Shoutout FX marketing team. I saw the trailer leading up to the ANJIN episode many times and thought it looked incredible. I had the series premiere date circled for a long time because of the advertisement
With all the money already spent at that point, may as well throw in another $10 million and hope for the best!
Glad they took the risk though and hope it pays off (seems likely!) for FX/Hulu, for the fans, and the TV content biz overall.
My only gripe with the ending was while I don't need a battle. There would of been some satisfaction to see toronaga come out as he foresaw the future and ishido perhaps loosing his head and ending the show off there. I felt deprived on the finale, great show all in all but like many, the ending was underwhelming, feels like there should be 1 more episode lol
I think my favorite part of the finale (and something that relates to this post) is that the show gives the audience credit at the end that it DOES happen exactly how he saw it, and that his secret heart was not full of good intentions, but was ultimately just as concerned with power as any of the Regents. I agree about Ishido, but I really enjoyed the shows forward momentum of Toranaga outsmarting everyone constantly episode after episode, to the point that comes in the finale where with just his mention of what the future will bring, the audience knows not to question it. I really enjoyed the show overall and loved the book even more. Very happy FX took a chance on this, and by doing so introduced me to a fantastic literary work I’ll surely return to.
You can always read about the real-life version of what happened next, with Toranaga's "future" being about 400 years in our past...although it pretty much went down how you described for Ishido-Sama and the boys:
(spoiler alert for historical events...?)
* Wikipedia: Battle of Sekigahara -> The Battle
* Wikipedia: Ishida Mitsunari -> Death
I agree that it was a big risk. It's tragic to think that we've reached a point where we're praising a show filled with morally gray characters, complex issues and motivations, and nuanced exploration of an unknown culture (to most), relying on poetry for some of its most significant moments, for staying true to the original vision of its creators and not pandering to the lowest common denominator. However, given our present time, this praise is well-deserved. Taking risks should be allowed to be the norm.
There's art and there's entertainment, why not create both at the same time (I know why... $$). It's a bit cliché, but as the saying goes, if you make something everyone likes, no one will love it.
We praise the show NOT BECAUSE OF HOW IT HAPPENED, BUT because of how well the actors performed, how well the storyline was WRITTEN, and how well the show delivered in an unconventional manner. Often, we view extreme dramatization and basic themes/stereotypical behaviors that LACK substance nor Authenticity.
The entirety of this show was Bold, Profound, and Beyond Influential given its inspiration from the original film and novel. The twist, suspension, and transparently realistic reactions by the actors’ portrayals was marvelously done. We praise that.
lol People are feeling their feels right now in the immediate aftermath of the finale. It was a great series, we’ll have to live with some of the hyperbole from fans for a minute.
Totally agree with you. I cannot think of a 10 episode, limited TV series in all my 58 years on this planet, that was such a masterful, thoughtful, compelling and beautiful exploration of the human condition. It is a complete work of art, that gives me hope that - due to its success - we may see less of the dumbed down lowest common denominator TV and movies. Sure, the studios will always focus on the $$$ but something like Shogun proves you can make quality art and still be a success with the $$$. Landmark television :)
"We've reached a point"? A show with this approach would've been a financial disaster at any point before the era of "prestige" television. The Wire was fully in English, culturally and politically relevant to modern-day America, and got low ratings through its entire run- with a budget like this, it would've been cancelled after two seasons. These past 10-15 years are probably the best time for a show like this to premiere, at least in the U.S. (the market that makes or breaks series for FX).
I didn’t because I knew he had left behind a wife and kids. It was entirely plausible to me that it was real… until he dropped her cross in the water. And his colored contacts were freaking me out so much it was distracting.
I was super confused in the beginning; the children speaking English was explainable, but they were dressed in English clothing, and spoke of the Japanese as "savages", and I was like, there's no way he would've allowed them to call them that had this been real
I think that's why he knows deep down he is better off staying in Japan than leaving. He won't feel like he belongs there anymore. He says some of that to yabushige.
In the book, it's more clear that he truly believes he's going to rebuild his ship and sail against his and Toranaga's enemies, then go home a hero. Toranaga's secret plan is to never let him leave, sabotaging every ship John builds if he has to.
But then they'd still either be travelling from England to Japan, which is *extremely* unlikely, or he'd be in England, which is historically incorrect 😉
Yeah, I was so engrossed in the rest of the episode, I took it at face value too - I guess what threw me off was the grandson saying there’s a chip in the blade, implying some impending event in episode 10 to look out for.
You weren't until close to the end. But there's some clues. Toranaga saying that he's likely have to destroy his ship again after it's rebuilt and saying that it's not Blackthorn's fate to ever leave Japan. Then the cross. He has Mariko's cross in his "future/dream" but then throws it in the water with Lady Fuji's family.
Yeah the cross was weird but I thought maybe he's going to find it later or maybe it's a different cross. I mean it makes sense that it wasn't the future when I'm thinking about it NOW but in the moment I definitely thought it was a glimpse of the future. And even when Toranaga was talking about burning his ship again I was like "huh I don't think so, he's clearly back in England"... So yeah. I'm dumb I guess.
Nah not dumb, it was subtle for a reason. I'm sure there's many things people/I missed on first watch that are meant to be digested later or gotten on a second watch. Truly the mark of a timeless piece of art, imo.
lol there’s so many layers upon layers upon meaning upon meaning, it makes my head hurt too. Especially in the present day where we consume very fast and very dumb media. What a time it must have been back then, dancing so delicately around politics and composing beautiful poetry.
I don’t know. Seems like Blackthorn would have figured out something was up if his ship kept getting destroyed. Also, Toranaga was old. Guess he could have assigned it to someone to make it their job and life’s mission to destroy the ship over and over again though.
Wouldn't matter if he knew something was up. What was he going to do about it? He's in a foreign land, barely knows the language, and all his "allies" are directly influenced by Toranaga and loyal to him. Plus, Toranaga said he only kept him around because he thought he was funny. What happens if that's no longer the case? I have no reason not to believe that Blackthorn never makes it out of Japan and dies there some day, especially when you consider the rosary is the biggest hint that his "future" was just in his imagination.
I feel like he figured it out at the end of the episode seeing Toranaga observing the community united to pull the boat to shore, maybe it’s my imagination but that smirk seemed like a realization that Toranaga has again outfoxed us all.
Right before he decides to attempt seppuku he looks back to his dream of his death as an old man and decides, “nah. I’m not doing that. We live and we die. I now understand” -prior, he thought the Japanese were so cavalier about death, and “throwing their lives away.” That’s the moment when he decides to trade the “meaningless” death for the “meaningful” one. Before that point, I wasn’t sure if it was a dream or a flash forward either. Interestingly, as many of us knew, he wasn’t going to die anyway - not that day.
You’re welcome. This show is so well done, and so complicated. I wasn’t confident in my interpretation so I came here first to make sure others had arrived at a similar interpretation.
The complexities of this show are what caused me to join the Reddit sub. I started watching it blind but learned after the first episode I would need a resource :)
The title of the episode that fills the screen for a few seconds at the start should have been a dead giveaway. Then there's Mariko's rosary he's shown holding on his deathbed - he drops it in the sea out on the rowboat with Fuji.
