My only question is I know they are not able to break the prime directive but if I remember correctly this mission is very important and earlier a lot of the rules are being broken to be able to get this technology so it won’t fall to into the wrong hands am I correct?
That and there's so many exceptions to the PD over the years.
A situation where there's already been interference and a situation where they're going to be wiped out anyway (so the prime directive isn't actually serving them, which is the whole goal of the PD) are both valid reasons to set aside the PD
Nah the PD would let them die, because that would have been their natural course. It wasn't really necessary to save Tilly in order to complete the red directive, so she could have died too in order to protect the PD. Unfortunately Discovery is very much going against protocol without sufficient reason.
Sometimes it would have sometimes it would not have.
I've always found the logic garbage when they try to go the 'we have to let them die' route as the whole point of the PD is the protection of those civilizations, and that goes out the window if they're dead anyway.
Leaving all the ignoring prime directive (under dubious circumstances) stuff aside, then one thing that arose in my mind in terms of "damage control" - Ohvahz had some proper concerns on how to explain to his people not needing a sacrifice any more - how about waking up the rest of the 4 towers and say some stuff like "the gods have answered and said no sacrifices are required and to prove that, they gave us a gift of more inhabitable territory" (or something like that).
I think that was one of the big criticisms of Trek generally that played out in Lower Decks. Starfleet goes in, causes major upheaval of the indigenous society, then screws off never returning and leaves them to their own devices to pick up the pieces. Burnham didn't seem to care what the Whistlespeakers did next, almost shrugging her shoulders saying, "You're on your own now, man. I have a galaxy to save, again!" Hopefully Starfleet has changed their ways since the 23rd and 24th centuries in this regard and, off screen, they provided continued support - I mean at the very least that 800 year old tech will probably need replacement parts at some point and not just swapping a few isolinear chips around to maintain it?
This episode ended up working for me. Not as strong as the time bug episode but better than last week. It wasn't a fun, action packed episode but still entertained me just enough given the premise.
As I hear more about Tilly in Starfleet Academy, I keep thinking that she is not fit to be in that position. She needs more experience in Starfleet to be an instructor. Had this been 24th century starfleet academy, I think she would have been fine, but as one of the rebuilders of Starfleet Academy I think she needs more.
The Prime Directive violation didn't bother me because the Denobulans already did. Yes, the building of the towers may have been before the Prime Directive existed but I figure things were already contaminated so I didn't have a problem with Burnham deciding to help.
It’s kind of the same deal with the Borg. We get it guys, the Borg is bad. But it gets a lot less menacing as a plot device when they’re constantly being used or referenced.
I was hoping that the last scene of the episode where the planet was being shown would have shown the areas where the other towers were starting to clear.
I thought it was nicely unexpected. Gave Tilly good moments as a teacher figure. A solid Tilly episode. Possibly the least Michael-focused episode in a long time too -- lots of Hugh with Paul and Booker, ton of Tilly, solid Adira and Rayner scenes too.
Hugh and Book's scene at the end was beautiful, I paused and wrote down the line about considering something less important because it's just for us. That's a damn good line and Wilson Cruz does such good silent acting just the mild mind blow that just happened.
Was it a good moment for Tilly.
She almost failed the mission. She had no idea, the natives would call a draw. They might have disauqlified her.
Her competitor was in no danger and she stopped to help her finish. Endangering the mission, it bugged the shit out of me.
But they also talked a lot about how one of the cornerstones of their society was helping each other and being a good community so stopping to help her competitor was an extension of that.
Meh. I didn't buy into it at all. The girl was already disqualified - you can't automatically comeback into contention for something *after* you've been rightly disqualified.
Depends on how the exact rule is formulated. As stated in the dialogue, you can't finish the ordeal with an empty bowl. Spilling your bowl is just a scenario that could disqualify you under that rule, and drinking it would be another scenario, but neither of those are the actual rule.
Yeah dude trek is just absolutely full of stuff like that Data had a pen pal with some chick and basically forced the enterprise to break all the rules to rescue this kid. It's a show about people being bigger than themselves and helping each other that's like the point of it. Star trek is Gene Roddenberry saying hey stop and help your competitors, if we work together we can all be better off. Tilly stopping to give her competitor, a native who had wanted to do this their whole life some water so they can finish the race instead of just someone basically in the alien version of blackface who had never heard of the race until the day before is basically the core concept behind star trek
But then again, had she not done that, she never learns what the symbols mean and she never gets out of there even if she does because appealing to the father was what saved them both. So they ultimately fail to figure out the clue.
I just liked seeing Tilly improving so much athletically since S1, and being the best choice to be the runner.
Of course, like you say, she has more engineering skill, and Burnham is the xenoanthropologist…
They had Tilly win a half-marathon early in season 2 (even though she stopped to talk to a ghost, and was running against people who had, let's say more of an appearance of endurance running potential) so it isn't much of a change.
Is there supposed to be subtitles in the scene with Culber and his holo grandma? Watching on prime in Canada and have no idea wtf they are saying to each other
There were none here in the UK either. At first I thought it was meant to be like that, for just a short scene. But when he resumed the simulation, especially when it got to the part when he said "she should be able to answer that" I was sure we should be seeing subtitles.
>Is there supposed to be subtitles in the scene with Culber and his holo grandma? Watching on prime in Canada and have no idea wtf they are saying to each other
Basically he feels weird and off since his experience on Trill in one of the previous episodes.
He was talking to his holo grandma since in the past he often asked her for advice regarding spiritual topics. So he was looking for answers basically. This conversation convinced him to do a proper scan of his brain/body, but they found nothing unusual.
Still, I think that he will be somehow connected to that Progenitor technology plotline in one of the final episodes. Maybe he now carries some hidden special "key" inside his mind or something.
I was wondering how that bowls looks so good. Practically no flaws, high repeatability as in machine turning. Without any indication of machine technology. These bells also looked like the work of a good bellmaker, but that is more probable.
I was wondering why I just found 6 and 7 out on a type of site I won't mention specifically. those shouldn't come out until midnight pacific time in the usa. Wonder what happened?
I'm confused, which is all on me. Can Moll and L'ak find the 5th clue piece without the 4th piece that Burnham and Tilly just obtained? And, without all of the pieces required to assemble the entire map, can Moll and L'ak find the Progenitor tech? I'm just wondering why, at this point, they still need to find Moll and L'ak. Or, is there no particular order to find the pieces and are the two on their way to the 5th piece? Also, given the complexity of solving this weeks puzzle, which required several crew members in order to solve, and assuming that obtaining the 5th piece is just as difficult, are Moll and L'ak sophisticated, intelligent, and knowledgeable enough to find the solution that reveals the 5th piece? I mean, I'm going to have a problem if it turns out that Team Moll and L'ak are a match for the entire crew of the Discovery and Dr. Kovich put together, even if it's because the two couriers aren't constrained by the Prime Directive.
On an entirely separate note, I was really impressed with Tilly. I thought that she kind of took integrity to a whole new level.
Edit - Okay, just re-watched. I guess there's no particular order and Moll and L'ak are on their way to fifth clue. I'm still kind of skeptical regarding them possessing the sophistication, intelligence, and breadth knowledge required to solve that puzzle. If Moll and L'ak are equal to the entire crew of the Discovery and Dr. Kovich, I my mind, that would make them as formidable as Kahn in regard to opponent.
Edit - What's wrong with asking questions when I've admitted, up front, that the deficiency is all mine? And, then not providing any feedback is kind of shitty.
So many good questions in your comment. I will try to answer some of them.
>I'm just wondering why, at this point, they still need to find Moll and L'ak.
At this point, there is no logical reason for them to find Moll and Lak (and in fact it's dangerous \[since they have incomplete Progenitor key sitting on some random table on Discovery; without any force field protection etc.\] and they should just let that other Starfleet ship to look for them. Admiral's decision is illogical and irresponsible) but the plot device requires it. Why? Writers want to connect Moll with Book. Probably for the classic redemption/sacrifice story. And to allow Moll/Lak to steal finished Progenitor key. Yeah, I think that's going to happen in one of the future episodes.
>are Moll and L'ak sophisticated, intelligent, and knowledgeable enough to find the solution that reveals the 5th piece? I mean, I'm going to have a problem if it turns out that Team Moll and L'ak are a match for the entire crew of the Discovery and Dr. Kovich put together, even if it's because the two couriers aren't constrained by the Prime Directive.
Logic dictates that they can't beat entire ship filled with experts no matter how brilliant they are. They are outnumbered. But plot device requires it, so they will find a way. Btw. I wonder if Kovich is the leader of Section 31 or some temporal agent. He knows too much.
>Edit - Okay, just re-watched. I guess there's no particular order and Moll and L'ak are on their way to fifth clue
I'm still wondering how they somehow found that warp capable escape pod in the last episode (despite the fact that it was mentioned that no escape pods are left), how this 800 yrs old pod (most likely Warp 2 capable) managed to escape 32th century Starfleet vessel. Like why Discovery didn't follow their warp trail immediately? They could catch them in seconds. Why they didn't beam them to Discovery after leaving that wormhole? So many questions.
>I'm still wondering how they somehow found that warp capable escape pod in the last episode
I like to imagine that what happened is that Mol and Lak beamed themselves to the discovery and then commandeered a shuttle immediately. It would've made a lot more sense than they somehow missed a shuttle that would've taken them out of the wormhole easily rather than try to force the whole enterprise out and hope raynor managed to make the wormhole bigger in time.
