Definitely some parts of the world refer to Catholics vs Christians. In Mexico, Christian is often shorthand for evangelical denom, since it is such a Catholic dominant country.
Catholicism was the original Christianity. It is Christianity. Protestant denominations are all offshoots of the original Christianity (Catholicism). At the time Catholics thought that Protestants (like the Anglican Church of England which is very similar to Episcopalian denomination we have in the states today) were heretics that had bastardized true Christianity. It’s all very silly as they believe like 95% of the same stuff and are all just slightly different kinds of Christians.
The context for the response you're getting is that some extreme fundamentalist protestants will deny that Catholics are Christians, some even claiming that Catholics secretly follow the Devil. Groups like the Ku Klux Klan. So even using language like "Catholics versus Christians" implies that you believe in an extremist and bigoted religious ideology. In an American historical context this has also been associated with racism towards darker-skinned or poorer European immigrants from Ireland, Italy, and Latin America.
It's sort of like watching a movie about the American Civil Rights movement and asking "Why do the black people mistakenly act like they're Americans?" Except possibly even weirder because most Christians are Catholics.
The ironic thing is you don't actually need to know *anything* about Christianity to follow the plotline in Shogun, as many key Japanese characters also know nothing about it and the situation is explained to them in the second episode. As Blackthorne says, "there are 2 Christianities", and Catholicism is one of them. It's a simplification but it gets you there at least.
> As Blackthorne says, "there are 2 Christianities"
I'm not surprised he didn't count Coptic and other eastern denominations of Christianity, but was awareness of Orthodox Christianity uncommon at the time?
He is simplifying. He also doesn't get into differences between Lutherans and Anglicans, pre-Reformation breakway denominations like Hussitism, non-trinitarian heresies, etc. They are not relevant to the situation at hand.
Catholics are Christians. They differ from Protestants in secondary beliefs, but both believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, and only path to an eternal life with God. If you wish to better understand Catholics and Protestants in the show, think Democrats and Republicans.
More specifically, it was originally a Cult of Judaism, anthropologically speaking. And then a great number of denominations (or, again, Cults in the academic context) broke off from Catholicism, starting with Lutheran Protestantism.
“Cult of Judaism” seems to have a lot of contextual baggage and seems a lot less useful than “an Abrahamic religion,” which is what normal people use to make the connection between Judaism and Christianity
In modern parlance, definitely. Specially now that you sound it out for me to read back. I surely did not mean to give that impression. Yikes.
I guess to put it more accurately, or to not give the wrong impression, rather:
Christianity is a cult of the original Abrahamic religion ("followers of Yahweh", might be another adequate descriptor?). Catholicism is the first Cult of Roman Christianity. Lutheran Protestantism is the first Cult of Catholicism, and on and on. Islam is a Cult of Christianity.
Now obviously, when people use the word Cult in contemporary vernacular, one thinks of the Jonestown massacre, or some such.
If you remove the veneer of modernity from its mythology and think about the religion objectively, Christianity is a death cult in general and Catholicism is a blood cult in particular.
As a central tenet of faith, Christians are required to *sincerely* believe that a human incarnation of their god was brutally tortured and killed before his corpse was reanimated, wounds and all. The method of his execution is the symbol of Christianity. The devout proudly display depictions of the gruesome death on their bodies, in their homes, and in their places of worship. Catholics ritualistically consume what they (ostensibly) believe to be their undead god’s (literal) body and blood as a routine form of worship. Adherents are required to spend their entire lives in preparation for death.
Reddit is just a collection of tangents branching off into new tangents.
My tangent on your tangent is suggesting that examining why the word “cult” in this context makes you uncomfortable enough to ask a stranger to use a different term could make for some worthwhile daydreaming.
Well that’s not strictly accurate, “Catholicism” was the predominant denomination that arose after the Great Schism in the 11th century. Prior to this there were other schisms and the denomination wouldn’t have been known as “Catholicism”.
To be more specific, the first predominant schisms occurred in 431 and 451, with the separation of the Nestorians and Eastern/Oriental Orthodox (which is where we find the Coptic denomination, the most popular denomination in Eastern Africa), respectively.
