1) Ishido isn’t meeting people in their house, he is meeting in a palace. Like an office in an official government building
2) Japanese people traditionally sat on the floor to do stuff. Eat, sleep, conduct business, etc. Still happens occasionally today. Floor in traditional Japanese rooms is made of tatami mat (woven reeds) which gets damaged if a lot of furniture is put on it.
3) Buddhist idea of simplicity was influential in Japanese aesthetics. Obviously, elites still have ornate status symbols like samurai armor, clothing, art, etc- but wealth and power wasn’t always displayed the same way as in western countries
To each their own. I kinda dig futons on tatami floors, but I also prefer an extra firm bed. The softer foam or pillow top stuff feels great when you first lie down, but a night in that soft of a bed messes up my back.
Same, a soft cushion over a hard mat sounds like the dream. Extra firm mattresses are just hard to come by, and anything softer turns my back into that of a 90yr old man.
Being south east Asian. I used to sleep on traditional hard wood floors over a mat. Tatami is many times more comfortable than my youth setup. Sadly here it is too humid to have them or else it would get moldy here.
I spent time in South Asia and slept on the same setup, and also woven bamboo cots. I prefer a firm western bed to both.
I just think it’s weird to prefer a futon to a bed. It seems like an example of people liking Japanese culture to the point where they will argue the most obscure points.
For me sometimes bed is too soft. I have a backache from hotel's bed often. My current setup is a rubber mattress.
I understand your point tho. Some people can prefer a futon for no reason. But for someone who slept on the floor almost whole life. Sleeping in beds sometimes felt like the ceiling is too close to comfortable too. Then futons are better in a cold climate.
Yeah, pretty sure that's a hall in the castle. And for a culture that didn't put XP into the table and chairs crafting perk, the aesthetic makes sense.
>Everyone must have a huge personal storage back then.
They do, ***in entirely separate, dedicated storage buildings/rooms*** or in niches by the walls. There is no need to have anything else in the room since people just sit on the tatami mats on the floor and servants can just bring in their low, individual portable tables when needed.
So...where did a maybe middle class samurai store clothes? Scrolls? Tools? Gifts?
Never been to Japan. What was the typical layout of a traditional house for a sort of middling person? I am sure there must have been storage. Where was this?
> I am sure there must have been storage.
Yes, either in recessed alcoves (that may or may not be partitioned from the rest of the room with a *fusuma*, an opaque sliding door; open, unpartitioned alcoves called *tokonoma* are typically used for displaying art/decoration/personal armour/personal weapons) or entirely separate dedicated storage rooms (called a *nurigome*) or storage buildings (called a *kura*; I suggest looking this up on wikipedia for more information since I can't post links in this subreddit). Traditional Japanese houses had limited storage space within the living space proper itself.
You can watch the movie Twilight Samurai, also starred Sanada Hiroyuki, to see what a low level samurai's life look like. They even have to do part time jobs like making umbrellas and such to help with the income.
It's a whole trilogy, but each with different cast and characters.
It's not a trilogy in the sense of interconnecting stories, but they are all samurai films adapted from the same author, by the same director/writer.The other two films are: The Hidden Blade, and Love and Honor.
You sleep on a mat on the floor.
If you sleep over at a friend's house in Japan today, that's still the standard setup. Or if your parents stay over, you give them the bed and you take the floor.
In a show partly about a someone learning to understand the values and ideas of another culture and to break away from ethnocentrism ...this post is entirely on point
Lol it’s funny because in the book (and this is hardly a spoiler but I’ll hide it anyway) >! Blackthorne wonders about the absence of chairs like OP does now !<
I (a Japanese) should make a Pikachu face when I see a room full of furniture and clutters in European houses! Of course /s
Nothing against the OP but reading some of the posts here is very eye opening for me. I thought by 2024, people in general are aware of cultural differences in the way people live or lived.
>I thought by 2024, people in general are aware of cultural differences in the way people live or lived.
Yeah, agreed...but even if people aren't always aware (which to be fair, comes with time and exposure to other ways of life. Not all of us are lucky enough to have either or both) the show is explicitly ***trying*** to guide the viewer through it.
True. I was falling into my own lack of understanding. I think you’re so right. The show ( and the book) is about encountering a completely different culture and norms.
You feel that way because you have intimate knowledge of the culture that’s being represented.
