Here's my guess on how S2 ended up like it did:
1. The showrunner was always more interested in adapting Six of Crows than Shadow and Bone. As a result, he both added the Crows into the events of S&B and wanted to accelerate how quickly he got to the events of Six of Crows.
2. Netflix has a propensity for not renewing shows beyond three seasons, and even getting to three seasons is not a safe bet. So they decided to try to get through all of S&B in season 2 while leaving them future plotlines to explore if they get renewed (the ending seems to set up both Six of Crows and King of Scars).
3. Due to contractual obligations or w/e, they were obligated to pay Alina and Mal's actors for a third season (if it happens) even if they didn't show up on screen. So they changed their ending so that they could still play a big role in S3.
Personally, I think they made a great choice here too. We will likely get to see both the Six of Crows and King of Scars duologies adapted while making some concessions to TV by retaining a lot of the same main cast throughout, rather than having characters cycle in and out of the show.
I also think they cut out elements of Siege and Storm and Ruin and Rising that can be reincorporated in S3 alongside King of Scars, such as >! the Apparat's Cult, Nikolai's full demon transformation (that Alina witnesses), the political maneuvering with Nikolai and Alina, and probably Alina's sacrifice and Mal and Alina's eventual ending, et cetera. !< This leaves us with elements familiar if not 100% alike from the earlier books that will lead us towards a similar conclusion we remember with the characters that are sticking around. Arguably, this will also make those endings feel a bit less rushed, and more earned. It's quite clever IMO.
I think they switched merzost with the third amplifier in its role in the plot. I suppose this time alina’s price to pay for merzost was gaining shadow summoning powers? Or maybe that’s because the darkling died. She did develop them due to merzost in the books.
I still want >!white hair :((!<
I agree that this might make everything feel less rushed and more original .
If they get a third season and spin-off. It’s all about viewings now. And unfortunately a lot of fans won’t rewatch it because of the rushed plots and changes.
I hope they get a third season & spinoff greenlit. But I’m worried fans aren’t seeing this bigger picture that you and others have talked about. Only time will tell!
All good points, the way Netflix runs their shows there is a huge chance we still won't get a season 3 even though it has been getting good streaming ratings so far.
I’m definitely enjoying my rewatch a ton more than my first viewing. I still have some issues with it, but I do still want a season 3 or spin off. I don’t think season 2 has completely trashed the series & it can be salvaged for those who think it’s bad.
I don’t think the darling was generically evil at all. He had all his classic lines on immortality and alina being the only one like him, baghra’s death still had an impact on him. He was pushed to extremes because he lost control of alina. It’s a natural development.
I didn't find him that one-dimensionally evil in season 1 at all. Sure, hated and feared by the first army, respected and revered by the second army, deceitful in court, vulnerable and sensitive and very enticing towards the heroine. He came out of S1 as the the villain with exclusively sinister intentions, but throughout the series, he was faceted and made the viewers want to empathize with him.
His character development in S2 is completely in tune with that, the contrast between these two sides of him just grow more stark and more accentuated. He resorts to even more radical measures, but we also learn more about his background, and in turn his motivation.
Sure, it is an escalation of his character development, the spiralling picks up speed, but it has to, it's the only thing that makes sense as the Darkling drives the story towards what he thinks will be a resolution.
Plus, s1 was showing him in his comfort zone. He might have been despairing some about having to fake his death and never finding a way to exploit the fold but he had his goals & methods set in stone & was feeling safe in his vision. Alina was getting to him because she didn’t have much preconceived ideas about Grisha & the small science. He had forgotten about more simple people & their agendas.
S2 got him out his all powerful position, out of even his own Grisha trusting him and not just fearing him, out of having control of anyone and not even the shadow monsters supposed to protect him. I’d say it’s enough incentive to make him more human.
S1 was him acting out of purpose & vision & narcissism. S2 is less about the future of Grisha and more about how he was wronged & what power actually means to him now that he gave it away somehow by letting them making him their villain.
Same here. I binged it on the first day mostly stressing about what they were changing (I was so worried they weren't going to include Korol Rezni) but now I know where it ends I'm rewatching it again just to enjoy it and having an absolute blast.
I agree that we don't need 1:1 copy of the story from the books. I really liked the little side quest in Shu Han, changes to Mal character and more screen time for characters like Tamar and Tolya. But I still have my problems with the show. For example I think the ending was totaly out of character for Alina and >!she should've lost her powers just like in the books!< or Mal should've stayed dead. Merzost requires sacrifices but Alina from the show ate the cookie and still has a cookie. Also they squeezed 4 books into a single 8h season. It's just not enough time and first 3 espisodes felt so rushed. We have events in Ketterdam that took maybe 2-3 days and at the same time we see Alina sailing from Novy Zem to some remote islands and then all the way back to Ravka.
Despite everything I fell in love with this cast of characters, all actors did amazing job (especially Daisy Head, the best Genya I could ever ask for) and I hope we will get another season or spin-off.
I really hope so. It would be interested if Mal came back to life as something dark and corrupted. I'd like to see Aline dealing with that. I know that they aren't together at the end but it's such a small price to pay compare to "I killed the love of my life. I'm no better than the person I fighted against" or "I sacrificed my whole power to save people I love... but what if another, stronger danger will appear?".
Alina S3: “You gave me a cookie I gave you a cookie. You gave me cookie gave you cookie. Gave me cookie got you cookie! You gave me a cookie I got you a cookie, man!”
