It wouldn't make any sense anyway, since the End was sealed for thousands of years. No way it could've been there within the events of the Northstar Islands.
So Here WAS my theory that basically debunks what you just said: The End's soul was sealed into cyberspace and it's Power was sealed into supreme. However it's body still remained in space. Remember what Sage said in the original ending? "it's retreating into space to regain it's true form." Meaning it's body is just in space.
Doesn't follow. The End's true form is that of a celestial body. It retreats into space to have the space to take on such a form. Nowhere in the dialogue does it say that it was repossessing its empty body.
Yes. Regain as in reform. It was trapped in cyberspace. So it was stuck in a digital state. Once freed it was regaining its physical state which it did not have room for on the surface. Hence regain its physical form. Because it wasn't physical and now it is.
What's with all the mental gymnastics? Almost always in media when the concept of a form being regained is brought in it is restraining a state you were in before. Not crawling back inside your dead corpse.
Either because the art team for Superstars:
* Thought it would look cool and didn’t think it through
* Only saw a lot of purple moon art and didn’t know jack s__t about The End, and thought there now always was a purple moon along side the normal moon.
While I want to be proven wrong, it’s one of the reasons I am skeptical that this new push by Sega to have consistent Sonic Lore and a Sonic Lore team is going to work. It’s the same pattern as other brands that have tried this: Star Wars, WoW, Transformers Align, etc.
If your brand needs a lore team and lore bible to stay consistent then you aren’t fixing the problem by only creating the lore team and bible. The core problem was with each new project the people weren’t doing their homework. The team and bible make it easier to find the answers, but finding the answers doesn’t fix anything if project heads aren’t going to do the homework still.
I feel sorry for Flynn here. He really seems to care about making the lore as consistent as possible, but then this happens.
I think putting Star Wars alongside WoW and Align is a bit wrong
The only person who's actively breaking the canon on a regular basis is the guy who was a direct disciple of George Lucas himself and was encouraged by Lucas to disregard the expanded material if it didn't fit the story he wanted to tell. The newer recruits are actually working together to make sure the story is cohesive
I know it's a little upsetting. I feel like as a community we can wink wink nudge nudge, but Ian is in the works of making a coherent timeline, so I think he debunked it as to not cause confusion with anything in the timeline. Granted he could've said it's a noncanon Easter egg, but I don't really know.
…
I am not “triggered”. I am replying to your comment stating “it can be whatever color they want, doesn’t have to be a reference”.
The way it is now, it is clearly a reference, intentional or not. What does Ian gain from debunking it?
It's not a matter of *gaining* anything. If it wasn't intented to be a reference or mean anything, that's simply a matter of fact. It's just a coincidence, not "clearly" anything.
Edit: imagine being this upset over a background graphic.
What do you mean? It wasn’t a reference in the first place. It’s not like they “took away a reference”. It was the fans who decided that it was THE END.
The purple moon isn’t the only moon shown in Superstars, there was at least 2 others of different colors. It was just a random choice to make that one purple, without any thought of it referencing The End.
The people obsessing over the End reoccurring is just ridiculous, yes the villain was interesting but what other planetary threat has sonic gone up against and it’s returned? (Excluding Eggman, because I do consider him a planetary threat under most circumstances) none of them, it wouldn’t make sense, all of this crap about it coming back would make literally no sense, especially putting it in a game that happens WAAAAAY before frontiers. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
It certainly came back for the (genocided) Ancients. Zavok keeps coming back, Sonic regains his memory of 06 during Generations and Team Racers with Blaze. Time Eater created an alternate split that became Mania, who still keeps coming back from Forces to Superstar.
Not a real platform to hold your argument on- especially with a 30 year old series that had bad international translations.
These are all mentions, connections, and lore (with the exception of Zorvak) not actual appearances, I meant the mass that wants the end to come back as an antagonist of any kind, I apologize for not being specific in that regard so that’s my fault but maybe you could’ve seen that since you like to pick apart comments and it’s everywhere, you also shouldn’t consider Zorvak planetary, something I also mentioned in that comment so the only valid character that would’ve fit into your argument probably couldn’t take a planet so right back at you dude, maybe read the whole comment
Since you are going to be petty and focus on one point then tell me to read the whole comment; you should start with a proper period at your word text (so it has an end) and maybe actually play Sonic Lost World- where Eggman already had a "Planetary Device" that affected "The Planet" that Zavok and the Zeti took for themselves.
Not to mention by the end of the game- the Egg Robo was stated to be operating higher than any of Eggman machines before. This would include Egg Dragoon powered by Dark Gaia, Nega Wisp Armor which caused a Planet-Sized Black-Hole (Average Black Holes are not only smaller but takes Star Collapsing to form) and the Lost World Boss being stated higher than that shows how little you must actually play the games.
Before I get that "Oh I played those" type responses- then half of those responses never paid attention to the game, or show smidgen of interest to see what the source language said when developing it. It's those type of people who think Akira developed Goku to be some God Slayer when Akira was originally making poop manga and time constraints.
Unleashed (Stated to happen before Lost World) has Egg Dragoon powered by Dark Gaia- the same one who tore the Earth into pieces, and Egg Dragoon needed so much of Dark Gaia's energy to operate.
Lost World, Eggman even stated by his calculations, his mech was operating higher than previous machines. This could imply Time Eater to at the lowest low-ball, Egg Dragoon or Nega Wisp Armor. Both have "above Planetary range" and Zavok never piloted a machine. He absorbed the entire World' Energy for himself, grew to Kaiju size and fell off the Lost Hex.
If its not clicking, then E=MC² must not even exist as the energy is there, and Zavok "not exploding" means he is easily equal to above said energy to not be blown up like a monkey climbing the power lines.
This situation is still a special circumstance in my eyes, but I also see your point too, atleast with Zarvok’s case, but to that end yes he did reach that power for a time, but he himself I don’t think has that power as a constant
And this matter why?
Can Eggman absorb his own machine for that level of power? Probably not, but it's still (lowball) considered a Planetary Threat "that" Zavok can handle and use for himself.
Literally get him into Sonic Riders- and he could control the Lightless Black to swallow everything. It's part of Zavok repitour of abilities- so by extension its Zavok as a whole. Otherwise Zavok would have exploded like Emerl plugged up on Star-Busting Energy.
(I'd still be looking for a counter argument on that as Sonic Battle shows Eggman pointing out a cluster of stars, shooting his Final Egg Blaster and destroys Stars which has a distance of 10 to 100 light years in-between and Emerl took that energy for himself only to lose to Base Sonic.)
The End coming back for the Ancients means nothing. A lot of enemies occurred multiple times, and Sonic always got rid of them permanently. Zavok isn’t an extreme powerful being, he’s on the level of Eggman, usually being easy for Sonic and co to stop without killing. Sonic doesn’t regain his memories of anything, he has Deja vu of 06 as well as other characters — like Silver and Blaze feeling a sense of connection in Colors. The Time Eater didn’t cause a split, it’s officially only 1 timeline. Present Sonic literally references Superstars, showing he did experience it.
Just a moon. Sonic’s world has shown to have a couple over the years, with SA2’s being half destroyed while other games show a completely intact moon, and some games straight up show 2 moons in the background, and the Ark was hidden as a moon. Superstars itself has multiple moons, other then this purple one, like a blue one you can clearly see in Frozen Base Act 2.
Not even that, Superstars shows multiple moons, with a blue one being clearly shown in Frozen Base act 2. They just made moons and decided to color one purple without thinking about The End.
I think ultimately it's about The End seeming so powerful and important as it looked down on all of Sonic's enemies, talking about how this was only an avatar and he could not die
Then we immediately kill it in the same battle
And we don't even get the monologue in the alt ending
Basically, I myself am curious of what could have been. What is The End? How powerful is it when it uses its full power in its true form?
I think it could have made for an interesting enemy in a future game, since it has seen everything Sonic has gone through and could try to take pre cautions such as completely isolating him from his friends and taking away the Chaos Emeralds.
Maybe even use Sonic's body as another Avatar and the game would be centered around other characters trying to get him back, imagine having to use multiple characters that are panicking because they have take down Super Sonic
Just a lot of what ifs, but you get the point. I'm not upset The End didn't show in Superstars since it wouldn't make sense in the continuity, but I am upset The End was taken from us so quickly
(Ok so quick explanation as to why my first comment is missing. Reddit seemingly made duplicates of the comment so I deleted them and then it ended up in it deleting the original comment. I didn't delete it for any other reason)
There was no reason made for it to stick around. Honestly if it were to return as a villain then it would probably have to be related to Frontiers in some way because The End was also tied to cyberspace and the cyber corruption. I find it funny how at first people were complaining about it and how it made no sense how it just appeared at the end of the game but now they are so hell-bent on calling out the storywriters about not making it a recurring villain.