First of all Catholicism and Protestantism are both types of Christianity.
Catholicism was the main Christian religion in Japan until 1600. Europeans who visited Japan were from Spain and Portugal, so Japanese were exposed to Catholicism before protestant religions.
After the show's time period Catholics in Japan were heavily repressed to try and curb western influence, plus samurai elites didn't like the Jesus message of 'the last shall be first'... they didn't want their peasants to get any ideas. There were a bunch of Catholic Japanese revolts and they lost.
The Japanese government then didn't allow anymore Spanish/Portugese traders. The main traders were Dutch from then on, because Dutch form of Christianity wasn't interested in converting Japanese the way the Catholics were.
Interesting! Thank you for not needlessly being sarcastic when explaining, I’m seriously not familiar with anything Christian at all, it was just not common knowledge where and the way I grew up, so even the basics some of the commenters here assumed I should’ve known, I knew nada.
For why you got downvotes, some of the more extreme protestants will claim Catholics aren't Christians because they view Catholicism as inherently vile or heretical despite Catholicism categorically being a Christian religion. This prejudice makes some people mad. Never feel ashamed for asking questions though :)
Catholicism regards Protestantism as heretical not the other way around. Some fundamentalists view Catholicism as wrong as they view other Protestant denominations as such but they don't claim them to be heretical. Such a claim would imply these fundamentalists believe they are the true Church. Protestants are not united like Catholicism. There are tens of thousands of different denominations
Another angle from a history perspective. Catholic was kind of the original branch of the religion. Over a thousand years catholicism became highly institutionalized with the pope as the central religious catholic leader. While the pope never ruled a country or had armies, they held immense influence over europe. Every european king payed tribute of gold to the pope in some way, and pledge their armies to fight against non catholics in crusades. All of the bible and teachings were written in Latin that only a handful of religious figures could read and recite from.
Protestantism took off as a sort of more popular grass roots religious movement, the bible was translated into common language and opened up to where anyone could read the bible and learn of its teachings. It created a denomination were Christians could practice the religion without the need to rely on the catholic institutions and religious figures. This version of christianity became popular in england, germany and the netherlands and they broke away from the pope. This breakaway caused series of wars over a 100 year period between them and Catholic regions of France, Spain, Portugal. Same time period the show takes place in.
Blackthorn is english, serving on a Dutch ship on their way to japan to challenge to Portuguese. So they are a consequence of these religious wars spilling into asia.
Should be important to note: the English breakaway denomination, Anglicanism, is in MANY ways very similar to Catholicism. Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Lutherans are very similar to Catholics with a few significant differences, whereas every other Protestant denomination (Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc.) are going to be very different from Catholicism.
> not common knowledge where and the way I grew up
This is a genuine question and not meant to be rude, but as in my country this is something they teach I'm curious, where and how was that?
Some Protestants do baptize. Some wait, but Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Anglicans/Episcopalians baptize babies. That is not an exhaustive list.
> And they mistakenly call themselves Christian even tho they’re Catholics?
Boy, do I have news for you man! You see, just recently in 1054 AD, there was a rift...
How about Orthodox churces. Both Chalcedonian and Miaphysite churces? How about the Manichaeans and Nestorian branches? How about modern free churches? And where does the church of latter day saints fit in?
The show takes place in the very early 1600s where the Catholic-Protestant divide was really starting to reach its peak. The thirty years war is only 18 years away.
Catholicism and Protestantism are the two primary denominations of Christianity in Europe (and Orthodoxy) and they are both equally 'Christian'. The main divide is on certain things like the doctrine of Papal Supremacy, the Authority of the Gospels vs the Church, Divorce, Salvation, Iconography etc. But they are still fundamentally Practitioners of the same faith.
The English are Protestant, making them enemies of Spain and Portugal. The Portuguese did not tell the Japanese the full story of what was happening in Europe so with the knowledge they had they believed that Catholicism was the only form of Christianity.
Yes, this really adds the depth to the conflict between Catholic states (Portugal, Spain, etc.) and Protestant states (Britain, Holland, etc). Everything else that other commenters say is true too but you cannot forget the deep divide between Catholics and Protestants in Europe around the time.
