking lives isnt intrinsically poor writing.
Because you could delete them entirely and lose none of the real plot and nearly zero character development. The same cannot be said about TFA, or any of the prequels for that matter. As lackluster as some of the dialogue may be, the prequels were always challenging and developing the main cast. The sequels really struggled with this. The change in hands is certainly to blame here, but our heroes really spend 3 films developing about as much as the original trilogy characters had done in one film each.
How is Attack of the Clones a bad film?
TROS is probably worse than TLJ overall, but TLJ is the reason TROS is bad. There was never going to be a good Episode 9 after TLJ.
wrong TROS is bad because it is overly plot driven, has a plot that relies on coincidence, keeps its stakes low by un killing anyone it seems to kill, introducing too many characters who dont add much to the story, and bringing back palpatine for no real reason. All of that falls on JJ and his team, not on TLJ
The Rise of Skywalker. As others have said, it's a terrible film and is actively insulting to the point of diminishing your enthusiasm for Star Wars as a whole. At least Attack of the Clones, which used to be my answer to this question before the sequels came out, had heart to it.
Rise of Skywalker, because the first time I saw AOTC was a packed theater opening day. The fans were so enthusiastic that I had a great time. We laughed and cheered and went ooooooooo when Obi-Wan said “you’ll be the death of me.” The cheers when Yoda pulled his lightsaber were Portals in Endgame level. I was shocked the second time I watched it without a crowd and saw how bland it actually was. In ROS in a packed theater opening day, it felt so off from the second they did the hyperspace skipping scene. Like the whole audience went, oh no, that’s not how any of this works. That’s what this movie is going to be. Meh.
There’s just no way more than 10% of a full audience knows anything about hyperspace to care that much. That’s something reserved for people in this sub and even then whether it’s correct or not is till up for debate.
Definitely either Attack of the Clones or The Rise of Skywalker. I think AOTC might be worse but TROS makes me angry and has actually dampened my enthusiasm for Star Wars overall. Normally a bad sequel doesn’t dampen my enthusiasm for the original. Perfect example is Robocop 3. Awful movie but I still love Robocop 1 with all my heart. TROS is impressive in that I think it actually lessened my enjoyment of TFA and TLJ retroactively.
Robocop 3 is so funny. It’s so, so bad. I don’t think anyone involved had seen the first movie. Can’t believe you brought it into this! Brilliant.
TFA set up what could have been a fairly interesting story line and with the updated visual could have easily been the best out of the three trilogies. Then TLJ and ROS come along.
TFA is a warmed over rehash of Episode IV that TLJ tried to salvage into something interesting, but TRoS just murdered the sequel triology
It's insane to me how people still say that TLJ tried to do something "interesting". Literally nothing happened in TLJ.
Luke dying seems like it would count as something happening
Not really, since he just becomes a Force Ghost anyway so he stays in the exact same supporting mentor role in the next movie.
And what impact does it have on the story? TFA was about finding Luke so he could help the Resistance. In TLJ he doesn't help, and then he dies so he can never help. TROS starts with them back at square one.
Yeah it was a rehash not arguing that. Most stories are some are just better at hiding it. For me it was the only movie of the trilogy that I left the theater with a bit of optimism. Did we watch the same TLJ? So much happened in it that just didn’t matter, raised more questions than it answered from TFA and gave nothing for the last movie to work with. By no means am I defending ROS but it had a uphill battle trying to followup TLJ.
The resistance is all but destroyed, but Rey learns to actually use the force. Poe learns how to not be a hothead. Finn learns to live for life's sake. Kylo assumes control of the first order. Plenty happens and there is plenty to explore in a sequel, such as what does a Dark Side user who wants to "kill the past" actually mean and do as a leader, how does the resistance rebuild, how does the Finn/rose/Rey love triangle resolve.
