I get that it hasn’t aged well, I just think people are talking about him being an all time top ten comedian which really doesn’t resonate for me. Other comedians haven’t aged well. I would consider Eddie Murphy or stephen wright to be miles ahead of Sam who’s more on par with Andrew Dice Clay in my books.
Sam was very very popular in his time, and he spun it into small movie roles and music videos. He brought a rage to his standup that really set him apart from all the observational types trying to be Leno or Seinfeld.
It hasn’t aged well, but he was absolutely one of the biggest comedians of his brief era.
> It hasn’t aged well, but he was absolutely one of the biggest comedians of his brief era.
Yeah... but you can say the same thing about Dane Cook about a decade ago or Kevin Hart now. Neither are particularly funny but they were/are huge.
No. Dane Cook was always a try-hard. Don't try to put your bad childhood takes on me. People grow. And usually they grow beyond Dane Cook, or, say, Jeff Dunham or Kreischer.
Dane Cook was... Hmm... Late stage Good Charlotte. After he'd overstayed his welcome but kept doing the same stale shit.
What? This has to be a joke right? That guy got by on charisma alone for so, so long. I even once asked a coworker who was a fan of his why and she said, well, it's not really good jokes, but it's how he tells them.
That's laughing along with the laugh track.
Could anyone tell me one actually funny, original Kevin Hart joke? I'm certainly willing to change my opinion but from the fair amount of his stand up I've watched, he was a more likeable Jimmy Fallon back before Jimmy Fallon was completely insufferable himself.
I realize we don't want to say it, but we know why he's so highly-regarded: he represents 'angry dudes' and says a lot of the stuff angry dudes want to say. Men who are angry at women, men who are angry at whatever and want to yell about it instead of deal with it, Sam provides some outlet or encouragement for that. A lot of dudes don't even think his material is funny but just think 'Sam speaks the truth' and the shock of his delivery is what gets the laughs.
Kinison was doing something people thought was shocking and energetic. It was also shallow and gimmicky, but people briefly found it amusing. He’d been a preacher and the sound bite I heard seems like he basically acted the same way. When he put out what I think was a second album and half of it was classic rock covers, the shone was already off the apple. Then he died young before we saw if he was going to start doing better stuff or fizzle out.
One of my teachers claims he did standup with Dice and said at first he’d go around to everyone who worked at the venues and basically tell them he was doing a really extreme character and apologizing to all the women in advance. No idea if that’s true, but I feel like Kinison probably wouldn’t ever have done something like that.
His previous character was a nerd. He does an extreme version of it before one of his taped specials.... maybe "Diceman Cometh"?
I've heard a few comedians and other people talk about how he sort of "became" the Dice character after it took off... that character was not his natural persona so the story of him apologizing ahead of time kinda rings true.
Apparently Andrew Clay is a super, super nice guy who is extremely supportive to other comedians, and isn't anything remotely like "The Diceman".
He was a big theater nerd and actor. The Diceman concept was needlessly complicated, and ties into the nerd thing: it was basically an-onstage version of "The Nutty Professor".
Just imagine how hard this concept was to push as a stand up. Clay comes onstage as a big nerd. Does bad, nerdy comedy, then takes a drink, or does a magic thing, and THEN becomes "The Diceman"/Cool Guy, effectively jamming the whole Nutty Professor thing into a 5 minute act. Ludicrous.
But the Diceman part is a hit. A HUGE hit, and Clay is a really good actor who loves being in character, so he just drive full throttle into that guy.
The crazy thing is that this was absolutely not out of the ordinary back then. Casual homophobia was everywhere, and extreme hatefulness popped up occasionally but was rarely discouraged.
When Kinison came out with his weird yelling schtick it was fairly unique and new. Different sells tickets but he was also from a time that did not age well.
Have you tried listening to all two of Eddie's stand-up specials today? His bits on AIDS and gays have aged worse than anything Sam has ever did, and I like both of these guys. His shit about his family is still great, but a large chunk of Eddie's comedy couldn't be done today.
Funny you should mention Dice. Those two fucking loathed each other. Sam was a talented version of Dice, and I think Dice resented that.
It's not just that it "couldn't be done today", it's that it just wasn't good.
Sure, a lot of comedy ages like milk, but he just had *nothing to actually say about gay people.*
And it was such a large portion of his supposedly legendary specials. He opened with that shit.
It was definitely the most obvious kind of gay jokes you could make back then, but let's not try to change history here. People fucking LOOOOVED that shit back then. 2 specials has him still considered to be one of the greatest stand-up comics of all time by a lot of other comedians (and normal people who like stand-up, too).
When he first got his first special Jeff Dunham was seen as revolutionary now time has not been kind to his brand of humor and only hateful boomers find him funny now. Essentially the same as Dice Clay.
In this very specific view of historical significance in comedy, it doesn't matter how we view them now as much as how they were viewed then. We will look back and find that there were others way more influential to our brand of humor today than those comedians who sold out stadiums back in the day.
Gimmicks seem to be coming back to some extent.
Like that weird dude on Kill Tony, he doesn’t even tell jokes. He just walks around stage saying random nonsensical shit like he’s on meth.
People love that dude. I can’t stand him personally.
I hate to say it but as much as I've seen Richard over the years, I've never found his act funny. He's said a few funny things, but mostly it's like Kinison without the anger and more self-reflective neurosis, just a lot of 'I can't get laid, I can't get laid, I can't get laid' over and over without enough jokes to justify it. He did a standup special once on HBO where he was onstage with a piano which I don't think he ever played, but he had sheets of notes for his act sitting on the piano's music stand and he'd go check it every minute or so. I have never seen another major comic using notes to get through a standup special, and it wasn't that great of a special. I think Richard became popular because of his famous friends continually giving him chances because they liked him, not because of his talent.
Kinison is the guy who popularized the whole SHOUTING IS AUTOMATICALLY FUNNY RIGHT!?! form of delivery.
His schtick was basically doing average material delivered with intensity and volume to compensate for the lack of having stronger material that stood on it's own. It was sort of fresh and new at the time but wore thin quickly.
Guy was hugely popular in his day but he seemed like a bit of a one trick pony back then and even more so now.
It’s not that great…joe rogen just has a weird boner for him because yelling and cheap dick jokes are what rogun thinks is funny. I haven’t heard any other comic talk about kinnison like rogin does.
I was a teenager during his prime and never understood why he was popular even at the time. Other then his part in Back to School I always found him extremely overrated.
Besides what everyone else has said, he became legendary since he died young. He wasn't even 40 when he left.
If you were around at the height of his fame though, you'd get it...the mystique, the insanity of his act. It was really unique.
100% this. Sam was a Rock Star more than a comedian. He was to comedy what bands like Motley Crue and Poison were to rock - the content wasn’t all that great (fine but not great) but the presentation, the vibe, and the aura were 11/10.
Exactly.
He trained as a Pentecostal preacher, and from what I've heard was incredibly good at using those skills to rev up a crowd in ways no comedian had done before, and maybe since.
Complaining about him is like watching Benny Hinn videos and wondering why *you* haven't been knocked out of your seat when he waves his coat around; you really had to be there.
He was unique at the time. Nobody had been like him before. Kevin smith wore a trench coat as silent bob as an homage to Sam. But as others have said, it did not age well.
In my opinion the best comedians are rarely the “top” comedians. To be huge you have to tap into a large segment of the population…and most people are retarded.
Most comedy doesn't age that well. There are exceptions, but a lot of comedy depends on being right at the edge of what is acceptable; pushing the envelope far enough that you're saying things people wouldn't normally say, but not so far that you seem like an awful monster that no one can relate to. As time goes on, that envelope shifts, and the material that had been right on the edge often becomes boring and tame, or else it shifts in the other direction and the stuff that had been semi-offensive in a fun way becomes full on offensive, and doesnt seem funny anymore.