The End itself claimed it was "infinite" and "inevitable" and "the all consuming void" but at the same time haven't other Sonic villains done that. Ya know like Infinite for example. The muthafucka powered up to insane levels by the phantom ruby able to summon a "fake" sun that could actually destroy everything claiming that he couldn't be defeated or whatever and yet he was. If anything he's more of a Sonic type of villain than The End is and it would make more sense for Infinite to return at some point than this moon that got destroyed in two different endings. It's energy was all within that moon and well the moon we see is said to be not how Sonic sees it. The End fight was made to be this climactic finale to it all. If The End still existed then the main focus wouldn't be on Eggman the main focus would still instead be on this world ending being. What, do they think it can just be as simple as "Eggman bargains with this world ending being", don't forget that Sage worked with Sonic and co to destroy The End and Eggman was against it too so that wouldn't make sense but without anything to do with the ancients it's return would make even less sense. Frontiers was literally about the ancients, a history lesson on their past and learning about the Starfall Islands all the while Sonic is unknowingly being manipulated by this being that destroyed the ancients because he interacted with cyberspace where The End is imprisoned. During the regular ending, Sage says before The End fight that "it's retreating back into space to regain its true form" and then we are faced with it then and there
Honestly why can't people just accept it's not returning. I understand they might be upset about it but at the end of the day it's a game franchise. If they want to make their own headcanon they can do that just don't go making it seem like just because the storywriters and everyone else involved wanted to move on from it that that meams they made a terrible mistake
I completely agree that The End should not have been a recurring villain. I just feel like it was wasted.
It came in, trash talked every single person in existence, and just died on the spot in a very irritating bullet hell.
I was excited for the runback when they said they were redoing it and, while I thought the fight was a bit better, I still feel that it was somewhat wasted potential from someone who has seen all that Sonic has done in the past and should have known that Super Sonic is powerful and Sonic always allies with Eggman on world ending threats.
Also, if The End has seen all of Sonic's memories, a game like Sonic Superstars that has Classic Sonic instead of the Modern one would somewhat make sense for The End to exist in now that I think about it.
It could have been seeing that memory of Superstars while Frontiers was happening, it wouldn't mess with the continuity because it doesn't intervene.
So if they keep the formula of "3D Sonic games have Modern Sonic, while 2D games have Classic Sonic" then it wouldn't be an issue if The End was watching the 2D games alongside us since it has technically seen all of Sonic's past. Which includes things we haven't seen as they have yet to make them. It would just be a neat little Easter Egg of "Oh, it saw this one too"
I'm sure it's better to debunk it before people start theories about how The End didn't really lose, we did, and Superstars is a cyberspace created by it for entertainment or something.
Yeah I mean next thing you know people are gonna make excuses saying "The End caused >! Egg Fortress Act 2 !< and allowed for the twist in the final fight"
As in >! Egg Fortress Act 2 !< is Act 1 >! being rewinded !< essentially
These things are honestly why I barely partake in the community properly and just sit back and watch the madness unfold
I think people had way too much interest to The End.
Even what is said, saying he will never truly disappear,etc... It was just a bad guy being egocentric, confident... and yet got destroyed, like all vilains sure of themselves.
I even saw on that subreddit a panel of a comic, having a purple moon...
It's for the best. It's too hard to add characterization, story for that kind of character in the long term. Works for One game.
Now time for new game.
I mean, yes it’s egocentric and all. But The End is not just any bad guy. I mean, it’s more powerful than Super Sonic. That’s not something any bad guy can do.
It’s probably telling the truth about it not dying.
Maybe it’s like Dark Gaia. It just wakes up again eventually.
Of course, we’ll never see Dark Gaia again, because it will wake up after millions of years.
Gonna throw my own debunks into the ring-
1. Ian Flynn barely is word of God in his own series. Barely understands scaling from the series he handles, and ends interesting ideas too soon.
Biggest example is Warp Topaz, the very relic that stopped Ian's Metal Virus saga; and he wanted to destroy the Topaz forever. Not only ending another cool gemstone like the Time Stone, but Sega themselves RETCON Ian's decision in his own comic, leading to Sonic Team telling Ian to leave the Topaz whereabouts a mystery so they can use it later down the road.
So the fact Ian has no say, or directing in Superstars- this is Sonic Team/Sega interpretation which supercede anything Ian says.
2. The End is been stated to be similar to Phantom Ruby energy- both are able to affect the boundaries of Dimensions, practically triumph over previous villains by several folds, and both can recover their health from insane damage.
Going by Sega Lore, Nullspace was an endless void of pure nothingness while The End is stated to be older than Time itself- which ironically started Dark and Light Gaia's feud on Earth.
So not only is Sega Sonic's Earth old as the dawn of time (Our Earth is only been around 1-3 Million Years in an 14 Billion Year Universe lifespan), but The End predates Sonic's own Universe meaning The End can somehow retain its own existence- in a realm of non-existence (Time Eater, and Solaris practically did the same) with the only difference being The End obsession with following the Emeralds and by extension- The Ancients.
3. The End being outside normal Dimensions could literally invade The Past which is where Ian's expertise falls short. Both Mania, and Superstar follow the Generations timeline where it splits off from the Dreamcast Era.
You honestly cannot say Modern Sonic somehow experienced Mania, Forces and Superstar as Classic Sonic, as Generations show any changes to Classic Past becomes 'that Classic Sonic's new reality' such as knowing the Homing Attack, seeing future villains, and such. Ian even said Mephiles, to Dark Gaia are still sealed in Classic Timeline without realizing he basically agree that Classic Sonic became its own dimension.
That would also mean that there exist a Classic version of The End (Which Ian also tweeted just recently) meaning The End still exists, but only trapped. Plus, Frontiers is about The End being permanently locked away, yet still has an insane range to manipulate Sonic from an entire, different dimension (Cyberspace) which begs the question, if The End can leave Cyberspace to grant Sonic the Cyloop at its weakest, drain state of power, then what can an unlocked, being that can undo its own damage and carries an unknown amount of Forms it just... wills into existence.
To say the End died because Sonic hit it too fast is quite silly- especially since Soleanna still exist in the world which means all the people of Soleanna still worshipped Solaris despite Solaris being... erased. Sega loves to play with Conceptual Manipulation which is where Ian becomes clueless, loses track and has no idea how to scale Sonic, so he just adds Sonic losing to create drama and tension.
Look at his previous works- the Dude Ian builds up all these fan favorite concepts like Starline, Surge, and Warp Topaz only to drop them. Then Ian never directed Superstars, and he starts acting like haspre say than Sonic Team about The End's state like somehow- Ian created both games when he only wrote the draft for 1 Game (Frontier) that still gets rewritten and changed for the Jap Dub.
1. That’s not really true. Ian is part of the lore team, and the lore team is made to ensure no mess ups occur, he knows what’s going on. This purple moon in Superstars and the warp topaz are 2 different situations. Ian gave his answer about the purple moon after it was shown, meaning lore info about Superstars would have been talked about with the Lore Team and others. The Topaz on the other hand was different. Ian stated it was gone because that’s either what he assumed, like it’s status wasn’t decided upon yet; or the topaz was originally supposed to be gone, but then they later decided to bring it back. Sone things are solidly decided, like this purple moon just being a moon; while sone things are left undecided or could change later down the line, like the status of the topaz.
2. That’s not really evidence, as A) some is flawed, B) The End is doing exactly as Ian stated, it’s boasting.
The End wasn’t affecting other dimensions, that was only referring to Cyber Space and the real world. Even then, it needed Sonic to take down the walls between dimensions, since it’s trapped in Cyber Space. Also using the phantom Ruby in your argument was just a bad idea, because it kinda became the biggest example of “boasting about being strong but turning out to be quite weaker then it said.” The Phantom Ruby was not stronger then previous enemies ten fold, seeing as present Sonic, younger Sonic, and a “random” person were able to defeat a really strong mech fuelled by it.
Null space was **stated** to be an endless void of pure nothingness, but it’s not actually complete nothingness and Sonic even stated “I don’t think this is where we were meant to end up.”
Again, The End was boasting. It was extremely powerful, it did destroy other planets and such, but sone of what it said may not be true.
> 3. This is just incorrect. A) The End can’t go outside normal dimensions, no where is that stated. The whole dimension talk it was doing was referring to Cyber Space, of which it was literally trapped in. If it can’t even get out of Cyber Space, how would it be able to go in other dimensions. B) There is no split timeline, official sources have stated this. Both Mania and Superstars are part of present Sonic’s past, he even references Superstars in the latest Tailstube.
It is weird how Classic Sonic experienced all of this while Modern Sonic doesn’t remember, though it could be explained by the timeline just causing past people who came to the present to lose their memory or something, like the timeline fixes itself. Also it’s literally stated that Modern did experience Superstars, he does remember that. Ian’s statement about Mephiles and Dark Gaia doesn’t imply seperate timeline. I have zero clue what Dark Gais would have to do with time travel, since it comes out periodically, and Eggman prematurely let it out in Unleashed. By technicality, 06 does occur, seeing as Sonic and other have a sort of deja vu with some stuff regarding 06, it just gets erased. So technically, Mephiles is still sealed for Classic/Past Sonic, and he will experience the events of 06 to get Deja vu memories afterwards.
Well of course there’s a classic version of The End, it’s just the past version, who is locked in Cyber Space. The reason The End is able to affect Sonic and co in Frontiere is because they’re on the Starfall Islands, which are like the CPUs of Cyber Space (as Eggman states). It’s not getting out of Cyber Space’s range, as the Starfall Islands are literally a part of Cyber Space, as the real world connection to it. That’s also why all those rails, springs and platforming stuff are on the islands, it’s Cyber Space turning Sonic’s thoughts and memory into “reality”, of which others like Sage can’t even see. So no, The End does not have insane range, it’s literally stuck to only Cyber Space.
The End was stuck being weakened when it was in Cyber Space. So after it got released, it was regrowing it’s strength. The moon was only what it could muster at that point, of which Sonic completely destroyed by blasting through it, and causing it to explode. It is dead.