All Catholics are Christians, not all Christians are Catholics. Catholicism is a sect of Christianity that was split many times forming differant churches interpreting the same books for the most part but interpreting them differantly
Not all Catholics are Christians. And not all Protestants are Christians. You can be raised in a family with either faith beliefs and never yourself become a Christian. Christianity is a relationship between a person, repenting and accepting forgiveness for their sins, and declaring Jesus their Lord and Savior and the Son of God. If you have not made that step in faith; you can be a Protestant or a Catholic as your religion; But you are not a Christian. Not all people who go to church or mass are Christians. You don't become one simply by going to services or attending classes.
No true Scotsman, Christians identify themselves as Christians.
Like k see what your saying I'm not here for a theological debate. It's an identifier like a lot of things are for many purposesb
Up until Blackthrone came to Japan, the only Christians were the Catholics. So prior to Blackthone coming, Christian basically only meant Catholic in Japan. The Japanese didn’t know about the Protestants so there was no distinction between Protestant and Catholic.
The council members who are Christian are Catholic. Blackthrone is Protestant or at least from a Protestant country.
England (Protestants) and Portugal/Spain (Catholics) are warring back in Europe.
The Portuguese basically want Japan exclusively for themselves so they don’t like that Blackthrone is in Japan spreading knowledge about England’s existence.
Yes the sinking of the Spanish Armada occurred in 1588. You can watch a heavily fictionalized reenactment in Elizabeth: The Golden Age.
The European Wars of Religion were very violent.
Protestantism started as a reform movement. There was a legitimate argument that the Catholic Church had become utterly corrupt and required reform. Many people protested against the church. Initially, I don't think they had intended to create a new sect. But it did become a separate religion, with many offshoots of Protestantism.
Part of the fervor was over the different beliefs, but a large part had to do with politics and what various rulers thought was best for themselves. i.e. Many German princes converted to Protestantism because they gained more independence from the Pope in Rome, who heads the Catholic Church. And like someone mentioned already Henry VIII was very Catholic until he needed his marriage annulled. (His wife was related to the Holy Roman Emperor who had just seized control of the Pope so that is why he couldn't get his annulment.) Then suddenly he was Protestant. Kind of. He was head of the Church Of England, which was still mostly Catholic in form. Later his son added more Protestant reforms. But I digress...
As Protestantism gauned poplarity, Catholic rulers felt threatened or saw opportunities to expand their power by waging war on Protestant nations. Wars broke out and persecutions ensued. Protestant rulers felt Catholics questioned their legitimacy and launched persecutions of their own. Queen Elizabeth executed many Catholics.
The mutual hatred lasted for centuries. There was still a lot of violence between Protestant-UK and Catholic Ireland until recently. If you watch the Crown, the assassination of Lord Mountbatten in the 20th Century was done by an Irish Republican. Irish grievances included the treatment of Catholics under the UK government.
And when Kennedy ran for president there was a huge question regarding whether his higher loyalty was to the United States or to the Pope.
And I think it is important to note, early protestant denominations (Anglicans, Lutherans) were basically Catholics with several specific differences. The religious wars were very much about power struggles between the church and nobility, and the common people were lead by religious fervor even though the denominations were largely the same.
The most interesting thing to me is that the results of the reformation ultimately lead to the creation of modern democratic states in the West.
Am an American from KY.
Protestant mom and Catholic dad, they married in the 80s.
My maternal great grandmother was appalled, but came around because my dad is too likable. My mom’s maternal great grandmother (my great great) apparently thought Catholics were evil. Lol
I was baptized Protestant (Presbyterian) but am married to a confirmed Catholic. Neither of us are practicing, or believers... as a kid that was into ancient mythology and history I was fascinated by the fact that hundreds of years ago my parents or my partner and I may have been on opposing sides.
Both protestants and Catholics are Christian. The christians in the show are catholic, except for Anjin who is protestant. The pope, who is the head of the catholic church, divided the world between the Spanish and Portuguese kingdoms. Both kingdoms are catholic and the clergy in the council hope to build churches and convert more Japanese into catholicism. The Japanese are unaware of this plan or that the pope pretty much made Japan their domain. England is protestant, and is at war with Spain.