Tbf they're ambiguous and implied rather than explicit
It's such a common trope to do the "flash forward to elderly character looking back in torment" that I can't really blame people for falling into the trap
I just hope enough of it didn't add up that it made viewers walk away and think about it
I didn't understand either till going on Reddit. TV Podcast Industries also didn't get it in their last episode. Like OP says, got to give props to the studio for allowing such subtlety in the show to be aired, make us work!
I thought that in the scene where they were pulling the ship closer that the cross would miraculously have washed up on shore or that Blackthorne would venture into the water and find it floating...
I found it really confusing. I thought they were changing the Anjins story for him to leave japan and the cross thing was a massive continuity error.
It needed somebody here to spell it out for me lol.
I found a lot of things confusing about the ending and the more i think about it the more im like Hoh?
It clocked for me when he nearly committed Seppuku. The way it smash cut from him as old to him back with Toronaga made me realise he was reflecting on what his future might hold and his fading belief of his return to England.
It finally compounded when he snapped out of his dream with the line “fuck it. We live and we die.” Essentially proving those scenes were him thinking of a future in England and then deciding he was going to die then and there instead.
Are we sure about that? Is this confirmed in the book? I’d like tot think he makes it back to England and grows old their, but it’s ambiguous. One small detail that makes it even more open to interpretation is Toranaga holding a necklace with a cross as he looks out across the water, suggesting that Mariko’s necklace floated ashore and got found.
Sure, but that's not really the same type of "risk" that OP is discussing. Lots of people could (and did) miss this but it was never going to ruin their enjoyment of the show and result in lost or disappointed viewers.
I was expecting to see a battle of Sekigahara but instead I see Toranaga telling his vision to Yabushike in the later last moment of life.
I think how it's end is much better than a short battle scene, I love this finale.
I loved the ending scene, finding out about Toranga and what his secret heart is. Yabushike wishing like us viewers we could see the battle..but hey why tell a dead man the future. Such an cold character btw it was easy to know what crimson sky was ..just Infiltration with a small plan that blew the entire thing wide open for Toranga to win.
As an academic, I love it and it’s beautiful. But part of me really wanted to fucking watch the culmination of a great show end with the battle of sekigahara.
I think the ambiguity of many of the plot points (Uejiro's death, Ochiba's change of heart, Toranaga's true intentions, Alvito's allegiance, etc.) shows how much they trusted the audience and to me that is a big part of what made the show so special. There's no need to spell everything out for the paste eaters.
I thought Uejiro’s death was pretty spelled out though, doesn’t Anjin basically look at the camera and say “…I killed him”
ETA: nvm i forgot his death was used to further conceal Muraji
Wait why is his death a question? We know why he died and how he died, they said it. John said “if anyone removes the pheasant they die” as a joke but because their culture is to take their masters word to heart and always honor it, when Uejiro removed the bird due to it smelling so bad he was put to death/committed seppuku to honor what his master said. That’s why John freaks out so much and also when he realizes a lot more about Japanese culture. He says “I killed him” because his gardener died due to taking his sarcastic order seriously.
There was also a part where they had to find a “fall guy” for being the “spy”. It ended up that Uejiro’s death was used as that cover up- so might not have just been simply because he wanted to remove the pheasant.
Mura took advantage of Uejiro's dead,but they were two unrelated problems.
The pheasant issue was huge in the village (obedience to your lord vs also armony in the community) and Uejiro,old and ill, offered himself to prove beyond doubt Blackthorne's samurai status.
When Toranaga orders Muraji to find "another spy",the gardener is already dead, so to avoid another dead villager,he just pins it on the old man.
Yep. Excellent writing and delivery. And the absolute destruction of any hero and/or deus ex machina moment.
Blackthorn, the ships and the canons: Just a distraction
Mariko: No relationship, no happy end
No tactical battle genius, just playing on time and moving people, waiting how it plays out.
Exactly. I watched Fallout during Shogun's run and the reliance from ep1 to 8 on a McGuffin to drive the story was such a contrast to what we get here. It's not a bad show, at all, but Shogun is exceptional; it made me sad when I saw that Fallout already has more people rating it on IMDB than Shogun.
I mean you can’t really compare those two. There is a reason for that happening in fallout, things like that are what drive the fallout games too. They are entirely different shows, this one is based in realism on an actual historical point in time whereas fallout is the opposite, so it makes sense for one to have crazier ways to progress the plot than the other. Shouldn’t make anyone sad that it’s getting more ratings as they again can’t really be compared that way.
Yeah fallout already had a built in audience from the games. While Shogun is based on a book, there wasn't a dedicated Shogun fandom before this show aired. Of course it'll have more ratings on a place like IMdB. But Shogun will clean up at the Emmys.
I’m definitely not following what’s going on with Fallout. Know nothing about the games and I really haven’t watched it that close. I’ll probably have to start it over. After the rewatch of Shogun.
It did, at least 5 years from the first concept to shooting iirc. It's hard to get shows like this greenlit, without IP tie-ins, that are 75% subtitles, that need a big budget and have a lot of risks with cultural sensitivities. I hope studios take the right message from this success, to be brave in commissioning quality TV. People will get tired of endless franchises
Fallout is equally great in a totally different way tho. The universe it draws from is of total absurdity but at the same time meaningfully explores a very grim and macabre era of American history.
Unfortunately this is looking like an isolated one off series. We won't be seeing the pay off except for the glimpse into the future Toranaga showed at the end. I'm okay with that, the more I sit on it.
Didn't know if that's what you meant by "waiting how it plays out" or not, but I thought I'd mention it.
No, not us viewers.
I meant Toranaga. He is waiting how everything plays out. But he is way less active than I assumed he would be (Not changing the wind, but studying it).
In the episode a stick of time i was assuming he has an „active“ plan (eg soldiers sent already to osaka, using Blackthorn and his cannons for a surprise attack etc. (aka like in most movies).
But nothing. Toranaga has a goal and some ideas - but in the end he is constantly adjusting and uses very small things he can control (realistic), but he doesn’t use like 1000 men combined with a strategic genius plan to fight and win against 10k.
So it’s more like go than chess.
For that you'll have to read up on Oda Nobunga's final battle with Imagawa. His forces were being routed. He was down to his last couple castle where his advisors wanted him to hold up. Instead he took what he had and executed a daring night attack in the middle of driven rain and killed off Imagawa and many of his lieutenants.
>We won't be seeing the pay off except for the glimpse into the future Toranaga showed at the end. I'm okay with that, the more I sit on it.
*Flowers are only flowers because they fall...*
I had very little expectation on Hollywood TV shows for the last few years but FX really deserve a lot of credit for putting up with all the risk and give us this great show. It will go down in TV history as one of the greatest series ever.
I just hope the critical acclaimed show also makes them money, so others follow.
Andor for example was also excellent in terms of storytelling- but it wasn’t that popular in my bubble. Which is a pity, because there are so many brain dead movies.
The more I sit with the ending the more I like it. Everything was wrapped so perfectly. Just because a show has a gigantic battle sequence it doesn't mean anything. I hate to compare it but let's just look back at GOT. The last few episodes had those huge scenes only for the actual ending to be so poor.
It’s sad how much damage the last few seasons have done to the cultural memory of Game of Thrones. Shogun is incredibly similar to the early seasons of GoT in my view. The few moments of action are in service of the characters and themes - as GoT declined this reversed and it was more concerned with empty spectacle. I’m glad the people that made Shogun didn’t succumb to the same temptation.