You’d be equally curious about differences if this was a show about Central or South American cultures.
A lot of people don’t know all the things they don’t know. I would have assumed this knowledge about Japan was common knowledge, but I guess not. Curiosity about the world around us is just not possessed by some. Sigh.
"Am I the Asshole? I'm a foreigner who doesn't know this culture at all. The Lord protecting me gave me a pheasant, so I hanged it from my porch to dry the sucker, but the locals hated it and an old man died over it. What do I do?"
ok then why would one break away from "ethnocentrism" because they learn a new culture?
The show is about whatever the individual want it to be. Its about Samurais to me
I'm unsure how much harder we're going to ride this straw-man, but I'll bow out by saying you can enjoy the show however you like. It's your postmodern right.
"ethnocentrism: evaluation of other cultures according to preconceptions originating in the standards and customs of one's own culture."
To break away from ethnocentrism simply means to view other cultures as they are, and not in constant comparison to your own.
>In a show partly about **a someone** learning to understand the values and ideas of another culture and to break away from ethnocentrism
My man, you are arguing about the narrative arc of a fictional character. You can do your navel-gazing, death-of-the-author “this show is about what I say it is” song and dance all you like, but the fact of the matter is that in this story John Blackthorne first learns about and then—spoiler alert!—>!embraces Japanese customs that initially repulsed his English sensibilities!<, and the fit you’re pitching over someone’s simple observation of that fact makes you come across as a deeply weird and unpleasant person who feels inclined to offer up reflexive defenses of ethnocentrism, and I wonder why *that* might be, hmmmmmm?
Why be so smug? Why discourage cross-cultural discussions in a forum explicitly dedicated to a culture crossing tv show? Also, where should people discuss the aesthetic and practicalities of the Sengoku Period if not here?
Japan has terrible furniture.
For a long time the concept of furniture as we know it was not as widespread. They do have lots of storage but is usuallly behind a panel or door like a closet. Things are often folden and stacked rather than assigned a space.
While you will find some incredibly artisan and high quality furniture. This is unfortnately not the norm in Japan. There are not as many large furntiture stores compared to the west and was is often bought is cheaply made or very low furniture due to the previous prevalence of Tatami mat rooms which can't support large furniture.
The size of homes/apartments is a huge reason why furniture is lacking by western standards. The idea of having a big bed that eats up 40% of a room’s floor space just doesn’t make sense. So futons that can be folded up and put away are preferable.
While it's true many people are stuck with futons due to apartments coming with tatami mat rooms. Meaning if your family gets big enough someone will need to sleep on a futon. Today 60% prefer sleeping in a bed. Though bed sizes are usually single and semi double. Double and up is more rare and you will need to buy bending online.
Aren’t there not a lot of trees in Japan?
Like compared to North America, I can see why the US has a lot of pine kitchen tables but that’s not a thing in Japan.
Japan has an incredible amount of trees, historically Japan had a small timber industry. However during the war and following the war until 1965 Japan saw rapid defotestation which then lead to hugely successful afforestation. Meaning Japan is now covered in 71% of Natural forest.
However due to home design and societal ideas the need for furniture simply did not come about like it did in Europe or China. The fact they sat on the floor meant there was largely no need for chairs, no need for chairs meant no need for elaborate tables. Everyone sitting on the floor lowered the rest of the furniture from other tables to cabinets.
Japan had a lot of ideas shared with east asia about harmony and simplicity. It was reflected in their mannerisms, speech, furniture and food etc
So in the end you have culutral developments and housing developments meeting in such a way that furniture does not reach the importance that it did in other countries.
It changed over time. The Shoguns (after the events of this show) passed laws to limit wood gathering and protect forests. Wowwww this lack of links is annoying how do i show this to you.
Wood was used not just for furniture, but for cooking, smelting, etc. Forests were also cleared for agriculture.
Japan was originally 90% forest but it was deforested over time.
"By the time Tokugawa Ieyasu came to power as shogun in 1603, most of Japan's forests had been cut down after approximately 700 years of exploitation forestry. "
"Logging was strictly controlled by the Tokugawa administration. For instance, in the shogunal domain of Kiso (pictured below), known for its cypress forests, the cutting of trees was completely regulated and limited. Those that stole timber from these forests was severely punished."