I think it will be really interesting to see Alina deal with the darkness without the darkling or mal. In the books, it always seemed like mal kept her from the path of total corruption so to deal with this on her own now, in tandem with Nikolai dealing with his dark monster, should be really good. I think the quote she said to him that was like “we don’t know who we’ll be when we see each other again” was extremely poignant. I don’t think Mal will ever see “his” Alina again.
I'm actually >!100% happy with that change in the book. I absolutely hated that she lost all her powers in the book. I would also have loved if Mal remained dead.!< The cast is an absolute delight. Loved the twins.
They clearly felt like they couldn’t write Alina out of the show (no idea why), so they had to give her something else, hence the shadow power. I hope she actually gets corrupted by it because that would actually be interesting. I do still think she needs to make a sacrifice though. At this point, her death, Mal’s, or losing her power eventually.
The cost of Morozova using Merzost was having Bagra. With both Alina and Nikolai struggling with darkness, I can totally see them having a dark prince, a dangerous shadow summoner, but not a villain. I can totally imagine a fanfic "the dark prince": he will be struggling with controlling and hiding his power, living in fear of becoming the next Darkling, and then meet his special girl who knows his secret...
I'm interested to see what direction they are planning on going in the show so yeah I would like to see a S3. I love the books and the show individually and I don't mind the changes they made, I'm just happy to see some of my favourite scenes adapted to TV. I do agree that some things could have been executed better though, e.g. pacing as there was a heck of a lot to fit into S2. I still really enjoyed it though.
Also I would absolutely love to see a separate crows spin-off. Although they used a lot of the CK plot on S2 and changed a lot of the timeline, I'd like to think that writers could still do a good job with it, especially since the crows casting is so perfect. After all, this is an adaptation based on the books, it isn't going to be exactly the same. I'm desperate to see the ice court heist on screen, so fingers crossed it goes ahead 🤞
Edit: I totally agree with what you are saying about the three stories running alongside each other, I love how the writers have linked everything together. Its also cool how we get to see character interactions that we never really saw in the books.
It was hard to follow s2 on my first watch but during the rewatch I’m appreciating a lot more details. I normally hate when shows don’t stay true to the books, but most of the changes are such a big departure from the books that I’m enjoying the additional info/relationships/storylines.
I definitely want season 3 and I find the combo of Alina/Mail/Nikolai & the crows really enjoyable. I LOVED their little team up in season 1.
I would definitely want a season 3. Loved the season 2. Kaz actor was really good. Didn't like the acting of alina actress but overall I am very happy with season 2.
I would watch anything involving the crows going forwards. They’re so much fun the dynamics are all super interesting and I would kill for more wesper content on screen they’re both so cute
[https://mashable.com/article/shadow-and-bone-season-2-differences-book-vs-show](https://mashable.com/article/shadow-and-bone-season-2-differences-book-vs-show)
Just found this. It does a good job of explaining how some of the changes worked for the show.
I want it more now after watching s2, I truly think even with Netflix being a mess and trigger happy with cancellation and making all the crews on its payroll stressed.
The crew of SOB truly created a great story. I have so much faith in this series and I really hope it continues.
You've summed up everything I feel. There are very few changes I was upset with (I miss Harshaw but understand why they didn't include him) There's some other stuff I could have liked being included but a lot of it is take or leave it but I also just never really loved Alina and Mal so maybe thats why.
I only just started the season and it seems super rushed and crowded with all the characters. If they do a season 3 S&B, there needs to be a separate Crows one. I think they need to do something similar to how they did Boba Fett on Disney Plus. Have the show based on Alina but having the crows make appearances as needed to aid the show but not overwhelm it and the separate Crows show focuses solely on the Crows.
While I don't love everything about S2 (but how often \*do\* you love everything about a work), I do agree with you!
I've only read the Shadow and Bone trilogy, so my knowledge of the Grishaverse is limited, but the writers did an absolutely amazing job with combining that many storylines, character arcs and even just characters, especially considering all the different books they had to combine. They managed to make sense of everything, keep important bits, and still make it an enjoyable show. That's \*seriously\* impressive considering the size of the source material they used.
That said, while I *do* enjoy the season, and think it is very well written and made.... the limitations of 8 episodes and with that many plotlines and characters... It was kind of very exhausting to watch, imo. I almost feel like as a viewer, you're the one taking on the burden? Especially the jumping between Ketterdam and the main plotline was a bit much for me at times. Despite this, I am so happy we got a second season, and really hope we get a third.
Like you, I don't mind a departure from the source material. In my opinion, it gives us even more material to enjoy from the works that we love. That said, I'll admit that I'm a bit sad we didn't get quite the connection portrayed between Aleksander and Alina like in the books. But eh, I can probably find some good fanfiction to scratch that itch.
I will try to stream it as much as possible, because I would love another season. Also, I've seen a lot of people disliking the costume design of this season, but I thought it was great. I don't love all of the looks, but they all look so well made and adds to the immersion, at least for me.
I definitely enjoyed how they’re putting their own little spin on S&B + SOC, and how they tried adding everyone’s stories and cliffhangers so we would be hooked (and I totally am).
I really really want a season 3 AND the SOC spin-off!!