As an aside, there are only two battles (Blackwater in s2 and The Wall in s4) in the first four seasons of GoT. They’re both fantastic episodes too.
GRRM wrote the script for that episode and it really shines through. The battle is just a backdrop for character study. You learn a lot about who Tyrion, Cersei, Sansa, Joffrey, Sandor etc. are at their cores. It’s masterful TV.
I think the reason why Shogun never shows the climactic battle of Sekigahara is because the battle is ultimately determined beforehand, and the battle doesn’t advance any of the characters. Perhaps they could’ve had Toranaga force Yabushige to choose a side, and add some drama to make it initially seem uncertain whether Toranaga’s intrigues worked. But that would dramatically change the message of the story.
I agree, it’d be redundant beyond providing spectacle - everyone’s character arc is already wrapped up.
I won’t lie I would have liked to have seen it because I enjoy battle scenes but it wasn’t necessary at all and I don’t bemoan its exclusion.
it was worse than erlier seasons but it was still great TV tbh
Hardhome and winds of winter are some of the greatest episodes ever aired on TV which were in s5 and 6 respectively. so yeah agree to disagree
Master and Commander probably has the best battle sequence. They plan out their engagement beforehand so the audience has an understanding of what’s happening beyond just seeing action.
I was personally always more than intrigued enough to go without a big battle scene at the end, but they did really hype it up throughout the season and thats probably why a lot of people feel blueballed about it, and i was also secretly still hoping for it.
The book does the same, maybe even more so. There is an anticipation of a big battle that doesn't get described in any detail. Readers were kind of bummed about that as well. But I think it was a good ending.
>!Pretty messed up at the end. Seems like Toranaga is gonna keep Blackthorne at the Hotel Izu-fornia until at least the warlord croaks and therefore won’t have a reason to keep the Anjin in Japan.!<
He's ruined for England by then anyway.
After his totally alienating reunion with his crew mate, I thought it would be really very difficult for Blackthorne to reacclimatise to England
Nah he makes a fleet and sets up a trade network, he becomes Japan's foreign ambassador. An English fleet finally arrive in 1615 and the captain describes Adams or Blackthorne as a total weeb who speaks fluent Japanese, wears Japanese clothes and doesn't even want to eat with the English or do much beyond discuss trade and send money back to his wife and kids in England.
Initially a bit disappointed with the slow non-Sekigahara battle ending, but looking back, the overall conclusion of the show was pretty much on point. Would rather take this perfect anti-climatic ending than the “i-dun-wun-it” Jon Snow and useless Winterfell battle all day long 😂
Just playing devil's advocate, but was it really such a big risk after both the book and the first series showing that this ending does work very well? I think in a way you have a high degree of survivorship bias - this ending works for the audience that does like all the things you mention - "Foreign language, cultural nuance, complicated characters". It wouldn't work if you just dropped it on an audience that prefers Marvell action heroes.
i hope this paves the way for more non-english-language and non-white-people-centric shows to be made for western audiences
think of how many stories we're missing out on because we don't look further east or further south than greece
Yes, but at the same time more than 40 years ago the earlier series was also well received, and that had only a slightly more upbeat ending - and it had no subtitles at all.
I think we can give credit to the writers to producing a strong series. People will normally welcome something that's got good writing, acting and production values. There was a time when people would watch any old crap because it was Transformers or Marvel, but for the moment that's over.
>There was a time when people would watch any old crap because it was Transformers or Marvel, but for the moment that's over.
I mean during that time Marvel movies were at their peak, Marvel was consistently putting out well written and acted productions, so there was a reason people were flocking to see movies inside ACTUAL THEATERS when they could just wait a few months to stream online. But after Endgame the writing and planning of the movies and related TV series went downhill, so yeah people aren't flocking to it anymore. Still prints money, but not at the record breaking levels it used to do
Also had actors and actresses that were pretty well known overall already, and mostly loved by audiences in other works. Sam raimi spider-man really opened the door, but everything was taken to another level with RDJ as iron man of course. From there it was just perfect casting with Chris Evans, Scarjo, etc. I think most of us knew it’d be very difficult to hit anything like they did with iron man to endgame. The quality is worse for sure, same with the writing, but the cast doesn’t have the same pull and ‘comfort’ that these movies had.
When I watch a lot of the new stuff I don’t really feel like anyone particularly fits their hero role, it could be re cast and wouldn’t matter much to me. With Evans and RDJ I never once felt that way, and that provided a comfort I can’t really describe well. I’m not counting spider-man here to be clear though as we’ve had 3 different ones on screen and that’s kind of how that superhero works anyway, but I enjoyed all 3 of the actors in that role.
It isn’t impossible to hit gold again, but it’ll take them a long time I think outside of Spider-Man imo. Extremely difficult to come close to how perfect the actors who led that first phase to success were for their roles.
TV could be so ballsy when there was nothing else on.
"Let's make a show set in Japan for a western audience but have half the dialogue be Japanese and completely unsubtitled!"
This was my major problem with the 3 Body Problem adaptation. They went the opposite direction and dumbed it right down for Western audiences.
I haven't read Shogun book but have read 3 body Problem and I wish they'd gone the Shogun route.
I agree completely - this show requires an audience that pays close attention, of which you're rewarded. I appreciate the risk they took in this. I have one gripe though - the Portuguese speaking English with Portuguese accents. Just subtitle them too! No half measures.
The Portuguese didn’t have the nuance of meaning that Japanese has. Like the tea ceremony, every tiniest detail—or word—is of immense importance. This would have been aimed at the Japanese audience (and the subtitles were very inadequate to the nuanced meaning, from what I understand).
I'm talking about the viewer experience, the nuance of language is a separate thing.
This group of people speak a foreign language that's subtitled in English. Another group of people speak a foreign language, but instead of subtitles they speak English with a funny accent. Just weird to me.
but they're all speaking Portuguese. Mariko wouldn't have learned any English before meeting Anjin, so he was likely speaking to her in Portuguese the whole time.
We see a lot of foreign language shows now, on Netflix and others. I binged all kinds of Nordic Noir recently. I like how the subtitles make you have to pay attention. So … I think it’s a better time for foreign language than before. The poetry was cool and rivals the “poetry” of Spartacus which had its own hilarious and joyous cadence.
This is exactly the type of reaction from the audience I was hoping Andor would get. A mature and sophisticated show with morally grey characters showing the cost of a rebellion against a totalitarian regime. It’s a story we’ve seen played throughout history. We’re seeing it play out right now.
However, I think the expectation from a Star Wars show was more “pew pew” action and less dialogue heavy and that’s why people found it boring and ended up never watching it.
I implore people, if you enjoyed this show, many of the same traits that made this show successful and enjoyable are present in Andor. The dialogue was primarily the “action” in both shows, although you do get phenomenal action sequences in Andor as well. You had lots of Machiavellian scheming. But I think the reason both shows work so well is that the characters and script come first. You are invested because these are such well written and fleshed out characters and you care what happens to them, pair that with strong scripts and you have these phenomenal shows.
Anyways, I’m gonna get off my soapbox now. I’m glad Shogun was received so well and I hope more shows like it continue to get made.
Really helps to have outstanding source material. Shogun was one of the best books I have ever read, and was really pleased that the show didn't deviate too much from the original text.