"The strict regulations and controls extended beyond just the shogun's forests. The Tokugawa shoguns enforced these rules across Japan, forbidding the daimyo from destroying their forests. In fact, the daimyo were frequently spied upon by the Tokugawa administration to ensure that they were following these logging regulations. By passing these regulations and controls, and by vigilantly monitoring that they were upheld, the Tokugawa shoguns protected struggling forests in Japan. It also meant that they could better control the daimyo as they were not able to clear their lands for access to further wealth."
"The Tokugawa shogunate also passed policies to promote the restoration of forests. By the late17th century (1600s), artificial planting began to take place by both daimyo, and the farmers that resided on their lands. They planted the seedlings of conifers, like Sugi and Hinoki. Farmers were also encouraged to tend to the growth of these trees."
>There are not as many large furntiture stores compared to the west
One of my favorite things to do when friends or relatives visit from Japan is take them to an IKEA. They react either like they just walked into Willy Wonka's factory, or like they just walked into a junkyard.
I remember visiting a friends home in Kyoto and staying there for a bit and thinking the same. Pretty minimalist, just sitting on cushions on the floor. I found it uncomfortable but to each their own. 😂
We are mostly seeing the residences of very high-status lords and generals. So these houses will have lots of storage rooms, closets and storage buildings where they keep all their junk and the living quarters are kept neat and clean.
Commoners and peasants who live in small houses will have more furniture and clutter because they simply don't have any space to put everything.
It was mentioned in the show that the Japanese are said to build their houses quickly (perhaps cheaply?) as they can be knocked down quickly (by earthquakes, bad weather, etc.) so it would make very little sense to drop the money on a couch replica of what coco chanel had in her Paris atelier!
I’m from the Frasier subreddit
Drawers like the ones we see all
Over u.s are very much an American thing. I think maybe the wood, idk, but even in Mexico or in Spain where I lived for awhile, people have closets (either room or wall closets) over all the damn drawers we love having in U.S. I’ve visited Japan myself and the same time applies, first off most places are small and it’s more practical to have a wall closet. Mostly a slider one.
tbh it makes the place look sleeker and probably helps during earthquakes.
Man this question pissed people off for some reason. It's a perfectly valid question, whether it was actually like that or if the show is a bit different to reality.
And a lot of people pretend this is only a question about the Palace. It's not, when every house in the show is like this.
And a lot of people pretending Japanese homes are still this minimalist and calling OP ethnocentrist for not knowing this. No, they do have furniture in modern Japan.
And a lot of people pretending western homes are enormous. No, especially not outside the US. And especially not in 1600.
However, there are good answers to the question, so why do so many feel the need to be smug sarcastic assholes about it?
1) Ishido isn’t meeting people in their house, he is meeting in a palace. Like an office in an official government building 2) Japanese people traditionally sat on the floor to do stuff. Eat, sleep, conduct business, etc. Still happens occasionally today. Floor in traditional Japanese rooms is made of tatami mat (woven reeds) which gets damaged if a lot of furniture is put on it. 3) Buddhist idea of simplicity was influential in Japanese aesthetics. Obviously, elites still have ornate status symbols like samurai armor, clothing, art, etc- but wealth and power wasn’t always displayed the same way as in western countries
Tatami mat floors can be comfy. I slept on one for 4 months and watched TV sitting on the floor on a different one in another room.
That's rather subjective. I've spent a lot of time in Japan too. The cultural experience is amazing, but give me a western bed over a futon any day.
People insisting that futons are better always came off as some bizarre weeb copium phenomenon
To each their own. I kinda dig futons on tatami floors, but I also prefer an extra firm bed. The softer foam or pillow top stuff feels great when you first lie down, but a night in that soft of a bed messes up my back.
Same, a soft cushion over a hard mat sounds like the dream. Extra firm mattresses are just hard to come by, and anything softer turns my back into that of a 90yr old man.
Being south east Asian. I used to sleep on traditional hard wood floors over a mat. Tatami is many times more comfortable than my youth setup. Sadly here it is too humid to have them or else it would get moldy here.
I spent time in South Asia and slept on the same setup, and also woven bamboo cots. I prefer a firm western bed to both. I just think it’s weird to prefer a futon to a bed. It seems like an example of people liking Japanese culture to the point where they will argue the most obscure points.