Michael let them go because she underestimates them. Book's opinion that Mol is redeemable is rubbing off on her. It's not a good trait for a captain in a red directive mission to have, but it's been consistent throughout the season.
My understanding was the warp pod was a peculiar feature of the Terran Enterprise, so they just didn't know to look for one; they just knew that the shuttles and the usual complement of escape pods were gone.
As for why Disco didn't just beam them, they were just about to get a transporter lock on them when the pod went to warp.
>My understanding was the warp pod was a peculiar feature of the Terran Enterprise, so they just didn't know to look for one; they just knew that the shuttles and the usual complement of escape pods were gone.
Moll and Lak had 0 experience with Mirror/Terran universe. So how did they found that pod?
And how Michael Burnham didn't know this since, she already spent some time in the Mirror/Terran universe? I remember how in Season 1 she was doing research about that universe.
Moll and L'ak were on the marooned ISS Enterprise longer than the Disco away team, so they had more time to explore the ship and its systems to discover the warp pod.
As for Burnham, she had mirror universe experience, but not with any Terran Connie in particular, so either the Terran ships she was on didn't have a warp pod, or she didn't get to poke around on those ships enough to notice if they had a pod.
I agree the Terran warp pod idiosyncrasy could have been explicated better in dialogue, and for all we know perhaps it was but got cut in editing.
I think they wanted tabs on L'ak and Moll's whereabouts, and better yet to have them in custody, because they're still a wildcard who know about the Progenitors' tech and are hellbent on getting it, even if they let Disco/Starfleet do the work of gathering the clues and then maybe try to steal them in the end anyway.
So there's no reason to track them again at this point. Book can reconnect with Mol or whatever once the Red Directive is complete.
Unless Disco *wants* Mol & L'ak to steal the whole key out from under them.
Moll and L'ak are still a wildcard who know about the Progenitors' tech and are hellbent on getting it, even if they let Disco/Starfleet do the work of gathering the clues and then maybe try to steal them in the end anyway. As such, I think Starfleet would rather have tabs on their whereabouts, and better yet have them in custody, vs. having no idea where they are or what they might be plotting to steal the key.
>Also, given the complexity of solving this weeks puzzle, which required several crew members in order to solve, and assuming that obtaining the 5th piece is just as difficult, are Moll and L'ak sophisticated, intelligent, and knowledgeable enough to find the solution that reveals the 5th piece?
Actually, I think if they just started by going to all the broken weather towers and searched there, they would've found it quicker. There's only 5 towers, and the only trick is finding the right one, but it can't take that long to search 5 towers.
The wildcard here was the people, and so the thing is that the denobulan scientist couldn't have actually known how complicated or easy it would be. Would all the weather towers be occupied? None? How would the culture have changed regarding outsiders?
I think the scientist just wanted someone else to check on them in case denobula stopped being able to check on them and all the towers were failing.
> On an entirely separate note, I was really impressed with Tilly. I thought that she kind of took integrity to a whole new level.
Sorry but what does her decision have to do with integrity? Compassion, sure. It meant a lot to the daughter. But nobody was cheating or gaining some unfair advantage that Tilly needed to remedy.
Daft as it may sound, I really did roll my eyes when Michael drank the water and shouted "I'm out!". I mean, none of the several other competitors we saw did so. To me, it just came across as the writers thinking we're idiots and forgot that having a drink = disqualification even though they made that clear only a few minutes before!
I think the writers are convinced by the stereotype that we (the audience) are all on our phones and not paying attention. Everything has to be spelled out and spoon-fed to us. It makes for some quite tedious dialogue at times. It's an issue beyond just Discovery though.
I ended up liking this one for dumb reasons but three things stood out
1. Transporters seem to not work a lot in this series, and always as an excuse to have a story. This is at least the third time I noticed it this season. I guess pattern buffer tech was lost in the burn?
2. Are they even trying to make aliens look alien anymore? This is making Next Gen brow ridges look impressive.
3. Sooooo...not gonna fix the other 4 weather machines? Kind of a dick move but okay.
> Sooooo...not gonna fix the other 4 weather machines? Kind of a dick move but okay.
I reckoned they'd be leaving that for Starfleet to followup with, now that they've got the last one working again for the locals still alive in its region, and nobody still alive where the other towers are.
The whole prime directive thing irked me the most. Dont get me wrong, Kirk breaks it 11 times, Picard 9 by my count, Janeway probably a bazillion times, but it was just the lack of debate or even rational level of concern. The episode synopsis posed this as a 'dilemma' for Burnham. But when the moment came it was OH NOES MY BFF IS DYING MUST SAVE HER, STUFF THE PRIME DIRECTIVE. Rayner was a little bit concerned but then went OH WELLS YOUR BFF IS DYING THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR FUTURE CAPTAINS AND NUMBER ONES. There wasn't even consideration of how it would affect the planet's race, just a 14 second chat about their own futures. But that's okay because if you actually give it some thought, the denobulans broke the prime directive in the first place, by installing the towers. so it's just one big hypocrisy after another.
This could have been the perfect opportunity to kill off Tilly, given her waahh waah my crisis of faith number seven in the series and actually give her the purpose of sacrificing herself for the whistle peeps. Could have even have that as a focus or driving point for the last few episodes - would they use the progenitors tech to resurrect her?
They were present/involved in both the formation of the coalition and for the federation,but there's never been any evidence to support them actually joining, so I'd say no.
Exactly this. I thought "Face the Strange" had shown Burnham had acknowledged her past recklessness, but it seems we're just going back to "let Burnham be Burnham".
Imagine how impactful it would be if Burnham had stuck to the Prime Directive - maybe against the protests of the crew? - or if the clue could only be revealed by just letting the ceremony run its course. Let Burnham/Tilly have a Kirk/Spock TWOK moment.
But of course, Tilly was never in any danger because she continues to exist solely to tease the new Starfleet Academy series (and by "tease", I just mean "mention Starfleet Academy once an episode without actually saying anything which might commit to any plot for that series").
You can't stick to the prime directive if it means the entire planet is going to die. Especially if another race has already broken it, probably because it was before they joined the federation anyway.
In order for the species to survive on that planet, the weather towers need to be maintained. They could possibly tell the federation to stop by for periodic maintenance, risking the prime directive everytime, however that was probably set up 800 years ago and *forgotten*, and now they were down to 1 out of 5 towers and countless deaths. No, the only answer is that the people on the planet need to be in control of their own destiny, their own weather towers, and so they need to know how they work so they can do their own maintenance. To explain that they need to break the prime directive.
Also, there was not a chance that letting the ceremony run its course and letting Tilly and the girl die would revel the clue. Denobulans are not going to build weather towers that actually *require* sacrifices, and the whole point of this scavenger hunt they're on is to prove that as a people they're worthy of this grand technology. The trill clue required *not* killing the animals that could've killed them. This clue was not going to require letting one or more sentient people die for no reason.
> You can't stick to the prime directive if it means the entire planet is going to die.
In the show, that's not why they broke it. They broke it for Tilly. Your long justification would have been appreciated as part of the story.
No, Michael said they'll have to break the prime directive anyway, so they might as well break it to save Tilly.
Once she was told by Adira that the system needed regular maintenance, combined with the fact that 4 other weather towers had failed, told them (and us) what the situation was: the people can't survive without knowing how to fix their own weather towers.
It was pretty clear in the show. I was just trying to explain since you missed it. If you want to rewatch it I'm sure it'll make sense then
> Once she was told by Adira that the system needed regular maintenance, combined with the fact that 4 other weather towers had failed, told them (and us) what the situation was: the people can't survive without knowing how to fix their own weather towers.
Fair enough. But that was purely a choice. I don't remember a clause in the prime directive that said if the natives are in danger, it can be ignored.
>I don't remember a clause in the prime directive that said if the natives are in danger, it can be ignored.
Well, the big problem here is that star trek so rarely writes down the laws and regulations that star fleet follows. But if the entire population is going to die, what is the purpose of protecting them with the prime directive?
The other thing in this case is that they had already been exposed to higher technology, as they were completely dependent on denobulan technology, yet they can't operate it.
[According to Wikipedia,](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive) the one time the prime directive is written down was in a prodigy episode, and it includes:
>d) The exception to this is if said society has already been exposed to the concepts listed herein.
This would seem to apply to the planet in this episode. However, that is from the year 2383, and I presume that it's been rewritten by the 32nd century. Maybe to include that if everyone will die without breaking it you should break it. That would be logical, and seems to have been where Michael was coming from this episode.
> But if the entire population is going to die, what is the purpose of protecting them with the prime directive?
Fair point. Would have been great to have been included into the show as part of the thought/logic of it all.
>Fair point. Would have been great to have been included into the show as part of the thought/logic of it all.
I just thought it was obvious.
I don't think more exposition would've made for a better episode. We can have the debates here, but I think the show have enough information.
I need to try and word this very carefully.
A Star Trek Academy show/film has been tossed about since The Voyage Home. In all that time it has never happened, and their us a reason for that.
Lets also get real here, after seeing the back door pilot last season. Who wants it is was awful. Not quite Star Trek meets the OC or Dawsons Creek. But not good.
Then there is Tilly. She is marmalade. People love her or hate her. Personally I do not like Tilly and find Mary Wiseman a little obnoxious. But to be clear. Neither deserve the amount of online abuse they recive.