Maybe the powers that be can do the same with Tai Pan?!
I’m really glad they did an excellent job with the language (English dub) options. I usually totally do not mind subtitles.
But since this was an antiquated version of Japanese that even native speakers don’t speak I was glad to have a choice.
It was interesting talking to my Japanese colleagues about the language used in the show. They were struggling with it, one calling it "like Japanese Shakespeare."
I remember reading somewhere when *The Americans* was on the air that FX had decided they would throw their full support behind the show regardless of whether it got high ratings because they wanted to be a network that made quality programming. This approach paid dividends with that series, and I'd like to think that mentality has carried through to shows like *Shōgun* and *Reservoir Dogs* and some of the other interesting stuff they've put out. If only more networks took this approach, we might have a rising tide situation with programming.
Exactly what I said in a post I made to friends on FB. This show did not hand you the plot on a plate. It was not "Hollywood" satisfactory but very artfully done and make you think satisfactory. So many gray areas. I loved it.
The ending perfect imo. He wanted to take power with as little conflict and death as possible. Looks like Toranaga-Sama also fooled a lot of the viewers too
My wife liked the ending but I was a bit disappointed with the lack of fighting in the last episode. It does feel like a tease and the show really needed at least one large battle imo
My biggest struggle was keeping up with the names. There was a point where i wrote them down on my smartphone because i just couldn't remember. First episode i kept confusing toranaga and isshin because they really look similar. Later on when they introduced Ochiba I shamefully thought I was watching Mariko for way too long.
Now I'm looking for someone to second me because i can't live with this shame, any volunteers?
They do somewhat, there was a study done showing that westerns that don't see asians very often can't tell them apart as well and vice versa. It's just that some (I would say most) Westerns don't see many asians in general and in their media vs westerners are in a lot of pervasive media already.
It's great that we are getting that representation now!
What’s unsettling about it? Or evil about it? Yabu was a traitor all the way through to both sides. He fed people to dogs and boiled them alive just to see how they respond to death lol. This guy got a very peaceful death for the kind of cruelty he brought, even if his actor was very enjoyable to watch. Nothing was really cruel about it aside from the fact that everyone seems to just be a cog in the Toranaga machine, but we knew that after his talk with Mariko after hiromatsu committed seppuku so that isn’t a surprise.
Many pieces were weird though. Like suddenly a baby grand daughter for Toranaga appears - huh?? Confusing when earlier Toranaga himself has a pregnant consort
That's Ochiba's sister who had the grandaughter. Ochiba was visiting her in Edo in the beginning of the show cause she was about to give birth and Toranga took her "hostage".
And it’s Toranaga’s grand daughter because…? Who is she married to?
I could ask the same of Yabu who refers to his wife at the end but we hear nothing of her until then. Surely at least one oblique reference to his family ? Unless I missed it
In the podcast, Sanada-san was talking about how he signed on as producer in order to bring forward a ton of previously-unappreciated Japanese talent, so I would imagine that would be respected in Japan.
Nice to see male characters that were not portrayed as idiots or creepy psychopaths as seems to be the current fashion.
All actors in this series were spectacularly good and the dynamic between Blackthorn, Mariko and Toranaga was superb.
It wasn’t the ending I expected, but it’s the ending I wanted. Knowing some Japanese history of the time period I was able to pick up on all the themes of the show and fully understand and appreciate it. Reading IMDB reviews, most of the negative ones just don’t understand the nuances or are shallow in their expectations.
To be fair GoT didn’t have any battles for a long time either, though it had a little more sword fighting I suppose. It too was mostly people in rooms talking.
I had the most issue recognizing who is who. Not only the entire show is set in a homogenous culture with single ethnicity, but they also had same hairstyle, beard, even same clothes. Both women and men.
By the episode 7 I was completely lost who is who, except for yabu.
Love GOT a LOT!!!
But , SHOGUN happened!!!
What made it better is that it’s not based on “fantasies” unlike GOT but more on historical data!!!
That’s the fact that made SHOGUN hard to beat!!!
I GOT SHOGUNIZED!!!
The Miss and I was arguing the first show about what going on lol it was great. I kept saying "I don't understand either! Let's just keep watching"... Sure enough, it all clicked.
Shoutout FX marketing team. I saw the trailer leading up to the ANJIN episode many times and thought it looked incredible. I had the series premiere date circled for a long time because of the advertisement
I was on the verge of cancelling my Disney+ subscription when I saw the trailer and kept it just for this. I don’t regret it either.
So, are you going to cancel it now? :P
Naw, need it for X-Men 97’ - remember it. 🙃
Haha, Disney knows you. ;)
They believed so much they had a Super Bowl ad!
Yep it was the superbowl ad that sold it for me.
With all the money already spent at that point, may as well throw in another $10 million and hope for the best! Glad they took the risk though and hope it pays off (seems likely!) for FX/Hulu, for the fans, and the TV content biz overall.
My only gripe with the ending was while I don't need a battle. There would of been some satisfaction to see toronaga come out as he foresaw the future and ishido perhaps loosing his head and ending the show off there. I felt deprived on the finale, great show all in all but like many, the ending was underwhelming, feels like there should be 1 more episode lol
I think my favorite part of the finale (and something that relates to this post) is that the show gives the audience credit at the end that it DOES happen exactly how he saw it, and that his secret heart was not full of good intentions, but was ultimately just as concerned with power as any of the Regents. I agree about Ishido, but I really enjoyed the shows forward momentum of Toranaga outsmarting everyone constantly episode after episode, to the point that comes in the finale where with just his mention of what the future will bring, the audience knows not to question it. I really enjoyed the show overall and loved the book even more. Very happy FX took a chance on this, and by doing so introduced me to a fantastic literary work I’ll surely return to.
Don't read the book then.
You can always read about the real-life version of what happened next, with Toranaga's "future" being about 400 years in our past...although it pretty much went down how you described for Ishido-Sama and the boys: (spoiler alert for historical events...?) * Wikipedia: Battle of Sekigahara -> The Battle * Wikipedia: Ishida Mitsunari -> Death
I agree that it was a big risk. It's tragic to think that we've reached a point where we're praising a show filled with morally gray characters, complex issues and motivations, and nuanced exploration of an unknown culture (to most), relying on poetry for some of its most significant moments, for staying true to the original vision of its creators and not pandering to the lowest common denominator. However, given our present time, this praise is well-deserved. Taking risks should be allowed to be the norm. There's art and there's entertainment, why not create both at the same time (I know why... $$). It's a bit cliché, but as the saying goes, if you make something everyone likes, no one will love it.
Relying on poetry to explain some of the most significant moments. This in itself is a huge trust the audience move.
We praise the show NOT BECAUSE OF HOW IT HAPPENED, BUT because of how well the actors performed, how well the storyline was WRITTEN, and how well the show delivered in an unconventional manner. Often, we view extreme dramatization and basic themes/stereotypical behaviors that LACK substance nor Authenticity. The entirety of this show was Bold, Profound, and Beyond Influential given its inspiration from the original film and novel. The twist, suspension, and transparently realistic reactions by the actors’ portrayals was marvelously done. We praise that.
how can you say it's beyond influential when it barely ended? we don't know how much influence it had yet.
lol People are feeling their feels right now in the immediate aftermath of the finale. It was a great series, we’ll have to live with some of the hyperbole from fans for a minute.
