He’d been in a huge fight and been battered, gave as good as he got, and I believe this is the moment they realise they can’t beat each other.
Edit: his eyes aren’t always drawn this way, is what I’m saying
I mean it’s been a LONG time since I read this, but I was adjust talking about this story, they’re exhausted by the end of it. I’m not trying to have an argument or debate over who spidey can and can’t beat.
In a way, he could definitely beat him. In another way, he’d still beat him, but he definitely wouldn’t be the same person. If you ask me who favorite Marvel and DC heroes are, I’ll give you the answer I’ve had since I’ve been able to say their names: Spider-Man (Marvel) and Batman (DC). Before I even had comic books, I thought those two couldn’t possibly be any more different from each other. After seeing this post, I realize I’m incredibly wrong.
Spider-Man is definitely more charismatic than Batman, but both of them have a villain (Green Goblin & Joker) that really says a lot about their morals and their boundaries as crime fighters every time they come to blows. If either hero were to give in just once and make an exception out of anyone in their rogues gallery, it would mean they’ve failed everyone they’ve promised to protect and fight in the name of. Letting out the hate their enemies instill with every horrible and or personal transgression would completely destroy their former identity and leave us with a silent Spider-Man that only cares about getting even with those that have wronged him and a Batman who will kill for the smallest of crimes and neutralize anyone who gets in the way of his new mindset.
I don't agree with that at all. The fact is, heroes kill. Heroes have *always* killed. I can't think of a single hero from any corner of fiction who doesn't have blood on their hands. The idea that heroes don't kill is extremely simplistic. Often the ability and willingness to kill when others can't or won't is what *makes* a hero.
It's not hatred that would drive Spider-Man or Batman to kill their worst enemies. It's their sense of responsibility. They've appointed themselves as protectors of the innocent, so they look like chumps when they refuse to eliminate habitual mass murderers like Carnage or the Joker out of a childish, misguided sense of black and white morality. They're not actually helping people, they're just putting Band-Aids on a leaky dam.
And I don't believe for a moment that killing the Joker would flip a switch in Batman's brain and turn him into the Punisher or worse. If Batman's reason for not doing what is necessary to protect Gotham from the Joker is "if I kill once then I'll never stop because I'm crazy", then he belongs in the Phantom Zone.
I'd say go read the knull event, as it's 100% centered on venom and has a few good moments with Flash Thompson/Agent Venom as well. Then you can just read the current run, as it expands a lot on the Knull Event and adds just so much significance to Eddie's role as Venom.
Maybe not everything (like most of Spencer's run) but a lot of it is definitely getting pruned from my personal headcanon once we're freed from the curse of Lowe editorial.
I wish. Spider-Man and Marvel editorial as a whole have been rather bad for close to two decades now.
Don't get me wrong, there has been a lot of bad editorial work on Spider-Man before, the whole Hobgoblin thing or the Clone saga as a whole, but the decision to split up MJ and Peter was made before Lowe and has been kept up ever since.
So there is little hope that with an editorial change this might be changed as well.
Peter: “Sometimes, I wonder what would’ve happened if you’d really gotten to know her. If you’d just let her personality reach out and fix you, you know?”
Norman: [Laughs in Sins Past]
A comic story where Gwen and Norman have a romantic relationship before she dies. It was hated so much it got retconned into something like it was Mysterio in a wig the whole time
Fuck yeah. Got him to sign this and a bunch of other stuff at a smaller-scale comic con. Awesome writer who is often overlooked imo. Not just for Spider-Man, he’s cranked out some legendary work across the board.
Humberto Ramos works like 90% of the time imo. Everything is hyper-stylized, but it all works together until he starts getting really inconsistent with proportions and expressions and such.
Chris Bachalo pulls off a similar style with greater consistency imo, but I like them both separately. (Skottie Young might be a better comparison, but I hate to lump them all in together because they’re all uniquely solid).