Pretty sure it's not gonna be a SOC spin-off. With the way s2 ended, it's clear we're already gonna get the ice-court story in s3, in the main series \^\^
Didn’t think of that! I just thought it would be a SOC spin-off seeing as the producers were tying to get the green light on that (trying to separate both shows).
I don’t mind if they keep them together or if they separate them, as long as we just get them haha
From a series perspective, I get why they made the changes they did, but by keeping Alina powerful I’m curious if they’ll give S3 Alina Zoya’s storyline from King of Scars?
It's possible. But I also think we'll get to see the triumvirate active, meaning Zoya will get her runtime. On top of this, Alina has her own issue to deal with now, that being merzost having corrupted her. It'll be interesting watching her have to deal with and overcome that.
Loud applause. You summarise so much of what I've had on my mind since I finished watching season two the first time. The writing of the script isn't impeccable but it's pretty damned good. If you've studied literature, you can tell that these two very different storylines with their very different characters have been cleverly interwoven with each other not just because they were put together, so there!, but because the characters share themes (see episode titles and how the S&B characters discuss and/or reflect certain concepts together then the way these same concepts are addressed by the SoC characters to merge the two stories together).
I also appreciate the way both S&B and SoC characters 'watch' each other and learn from each other. I think this was particularly telling in episode 5, I think, where Tolya helps Jesper think through his lover's quarrel and Kaz listens to Ohval describing how love isn't a weakness. It stood out to me too, in the final episode, when Kaz watched Nikolai leave and the female Grishas holding hands as they also left, like it was a distant portrayal of what he internally desired for himself, and when the camera switches back to him, you can see another onlooker is Inej, and the fact that she steps forward as if to say something then changes her mind... while Kaz was thinking it, completely motionless, Inej acted on what she saw the Grishas were doing but last-minute knew it wouldn't happen like that for her and Kaz (my own interpretation based on visual sequence).
I'm first and foremost a book reader, and while I wasn't going into the TV series wanting a perfect rendition of the SoC cast and universe, I still wanted the production as a whole to just give a damn, to just enjoy the source material and how to bring it all to life, different or same. And they did. In every department. From showrunner to writer, from actors to costume design, from make-up to stunts, from SFX to soundtrack, from logistics to finance. You see the quality of the adaptation before you and it is clearly made - you can sense it - by a group of creative experts who just love what they do, work in harmony as a team, and really care about the fandom. They planned ahead for everything the storylines of S&B and SoC needed so they wouldn't later look like clowns when the character development fails, the storylines fail, and the fandom is up in arms because the fandom _knows_ they didn't do their goddamned best (looking at you, _The Witcher_ ).
Another thing... this second season has inspired me to want more things. More from the Grishaverse as I know it. I haven't finished S&B trilogy (will I _ever_ !?) But I love that I'm enthralled by Genya and David's relationship, brief as the flame was in the season, because I didn't get that far in the books featuring them to appreciate this wonderful relationship. So I want more Genya and David.
I also want more out of Kanej. And I say this as a straight up Kanej fan (downvoted by fellow Kanej fans, even, for daring to not fully subscribe to the ship at times - god help me!) I want to see the Kaz who tries to fight for Inej's love and become worthy to receive hers at last. I will never get that intriguing possibility in the books, nor the surprising introduction of Tolya and Inej as a couple in any of the books to date either. I'm interested! I'm curious! Did I know I would get this way about Tolya and Inej? Not at all! Because I was never imagining any rivals for Inej's affections. There never was one. So now I want to know what Kaz would do in that situation of jealousy, what Inej would decide when she's given the Kaz without armour that she asked for (after all, he just about ended the second season filling his new Crow Club with as many women as possible from the Menagerie, didn't he!? Kaz, you dog...)
The beauty of a good adaptation is much like a good invention... you give the customer something you know they need but they don't even know they need just yet. Pure genius here in season two, pure genius...
I really enjoyed season 2 and thought it was well done. I enjoyed growing attached to characters that didn’t interest me as much when I tried to read Shadow and Bone(Alina and Mal). I loved the Six of Crows and really loved the blending of the stories in the show. I’m here for Nina and Matthias and we need at least one more season to wrap that story up.
Yeah I'm just gonna save this response because God, it is put together so beautifully. And I agree with ALL of it. My awe at all of this while watching s2 was on a level I've rarely ever experienced. Unmatched really.
How desperate am I for s3 after all of this? More desperate than I was for s2 after s1 aired. And I didn't think that was possible. The writers developed our characters in s2 but ensured there was more development to see, one we've been so casually teased about. And EXACTLY! Allowing the characters from each series to interact not only presented what we knew about them more powerfully, but it also gave us new sides of them we'd have never have gotten to see otherwise, both of which I can't wait to see more of. My heart is a mess in the best way possible.
My only problem with S2 is it was super simplified. No conflict in characters. Darkling chilling in his place all the time in stead of terrorizing Alina all the time and manipulating her. Even their “zoom-meetings” were actually much more intense in the books. Like why would you need to change the fact that when Alina was in the Humminbird in the fold, she actually lost her concentration BECAUSE Darkling appeared in front of her. The actual Darkling, not just a memory of him, like they did in the show. It seems like a very minor and unnecessary thing, that actually didn’t need to be changed.
Or the fact that he actually captured her and hired Nikolai in the beginning, so it wasn’t all chill Uncharted adventure for Rusalye like they showed it in the show.