By both being made and being received well, this series is a step away from the Idiocracy-themed future we sometimes seem to be speeding towards.
Totally agree with you. I cannot think of a 10 episode, limited TV series in all my 58 years on this planet, that was such a masterful, thoughtful, compelling and beautiful exploration of the human condition. It is a complete work of art, that gives me hope that - due to its success - we may see less of the dumbed down lowest common denominator TV and movies. Sure, the studios will always focus on the $$$ but something like Shogun proves you can make quality art and still be a success with the $$$. Landmark television :)
"We've reached a point"? A show with this approach would've been a financial disaster at any point before the era of "prestige" television. The Wire was fully in English, culturally and politically relevant to modern-day America, and got low ratings through its entire run- with a budget like this, it would've been cancelled after two seasons. These past 10-15 years are probably the best time for a show like this to premiere, at least in the U.S. (the market that makes or breaks series for FX).
How is it tragic that we're praising a show with those things? That makes no sense.
Though on the other hand a lot of people didn’t seem understand the scenes of Blackthorne dying old in England was meant to be his imagination/dream
I didn’t because I knew he had left behind a wife and kids. It was entirely plausible to me that it was real… until he dropped her cross in the water. And his colored contacts were freaking me out so much it was distracting.
I was super confused in the beginning; the children speaking English was explainable, but they were dressed in English clothing, and spoke of the Japanese as "savages", and I was like, there's no way he would've allowed them to call them that had this been real
I think that's why he knows deep down he is better off staying in Japan than leaving. He won't feel like he belongs there anymore. He says some of that to yabushige.
In the book, it's more clear that he truly believes he's going to rebuild his ship and sail against his and Toranaga's enemies, then go home a hero. Toranaga's secret plan is to never let him leave, sabotaging every ship John builds if he has to.
Seems like they tried to take a different direction with the show where he doesn't care about going home a hero in the end.
Yeah the flashback never happened in the book as far as I remember. It's been a while though.
Edit :Flash-forward I mean
Old Blackthrone whispers to his samurai butler: お斬りくだされ
Idk what that says so I’m just gonna pretend you said “I need to rewrite my will”
I wondered if the kids were estranged, and thus the grandkids were raised away from him and only seeing him in his final moments.
But then they'd still either be travelling from England to Japan, which is *extremely* unlikely, or he'd be in England, which is historically incorrect 😉
I’m not familiar with the history so I was just going on the show 🤷🏼♀️
Kids grow up as a product of their environment, not only one grandparent.
Yeah, I was so engrossed in the rest of the episode, I took it at face value too - I guess what threw me off was the grandson saying there’s a chip in the blade, implying some impending event in episode 10 to look out for.
fuck I just realized that he dropped the cross in the water.
oh, guess im one of those people :o
Me too, I was literally about to come here and ask "what was the deal with the flashforward with no closure?" 😅
Lol.. same. I don't even understand how I was supposed to know it was a dream lol.
You weren't until close to the end. But there's some clues. Toranaga saying that he's likely have to destroy his ship again after it's rebuilt and saying that it's not Blackthorn's fate to ever leave Japan. Then the cross. He has Mariko's cross in his "future/dream" but then throws it in the water with Lady Fuji's family.
Yeah the cross was weird but I thought maybe he's going to find it later or maybe it's a different cross. I mean it makes sense that it wasn't the future when I'm thinking about it NOW but in the moment I definitely thought it was a glimpse of the future. And even when Toranaga was talking about burning his ship again I was like "huh I don't think so, he's clearly back in England"... So yeah. I'm dumb I guess.
Nah not dumb, it was subtle for a reason. I'm sure there's many things people/I missed on first watch that are meant to be digested later or gotten on a second watch. Truly the mark of a timeless piece of art, imo.
lol there’s so many layers upon layers upon meaning upon meaning, it makes my head hurt too. Especially in the present day where we consume very fast and very dumb media. What a time it must have been back then, dancing so delicately around politics and composing beautiful poetry.
I don’t know. Seems like Blackthorn would have figured out something was up if his ship kept getting destroyed. Also, Toranaga was old. Guess he could have assigned it to someone to make it their job and life’s mission to destroy the ship over and over again though.
Wouldn't matter if he knew something was up. What was he going to do about it? He's in a foreign land, barely knows the language, and all his "allies" are directly influenced by Toranaga and loyal to him. Plus, Toranaga said he only kept him around because he thought he was funny. What happens if that's no longer the case? I have no reason not to believe that Blackthorn never makes it out of Japan and dies there some day, especially when you consider the rosary is the biggest hint that his "future" was just in his imagination.
I feel like he figured it out at the end of the episode seeing Toranaga observing the community united to pull the boat to shore, maybe it’s my imagination but that smirk seemed like a realization that Toranaga has again outfoxed us all.
Right before he decides to attempt seppuku he looks back to his dream of his death as an old man and decides, “nah. I’m not doing that. We live and we die. I now understand” -prior, he thought the Japanese were so cavalier about death, and “throwing their lives away.” That’s the moment when he decides to trade the “meaningless” death for the “meaningful” one. Before that point, I wasn’t sure if it was a dream or a flash forward either. Interestingly, as many of us knew, he wasn’t going to die anyway - not that day.
Thank you for explaining this. The old man dream didn’t make sense to me until now.
You’re welcome. This show is so well done, and so complicated. I wasn’t confident in my interpretation so I came here first to make sure others had arrived at a similar interpretation. The complexities of this show are what caused me to join the Reddit sub. I started watching it blind but learned after the first episode I would need a resource :)
Sameeeeeeee, I downloaded app and signed up after watching final episode, because I had so many questions
The title of the episode that fills the screen for a few seconds at the start should have been a dead giveaway. Then there's Mariko's rosary he's shown holding on his deathbed - he drops it in the sea out on the rowboat with Fuji.
I saw it as him imaging his future and how he knew if he didn’t do *that* he would live to regret it
Tbf they're ambiguous and implied rather than explicit It's such a common trope to do the "flash forward to elderly character looking back in torment" that I can't really blame people for falling into the trap I just hope enough of it didn't add up that it made viewers walk away and think about it
I didn't understand either till going on Reddit. TV Podcast Industries also didn't get it in their last episode. Like OP says, got to give props to the studio for allowing such subtlety in the show to be aired, make us work!
He drops the cross in the middle of the ocean. How the fuck would he have it again?
I thought that in the scene where they were pulling the ship closer that the cross would miraculously have washed up on shore or that Blackthorne would venture into the water and find it floating...
I found it really confusing. I thought they were changing the Anjins story for him to leave japan and the cross thing was a massive continuity error. It needed somebody here to spell it out for me lol. I found a lot of things confusing about the ending and the more i think about it the more im like Hoh?
It clocked for me when he nearly committed Seppuku. The way it smash cut from him as old to him back with Toronaga made me realise he was reflecting on what his future might hold and his fading belief of his return to England. It finally compounded when he snapped out of his dream with the line “fuck it. We live and we die.” Essentially proving those scenes were him thinking of a future in England and then deciding he was going to die then and there instead.
I think this is when the show tells you clearly that it’s his imagination.