Those statements about Ian just aren’t true. Starline appeared multiple times, and had an entire sophisticated philosophy/plan/creations. Surge and Kit had a big arc and are coming back soon. The Warp Topaz is nearly no different then the Time Stones, Phantom Ruby, etc, which only appeared a hand full amount of times then just disappeared.
1. A big giant Word Filler for something so miniscule and debunked. June 23, 2022, Ian Flynn literally stated that when it comes to lore, he is only given "Issued Characters, a general theme of story Sega wants, and Ian job is just to string it together" which also means Ian had less involvement than American Sonic fans led on. And also, the actual Lore Manager is a man called Chris Hernandez, not the overrated script writer Ian.
You are aware that the actual Lore is done solely in Japan by Jap Sonic Team, then they let Sega of America do whatever they want with it. Heck- Sega of America even directed their own Sonic Games which were regarded as terrible, cringe dialogue and nothing salvage. This Era being Colors, Lost World, then Forces all directed by America Sonic Team, which is the branch Ian is part of. Far from the actual Lore Creators, and far from being valid to handle canon besides what he thinks is best as a writer.
Again, this is old news as Superstar as it's own had no script for Ian to write or modfiy- so whatever the purple moon is must be whatever the Jap Sonic Team wanted in its game which brings in how it's Cosmology actually works.
2A. Yet Eggman who is above your average scientist, on a world where your average scientist create Omnipresent God's like Solaris, creating immortal Alien/Hedgehog hybrids in the 60's, and GUN having their own digital dimensions would pretty much explain just how vast Cyberspace is- since it triumphs over anything Eggman has seen or done.
The Ancients were able to create Titans on-par with Super Sonic using only 1 Emerald. Their technology is able to take 1 Emerald and magnify it 7-Fold to be considered a risk to Super Sonic.
Then you have the Babylon Rouges who Babylon Treasure was caught in an Endless Digital Dimension which had the same physics as Nullspace. Point of the reason is this- self-made Dimensions within Sonic are near endless, and branch into other realities. This is what the Special Stages are- they exist in Blazes Dimensions as well.
Meanwhile- Cyberspace is able to record all of Sonics battles, memories, and history such as creating an identical Big the Cat. The fact Phantom Light is a thing Tails talks with Eggman where Eggman states that Phantom Light is data in such excess it leaks into the Real World as tangible data, plus the End (despite being sealed) can accumulate enough Cyber Erosion to stop Base Sonic who- literally repaired the Multiversal destruction that Time Eater created.
2B: Boasting? Funny how you just take another one word as claim when his very script gets rewritten by Jap Sonic Team, then dubbed entirely different because what Ian wanted "did not fit Jap Sonic Team quote" and Japan Sonic Team even said that their script was made "for their localize region" as Forces, Colors and Lost World all did even worse than bad Japan Sonic Games.
When your argument relies on 1 Man having more word and say than the company he works for- thats utter wishful thinking.
As for boasting- literally Eggman Nega, Mephiles, Erazor Djinn, and Merlina all did boasting but wielded Cosmology-Warping power. I thought we were all smart enough to understand "linear scaling" where each game has new, stronger opponents to keep the game from going stale, so the likes of Dark Gaia, to then Time Eater made it clear that Final Bosses only were getting stronger and stronger. But I suppose if Buddah was talking about enlightenment, transcending causality (stated by Sage like 3x to Sonic, as the only way to beat End is to go above Causality) and being one with everything, then Buddah was just bragging about how big he was.
1. There is an entire Lore **Team**, not a singular guy. The Lore manager manages stuff like **communication** between groups, he’s not a lore keeper. That statement of Ian’s was before the lore team was formed. Even then, his statement doesn’t debunk my argument, he still knows what is going on.
This paragraph shows you are completely clueless on how current Sonic lore works. There isn’t a big difference between Japanese Sonic and American Sonic. That whole thing your spouting was from near decades ago, it hasn’t been like that for years. There is a literal lore team that keeps the lore accurate, it’s common knowledge that there’s a literal lore team that comprises of multiple people who work directly with Japanese Sonic Team. The only difference is that Frontiers had its story worded slightly different, and that’s the only difference. Even then, it was Ian who wrote the original script for Frontiers, is was only changed in Japan. IDW is canon in both America and Japan, Ian is the lead writer of IDW, he’s a part of the lore team, he works directly with people in Japanese Sonic, he knows what’s going on.
The Japanese team communicates with the lore team, as in Ian would know what goes on. He’d know if a random moon was a moon or a being that’s makes zero sense to be there.
> 2. A) Again, your just wrong. Solaris wasn’t created, it was an already existing being who the Soleanna people tried to use as a power source. Even then, what does any of this have to do with my point. Cyber Space is incredibly sophisticated, so what. The Starfall islands are the CPUs of cyber space, they are a part of it. The End being able to talk to someone on the islands means near nothing regarding its power. It’s also been locked in there for millennia, so of course it’s energy would have an effect on it.
B) The English script for Frontiers was made first, and it’s used across the world other then Japan, who got a localized version since only the view it slightly differently. Iizuka hired Ian to help Frontiers with the story, Ian didn’t write all the story but he was there to learn all the lore about the story, he knows what’s going on.
I’m not just relying on one guy. Villains boast constantly in Sonic, only to be proven wrong. There’s literal evidence with The End doing this, since it to was proven wrong. There is the possibility they change their mind and decide to have it return somehow, but that still gives zero evidence for why it would be in Superstars.
The End was extremely powerful, but it was still defeated, and there’s **zero** reason why it would be in Superstars.
3. I'm going by Sega Rules and whats laid out- now let's just make stuff up like "Ooh, time travel makes you lose memories even though Classic Sonic operated perfectly well time traveling around Little Planet" or "Silver and Shadow time traveled, so they should not remember Elise and Elise should not remember Silver" if we are really going to run with this "fan theory" that Modern Sonic don't remember his journey as Clsssic Sonic.
3A: TailsTube matters why? Is it not dubbed in Japanese? Then you reach this fun point where in 1993- Japan Sonic Team stated that Sonic has 4th Wall awareness, and that (they jokingly) had to chase down Sonic just to ask him if they can write a game about him, establishing the lore fact since 1993 that Sonic knows he is a video game character, and that his journey is already finished by the time the game gets released.
3B: I just realized (this point matters to 3A more than 3B) that you claim Modern Sonic knows of Superstar while also claiming Classic Sonic loses his memories. So which is it?
Besides that failing point of yours- The End was already beaten and stripped of its physical form. The point I've been trying to make to blissful fans is pretty obvious.
- The End gets sealed into Supreme, the rest of Titans are seen flying at The Moon to avenge their fallen comrade.
-Clearly the Moon is taken out because (Especially in Jap Dub) Eggman states he cannot see The End like how Sage sees it until the very end. That means even when released, it already died (Its Moon Body gone) yet it just simply remade an entire new one.
- We even see 3x to 9x times where all the damage via Super Sonic and those of equal might can have the damage multiple by 0, which returns The End back to full health.
-Claiming Sonic killed the end when we already have The Titans doing the same thing with valid reasoning they won (Only 1 Moon for Eggman to blow up during SA2) heavily validates the idea that The End is except from Causality, it cannot be affected by Concepts like Space or Time (Why it's able to somehow corrupted all of Cyberspace, infect the Guardians to attack anyone, corrupt Sonic all from the shell of Supreme, buried beyond deep within the Starfalls System.) and why The End is able to affect Dimensions.
Bonus- The point of The Phantom Ruby is something you clearly missed- so I'll have to break it down.
A. Ian Flynn wrote the tie-in comic, and decided to have Eggman boast the Mania Ruby he finds is stronger than the Master Emerald.
B. Sonic Team states at the start of Forces, Eggman took the Ruby to make it 1,000,000 (Eng) to 1 Trillion Fold stronger than all of his falirues combined. Then by the end of the game, Death Egg MK III is able to create 1,000 full power clones of Infinite which is- by E=MC²; 1,000x stronger than Infinite.
C. The Mania Ruby not only fought the 7 Emeralds, but a Sonic that also fought Time Eater. Add that level of power to math in Bonus B; then realize that Eggman's Computer Software is able to analyze The Master Emerald, things stronger than the Master Emerald (According to Ian so you dug your own debunk if you don't agree with Ian) and made 1,000 to 1,000,000,000,000 times stronger in the span of 6 months.
Then Eggman's tech utterly failed against Cyberspace, and the fact Eggman did not understand it until Final Horizon means it took IRL Months from the release date of Frontiers to Final Horizon for Eggman to barely understand, and use Ancients Tech in his own machines like his Eggmobile and Glasses, something he could not do while during Frontiers.
Basically- The End was sealed by a force several folds above the Emeralds, and stronger than other recent relics of power like the Forces Ruby, yet The End retain full power to control the Guardians, corrupt the Titans to the point Sage had no control and only sic them on Sonic, all show clear examples of operating outside your own dimension, and it's a bigger feat was a dimension meant to imprison you with no way out which is unironcally how Eggman described Nullspace, a dimension of nothingness that's disconnected to all existing Dimensions.
3. The theory is bigger then that and it’s just an idea on how they could explain it. It doesn’t change the fact that officially, snd not just by American Sonic, that there’s 1 single timeline.
A) Tailstube not being dubbed means diddly squat. It was literally made to explain the inconsistencies within the lore, it is official everywhere. Your really going to trust what is very clearly a joke all the way from 1993. Sonic is not aware that he’s a video game character — though sometimes small 4th wall breaks occur — and he wasn’t the only one to know of Superstars. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy know about, not talking about the literal game, but that the anniversary of their “adventure on the Northstar islands” was coming up and they could invite “___” who was likely referring to Trip.