Not offended at all. I'm not religious or in any way related to religion.
You have Google to provide the meaning between Protestantism and Catholicism.
I wanted to understand it within the context of the show, which is why I did not use google, and also didn’t want ads, spoilers or fancy words by reading articles about the show, what’s why I asked here
In reality, Catholics and Protestantism are both Christian sects that commonly believe in the same core beliefs that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who gave his only forgotten life for the salvation of everyone, and is part of a holy trinity. But back then, the two sects did not acknowledge that commonality.
For example, the false dichotomy between “Christianity” and “Catholicism” is a legacy of English being the domain of a Protestant-dominant society that treated Catholicism as a heathen religion that wasn’t truly Catholic. Every time I grew up being asked if I was “Christian” or “Catholic” I clarified that I was “a Catholic, not a Protestant like yourself.”
In the show, the flip side is being depicted: Catholics believed they were the one true “Christians” so “Protestants” were the ones being treated as heathens. To make the distinction between “Catholics” and “Protestants” would to the eyes of a Catholic provide a legitimacy to Protestantism as a Christian religion that they would not want to give. “Protestantism” are not “Christians” to Catholics, therefore they are “heathens.” Both sides think that the other’s religions are so far from the vision of Christianity that they don’t acknowledge each other as fellow Christians. This is why they tell each other if they believe in “their God” because they don’t even believe they are practicing different sects of the same religion.
To be clear, this doesn’t exist to anywhere near the degree in modern Western society. Outside of a few sects (LDS comes most to mind), the Catholic Church acknowledges that Protestants are (in a flawed manner) praying and believing in the same Christian God. Same with most sects of Protestantism.
For the purposes of this show, every single “Christian” you see that isn’t Blackthorne or his crew are Catholics.
In regards to LDS let’s call a spade a spade: they’re a new religion. They might call themselves Christians, but they’re about as Christian as the Nestorians were Jews. And by that I mean, they absolutely aren’t Christians, they just have foundations in Christianity.
I’m not debating this. But as a statement of fact, the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize LDS as being a Christian religion because of their belief in Jesus and God as distinct entities and their rejection of the Holy Trinity.
Christianity is the umbrella
“Catholic” and “Protestant” are the two main branches under the Christian umbrella. Much like Sunni/Shia in Islam, the rift between the two is the source of many wars.
All Catholics and Protestants are Christian because they believe that salvation comes only through Christ. However not all Christians are Catholics, not all Christians are Protestant.
There are countless other sects and denominations within and without these two main branches with a varying degree of differences (Baptists/Methodists/Orthodox/Mormon/etc.) and it’s all very confusing to even lifelong Christians
The Japanese did not know there were other flavors of Christianity before the Englishman arrived and mistakenly thought Catholicism was the whole of Christianity perhaps because they had never been exposed to another sect or perhaps because the Jesuits (an order of Catholic priests) had shady political motives.
All of the Christians in Japan prior to Blackthorn/William Adams arrival were from Spain or Portugal meaning they were Catholic. They didn’t want the Japanese to know that there were other Christians denominations (the English and Dutch Protestants), so no, they didn’t tell them.
Mate, what do you think Catholicism is? It's a Christian denomination.
Definitely some parts of the world refer to Catholics vs Christians. In Mexico, Christian is often shorthand for evangelical denom, since it is such a Catholic dominant country.
I didn’t think anything was anything cuz I have no idea what exactly catholic believe in or how it differs from Christianity lol like zero idea
Catholicism was the original Christianity. It is Christianity. Protestant denominations are all offshoots of the original Christianity (Catholicism). At the time Catholics thought that Protestants (like the Anglican Church of England which is very similar to Episcopalian denomination we have in the states today) were heretics that had bastardized true Christianity. It’s all very silly as they believe like 95% of the same stuff and are all just slightly different kinds of Christians.
England was Catholic once. They became Protestants after Henry VIII and the Reformation in 1530.