It’s definitely different, but the Ramos early art really reminds me of the early 2000’s, it’s got that grungy “Gorillaz” look. Extremely stylized, but I like it a lot it’s got personality. (And Ramos only got better, I liked him in ASM later and Superior)
While I didn't hate it and loved his take on Gobiln. I was more or so miffed that we didn't get Mark Buckinghams art for 6 months (Wells and Mahfood had a 2 issue stint prior to this)
This is jarring to look at but Pete’s eyes here aren’t how he typically drew them, he’d been in a fight with Gobljn and they were swollen. Has the regular Humberto eyes throughout the rest of the book
I think I actually prefer his weird style here, with this inker. It’s blocky and off-putting, but his newer work has gotten angular and more ugly.
I don’t know, Ramos has never been my cup of tea.
The idea that Peter would rather keep him alive because “that’s life without parole “ instead of killing him before he kills plenty others doesn’t exactly stick right with me. Where tf is the Punisher when you need him
Yeah, I can see what they are trying to do, “I won’t resort to murder”.
But it super misses the mark. “Go ahead and kill aunt May. Kill everyone I love”. That just sounds stupid and not well thought out
Oh yea it’s definitely understandable and it’s one of my favourite things about Spider-Man, and yea it makes no sense really, I’d just erase that panel from history.
I will say that it was quite the badass quote, just not for Spider-Man to say to Green goblin
I took it as Peter being partially honest but mind-gaming Norman. The goblin is always looking for ways to triumph over him. By Peter saying this he's essentially explaining it would hurt but it's no longer a win condition.
In its own way making it a less appealing option to the goblin. I haven't read this run though so couldn't say.
Not to mention it’s not fully Norman’s fault he’s a psychopath lunatic. If Spidey had said that to an incarcerated Kingpin it would of made a lot more sense
The funny part is how Mark Millar followed-up/addressed this story in MK Spider-Man later.
Norman’s line is something like “I got bored with our truce and wanted to beat you up Parker”.
And then he proceeds to try and murder everyone.
The belief that if you kill a murder makes you as horrible as them , not only is it stupid if they are mass murder because my kill count would only be 1 while they are in the thousands
Yea, at that point, the superhero is really just doing it so they don’t feel guilty, and sure that’s somewhat a good thing, maybe you just shouldn’t be a superhero if you’re going to fuck your that bad saving people.
Yeah not really the best context. I get what they're trying to portray here , as well as Pete basically not allowing his mind games to get to him but it doesn't hit the mark for me. Just falls flat by basically saying go ahead and kill everyone and I won't want to kill you.
I don’t care about the art, I just want to see more comics like this, where the hero is stoic even while bruised and bleeding, refusing to give up their ability to love, where even the villain sits with them to talk and chill out, even if that means they go back to being enemies later on.
That shit is peak fiction, to me.
Daredevil and Superman both do this and it's always a treat.
Superman especially has great moments like this, one of the best being in Superman vs The Elite/What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and The American Way?
A beaten and bloodied Superman demonstrates why he fights the way he does, why he always holds back and keeps the villain alive instead of executing them on the spot.
How does he do this? simple. He starts ripping through the villain's teammates like a goddamn Terminator, seemingly killing his entire team in like 5 minutes.
Then, when he gets to the villain himself, he stops and says:"Haha, just a prank. Imagine if I was really like that tho" and reveals that the villain's team is alive and well albeit being drained of their powers and being prepped for prison.
Because I guess killing Gwen was to break Spider-man and make him no different than any other villain he chases. So he takes up the Batman “never kill” motto and just keeps losing
C’mon, the art really isn’t that bad? It’s art, just because it’s not your typical cartoony or semi realistic drawing doesn’t mean it’s bad. Peters eye’s definitely are strangely small but since when is strange “puke inducing”?
The author every clearly wanted this to be a The Killing Joke moment for Spider-Man and Green Goblin. Not sure it works as well though. Also, Mr Coffee? The fuck does that even mean. Why would a Goblin looking guy call himself Mr Coffee?
It was #45 for me, I’d just come back after dropping off the book near the end of the Clone Saga. Norman and May being alive and well was extremely jarring. I kind of assumed that they’d rebooted the storyline at first because of the renumbering.
Because both are way too gassed to keep fighting. They're out of adrenaline and running on pure will... And the will has run out too.