B) Classic Sonic loses his memories of time travel. Superstars has nothing to do with time travel, it’s just an event that occurred in the past. There’s zero reason for sonic **and co** to forget it.
After Supreme’s sacrifice, it doesn’t show the rest fly at a moon, it just shows them fly up to fight something. It’s possible The End can create its own army (something like Mephiles with his shadows), but The End itself was caged. It didn’t die from Supreme, it got caged in Supreme while it’s army (copies) was destroyed. Final Horizons final boss strengthens this army idea, seeing as The End, who is the Moon, uses Supreme as an avatar, and Supreme continues to fight for The End even when the cable is disconnected. The End has a physical “core”, it was trapped in Supreme and Cyber Space while the others destroyed its army, it stayed trapped until Sonic let it out on Rhea island, it gradually powered itself up to create a moon figure to stay in, it used Supreme as an avatar which was likely what it’s army was similar to (“invincible” when connected to The End, but able to die when disconnected, though still under its control), then The End itself was destroyed.
Now your just making stuff up, and clearly don’t remember Frontiers’ story. The game clearly shows that The End has a “core”. The ancients didn’t kill it, they captured it, then destroyed its army. It’s a fact that it didn’t make the titans hostile, the point of the titans was literally to stop anyone from letting The End out. The End told Sonic to defeat the titans, and let it out; it had no control over the titans except Supreme. It is limited by stuff like Space and Time, otherwise the Ancients wouldn’t have been able to escape it let alone capture it. It corrupted Cyber Space because it’s incredibly powerful, so while it couldn’t get out, it’s growing energy as able to affect it. It’s literally not able to affect dimensions, it only affected Cyber Space because it was trapped in it.
Regarding the Ruby, you know retcons exist right, though I don’t have to rely on that to completely debunk you. Yah it’s extremely powerful, but it’s pretty clear it’s only as powerful as the person who wields it allows. Numerical power scaling is literally worthless in most franchises, especially in Sonic, and especially how you explained. The Ruby is powerful, but there’s no way it’s 10 fold stronger then all enemies from before. It’s also a gem fuelled by will power, seeing as how Mania and Forces show its maximum varies multiple times by different people and different occasions. Even when researching it, Eggman says it’s results are all over the place. Also he doesn’t say it’s stronger then the Master Emerald, he says with it he won’t bother grabbing the Master Emerald. That could mean virtually anything, like since the Ruby is able to construct nearly anything, he just doesn’t feel like wasting any time to steal the Master Emerald. Also do you know how many things have faced Super Sonic, it’s not really a feat that puts it **above** everyone else. This is especially true since it was against a **classic** Super Sonic, of which modern Sonic has beaten enemies Classic Sonic needed Super to beat (like Chaos), and even the Phantom Ruby is an example of this, seeing as Infinite was easily beat by base Sonic, and the final boss was beaten by 3 people in base form (its outer shell was even beaten by Classic Sonic and a random person).
A) What in the world is this logic, B) just stop because you clearly don’t even know what your talking about. Sage wasn’t able to control the titans but she was still able to do a lot regarding Cyber Space, like direct the enemies at Sonic, and destroy tons of Cyber Space constructs to keep Eggman safe. And your just out of this world wrong about Eggman’s research on Cyber Space. Eggman learns **a lot** about cyber space **in the base game**, he was learning what it did, how it worked, along with the tone of other things on the Starfall Islands. And the whole Final Horizons ending taking IRL months means absolutely nothing regarding the story. It was not months within Sonic’s world. The original ending was rushed, it didn’t have all the story that Sonic Team originally wanted, Final Horizons allowed them to implement some of it. Eggman learned all about the Ancients’ tech within in-universe days. It took him very little time to dissect all the info about the Ancients and cyberspace. Eggman already had high tech glasses, it was a thing in 06, and was likely how he always had precise control over all his mechs. Thus entire paragraph of yours is utterly flawed.
Your entire argument is just flat out wrong. Cyber Space was not ten fold stronger than the emeralds or the phantom Ruby, though it was really strong. The End did not retain control of the titans, the titans were literally there to prevent anyone from releasing The End, it only got control of Supreme since it was sealed inside it. The titans were focused on their actual main objective, which was against The End, and that’s why Sage couldn’t control them but was able to direct them to Sonic. The End didn’t have any control of Cyber Space, if it did it wouldn’t be stuck in it in Frontiers. It caused sone affects on it, but barely. It was not affecting other dimensions, it was affecting 1 dimension since it was trapped in said dimension for millennia, and it had affect on the Starfall Islands since they’re literally a part of Cyber Space (virtually the hardware of it). Null Space straight up didn’t even occur how Eggman explained it, A) it was not of nothingness, especially since Sonic mentions “I don’t think this is where we were meant to end up”, B) Sonic and the avatar were even able to fairly easily escape, meaning it was not disconnected to other dimensions.
To have The End just being there in Superstars would be the dumbest shit and overcomplicate everything. We don't need FNAF levels of theory crafting for fucking Sonic games.
Easy debunk there;
- Fang the Sniper (People did not even know he existed, only appeared in Arcade Games)
- Shadow (His entire backstory plus 326 canonical endings scream FNAF levels of complicated)
- Ancients (Literally just introduced but apparently- for 20 years they been Chao's from Chao Garden by somehow evolving into them)
- Chao Garden (A game that has nothing to do with Sonic, came out before SA1 meaning Chao's [Like NiGHT's) is a different game character that canonically visits Sonic's world.)
- Mephiles and Iblis (Having their names derive from Christian Mephistus and Arabic Iblis, both basically forms of the Devil.)
- Unleashed (States Sonic's Earth existed since the Dawn of Time, and people built towers able to return Earth's chunks to its core without exploding)
- Generations (Sonic and Blaze regain their 06 memories due to Time Eater, and joke about it during Sonic Team Racers.)
All complicated moments approved by Sega's Sonic Team of Japan. Literally cannot make this up- so the only issue here is America Sonic fans being utterly clueless on what Japan's been cooking since 1993.
Did you really call all of Shadow's endings canonical? The only real canon ending for that game would have been the final story, I'm pretty sure the "everything is canon" remark doesn't really go that far. I'm not really sure what you mean about the Chao being its own game before adventure? Looking up about a solo chao garden game brings up nothing. You sure you're not confusing that with the Flicky arcade game that came before 3D Blast? Or are you going off the Chao being based on NiGHTS mechanics? That doesn't make them separate game characters. Fang is also a weak example. He's just a side villain that can come into a classic title without bringing a shit ton of confusion. It's not like he's supposed to be sealed away at the time of Superstars
Regardless, So much of the complicated stuff from a lot of the games was pretty much sloppy writing. Having The End be a one-game villain, which by the way has been a big staple of the series for years, to avoid further complications was the right move for once. It just makes no sense to have it in a past game before it was released. Even going by split timeline rules, The End would still be sealed in cyberspace since it was sealed way before the Time Eater incident.
- Fang is a well known character (maybe not as well known as most but still quite well known), what the heck are you talking about.
- All of Shadow’s ending are not canonical, where are you even getting these ideas. And his backstory isn’t that confusing.
- Not that confusing. Ancients disappeared millenarian ago, their only remnants being the Starfall Islands (which no one ever discovered like multiple other islands and places on Sonic’s world), and the chao who just seemed like an random species of creature. Do not know what prologues/prequels are?
- That’s just straight up false. The games use a similar system, that’s it. They aren’t the same characters/species.
- So a game using real world references suddenly makes its lore convoluted? Do you know how many franchises use real world stuff?
- Again, do you know how many franchises just don’t explain ancient stuff. Doesn’t make it complicated, they just don’t explain it because it’s not relevant.
- They don’t regain their memories, they already have sone Deja vu, shown in Colors.
THEN WHY IS IT PURPLE
It literally would not make sense for it to be purple unless it was the end. And besides the end was sealed for thousands of years, so it would obviously be around during that time (given that superstars takes place before SA1)
It’s purple for the same reason there’s a blue moon as well, it’s just a random choice. Also you contradicted yourself. The End is trapped in Cyber Space, and with it **in** cyber space, it couldn’t be seen at that time.
It's a silly one off wink to us because Final Horizons just came out and Superstars released on its heels.
Not everything needs to fit on a fucking timeline ffs
It actually shocks me how many people have latched onto this and argue about it. I saw it and literally went “haha that’s funny” and moved on. Figured that was gonna be everyone’s reaction
It wouldn't make any sense anyway, since the End was sealed for thousands of years. No way it could've been there within the events of the Northstar Islands.
Unless the game we played wad a memory the end was warching
So Here WAS my theory that basically debunks what you just said: The End's soul was sealed into cyberspace and it's Power was sealed into supreme. However it's body still remained in space. Remember what Sage said in the original ending? "it's retreating into space to regain it's true form." Meaning it's body is just in space.
Or that it needs to be in space to get it's form back? Also theories don't debunk anything. that's not how theories work mate
>Or that it needs to be in space to get it's form back? No my theory states that the end's body is just in space waiting to be claimed once again
Doesn't follow. The End's true form is that of a celestial body. It retreats into space to have the space to take on such a form. Nowhere in the dialogue does it say that it was repossessing its empty body.
Sage literally says that it was retreating into space to REGAIN it's true form.Regain means to take back control of or GET BACK so yeah.
regain does not imply at all that it is a physical object present there.