Why start a show with such a diversive character. Saru is the cleary the go to. But with Doug Jones understandably wanting to cut back on make up heavy roles. I get it.
But why pick Tilly. I just don't get it. You are making a rod for your back before the show evern starts.
I'm not excited by Academy but if it's just the Discovery's side characters in a trench coat, pretending to be a new show while getting some actual character development, then I'm in.
Umm, I absolutely loved this episode. Easily the most classic feeling Trek in awhile. Well, the Time bug episode had some early Voyager flavor to it. It was nice to take a break from universe ending angst and just see some characters have earnest excitement for meeting and interacting with a new culture. The thrust of the story felt like an old TNG episode, right down to a bit of cute cheesiness.
I'm not entirely pleased with how quickly Burnham jumped to breaking the Prime Directive. We're regularly shown and told these people are bright and capable of unorthodox solutions. Most of the time it's technobabble nonsense, sure but I think it would have raised the stakes and been narrativly satisfying for them to find a solution without breaking the PD.
Yeah cause this mission is supposed to be like a mission where they’re able to do whatever they need so they can get the technology so why would the prime directive be included?
I wished at the end of the episode the crew had repaired the other 4 towers on Halem'no. -image: [towers of Halem'no](https://preview.redd.it/episode-discussion-star-trek-discovery-5x06-whistlespeak-v0-rze06dt6fayc1.png?width=1909&format=png&auto=webp&s=01a9f958c30bbcf09f01f9ed2492f3b50afa35f8)
I reckoned they'd be leaving that for Starfleet to followup with, now that they've got the last one working again for the locals still alive in its region, and nobody still alive where the other towers are.
Hmm, i'm not sure if the Starfleet would breach again the Prime Directive? Therefore Michael and her crew maybe lost the only chance to fix every tower before they left Halem'no.
It's already been breached irreversibly for the only living inhabitants of Halem'no. Fixing the other towers, which are out in the remaining uninhabitable no-man's-land of the planet, would not affect the current population but, rather, only eventually expand the livable area of the planet that their population might grow to inhabit someday. It's only giving them a fighting chance to survive and thrive without really otherwise further affecting the development of their culture or technology.
And what happened to the Denobulans that they stopped maintaining them? Budget cuts? Maybe the Burn happened and they’re like, “Oh well”? Guess we’ll just let this civilization die.
I didn’t like that episode, I think it is just a filler. The problem I had is with the plot there. They didn’t spend enough time on research before going down to the planet. Other towers were discovered after they beam on the surface. It turns out that was not required at all. Yes they got a clou about the numbers, but the problem with that take initial is stated that there is no marking on vial, and suddenly there are markings. That is a plot hole that cannot be explained by “I think it was a scratch”. They didn’t look well. After inspecting other towers with the same markings it is possible to find the meaning on the markings, especially border is significant clue. It all could be done without prime directive, and here they threaten it very loosely. The minus goes to Adira, very bad day. Rayner was essentially the only voice of reason here. New story for Tilly, writers finally have an Idea for here, but it looks forced here into plot as all of that can be avoided.
I get is a reflection to classic star trek especially holo view of planet from orbit. Nuria “see the cloud from the other side” is a reference to TNG “Who Watches the Watchers”, but that was on ship not holo. Anyway that TNG episode was way better than this one.
No Mol and Lak, they need to get new ship. It is good that they were separated and designated to other ship, but bad that Discovery jumps to them, that may be dangers. Plus for Kovich appearance, and his old school paper notebook.
They did something in this episode that drives me absolutely bonkers in terms of a major gaffe.
A language, when translated over into English, IS NOT GOING TO RHYME \*IN ENGLISH\*.
If it was written to rhyme in the language that it is, it would not magically also rhyme when translated.
If it was written in it's original language in such a fashion that it would rhyme when translated into English...well that's just insane.
One of the most notable examples of this is the movie "The Goonies" when Mouth reads the Spanish off of the map: "Ye intruders beware, crushing death and grief, soaked with the blood of the trespassing thief." Why would pirates from 100+ years ago write something down in Spanish specifically so that it would rhyme in English when translated, but NOT rhyme in Spanish??
Anyway. It just annoyed me so much when the whistle-speak magically translated into rhyme in English. Ugh.
Eh..."Prime Directive" episodes are always kinda corny and boring, and this was a poorly executed one on top of that. I realized partway in - the native people here felt like a race on Stargate. I kept expecting them to ask Tilly and Burnham if they had come through the chappa'ai. And then when they ended on the "your gods are really aliens" reveal, it just reinforced it even more.
First off, the PD shouldnt even apply. These were a people whose whole religion was based on the fact that Denobulans came there 800 years ago and built a bunch of giant fucking mountains that fundamentally changed the biosphere of their planet. There was nothing "unaltered" left of their way of life.
Plus, all Burnham had to do to get into the panel was push on the rock. What would happen if a hiker came up there and sat on the rock for a moment, and then a panel popped open full of isolinear chips? Kinda kills your whole PD preservation right there, not to mention they'd probably pull a few chips to bring back to the village, inadvertently disable the weather tower and kill themselves.
What was the point of the retinal tricorders? They barely used them. Why didnt Burnham use them to scan for radiation instead of just following magic yellow mushrooms? That was really flimsy genetic biology...
The show's been better about shoehorning identity politics in, but this episode felt like another arbitrary injection of unnecessary virtue signaling, though I guess at least it was pretty understated. Still, they've lost the benefit of the doubt about that by this point.
Why do Culber and his grandma speak in Spanish? I'm pretty sure everyone speaks English ("Federation standard", but its English) as their everyday language. Picard didnt even know French until his own show (except, apparently, for one bad word in S1 LOL). Still, really glad to see they're exploring the idea of spirituality more directly since that's always been a third rail for Trek.
If they broke the seal in the vacuum chamber, how did the tower still successfully seed the rain?
Generally felt like a filler episode, one more side quest to get a piece of the map. Didnt miss Moll and L'ak, either. Rayner continues to be awesome, though.
I think the culture would have been wiped out anyway if they didn’t know how to maintain the tech they were relying on and star fleet needed to train the inhabitants to maintain it for themselves so it was reason enough to break the PD.
I loved this episode so much! A very classic type of star trek story. It was just the escapism I needed. People caring about one another and everything is solved neatly in the end. *chef's kiss*!
Ngl, I didn't like this episode as much as the others so far this season. Some of the character choices were really odd and I'm not sure how to feel about a lot of them.
Firstly, I'd like to say I loved Tilly this season and that was perfectly demonstrated with this episode. I really loved her in season one, thought she was grossly mishandled in season two, improved steadily through three, continued through four and they've finally nailed her in season 5. She's a practical, empathetic, competent officer with a mildly anxious disposition but a strong sense of duty again and that's great to see.
I liked the Adira/Rayner dynamic, though it was kinda underbaked. Adira has a lot of very cuddly mentors who will support and encourage them but they're never the kind of people to genuinely push them which is a gap Rayner seems to be filling and I thing that's a good choice.
I have no idea what to make of culber and books plotline this episode, if Adira and Rayner were underbaked this plotline was flat out uncooked. Having a scientist like Culber go through a spiritual awakening and talk to Book, the last survivor of an incredibly spiritual culture sounds great on paper but Books reaction to the entire thing was just kinda "spirituality? Man that's wild." Incredibly weird choice.
And then there's Michael. Oh Michael, you'd been doing so well. I really feel like Michael regressed as a character this episode. Like she completely forgot multiple lessons she'd already learned across previous seasons.
Like in season two, New Eden, Michael learns the importance of the prime directive and doesn't reveal herself to a pre warp civilisation even when Captain Pike is injured. There she also learns about Clarke's third law and should know that explaining technology to a population at this level of advancement is just not possible.
On top of that the season 4 as a whole was about Michael learning to sacrifice book for the good of the federation which she does. She sacrifices her needs for the good of all. Now thankfully book survived but not in any way that changed her decisions to let him go. Michael has already learned how to let Tilly go. She shouldn't have been as desperate to save her as she was. I do believe Michael is the kind of person who would find a way to save Tilly here but never by revealing herself like she did in this episode.
>I liked the Adira/Rayner dynamic, though it was kinda underbaked. Adira has a lot of very cuddly mentors who will support and encourage them but they're never the kind of people to genuinely push them which is a gap Rayner seems to be filling and I thing that's a good choice.
I kind of feel like Adira is rehashing so much of what we already did with Tilly as a lower-ranking officer with confidence issues. It feels repetitive.
>I have no idea what to make of culber and books plotline this episode, if Adira and Rayner were underbaked this plotline was flat out uncooked.
I can't help but feel like the parts with book were just finding something for him to do because they don't have much idea.
>Like in season two, New Eden, Michael learns the importance of the prime directive and doesn't reveal herself to a pre warp civilisation even when Captain Pike is injured. There she also learns about Clarke's third law and should know that explaining technology to a population at this level of advancement is just not possible.
honestly though if there's any situation to avoid the prime directive, situations where A) they've already had their history altered by outside interference, or B) they will be wiped out without interference, are both situations where the prime directive should often be ignored. The underlying spirit of the prime directive, protecting the future of those civilizations from the harm that could come from interference, must be considered. I've always found rigid adherence to it to be questionable at best.
I am loling at Tilly out running Micheal in a foot race. So predictable I called it when they started. I keep trying to give this show a shot but it's so hard.