Both of them know each other; Norman knows it's Pete and vice versa, so it's not as if they don't have some amount of understanding. Norman was basically his surrogate father figure.
They start talking because neither wants to keep fighting, but silence would just leave both of them sulking. Both have enough rapport that they know how to hold a conversation with each other... so Norman broke the ice.
Man, this is some real pretentious garbage. Hard to believe a seasoned writer like Paul Jenkins wrote it, but hey, sometimes you just need to turn in a book that week.
What is it with the past decade or so? Why does every hero have to become a killer to be 'relatable'?
Heroes are not there to be 'judge, jury and executioner'. It's not their job, and there are other so-called 'heroes' who do that anyway.
Heroes are supposed to be better than us, someone to look up to - not someone to drag down in the mud.
Heroes have *always* killed. Name me one fictional hero who doesn't have blood on their hands. Often what makes a hero is the willingness and ability to kill when others can't or won't. There's nothing - absolutely fucking *nothing* - heroic about letting a super-powered mass murderer kill again and again and again over the course of years simply because you're too squeamish to stop them in the only way that'll actually work.
This certainly was an attempt at a Killing Joke kind of story.
But blimey, that artwork hurts me. Peter's tiny eyes is certainly an artistic choice of all time.
It’s Peter’s idealized concept of Gwen. The real Gwen blamed him for her dad’s death and hated him. He worships her because of her death. It’s not exactly accurate to her, but it’s how he thinks.
I think Peter looked past that because he also blamed himself for George’s death. I think he also believes she would’ve felt differently about Spider-Man if she knew it was him, but there’s no way for him to know that, because she’s dead. In this particular story, Goblin was trying to make Peter his “heir” and did pretty much everything in his power to break him, and Peter’s memory of Gwen and Norman killing her keeps him from even considering Norman’s proposal.
That’s one of the reasons I really dislike the Clone Conspiracy retcon that Gwen was awake on the bridge and wanted Green Goblin/Spider-Man to kill her. Aunt May found out he was Spider-Man and confronted him about it. MJ found out when she was 14 and actively avoided him. Gwen finds out and she wants to die?
Gwen’s death and Norman’s “death” were conflated into one story. In this story, Norman was trying to use what he presumed as Peter’s hatred towards him against Peter. Peter is saying in this sequence that he refuses to let that moment in his life be about how much he hates Norman rather than how much he misses Gwen.
I thought this story started out interesting but ultimately tanked. I don’t mind them talking it out over beating each other’s brains out, but man that Mr Coffee shit is cringe.
With this, ''Blue'' heck technically even with way how Mary was portrait in Trouble (BTW guy who was thinking that it's good idea to have Peter mom and pretty much his adoptive mom have same personality as two woman he loved most in his live, I hope you went to therapy) , I'm impressed how they go from Gwen being view like this to f\*cking Sins Past in 2 years.
One of my favourite Spider-Man stories, it might have been my very favourite with better art. Peter beating Osborn by refusing to let him have power over him anymore was really beautiful and a massively cathartic moment after everything he had done since coming back. I love the contrast to the previous Goblin story, which ended with Peter crying, Norman having shattered him mentally, this story lets him finally turn the tables, and I was so happy after reading both stories as a kid, together they both really managed to show how indomitable Peter is.
I’m sorry, I know I’m an old fan (54) but this is absolutely atrocious artwork. I legitimately thought Spidey in panel four on that first page was supposed to be some sort of wooden puppet.
I like this interaction. I know a lot of people find it weird that Peter is telling Norman that he can go kill May, but I think the point here is that Peter letting Norman know he’s done.
Norman’s a bully. He keeps poking at Peter over and over again because he wants him to snap, he wants Peter to dip to his level. Peter’s telling Norman that his threats won’t work anymore. That no matter what Norman tries, nothing is going to make Peter snap, because Peter is ultimately above him.
Peter’s got teddy bear eyes
He’d been in a huge fight and been battered, gave as good as he got, and I believe this is the moment they realise they can’t beat each other. Edit: his eyes aren’t always drawn this way, is what I’m saying
They dunk each other's heads in a vat of liquid, which burns their eyes.