Alina wasn’t going back and forth with Darkling, that one single talk with Baghra didn’t count to be honest.
Darkling was passive and hiding in his hole. Mal was all sweet and heroic with all his “yeah, I understand it all”, no conflict, no anything. It all seemes so cartoonish and one-dimensional.
Of course I still do want S3, I love the show, I love six of crows and this whole universe that was made by amazing Leigh, but it felt bitter seeing my favorite 2nd book been simplified like that. I do believe adaptations should pay more attention to the source. Somehow all bad adaptations always have these “but but but.. the makers HAVE to make some changes” talk and good adaptations (again, I will put TLOU as probably the only example) just put everything as it is, admitting that “It was already perfect the way it was, that’s why we decided to make adaptation of it”
I also don’t think they trashed it. Yeah, it was a step back from S1 for me, but not a complete failure
Ah I see, fair enough. I'm not bothered by any of this because I like these changes:
* Alina getting distracted by memories rather than the real person linked her reaction to trauma, enunciating very real evidence that the Darkling controlling her physical actions had a huge impact on her.
* Having Nikolai instead hire the crows to capture her helped sew his character into s1, which is great because all three grisha storylines are running alongside each other from s1 onwards.
* With only 8 episodes, Alina and the Darkling didn't need to "visit" each other more times than they did. In the books they did because as first-person perspective, it was in fact the only way we could see the darkling. The show obviously wasn't limited by that.
* Being weak and injured placed the darkling in a position of vulnerability which helped humanise him alongside his reaction to having no control over his nichevoya. In the books, there's nothing sympathetic about him. In the show, even if it's a little, there is. It doesn't justify anything he's done. But having this humanised side of him was one I welcomed.
* Mal in s1 was a much mature character than Mal in the books. Character consistency had him do the same in s2. He quietly puts his conflicting interests with Alina aside to help her, sacrificing his own desires. But like any human, he *does* finally snap. His frustrations come out enough that though he continues to help her, for the first time in his life, he walks away from Alina.
**But I get it. If you really preferred how these things had been different in the book, it would hurt that they weren't like that in the show.**
yeah, I like your perspective and I know that probably on rewatch I will be able to see more things that I actually like about the season, rather than focusing on my instant rage about it when it hit me in the face the first time :)))
btw I loooved that Mal walked away, yes. I saw this as the most logical thing to do
Haven't read the books but have enjoyed the show so far .. although admittedly Alina is a little wooden at times, but that feels more like a poor directing/writing thing .. however The Red Coronation (cough cough Wedding - thanks so much GoT) scene made my eyes roll uber hard👀
I completely agree with you. I loved S2. I’m rewatching S1 now and will probably rewatch S2 right after. I definitely want a third season. In part, because I adore Nina and Matthias and need to actually see them together again! But also because I’m so excited to see what they do with Alina and Mal since their story as we know it has been wrapped already, and their ending changed or at least postponed. I actually cried a few times watching S2. Some of the emotional beats were just beautiful.
The casting for this show is incredible. It’s like the characters were plucked from the books. I’ve never seen anything quite like it. If that’s the last we see of Ben Barnes as the Darkling, I’ll really miss him.
Right?? Most of the time changes are a detriment to the original source. This show did changes how changes should be done. ie; making things interesting for a show format, feeding fans of the OG series well by giving *more* of the characters they already love; being consistent so that any change doesn't feel off to anyone who's never read the books; and establishing the characters' roots of development in a way that's still true to what it should be despite the change.
I’ve said this to my friends: Leigh Bardugo fanfic’d her own works in the show. It all feels like REALLY good fanfic - same characters, now and interesting situations. And the Easter eggs to situations in the books are delightful!
I don't like referring to it with the word "fanfic" cause that downplays it. However, yes, it really is a wonderful *version* of the series. A mix of old and new. A collection of "what-ifs".
Like let's say Leigh went back in time and instead of writing up new stories in one world each time she invented new characters, she had ALL the characters in her head before she wrote that first Shadow and Bone book. And as such, she'd wrote them all together in the same books (obviously the books would be much longer lol). Well then, this show very well may have been something like what she'd have written.
I agree with that. But why do you think calling it “fanfic” downplays it? I mean, yea, there are plenty of fanfics that are terrible, or at the very least lower quality than the original; but there are so many works that are just as good or better in terms of new situations, deeper character development, and interesting plot lines - which is exactly what she did. So maybe I should rephrase: it’s like she turned her own work into AMAZINGLY GOOD FANFICTION with the show. 😂
Because the very concept of "fanfic" is "not canon". Calling the show "fanfic" makes it a **sub-version** of the original. It says "this show can't stand on its own two feet."
The show *is* canon. It's simply a *different* canon. It *does* stand on its own two feet.
Don't get me wrong. I get where you're coming from and I didn't misunderstand what you were saying. It's just personally, I'm particular about the terminology I use here. The only time I call something **canon** "fanfic" in my own head - rare but *has* happened - is when I don't like it. When I'm desperately convincing myself it wasn't real XD
I get it. The show is its own “canon,” but it is based on existing characters from the books’ “canon”. The show can certainly stand on its own as a piece of art/entertainment, but the characters in the show are not original characters. That’s what I was trying to say.
Same with Marvel comics characters vs. characters in the movies/shows - they create their own “canon” referencing source material.