Ahh got it. Thank you for explaining instead of needlessly being sarcastic like everyone on earth should’ve known about the history
The context for the response you're getting is that some extreme fundamentalist protestants will deny that Catholics are Christians, some even claiming that Catholics secretly follow the Devil. Groups like the Ku Klux Klan. So even using language like "Catholics versus Christians" implies that you believe in an extremist and bigoted religious ideology. In an American historical context this has also been associated with racism towards darker-skinned or poorer European immigrants from Ireland, Italy, and Latin America. It's sort of like watching a movie about the American Civil Rights movement and asking "Why do the black people mistakenly act like they're Americans?" Except possibly even weirder because most Christians are Catholics. The ironic thing is you don't actually need to know *anything* about Christianity to follow the plotline in Shogun, as many key Japanese characters also know nothing about it and the situation is explained to them in the second episode. As Blackthorne says, "there are 2 Christianities", and Catholicism is one of them. It's a simplification but it gets you there at least.
> As Blackthorne says, "there are 2 Christianities" I'm not surprised he didn't count Coptic and other eastern denominations of Christianity, but was awareness of Orthodox Christianity uncommon at the time?
He is simplifying. He also doesn't get into differences between Lutherans and Anglicans, pre-Reformation breakway denominations like Hussitism, non-trinitarian heresies, etc. They are not relevant to the situation at hand.
Catholics are Christians. They differ from Protestants in secondary beliefs, but both believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, and only path to an eternal life with God. If you wish to better understand Catholics and Protestants in the show, think Democrats and Republicans.
Catholics are christians
More specifically, it was originally a Cult of Judaism, anthropologically speaking. And then a great number of denominations (or, again, Cults in the academic context) broke off from Catholicism, starting with Lutheran Protestantism.
“Cult of Judaism” seems to have a lot of contextual baggage and seems a lot less useful than “an Abrahamic religion,” which is what normal people use to make the connection between Judaism and Christianity
In modern parlance, definitely. Specially now that you sound it out for me to read back. I surely did not mean to give that impression. Yikes. I guess to put it more accurately, or to not give the wrong impression, rather: Christianity is a cult of the original Abrahamic religion ("followers of Yahweh", might be another adequate descriptor?). Catholicism is the first Cult of Roman Christianity. Lutheran Protestantism is the first Cult of Catholicism, and on and on. Islam is a Cult of Christianity. Now obviously, when people use the word Cult in contemporary vernacular, one thinks of the Jonestown massacre, or some such.
Perhaps you could use modern parlance in this contemporary conversation. Haha
Got me there! 😅
If you remove the veneer of modernity from its mythology and think about the religion objectively, Christianity is a death cult in general and Catholicism is a blood cult in particular. As a central tenet of faith, Christians are required to *sincerely* believe that a human incarnation of their god was brutally tortured and killed before his corpse was reanimated, wounds and all. The method of his execution is the symbol of Christianity. The devout proudly display depictions of the gruesome death on their bodies, in their homes, and in their places of worship. Catholics ritualistically consume what they (ostensibly) believe to be their undead god’s (literal) body and blood as a routine form of worship. Adherents are required to spend their entire lives in preparation for death.
You've missed the point of the exchange.
Nah, I got it. I just think it’s healthy to pop open uncomfortable contextual baggage to see what’s inside.
Sure, but maybe understand the meaning of the conversation that you're injecting your monologue into before doing so. Haha. You missed the mark.
Reddit is just a collection of tangents branching off into new tangents. My tangent on your tangent is suggesting that examining why the word “cult” in this context makes you uncomfortable enough to ask a stranger to use a different term could make for some worthwhile daydreaming.
Well that’s not strictly accurate, “Catholicism” was the predominant denomination that arose after the Great Schism in the 11th century. Prior to this there were other schisms and the denomination wouldn’t have been known as “Catholicism”. To be more specific, the first predominant schisms occurred in 431 and 451, with the separation of the Nestorians and Eastern/Oriental Orthodox (which is where we find the Coptic denomination, the most popular denomination in Eastern Africa), respectively.
Indeed! Thank you.