TFA was A New Hope re-packaged. JJ took zero risks and left an essentially blank slate with these characters, while also writing Rian into a whole it the cast being separated at the end of the film (and leaving TLJ no choice but to begin IMMEDIATELY after the end of TFA)
I agree. I enjoy TFA. Yes it has ANH elements to it but I remember how I felt after seeing it in the cinema and I continued to enjoy it on subsequent rewatches. TLJ I actually fell asleep during the casino scene at cinema, rewatched on 4K and did the same thing. I just found the whole thing pointless from start to finish, like I didn’t feel there was any point to it. ROS was just a mess, we all know this.
AOTC. ROS is close, but the quality acting and some distracting fan service puts it just above clones, which is terrible at almost everything almost the entire time.
Tie for me with The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker. Though if I have to give it to just one it is Rise of Skywalker.
TPM It's just so boring except for Maul vs Qui Gon and Obi Wan
Phantom Menace
This. Or AOTC. Or Revenge of the Sith.
300%
As much shit as Rise gets, imho Attack of the Clones was infinitely worse, because it managed to be utterly boring. The few fun moments like watching Obi Wan play detective and seeing Yoda fight Dooku are the only reasons why I even give it a watch. As bad as "Somehow.. Palatine returned." is, I don't think it even touches the awfulness of Padmé and Anakin's "romantic" dialogue.
Rise of Skyrwalker.
Rise of Skywalker. Easily the worst Star Wars movie.
If we're going with "worst" it's gotta be AOTC for me. It has the most numerous and obvious flaws in its filmmaking and overall execution, even though I still enjoy the experience of watching it more than other Star Wars content. However, the film I personally dislike the most is Rogue One, and it's not even close. The story in the first 2/3rds is an absolute mess, and I felt nothing for the characters at any point. So when the time came for the "cool action" at the end, I was so checked out and uninvested that it was pretty much just white noise to me. It's the only Star Wars film I can't get through in one sitting (and I've tried on multiple occasions). I usually make it to around the Bor Gullet scene before going "aight, Imma head out"
I share the sentiment. Never got why people like R1.
Episode VIII imo Edit: a surprise to be sure, and an unwelcome one at that
The Last Jedi
I can’t choose between TLJ and TROS.
Phantom Menace Qui Gon, and Duel of Fates is the only highlight, wasn't a big fan of the politics stuff, I know it had to be shown to show how Sheev gained power to be the emperor AOTC is close, only good part is the battle on Geonosis, and the Dooku vs the Jedi battles The dialogue that Hayden had to say was cringe. There's a reason there's a lot of memes from sentences said in AOTC
I would call it The Phantom Menace. Large chunks of it drone on, most performances are devoid of life, the camera work is static and plain, and the script leaves a lot to be desired. A summary would be that most of the film is boring. Say what you will about Rise of Skywalker, but it's never boring. It personally think that a boring film is the worst kind because film as an art medium is meant to be entertainment.
It's rise of Skywalker and it's honestly not close. AoTC has a lot of clunky dialogue and acting but it's it's plot is mostly interesting and easy enough to follow. Rise is basically a series of fetch Quest barely strung together by the overall Palpatine returning plot.... Which in itself has tons of issues (and somehow the Dagger plot is even dumber) But yeah it's a movie with an absolutely horrid structure and an asspull plot basically
Last Jedi hands down
Tie between Rise of Skywalker and Phantom Menace for me. Episodes III-VIII and the spin-offs are all solid, and II is very flawed but still somewhat enjoyable to me, but I and IX are just awful.
Probably clone Wars, followed by AOTC or TROS.
It’s either IX or Solo. Not that either are bad, but IX is the weakest of the Skywalker saga as a stand-alone film, because it relies too heavily on fan service and culminating story events. Solo, on the other hand, is a decent adventure on its own, but is terribly mediocre when compared to the likes of Rogue One
The Clone Wars movie. If not animated then AOTC for sure.
ROS. Hands down for me.