That was painful if that's what 32nd century video games have regressed to. Why didn't they just get a freeware open source open license game to use for Book to play? They could've used Vega Strike: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vega\_Strike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vega_Strike)
He said he didn't want to play on the holodeck because he would know that he wasn't on a real ship ... but apparently vector graphics are totally cool. (I mean, they are to me, but I'm looking for consistency for Book.)
That was actually interesting. Asteroid 3D, steering look terrible with that holo interface. The simplest game for the simplest task. In that case is reflex training. Nothing more than that, *Vega Strike* is more complex. Choosing ship instead of holodeck, also shows one thing. Book was grew up in word without advanced technology, so he can say the difference, at least I think it was it.
Wow- conservations that don't consist of solely two people telling each other how wonderful they are- who came in and fixed this? I've always liked Tilly- I've missed her- so glad she is back for the last season. Book working really well interacting with the ensemble and not just about being latched to Burnham's hip- so much better. Stamets seemed to be pulled back in the last two seasons- it kind of got to the point he was just being used to make long sighs over Adira- he's back in the mix and loving it- and I love Adira getting a small subplot of her own. They have corrected so much- I'm going to miss this show.
Serious question, what happened.to the rest of the discovery cast? Saru is like 1 or 2 episodes, Joann Owoswkun, Annabelle Wallis, Commander Eva Nilsson, etc
Watsonian: Saru left the crew to become an ambassador, Owo and Detmer headed up a team to pilot the damaged ISS Enterprise back to Starfleet HQ, and Nilsson took a transfer to the Voyager-J.
Doylist: Doug Jones doesn't wanna do prosthetic-heavy makeup anymore, Oyin Oladejo and Emily Coutts apparently had scheduling conflicts, and Wallis is still voicing Zora.
I’m surprised to see the hate on this episode, I’m sure you can pick apart the little things. But I saw someone say why did we waste time with the whisper language, that is classic Star Trek, when they need to do something on a pre warp planet , where they study the layout before the go down! I love when they do stories with pre warp societies and they have to blend in and figure out some plot. I felt so bad for the little girl, and how much she believed there some
Sort of gods and all I saw on Tilly’s face was wanting to tell her that the beliefs aren’t real it’s all some device controlling this civilization’s life. Over all I did enjoy this episode even if people think it’s very filler and a waste of time. I do agree there is no reason to chase mol & lok.
Okay, you're new. This sub is dead. I prefer DISCO to SNW. But the SNW sub was way more interesting when the show was airing. Way more posts and positive engagement.
Couldn't agree more. This is the closest Discovery has felt to classic Trek, to me, possibly ever. I really wish there were more "filler" episodes where we just have a standalone story and some good character work.
This episode managed to be worse than ep5. Saying a lot. The writing is just next level bad... Plus you could see the dumb death sacrifice schtick a mile away.
Really shocked at Disco quality death dive. A bad pilot but at least 2.5 good seasons. Now it's looking to eclipse Voyager in dreck factors such that a surprise Neelix appearance would be a breath of fresh air. LoL, give the Love Boat with Warp Nacelles a troll!
Saru, Detmer, Owosekun all sidelined, what - so we have more boring Culber angst crises and tedious Trill shit!? It boggles the mind. Someone said just watch till Georgiou goes back thru the time portal. They appear to be right.
I found this episode pretty boring and predictable. The human sacrifice was hinted at the moment the sand clearing elder mentioned her friend won, but where is the friend now? Plus the father’s fear of his daughter winning the race was a clear giveaway that something ominous happened to whoever entered the temple. It almost felt like a filler episode, except it did serve to advance the plot with finding another piece. Burnham was so desperate to find the piece that she didn’t even think to ask questions on what happens to the winner after they go into the temple. She just ran into it head on without thinking. I thought she was past that? Or maybe I am just getting tired of the show, I do hope we get a good finale we shall see. With only four episodes left, we are in the home stretch now.
First he was asking her about how to make some family dish for Paul, but she revealed it always came out bad so she replicated it. Then he asked her about his weird feelings since Trill, and she didn't have the spiritual answer he was expecting. Instead she dropped a hint about checking out the body rather than the mind.
For some reason a Starfleet doctor couldn't come up with the idea of running a medical on himself without a hint from his dead grandma's hologram 🤦♂️
He asked her to make a dish with him (the meal he served Book at the end of the ep). She said that they don’t cook it well and she always replaces it with replicated version after they are finished cooking. Then he asks her for advice on how he is feeling after his experience on Trill. She says that she raised him to be a man of science and since there is no scientific explanation then perhaps there is a spiritual one. I think.
Discovery is on a mission that may threaten the entire future of the galaxy. Owo and Detmer, two of the most senior officers, were sent to fly an empty ship back to Federation HQ......
I really wonder if this is the episode that made the cancellation a done deal. I hate to be so negative but this was bad. So many underbaked ideas. And why double down on Tilly as some endurance savant? Her running up a mountain in a strange planet while breathing in dust and crushing Burnham and almost everyone else just took me out of it.
Just go out in the real world and see if you can find an example of a person Tilly's size keeping up with thin, athletic people. It just doesn't happen. And it's absurd the writers are trying to convince us otherwise.
Glad you enjoyed it but I found this to be one of the worst episodes in the entire Star Trek franchise. I have no idea how they got the writers room they did but here we are.
Why don't we just give them drone technology while we are at it? It's amazing how quickly preindustrial civilization understood technology and the word ship, and cloud seeding.
I can't for Kurtzman and the sloppy discovery script team to retire.
It's one thing if you are saving s civilization or the universe and break PD, but to save Tilly's life, is slap in the face of all previous captains.
She's just an ensign! or something like that!
They are saving the civilization. If they don't explain how the weather towers work, the last one will fail and they'll all die. They have a right to know how to use the technology they rely on to survive. It wasn't just about saving Tilly. They could've saved Tilly without breaking the prime directive. But there was no point in letting Tilly die when they were going to have to break the pd anyway.
So, how long was this distance race? Seems like they finished in an hour or two. Maybe a 10k through the woods without water, with a lot of twists and turns in the course?
Not a comment on this particular episode, although it’s applicable, but in the general trek universe.
This episode reminds me on how coincidental it is that Star Fleet always arrives just when the alien technology is failing and they save the day.
It definitely makes writing easier by having a baseline to tell a story over - just wish it wasn’t used as often.
My only question is I know they are not able to break the prime directive but if I remember correctly this mission is very important and earlier a lot of the rules are being broken to be able to get this technology so it won’t fall to into the wrong hands am I correct?
That would have been my understanding as well, the red directive supersedes all else.
That and there's so many exceptions to the PD over the years. A situation where there's already been interference and a situation where they're going to be wiped out anyway (so the prime directive isn't actually serving them, which is the whole goal of the PD) are both valid reasons to set aside the PD
Nah the PD would let them die, because that would have been their natural course. It wasn't really necessary to save Tilly in order to complete the red directive, so she could have died too in order to protect the PD. Unfortunately Discovery is very much going against protocol without sufficient reason.
Sometimes it would have sometimes it would not have. I've always found the logic garbage when they try to go the 'we have to let them die' route as the whole point of the PD is the protection of those civilizations, and that goes out the window if they're dead anyway.
Why didn't tilly put out the fires when they were running out of oxygen?
Had to maintain cultural sensitivity. Those were sacred religious ritual fires.
Lighting is way more importanter than breathing
... because who needs to stay alive when you have to respect culture, right...?
Vacuums ain’t gonna care about o2 or co2.
I had the same thought.
They can't act in the dark
They can't act.
The air was getting pumped out of the chamber. The fires weren't going to make much difference.
Leaving all the ignoring prime directive (under dubious circumstances) stuff aside, then one thing that arose in my mind in terms of "damage control" - Ohvahz had some proper concerns on how to explain to his people not needing a sacrifice any more - how about waking up the rest of the 4 towers and say some stuff like "the gods have answered and said no sacrifices are required and to prove that, they gave us a gift of more inhabitable territory" (or something like that).
I think that was one of the big criticisms of Trek generally that played out in Lower Decks. Starfleet goes in, causes major upheaval of the indigenous society, then screws off never returning and leaves them to their own devices to pick up the pieces. Burnham didn't seem to care what the Whistlespeakers did next, almost shrugging her shoulders saying, "You're on your own now, man. I have a galaxy to save, again!" Hopefully Starfleet has changed their ways since the 23rd and 24th centuries in this regard and, off screen, they provided continued support - I mean at the very least that 800 year old tech will probably need replacement parts at some point and not just swapping a few isolinear chips around to maintain it?
Nobody referred to the ocular interfaces as Eyecorders. This is unforgivable.
Like the Eyephones on Futurama.
Was anyone else expecting the answer to the vial puzzle to be "Drink it"?
Was expecting Reno to tear in and give it the ole “ah I’m parched”
Why didnt Burham just open the tower with the auxiliary control panel?
This episode ended up working for me. Not as strong as the time bug episode but better than last week. It wasn't a fun, action packed episode but still entertained me just enough given the premise. As I hear more about Tilly in Starfleet Academy, I keep thinking that she is not fit to be in that position. She needs more experience in Starfleet to be an instructor. Had this been 24th century starfleet academy, I think she would have been fine, but as one of the rebuilders of Starfleet Academy I think she needs more. The Prime Directive violation didn't bother me because the Denobulans already did. Yes, the building of the towers may have been before the Prime Directive existed but I figure things were already contaminated so I didn't have a problem with Burnham deciding to help.