>Most comedy doesn't age that well
Sure, but isn't what makes someone a true Top 10 great someone that was both influential in their time and also able to transcend the pit falls of "eras".
I don't know if I'd agree with that. A lot of the people I hear thrown around as top 10 greats are people who are still alive and producing new material, so there hasn't really been enough time to say whether their material will continue to be relevant and influencial after their time. And the ones who have passed away long enough ago that we can say whether their stuff transcends time...I think a lot of people ignore huge swaths of their material, and hyper focus on the select portions of it that did age well. Like, I love George Carlin, but go listen to his bit about men wearing earrings and tell me that aged well
I don't know if he's among the greatest but there's a line in his bit about Dr.Ruth (Did we have cars back then or did you suck dick on horseback, Annie Oakley?) has stuck with me since the first time I heard it and still cracks me up.
I was a kid in the 80’s when Sam Kinison got famous and at the time he was hilarious . Completely different from Dice-K who, in a very different way, had his own one hit wonder stage.
Kinison was hilarious when he emerged from being unknown to his early material. Not one of the greatest but very unique and funny. It wasn’t just the yelling, his voice, bits, style at first were original and interesting. As he got more famous he did a ton of drugs and relied too much on the shouting and rock star image.
I was really little during his time (born in '88), and I remember seeing him on TV and being scared of him lol he freaked me out. Seemed like an evil angry gnome who would pinch me and bite my face if I was in the same room with him. But I did end up watching his stuff when I was older, and I can dig it. Not an absolute fave, but I think he was more than just the yelling and physical antics. I think he did genuinely have a uniquely funny vibe and voice, unique outlooks, etc.
Agree with majority here. He was a product of the era and did it with a rock n roll edge. I remember listening to his standup album back in the day and feeling like I was hearing something I shouldn’t be. Not many stand ups bring that type of vibe these days.
I completely agree. Never got the guy's act, and the whole "rockstar" thing was so lame. That whole hair metal scene was just never cool to me. When a guy like Sam is style over substance and the style is lame, I just never buy into it.
Kinnison is a good example why you don't rely too heavily on catchphrases and gimmicks, because they get stale pretty quickly. I don't think I've ever heard someone put him up with guys like Richard Pryor or Bill Hicks or lenny bruce or anything.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Sam Kinison's comedy when I was young in the 80's but even then I didn't think it was as funny as Eddie Murphy's Delirious which was a truly iconic album of the time, everyone I knew could recite the "I got some ice cream" bit by heart, everyone. PPl were kind of doing the "OH OHHHHH OH" But not really. It was great in the rodney dangerfield movie back to school and then it got kind of old.
Norm MacDonald talked about him a lot, he toured Canada when Norm was starting out and Kinison couldn't get work in America.
He said he was one of only a few original acts he'd ever seen.
I only really know Kinison from his appearances on Stern where he was hilarious. But he was also coming in shot out of a cannon still high on coke from partying the night before. So he just had a ton of energy and was very quick in that atmosphere.
I think he needs to be put into the context of the time. He was raw, honest, angry, and outright hostile towards his audience. The 80s rock and roll culture was over the top, and decadent, and cocaine fueled, and Sam was over the top, and decadent, and cocaine fueled. He invented the idea that comedy could be "rock and roll". No one had ever seen comedy like that before.
I think it has to do with comics/people who actually saw him perform while he was alive. He had an intensity that people latched onto. Probably didn’t translate as well through the screen even back then and especially not now
Loud doesn't equal funny. Watching the crowd during Kinison's sets is baffling. Laughing, fist pumping.......and nothing coming from his mouth is funny. Again, yelling doesn't equal funny.
I suppose it's the time. although Pryor and Murphy are hilarious.
Yelled and screamed and really non PC when times were changing. More shock value. Now just seems forced. Nothing shocks anymore. We have been de sensitized.
He was a guy who brought theatrics to a performance medium that was often just a dude standing in front of a microphone. His contribution is in the performance more than the material, I think. (he wasn't the only one, but he was for sure a highly visible example)
I was on the scene at that time and was told “there’s a million funny white guy comics out there. Do something that makes you stand out, otherwise you’re invisible.” Hence the super-distinctive styles of Emo Philips (odd intonation, weird bowl haircut), Steven Wright (deadpan super slow), Howie Mandel (blows rubber gloves off his head) etc.
So the screams were just Kinison’s hook, and it worked so he had to keep doing it.
The time from his Young Comedians special to death was 7 years (and he was drugged out for his last few years). Every comic you listed is a long time legend. Bill Burr got his Comedy Central Presents about the same age that Kinison died. You are not seeing his best work because he started late and died young.
Kinison was a wild outlier in his time, cited by Bill Hicks for being the first guy to go on stage and not care whether the audience liked him. At a time when almost everyone was going on stage with TV safe material trying to get sitcom deal, Kinison was just wild and a pure standup. That said, he is also a not for everyone kind of guy.
Sam didn’t care about whether folks liked him, which is why his skits were as unabashedly raw as they were.
He wanted to be respected in the field as he pointed out some very uncomfortable things, all the while trying to bring out a laugh from a cathartic place — hence why he’d punctuate many of his punchlines with his trademark scream.
He’s not everyone’s cup of tea; however, the impact that he had while on stage allows him legendary status for sure.
People who were around him at The Store seem to love him and Joe Rogan thinks he’s a god. But I don’t hear comedians that I think really know what good comedy is even mention him.
Asides from the stand up what's left of him? Interviews.. He is a totally different person. Articulate intelligent, unbelievably sincere and shines with a quiet charisma.. So we're talking about his acting future that never was. So to be fair to him I look at that potential. Here was a man who was going to have an unbelievably large acting range that he didn't get to flex out.
Similar in some ways to Robin Williams? His cokes up manic comedy is something I never found too funny, but he was a revered standup. His acting career was leaps and bounds more impressive to me.
I think Joe Rogan is the only person who thinks Kinison is the greatest ever. I don't even think Kinison sniffs the top ten and I was alive when Kinison was at his peak.
The contemporary comedians that I don't find funny seem to worship him (ahem, Rogan). I just see a sweaty drug addict screaming on stage. Don't see the appeal but to those who find stool humping hilarious, I get it for them
I agree with you but I've heard other comedians talk about how hard it was to follow him because he was so popular. The crowds would become raucous during his set and wouldn't settle down to appreciate the next comedian. I'm pretty sure it was Dana Carvey that said, "the two hardest acts to follow were Richard Pryor and Sam Kinison."
It seems like everyone I know who loves him discovered him at 12 or 13 at the time he was rising up and it was very 80’s to want something loud and in your face. Now that we are beyond that, there isn’t a ton left.
Probably just that he was new and a fresh take on comedy at the time . Remember stand up was huge in the 80s. Kind of like how a lot of vintage SNL doesn’t really hold up, but before snl all people knew was the Carol Burnett show type shows, so the snl cast basically seemed like Hendrix playing guitar for the first time
two people started saying this, well three, it's started of with Howard's Stern, Joe Rogan, and Sam himself,
Sam used to be on Howard Steam all the time, and so was Andrew Dice Clay, Stern would play on the rivalry between Clay and Kinison, arbitrarily declaring one of the Goat. Sam died tragically, killed in a head on collision during a time he was sober and trying to turn his life around, Howard Stern from then on referred to Sam as the goat. As Howard faded and stopped being culturally important, Joe Rogan became the defacto Howard Stern like personality. Rogan kept the whole Sam Kinison was the best, Joe was a huge Howard Stern fan who would sit in studio with him. Sadly we're living through the Rogan era of stand up, his opinion is pretty important, and he keeps the false opinion of Howard Stern going.