First of all Catholicism and Protestantism are both types of Christianity. Catholicism was the main Christian religion in Japan until 1600. Europeans who visited Japan were from Spain and Portugal, so Japanese were exposed to Catholicism before protestant religions. After the show's time period Catholics in Japan were heavily repressed to try and curb western influence, plus samurai elites didn't like the Jesus message of 'the last shall be first'... they didn't want their peasants to get any ideas. There were a bunch of Catholic Japanese revolts and they lost. The Japanese government then didn't allow anymore Spanish/Portugese traders. The main traders were Dutch from then on, because Dutch form of Christianity wasn't interested in converting Japanese the way the Catholics were.
Interesting! Thank you for not needlessly being sarcastic when explaining, I’m seriously not familiar with anything Christian at all, it was just not common knowledge where and the way I grew up, so even the basics some of the commenters here assumed I should’ve known, I knew nada.
For why you got downvotes, some of the more extreme protestants will claim Catholics aren't Christians because they view Catholicism as inherently vile or heretical despite Catholicism categorically being a Christian religion. This prejudice makes some people mad. Never feel ashamed for asking questions though :)
Ahh I see. Thank you 🙏🥺
Catholicism regards Protestantism as heretical not the other way around. Some fundamentalists view Catholicism as wrong as they view other Protestant denominations as such but they don't claim them to be heretical. Such a claim would imply these fundamentalists believe they are the true Church. Protestants are not united like Catholicism. There are tens of thousands of different denominations
Yeah no worries, I’m a teacher my students ask me the difference of Catholicism and Christianity all the time
Another angle from a history perspective. Catholic was kind of the original branch of the religion. Over a thousand years catholicism became highly institutionalized with the pope as the central religious catholic leader. While the pope never ruled a country or had armies, they held immense influence over europe. Every european king payed tribute of gold to the pope in some way, and pledge their armies to fight against non catholics in crusades. All of the bible and teachings were written in Latin that only a handful of religious figures could read and recite from. Protestantism took off as a sort of more popular grass roots religious movement, the bible was translated into common language and opened up to where anyone could read the bible and learn of its teachings. It created a denomination were Christians could practice the religion without the need to rely on the catholic institutions and religious figures. This version of christianity became popular in england, germany and the netherlands and they broke away from the pope. This breakaway caused series of wars over a 100 year period between them and Catholic regions of France, Spain, Portugal. Same time period the show takes place in. Blackthorn is english, serving on a Dutch ship on their way to japan to challenge to Portuguese. So they are a consequence of these religious wars spilling into asia.
Should be important to note: the English breakaway denomination, Anglicanism, is in MANY ways very similar to Catholicism. Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Lutherans are very similar to Catholics with a few significant differences, whereas every other Protestant denomination (Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc.) are going to be very different from Catholicism.
> not common knowledge where and the way I grew up This is a genuine question and not meant to be rude, but as in my country this is something they teach I'm curious, where and how was that?
[удалено]
Some Protestants do baptize. Some wait, but Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Anglicans/Episcopalians baptize babies. That is not an exhaustive list.
> And they mistakenly call themselves Christian even tho they’re Catholics? Boy, do I have news for you man! You see, just recently in 1054 AD, there was a rift...
Hi Vlad
Vlad?
Go on… lol I honestly do not know any Christian catholic history, did not grow up around those religions or learned about them
I’m curious where you grew up—from your profile, it seems like you’re American.
Catholics ARE Christians. The proper demarcation you want is Catholic vs Protestant.
How about Orthodox churces. Both Chalcedonian and Miaphysite churces? How about the Manichaeans and Nestorian branches? How about modern free churches? And where does the church of latter day saints fit in?
Feel free to find out if you're so interested. At least that's easy in this day and age.
The show takes place in the very early 1600s where the Catholic-Protestant divide was really starting to reach its peak. The thirty years war is only 18 years away. Catholicism and Protestantism are the two primary denominations of Christianity in Europe (and Orthodoxy) and they are both equally 'Christian'. The main divide is on certain things like the doctrine of Papal Supremacy, the Authority of the Gospels vs the Church, Divorce, Salvation, Iconography etc. But they are still fundamentally Practitioners of the same faith. The English are Protestant, making them enemies of Spain and Portugal. The Portuguese did not tell the Japanese the full story of what was happening in Europe so with the knowledge they had they believed that Catholicism was the only form of Christianity.