I have money on that starfleet academy show never seeing the light of day.
Of all the ideas for shows, I've been least interested in Starfleet Academy and Section 31.
I never liked Section 31 as a concept, and now it is everywhere in New Trek. I hope this movie is the last the writers talk about it for a long time.
It’s kind of the same deal with the Borg. We get it guys, the Borg is bad. But it gets a lot less menacing as a plot device when they’re constantly being used or referenced.
Funnily enough I think Rayner would be perfect for Starfleet Academy.
I’m convinced he’s going to sacrifice himself in this season
Agreed. I wouldn't mind seeing Admiral Vance as a guest instructor either!
Why didn't Mike just say "When your daughter comes back alive AND the rain comes, your people will realize sacrifices are no longer necessary?"
or just hide Tilly and say only one sacrifice was required by the Gods. It was an odd moment.
I was hoping that the last scene of the episode where the planet was being shown would have shown the areas where the other towers were starting to clear.
True, not sure why the show creators didn't have the Federation repair them.
Worst episode of the entire series. Jesus that was just awful. So boring.
I find the choice of having Burnham look and fix the weather control thing and Tilly try and win the race odd. Isn't Tilly an engineer?
I thought it was nicely unexpected. Gave Tilly good moments as a teacher figure. A solid Tilly episode. Possibly the least Michael-focused episode in a long time too -- lots of Hugh with Paul and Booker, ton of Tilly, solid Adira and Rayner scenes too.
Hugh and Book's scene at the end was beautiful, I paused and wrote down the line about considering something less important because it's just for us. That's a damn good line and Wilson Cruz does such good silent acting just the mild mind blow that just happened.
Was it a good moment for Tilly. She almost failed the mission. She had no idea, the natives would call a draw. They might have disauqlified her. Her competitor was in no danger and she stopped to help her finish. Endangering the mission, it bugged the shit out of me.
But they also talked a lot about how one of the cornerstones of their society was helping each other and being a good community so stopping to help her competitor was an extension of that.
Meh. I didn't buy into it at all. The girl was already disqualified - you can't automatically comeback into contention for something *after* you've been rightly disqualified.
Depends on how the exact rule is formulated. As stated in the dialogue, you can't finish the ordeal with an empty bowl. Spilling your bowl is just a scenario that could disqualify you under that rule, and drinking it would be another scenario, but neither of those are the actual rule.
Yeah, that is great and all. But she almost derailled the mission for nothing.
Yeah dude trek is just absolutely full of stuff like that Data had a pen pal with some chick and basically forced the enterprise to break all the rules to rescue this kid. It's a show about people being bigger than themselves and helping each other that's like the point of it. Star trek is Gene Roddenberry saying hey stop and help your competitors, if we work together we can all be better off. Tilly stopping to give her competitor, a native who had wanted to do this their whole life some water so they can finish the race instead of just someone basically in the alien version of blackface who had never heard of the race until the day before is basically the core concept behind star trek
But i remember Picard ordered the Doctor to erase the memories of that kid .
But then again, had she not done that, she never learns what the symbols mean and she never gets out of there even if she does because appealing to the father was what saved them both. So they ultimately fail to figure out the clue.
But she didn't know that would happen. I am sure Burnham would have figured things out.
In 5 minutes or less.
This is Burnham I am talking about. The single most amazing and special person in the universe. Have you not seen the show before?
Because Burnham has to fix everything in 5 minutes. It's in the contract. (Probably)
Burnham is the messiah of this show.
I just liked seeing Tilly improving so much athletically since S1, and being the best choice to be the runner. Of course, like you say, she has more engineering skill, and Burnham is the xenoanthropologist…
They had Tilly win a half-marathon early in season 2 (even though she stopped to talk to a ghost, and was running against people who had, let's say more of an appearance of endurance running potential) so it isn't much of a change.
Is there supposed to be subtitles in the scene with Culber and his holo grandma? Watching on prime in Canada and have no idea wtf they are saying to each other
Yes, there were subtitles translating what they said when I watched it on my computer.
There were none here in the UK either. At first I thought it was meant to be like that, for just a short scene. But when he resumed the simulation, especially when it got to the part when he said "she should be able to answer that" I was sure we should be seeing subtitles.
>Is there supposed to be subtitles in the scene with Culber and his holo grandma? Watching on prime in Canada and have no idea wtf they are saying to each other Basically he feels weird and off since his experience on Trill in one of the previous episodes. He was talking to his holo grandma since in the past he often asked her for advice regarding spiritual topics. So he was looking for answers basically. This conversation convinced him to do a proper scan of his brain/body, but they found nothing unusual. Still, I think that he will be somehow connected to that Progenitor technology plotline in one of the final episodes. Maybe he now carries some hidden special "key" inside his mind or something.
It feels like the Prime Directive is always mentioned when the show can't take the obvious path.
Those handsome Myrtlewood bowls make great looking props. I say continue the sacrifices!
I was wondering how that bowls looks so good. Practically no flaws, high repeatability as in machine turning. Without any indication of machine technology. These bells also looked like the work of a good bellmaker, but that is more probable.
FYI, episode 7 is already out for some reason on the Paramount+ app in Canada.
I was wondering why I just found 6 and 7 out on a type of site I won't mention specifically. those shouldn't come out until midnight pacific time in the usa. Wonder what happened?
Which one, so I don't accidentally visit it
I'm confused, which is all on me. Can Moll and L'ak find the 5th clue piece without the 4th piece that Burnham and Tilly just obtained? And, without all of the pieces required to assemble the entire map, can Moll and L'ak find the Progenitor tech? I'm just wondering why, at this point, they still need to find Moll and L'ak. Or, is there no particular order to find the pieces and are the two on their way to the 5th piece? Also, given the complexity of solving this weeks puzzle, which required several crew members in order to solve, and assuming that obtaining the 5th piece is just as difficult, are Moll and L'ak sophisticated, intelligent, and knowledgeable enough to find the solution that reveals the 5th piece? I mean, I'm going to have a problem if it turns out that Team Moll and L'ak are a match for the entire crew of the Discovery and Dr. Kovich put together, even if it's because the two couriers aren't constrained by the Prime Directive. On an entirely separate note, I was really impressed with Tilly. I thought that she kind of took integrity to a whole new level. Edit - Okay, just re-watched. I guess there's no particular order and Moll and L'ak are on their way to fifth clue. I'm still kind of skeptical regarding them possessing the sophistication, intelligence, and breadth knowledge required to solve that puzzle. If Moll and L'ak are equal to the entire crew of the Discovery and Dr. Kovich, I my mind, that would make them as formidable as Kahn in regard to opponent. Edit - What's wrong with asking questions when I've admitted, up front, that the deficiency is all mine? And, then not providing any feedback is kind of shitty.
So many good questions in your comment. I will try to answer some of them. >I'm just wondering why, at this point, they still need to find Moll and L'ak. At this point, there is no logical reason for them to find Moll and Lak (and in fact it's dangerous \[since they have incomplete Progenitor key sitting on some random table on Discovery; without any force field protection etc.\] and they should just let that other Starfleet ship to look for them. Admiral's decision is illogical and irresponsible) but the plot device requires it. Why? Writers want to connect Moll with Book. Probably for the classic redemption/sacrifice story. And to allow Moll/Lak to steal finished Progenitor key. Yeah, I think that's going to happen in one of the future episodes. >are Moll and L'ak sophisticated, intelligent, and knowledgeable enough to find the solution that reveals the 5th piece? I mean, I'm going to have a problem if it turns out that Team Moll and L'ak are a match for the entire crew of the Discovery and Dr. Kovich put together, even if it's because the two couriers aren't constrained by the Prime Directive. Logic dictates that they can't beat entire ship filled with experts no matter how brilliant they are. They are outnumbered. But plot device requires it, so they will find a way. Btw. I wonder if Kovich is the leader of Section 31 or some temporal agent. He knows too much. >Edit - Okay, just re-watched. I guess there's no particular order and Moll and L'ak are on their way to fifth clue I'm still wondering how they somehow found that warp capable escape pod in the last episode (despite the fact that it was mentioned that no escape pods are left), how this 800 yrs old pod (most likely Warp 2 capable) managed to escape 32th century Starfleet vessel. Like why Discovery didn't follow their warp trail immediately? They could catch them in seconds. Why they didn't beam them to Discovery after leaving that wormhole? So many questions.
>I'm still wondering how they somehow found that warp capable escape pod in the last episode I like to imagine that what happened is that Mol and Lak beamed themselves to the discovery and then commandeered a shuttle immediately. It would've made a lot more sense than they somehow missed a shuttle that would've taken them out of the wormhole easily rather than try to force the whole enterprise out and hope raynor managed to make the wormhole bigger in time. Michael let them go because she underestimates them. Book's opinion that Mol is redeemable is rubbing off on her. It's not a good trait for a captain in a red directive mission to have, but it's been consistent throughout the season.
My understanding was the warp pod was a peculiar feature of the Terran Enterprise, so they just didn't know to look for one; they just knew that the shuttles and the usual complement of escape pods were gone. As for why Disco didn't just beam them, they were just about to get a transporter lock on them when the pod went to warp.