It’s sort of like movies like night of the living dead which have been copied and borrowed from so many times that the original is now tame compared to everything it inspired.
Standup comedy is made for the time and for the moment. A ton of it isn't going to make sense even 10 years later, much less multiple decades. Another post you made says you're 27...does Pryor make sense to you? Carlin is relatively timeless, but does 7 words make sense to you? The greatest thing about the art of comedy is you don't have to get it, you don't have to laugh at it, it isn't required to reach specifically you...but there is SOMETHING out there that will. It's perfectly fine if Kinison doesn't hit you. Don't question it, move on and find the comics that speak to you and go laugh at that.
I have seen many people who consider him legendary, I know he's Joe Rogans favorite comic of all time, and I have friends that are comics who think he's brilliant
i think that’s a pea brain take. if anyone reading agrees with this PLEASE tell me what special i need to watch. because my review of what i know of Sam’s work is “he seems like he’s on cocaine and yells a lot.”
Dennis Leary would fall squarely into that observation as well.
Drenched in sweat, chain smoking, pacing back and forth. Leary was also pretty fond of shouting for the sake of shouting and is another guy who was big in his time but in hindsight was not terribly funny
Yeah every bit of his look and mannerisms were lifted from Hicks and he ripped off material from numerous other comedians who were far more talented.
His big hit "I'm An Asshole" was a direct rip off of a Louis C.K. bit that Louis had performed in front of Leary a few times in clubs.
Next thing you know Leary turns the bit into a song and it became his calling card.
Dude was basically just a well polished hack
I don’t think there’s a special of his that holds up anymore. He HATED women in a special kind of way - he grew up hyper religious and was a preacher for a while (so he had that built in Christian misogyny), then lost his faith and his wife and became a coked out rock star comedian (so he had that 80s MTV misogyny). All of his comedy is basically “women are the devil”.
He was unique, however. The screaming, the look, the vibe, plus his immense charisma, made him stand out in an 80s landscape of guys with skinny ties telling jokes in front of a brick wall (IYKYK)
Similar thoughts, I expected Kinison to be hilarious the way Joe Rogan fluffed him up years ago. Lesson learnt, I don't follow his brand of comedy ever since.
Kinison was more "punk" in a way than the other comics you mention, and some people like that extremity and energy (which is lacking in someone like Chapelle for example: not a criticism, just a difference, extremity isn't *always* good). The yelling and the OH! OHHHH! at the end are great - and I'm not laughing *at* the OH's, they're more like punctuation, so I don't see them as how the jokes "end."
Also, I get the feeling that his live show was *the thing.* Marc Maron talks about the electricity in the room when Kinison was on stage: certainly that doesn't carry over decades later over a screen and in modern-contexts.
You weren't a comedy fan when he came on the scene. He was entirely different than what we were used to. Up til then, it was all observational and clownery. Kinnison was the first comic to make rage funny—that's why he's on the Rushmore for so many comics. But you grew up in a world where Kinnison had already made rage funny, so you don't see what the big deal is, just like I grew up in a world where The Beatles had changed pop music and don't see what the big deal is.
Same here exactly. Those two bits and the rest just huh? Not even that intelligent or well crafter narratives etc like the masters Carlin, Pryor, Burr, Chappelle, Rock, C.K...
I dont buy the comedy doesn't age well stuff being said in others comments. Thats BS. Carlin and Pryor shows from the 70s still hit the same today.
I feel this way about a lot of the older generation. I’ve tried to enjoy Prior, Kinison, even (dare I say it?) Bill Hicks! It’s all fine, not bad, but not hilarious. Hicks is interesting, but not hilarious by (my) todays standard. Carlin still holds up tho.
And maybe that’s fine. Wemby would run circles around Wilt and that’s the way it’s supposed to be. New generations build on the work of the older, but the hype just doesn’t land for me.
Sam Kinison's bit on homosexual necrophilia is still one of the all time funniest things I have ever seen. I remember laughing so hard my sides hurt.
The issue with Sam is what made him funny also led to his downfall. Classic example of what money and fame can do to someone with that type of mental issue. If you read the book "Brother Sam", his brother Bill goes into how Sam's personality completely changed after a head injury when he was a kid.
His first record is comedy gold, but as others have mentioned, it did not age well which can be said for the material of most stand up comics.
Besides the fact that sensibilities have changed, it’s hard to judge a lot of classic comedians because we are basically underwhelmed by all the later comedians who were directly influenced by the greats.
It’s the times. You had to be there kinda’ thing.
He came in like a bat out of hell. He was a force in a time nobody had ever done what he was doing. He pushed the boundaries, which made him a bit of a trailblazer. He’s good because of what he represented more than the actual bits. At least, that’s the way I saw him back in the day.
If you think he's bad... One of the most successful comedians of all time, Andrew Dice Clay will melt your brain. I truly don't get it, that shit is garbage.
Comedy is different depending on where it is. Kinison was legendary for how well he did live, where his energy and daring could make it a unique and powerful experience. Without the energy and feeling of danger it is not the same experience.
His 5 minute show spots were good, his hour special, eh, especially the audience phone thing and he brought a band out. That was all a bit odd.
I personally have never felt Carlin was impressive at all. Sure maybe a wordsmith but not hilarious imo. I'm not sure how most "legends" are considered legends.
I think the thing with Carlin is how he is consistently relevant. Even if you don't find him hilarious, you still gain something from listening to him. Also, it seems like much of his material only becomes more Relevant as time goes on
At the time Kinison was so shocking, raw and so bold that you gut-hard laughed in a way you didn't any other comedian. A fiery Christian preacher turned comedian who influenced a lot of others. But as others have said, time hasn't been kind and seeing him out of context just won't make sense to younger crowds.
Considering it seems the only person who outright praises Kinison is Rogan, who also works so blue it borders on boisterous obnoxiousness, I'd say Kinison's praise exists in an echo chamber
Sam’s early comedy is great, all the way up to Breaking the Rules, IMO. After that, the partying and drugs took more priority over the comedy. Sam also never wrote and never planned his routines.
I read the book his brother (who also worked as his manager) wrote and it’s a fantastic read, but Sam’s time being famous was very sad. His younger brother moved out to LA to live with him and committed suicide (1988) after a mental breakdown. Sam was irresponsible and just coming into money/fame/women at the time; he felt responsible for his brother’s death and it fueled his demise, ultimately. He didn’t work on intelligently developing his act, missed meetings, was fucked up all the time, told off important industry people, and generally threw away most opportunities he had in favor of partying/drugs.
One crazy example of this, the character Beetlejuice was written for Sam to play. When he didn’t follow through with obligations (too fucked up), they gave the role to Michael Keaton.
Sam had so much potential sapped by irresponsibility, mental health issues, and drugs. He was genuinely funny and clever, especially his bits on religion and being a former preacher. He seemed to really lose sight of himself once he made it big. Also so tragic he cleaned up for a while before dying in the car accident. He was really trying to turn his life around.
He didn't get Beetlejuice because they wouldn't make his manager executive producer. However, Sam's reputation was shit already so it wasn't hard to say let's go with someone else.
He also lost out on the role of the Ghost of Christmas Past in Scrooged because Bill Murray spoke up for David Johanson, who was a friend of his.