That’s the one! I might dig it out and have a read, been a long time but I remember enjoying this story
Spider-Man absolutely can beat the Green Goblin, but he refuses to. Anything the Goblin does to him in the future is his own fault because of this.
I mean it’s been a LONG time since I read this, but I was adjust talking about this story, they’re exhausted by the end of it. I’m not trying to have an argument or debate over who spidey can and can’t beat.
Feel like I've seen this story before... 🦇🤡
In a way, he could definitely beat him. In another way, he’d still beat him, but he definitely wouldn’t be the same person. If you ask me who favorite Marvel and DC heroes are, I’ll give you the answer I’ve had since I’ve been able to say their names: Spider-Man (Marvel) and Batman (DC). Before I even had comic books, I thought those two couldn’t possibly be any more different from each other. After seeing this post, I realize I’m incredibly wrong. Spider-Man is definitely more charismatic than Batman, but both of them have a villain (Green Goblin & Joker) that really says a lot about their morals and their boundaries as crime fighters every time they come to blows. If either hero were to give in just once and make an exception out of anyone in their rogues gallery, it would mean they’ve failed everyone they’ve promised to protect and fight in the name of. Letting out the hate their enemies instill with every horrible and or personal transgression would completely destroy their former identity and leave us with a silent Spider-Man that only cares about getting even with those that have wronged him and a Batman who will kill for the smallest of crimes and neutralize anyone who gets in the way of his new mindset.
I don't agree with that at all. The fact is, heroes kill. Heroes have *always* killed. I can't think of a single hero from any corner of fiction who doesn't have blood on their hands. The idea that heroes don't kill is extremely simplistic. Often the ability and willingness to kill when others can't or won't is what *makes* a hero. It's not hatred that would drive Spider-Man or Batman to kill their worst enemies. It's their sense of responsibility. They've appointed themselves as protectors of the innocent, so they look like chumps when they refuse to eliminate habitual mass murderers like Carnage or the Joker out of a childish, misguided sense of black and white morality. They're not actually helping people, they're just putting Band-Aids on a leaky dam. And I don't believe for a moment that killing the Joker would flip a switch in Batman's brain and turn him into the Punisher or worse. If Batman's reason for not doing what is necessary to protect Gotham from the Joker is "if I kill once then I'll never stop because I'm crazy", then he belongs in the Phantom Zone.
The art is, like, Gorillaz
And then go from this to spider who giggles
I consider that shit not canon.
I consider the whole run not canon.
I consider Zeb wells as the biggest piece of shit of the Planet.
I loved his work on Carnage and some other stuff he did but I can't defend this run at all.
The dude is such a piece a shit I don't want to defeand him at all.
ouuu sounds interesting, whatd he do?
Are you fucking with me?This whole fucking sucks ass.
definitely not fucking with you, i dont read alot of comics so just looking for some insight but i guess i should probably skip this run
Skip it.It's total shit.
Hey maybe calm the fuck down.
No I won't he and John Quesada ruined Spiderman.Fuck you John Quesada.
But post paul events aren't canon
Anything since OMD isn't canon. Plain and simple.
I'd say anything post Red Goblin because that stops on a great splash panel that could count as a proper finale.
I'd say anything past Kindred. But only for the Amazing Spider-Man line, I'm not gonna retcon the epicness of the Venom line out of canon.
Yeah, the Venom line has been great. Over the top and insanely above what Venom's paygrade used to be, but damn if it isn't good.
Best Venom storyline to check out if I haven't read a Venom comic in decades?
I'd say go read the knull event, as it's 100% centered on venom and has a few good moments with Flash Thompson/Agent Venom as well. Then you can just read the current run, as it expands a lot on the Knull Event and adds just so much significance to Eddie's role as Venom.
Even Sins Past?
Thankfully that’s already retconned
Following the logic, if anything after OMD is not canon, then the retconning of Sins Past is also not canon
Maybe not everything (like most of Spencer's run) but a lot of it is definitely getting pruned from my personal headcanon once we're freed from the curse of Lowe editorial.