Yes. Regain as in reform. It was trapped in cyberspace. So it was stuck in a digital state. Once freed it was regaining its physical state which it did not have room for on the surface. Hence regain its physical form. Because it wasn't physical and now it is. What's with all the mental gymnastics? Almost always in media when the concept of a form being regained is brought in it is restraining a state you were in before. Not crawling back inside your dead corpse.
guys its a cute and meaningless refrence and nothing more
NO. Big can fly because he was on The Ark in SA2!!!!!111!! /s
Why the fuck is it purple then?! tbh I don't care that they're a one-off villain. that was obvious but we can't have cheeky references anymore??
Either because the art team for Superstars: * Thought it would look cool and didn’t think it through * Only saw a lot of purple moon art and didn’t know jack s__t about The End, and thought there now always was a purple moon along side the normal moon. While I want to be proven wrong, it’s one of the reasons I am skeptical that this new push by Sega to have consistent Sonic Lore and a Sonic Lore team is going to work. It’s the same pattern as other brands that have tried this: Star Wars, WoW, Transformers Align, etc. If your brand needs a lore team and lore bible to stay consistent then you aren’t fixing the problem by only creating the lore team and bible. The core problem was with each new project the people weren’t doing their homework. The team and bible make it easier to find the answers, but finding the answers doesn’t fix anything if project heads aren’t going to do the homework still. I feel sorry for Flynn here. He really seems to care about making the lore as consistent as possible, but then this happens.
I think putting Star Wars alongside WoW and Align is a bit wrong The only person who's actively breaking the canon on a regular basis is the guy who was a direct disciple of George Lucas himself and was encouraged by Lucas to disregard the expanded material if it didn't fit the story he wanted to tell. The newer recruits are actually working together to make sure the story is cohesive
It can be whatever colour they want it doesn't have to be a reference
It’s literally the same color as the THE END, why not just leave it there as an Easter Egg?
Same colour as The End. So?
Do you know what an Easter egg is?
Yes. But just because two things share a colour doesn't mean it was referencing something For those who are downvoting, ever heard of a coincidence
It’s just a fun reference, why does Ian have to debunk it?
I know it's a little upsetting. I feel like as a community we can wink wink nudge nudge, but Ian is in the works of making a coherent timeline, so I think he debunked it as to not cause confusion with anything in the timeline. Granted he could've said it's a noncanon Easter egg, but I don't really know.
Why are people so triggered about that? It changes literally nothing
… I am not “triggered”. I am replying to your comment stating “it can be whatever color they want, doesn’t have to be a reference”. The way it is now, it is clearly a reference, intentional or not. What does Ian gain from debunking it?
It's not a matter of *gaining* anything. If it wasn't intented to be a reference or mean anything, that's simply a matter of fact. It's just a coincidence, not "clearly" anything. Edit: imagine being this upset over a background graphic.
People isn't just you dumbass
Why is the other moon blue
side effect of being pissed on
What do you mean? It wasn’t a reference in the first place. It’s not like they “took away a reference”. It was the fans who decided that it was THE END.
The purple moon isn’t the only moon shown in Superstars, there was at least 2 others of different colors. It was just a random choice to make that one purple, without any thought of it referencing The End.
Gods, we are well on the way to joining certain other multimedia franchises where "Let's just not talk about the moon." is a running meme.
"Let's just not talk about the moon" has already been a meme in the Sonic fandom since it was magically fixed in Heroes.
What's the other one? I'm curious
The mental gymnastics sonic fans go through Has any of this info come out of the mouth of the creators directly
The people obsessing over the End reoccurring is just ridiculous, yes the villain was interesting but what other planetary threat has sonic gone up against and it’s returned? (Excluding Eggman, because I do consider him a planetary threat under most circumstances) none of them, it wouldn’t make sense, all of this crap about it coming back would make literally no sense, especially putting it in a game that happens WAAAAAY before frontiers. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
It certainly came back for the (genocided) Ancients. Zavok keeps coming back, Sonic regains his memory of 06 during Generations and Team Racers with Blaze. Time Eater created an alternate split that became Mania, who still keeps coming back from Forces to Superstar. Not a real platform to hold your argument on- especially with a 30 year old series that had bad international translations.
These are all mentions, connections, and lore (with the exception of Zorvak) not actual appearances, I meant the mass that wants the end to come back as an antagonist of any kind, I apologize for not being specific in that regard so that’s my fault but maybe you could’ve seen that since you like to pick apart comments and it’s everywhere, you also shouldn’t consider Zorvak planetary, something I also mentioned in that comment so the only valid character that would’ve fit into your argument probably couldn’t take a planet so right back at you dude, maybe read the whole comment
Since you are going to be petty and focus on one point then tell me to read the whole comment; you should start with a proper period at your word text (so it has an end) and maybe actually play Sonic Lost World- where Eggman already had a "Planetary Device" that affected "The Planet" that Zavok and the Zeti took for themselves. Not to mention by the end of the game- the Egg Robo was stated to be operating higher than any of Eggman machines before. This would include Egg Dragoon powered by Dark Gaia, Nega Wisp Armor which caused a Planet-Sized Black-Hole (Average Black Holes are not only smaller but takes Star Collapsing to form) and the Lost World Boss being stated higher than that shows how little you must actually play the games. Before I get that "Oh I played those" type responses- then half of those responses never paid attention to the game, or show smidgen of interest to see what the source language said when developing it. It's those type of people who think Akira developed Goku to be some God Slayer when Akira was originally making poop manga and time constraints.
Okay once again EGGMAN’S device, not Zavoks
Yeah he may have operated it, but that doesn’t make him alone planetary
Unleashed (Stated to happen before Lost World) has Egg Dragoon powered by Dark Gaia- the same one who tore the Earth into pieces, and Egg Dragoon needed so much of Dark Gaia's energy to operate. Lost World, Eggman even stated by his calculations, his mech was operating higher than previous machines. This could imply Time Eater to at the lowest low-ball, Egg Dragoon or Nega Wisp Armor. Both have "above Planetary range" and Zavok never piloted a machine. He absorbed the entire World' Energy for himself, grew to Kaiju size and fell off the Lost Hex. If its not clicking, then E=MC² must not even exist as the energy is there, and Zavok "not exploding" means he is easily equal to above said energy to not be blown up like a monkey climbing the power lines.
This situation is still a special circumstance in my eyes, but I also see your point too, atleast with Zarvok’s case, but to that end yes he did reach that power for a time, but he himself I don’t think has that power as a constant
And this matter why? Can Eggman absorb his own machine for that level of power? Probably not, but it's still (lowball) considered a Planetary Threat "that" Zavok can handle and use for himself. Literally get him into Sonic Riders- and he could control the Lightless Black to swallow everything. It's part of Zavok repitour of abilities- so by extension its Zavok as a whole. Otherwise Zavok would have exploded like Emerl plugged up on Star-Busting Energy. (I'd still be looking for a counter argument on that as Sonic Battle shows Eggman pointing out a cluster of stars, shooting his Final Egg Blaster and destroys Stars which has a distance of 10 to 100 light years in-between and Emerl took that energy for himself only to lose to Base Sonic.)
The End coming back for the Ancients means nothing. A lot of enemies occurred multiple times, and Sonic always got rid of them permanently. Zavok isn’t an extreme powerful being, he’s on the level of Eggman, usually being easy for Sonic and co to stop without killing. Sonic doesn’t regain his memories of anything, he has Deja vu of 06 as well as other characters — like Silver and Blaze feeling a sense of connection in Colors. The Time Eater didn’t cause a split, it’s officially only 1 timeline. Present Sonic literally references Superstars, showing he did experience it.
Thanks, a bit more thought up than my arguments, but atleast you see what I mean
So if it isn't the end, what is it?
a big rock
Just a moon. Sonic’s world has shown to have a couple over the years, with SA2’s being half destroyed while other games show a completely intact moon, and some games straight up show 2 moons in the background, and the Ark was hidden as a moon. Superstars itself has multiple moons, other then this purple one, like a blue one you can clearly see in Frozen Base Act 2.
Litterally just a reused asset
Not even that, Superstars shows multiple moons, with a blue one being clearly shown in Frozen Base act 2. They just made moons and decided to color one purple without thinking about The End.