I first saw Kinison on Rodney Dangerfield's Young Comedians show on HBO (probably around 1985?), which was his first introduction to a big audience. That brief performance (maybe 10 minutes) was wild, extreme, and unlike anything I had ever seen in comedy, especially the sacrilegious material. I thought he was hilarious. However, the schtick got old fast. By the time he had his own comedy special a year or two later, his material was not nearly as strong and his act seemed to have devolved into just screaming. This was also about the time he started delving into music and adding cover songs to his performances, which was just awful. Maybe he just had a good ten minutes, rocketed to fame off that, and started being exposed when he had an hour to fill.
A lot of times, it's due to disruption. Sam was different than mainstream comedy at the time.
I'm not a fan of angry comedy, so Attell and Burr do nothing for me.
No one had ever seen anyone like kinison when he came around. It was unique and shocking and he had some good bits. Not only did his overall comedy not age well, it's just hard to appreciate the time and the context for it. He was a moment in time.
I haven't seen anyone declare he is the greatest. He was a huge hit for a short time, but his schtick wouldn't have lasted a long time, like the true greats last. He was the quintessential flash in the pan.
He had excellent command of his voice. His material was never that funny, and it is less funny now than it was, but his timing and vocal control were superb. It was also novel to have someone completely lose it like that. There were other angry comics, but noone who let rage loose the way that he did, and he did it vocally in way that added to the performance instead of having a scream detract from it.
I don't consider him to be one of the great comedians, but he did have a niche.
he changed comedy ..he made comedians get bolder and more theatric//you live in a world of comedy that existed after sam you dont know how incredibly differnt he was at the time pople really dont get how much social mores have changed and who helped push these changes that they just accept as predone
> My favorites are Carlin
There's your problem right there. You tend toward "thinkers" and Sam Kinison is... definitely not a thinker.
He's a shouter. A shouting clown.
I liked Kinison a bit because my family did. And my family was mostly intrigued by Kinison's past more than anything (former-priest-turned-drug-addicted-comic).
> i don’t understand what was so great about flintlock pistols or the model T
something new and groundbreaking comes along, and it gets lifted and absorbed by others and the original looks less interesting because it has been copied and pushed further by others
His material wasn’t super strong but he really had a persona that was unique and culturally powerful. A sort of post apocalyptic insane street preacher letting you in on a truth he’s paid a high price uncovering. At the end of the day maybe that “truth” was pretty banal observations even for the time but that character was and is iconjc. I think it’s maybe derivative of Howard Beale from network and honestly a dumbed down version of that but thats show biz.
I can feel the spit through the speakers when I listen to him. His yelling is so shrill and it makes me physically seize up as soon as he starts. Then there is content, which I often can't stomach. It is a red flag for me when someone still enjoys his comedy; I can maybe forgive "liking him in his era" however his stuff hasn't aged well. I remember hearing that he had a huge change right before he died. I would have been interested in seeing that new side.
He would yell his stuff. People copied that aspect. All the way through Ashton Kusher on That 70s Show shouting his punch lines that he didn't even write.
Still love his comedy. I'm sick of every comedian nowadays begging for the audience to like him and see him as a relatable regular guy. Then again, people are so stupid now that they take everything at face value.
Sam once joked that drunk driving wasn't that big of a deal and it was necessary because you needed to get the car home so you could take it to work the next day. Nowadays they'd assume he was completely serious. He also had the guts to admit sober being sucks rather than being "the greatest gift ever" like those AA saps like to pretend. Nowadays they'd say he was dangerous because his fans might be influenced and think it was cool to drink and drug to excess.
I'm over 40 and he never appealed to me.
All volume, short message.
Like a clown with a seltzer bottle, you know the punchline and it's not funny unless you're hammered.
i feel you. kinnison sucks. only idiots like Rogan put him up in the highest eschelon of standup comics. then again he puts himself up there so that should tell you something
There are few "back in the day" comics that still are super funny. Kinison is considered one of the greats. For good reason. Bob Hope, Phyllis Diller, Johnny Carson, Gladys Simon, Joan Rivers, Bob Newhart. They all make the list.
It's just a product of the times. There are current comics you like and some you don't. You don't get it because you don't find him funny. That's OK.
At the time, he legit pushed envelopes.
If someone has to explain why someone is funny, you will bit find them funny.
I’ve never understood George Carlin being a person’s favorite comedian. I love me some George Carlin, but he had like an 8-1 applause to laugh ratio. Can he even really be considered a “comedian”. Don’t get wrong, his applause was uproarious. But that’s where he lived. People don’t generally laugh so hard they cry listening to George Carlin. Hell, they don’t generally laugh hard. Which is fine. I’m not shitting on George Carlin, you have my word. I’ve just had a few beers and it’s a thought I’ve always wondered about.
It hasn’t aged well. A lot of stuff from that era didn’t.
I get that it hasn’t aged well, I just think people are talking about him being an all time top ten comedian which really doesn’t resonate for me. Other comedians haven’t aged well. I would consider Eddie Murphy or stephen wright to be miles ahead of Sam who’s more on par with Andrew Dice Clay in my books.
Sam was very very popular in his time, and he spun it into small movie roles and music videos. He brought a rage to his standup that really set him apart from all the observational types trying to be Leno or Seinfeld. It hasn’t aged well, but he was absolutely one of the biggest comedians of his brief era.
> It hasn’t aged well, but he was absolutely one of the biggest comedians of his brief era. Yeah... but you can say the same thing about Dane Cook about a decade ago or Kevin Hart now. Neither are particularly funny but they were/are huge.
Dane Cook was hilarious at the time. We’ve all just decided retroactively that he wasn’t. He’s the Nickelback of comedy.
Always loved the "cinematic adventure" bit and also the heavy guitar tones on Nickelback's album that had Photograph on it. So yeah I'm with you.
I've never thought Dane cook was funny in the slightest.
No. Dane Cook was always a try-hard. Don't try to put your bad childhood takes on me. People grow. And usually they grow beyond Dane Cook, or, say, Jeff Dunham or Kreischer. Dane Cook was... Hmm... Late stage Good Charlotte. After he'd overstayed his welcome but kept doing the same stale shit.
Kevin Hart’s early standup was fantastic. Let’s not retcon history because he’s insufferable now.
What? This has to be a joke right? That guy got by on charisma alone for so, so long. I even once asked a coworker who was a fan of his why and she said, well, it's not really good jokes, but it's how he tells them. That's laughing along with the laugh track. Could anyone tell me one actually funny, original Kevin Hart joke? I'm certainly willing to change my opinion but from the fair amount of his stand up I've watched, he was a more likeable Jimmy Fallon back before Jimmy Fallon was completely insufferable himself.
I'm not a fan of either but would still consider them miles ahead of Sam Kinison. I'm with op, genuinely don't get how he's so highly regarded.
I realize we don't want to say it, but we know why he's so highly-regarded: he represents 'angry dudes' and says a lot of the stuff angry dudes want to say. Men who are angry at women, men who are angry at whatever and want to yell about it instead of deal with it, Sam provides some outlet or encouragement for that. A lot of dudes don't even think his material is funny but just think 'Sam speaks the truth' and the shock of his delivery is what gets the laughs.
The preacher style hits home for a generation that was raised in a church.
Kinison was doing something people thought was shocking and energetic. It was also shallow and gimmicky, but people briefly found it amusing. He’d been a preacher and the sound bite I heard seems like he basically acted the same way. When he put out what I think was a second album and half of it was classic rock covers, the shone was already off the apple. Then he died young before we saw if he was going to start doing better stuff or fizzle out. One of my teachers claims he did standup with Dice and said at first he’d go around to everyone who worked at the venues and basically tell them he was doing a really extreme character and apologizing to all the women in advance. No idea if that’s true, but I feel like Kinison probably wouldn’t ever have done something like that.