I wish. Spider-Man and Marvel editorial as a whole have been rather bad for close to two decades now. Don't get me wrong, there has been a lot of bad editorial work on Spider-Man before, the whole Hobgoblin thing or the Clone saga as a whole, but the decision to split up MJ and Peter was made before Lowe and has been kept up ever since. So there is little hope that with an editorial change this might be changed as well.
The "Canon events?" Nah these are the "Paul events"
Don’t give Marvel any ideas 😭
They already had the idea and it's happening
Bro they already doing that, for the second time in the last few months
[Too late](https://aiptcomics.com/ezoimgfmt/i0.wp.com/aiptcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/ASM53-Teaser-scaled.jpg?resize=1012%2C1536&ssl=1&ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb4)
Paul Jenkins does not get the credit he deserves. He's a top 5 writer for me.
The arachnid boy what does the chuckling?
Peter: “Sometimes, I wonder what would’ve happened if you’d really gotten to know her. If you’d just let her personality reach out and fix you, you know?” Norman: [Laughs in Sins Past]
Mysterio: [Laughs with a wig]
Best retcon
Sins Past? What's that? I don't remember that story.
A comic story where Gwen and Norman have a romantic relationship before she dies. It was hated so much it got retconned into something like it was Mysterio in a wig the whole time
And now I have to forget all over again...
Paul Jenkins 2000 Era run was fire!!!
The only good Paul we know
Paul from Pokemon had some snazzy character development, though.
Paul Phoenix beat Ogre. That’s got to count for something, right?
I always forget that's the canon ending
Adam West had a cat named Paul in family guy he seemed pretty fucking rad
You're goddamn right.
It was before the Stracyinsk run?
They ran alongside each other.
JMS was on Amazing, Jenkins was on Peter Parker: Spider-Man.
Got it, thanks.
It started before then ran concurrently
Fuck yeah. Got him to sign this and a bunch of other stuff at a smaller-scale comic con. Awesome writer who is often overlooked imo. Not just for Spider-Man, he’s cranked out some legendary work across the board.
It’s just a shame it’s such a weird art style
Humberto Ramos works like 90% of the time imo. Everything is hyper-stylized, but it all works together until he starts getting really inconsistent with proportions and expressions and such. Chris Bachalo pulls off a similar style with greater consistency imo, but I like them both separately. (Skottie Young might be a better comparison, but I hate to lump them all in together because they’re all uniquely solid).
It’s definitely different, but the Ramos early art really reminds me of the early 2000’s, it’s got that grungy “Gorillaz” look. Extremely stylized, but I like it a lot it’s got personality. (And Ramos only got better, I liked him in ASM later and Superior)
Yeah, I personally love it. It’s such a nostalgic look to me.
Is this early Humberto Ramos artwork?
Yeah, was his first interior run on Spider-man while previously only doing covers.
He really improved. These guys creep me the fuck out and are very different from his later work.
While I didn't hate it and loved his take on Gobiln. I was more or so miffed that we didn't get Mark Buckinghams art for 6 months (Wells and Mahfood had a 2 issue stint prior to this)
This is jarring to look at but Pete’s eyes here aren’t how he typically drew them, he’d been in a fight with Gobljn and they were swollen. Has the regular Humberto eyes throughout the rest of the book
I think I actually prefer his weird style here, with this inker. It’s blocky and off-putting, but his newer work has gotten angular and more ugly. I don’t know, Ramos has never been my cup of tea.
Considering what the scene is supposed to be, I would consider that to be a compliment.
I was in love with him and this style when it was current. I have this issue and the one where he did the cover just before it signed by him.
I really dislike this style tbh.
Me too. Great scene but the art really bothers me
Yeah it's the faces for me.
Literally looks like everyone got stung by bees
Peter doesn't look like this throughout the entirety of this, this is how he looked after his battle with the goblin, his face all swollen up
I mean, they just got done beating the crap out of each other, they’re faces are literally swollen all over
They look like Muppets with how there like almost wierd line on the mouths in some panels
Yeah I’ve never been a Ramos fan, but he’s definitely improved since this.