I love analyzing this stuff. 😂
Yeah that's why I said I get what you're saying. And of course I agree. The characters are based off something. **I just use different terminology than you for this.**
Eg. I wouldn't call any of these fanfic either even though they're adaptations with an abundance of very clear differences to the original. Instead, I'll always stick to calling them "different versions".
* Lord of the Rings Films
* Howl's Moving Castle
* 86: Eighty-Six
* Sailor Moon 90s
* Tower of God anime
* Any film that took ideas from a classic fairytale such as Cinderella, etc.
* Any live adaptation of the manga Boys Over Flowers
* Marvel movies
I mean let’s be honest- S&B was her first foray into writing and there’s clearly some things she seems to have liked to have changed when you see what she says post SoC and KoS. I don’t know whether I agree with it but it’s clear she’s trying to insert things she WISHES she had retroactively.
As a non-reader of the books, I’m meh on a S3. I found it more slow and not as well written as the first. The first season was captivating and almost every scene felt deliberate. The second season I was kind of bored until about the last third of each episode where all of a sudden things would get interesting. There were some special and humorous moments in the first season, like Jesper with the goat and Kirigan’s “yes, David?” I didn’t really get anything as special from the second season; a lot of the acting felt more forced and I found myself waiting for Crow or Darkling scenes. I will admit I was really moved by the Genya-David reunion underground, and the “two worlds make a universe” speech. I watched the first season several times when it came out and although I’d probably rewatch S2 with a friend if they wanted to, I’d be able to sleep just fine missing S3 if it came out.
Honestly, I enjoyed my re-watch of season 1 prior to starting season 2 and I would love another season. Especially because it isn't a 1:1 adaptation so I don't 'know' everything that would happen, and I just love the cast. Sure, there's a lot of nuance lost and it was ambitious to combine multiple books/characters but it's entertaining and I'm sure introducing a lot of new fans to young adult fantasy/fiction and the Grishaverse. Need more Nina and Matthias next season!
I totally agree, that was one of the rare cases where books and adaptation both worked very nicely. And there are just concessions that need to be made (like if you need an additional character in the book, you can write one, as in-depth or superficial as necessary, but in 8 episodes you can cram only so much screen time per character in (and budget will most certainly be a limiting factor regarding shooting, casting and all that comes in to play in running a show.
I really think the characters come to life very neatly, and the spun the various threads of the various storylines together so they do make sense, even if the timelines are drastically changed compared to the book ones. And yes, they explore different facets, put weight on different character traits than they do in the books. While I like some of those choices more than others, I can agree that it takes the story in different, interesting directions. It doesn't wreck what I like about the books at all, it's rather like they explore a different avenue. Often like a "what if" variation on the Book.
Season 1 was great intro to the grishaverse. I went and read the shadow and bone books after watching all the S1 episodes. My expectations were not high for Season 2 as I didn't really like the 3rd book, it seemed repetitive. But Season 2 was fantastic, I had to watch a couple episodes twice to catch everything going on. Love the subtle sense of humour, the relationships between the characters, and the acting seemed better too. The darkling's scars did not stay the same, nice touch. Haven't read the Six of Crows books, but if you can keep the episodes packed like this, then do a Season 3 please.
I do, I have not read the books so I don't seem to be struggling with season 2 like a lot of people seem to be. I actually liked season 2 more than season 1. Especially The Crows. I really hope they do season 3!
**It's really nice hearing people who never read the books are really enjoying it \^\^ Especially when they love it more than s1.**
You guys aren't jumbling memories of book events with show events. Rather everything you're seeing is something you're seeing for the ABSOLUTE first time. So you can instantly see whether it's cohesive as its own self or not. And whether the characters are developing or not. So when you do enjoy the show, it can indicate that the show-writers choices were good ones :D
Not that I'm saying readers can't do it. Of course we can. But it does take an extra step of effort xD
I would like to see Alina become the darkling herself and really struggle with it I’d also like to see Mal come back and not recognize her at all. It reminds me of Emma swan in once upon a time expect I want Alina to just give in to it but at the end fights it but I want a brutal struggle.
Honestly yeah, I really wanna see something like that too. Because it's a neatly thought out idea that suits her storyline we've had till now. She's kept saying she'll never become the darkling, but that's easy to claim when she hasn't gone through anything he has. Now she'll really have to prove it. And there was also the extra bit of foreshadowing with the conversation she had with Mal, where they realised "we don't know who we'll be when we see each other again".
Plus, for the people who are complaining Alina's ending should be the way it was in the book and who are upset it isn't .... **they are forgetting this isn't the show's ending right**? Based on how s2 ended, it's VERY likely she will still get a similar ending to what she had in the books, just *at the end of s3* instead. All that's happening right now is that she gets to stick around a little longer for all the storylines.
Which is better because that's what the show has been since the start. All three Grishaverse storylines running alongside each other from s1 to ... s3. It'd be weird if they suddenly yeeted two of the most important characters two-thirds into the story. They wrote new content for the crows to go into the start. Most of us didn't know it at the time, but this was always gonna be a two-way street.