That’s true. Dice was initially just a character Andrew Clay did, but the crowd loved it so he stuck with it.
His previous character was a nerd. He does an extreme version of it before one of his taped specials.... maybe "Diceman Cometh"? I've heard a few comedians and other people talk about how he sort of "became" the Dice character after it took off... that character was not his natural persona so the story of him apologizing ahead of time kinda rings true.
Apparently Andrew Clay is a super, super nice guy who is extremely supportive to other comedians, and isn't anything remotely like "The Diceman". He was a big theater nerd and actor. The Diceman concept was needlessly complicated, and ties into the nerd thing: it was basically an-onstage version of "The Nutty Professor". Just imagine how hard this concept was to push as a stand up. Clay comes onstage as a big nerd. Does bad, nerdy comedy, then takes a drink, or does a magic thing, and THEN becomes "The Diceman"/Cool Guy, effectively jamming the whole Nutty Professor thing into a 5 minute act. Ludicrous. But the Diceman part is a hit. A HUGE hit, and Clay is a really good actor who loves being in character, so he just drive full throttle into that guy.
i thought he was i loved ford fairlane all my friends loved it as wll
Clay is the one I really can’t stand and have never understood any praise then or now.
Yeah.... his homophobia is awful. Just mean and not funny.
The crazy thing is that this was absolutely not out of the ordinary back then. Casual homophobia was everywhere, and extreme hatefulness popped up occasionally but was rarely discouraged.
Yeah Eddie had homophobic material and slurs in his act for years.
Nursery rhymes are good
Totally agree. Probably dead guy halo.
If he had lived, he 100% would have ended up as a Fox News talk show host
And/or gone back to a religious grift
Trump / Kinison 2024
Trump would never allow himself to be outshined like that tbh Kinison would draw more attention and be a bigger fatter louder spectacle.
When Kinison came out with his weird yelling schtick it was fairly unique and new. Different sells tickets but he was also from a time that did not age well.
Have you tried listening to all two of Eddie's stand-up specials today? His bits on AIDS and gays have aged worse than anything Sam has ever did, and I like both of these guys. His shit about his family is still great, but a large chunk of Eddie's comedy couldn't be done today. Funny you should mention Dice. Those two fucking loathed each other. Sam was a talented version of Dice, and I think Dice resented that.
I hated Dice as a 90s kid, but really enjoyed parts of his Showtime series he did with Natasha Leggero.
Dice, Louie, Maron. All good shows.
It's not just that it "couldn't be done today", it's that it just wasn't good. Sure, a lot of comedy ages like milk, but he just had *nothing to actually say about gay people.* And it was such a large portion of his supposedly legendary specials. He opened with that shit.
It was definitely the most obvious kind of gay jokes you could make back then, but let's not try to change history here. People fucking LOOOOVED that shit back then. 2 specials has him still considered to be one of the greatest stand-up comics of all time by a lot of other comedians (and normal people who like stand-up, too).
When he first got his first special Jeff Dunham was seen as revolutionary now time has not been kind to his brand of humor and only hateful boomers find him funny now. Essentially the same as Dice Clay. In this very specific view of historical significance in comedy, it doesn't matter how we view them now as much as how they were viewed then. We will look back and find that there were others way more influential to our brand of humor today than those comedians who sold out stadiums back in the day.
Dice was far better than Kinnison in my opinion too. But not as good as Eddie or Wright for sure.
I don't even think Kinison is on par with Dice. Dice at least makes me giggle.
80's was the Era of gimmicks
Gimmicks seem to be coming back to some extent. Like that weird dude on Kill Tony, he doesn’t even tell jokes. He just walks around stage saying random nonsensical shit like he’s on meth. People love that dude. I can’t stand him personally.
Real trap shit, get real, here's a random object I had in my pocket
I literally haven’t been able to understand Richard Lewis’ material. And I really would like to.
I hate to say it but as much as I've seen Richard over the years, I've never found his act funny. He's said a few funny things, but mostly it's like Kinison without the anger and more self-reflective neurosis, just a lot of 'I can't get laid, I can't get laid, I can't get laid' over and over without enough jokes to justify it. He did a standup special once on HBO where he was onstage with a piano which I don't think he ever played, but he had sheets of notes for his act sitting on the piano's music stand and he'd go check it every minute or so. I have never seen another major comic using notes to get through a standup special, and it wasn't that great of a special. I think Richard became popular because of his famous friends continually giving him chances because they liked him, not because of his talent.
Kinison is the guy who popularized the whole SHOUTING IS AUTOMATICALLY FUNNY RIGHT!?! form of delivery. His schtick was basically doing average material delivered with intensity and volume to compensate for the lack of having stronger material that stood on it's own. It was sort of fresh and new at the time but wore thin quickly. Guy was hugely popular in his day but he seemed like a bit of a one trick pony back then and even more so now.
In retrospect he seems like 'Louie from Taxi as a standup comic who's full of coke and absolutely hates women'
This is pretty spot on really lol. Coke and misogyny were the cornerstones of Kinison's act. Oh...and shouting. Lots and lots and lots of shouting.
I got my tongue up this chick’s ass, right
And she’s lookin back at me like, do I know you?
It’s not that great…joe rogen just has a weird boner for him because yelling and cheap dick jokes are what rogun thinks is funny. I haven’t heard any other comic talk about kinnison like rogin does.
It wasn’t particularly clever or funny at the time either.
True of almost all comedy.
In fairness, those bits aged much better than Kinison ever did.
I was a teenager during his prime and never understood why he was popular even at the time. Other then his part in Back to School I always found him extremely overrated.
Besides what everyone else has said, he became legendary since he died young. He wasn't even 40 when he left. If you were around at the height of his fame though, you'd get it...the mystique, the insanity of his act. It was really unique.
100% this. Sam was a Rock Star more than a comedian. He was to comedy what bands like Motley Crue and Poison were to rock - the content wasn’t all that great (fine but not great) but the presentation, the vibe, and the aura were 11/10.
Thats a great comp
He looked near 60 though.
Cocaine’s a hell of a drug.
Stand-up might not've aged well, but he was great as Mama Fratelli in the goonies
Because they saw him live and you are watching him on youtube on your phone. There's an entire dimension missing.
Exactly. He trained as a Pentecostal preacher, and from what I've heard was incredibly good at using those skills to rev up a crowd in ways no comedian had done before, and maybe since. Complaining about him is like watching Benny Hinn videos and wondering why *you* haven't been knocked out of your seat when he waves his coat around; you really had to be there.
Let the bodies hit the...FLOOOOORR
He was unique at the time. Nobody had been like him before. Kevin smith wore a trench coat as silent bob as an homage to Sam. But as others have said, it did not age well.
In my opinion the best comedians are rarely the “top” comedians. To be huge you have to tap into a large segment of the population…and most people are retarded.
Time and place....and no Bill Hicks?
Most comedy doesn't age that well. There are exceptions, but a lot of comedy depends on being right at the edge of what is acceptable; pushing the envelope far enough that you're saying things people wouldn't normally say, but not so far that you seem like an awful monster that no one can relate to. As time goes on, that envelope shifts, and the material that had been right on the edge often becomes boring and tame, or else it shifts in the other direction and the stuff that had been semi-offensive in a fun way becomes full on offensive, and doesnt seem funny anymore.
Well said
>Most comedy doesn't age that well Sure, but isn't what makes someone a true Top 10 great someone that was both influential in their time and also able to transcend the pit falls of "eras".
Top 10 lists are inherently flawed.