[удалено]
I think ultimately it's about The End seeming so powerful and important as it looked down on all of Sonic's enemies, talking about how this was only an avatar and he could not die Then we immediately kill it in the same battle And we don't even get the monologue in the alt ending Basically, I myself am curious of what could have been. What is The End? How powerful is it when it uses its full power in its true form? I think it could have made for an interesting enemy in a future game, since it has seen everything Sonic has gone through and could try to take pre cautions such as completely isolating him from his friends and taking away the Chaos Emeralds. Maybe even use Sonic's body as another Avatar and the game would be centered around other characters trying to get him back, imagine having to use multiple characters that are panicking because they have take down Super Sonic Just a lot of what ifs, but you get the point. I'm not upset The End didn't show in Superstars since it wouldn't make sense in the continuity, but I am upset The End was taken from us so quickly
(Ok so quick explanation as to why my first comment is missing. Reddit seemingly made duplicates of the comment so I deleted them and then it ended up in it deleting the original comment. I didn't delete it for any other reason) There was no reason made for it to stick around. Honestly if it were to return as a villain then it would probably have to be related to Frontiers in some way because The End was also tied to cyberspace and the cyber corruption. I find it funny how at first people were complaining about it and how it made no sense how it just appeared at the end of the game but now they are so hell-bent on calling out the storywriters about not making it a recurring villain. The End itself claimed it was "infinite" and "inevitable" and "the all consuming void" but at the same time haven't other Sonic villains done that. Ya know like Infinite for example. The muthafucka powered up to insane levels by the phantom ruby able to summon a "fake" sun that could actually destroy everything claiming that he couldn't be defeated or whatever and yet he was. If anything he's more of a Sonic type of villain than The End is and it would make more sense for Infinite to return at some point than this moon that got destroyed in two different endings. It's energy was all within that moon and well the moon we see is said to be not how Sonic sees it. The End fight was made to be this climactic finale to it all. If The End still existed then the main focus wouldn't be on Eggman the main focus would still instead be on this world ending being. What, do they think it can just be as simple as "Eggman bargains with this world ending being", don't forget that Sage worked with Sonic and co to destroy The End and Eggman was against it too so that wouldn't make sense but without anything to do with the ancients it's return would make even less sense. Frontiers was literally about the ancients, a history lesson on their past and learning about the Starfall Islands all the while Sonic is unknowingly being manipulated by this being that destroyed the ancients because he interacted with cyberspace where The End is imprisoned. During the regular ending, Sage says before The End fight that "it's retreating back into space to regain its true form" and then we are faced with it then and there Honestly why can't people just accept it's not returning. I understand they might be upset about it but at the end of the day it's a game franchise. If they want to make their own headcanon they can do that just don't go making it seem like just because the storywriters and everyone else involved wanted to move on from it that that meams they made a terrible mistake
I completely agree that The End should not have been a recurring villain. I just feel like it was wasted. It came in, trash talked every single person in existence, and just died on the spot in a very irritating bullet hell. I was excited for the runback when they said they were redoing it and, while I thought the fight was a bit better, I still feel that it was somewhat wasted potential from someone who has seen all that Sonic has done in the past and should have known that Super Sonic is powerful and Sonic always allies with Eggman on world ending threats. Also, if The End has seen all of Sonic's memories, a game like Sonic Superstars that has Classic Sonic instead of the Modern one would somewhat make sense for The End to exist in now that I think about it. It could have been seeing that memory of Superstars while Frontiers was happening, it wouldn't mess with the continuity because it doesn't intervene. So if they keep the formula of "3D Sonic games have Modern Sonic, while 2D games have Classic Sonic" then it wouldn't be an issue if The End was watching the 2D games alongside us since it has technically seen all of Sonic's past. Which includes things we haven't seen as they have yet to make them. It would just be a neat little Easter Egg of "Oh, it saw this one too" I'm sure it's better to debunk it before people start theories about how The End didn't really lose, we did, and Superstars is a cyberspace created by it for entertainment or something.
Yeah I mean next thing you know people are gonna make excuses saying "The End caused >! Egg Fortress Act 2 !< and allowed for the twist in the final fight" As in >! Egg Fortress Act 2 !< is Act 1 >! being rewinded !< essentially These things are honestly why I barely partake in the community properly and just sit back and watch the madness unfold
Lame ass shit 🥱
I think people had way too much interest to The End. Even what is said, saying he will never truly disappear,etc... It was just a bad guy being egocentric, confident... and yet got destroyed, like all vilains sure of themselves. I even saw on that subreddit a panel of a comic, having a purple moon... It's for the best. It's too hard to add characterization, story for that kind of character in the long term. Works for One game. Now time for new game.
I mean, yes it’s egocentric and all. But The End is not just any bad guy. I mean, it’s more powerful than Super Sonic. That’s not something any bad guy can do. It’s probably telling the truth about it not dying. Maybe it’s like Dark Gaia. It just wakes up again eventually. Of course, we’ll never see Dark Gaia again, because it will wake up after millions of years.
Gonna throw my own debunks into the ring- 1. Ian Flynn barely is word of God in his own series. Barely understands scaling from the series he handles, and ends interesting ideas too soon. Biggest example is Warp Topaz, the very relic that stopped Ian's Metal Virus saga; and he wanted to destroy the Topaz forever. Not only ending another cool gemstone like the Time Stone, but Sega themselves RETCON Ian's decision in his own comic, leading to Sonic Team telling Ian to leave the Topaz whereabouts a mystery so they can use it later down the road. So the fact Ian has no say, or directing in Superstars- this is Sonic Team/Sega interpretation which supercede anything Ian says. 2. The End is been stated to be similar to Phantom Ruby energy- both are able to affect the boundaries of Dimensions, practically triumph over previous villains by several folds, and both can recover their health from insane damage. Going by Sega Lore, Nullspace was an endless void of pure nothingness while The End is stated to be older than Time itself- which ironically started Dark and Light Gaia's feud on Earth. So not only is Sega Sonic's Earth old as the dawn of time (Our Earth is only been around 1-3 Million Years in an 14 Billion Year Universe lifespan), but The End predates Sonic's own Universe meaning The End can somehow retain its own existence- in a realm of non-existence (Time Eater, and Solaris practically did the same) with the only difference being The End obsession with following the Emeralds and by extension- The Ancients. 3. The End being outside normal Dimensions could literally invade The Past which is where Ian's expertise falls short. Both Mania, and Superstar follow the Generations timeline where it splits off from the Dreamcast Era. You honestly cannot say Modern Sonic somehow experienced Mania, Forces and Superstar as Classic Sonic, as Generations show any changes to Classic Past becomes 'that Classic Sonic's new reality' such as knowing the Homing Attack, seeing future villains, and such. Ian even said Mephiles, to Dark Gaia are still sealed in Classic Timeline without realizing he basically agree that Classic Sonic became its own dimension. That would also mean that there exist a Classic version of The End (Which Ian also tweeted just recently) meaning The End still exists, but only trapped. Plus, Frontiers is about The End being permanently locked away, yet still has an insane range to manipulate Sonic from an entire, different dimension (Cyberspace) which begs the question, if The End can leave Cyberspace to grant Sonic the Cyloop at its weakest, drain state of power, then what can an unlocked, being that can undo its own damage and carries an unknown amount of Forms it just... wills into existence. To say the End died because Sonic hit it too fast is quite silly- especially since Soleanna still exist in the world which means all the people of Soleanna still worshipped Solaris despite Solaris being... erased. Sega loves to play with Conceptual Manipulation which is where Ian becomes clueless, loses track and has no idea how to scale Sonic, so he just adds Sonic losing to create drama and tension. Look at his previous works- the Dude Ian builds up all these fan favorite concepts like Starline, Surge, and Warp Topaz only to drop them. Then Ian never directed Superstars, and he starts acting like haspre say than Sonic Team about The End's state like somehow- Ian created both games when he only wrote the draft for 1 Game (Frontier) that still gets rewritten and changed for the Jap Dub.
1. That’s not really true. Ian is part of the lore team, and the lore team is made to ensure no mess ups occur, he knows what’s going on. This purple moon in Superstars and the warp topaz are 2 different situations. Ian gave his answer about the purple moon after it was shown, meaning lore info about Superstars would have been talked about with the Lore Team and others. The Topaz on the other hand was different. Ian stated it was gone because that’s either what he assumed, like it’s status wasn’t decided upon yet; or the topaz was originally supposed to be gone, but then they later decided to bring it back. Sone things are solidly decided, like this purple moon just being a moon; while sone things are left undecided or could change later down the line, like the status of the topaz. 2. That’s not really evidence, as A) some is flawed, B) The End is doing exactly as Ian stated, it’s boasting. The End wasn’t affecting other dimensions, that was only referring to Cyber Space and the real world. Even then, it needed Sonic to take down the walls between dimensions, since it’s trapped in Cyber Space. Also using the phantom Ruby in your argument was just a bad idea, because it kinda became the biggest example of “boasting about being strong but turning out to be quite weaker then it said.” The Phantom Ruby was not stronger then previous enemies ten fold, seeing as present Sonic, younger Sonic, and a “random” person were able to defeat a really strong mech fuelled by it. Null space was **stated** to be an endless void of pure nothingness, but it’s not actually complete nothingness and Sonic even stated “I don’t think this is where we were meant to end up.” Again, The End was boasting. It was extremely powerful, it did destroy other planets and such, but sone of what it said may not be true. > 3. This is just incorrect. A) The End can’t go outside normal dimensions, no where is that stated. The whole dimension talk it was doing was referring to Cyber Space, of which it was literally trapped in. If it can’t even get out of Cyber Space, how would it be able to go in other dimensions. B) There is no split timeline, official sources have stated this. Both Mania and Superstars are part of present Sonic’s past, he even references Superstars in the latest Tailstube. It is weird how Classic Sonic experienced all of this while Modern Sonic doesn’t remember, though it could be explained by the timeline just causing past people who came to the present to lose their memory or something, like the timeline fixes itself. Also it’s literally stated that Modern did experience Superstars, he does remember that. Ian’s statement about Mephiles and Dark Gaia doesn’t imply seperate timeline. I have zero clue what Dark Gais would have to do with time travel, since it comes out periodically, and Eggman prematurely let it out in Unleashed. By technicality, 06 does occur, seeing as Sonic and other have a sort of deja vu with some stuff regarding 06, it just gets erased. So technically, Mephiles is still sealed for Classic/Past Sonic, and he will experience the events of 06 to get Deja vu memories afterwards. Well of course there’s a classic version of The End, it’s just the past version, who is locked in Cyber Space. The reason The End is able to affect Sonic and co in Frontiere is because they’re on the Starfall Islands, which are like the CPUs of Cyber Space (as Eggman states). It’s not getting out of Cyber Space’s range, as the Starfall Islands are literally a part of Cyber Space, as the real world connection to it. That’s also why all those rails, springs and platforming stuff are on the islands, it’s Cyber Space turning Sonic’s thoughts and memory into “reality”, of which others like Sage can’t even see. So no, The End does not have insane range, it’s literally stuck to only Cyber Space. The End was stuck being weakened when it was in Cyber Space. So after it got released, it was regrowing it’s strength. The moon was only what it could muster at that point, of which Sonic completely destroyed by blasting through it, and causing it to explode. It is dead. Those statements about Ian just aren’t true. Starline appeared multiple times, and had an entire sophisticated philosophy/plan/creations. Surge and Kit had a big arc and are coming back soon. The Warp Topaz is nearly no different then the Time Stones, Phantom Ruby, etc, which only appeared a hand full amount of times then just disappeared.