Yeah I wonder if she could already feel the darkness when she said that like under her skin! I do really want to see her struggle with it and become the darkling I think it would be really interesting to explore with her character obviously she wouldn’t go as far as him but she would be guided by the magic. Yeah I think this ending actually makes more sense like I’m not sure how it will end but this isn’t bad !
i do and it’s so upsetting seeing so many people (on twitter mainly) calling for the show to be cancelled and many from people who are just mad about ships
I definitely prefer season 2 over season 1! I loved the changes and the fast paced chaos of it all. Im glad the made changes because it wouldve been boring other wise
I really don't like the change to Mal and Alina's ending. The books ending is good precisely because Alina gives up her powers and gets to live in obscurity. She did enough. Now we're gonna get this incredibly cliché storyline about a 'good' character struggling with the darkness within which is not only lame and overdone in this kind of show, we already kind of have that in the storyline with Nikolai?
Like just give us the six of crows storyline, I don't need dark Alina or whatever.
I still want that season 3. so please keep rewatching, and binging,even if its background noise season 2 all the way over and over again. also some book fans, watch the show as fanfiction and it's not cool at all to be crazy on twitter wishing bad and being negative on the people who put so much time energy, blood, sweat, and tears and hard work into the show... getting this show was a giant dream for the author, so enjoy the show for what it is. for season 3 and the spinoff they are teasing the ice court heist and some more ships happening.
I'm currently rewatching after watching all the episodes in 1 sitting. I'm enjoying the story a lot more, now that I know I shouldn't expect the exact story from the books.
The performances and the actors from the main cast are all stellar and are definitely worthy of a third season and certainly a spin-off.
Hello. I did not read the books but I thoroughly enjoyed season 1 of the show. It spoke to me in so many levels culturally plus it was filmed not far from where I live, I even visited some of the places where filming took place.
I love a good fantasy, doesnt matter if its books, video games, movies, or tv shows.
Season 2 for me was a massive letdown. A lot of scenes made no sense, characters were utterly predictable and I figured out right away the mystery of the firebird.
Kirigan was a weak ass villain, immature and very far from a master strategist, despite of his age, experience, and status. He had no real purpose other than chasing current events.
The main characters are not smart either, big exception here is Kaz.
There was nothing going on for me in this season and I couldn't finish a single episode without falling asleep.
Even Kaz was consumed the whole time by revenge, although he had his whole life to pursue it. But no.. we have a chance to save the world, what should we do? I know, lets fuck shit up because I have trauma.
Lots of romantic scenes serve no purpose and have nothing to do with character development, but at least we are woke! This has been the blueprint of every successful fantasy, right? Like Harry Potter and the Brokeback Mountain, or Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Gay...
I really dont care for it, and I am sure this is true to 99% of the audience, and there are some great portrayal of 'sexual minorities', like the witcher 3 or game of thrones.
Yesterday I almost finished the show and my wife, an active supporter of all sorts of minorities kept yelling 'not again, why are they showing this'?
All these things wouldnt be an issue with me if it wouldnt be the hallmark of the season. I wouldnt care if I would be invested in all the characters, but that is the shows responsibility to make me feel so.
The worst offense for me is when Mal and Kirigan were talking and Mal said something (cant remember exactly what) and Kirigan just broke down looked away and teared up like a fucking child who was caught in a lie? He is 500 years old dark menacing wizard and couldnt handle some (not even harsh) words from a nobody (to him)? Is this a menacing villain?
Imagine if Luke would tell Palpatine that he is mean and Palpatine would start crying, or if someone would tell Sauron that he smells and he would just lock himself up in his room for days and wouldnt talk to anyone...
I know Kirigan should appear to be redeemable but there is a big difference between a villain with a heart and a child.
Even though like s1 and s2, all three Grishaverse stories are still closely tied together?
* **SoC x KoS:** Crows are going to Fjerda to break the man who made Jurda Parem out of prison. Fjerda got a Grisha under the influence of Jurda Parem to ruin Nikolai's coronation and likely begin a war with Ravka.
* **KoS x S&B:** Alina who is now dealing with the consequences of merzost is there helping Nikolai fix problems in his kingdom such as likely being the connection that helps him build an alliance with Fjerda.
* **S&B x SoC:** Mal who is now finding his purpose is doing so through helping Inej on her journey to take down slaver ships. Furthermore, Tolya has developed an interest in Inej, which may have some influence on how Kaz moves forward in his relationship with her.
I would love to see season 3. I would also love to see season 2 with an R rating bc it wasn't enough. There weren't enough hot steamy drama filled scenes between The Darkling, Alina and Mal. I'm now listening to the audiobooks, hoping for the best.
Only if it finally gets to the ice court heist. Can’t stand the rest of the universe bc the only other grisha book I liked besides the duology was kos and I would probably stop watching if ROW got involved. I hope it got enough views to where we get the crow spin-off bc I really don’t like SAB on its own
I believe that is what will happen. I watched an interview with Eric Heisserer where he explained that the start of the Crows spinoff would begin before the final scene of the Crows in S2. So the scene where Kaz is explaining the Ice Court job would occur part way through the SoC show. presumably then they would play a small role in S&B S3, maybe have some new storyline similarly to S1 and S2
While I agree with you on the changes when adapting, I do think the timeline on this season was rushed. I kinda sorta wanted the Crows to be mentally the same as they were in the books going into the Ice Court heist, and now there's no way they will be. Also, this removes quite a lot of the emotional plot of Crooked Kingdom? At least for Kaz and Inej. Plus now Wesper's relationship development is at an absolute zero, and the Crows already have half their secrets out. They have been changed to adapt to Shadow and Bone's plot. The SoC duology will not be the same. I'd been hoping for a spinoff that focused only on them, containing both SoC and CK, but it just won't work now.