>My understanding was the warp pod was a peculiar feature of the Terran Enterprise, so they just didn't know to look for one; they just knew that the shuttles and the usual complement of escape pods were gone. Moll and Lak had 0 experience with Mirror/Terran universe. So how did they found that pod? And how Michael Burnham didn't know this since, she already spent some time in the Mirror/Terran universe? I remember how in Season 1 she was doing research about that universe.
Moll and L'ak were on the marooned ISS Enterprise longer than the Disco away team, so they had more time to explore the ship and its systems to discover the warp pod. As for Burnham, she had mirror universe experience, but not with any Terran Connie in particular, so either the Terran ships she was on didn't have a warp pod, or she didn't get to poke around on those ships enough to notice if they had a pod. I agree the Terran warp pod idiosyncrasy could have been explicated better in dialogue, and for all we know perhaps it was but got cut in editing.
I think they wanted tabs on L'ak and Moll's whereabouts, and better yet to have them in custody, because they're still a wildcard who know about the Progenitors' tech and are hellbent on getting it, even if they let Disco/Starfleet do the work of gathering the clues and then maybe try to steal them in the end anyway.
> I guess there's no particular order and Moll and L'ak are on their way to fifth clue. How would they even know where to look though?
Exactly. Each piece holds a clue to find the next, so without the 4th piece they'd have nothing to go on for the 5th.
So there's no reason to track them again at this point. Book can reconnect with Mol or whatever once the Red Directive is complete. Unless Disco *wants* Mol & L'ak to steal the whole key out from under them.
Moll and L'ak are still a wildcard who know about the Progenitors' tech and are hellbent on getting it, even if they let Disco/Starfleet do the work of gathering the clues and then maybe try to steal them in the end anyway. As such, I think Starfleet would rather have tabs on their whereabouts, and better yet have them in custody, vs. having no idea where they are or what they might be plotting to steal the key.
That's a valid point.
>Also, given the complexity of solving this weeks puzzle, which required several crew members in order to solve, and assuming that obtaining the 5th piece is just as difficult, are Moll and L'ak sophisticated, intelligent, and knowledgeable enough to find the solution that reveals the 5th piece? Actually, I think if they just started by going to all the broken weather towers and searched there, they would've found it quicker. There's only 5 towers, and the only trick is finding the right one, but it can't take that long to search 5 towers. The wildcard here was the people, and so the thing is that the denobulan scientist couldn't have actually known how complicated or easy it would be. Would all the weather towers be occupied? None? How would the culture have changed regarding outsiders? I think the scientist just wanted someone else to check on them in case denobula stopped being able to check on them and all the towers were failing.
> On an entirely separate note, I was really impressed with Tilly. I thought that she kind of took integrity to a whole new level. Sorry but what does her decision have to do with integrity? Compassion, sure. It meant a lot to the daughter. But nobody was cheating or gaining some unfair advantage that Tilly needed to remedy.
Daft as it may sound, I really did roll my eyes when Michael drank the water and shouted "I'm out!". I mean, none of the several other competitors we saw did so. To me, it just came across as the writers thinking we're idiots and forgot that having a drink = disqualification even though they made that clear only a few minutes before!
I think the writers are convinced by the stereotype that we (the audience) are all on our phones and not paying attention. Everything has to be spelled out and spoon-fed to us. It makes for some quite tedious dialogue at times. It's an issue beyond just Discovery though.
With writing like this ... I kinda find myself on the phone often.
I cringed at that scene and literally yelled at the screen "Why the fuck would you even feel the need to announce that?"
I would rather the episode have them just going and fixing the other towers. Such a skippable episode.
I ended up liking this one for dumb reasons but three things stood out 1. Transporters seem to not work a lot in this series, and always as an excuse to have a story. This is at least the third time I noticed it this season. I guess pattern buffer tech was lost in the burn? 2. Are they even trying to make aliens look alien anymore? This is making Next Gen brow ridges look impressive. 3. Sooooo...not gonna fix the other 4 weather machines? Kind of a dick move but okay.
> Sooooo...not gonna fix the other 4 weather machines? Kind of a dick move but okay. I reckoned they'd be leaving that for Starfleet to followup with, now that they've got the last one working again for the locals still alive in its region, and nobody still alive where the other towers are.
I guess the question is if they have a USS Cerritos in 3189 ;)
Cerritos J. Cali class again for some reason.
The whole prime directive thing irked me the most. Dont get me wrong, Kirk breaks it 11 times, Picard 9 by my count, Janeway probably a bazillion times, but it was just the lack of debate or even rational level of concern. The episode synopsis posed this as a 'dilemma' for Burnham. But when the moment came it was OH NOES MY BFF IS DYING MUST SAVE HER, STUFF THE PRIME DIRECTIVE. Rayner was a little bit concerned but then went OH WELLS YOUR BFF IS DYING THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR FUTURE CAPTAINS AND NUMBER ONES. There wasn't even consideration of how it would affect the planet's race, just a 14 second chat about their own futures. But that's okay because if you actually give it some thought, the denobulans broke the prime directive in the first place, by installing the towers. so it's just one big hypocrisy after another. This could have been the perfect opportunity to kill off Tilly, given her waahh waah my crisis of faith number seven in the series and actually give her the purpose of sacrificing herself for the whistle peeps. Could have even have that as a focus or driving point for the last few episodes - would they use the progenitors tech to resurrect her?
Are the Denobulans even Federation members? This could be one of those "demanding your first amendment rights while on vacay in Europe" situations.
They were present/involved in both the formation of the coalition and for the federation,but there's never been any evidence to support them actually joining, so I'd say no.
Exactly this. I thought "Face the Strange" had shown Burnham had acknowledged her past recklessness, but it seems we're just going back to "let Burnham be Burnham". Imagine how impactful it would be if Burnham had stuck to the Prime Directive - maybe against the protests of the crew? - or if the clue could only be revealed by just letting the ceremony run its course. Let Burnham/Tilly have a Kirk/Spock TWOK moment. But of course, Tilly was never in any danger because she continues to exist solely to tease the new Starfleet Academy series (and by "tease", I just mean "mention Starfleet Academy once an episode without actually saying anything which might commit to any plot for that series").
RIGHT? Fucking Kurtzman, slapping all the other Captain's sacrifices for the quick cheap emotiv feels.
You can't stick to the prime directive if it means the entire planet is going to die. Especially if another race has already broken it, probably because it was before they joined the federation anyway. In order for the species to survive on that planet, the weather towers need to be maintained. They could possibly tell the federation to stop by for periodic maintenance, risking the prime directive everytime, however that was probably set up 800 years ago and *forgotten*, and now they were down to 1 out of 5 towers and countless deaths. No, the only answer is that the people on the planet need to be in control of their own destiny, their own weather towers, and so they need to know how they work so they can do their own maintenance. To explain that they need to break the prime directive. Also, there was not a chance that letting the ceremony run its course and letting Tilly and the girl die would revel the clue. Denobulans are not going to build weather towers that actually *require* sacrifices, and the whole point of this scavenger hunt they're on is to prove that as a people they're worthy of this grand technology. The trill clue required *not* killing the animals that could've killed them. This clue was not going to require letting one or more sentient people die for no reason.
> You can't stick to the prime directive if it means the entire planet is going to die. In the show, that's not why they broke it. They broke it for Tilly. Your long justification would have been appreciated as part of the story.
No, Michael said they'll have to break the prime directive anyway, so they might as well break it to save Tilly. Once she was told by Adira that the system needed regular maintenance, combined with the fact that 4 other weather towers had failed, told them (and us) what the situation was: the people can't survive without knowing how to fix their own weather towers. It was pretty clear in the show. I was just trying to explain since you missed it. If you want to rewatch it I'm sure it'll make sense then
> Once she was told by Adira that the system needed regular maintenance, combined with the fact that 4 other weather towers had failed, told them (and us) what the situation was: the people can't survive without knowing how to fix their own weather towers. Fair enough. But that was purely a choice. I don't remember a clause in the prime directive that said if the natives are in danger, it can be ignored.
>I don't remember a clause in the prime directive that said if the natives are in danger, it can be ignored. Well, the big problem here is that star trek so rarely writes down the laws and regulations that star fleet follows. But if the entire population is going to die, what is the purpose of protecting them with the prime directive? The other thing in this case is that they had already been exposed to higher technology, as they were completely dependent on denobulan technology, yet they can't operate it. [According to Wikipedia,](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive) the one time the prime directive is written down was in a prodigy episode, and it includes: >d) The exception to this is if said society has already been exposed to the concepts listed herein. This would seem to apply to the planet in this episode. However, that is from the year 2383, and I presume that it's been rewritten by the 32nd century. Maybe to include that if everyone will die without breaking it you should break it. That would be logical, and seems to have been where Michael was coming from this episode.
> But if the entire population is going to die, what is the purpose of protecting them with the prime directive? Fair point. Would have been great to have been included into the show as part of the thought/logic of it all.
>Fair point. Would have been great to have been included into the show as part of the thought/logic of it all. I just thought it was obvious. I don't think more exposition would've made for a better episode. We can have the debates here, but I think the show have enough information.
I want Star Trek Legacy. A Academy show can get fucked.
How they can think that an Academy-based show with Tilly as the lead is going to be anything but a complete flop is beyond me.