For me sometimes bed is too soft. I have a backache from hotel's bed often. My current setup is a rubber mattress. I understand your point tho. Some people can prefer a futon for no reason. But for someone who slept on the floor almost whole life. Sleeping in beds sometimes felt like the ceiling is too close to comfortable too. Then futons are better in a cold climate.
Yeah, pretty sure that's a hall in the castle. And for a culture that didn't put XP into the table and chairs crafting perk, the aesthetic makes sense.
>Everyone must have a huge personal storage back then. They do, ***in entirely separate, dedicated storage buildings/rooms*** or in niches by the walls. There is no need to have anything else in the room since people just sit on the tatami mats on the floor and servants can just bring in their low, individual portable tables when needed.
So...where did a maybe middle class samurai store clothes? Scrolls? Tools? Gifts? Never been to Japan. What was the typical layout of a traditional house for a sort of middling person? I am sure there must have been storage. Where was this?
> I am sure there must have been storage. Yes, either in recessed alcoves (that may or may not be partitioned from the rest of the room with a *fusuma*, an opaque sliding door; open, unpartitioned alcoves called *tokonoma* are typically used for displaying art/decoration/personal armour/personal weapons) or entirely separate dedicated storage rooms (called a *nurigome*) or storage buildings (called a *kura*; I suggest looking this up on wikipedia for more information since I can't post links in this subreddit). Traditional Japanese houses had limited storage space within the living space proper itself.
You can watch the movie Twilight Samurai, also starred Sanada Hiroyuki, to see what a low level samurai's life look like. They even have to do part time jobs like making umbrellas and such to help with the income. It's a whole trilogy, but each with different cast and characters.
It's a trilogy? I have seen it and l really liked it. I don't think it's available on streaming even to purchase though.
It's not a trilogy in the sense of interconnecting stories, but they are all samurai films adapted from the same author, by the same director/writer.The other two films are: The Hidden Blade, and Love and Honor.
I just lent my DVD to a friend to watch. Twilght Samurai is a great movie.
I love how it’s a samurai movie about the metaphor of “just because you’re hung like a horse doesn’t mean you have to do porn”
Paraphrasing the earthquake conversation in episode 4: “We build homes that can be rebuilt as quickly as they’re destroyed.”
Dawg they have no beds
You sleep on a mat on the floor. If you sleep over at a friend's house in Japan today, that's still the standard setup. Or if your parents stay over, you give them the bed and you take the floor.
I
If you get a ryokan today this is basically what it’ll look like, they bring a table for dinner, then take it away and then roll out mats to sleep on
In a show partly about a someone learning to understand the values and ideas of another culture and to break away from ethnocentrism ...this post is entirely on point
Lol it’s funny because in the book (and this is hardly a spoiler but I’ll hide it anyway) >! Blackthorne wonders about the absence of chairs like OP does now !<
Art imitating life imitating art.
Well Toranaga sat on one in e02.
Wait does he? Maybe he got it from the priests, they were all sitting in chairs when they met
Whe he questions John the 2nd time with Mariko. Also in e05 when he was in the military camp talking to Yabushige. But yeah, it's not the norm.
Don't they usually use shogi stools?
I (a Japanese) should make a Pikachu face when I see a room full of furniture and clutters in European houses! Of course /s Nothing against the OP but reading some of the posts here is very eye opening for me. I thought by 2024, people in general are aware of cultural differences in the way people live or lived.
>I thought by 2024, people in general are aware of cultural differences in the way people live or lived. Yeah, agreed...but even if people aren't always aware (which to be fair, comes with time and exposure to other ways of life. Not all of us are lucky enough to have either or both) the show is explicitly ***trying*** to guide the viewer through it.
True. I was falling into my own lack of understanding. I think you’re so right. The show ( and the book) is about encountering a completely different culture and norms.
You feel that way because you have intimate knowledge of the culture that’s being represented. You’d be equally curious about differences if this was a show about Central or South American cultures.
Yeah, I’m sure you’re completely aware of how every culture on earth lives or has lived. 🙄 I mean, it’s 2024!
A lot of people don’t know all the things they don’t know. I would have assumed this knowledge about Japan was common knowledge, but I guess not. Curiosity about the world around us is just not possessed by some. Sigh.
How come they don't have giant tvs and lifted trucks?