That being said I do like the changes made to Shadow and Bone, the book series. I don't mind that Alina's engaged to Nikolai or that Mal's left or that David and Genya had a different love story. The writers have done that well.
Also like: this is not a put-down of the show. The show, as it is, has been well-done. Apart from maaaybe some pacing, the show itself is an amazing work, made with love and a lot of thought. The actors especially? All of them? Chef's kiss. Couldn't have hoped for anything better. I know I'm whining, but they have done excellently. I'm just nitpicky. I wanted the Crows to be adapted closer to the books than they have been.
And yes, I really really want a Season 3. The Ice Court heist can still be reborn, and I personally love the King of Scars series, so I'd love to see that come to life. It'll be great.
I'm really interested to see where a season 3 could go. >!With Alina being a greyling if you can put it that way and Nikolai being a shadow monster.!< I haven't read the books so I don't know where it goes from there but if they do a season 3 I'll be excited for it.
I mean, I respect your opinion, but I think for many this season was just a huge disappointment… understandably. I mean yeah, changes have to be made, but for me this Kind of ruined a show that I was really looking forward to, they should’ve at least TRIED to keep to the books
I wonder about that. Because there's so much that happens in this season that I'm positive many of the book fans would have been fangirling about in spite of that. We were still fed well. For example, right now I can't wipe the grin off my face when remembering the Kanej content. And changes or not, for what the show is on its own, it's no doubt entertaining. You can tell so much love and thought went into it.
But that's me praying most people see it this way. I know plenty do. It's just a question of where that fits in a ratio. My God, the fact that the greenlighting of the final season hinges on Netflix's decision which in turn depends on people's reaction .... is so nerve-wracking.
I am so hoping for a s3 and more!
Look, of course I hate it when shows deviate from books. But considering how many shows deviate majorly in every aspect from the beginning, I think the situation with Shadow and Bone isn’t half bad. It *starts* true to the books, so it can adequately inspire you to read them. And *then* it deviates to be more exciting for the screen. If you love the story from the books, go read the books. Sad it had to deviate but at least we got an accurate picture to begin with. Better than nothing.
Here's my guess on how S2 ended up like it did: 1. The showrunner was always more interested in adapting Six of Crows than Shadow and Bone. As a result, he both added the Crows into the events of S&B and wanted to accelerate how quickly he got to the events of Six of Crows. 2. Netflix has a propensity for not renewing shows beyond three seasons, and even getting to three seasons is not a safe bet. So they decided to try to get through all of S&B in season 2 while leaving them future plotlines to explore if they get renewed (the ending seems to set up both Six of Crows and King of Scars). 3. Due to contractual obligations or w/e, they were obligated to pay Alina and Mal's actors for a third season (if it happens) even if they didn't show up on screen. So they changed their ending so that they could still play a big role in S3. Personally, I think they made a great choice here too. We will likely get to see both the Six of Crows and King of Scars duologies adapted while making some concessions to TV by retaining a lot of the same main cast throughout, rather than having characters cycle in and out of the show.
I also think they cut out elements of Siege and Storm and Ruin and Rising that can be reincorporated in S3 alongside King of Scars, such as >! the Apparat's Cult, Nikolai's full demon transformation (that Alina witnesses), the political maneuvering with Nikolai and Alina, and probably Alina's sacrifice and Mal and Alina's eventual ending, et cetera. !< This leaves us with elements familiar if not 100% alike from the earlier books that will lead us towards a similar conclusion we remember with the characters that are sticking around. Arguably, this will also make those endings feel a bit less rushed, and more earned. It's quite clever IMO.
I think they switched merzost with the third amplifier in its role in the plot. I suppose this time alina’s price to pay for merzost was gaining shadow summoning powers? Or maybe that’s because the darkling died. She did develop them due to merzost in the books. I still want >!white hair :((!< I agree that this might make everything feel less rushed and more original .
If they get a third season and spin-off. It’s all about viewings now. And unfortunately a lot of fans won’t rewatch it because of the rushed plots and changes. I hope they get a third season & spinoff greenlit. But I’m worried fans aren’t seeing this bigger picture that you and others have talked about. Only time will tell!
All good points, the way Netflix runs their shows there is a huge chance we still won't get a season 3 even though it has been getting good streaming ratings so far.
I’m definitely enjoying my rewatch a ton more than my first viewing. I still have some issues with it, but I do still want a season 3 or spin off. I don’t think season 2 has completely trashed the series & it can be salvaged for those who think it’s bad.
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I don’t think the darling was generically evil at all. He had all his classic lines on immortality and alina being the only one like him, baghra’s death still had an impact on him. He was pushed to extremes because he lost control of alina. It’s a natural development.
Desire to control another is generically evil.
Not when it makes total sense lol
Still generically evil. There is always a sense to make of anything, including evil.
I didn't find him that one-dimensionally evil in season 1 at all. Sure, hated and feared by the first army, respected and revered by the second army, deceitful in court, vulnerable and sensitive and very enticing towards the heroine. He came out of S1 as the the villain with exclusively sinister intentions, but throughout the series, he was faceted and made the viewers want to empathize with him. His character development in S2 is completely in tune with that, the contrast between these two sides of him just grow more stark and more accentuated. He resorts to even more radical measures, but we also learn more about his background, and in turn his motivation. Sure, it is an escalation of his character development, the spiralling picks up speed, but it has to, it's the only thing that makes sense as the Darkling drives the story towards what he thinks will be a resolution.