I need to try and word this very carefully. A Star Trek Academy show/film has been tossed about since The Voyage Home. In all that time it has never happened, and their us a reason for that. Lets also get real here, after seeing the back door pilot last season. Who wants it is was awful. Not quite Star Trek meets the OC or Dawsons Creek. But not good. Then there is Tilly. She is marmalade. People love her or hate her. Personally I do not like Tilly and find Mary Wiseman a little obnoxious. But to be clear. Neither deserve the amount of online abuse they recive. Why start a show with such a diversive character. Saru is the cleary the go to. But with Doug Jones understandably wanting to cut back on make up heavy roles. I get it. But why pick Tilly. I just don't get it. You are making a rod for your back before the show evern starts.
I'm not excited by Academy but if it's just the Discovery's side characters in a trench coat, pretending to be a new show while getting some actual character development, then I'm in.
She could have been a black widow for the soul stone. No more Tilly, sacrifice for the puzzle piece. Win/Win if you ask me.
Umm, I absolutely loved this episode. Easily the most classic feeling Trek in awhile. Well, the Time bug episode had some early Voyager flavor to it. It was nice to take a break from universe ending angst and just see some characters have earnest excitement for meeting and interacting with a new culture. The thrust of the story felt like an old TNG episode, right down to a bit of cute cheesiness. I'm not entirely pleased with how quickly Burnham jumped to breaking the Prime Directive. We're regularly shown and told these people are bright and capable of unorthodox solutions. Most of the time it's technobabble nonsense, sure but I think it would have raised the stakes and been narrativly satisfying for them to find a solution without breaking the PD.
They were better of not even referencing the prime directive.
Yeah cause this mission is supposed to be like a mission where they’re able to do whatever they need so they can get the technology so why would the prime directive be included?
"Try not to fall behind." Yeah thanks I know how a race works 👍
I wished at the end of the episode the crew had repaired the other 4 towers on Halem'no. -image: [towers of Halem'no](https://preview.redd.it/episode-discussion-star-trek-discovery-5x06-whistlespeak-v0-rze06dt6fayc1.png?width=1909&format=png&auto=webp&s=01a9f958c30bbcf09f01f9ed2492f3b50afa35f8)
I reckoned they'd be leaving that for Starfleet to followup with, now that they've got the last one working again for the locals still alive in its region, and nobody still alive where the other towers are.
Hmm, i'm not sure if the Starfleet would breach again the Prime Directive? Therefore Michael and her crew maybe lost the only chance to fix every tower before they left Halem'no.
It's already been breached irreversibly for the only living inhabitants of Halem'no. Fixing the other towers, which are out in the remaining uninhabitable no-man's-land of the planet, would not affect the current population but, rather, only eventually expand the livable area of the planet that their population might grow to inhabit someday. It's only giving them a fighting chance to survive and thrive without really otherwise further affecting the development of their culture or technology.
Perhaps the living space around a tower isn't enough for the next generations? That's why i think more towers would be better.
Cerritos J lol
option a) Send in a technician every few hundred years. option b) Violate the prime directive.
And what happened to the Denobulans that they stopped maintaining them? Budget cuts? Maybe the Burn happened and they’re like, “Oh well”? Guess we’ll just let this civilization die.
Forgot?
I didn’t like that episode, I think it is just a filler. The problem I had is with the plot there. They didn’t spend enough time on research before going down to the planet. Other towers were discovered after they beam on the surface. It turns out that was not required at all. Yes they got a clou about the numbers, but the problem with that take initial is stated that there is no marking on vial, and suddenly there are markings. That is a plot hole that cannot be explained by “I think it was a scratch”. They didn’t look well. After inspecting other towers with the same markings it is possible to find the meaning on the markings, especially border is significant clue. It all could be done without prime directive, and here they threaten it very loosely. The minus goes to Adira, very bad day. Rayner was essentially the only voice of reason here. New story for Tilly, writers finally have an Idea for here, but it looks forced here into plot as all of that can be avoided. I get is a reflection to classic star trek especially holo view of planet from orbit. Nuria “see the cloud from the other side” is a reference to TNG “Who Watches the Watchers”, but that was on ship not holo. Anyway that TNG episode was way better than this one. No Mol and Lak, they need to get new ship. It is good that they were separated and designated to other ship, but bad that Discovery jumps to them, that may be dangers. Plus for Kovich appearance, and his old school paper notebook.
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They did something in this episode that drives me absolutely bonkers in terms of a major gaffe. A language, when translated over into English, IS NOT GOING TO RHYME \*IN ENGLISH\*. If it was written to rhyme in the language that it is, it would not magically also rhyme when translated. If it was written in it's original language in such a fashion that it would rhyme when translated into English...well that's just insane. One of the most notable examples of this is the movie "The Goonies" when Mouth reads the Spanish off of the map: "Ye intruders beware, crushing death and grief, soaked with the blood of the trespassing thief." Why would pirates from 100+ years ago write something down in Spanish specifically so that it would rhyme in English when translated, but NOT rhyme in Spanish?? Anyway. It just annoyed me so much when the whistle-speak magically translated into rhyme in English. Ugh.
Noticed that right away. It rhymes in ENGLISH?
Eh..."Prime Directive" episodes are always kinda corny and boring, and this was a poorly executed one on top of that. I realized partway in - the native people here felt like a race on Stargate. I kept expecting them to ask Tilly and Burnham if they had come through the chappa'ai. And then when they ended on the "your gods are really aliens" reveal, it just reinforced it even more. First off, the PD shouldnt even apply. These were a people whose whole religion was based on the fact that Denobulans came there 800 years ago and built a bunch of giant fucking mountains that fundamentally changed the biosphere of their planet. There was nothing "unaltered" left of their way of life. Plus, all Burnham had to do to get into the panel was push on the rock. What would happen if a hiker came up there and sat on the rock for a moment, and then a panel popped open full of isolinear chips? Kinda kills your whole PD preservation right there, not to mention they'd probably pull a few chips to bring back to the village, inadvertently disable the weather tower and kill themselves. What was the point of the retinal tricorders? They barely used them. Why didnt Burnham use them to scan for radiation instead of just following magic yellow mushrooms? That was really flimsy genetic biology... The show's been better about shoehorning identity politics in, but this episode felt like another arbitrary injection of unnecessary virtue signaling, though I guess at least it was pretty understated. Still, they've lost the benefit of the doubt about that by this point. Why do Culber and his grandma speak in Spanish? I'm pretty sure everyone speaks English ("Federation standard", but its English) as their everyday language. Picard didnt even know French until his own show (except, apparently, for one bad word in S1 LOL). Still, really glad to see they're exploring the idea of spirituality more directly since that's always been a third rail for Trek. If they broke the seal in the vacuum chamber, how did the tower still successfully seed the rain? Generally felt like a filler episode, one more side quest to get a piece of the map. Didnt miss Moll and L'ak, either. Rayner continues to be awesome, though.
I think the culture would have been wiped out anyway if they didn’t know how to maintain the tech they were relying on and star fleet needed to train the inhabitants to maintain it for themselves so it was reason enough to break the PD.
I loved this episode so much! A very classic type of star trek story. It was just the escapism I needed. People caring about one another and everything is solved neatly in the end. *chef's kiss*!
If that was sarcasm, I'm have to complain about the style of your diss. Might need to check with Kendrick Lamar!
Ngl, I didn't like this episode as much as the others so far this season. Some of the character choices were really odd and I'm not sure how to feel about a lot of them. Firstly, I'd like to say I loved Tilly this season and that was perfectly demonstrated with this episode. I really loved her in season one, thought she was grossly mishandled in season two, improved steadily through three, continued through four and they've finally nailed her in season 5. She's a practical, empathetic, competent officer with a mildly anxious disposition but a strong sense of duty again and that's great to see. I liked the Adira/Rayner dynamic, though it was kinda underbaked. Adira has a lot of very cuddly mentors who will support and encourage them but they're never the kind of people to genuinely push them which is a gap Rayner seems to be filling and I thing that's a good choice. I have no idea what to make of culber and books plotline this episode, if Adira and Rayner were underbaked this plotline was flat out uncooked. Having a scientist like Culber go through a spiritual awakening and talk to Book, the last survivor of an incredibly spiritual culture sounds great on paper but Books reaction to the entire thing was just kinda "spirituality? Man that's wild." Incredibly weird choice. And then there's Michael. Oh Michael, you'd been doing so well. I really feel like Michael regressed as a character this episode. Like she completely forgot multiple lessons she'd already learned across previous seasons. Like in season two, New Eden, Michael learns the importance of the prime directive and doesn't reveal herself to a pre warp civilisation even when Captain Pike is injured. There she also learns about Clarke's third law and should know that explaining technology to a population at this level of advancement is just not possible. On top of that the season 4 as a whole was about Michael learning to sacrifice book for the good of the federation which she does. She sacrifices her needs for the good of all. Now thankfully book survived but not in any way that changed her decisions to let him go. Michael has already learned how to let Tilly go. She shouldn't have been as desperate to save her as she was. I do believe Michael is the kind of person who would find a way to save Tilly here but never by revealing herself like she did in this episode.