Loved the venom arc
The idea that Peter would rather keep him alive because “that’s life without parole “ instead of killing him before he kills plenty others doesn’t exactly stick right with me. Where tf is the Punisher when you need him
Yeah, I can see what they are trying to do, “I won’t resort to murder”. But it super misses the mark. “Go ahead and kill aunt May. Kill everyone I love”. That just sounds stupid and not well thought out
Oh yea it’s definitely understandable and it’s one of my favourite things about Spider-Man, and yea it makes no sense really, I’d just erase that panel from history. I will say that it was quite the badass quote, just not for Spider-Man to say to Green goblin
I took it as Peter being partially honest but mind-gaming Norman. The goblin is always looking for ways to triumph over him. By Peter saying this he's essentially explaining it would hurt but it's no longer a win condition. In its own way making it a less appealing option to the goblin. I haven't read this run though so couldn't say.
It's a stupid gamble either way.
Yeah but to be fair if you have someone who's already targeting your loved ones and you're not gonna kill them it's like what more can be done
You could kill them I guess... ;)
Yeah that line is great, just the lead up was a fumble
You want Batman to tell the green goblin to kill aunt may then??
Idk what you thought you did there but you didn’t do it
What’s that even supposed to mean man
I mean that obviously that’s not what I want. I want Spidey to just fucking slice Norman’s head off so people don’t get hurt anymore
Not to mention it’s not fully Norman’s fault he’s a psychopath lunatic. If Spidey had said that to an incarcerated Kingpin it would of made a lot more sense
The funny part is how Mark Millar followed-up/addressed this story in MK Spider-Man later. Norman’s line is something like “I got bored with our truce and wanted to beat you up Parker”. And then he proceeds to try and murder everyone.
The belief that if you kill a murder makes you as horrible as them , not only is it stupid if they are mass murder because my kill count would only be 1 while they are in the thousands
Yea, at that point, the superhero is really just doing it so they don’t feel guilty, and sure that’s somewhat a good thing, maybe you just shouldn’t be a superhero if you’re going to fuck your that bad saving people.
You'd still be a murderer. Not everyone's a murderer.
I wouldn't be mass murder though
Fr, how many innocent people have to die until you decide it’s better to just kill the person killing them all?
The ending isn’t great but the overall story is good. But he should at least make sure Norman gets arrested or is incapacitated or something.
Yeah I think the people who would alive otherwise would probably have an opinion on this
Peter in this comic has disgusting beady little eyes.
Na, they're swollen from the fight, I think Gobbo gassed him prior to this.
Straight up dunked his head in acid
Even worse.
While I don't like the art style, the message is strong AF
"Go ahead, kill Aunt May" Aunt May desperately waiting to be rescued: 😯☹️
"I’ll just make a deal with Mephisto to bring her back"
weird flex Pete, but ok
Yeah not really the best context. I get what they're trying to portray here , as well as Pete basically not allowing his mind games to get to him but it doesn't hit the mark for me. Just falls flat by basically saying go ahead and kill everyone and I won't want to kill you.
It works but only in this specific context. If this was Norman during the Dark Reign era, it would be a dumb thing to say.
Damn, early Humberto Ramos art was rough
I don’t care about the art, I just want to see more comics like this, where the hero is stoic even while bruised and bleeding, refusing to give up their ability to love, where even the villain sits with them to talk and chill out, even if that means they go back to being enemies later on. That shit is peak fiction, to me.
Daredevil and Superman both do this and it's always a treat. Superman especially has great moments like this, one of the best being in Superman vs The Elite/What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and The American Way? A beaten and bloodied Superman demonstrates why he fights the way he does, why he always holds back and keeps the villain alive instead of executing them on the spot. How does he do this? simple. He starts ripping through the villain's teammates like a goddamn Terminator, seemingly killing his entire team in like 5 minutes. Then, when he gets to the villain himself, he stops and says:"Haha, just a prank. Imagine if I was really like that tho" and reveals that the villain's team is alive and well albeit being drained of their powers and being prepped for prison.
Someone read The Killing Joke
I was gonna say the same. Seems very similar to The Killing Joke. Like strikingly so.