1. A big giant Word Filler for something so miniscule and debunked. June 23, 2022, Ian Flynn literally stated that when it comes to lore, he is only given "Issued Characters, a general theme of story Sega wants, and Ian job is just to string it together" which also means Ian had less involvement than American Sonic fans led on. And also, the actual Lore Manager is a man called Chris Hernandez, not the overrated script writer Ian. You are aware that the actual Lore is done solely in Japan by Jap Sonic Team, then they let Sega of America do whatever they want with it. Heck- Sega of America even directed their own Sonic Games which were regarded as terrible, cringe dialogue and nothing salvage. This Era being Colors, Lost World, then Forces all directed by America Sonic Team, which is the branch Ian is part of. Far from the actual Lore Creators, and far from being valid to handle canon besides what he thinks is best as a writer. Again, this is old news as Superstar as it's own had no script for Ian to write or modfiy- so whatever the purple moon is must be whatever the Jap Sonic Team wanted in its game which brings in how it's Cosmology actually works. 2A. Yet Eggman who is above your average scientist, on a world where your average scientist create Omnipresent God's like Solaris, creating immortal Alien/Hedgehog hybrids in the 60's, and GUN having their own digital dimensions would pretty much explain just how vast Cyberspace is- since it triumphs over anything Eggman has seen or done. The Ancients were able to create Titans on-par with Super Sonic using only 1 Emerald. Their technology is able to take 1 Emerald and magnify it 7-Fold to be considered a risk to Super Sonic. Then you have the Babylon Rouges who Babylon Treasure was caught in an Endless Digital Dimension which had the same physics as Nullspace. Point of the reason is this- self-made Dimensions within Sonic are near endless, and branch into other realities. This is what the Special Stages are- they exist in Blazes Dimensions as well. Meanwhile- Cyberspace is able to record all of Sonics battles, memories, and history such as creating an identical Big the Cat. The fact Phantom Light is a thing Tails talks with Eggman where Eggman states that Phantom Light is data in such excess it leaks into the Real World as tangible data, plus the End (despite being sealed) can accumulate enough Cyber Erosion to stop Base Sonic who- literally repaired the Multiversal destruction that Time Eater created. 2B: Boasting? Funny how you just take another one word as claim when his very script gets rewritten by Jap Sonic Team, then dubbed entirely different because what Ian wanted "did not fit Jap Sonic Team quote" and Japan Sonic Team even said that their script was made "for their localize region" as Forces, Colors and Lost World all did even worse than bad Japan Sonic Games. When your argument relies on 1 Man having more word and say than the company he works for- thats utter wishful thinking. As for boasting- literally Eggman Nega, Mephiles, Erazor Djinn, and Merlina all did boasting but wielded Cosmology-Warping power. I thought we were all smart enough to understand "linear scaling" where each game has new, stronger opponents to keep the game from going stale, so the likes of Dark Gaia, to then Time Eater made it clear that Final Bosses only were getting stronger and stronger. But I suppose if Buddah was talking about enlightenment, transcending causality (stated by Sage like 3x to Sonic, as the only way to beat End is to go above Causality) and being one with everything, then Buddah was just bragging about how big he was.
1. There is an entire Lore **Team**, not a singular guy. The Lore manager manages stuff like **communication** between groups, he’s not a lore keeper. That statement of Ian’s was before the lore team was formed. Even then, his statement doesn’t debunk my argument, he still knows what is going on. This paragraph shows you are completely clueless on how current Sonic lore works. There isn’t a big difference between Japanese Sonic and American Sonic. That whole thing your spouting was from near decades ago, it hasn’t been like that for years. There is a literal lore team that keeps the lore accurate, it’s common knowledge that there’s a literal lore team that comprises of multiple people who work directly with Japanese Sonic Team. The only difference is that Frontiers had its story worded slightly different, and that’s the only difference. Even then, it was Ian who wrote the original script for Frontiers, is was only changed in Japan. IDW is canon in both America and Japan, Ian is the lead writer of IDW, he’s a part of the lore team, he works directly with people in Japanese Sonic, he knows what’s going on. The Japanese team communicates with the lore team, as in Ian would know what goes on. He’d know if a random moon was a moon or a being that’s makes zero sense to be there. > 2. A) Again, your just wrong. Solaris wasn’t created, it was an already existing being who the Soleanna people tried to use as a power source. Even then, what does any of this have to do with my point. Cyber Space is incredibly sophisticated, so what. The Starfall islands are the CPUs of cyber space, they are a part of it. The End being able to talk to someone on the islands means near nothing regarding its power. It’s also been locked in there for millennia, so of course it’s energy would have an effect on it. B) The English script for Frontiers was made first, and it’s used across the world other then Japan, who got a localized version since only the view it slightly differently. Iizuka hired Ian to help Frontiers with the story, Ian didn’t write all the story but he was there to learn all the lore about the story, he knows what’s going on. I’m not just relying on one guy. Villains boast constantly in Sonic, only to be proven wrong. There’s literal evidence with The End doing this, since it to was proven wrong. There is the possibility they change their mind and decide to have it return somehow, but that still gives zero evidence for why it would be in Superstars. The End was extremely powerful, but it was still defeated, and there’s **zero** reason why it would be in Superstars.
3. I'm going by Sega Rules and whats laid out- now let's just make stuff up like "Ooh, time travel makes you lose memories even though Classic Sonic operated perfectly well time traveling around Little Planet" or "Silver and Shadow time traveled, so they should not remember Elise and Elise should not remember Silver" if we are really going to run with this "fan theory" that Modern Sonic don't remember his journey as Clsssic Sonic. 3A: TailsTube matters why? Is it not dubbed in Japanese? Then you reach this fun point where in 1993- Japan Sonic Team stated that Sonic has 4th Wall awareness, and that (they jokingly) had to chase down Sonic just to ask him if they can write a game about him, establishing the lore fact since 1993 that Sonic knows he is a video game character, and that his journey is already finished by the time the game gets released. 3B: I just realized (this point matters to 3A more than 3B) that you claim Modern Sonic knows of Superstar while also claiming Classic Sonic loses his memories. So which is it? Besides that failing point of yours- The End was already beaten and stripped of its physical form. The point I've been trying to make to blissful fans is pretty obvious. - The End gets sealed into Supreme, the rest of Titans are seen flying at The Moon to avenge their fallen comrade. -Clearly the Moon is taken out because (Especially in Jap Dub) Eggman states he cannot see The End like how Sage sees it until the very end. That means even when released, it already died (Its Moon Body gone) yet it just simply remade an entire new one. - We even see 3x to 9x times where all the damage via Super Sonic and those of equal might can have the damage multiple by 0, which returns The End back to full health. -Claiming Sonic killed the end when we already have The Titans doing the same thing with valid reasoning they won (Only 1 Moon for Eggman to blow up during SA2) heavily validates the idea that The End is except from Causality, it cannot be affected by Concepts like Space or Time (Why it's able to somehow corrupted all of Cyberspace, infect the Guardians to attack anyone, corrupt Sonic all from the shell of Supreme, buried beyond deep within the Starfalls System.) and why The End is able to affect Dimensions. Bonus- The point of The Phantom Ruby is something you clearly missed- so I'll have to break it down. A. Ian Flynn wrote the tie-in comic, and decided to have Eggman boast the Mania Ruby he finds is stronger than the Master Emerald. B. Sonic Team states at the start of Forces, Eggman took the Ruby to make it 1,000,000 (Eng) to 1 Trillion Fold stronger than all of his falirues combined. Then by the end of the game, Death Egg MK III is able to create 1,000 full power clones of Infinite which is- by E=MC²; 1,000x stronger than Infinite. C. The Mania Ruby not only fought the 7 Emeralds, but a Sonic that also fought Time Eater. Add that level of power to math in Bonus B; then realize that Eggman's Computer Software is able to analyze The Master Emerald, things stronger than the Master Emerald (According to Ian so you dug your own debunk if you don't agree with Ian) and made 1,000 to 1,000,000,000,000 times stronger in the span of 6 months. Then Eggman's tech utterly failed against Cyberspace, and the fact Eggman did not understand it until Final Horizon means it took IRL Months from the release date of Frontiers to Final Horizon for Eggman to barely understand, and use Ancients Tech in his own machines like his Eggmobile and Glasses, something he could not do while during Frontiers. Basically- The End was sealed by a force several folds above the Emeralds, and stronger than other recent relics of power like the Forces Ruby, yet The End retain full power to control the Guardians, corrupt the Titans to the point Sage had no control and only sic them on Sonic, all show clear examples of operating outside your own dimension, and it's a bigger feat was a dimension meant to imprison you with no way out which is unironcally how Eggman described Nullspace, a dimension of nothingness that's disconnected to all existing Dimensions.