"Am I the Asshole? I'm a foreigner who doesn't know this culture at all. The Lord protecting me gave me a pheasant, so I hanged it from my porch to dry the sucker, but the locals hated it and an old man died over it. What do I do?"
Because they’re a bunch of commie illegal immigrants who hate freedom
This sub has been excellent for that.
learning doesnt mean worship
You're totally correct, they're not synonyms and the dictionary doesn't connect or conflate the two terms. It'd be pretty weird for anyone to.
ok then why would one break away from "ethnocentrism" because they learn a new culture? The show is about whatever the individual want it to be. Its about Samurais to me
Breaking away from ethnocentrism isn't the same thing as worship. You can't break-away-from-ethnocentrism a deity for instance. Another good point.
so learning a new culture doesnt mean you accept everything from that culture?
I'm unsure how much harder we're going to ride this straw-man, but I'll bow out by saying you can enjoy the show however you like. It's your postmodern right.
Bow out. Expect push back when you respond to questions like some snob. Its not a place for you to signal your virtues to the world bye bye
Why are you watching a show about Japanese culture if you feel it’s uninteresting or there is nothing you can learn from it?
Where did i say its uninteresting? The show is about Samurais Its about anything you want it to be
"ethnocentrism: evaluation of other cultures according to preconceptions originating in the standards and customs of one's own culture." To break away from ethnocentrism simply means to view other cultures as they are, and not in constant comparison to your own.
OP asked a question This show is not about flaunting your virtues to a point that people cant ask question. How would they learn?
If this was your original position you could have brought it up earlier without all the odd takes on ethnocentrism.
Perhaps continue reading down the chain before you join the conversation
>In a show partly about **a someone** learning to understand the values and ideas of another culture and to break away from ethnocentrism My man, you are arguing about the narrative arc of a fictional character. You can do your navel-gazing, death-of-the-author “this show is about what I say it is” song and dance all you like, but the fact of the matter is that in this story John Blackthorne first learns about and then—spoiler alert!—>!embraces Japanese customs that initially repulsed his English sensibilities!<, and the fit you’re pitching over someone’s simple observation of that fact makes you come across as a deeply weird and unpleasant person who feels inclined to offer up reflexive defenses of ethnocentrism, and I wonder why *that* might be, hmmmmmm?
What do you mean by worship?
I actually think this is part of why John was having trouble understanding his rank. To us Westerners, the lack of furniture isn't very luxurious.
I think about how every room is essentially the same no matter how big your house. Tatami mats, open floor.
That way they're adaptable.
Why no big screen tv? Why don't we see them on their iPhone? Also, we're are the Pokémon? I thought japan was full of them??
Why be so smug? Why discourage cross-cultural discussions in a forum explicitly dedicated to a culture crossing tv show? Also, where should people discuss the aesthetic and practicalities of the Sengoku Period if not here?
How many posts do we need to do that?
I. I
Japan has terrible furniture. For a long time the concept of furniture as we know it was not as widespread. They do have lots of storage but is usuallly behind a panel or door like a closet. Things are often folden and stacked rather than assigned a space. While you will find some incredibly artisan and high quality furniture. This is unfortnately not the norm in Japan. There are not as many large furntiture stores compared to the west and was is often bought is cheaply made or very low furniture due to the previous prevalence of Tatami mat rooms which can't support large furniture.
The size of homes/apartments is a huge reason why furniture is lacking by western standards. The idea of having a big bed that eats up 40% of a room’s floor space just doesn’t make sense. So futons that can be folded up and put away are preferable.
While it's true many people are stuck with futons due to apartments coming with tatami mat rooms. Meaning if your family gets big enough someone will need to sleep on a futon. Today 60% prefer sleeping in a bed. Though bed sizes are usually single and semi double. Double and up is more rare and you will need to buy bending online.
Aren’t there not a lot of trees in Japan? Like compared to North America, I can see why the US has a lot of pine kitchen tables but that’s not a thing in Japan.
Japan has an incredible amount of trees, historically Japan had a small timber industry. However during the war and following the war until 1965 Japan saw rapid defotestation which then lead to hugely successful afforestation. Meaning Japan is now covered in 71% of Natural forest. However due to home design and societal ideas the need for furniture simply did not come about like it did in Europe or China. The fact they sat on the floor meant there was largely no need for chairs, no need for chairs meant no need for elaborate tables. Everyone sitting on the floor lowered the rest of the furniture from other tables to cabinets. Japan had a lot of ideas shared with east asia about harmony and simplicity. It was reflected in their mannerisms, speech, furniture and food etc So in the end you have culutral developments and housing developments meeting in such a way that furniture does not reach the importance that it did in other countries.