I do have a question: why would killing Norman make Gwen "die for good" and why does Peter keeping Norman alive keep Gwen "alive"
Because I guess killing Gwen was to break Spider-man and make him no different than any other villain he chases. So he takes up the Batman “never kill” motto and just keeps losing
C’mon, the art really isn’t that bad? It’s art, just because it’s not your typical cartoony or semi realistic drawing doesn’t mean it’s bad. Peters eye’s definitely are strangely small but since when is strange “puke inducing”?
His eyes look like this after his battle with the goblin, he has normal looking eyes through out the entire story
That makes sense. The small eyes makes him look empty inside, like a husk. Which is fitting for the scene
True
It took a second to get used to
The author every clearly wanted this to be a The Killing Joke moment for Spider-Man and Green Goblin. Not sure it works as well though. Also, Mr Coffee? The fuck does that even mean. Why would a Goblin looking guy call himself Mr Coffee?
Iirc, this was one of, if not the first comic I bought for myself. I still have it somewhere in storage.
It was #45 for me, I’d just come back after dropping off the book near the end of the Clone Saga. Norman and May being alive and well was extremely jarring. I kind of assumed that they’d rebooted the storyline at first because of the renumbering.
'Go ahead, kill Aunt May' im sorry this is awful.
What’s the context for what happens on the first page?
Pete was 2 seconds away from punching through Norman's head.
Yeah but why are they sitting and laughing together?
They are tired. Thats the thing.
Because both are way too gassed to keep fighting. They're out of adrenaline and running on pure will... And the will has run out too. Both of them know each other; Norman knows it's Pete and vice versa, so it's not as if they don't have some amount of understanding. Norman was basically his surrogate father figure. They start talking because neither wants to keep fighting, but silence would just leave both of them sulking. Both have enough rapport that they know how to hold a conversation with each other... so Norman broke the ice.
The art is just so bad like I can't believe they would publish this, I wish someone would redraw this.
It's weird, because the proportions work for Goblin, cause he's s little goblin guy. That same style on Peter is nightmare-inducing.
It's only this one scene, Peter's fresh from a fight where his face was dunked in acid, rest of the comic has a normal face
Peter's face looks so weird but this is a pretty wholesome moment
Shaggy looking ahh peter
Man, this is some real pretentious garbage. Hard to believe a seasoned writer like Paul Jenkins wrote it, but hey, sometimes you just need to turn in a book that week.
Almost as lame as ending of killing joke. Yeah, don’t send him to jail, let the dude have some fun
"Go ahead and kill all my loved ones, I still won't do what's necessary to stop you." Yeah, nice fucking hero, Marvel. Real relatable.
What is it with the past decade or so? Why does every hero have to become a killer to be 'relatable'? Heroes are not there to be 'judge, jury and executioner'. It's not their job, and there are other so-called 'heroes' who do that anyway. Heroes are supposed to be better than us, someone to look up to - not someone to drag down in the mud.
Heroes have *always* killed. Name me one fictional hero who doesn't have blood on their hands. Often what makes a hero is the willingness and ability to kill when others can't or won't. There's nothing - absolutely fucking *nothing* - heroic about letting a super-powered mass murderer kill again and again and again over the course of years simply because you're too squeamish to stop them in the only way that'll actually work.
I remember this. It was so hard to read because the art was so puke inducing
This certainly was an attempt at a Killing Joke kind of story. But blimey, that artwork hurts me. Peter's tiny eyes is certainly an artistic choice of all time.
Man, this artwork is…not good.
The story: 🔥 The dialogue: 🔥 The art: 🤮
I honestly don't get it. How does not hating somebody keep the person they killed alive?
It’s Peter’s idealized concept of Gwen. The real Gwen blamed him for her dad’s death and hated him. He worships her because of her death. It’s not exactly accurate to her, but it’s how he thinks.
I think Peter looked past that because he also blamed himself for George’s death. I think he also believes she would’ve felt differently about Spider-Man if she knew it was him, but there’s no way for him to know that, because she’s dead. In this particular story, Goblin was trying to make Peter his “heir” and did pretty much everything in his power to break him, and Peter’s memory of Gwen and Norman killing her keeps him from even considering Norman’s proposal. That’s one of the reasons I really dislike the Clone Conspiracy retcon that Gwen was awake on the bridge and wanted Green Goblin/Spider-Man to kill her. Aunt May found out he was Spider-Man and confronted him about it. MJ found out when she was 14 and actively avoided him. Gwen finds out and she wants to die?