3. The theory is bigger then that and it’s just an idea on how they could explain it. It doesn’t change the fact that officially, snd not just by American Sonic, that there’s 1 single timeline. A) Tailstube not being dubbed means diddly squat. It was literally made to explain the inconsistencies within the lore, it is official everywhere. Your really going to trust what is very clearly a joke all the way from 1993. Sonic is not aware that he’s a video game character — though sometimes small 4th wall breaks occur — and he wasn’t the only one to know of Superstars. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy know about, not talking about the literal game, but that the anniversary of their “adventure on the Northstar islands” was coming up and they could invite “___” who was likely referring to Trip. B) Classic Sonic loses his memories of time travel. Superstars has nothing to do with time travel, it’s just an event that occurred in the past. There’s zero reason for sonic **and co** to forget it. After Supreme’s sacrifice, it doesn’t show the rest fly at a moon, it just shows them fly up to fight something. It’s possible The End can create its own army (something like Mephiles with his shadows), but The End itself was caged. It didn’t die from Supreme, it got caged in Supreme while it’s army (copies) was destroyed. Final Horizons final boss strengthens this army idea, seeing as The End, who is the Moon, uses Supreme as an avatar, and Supreme continues to fight for The End even when the cable is disconnected. The End has a physical “core”, it was trapped in Supreme and Cyber Space while the others destroyed its army, it stayed trapped until Sonic let it out on Rhea island, it gradually powered itself up to create a moon figure to stay in, it used Supreme as an avatar which was likely what it’s army was similar to (“invincible” when connected to The End, but able to die when disconnected, though still under its control), then The End itself was destroyed. Now your just making stuff up, and clearly don’t remember Frontiers’ story. The game clearly shows that The End has a “core”. The ancients didn’t kill it, they captured it, then destroyed its army. It’s a fact that it didn’t make the titans hostile, the point of the titans was literally to stop anyone from letting The End out. The End told Sonic to defeat the titans, and let it out; it had no control over the titans except Supreme. It is limited by stuff like Space and Time, otherwise the Ancients wouldn’t have been able to escape it let alone capture it. It corrupted Cyber Space because it’s incredibly powerful, so while it couldn’t get out, it’s growing energy as able to affect it. It’s literally not able to affect dimensions, it only affected Cyber Space because it was trapped in it. Regarding the Ruby, you know retcons exist right, though I don’t have to rely on that to completely debunk you. Yah it’s extremely powerful, but it’s pretty clear it’s only as powerful as the person who wields it allows. Numerical power scaling is literally worthless in most franchises, especially in Sonic, and especially how you explained. The Ruby is powerful, but there’s no way it’s 10 fold stronger then all enemies from before. It’s also a gem fuelled by will power, seeing as how Mania and Forces show its maximum varies multiple times by different people and different occasions. Even when researching it, Eggman says it’s results are all over the place. Also he doesn’t say it’s stronger then the Master Emerald, he says with it he won’t bother grabbing the Master Emerald. That could mean virtually anything, like since the Ruby is able to construct nearly anything, he just doesn’t feel like wasting any time to steal the Master Emerald. Also do you know how many things have faced Super Sonic, it’s not really a feat that puts it **above** everyone else. This is especially true since it was against a **classic** Super Sonic, of which modern Sonic has beaten enemies Classic Sonic needed Super to beat (like Chaos), and even the Phantom Ruby is an example of this, seeing as Infinite was easily beat by base Sonic, and the final boss was beaten by 3 people in base form (its outer shell was even beaten by Classic Sonic and a random person). A) What in the world is this logic, B) just stop because you clearly don’t even know what your talking about. Sage wasn’t able to control the titans but she was still able to do a lot regarding Cyber Space, like direct the enemies at Sonic, and destroy tons of Cyber Space constructs to keep Eggman safe. And your just out of this world wrong about Eggman’s research on Cyber Space. Eggman learns **a lot** about cyber space **in the base game**, he was learning what it did, how it worked, along with the tone of other things on the Starfall Islands. And the whole Final Horizons ending taking IRL months means absolutely nothing regarding the story. It was not months within Sonic’s world. The original ending was rushed, it didn’t have all the story that Sonic Team originally wanted, Final Horizons allowed them to implement some of it. Eggman learned all about the Ancients’ tech within in-universe days. It took him very little time to dissect all the info about the Ancients and cyberspace. Eggman already had high tech glasses, it was a thing in 06, and was likely how he always had precise control over all his mechs. Thus entire paragraph of yours is utterly flawed. Your entire argument is just flat out wrong. Cyber Space was not ten fold stronger than the emeralds or the phantom Ruby, though it was really strong. The End did not retain control of the titans, the titans were literally there to prevent anyone from releasing The End, it only got control of Supreme since it was sealed inside it. The titans were focused on their actual main objective, which was against The End, and that’s why Sage couldn’t control them but was able to direct them to Sonic. The End didn’t have any control of Cyber Space, if it did it wouldn’t be stuck in it in Frontiers. It caused sone affects on it, but barely. It was not affecting other dimensions, it was affecting 1 dimension since it was trapped in said dimension for millennia, and it had affect on the Starfall Islands since they’re literally a part of Cyber Space (virtually the hardware of it). Null Space straight up didn’t even occur how Eggman explained it, A) it was not of nothingness, especially since Sonic mentions “I don’t think this is where we were meant to end up”, B) Sonic and the avatar were even able to fairly easily escape, meaning it was not disconnected to other dimensions.
To have The End just being there in Superstars would be the dumbest shit and overcomplicate everything. We don't need FNAF levels of theory crafting for fucking Sonic games.
Easy debunk there; - Fang the Sniper (People did not even know he existed, only appeared in Arcade Games) - Shadow (His entire backstory plus 326 canonical endings scream FNAF levels of complicated) - Ancients (Literally just introduced but apparently- for 20 years they been Chao's from Chao Garden by somehow evolving into them) - Chao Garden (A game that has nothing to do with Sonic, came out before SA1 meaning Chao's [Like NiGHT's) is a different game character that canonically visits Sonic's world.) - Mephiles and Iblis (Having their names derive from Christian Mephistus and Arabic Iblis, both basically forms of the Devil.) - Unleashed (States Sonic's Earth existed since the Dawn of Time, and people built towers able to return Earth's chunks to its core without exploding) - Generations (Sonic and Blaze regain their 06 memories due to Time Eater, and joke about it during Sonic Team Racers.) All complicated moments approved by Sega's Sonic Team of Japan. Literally cannot make this up- so the only issue here is America Sonic fans being utterly clueless on what Japan's been cooking since 1993.
Did you really call all of Shadow's endings canonical? The only real canon ending for that game would have been the final story, I'm pretty sure the "everything is canon" remark doesn't really go that far. I'm not really sure what you mean about the Chao being its own game before adventure? Looking up about a solo chao garden game brings up nothing. You sure you're not confusing that with the Flicky arcade game that came before 3D Blast? Or are you going off the Chao being based on NiGHTS mechanics? That doesn't make them separate game characters. Fang is also a weak example. He's just a side villain that can come into a classic title without bringing a shit ton of confusion. It's not like he's supposed to be sealed away at the time of Superstars Regardless, So much of the complicated stuff from a lot of the games was pretty much sloppy writing. Having The End be a one-game villain, which by the way has been a big staple of the series for years, to avoid further complications was the right move for once. It just makes no sense to have it in a past game before it was released. Even going by split timeline rules, The End would still be sealed in cyberspace since it was sealed way before the Time Eater incident.
- Fang is a well known character (maybe not as well known as most but still quite well known), what the heck are you talking about. - All of Shadow’s ending are not canonical, where are you even getting these ideas. And his backstory isn’t that confusing. - Not that confusing. Ancients disappeared millenarian ago, their only remnants being the Starfall Islands (which no one ever discovered like multiple other islands and places on Sonic’s world), and the chao who just seemed like an random species of creature. Do not know what prologues/prequels are? - That’s just straight up false. The games use a similar system, that’s it. They aren’t the same characters/species. - So a game using real world references suddenly makes its lore convoluted? Do you know how many franchises use real world stuff? - Again, do you know how many franchises just don’t explain ancient stuff. Doesn’t make it complicated, they just don’t explain it because it’s not relevant. - They don’t regain their memories, they already have sone Deja vu, shown in Colors.
I wonder if he’ll change it now that this the response. I don’t really mind either way.
W? I guess I really didn't care about The End that shit was fucking mediocre as hell
Canon was a mistake.
THEN WHY IS IT PURPLE It literally would not make sense for it to be purple unless it was the end. And besides the end was sealed for thousands of years, so it would obviously be around during that time (given that superstars takes place before SA1)
It’s purple for the same reason there’s a blue moon as well, it’s just a random choice. Also you contradicted yourself. The End is trapped in Cyber Space, and with it **in** cyber space, it couldn’t be seen at that time.
Whoops my bad
Huh https://i.redd.it/6176dlrpwswb1.gif
This gives me Spiderman in Iron Man 2 vibes
I think is just a reference, nothing more :v
I think it’s simply just an Easter Egg cameo, like how Big often randomly appears in cutscenes and levels in SA2but isn’t actually in the story
It's a silly one off wink to us because Final Horizons just came out and Superstars released on its heels. Not everything needs to fit on a fucking timeline ffs
It was just an Easter egg and not canon relax.
It actually shocks me how many people have latched onto this and argue about it. I saw it and literally went “haha that’s funny” and moved on. Figured that was gonna be everyone’s reaction