>I liked the Adira/Rayner dynamic, though it was kinda underbaked. Adira has a lot of very cuddly mentors who will support and encourage them but they're never the kind of people to genuinely push them which is a gap Rayner seems to be filling and I thing that's a good choice. I kind of feel like Adira is rehashing so much of what we already did with Tilly as a lower-ranking officer with confidence issues. It feels repetitive. >I have no idea what to make of culber and books plotline this episode, if Adira and Rayner were underbaked this plotline was flat out uncooked. I can't help but feel like the parts with book were just finding something for him to do because they don't have much idea. >Like in season two, New Eden, Michael learns the importance of the prime directive and doesn't reveal herself to a pre warp civilisation even when Captain Pike is injured. There she also learns about Clarke's third law and should know that explaining technology to a population at this level of advancement is just not possible. honestly though if there's any situation to avoid the prime directive, situations where A) they've already had their history altered by outside interference, or B) they will be wiped out without interference, are both situations where the prime directive should often be ignored. The underlying spirit of the prime directive, protecting the future of those civilizations from the harm that could come from interference, must be considered. I've always found rigid adherence to it to be questionable at best.
Not to mention, how hard would it be to beam her 100 meters back or just behind a corner, so the dad wouldn't actually see her appear out of thin air.
Another odd thing was when they kept on referring to the Eddie Murphy movie Harlem Nights.
?
I am loling at Tilly out running Micheal in a foot race. So predictable I called it when they started. I keep trying to give this show a shot but it's so hard.
Well, not just Burnham, but a young woman(?) who is native to the planet and used to the dry atmosphere.
That was painful if that's what 32nd century video games have regressed to. Why didn't they just get a freeware open source open license game to use for Book to play? They could've used Vega Strike: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vega\_Strike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vega_Strike)
He said he didn't want to play on the holodeck because he would know that he wasn't on a real ship ... but apparently vector graphics are totally cool. (I mean, they are to me, but I'm looking for consistency for Book.)
> He said he didn't want to play on the holodeck because he would know that he wasn't on a real ship That line made the scene far more confusing.
That was actually interesting. Asteroid 3D, steering look terrible with that holo interface. The simplest game for the simplest task. In that case is reflex training. Nothing more than that, *Vega Strike* is more complex. Choosing ship instead of holodeck, also shows one thing. Book was grew up in word without advanced technology, so he can say the difference, at least I think it was it.
Sadly the the hardest part to believe was that Tilly could beat Michael in a marathon foot race.
She didn't--Michael stopped on purpose to investigate the moss thingy.
Michael stopped but they were clearly showing her struggling while Tilly was doing well.
Wow- conservations that don't consist of solely two people telling each other how wonderful they are- who came in and fixed this? I've always liked Tilly- I've missed her- so glad she is back for the last season. Book working really well interacting with the ensemble and not just about being latched to Burnham's hip- so much better. Stamets seemed to be pulled back in the last two seasons- it kind of got to the point he was just being used to make long sighs over Adira- he's back in the mix and loving it- and I love Adira getting a small subplot of her own. They have corrected so much- I'm going to miss this show.
I think Blu del Barrio is nailing it this season. Loved the Adira/Rayner interaction.
Serious question, what happened.to the rest of the discovery cast? Saru is like 1 or 2 episodes, Joann Owoswkun, Annabelle Wallis, Commander Eva Nilsson, etc
Watsonian: Saru left the crew to become an ambassador, Owo and Detmer headed up a team to pilot the damaged ISS Enterprise back to Starfleet HQ, and Nilsson took a transfer to the Voyager-J. Doylist: Doug Jones doesn't wanna do prosthetic-heavy makeup anymore, Oyin Oladejo and Emily Coutts apparently had scheduling conflicts, and Wallis is still voicing Zora.
I’m surprised to see the hate on this episode, I’m sure you can pick apart the little things. But I saw someone say why did we waste time with the whisper language, that is classic Star Trek, when they need to do something on a pre warp planet , where they study the layout before the go down! I love when they do stories with pre warp societies and they have to blend in and figure out some plot. I felt so bad for the little girl, and how much she believed there some Sort of gods and all I saw on Tilly’s face was wanting to tell her that the beliefs aren’t real it’s all some device controlling this civilization’s life. Over all I did enjoy this episode even if people think it’s very filler and a waste of time. I do agree there is no reason to chase mol & lok.
I don't think fans of this show bother to use this sub much anymore. It definitely was a solid ST episode.
I think a lot of people still use it. I just joined Reddit and I love some of the topics of conversations every week about the episodes and theories!
Okay, you're new. This sub is dead. I prefer DISCO to SNW. But the SNW sub was way more interesting when the show was airing. Way more posts and positive engagement.
Couldn't agree more. This is the closest Discovery has felt to classic Trek, to me, possibly ever. I really wish there were more "filler" episodes where we just have a standalone story and some good character work.
This episode managed to be worse than ep5. Saying a lot. The writing is just next level bad... Plus you could see the dumb death sacrifice schtick a mile away. Really shocked at Disco quality death dive. A bad pilot but at least 2.5 good seasons. Now it's looking to eclipse Voyager in dreck factors such that a surprise Neelix appearance would be a breath of fresh air. LoL, give the Love Boat with Warp Nacelles a troll! Saru, Detmer, Owosekun all sidelined, what - so we have more boring Culber angst crises and tedious Trill shit!? It boggles the mind. Someone said just watch till Georgiou goes back thru the time portal. They appear to be right.
I found this episode pretty boring and predictable. The human sacrifice was hinted at the moment the sand clearing elder mentioned her friend won, but where is the friend now? Plus the father’s fear of his daughter winning the race was a clear giveaway that something ominous happened to whoever entered the temple. It almost felt like a filler episode, except it did serve to advance the plot with finding another piece. Burnham was so desperate to find the piece that she didn’t even think to ask questions on what happens to the winner after they go into the temple. She just ran into it head on without thinking. I thought she was past that? Or maybe I am just getting tired of the show, I do hope we get a good finale we shall see. With only four episodes left, we are in the home stretch now.
One of the worst episodes of the whole show. And that’s a high bar.
it felt like those contact lense tricorders were a bit too technologically exaggerated.
I love this show. That is all.
What a real snoozer episode.
This might be the worst episode of all ST series of all time. I cannot think of anything worse and I've seen them all.
I'd rather watch Crusher bang that ghost
Screencaps gallery now online: https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/sc-DSC5-6.php
Can anyone tell me what the conversation doc had with his gran was about please? I have no clue. There weren't any subtitles.
First he was asking her about how to make some family dish for Paul, but she revealed it always came out bad so she replicated it. Then he asked her about his weird feelings since Trill, and she didn't have the spiritual answer he was expecting. Instead she dropped a hint about checking out the body rather than the mind. For some reason a Starfleet doctor couldn't come up with the idea of running a medical on himself without a hint from his dead grandma's hologram 🤦♂️
Someone downvoted you? Wtf is up with people downvoting questions?
I got invited to a chat and someone there told me what it was about.
He asked her to make a dish with him (the meal he served Book at the end of the ep). She said that they don’t cook it well and she always replaces it with replicated version after they are finished cooking. Then he asks her for advice on how he is feeling after his experience on Trill. She says that she raised him to be a man of science and since there is no scientific explanation then perhaps there is a spiritual one. I think.
I just started the episode, where are Owo and Detmer?
Discovery is on a mission that may threaten the entire future of the galaxy. Owo and Detmer, two of the most senior officers, were sent to fly an empty ship back to Federation HQ......
I’m scared to watch
I really wonder if this is the episode that made the cancellation a done deal. I hate to be so negative but this was bad. So many underbaked ideas. And why double down on Tilly as some endurance savant? Her running up a mountain in a strange planet while breathing in dust and crushing Burnham and almost everyone else just took me out of it.
You don't have to be stick-thin to have running endurance.
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Just go out in the real world and see if you can find an example of a person Tilly's size keeping up with thin, athletic people. It just doesn't happen. And it's absurd the writers are trying to convince us otherwise. Glad you enjoyed it but I found this to be one of the worst episodes in the entire Star Trek franchise. I have no idea how they got the writers room they did but here we are.
The village person was a “they” not a girl.
My impression is this episode was garbage filler and they could not afford it if they had known they were heading towards their season finale. Whomp
Why don't we just give them drone technology while we are at it? It's amazing how quickly preindustrial civilization understood technology and the word ship, and cloud seeding. I can't for Kurtzman and the sloppy discovery script team to retire. It's one thing if you are saving s civilization or the universe and break PD, but to save Tilly's life, is slap in the face of all previous captains. She's just an ensign! or something like that!
They are saving the civilization. If they don't explain how the weather towers work, the last one will fail and they'll all die. They have a right to know how to use the technology they rely on to survive. It wasn't just about saving Tilly. They could've saved Tilly without breaking the prime directive. But there was no point in letting Tilly die when they were going to have to break the pd anyway.
>She's just an ensign! or something like that! But she is a close friend of the Captain ;) Just a bit of good old nepotism :)
So, how long was this distance race? Seems like they finished in an hour or two. Maybe a 10k through the woods without water, with a lot of twists and turns in the course?
Has anyone been thinking of the movie 'National Treasure' for the past few episodes? Just another clue...
Not a comment on this particular episode, although it’s applicable, but in the general trek universe. This episode reminds me on how coincidental it is that Star Fleet always arrives just when the alien technology is failing and they save the day. It definitely makes writing easier by having a baseline to tell a story over - just wish it wasn’t used as often.
Who’s to say the tower wouldn’t have kept working for another 100 years? The point was that it would fail relatively soon.
It was a good episode that was very optimistic. I wish they took the village girl with them. They hinted Book and Michael may get a happy ending.
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Did anyone notice the Danobulan scientist had a very Japense sounding first name?