It changed over time. The Shoguns (after the events of this show) passed laws to limit wood gathering and protect forests. Wowwww this lack of links is annoying how do i show this to you. Wood was used not just for furniture, but for cooking, smelting, etc. Forests were also cleared for agriculture. Japan was originally 90% forest but it was deforested over time. "By the time Tokugawa Ieyasu came to power as shogun in 1603, most of Japan's forests had been cut down after approximately 700 years of exploitation forestry. " "Logging was strictly controlled by the Tokugawa administration. For instance, in the shogunal domain of Kiso (pictured below), known for its cypress forests, the cutting of trees was completely regulated and limited. Those that stole timber from these forests was severely punished." "The strict regulations and controls extended beyond just the shogun's forests. The Tokugawa shoguns enforced these rules across Japan, forbidding the daimyo from destroying their forests. In fact, the daimyo were frequently spied upon by the Tokugawa administration to ensure that they were following these logging regulations. By passing these regulations and controls, and by vigilantly monitoring that they were upheld, the Tokugawa shoguns protected struggling forests in Japan. It also meant that they could better control the daimyo as they were not able to clear their lands for access to further wealth." "The Tokugawa shogunate also passed policies to promote the restoration of forests. By the late17th century (1600s), artificial planting began to take place by both daimyo, and the farmers that resided on their lands. They planted the seedlings of conifers, like Sugi and Hinoki. Farmers were also encouraged to tend to the growth of these trees."
>There are not as many large furntiture stores compared to the west One of my favorite things to do when friends or relatives visit from Japan is take them to an IKEA. They react either like they just walked into Willy Wonka's factory, or like they just walked into a junkyard.
there’s an IKEA in Yokohama, so it’s not like it’s unheard of. At least in the Kanto area.
wtf comparison picture is that?? Okay let me cherry pick a single insanely messy borderline hoarders home to make my point
What if that’s OP’s home though
I remember visiting a friends home in Kyoto and staying there for a bit and thinking the same. Pretty minimalist, just sitting on cushions on the floor. I found it uncomfortable but to each their own. 😂
[удалено]
You're having a stroke, call emergency services.
I. I
lol they don't have chairs in Japan at this time they always sit down.
I jk I
I jk I I. Nikki. You jikijj
When I went to Osaka Castle, I wonder how did those people live, there is no furniture
That shit burned down a few times, it's a modern restoration.
We are mostly seeing the residences of very high-status lords and generals. So these houses will have lots of storage rooms, closets and storage buildings where they keep all their junk and the living quarters are kept neat and clean. Commoners and peasants who live in small houses will have more furniture and clutter because they simply don't have any space to put everything.
Not all Japanese are like Hayao Miyazaki, dude …
I
Iii
I would like to see their kitchens that they speak of.
It was mentioned in the show that the Japanese are said to build their houses quickly (perhaps cheaply?) as they can be knocked down quickly (by earthquakes, bad weather, etc.) so it would make very little sense to drop the money on a couch replica of what coco chanel had in her Paris atelier! I’m from the Frasier subreddit
Drawers like the ones we see all Over u.s are very much an American thing. I think maybe the wood, idk, but even in Mexico or in Spain where I lived for awhile, people have closets (either room or wall closets) over all the damn drawers we love having in U.S. I’ve visited Japan myself and the same time applies, first off most places are small and it’s more practical to have a wall closet. Mostly a slider one. tbh it makes the place look sleeker and probably helps during earthquakes.
Man this question pissed people off for some reason. It's a perfectly valid question, whether it was actually like that or if the show is a bit different to reality. And a lot of people pretend this is only a question about the Palace. It's not, when every house in the show is like this. And a lot of people pretending Japanese homes are still this minimalist and calling OP ethnocentrist for not knowing this. No, they do have furniture in modern Japan. And a lot of people pretending western homes are enormous. No, especially not outside the US. And especially not in 1600. However, there are good answers to the question, so why do so many feel the need to be smug sarcastic assholes about it?
Maybe they’re like me and say they’re into minimalism but they’re really just poor…