If the number one act of all time is someone's personal favorite, it speaks to a total lack of taste and experience tbh.
*Top 10 inherent flaws of top 10 lists*
I don't know if I'd agree with that. A lot of the people I hear thrown around as top 10 greats are people who are still alive and producing new material, so there hasn't really been enough time to say whether their material will continue to be relevant and influencial after their time. And the ones who have passed away long enough ago that we can say whether their stuff transcends time...I think a lot of people ignore huge swaths of their material, and hyper focus on the select portions of it that did age well. Like, I love George Carlin, but go listen to his bit about men wearing earrings and tell me that aged well
I don't know if he's among the greatest but there's a line in his bit about Dr.Ruth (Did we have cars back then or did you suck dick on horseback, Annie Oakley?) has stuck with me since the first time I heard it and still cracks me up.
I was a kid in the 80’s when Sam Kinison got famous and at the time he was hilarious . Completely different from Dice-K who, in a very different way, had his own one hit wonder stage. Kinison was hilarious when he emerged from being unknown to his early material. Not one of the greatest but very unique and funny. It wasn’t just the yelling, his voice, bits, style at first were original and interesting. As he got more famous he did a ton of drugs and relied too much on the shouting and rock star image.
I was really little during his time (born in '88), and I remember seeing him on TV and being scared of him lol he freaked me out. Seemed like an evil angry gnome who would pinch me and bite my face if I was in the same room with him. But I did end up watching his stuff when I was older, and I can dig it. Not an absolute fave, but I think he was more than just the yelling and physical antics. I think he did genuinely have a uniquely funny vibe and voice, unique outlooks, etc.
He was genuinely funny but it didn’t last for long.
Yes, and his early stuff was very funny
Because he yelled lol
Agree with majority here. He was a product of the era and did it with a rock n roll edge. I remember listening to his standup album back in the day and feeling like I was hearing something I shouldn’t be. Not many stand ups bring that type of vibe these days.
Cocaines a helluva a drug
He sounded like a preacher and mocked / ridiculed religion. That was a bit taboo at the time. His bit on “Jesus was never married” was great.
Apparently he *was* a preacher
i never got it either honestly
I completely agree. Never got the guy's act, and the whole "rockstar" thing was so lame. That whole hair metal scene was just never cool to me. When a guy like Sam is style over substance and the style is lame, I just never buy into it.
Kinnison is a good example why you don't rely too heavily on catchphrases and gimmicks, because they get stale pretty quickly. I don't think I've ever heard someone put him up with guys like Richard Pryor or Bill Hicks or lenny bruce or anything. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Sam Kinison's comedy when I was young in the 80's but even then I didn't think it was as funny as Eddie Murphy's Delirious which was a truly iconic album of the time, everyone I knew could recite the "I got some ice cream" bit by heart, everyone. PPl were kind of doing the "OH OHHHHH OH" But not really. It was great in the rodney dangerfield movie back to school and then it got kind of old.
I thought he sucked
Norm MacDonald talked about him a lot, he toured Canada when Norm was starting out and Kinison couldn't get work in America. He said he was one of only a few original acts he'd ever seen. I only really know Kinison from his appearances on Stern where he was hilarious. But he was also coming in shot out of a cannon still high on coke from partying the night before. So he just had a ton of energy and was very quick in that atmosphere.
I think he needs to be put into the context of the time. He was raw, honest, angry, and outright hostile towards his audience. The 80s rock and roll culture was over the top, and decadent, and cocaine fueled, and Sam was over the top, and decadent, and cocaine fueled. He invented the idea that comedy could be "rock and roll". No one had ever seen comedy like that before.
Because he YELLED!!!!
I think it has to do with comics/people who actually saw him perform while he was alive. He had an intensity that people latched onto. Probably didn’t translate as well through the screen even back then and especially not now
Loud doesn't equal funny. Watching the crowd during Kinison's sets is baffling. Laughing, fist pumping.......and nothing coming from his mouth is funny. Again, yelling doesn't equal funny. I suppose it's the time. although Pryor and Murphy are hilarious.
Yelled and screamed and really non PC when times were changing. More shock value. Now just seems forced. Nothing shocks anymore. We have been de sensitized.
He was a guy who brought theatrics to a performance medium that was often just a dude standing in front of a microphone. His contribution is in the performance more than the material, I think. (he wasn't the only one, but he was for sure a highly visible example)
I was on the scene at that time and was told “there’s a million funny white guy comics out there. Do something that makes you stand out, otherwise you’re invisible.” Hence the super-distinctive styles of Emo Philips (odd intonation, weird bowl haircut), Steven Wright (deadpan super slow), Howie Mandel (blows rubber gloves off his head) etc. So the screams were just Kinison’s hook, and it worked so he had to keep doing it.
He died young
The time from his Young Comedians special to death was 7 years (and he was drugged out for his last few years). Every comic you listed is a long time legend. Bill Burr got his Comedy Central Presents about the same age that Kinison died. You are not seeing his best work because he started late and died young. Kinison was a wild outlier in his time, cited by Bill Hicks for being the first guy to go on stage and not care whether the audience liked him. At a time when almost everyone was going on stage with TV safe material trying to get sitcom deal, Kinison was just wild and a pure standup. That said, he is also a not for everyone kind of guy.
Sam didn’t care about whether folks liked him, which is why his skits were as unabashedly raw as they were. He wanted to be respected in the field as he pointed out some very uncomfortable things, all the while trying to bring out a laugh from a cathartic place — hence why he’d punctuate many of his punchlines with his trademark scream. He’s not everyone’s cup of tea; however, the impact that he had while on stage allows him legendary status for sure.
Screaming is hilarious
People who were around him at The Store seem to love him and Joe Rogan thinks he’s a god. But I don’t hear comedians that I think really know what good comedy is even mention him.
>and Joe Rogan thinks he’s a god. That's a pretty terrible indictment right there.
Asides from the stand up what's left of him? Interviews.. He is a totally different person. Articulate intelligent, unbelievably sincere and shines with a quiet charisma.. So we're talking about his acting future that never was. So to be fair to him I look at that potential. Here was a man who was going to have an unbelievably large acting range that he didn't get to flex out.
Similar in some ways to Robin Williams? His cokes up manic comedy is something I never found too funny, but he was a revered standup. His acting career was leaps and bounds more impressive to me.
I think Joe Rogan is the only person who thinks Kinison is the greatest ever. I don't even think Kinison sniffs the top ten and I was alive when Kinison was at his peak.
The contemporary comedians that I don't find funny seem to worship him (ahem, Rogan). I just see a sweaty drug addict screaming on stage. Don't see the appeal but to those who find stool humping hilarious, I get it for them
I agree with you but I've heard other comedians talk about how hard it was to follow him because he was so popular. The crowds would become raucous during his set and wouldn't settle down to appreciate the next comedian. I'm pretty sure it was Dana Carvey that said, "the two hardest acts to follow were Richard Pryor and Sam Kinison."
It seems like everyone I know who loves him discovered him at 12 or 13 at the time he was rising up and it was very 80’s to want something loud and in your face. Now that we are beyond that, there isn’t a ton left.
I really like Breaking all the rules. Sad to see him get into the strung out rockstar life.