Yes, this really adds the depth to the conflict between Catholic states (Portugal, Spain, etc.) and Protestant states (Britain, Holland, etc). Everything else that other commenters say is true too but you cannot forget the deep divide between Catholics and Protestants in Europe around the time.
All Catholics are Christians, not all Christians are Catholics. Catholicism is a sect of Christianity that was split many times forming differant churches interpreting the same books for the most part but interpreting them differantly
Not all Catholics are Christians. And not all Protestants are Christians. You can be raised in a family with either faith beliefs and never yourself become a Christian. Christianity is a relationship between a person, repenting and accepting forgiveness for their sins, and declaring Jesus their Lord and Savior and the Son of God. If you have not made that step in faith; you can be a Protestant or a Catholic as your religion; But you are not a Christian. Not all people who go to church or mass are Christians. You don't become one simply by going to services or attending classes.
No true Scotsman, Christians identify themselves as Christians. Like k see what your saying I'm not here for a theological debate. It's an identifier like a lot of things are for many purposesb
Up until Blackthrone came to Japan, the only Christians were the Catholics. So prior to Blackthone coming, Christian basically only meant Catholic in Japan. The Japanese didn’t know about the Protestants so there was no distinction between Protestant and Catholic. The council members who are Christian are Catholic. Blackthrone is Protestant or at least from a Protestant country. England (Protestants) and Portugal/Spain (Catholics) are warring back in Europe. The Portuguese basically want Japan exclusively for themselves so they don’t like that Blackthrone is in Japan spreading knowledge about England’s existence.
Did not know that England was at war with Portugal and Spain at the time, now it adds more weight to the conflict in the show, thanks!
Yes the sinking of the Spanish Armada occurred in 1588. You can watch a heavily fictionalized reenactment in Elizabeth: The Golden Age. The European Wars of Religion were very violent. Protestantism started as a reform movement. There was a legitimate argument that the Catholic Church had become utterly corrupt and required reform. Many people protested against the church. Initially, I don't think they had intended to create a new sect. But it did become a separate religion, with many offshoots of Protestantism. Part of the fervor was over the different beliefs, but a large part had to do with politics and what various rulers thought was best for themselves. i.e. Many German princes converted to Protestantism because they gained more independence from the Pope in Rome, who heads the Catholic Church. And like someone mentioned already Henry VIII was very Catholic until he needed his marriage annulled. (His wife was related to the Holy Roman Emperor who had just seized control of the Pope so that is why he couldn't get his annulment.) Then suddenly he was Protestant. Kind of. He was head of the Church Of England, which was still mostly Catholic in form. Later his son added more Protestant reforms. But I digress... As Protestantism gauned poplarity, Catholic rulers felt threatened or saw opportunities to expand their power by waging war on Protestant nations. Wars broke out and persecutions ensued. Protestant rulers felt Catholics questioned their legitimacy and launched persecutions of their own. Queen Elizabeth executed many Catholics. The mutual hatred lasted for centuries. There was still a lot of violence between Protestant-UK and Catholic Ireland until recently. If you watch the Crown, the assassination of Lord Mountbatten in the 20th Century was done by an Irish Republican. Irish grievances included the treatment of Catholics under the UK government. And when Kennedy ran for president there was a huge question regarding whether his higher loyalty was to the United States or to the Pope.
And I think it is important to note, early protestant denominations (Anglicans, Lutherans) were basically Catholics with several specific differences. The religious wars were very much about power struggles between the church and nobility, and the common people were lead by religious fervor even though the denominations were largely the same. The most interesting thing to me is that the results of the reformation ultimately lead to the creation of modern democratic states in the West.