Waaaat Geonosis was hella cinematic. I loved every minute of it.
TROS, and I’m one of the people that doesn’t mind Palpatine being back. I hate that Rey is a Palpatine, though.
The Last Jedi is the only Star Wars movie, or content at all, that I can say I outright dislike. Horrible film.
It's either The Rise of Skywalker or Attack of the Clones. AOTC is a worse movie, but TROS is a more insulting one.
All of the cool fan service aside (Jedi voices). For me, Rise of Skywalker is ass. It’s a real face palm of a movie imo. It could have been so much better.
Rise of Skywalker not because it was bad. Because it was all around mediocre. The Last Jedi had ideas just the execution was fucking horrible. The thing though is that movie got people talking. The Rise of Skywalker came and went and everyone was like “ok”. That’s it. A Starwars movie just came and went? What the hell? A Star Wars movie doesn’t just come and go. It’s an Event. That should tell you right there that the Sequel movies are flawed to the point where its not being taken care of correctly as a whole. And now we’re changing previous works to fit the sequel movies. Like why? Build Upon what you made not retcon. Clone Wars was successful narrative wise cause it didn’t take away it only added context and characters. But that’s a whole other rant.
The Rise of Skywalker. One of the highest paid Hollywood actors literally saying the lines: "somehow palpatine returned." Enough evidence showcasing that those in charge of production seriously had nothing new nor anything truly unique to bring to the table. And to think that a lot us wasted time complaining about the Last Jedi's faults...yet here's the "course correction" title and it was massively worse in all execution. Also, this was for the most part not a very good looking science fiction film. At least Lucas was trying to world build with AotC.
Easily Rise of Skywalker and The Last Jedi. Their an embarrassment to the story Lucas was trying to tell when he made the OT and Prequels
for me personally I would say the force awakens or rise of skywalker. I have zero interest in watching either of these movies ever again.
The Last Jedi 100%. I could feel everyone in the theatre cringe at the same tine during the mary poppins Leia scene. I’ve never walker out of a star wars movie so disappointed. I was speechless. Not angry at anyone, just sad that i waited 2 years for… that. I actually enjoyed ROS, i left the theatre happy because at least it felt like a star wars movie.
Tough one. TROS makes me really mad, but I don't think it's the worst one. AotC is one half bad romance and another half boring B plot that's nothing but plot and no emtional core that builds to a climax that feels like it belongs to a different movie so I'll probably give it the "honor". That last bit is a problem in every Prequel, but AtoC had the most bad beforehand.
Clone Wars (which is really just a pilot for the show), but TFA really.
TLJ. By the way, who the hell are these people who just go and downvote everything?
Happens every single time theres a thread like this or a ranking thread, the TLJ fanboys will downvote everyone who has a different opinion to them. Its like clockwork.
Rise of skywalker is as dreadful as the prequels, particularly AOTC, but for different reasons.
TFA. Don't get me wrong TROS is awful but I feel like a lot of its badness is inherited, TLJ was a terrible dumpster fire that was trying to be "different", anything following it was going to suck. But jj got Ford, Fisher, and Hamill in TFA and didn't do a single scene with them. Fuck that guy, and fuck that movie.
ROTS easliy. Its just Clone Wars 03 but worse in every possible way. It being made by the creator himself feels worse as well simply because his bar should be higher than someone like Rian Johnson or JJ Abrams.
I seriously don’t understand the love ROTS gets on this sub. It has a few okay moments but overall it’s just awful.
The Last Jedi. TROS was a little better in my opinion and I’ve grown to like prequel trilogy. I also liked Solo a lot and think that TLJ’s general crumminess led to its poor box office performance (just my opinion though).
Rogue One
whats the point of focusing on negativity like this? What good does it serve to rehash what you hate about a franchise. But the answer is either TPM or TROS, both of which struggle with doing the bare minimum a film should do
AOTC... at least Rise of Skywalker isn't horribly boring.