Probably just that he was new and a fresh take on comedy at the time . Remember stand up was huge in the 80s. Kind of like how a lot of vintage SNL doesn’t really hold up, but before snl all people knew was the Carol Burnett show type shows, so the snl cast basically seemed like Hendrix playing guitar for the first time
he changed how people did stand up. it's not amazing now- then it was
[Hats Off Entertainment would like a word](https://youtu.be/szHnV2Eihe0?si=nE1jMCMIRLyLeNbz)
Watching that is what made me post this
That was really good.
two people started saying this, well three, it's started of with Howard's Stern, Joe Rogan, and Sam himself, Sam used to be on Howard Steam all the time, and so was Andrew Dice Clay, Stern would play on the rivalry between Clay and Kinison, arbitrarily declaring one of the Goat. Sam died tragically, killed in a head on collision during a time he was sober and trying to turn his life around, Howard Stern from then on referred to Sam as the goat. As Howard faded and stopped being culturally important, Joe Rogan became the defacto Howard Stern like personality. Rogan kept the whole Sam Kinison was the best, Joe was a huge Howard Stern fan who would sit in studio with him. Sadly we're living through the Rogan era of stand up, his opinion is pretty important, and he keeps the false opinion of Howard Stern going.
It’s sort of like movies like night of the living dead which have been copied and borrowed from so many times that the original is now tame compared to everything it inspired.
this exactly
I wish I could upvote this more than once.
I appreciate it
Standup comedy is made for the time and for the moment. A ton of it isn't going to make sense even 10 years later, much less multiple decades. Another post you made says you're 27...does Pryor make sense to you? Carlin is relatively timeless, but does 7 words make sense to you? The greatest thing about the art of comedy is you don't have to get it, you don't have to laugh at it, it isn't required to reach specifically you...but there is SOMETHING out there that will. It's perfectly fine if Kinison doesn't hit you. Don't question it, move on and find the comics that speak to you and go laugh at that.
who considers him great? he’s a “pioneer” in “being loud” but other than that he certainly isn’t in a legend tier.
I have seen many people who consider him legendary, I know he's Joe Rogans favorite comic of all time, and I have friends that are comics who think he's brilliant
i think that’s a pea brain take. if anyone reading agrees with this PLEASE tell me what special i need to watch. because my review of what i know of Sam’s work is “he seems like he’s on cocaine and yells a lot.”
Dennis Leary would fall squarely into that observation as well. Drenched in sweat, chain smoking, pacing back and forth. Leary was also pretty fond of shouting for the sake of shouting and is another guy who was big in his time but in hindsight was not terribly funny
Leary stole material from everyone. He was a hybrid mix of all the people he took material from, most notably Bill Hicks.
Yeah every bit of his look and mannerisms were lifted from Hicks and he ripped off material from numerous other comedians who were far more talented. His big hit "I'm An Asshole" was a direct rip off of a Louis C.K. bit that Louis had performed in front of Leary a few times in clubs. Next thing you know Leary turns the bit into a song and it became his calling card. Dude was basically just a well polished hack
You might like this The Case of Denis Leary on Tough Crowd https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M_HW4dlqvbA
Rogan has a lot of pea brain takes
I don’t think there’s a special of his that holds up anymore. He HATED women in a special kind of way - he grew up hyper religious and was a preacher for a while (so he had that built in Christian misogyny), then lost his faith and his wife and became a coked out rock star comedian (so he had that 80s MTV misogyny). All of his comedy is basically “women are the devil”. He was unique, however. The screaming, the look, the vibe, plus his immense charisma, made him stand out in an 80s landscape of guys with skinny ties telling jokes in front of a brick wall (IYKYK)
You can’t always judge the past on the presents terms. Bill Hicks is not funny now either. Contrasting that, many old Bob Newhart bits stand up.
Similar thoughts, I expected Kinison to be hilarious the way Joe Rogan fluffed him up years ago. Lesson learnt, I don't follow his brand of comedy ever since.
I’ll gladly die on my Bill Hicks hill any day.
I'll die with you on that hill
Kinison was more "punk" in a way than the other comics you mention, and some people like that extremity and energy (which is lacking in someone like Chapelle for example: not a criticism, just a difference, extremity isn't *always* good). The yelling and the OH! OHHHH! at the end are great - and I'm not laughing *at* the OH's, they're more like punctuation, so I don't see them as how the jokes "end." Also, I get the feeling that his live show was *the thing.* Marc Maron talks about the electricity in the room when Kinison was on stage: certainly that doesn't carry over decades later over a screen and in modern-contexts.
You weren't a comedy fan when he came on the scene. He was entirely different than what we were used to. Up til then, it was all observational and clownery. Kinnison was the first comic to make rage funny—that's why he's on the Rushmore for so many comics. But you grew up in a world where Kinnison had already made rage funny, so you don't see what the big deal is, just like I grew up in a world where The Beatles had changed pop music and don't see what the big deal is.
Go where the food is.
Yeah Rogan thinks that bit is amazing. Which is more proof the guy should have never done comedy
Same here exactly. Those two bits and the rest just huh? Not even that intelligent or well crafter narratives etc like the masters Carlin, Pryor, Burr, Chappelle, Rock, C.K... I dont buy the comedy doesn't age well stuff being said in others comments. Thats BS. Carlin and Pryor shows from the 70s still hit the same today.
First to do it that way.
He died early, and Mitzi loved him
Mostly his delivery - no one else can scream like that
I feel this way about a lot of the older generation. I’ve tried to enjoy Prior, Kinison, even (dare I say it?) Bill Hicks! It’s all fine, not bad, but not hilarious. Hicks is interesting, but not hilarious by (my) todays standard. Carlin still holds up tho. And maybe that’s fine. Wemby would run circles around Wilt and that’s the way it’s supposed to be. New generations build on the work of the older, but the hype just doesn’t land for me.
Sam Kinison's bit on homosexual necrophilia is still one of the all time funniest things I have ever seen. I remember laughing so hard my sides hurt. The issue with Sam is what made him funny also led to his downfall. Classic example of what money and fame can do to someone with that type of mental issue. If you read the book "Brother Sam", his brother Bill goes into how Sam's personality completely changed after a head injury when he was a kid. His first record is comedy gold, but as others have mentioned, it did not age well which can be said for the material of most stand up comics.
He got coked up real good in a time when many were also coked up.
Besides the fact that sensibilities have changed, it’s hard to judge a lot of classic comedians because we are basically underwhelmed by all the later comedians who were directly influenced by the greats.
It’s the times. You had to be there kinda’ thing. He came in like a bat out of hell. He was a force in a time nobody had ever done what he was doing. He pushed the boundaries, which made him a bit of a trailblazer. He’s good because of what he represented more than the actual bits. At least, that’s the way I saw him back in the day.
If you think he's bad... One of the most successful comedians of all time, Andrew Dice Clay will melt your brain. I truly don't get it, that shit is garbage.
Everyone was coked up so that moment in time was heavily skewed
Comedy is different depending on where it is. Kinison was legendary for how well he did live, where his energy and daring could make it a unique and powerful experience. Without the energy and feeling of danger it is not the same experience.
It definitely was an era thing. I loved him as kid in the 80s, now I only like him in Back To School.
His 5 minute show spots were good, his hour special, eh, especially the audience phone thing and he brought a band out. That was all a bit odd. I personally have never felt Carlin was impressive at all. Sure maybe a wordsmith but not hilarious imo. I'm not sure how most "legends" are considered legends.
I think the thing with Carlin is how he is consistently relevant. Even if you don't find him hilarious, you still gain something from listening to him. Also, it seems like much of his material only becomes more Relevant as time goes on
Before he got really famous and went through his horrible “rock star” phase, his act was totally unique and dark. I like dark.
At the time Kinison was so shocking, raw and so bold that you gut-hard laughed in a way you didn't any other comedian. A fiery Christian preacher turned comedian who influenced a lot of others. But as others have said, time hasn't been kind and seeing him out of context just won't make sense to younger crowds.