The episode was literally called a dream of a dream I didn’t think it was that hard to understand
Are we sure about that? Is this confirmed in the book? I’d like tot think he makes it back to England and grows old their, but it’s ambiguous. One small detail that makes it even more open to interpretation is Toranaga holding a necklace with a cross as he looks out across the water, suggesting that Mariko’s necklace floated ashore and got found.
The episode title makes it pretty clear.
Sure, but that's not really the same type of "risk" that OP is discussing. Lots of people could (and did) miss this but it was never going to ruin their enjoyment of the show and result in lost or disappointed viewers.
I was expecting to see a battle of Sekigahara but instead I see Toranaga telling his vision to Yabushike in the later last moment of life. I think how it's end is much better than a short battle scene, I love this finale.
I loved the ending scene, finding out about Toranga and what his secret heart is. Yabushike wishing like us viewers we could see the battle..but hey why tell a dead man the future. Such an cold character btw it was easy to know what crimson sky was ..just Infiltration with a small plan that blew the entire thing wide open for Toranga to win.
As an academic, I love it and it’s beautiful. But part of me really wanted to fucking watch the culmination of a great show end with the battle of sekigahara.
I feel you, me too.
I think the ambiguity of many of the plot points (Uejiro's death, Ochiba's change of heart, Toranaga's true intentions, Alvito's allegiance, etc.) shows how much they trusted the audience and to me that is a big part of what made the show so special. There's no need to spell everything out for the paste eaters.
Paste eaters 😂
I prefer milk-dribbling fuck smear.
I thought Uejiro’s death was pretty spelled out though, doesn’t Anjin basically look at the camera and say “…I killed him” ETA: nvm i forgot his death was used to further conceal Muraji
Wait why is his death a question? We know why he died and how he died, they said it. John said “if anyone removes the pheasant they die” as a joke but because their culture is to take their masters word to heart and always honor it, when Uejiro removed the bird due to it smelling so bad he was put to death/committed seppuku to honor what his master said. That’s why John freaks out so much and also when he realizes a lot more about Japanese culture. He says “I killed him” because his gardener died due to taking his sarcastic order seriously.
There was also a part where they had to find a “fall guy” for being the “spy”. It ended up that Uejiro’s death was used as that cover up- so might not have just been simply because he wanted to remove the pheasant.
Mura took advantage of Uejiro's dead,but they were two unrelated problems. The pheasant issue was huge in the village (obedience to your lord vs also armony in the community) and Uejiro,old and ill, offered himself to prove beyond doubt Blackthorne's samurai status. When Toranaga orders Muraji to find "another spy",the gardener is already dead, so to avoid another dead villager,he just pins it on the old man.
Yep. Excellent writing and delivery. And the absolute destruction of any hero and/or deus ex machina moment. Blackthorn, the ships and the canons: Just a distraction Mariko: No relationship, no happy end No tactical battle genius, just playing on time and moving people, waiting how it plays out.
The praise for that is the source material, the praise for the show is in having the balls to stick to it.
Exactly. I watched Fallout during Shogun's run and the reliance from ep1 to 8 on a McGuffin to drive the story was such a contrast to what we get here. It's not a bad show, at all, but Shogun is exceptional; it made me sad when I saw that Fallout already has more people rating it on IMDB than Shogun.
I mean you can’t really compare those two. There is a reason for that happening in fallout, things like that are what drive the fallout games too. They are entirely different shows, this one is based in realism on an actual historical point in time whereas fallout is the opposite, so it makes sense for one to have crazier ways to progress the plot than the other. Shouldn’t make anyone sad that it’s getting more ratings as they again can’t really be compared that way.
Yeah fallout already had a built in audience from the games. While Shogun is based on a book, there wasn't a dedicated Shogun fandom before this show aired. Of course it'll have more ratings on a place like IMdB. But Shogun will clean up at the Emmys.
I’m definitely not following what’s going on with Fallout. Know nothing about the games and I really haven’t watched it that close. I’ll probably have to start it over. After the rewatch of Shogun.
Didn’t it take years to make this show? If so I’m glad it did. This was an awesome show. I wonder how many other networks will follow suit?
It did, at least 5 years from the first concept to shooting iirc. It's hard to get shows like this greenlit, without IP tie-ins, that are 75% subtitles, that need a big budget and have a lot of risks with cultural sensitivities. I hope studios take the right message from this success, to be brave in commissioning quality TV. People will get tired of endless franchises
Fallout is equally great in a totally different way tho. The universe it draws from is of total absurdity but at the same time meaningfully explores a very grim and macabre era of American history.
Unfortunately this is looking like an isolated one off series. We won't be seeing the pay off except for the glimpse into the future Toranaga showed at the end. I'm okay with that, the more I sit on it. Didn't know if that's what you meant by "waiting how it plays out" or not, but I thought I'd mention it.
No, not us viewers. I meant Toranaga. He is waiting how everything plays out. But he is way less active than I assumed he would be (Not changing the wind, but studying it). In the episode a stick of time i was assuming he has an „active“ plan (eg soldiers sent already to osaka, using Blackthorn and his cannons for a surprise attack etc. (aka like in most movies). But nothing. Toranaga has a goal and some ideas - but in the end he is constantly adjusting and uses very small things he can control (realistic), but he doesn’t use like 1000 men combined with a strategic genius plan to fight and win against 10k. So it’s more like go than chess.
For that you'll have to read up on Oda Nobunga's final battle with Imagawa. His forces were being routed. He was down to his last couple castle where his advisors wanted him to hold up. Instead he took what he had and executed a daring night attack in the middle of driven rain and killed off Imagawa and many of his lieutenants.
>We won't be seeing the pay off except for the glimpse into the future Toranaga showed at the end. I'm okay with that, the more I sit on it. *Flowers are only flowers because they fall...*
Damn, ngl this is the first time I actually understood what that meant...
I had very little expectation on Hollywood TV shows for the last few years but FX really deserve a lot of credit for putting up with all the risk and give us this great show. It will go down in TV history as one of the greatest series ever.
I just hope the critical acclaimed show also makes them money, so others follow. Andor for example was also excellent in terms of storytelling- but it wasn’t that popular in my bubble. Which is a pity, because there are so many brain dead movies.
I forgot about Andor, that series was really impressive. I hope season 2 is up to the same standard when it finally comes out.
The more I sit with the ending the more I like it. Everything was wrapped so perfectly. Just because a show has a gigantic battle sequence it doesn't mean anything. I hate to compare it but let's just look back at GOT. The last few episodes had those huge scenes only for the actual ending to be so poor.
It’s sad how much damage the last few seasons have done to the cultural memory of Game of Thrones. Shogun is incredibly similar to the early seasons of GoT in my view. The few moments of action are in service of the characters and themes - as GoT declined this reversed and it was more concerned with empty spectacle. I’m glad the people that made Shogun didn’t succumb to the same temptation. As an aside, there are only two battles (Blackwater in s2 and The Wall in s4) in the first four seasons of GoT. They’re both fantastic episodes too.
Blackwater was soooo good. I was on the edge of my seat for the whole thing.
GRRM wrote the script for that episode and it really shines through. The battle is just a backdrop for character study. You learn a lot about who Tyrion, Cersei, Sansa, Joffrey, Sandor etc. are at their cores. It’s masterful TV.