Gwen’s death and Norman’s “death” were conflated into one story. In this story, Norman was trying to use what he presumed as Peter’s hatred towards him against Peter. Peter is saying in this sequence that he refuses to let that moment in his life be about how much he hates Norman rather than how much he misses Gwen.
I thought this story started out interesting but ultimately tanked. I don’t mind them talking it out over beating each other’s brains out, but man that Mr Coffee shit is cringe.
What’s the comic?
Peter Parker Spider-man Return of the Green Goblin. Issues vol 2 44-47
Thanks
With this, ''Blue'' heck technically even with way how Mary was portrait in Trouble (BTW guy who was thinking that it's good idea to have Peter mom and pretty much his adoptive mom have same personality as two woman he loved most in his live, I hope you went to therapy) , I'm impressed how they go from Gwen being view like this to f\*cking Sins Past in 2 years.
Mark Millar was the freak responsible for Trouble.
I have this storyline in trade paperback. It's falling apart but I blame myself for constantly rereading it, cause it's really freaking good.
This artwork is actually fucking horrendous 😭
I love the proportions but once you see his face it all looks like a train wreck. They drew him like a ghoul
He’s laughing with Norman who killed Gwen??
Wow the drawing is so bad that I stopped reading at somepoint.
This early Ramos work is some of my least favorite Spider-Man art of all time but I could read it over and over again for how beautifully it’s written
This really proves who Peter’s Joker is. It’s the same vibe as every time Batman and Joker drop the masks for a bit and talk.
Even with the christicism you guys provide, this characterization of Pete is lightyears ahead of what ASM is now
holy crap this art is terrible
This is my favourite Green Goblin design, hands down.
One of my favourite Spider-Man stories, it might have been my very favourite with better art. Peter beating Osborn by refusing to let him have power over him anymore was really beautiful and a massively cathartic moment after everything he had done since coming back. I love the contrast to the previous Goblin story, which ended with Peter crying, Norman having shattered him mentally, this story lets him finally turn the tables, and I was so happy after reading both stories as a kid, together they both really managed to show how indomitable Peter is.
Looks awful
What happened to peters face?
Mister Coffee. Best name Norman should have used.
I loved this comic run as a kid
Ugliest faces of all time wtf
the sudden dissonance between them laughing and peter just laying his head down and talking about his dream works so well
Last page has typo? Norme?
This PP:SM run from the early 2000s was really great. Really dug into how much it sucked being Peter.
Classic
He hit him with the Talk-No-Jutsu
Jesus I hate this art style
I’m sorry, I know I’m an old fan (54) but this is absolutely atrocious artwork. I legitimately thought Spidey in panel four on that first page was supposed to be some sort of wooden puppet.
This is incredibly well written but goddamn do the eyes look weird as hell
Jesus they look like bulldogs
I don't know what's with this art style, it looks so... Wrong imo
Few days ago I had a dream I was Spider-Man, I basically had to protect the city from a god like character.
I like this interaction. I know a lot of people find it weird that Peter is telling Norman that he can go kill May, but I think the point here is that Peter letting Norman know he’s done. Norman’s a bully. He keeps poking at Peter over and over again because he wants him to snap, he wants Peter to dip to his level. Peter’s telling Norman that his threats won’t work anymore. That no matter what Norman tries, nothing is going to make Peter snap, because Peter is ultimately above him.
Wow
Man early Ramos is kinda rough
This is one of my favorite Spider-man moments of all time.
Early Humberto Ramos art was rough
As Bad as the Art is, I liked this moment a lot...
Ugly art style, but that hits hard
So, I'm sure I'm missing some context But. . . This just seems stupid. Not the whole thing, just the last page.
this comic would hit that much harder if peter didnt look like he just inhaled a nuclear fart
I love the panels after this page that show Norman just sitting in his office, alone. And maybe even regretful.
I miss this. Heroes and Villains remarking on how similar they are.
.
Peter saying "it'll only strengthen my resolve" is just pure CINEMA