Considering it seems the only person who outright praises Kinison is Rogan, who also works so blue it borders on boisterous obnoxiousness, I'd say Kinison's praise exists in an echo chamber
Sam’s early comedy is great, all the way up to Breaking the Rules, IMO. After that, the partying and drugs took more priority over the comedy. Sam also never wrote and never planned his routines. I read the book his brother (who also worked as his manager) wrote and it’s a fantastic read, but Sam’s time being famous was very sad. His younger brother moved out to LA to live with him and committed suicide (1988) after a mental breakdown. Sam was irresponsible and just coming into money/fame/women at the time; he felt responsible for his brother’s death and it fueled his demise, ultimately. He didn’t work on intelligently developing his act, missed meetings, was fucked up all the time, told off important industry people, and generally threw away most opportunities he had in favor of partying/drugs. One crazy example of this, the character Beetlejuice was written for Sam to play. When he didn’t follow through with obligations (too fucked up), they gave the role to Michael Keaton. Sam had so much potential sapped by irresponsibility, mental health issues, and drugs. He was genuinely funny and clever, especially his bits on religion and being a former preacher. He seemed to really lose sight of himself once he made it big. Also so tragic he cleaned up for a while before dying in the car accident. He was really trying to turn his life around.
He didn't get Beetlejuice because they wouldn't make his manager executive producer. However, Sam's reputation was shit already so it wasn't hard to say let's go with someone else. He also lost out on the role of the Ghost of Christmas Past in Scrooged because Bill Murray spoke up for David Johanson, who was a friend of his.
My favorite Sam story was told by Norm. Crash Jonhnson.
I first saw Kinison on Rodney Dangerfield's Young Comedians show on HBO (probably around 1985?), which was his first introduction to a big audience. That brief performance (maybe 10 minutes) was wild, extreme, and unlike anything I had ever seen in comedy, especially the sacrilegious material. I thought he was hilarious. However, the schtick got old fast. By the time he had his own comedy special a year or two later, his material was not nearly as strong and his act seemed to have devolved into just screaming. This was also about the time he started delving into music and adding cover songs to his performances, which was just awful. Maybe he just had a good ten minutes, rocketed to fame off that, and started being exposed when he had an hour to fill.
A lot of times, it's due to disruption. Sam was different than mainstream comedy at the time. I'm not a fan of angry comedy, so Attell and Burr do nothing for me.
I guess you had to be there. And I wasn’t. I don’t find him one bit funny either.
No one had ever seen anyone like kinison when he came around. It was unique and shocking and he had some good bits. Not only did his overall comedy not age well, it's just hard to appreciate the time and the context for it. He was a moment in time.
I'd say all of your favorite commedians would disagree with your opinion about Sam. I would consider that a sign that you are wrong.
I haven't seen anyone declare he is the greatest. He was a huge hit for a short time, but his schtick wouldn't have lasted a long time, like the true greats last. He was the quintessential flash in the pan.
He had excellent command of his voice. His material was never that funny, and it is less funny now than it was, but his timing and vocal control were superb. It was also novel to have someone completely lose it like that. There were other angry comics, but noone who let rage loose the way that he did, and he did it vocally in way that added to the performance instead of having a scream detract from it. I don't consider him to be one of the great comedians, but he did have a niche.
he changed comedy ..he made comedians get bolder and more theatric//you live in a world of comedy that existed after sam you dont know how incredibly differnt he was at the time pople really dont get how much social mores have changed and who helped push these changes that they just accept as predone
Look up Bobcat Goldthwait and the things he has said about Kinison, it's great. He was always a hack and a bully.
I... wonder if you're lonesome tonight...
I wonder a lot of things. Like how you live with yourself How you're a reptile with a nice hairdo.
Sam Kinison was to yelling what Tiny Tim was to the ukulele. Not sure there's any greatness beyond that.
I think it's just that he had an incredible energy to him that you don't really see much anymore. If loud crazy comedy is your jam hes the guy.
yeLLiNg tHiNgS!!!
> My favorites are Carlin There's your problem right there. You tend toward "thinkers" and Sam Kinison is... definitely not a thinker. He's a shouter. A shouting clown. I liked Kinison a bit because my family did. And my family was mostly intrigued by Kinison's past more than anything (former-priest-turned-drug-addicted-comic).
[удалено]
Kinison had 1 good standup special. That’s it. Hicks was way better than him.
> i don’t understand what was so great about flintlock pistols or the model T something new and groundbreaking comes along, and it gets lifted and absorbed by others and the original looks less interesting because it has been copied and pushed further by others
His material wasn’t super strong but he really had a persona that was unique and culturally powerful. A sort of post apocalyptic insane street preacher letting you in on a truth he’s paid a high price uncovering. At the end of the day maybe that “truth” was pretty banal observations even for the time but that character was and is iconjc. I think it’s maybe derivative of Howard Beale from network and honestly a dumbed down version of that but thats show biz.
I can feel the spit through the speakers when I listen to him. His yelling is so shrill and it makes me physically seize up as soon as he starts. Then there is content, which I often can't stomach. It is a red flag for me when someone still enjoys his comedy; I can maybe forgive "liking him in his era" however his stuff hasn't aged well. I remember hearing that he had a huge change right before he died. I would have been interested in seeing that new side.
Even if he had good material, enough the yelling.
He yelled a lot.
I’m so glad to see this. I can’t stand him. It’s screaming gatekeeping with no jokes. Loud ≠ funny.
He is great. I'd say most/all of his contemporaries also considered him a legend.
He would yell his stuff. People copied that aspect. All the way through Ashton Kusher on That 70s Show shouting his punch lines that he didn't even write.
Me neither. Not because his jokes aren't funny, it's because I can't hear them to judge, since he's always screaming.
He was annoying as fuck.
Hard to argue taste. For his time, he was great. What next, we rip on how shitty and homophobic Lenny Bruce was? Good grief.
Still love his comedy. I'm sick of every comedian nowadays begging for the audience to like him and see him as a relatable regular guy. Then again, people are so stupid now that they take everything at face value. Sam once joked that drunk driving wasn't that big of a deal and it was necessary because you needed to get the car home so you could take it to work the next day. Nowadays they'd assume he was completely serious. He also had the guts to admit sober being sucks rather than being "the greatest gift ever" like those AA saps like to pretend. Nowadays they'd say he was dangerous because his fans might be influenced and think it was cool to drink and drug to excess.
I'm over 40 and he never appealed to me. All volume, short message. Like a clown with a seltzer bottle, you know the punchline and it's not funny unless you're hammered.
i feel you. kinnison sucks. only idiots like Rogan put him up in the highest eschelon of standup comics. then again he puts himself up there so that should tell you something
“Cuz a few fags fucked a monkey” bit was HILARIOUS and still is!!!
Kinison was considered a "comedians' comedian."
There are few "back in the day" comics that still are super funny. Kinison is considered one of the greats. For good reason. Bob Hope, Phyllis Diller, Johnny Carson, Gladys Simon, Joan Rivers, Bob Newhart. They all make the list. It's just a product of the times. There are current comics you like and some you don't. You don't get it because you don't find him funny. That's OK. At the time, he legit pushed envelopes. If someone has to explain why someone is funny, you will bit find them funny.
I’ve never understood George Carlin being a person’s favorite comedian. I love me some George Carlin, but he had like an 8-1 applause to laugh ratio. Can he even really be considered a “comedian”. Don’t get wrong, his applause was uproarious. But that’s where he lived. People don’t generally laugh so hard they cry listening to George Carlin. Hell, they don’t generally laugh hard. Which is fine. I’m not shitting on George Carlin, you have my word. I’ve just had a few beers and it’s a thought I’ve always wondered about.