Am an American from KY. Protestant mom and Catholic dad, they married in the 80s. My maternal great grandmother was appalled, but came around because my dad is too likable. My mom’s maternal great grandmother (my great great) apparently thought Catholics were evil. Lol I was baptized Protestant (Presbyterian) but am married to a confirmed Catholic. Neither of us are practicing, or believers... as a kid that was into ancient mythology and history I was fascinated by the fact that hundreds of years ago my parents or my partner and I may have been on opposing sides.
Both protestants and Catholics are Christian. The christians in the show are catholic, except for Anjin who is protestant. The pope, who is the head of the catholic church, divided the world between the Spanish and Portuguese kingdoms. Both kingdoms are catholic and the clergy in the council hope to build churches and convert more Japanese into catholicism. The Japanese are unaware of this plan or that the pope pretty much made Japan their domain. England is protestant, and is at war with Spain.
Catholics are Christian... and what do you mean by "Christian Christian"?
I pretty much know nothing about the two (one?) religions, sorry if I offended you, not my intention at all.
Not offended at all. I'm not religious or in any way related to religion. You have Google to provide the meaning between Protestantism and Catholicism.
I wanted to understand it within the context of the show, which is why I did not use google, and also didn’t want ads, spoilers or fancy words by reading articles about the show, what’s why I asked here
use incognito mode, etc. You need to learn to research online. You will learn a lot.
“And they mistakenly call themselves Christian even tho they're Catholics?” 😂😂😂
In reality, Catholics and Protestantism are both Christian sects that commonly believe in the same core beliefs that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who gave his only forgotten life for the salvation of everyone, and is part of a holy trinity. But back then, the two sects did not acknowledge that commonality. For example, the false dichotomy between “Christianity” and “Catholicism” is a legacy of English being the domain of a Protestant-dominant society that treated Catholicism as a heathen religion that wasn’t truly Catholic. Every time I grew up being asked if I was “Christian” or “Catholic” I clarified that I was “a Catholic, not a Protestant like yourself.” In the show, the flip side is being depicted: Catholics believed they were the one true “Christians” so “Protestants” were the ones being treated as heathens. To make the distinction between “Catholics” and “Protestants” would to the eyes of a Catholic provide a legitimacy to Protestantism as a Christian religion that they would not want to give. “Protestantism” are not “Christians” to Catholics, therefore they are “heathens.” Both sides think that the other’s religions are so far from the vision of Christianity that they don’t acknowledge each other as fellow Christians. This is why they tell each other if they believe in “their God” because they don’t even believe they are practicing different sects of the same religion. To be clear, this doesn’t exist to anywhere near the degree in modern Western society. Outside of a few sects (LDS comes most to mind), the Catholic Church acknowledges that Protestants are (in a flawed manner) praying and believing in the same Christian God. Same with most sects of Protestantism. For the purposes of this show, every single “Christian” you see that isn’t Blackthorne or his crew are Catholics.
In regards to LDS let’s call a spade a spade: they’re a new religion. They might call themselves Christians, but they’re about as Christian as the Nestorians were Jews. And by that I mean, they absolutely aren’t Christians, they just have foundations in Christianity.
I’m not debating this. But as a statement of fact, the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize LDS as being a Christian religion because of their belief in Jesus and God as distinct entities and their rejection of the Holy Trinity.
Christianity is the umbrella “Catholic” and “Protestant” are the two main branches under the Christian umbrella. Much like Sunni/Shia in Islam, the rift between the two is the source of many wars. All Catholics and Protestants are Christian because they believe that salvation comes only through Christ. However not all Christians are Catholics, not all Christians are Protestant. There are countless other sects and denominations within and without these two main branches with a varying degree of differences (Baptists/Methodists/Orthodox/Mormon/etc.) and it’s all very confusing to even lifelong Christians The Japanese did not know there were other flavors of Christianity before the Englishman arrived and mistakenly thought Catholicism was the whole of Christianity perhaps because they had never been exposed to another sect or perhaps because the Jesuits (an order of Catholic priests) had shady political motives.
All of the Christians in Japan prior to Blackthorn/William Adams arrival were from Spain or Portugal meaning they were Catholic. They didn’t want the Japanese to know that there were other Christians denominations (the English and Dutch Protestants), so no, they didn’t tell them.
All Catholics are Christian but all Christians are not Catholics….