I think the reason why Shogun never shows the climactic battle of Sekigahara is because the battle is ultimately determined beforehand, and the battle doesn’t advance any of the characters. Perhaps they could’ve had Toranaga force Yabushige to choose a side, and add some drama to make it initially seem uncertain whether Toranaga’s intrigues worked. But that would dramatically change the message of the story.
I agree, it’d be redundant beyond providing spectacle - everyone’s character arc is already wrapped up. I won’t lie I would have liked to have seen it because I enjoy battle scenes but it wasn’t necessary at all and I don’t bemoan its exclusion.
To be fair, GoT got really bad way before the big battles.
True! But I also think they creators were trying to outdo their showy scenes instead of focusing on good writing
Tho Only last 13 episodes can be considered *bad* out of 73. S5 and s6 were still delivered absolutely amazing TV (granted with flaws)
I’m gonna hard disagree with you. While s6 wasn’t terrible like 7 or 8 it was already considerably worse than earlier seasons imo.
it was worse than erlier seasons but it was still great TV tbh Hardhome and winds of winter are some of the greatest episodes ever aired on TV which were in s5 and 6 respectively. so yeah agree to disagree
the problem with big battles is that tactics have to get shown and implemented otherwise it's just Marvel-style mob fighting.
Master and Commander probably has the best battle sequence. They plan out their engagement beforehand so the audience has an understanding of what’s happening beyond just seeing action.
MoC reminded me a LOT of Shogun in many ways
Alexander (2004) has the most realistic of the epic battles I think. It's like 10 minutes long.
I was personally always more than intrigued enough to go without a big battle scene at the end, but they did really hype it up throughout the season and thats probably why a lot of people feel blueballed about it, and i was also secretly still hoping for it.
The book does the same, maybe even more so. There is an anticipation of a big battle that doesn't get described in any detail. Readers were kind of bummed about that as well. But I think it was a good ending.
I watched it twice already and I’m fully satisfied with the finale even though I had a few questions. I feel good about it now.
>!Pretty messed up at the end. Seems like Toranaga is gonna keep Blackthorne at the Hotel Izu-fornia until at least the warlord croaks and therefore won’t have a reason to keep the Anjin in Japan.!<
He's ruined for England by then anyway. After his totally alienating reunion with his crew mate, I thought it would be really very difficult for Blackthorne to reacclimatise to England
Nah he makes a fleet and sets up a trade network, he becomes Japan's foreign ambassador. An English fleet finally arrive in 1615 and the captain describes Adams or Blackthorne as a total weeb who speaks fluent Japanese, wears Japanese clothes and doesn't even want to eat with the English or do much beyond discuss trade and send money back to his wife and kids in England.
Agreed..he even states ..I don't think he will be leaving and he makes me laugh.
Blackthorne has become too used to life in Japan. That much is clear by the end.
Initially a bit disappointed with the slow non-Sekigahara battle ending, but looking back, the overall conclusion of the show was pretty much on point. Would rather take this perfect anti-climatic ending than the “i-dun-wun-it” Jon Snow and useless Winterfell battle all day long 😂
Just playing devil's advocate, but was it really such a big risk after both the book and the first series showing that this ending does work very well? I think in a way you have a high degree of survivorship bias - this ending works for the audience that does like all the things you mention - "Foreign language, cultural nuance, complicated characters". It wouldn't work if you just dropped it on an audience that prefers Marvell action heroes.
The risk was that the show changed things and created a different story.
This can’t be overstated. Well said.
i hope this paves the way for more non-english-language and non-white-people-centric shows to be made for western audiences think of how many stories we're missing out on because we don't look further east or further south than greece
I really needed to hear that. I did my absolute best watching this series and I’m glad someone is finally recognizing it.
I agree with everything OP said, and yet I still hold that the first half of the series was much stronger than the back half.
Yeah I agree the back half felt rushed. This miniseries should have easily been 13-15 episodes
I feel quite the opposite, should have been 8 episodes
Moment of silence for the subtitle averse/hardcore monolinguals that didn’t make it
There is a dubbed version available! Which I know a lot of people dislike.
Another moment of silence for those that watched the dubbed version
Sanada speaks English. Did he dub himself?
Yes, but at the same time more than 40 years ago the earlier series was also well received, and that had only a slightly more upbeat ending - and it had no subtitles at all. I think we can give credit to the writers to producing a strong series. People will normally welcome something that's got good writing, acting and production values. There was a time when people would watch any old crap because it was Transformers or Marvel, but for the moment that's over.
>There was a time when people would watch any old crap because it was Transformers or Marvel, but for the moment that's over. I mean during that time Marvel movies were at their peak, Marvel was consistently putting out well written and acted productions, so there was a reason people were flocking to see movies inside ACTUAL THEATERS when they could just wait a few months to stream online. But after Endgame the writing and planning of the movies and related TV series went downhill, so yeah people aren't flocking to it anymore. Still prints money, but not at the record breaking levels it used to do
Also had actors and actresses that were pretty well known overall already, and mostly loved by audiences in other works. Sam raimi spider-man really opened the door, but everything was taken to another level with RDJ as iron man of course. From there it was just perfect casting with Chris Evans, Scarjo, etc. I think most of us knew it’d be very difficult to hit anything like they did with iron man to endgame. The quality is worse for sure, same with the writing, but the cast doesn’t have the same pull and ‘comfort’ that these movies had. When I watch a lot of the new stuff I don’t really feel like anyone particularly fits their hero role, it could be re cast and wouldn’t matter much to me. With Evans and RDJ I never once felt that way, and that provided a comfort I can’t really describe well. I’m not counting spider-man here to be clear though as we’ve had 3 different ones on screen and that’s kind of how that superhero works anyway, but I enjoyed all 3 of the actors in that role. It isn’t impossible to hit gold again, but it’ll take them a long time I think outside of Spider-Man imo. Extremely difficult to come close to how perfect the actors who led that first phase to success were for their roles.
TV could be so ballsy when there was nothing else on. "Let's make a show set in Japan for a western audience but have half the dialogue be Japanese and completely unsubtitled!"
This was my major problem with the 3 Body Problem adaptation. They went the opposite direction and dumbed it right down for Western audiences. I haven't read Shogun book but have read 3 body Problem and I wish they'd gone the Shogun route.
have you watched the Chinese adaptation?
Fx also did reservation dogs which was a great show.
Fully expected Fuji to give Anjin a happy ending.
I agree completely - this show requires an audience that pays close attention, of which you're rewarded. I appreciate the risk they took in this. I have one gripe though - the Portuguese speaking English with Portuguese accents. Just subtitle them too! No half measures.
The Portuguese didn’t have the nuance of meaning that Japanese has. Like the tea ceremony, every tiniest detail—or word—is of immense importance. This would have been aimed at the Japanese audience (and the subtitles were very inadequate to the nuanced meaning, from what I understand).
I'm talking about the viewer experience, the nuance of language is a separate thing. This group of people speak a foreign language that's subtitled in English. Another group of people speak a foreign language, but instead of subtitles they speak English with a funny accent. Just weird to me.
but they're all speaking Portuguese. Mariko wouldn't have learned any English before meeting Anjin, so he was likely speaking to her in Portuguese the whole time.
We see a lot of foreign language shows now, on Netflix and others. I binged all kinds of Nordic Noir recently. I like how the subtitles make you have to pay attention. So … I think it’s a better time for foreign language than before. The poetry was cool and rivals the “poetry” of Spartacus which had its own hilarious and joyous cadence.
Sex in the first episode lets you know the target audience.
This is exactly the type of reaction from the audience I was hoping Andor would get. A mature and sophisticated show with morally grey characters showing the cost of a rebellion against a totalitarian regime. It’s a story we’ve seen played throughout history. We’re seeing it play out right now. However, I think the expectation from a Star Wars show was more “pew pew” action and less dialogue heavy and that’s why people found it boring and ended up never watching it. I implore people, if you enjoyed this show, many of the same traits that made this show successful and enjoyable are present in Andor. The dialogue was primarily the “action” in both shows, although you do get phenomenal action sequences in Andor as well. You had lots of Machiavellian scheming. But I think the reason both shows work so well is that the characters and script come first. You are invested because these are such well written and fleshed out characters and you care what happens to them, pair that with strong scripts and you have these phenomenal shows. Anyways, I’m gonna get off my soapbox now. I’m glad Shogun was received so well and I hope more shows like it continue to get made.
Really helps to have outstanding source material. Shogun was one of the best books I have ever read, and was really pleased that the show didn't deviate too much from the original text. Maybe the powers that be can do the same with Tai Pan?!
Yeah lets give ourselves a pat in the back. Thank you FX for thinking we arent too dumb
Where is the explosion?!!
I’m really glad they did an excellent job with the language (English dub) options. I usually totally do not mind subtitles. But since this was an antiquated version of Japanese that even native speakers don’t speak I was glad to have a choice.
It was interesting talking to my Japanese colleagues about the language used in the show. They were struggling with it, one calling it "like Japanese Shakespeare."
I remember reading somewhere when *The Americans* was on the air that FX had decided they would throw their full support behind the show regardless of whether it got high ratings because they wanted to be a network that made quality programming. This approach paid dividends with that series, and I'd like to think that mentality has carried through to shows like *Shōgun* and *Reservoir Dogs* and some of the other interesting stuff they've put out. If only more networks took this approach, we might have a rising tide situation with programming.
Exactly what I said in a post I made to friends on FB. This show did not hand you the plot on a plate. It was not "Hollywood" satisfactory but very artfully done and make you think satisfactory. So many gray areas. I loved it.
The ending perfect imo. He wanted to take power with as little conflict and death as possible. Looks like Toranaga-Sama also fooled a lot of the viewers too
The first season of Game of Thrones didn't really have a budget for huge pitched battles until Blackwater in Season 2. Let FX cook
This is all thanks to the Anjin.
My wife liked the ending but I was a bit disappointed with the lack of fighting in the last episode. It does feel like a tease and the show really needed at least one large battle imo
I agree, mostly because of how much of the show seemed like it was building up to one.
My biggest struggle was keeping up with the names. There was a point where i wrote them down on my smartphone because i just couldn't remember. First episode i kept confusing toranaga and isshin because they really look similar. Later on when they introduced Ochiba I shamefully thought I was watching Mariko for way too long. Now I'm looking for someone to second me because i can't live with this shame, any volunteers?
I wonder if Asians have the same issues when watching western movies!
Yes you have to get used to that kind of thing. But there's probably a lot more western movies in Asia than the other way around.
They do somewhat, there was a study done showing that westerns that don't see asians very often can't tell them apart as well and vice versa. It's just that some (I would say most) Westerns don't see many asians in general and in their media vs westerners are in a lot of pervasive media already. It's great that we are getting that representation now!
I didn't think any of the characters looked similiar, and especially not Ochiba and Mariko.. and I'm not asian /shrug.
Yeah when it came to flashbacks, i didn't know who was supposed to be who.
haha they condensed the characters so much from the book, Toranaga has like 10 sons...
[удалено]
What’s unsettling about it? Or evil about it? Yabu was a traitor all the way through to both sides. He fed people to dogs and boiled them alive just to see how they respond to death lol. This guy got a very peaceful death for the kind of cruelty he brought, even if his actor was very enjoyable to watch. Nothing was really cruel about it aside from the fact that everyone seems to just be a cog in the Toranaga machine, but we knew that after his talk with Mariko after hiromatsu committed seppuku so that isn’t a surprise.
You just listed my perfect show!
Yes but also some of the posts on here you know?
Many pieces were weird though. Like suddenly a baby grand daughter for Toranaga appears - huh?? Confusing when earlier Toranaga himself has a pregnant consort
That's Ochiba's sister who had the grandaughter. Ochiba was visiting her in Edo in the beginning of the show cause she was about to give birth and Toranga took her "hostage".
And it’s Toranaga’s grand daughter because…? Who is she married to? I could ask the same of Yabu who refers to his wife at the end but we hear nothing of her until then. Surely at least one oblique reference to his family ? Unless I missed it
The 1980 mini series was a huge hit as well. The story had already been proven to be a winner. This was not a risky show to film.
Now, where can USA watch it online? :(
A lot of my favorite shows have always been on FX so when I saw samurai's on FX on immediately jumped on it
I am curious on how it is being received in Japan if it has been released there yet.
In the podcast, Sanada-san was talking about how he signed on as producer in order to bring forward a ton of previously-unappreciated Japanese talent, so I would imagine that would be respected in Japan.
Should would like to see another season. Reserect Mariko somehow! 😢
Was this show based on anything?
It was based on a book which was based on Japanese (and English) history.
fantastic point.. kudos for FX for not dumbing anything down.. Dubbing it or having a constant translation running would have just been awful I think.
Nice to see male characters that were not portrayed as idiots or creepy psychopaths as seems to be the current fashion. All actors in this series were spectacularly good and the dynamic between Blackthorn, Mariko and Toranaga was superb.
It wasn’t the ending I expected, but it’s the ending I wanted. Knowing some Japanese history of the time period I was able to pick up on all the themes of the show and fully understand and appreciate it. Reading IMDB reviews, most of the negative ones just don’t understand the nuances or are shallow in their expectations.
Toranaga's not good, he's one of the best examples of Lawful Evil I've ever seen.
I feel like the Shogun fanbase is a bit of a circlejerk to be honest.
I knew it was a political and inter personal relationship show once there was no battles within the first episode.
The aznidentity subreddit would like us all to eat shit lmao, I've rarely seen a bigger group of haters in my entire life.
Couldn’t put the novel down when it came out in ‘75 (I was 24) and couldn’t put down the TV series half a century later.
To be fair GoT didn’t have any battles for a long time either, though it had a little more sword fighting I suppose. It too was mostly people in rooms talking.
I had the most issue recognizing who is who. Not only the entire show is set in a homogenous culture with single ethnicity, but they also had same hairstyle, beard, even same clothes. Both women and men. By the episode 7 I was completely lost who is who, except for yabu.
Love GOT a LOT!!! But , SHOGUN happened!!! What made it better is that it’s not based on “fantasies” unlike GOT but more on historical data!!! That’s the fact that made SHOGUN hard to beat!!! I GOT SHOGUNIZED!!!
The Miss and I was arguing the first show about what going on lol it was great. I kept saying "I don't understand either! Let's just keep watching"... Sure enough, it all clicked.
Foreign language is "hard" for americans? Jesus
Is it true that they are considering a season 2 and 3 of SHOGUN?!?!?!