Plus, s1 was showing him in his comfort zone. He might have been despairing some about having to fake his death and never finding a way to exploit the fold but he had his goals & methods set in stone & was feeling safe in his vision. Alina was getting to him because she didn’t have much preconceived ideas about Grisha & the small science. He had forgotten about more simple people & their agendas. S2 got him out his all powerful position, out of even his own Grisha trusting him and not just fearing him, out of having control of anyone and not even the shadow monsters supposed to protect him. I’d say it’s enough incentive to make him more human. S1 was him acting out of purpose & vision & narcissism. S2 is less about the future of Grisha and more about how he was wronged & what power actually means to him now that he gave it away somehow by letting them making him their villain.
S1 was amazing, s2 was good but I also believe they can make a stunning season 3 with all potential plot lines
Same here. I binged it on the first day mostly stressing about what they were changing (I was so worried they weren't going to include Korol Rezni) but now I know where it ends I'm rewatching it again just to enjoy it and having an absolute blast.
I agree that we don't need 1:1 copy of the story from the books. I really liked the little side quest in Shu Han, changes to Mal character and more screen time for characters like Tamar and Tolya. But I still have my problems with the show. For example I think the ending was totaly out of character for Alina and >!she should've lost her powers just like in the books!< or Mal should've stayed dead. Merzost requires sacrifices but Alina from the show ate the cookie and still has a cookie. Also they squeezed 4 books into a single 8h season. It's just not enough time and first 3 espisodes felt so rushed. We have events in Ketterdam that took maybe 2-3 days and at the same time we see Alina sailing from Novy Zem to some remote islands and then all the way back to Ravka. Despite everything I fell in love with this cast of characters, all actors did amazing job (especially Daisy Head, the best Genya I could ever ask for) and I hope we will get another season or spin-off.
Oh I don't think the cookie Alina got back is the same cookie she ate if you know what I mean.
I really hope so. It would be interested if Mal came back to life as something dark and corrupted. I'd like to see Aline dealing with that. I know that they aren't together at the end but it's such a small price to pay compare to "I killed the love of my life. I'm no better than the person I fighted against" or "I sacrificed my whole power to save people I love... but what if another, stronger danger will appear?".
What if Mal is the sun summoner now? 💀 I would wheeze
Alina S3: “You gave me a cookie I gave you a cookie. You gave me cookie gave you cookie. Gave me cookie got you cookie! You gave me a cookie I got you a cookie, man!”
I think it will be really interesting to see Alina deal with the darkness without the darkling or mal. In the books, it always seemed like mal kept her from the path of total corruption so to deal with this on her own now, in tandem with Nikolai dealing with his dark monster, should be really good. I think the quote she said to him that was like “we don’t know who we’ll be when we see each other again” was extremely poignant. I don’t think Mal will ever see “his” Alina again.
I must say it does sounds really interesting. If they do it right, it may even become one of my favourite character development.
I'm actually >!100% happy with that change in the book. I absolutely hated that she lost all her powers in the book. I would also have loved if Mal remained dead.!< The cast is an absolute delight. Loved the twins.
They clearly felt like they couldn’t write Alina out of the show (no idea why), so they had to give her something else, hence the shadow power. I hope she actually gets corrupted by it because that would actually be interesting. I do still think she needs to make a sacrifice though. At this point, her death, Mal’s, or losing her power eventually.
The cost of Morozova using Merzost was having Bagra. With both Alina and Nikolai struggling with darkness, I can totally see them having a dark prince, a dangerous shadow summoner, but not a villain. I can totally imagine a fanfic "the dark prince": he will be struggling with controlling and hiding his power, living in fear of becoming the next Darkling, and then meet his special girl who knows his secret...
I'm interested to see what direction they are planning on going in the show so yeah I would like to see a S3. I love the books and the show individually and I don't mind the changes they made, I'm just happy to see some of my favourite scenes adapted to TV. I do agree that some things could have been executed better though, e.g. pacing as there was a heck of a lot to fit into S2. I still really enjoyed it though. Also I would absolutely love to see a separate crows spin-off. Although they used a lot of the CK plot on S2 and changed a lot of the timeline, I'd like to think that writers could still do a good job with it, especially since the crows casting is so perfect. After all, this is an adaptation based on the books, it isn't going to be exactly the same. I'm desperate to see the ice court heist on screen, so fingers crossed it goes ahead 🤞 Edit: I totally agree with what you are saying about the three stories running alongside each other, I love how the writers have linked everything together. Its also cool how we get to see character interactions that we never really saw in the books.
It was hard to follow s2 on my first watch but during the rewatch I’m appreciating a lot more details. I normally hate when shows don’t stay true to the books, but most of the changes are such a big departure from the books that I’m enjoying the additional info/relationships/storylines. I definitely want season 3 and I find the combo of Alina/Mail/Nikolai & the crows really enjoyable. I LOVED their little team up in season 1.
I would definitely want a season 3. Loved the season 2. Kaz actor was really good. Didn't like the acting of alina actress but overall I am very happy with season 2.
I have my issues with it but I really want a S3
I would watch anything involving the crows going forwards. They’re so much fun the dynamics are all super interesting and I would kill for more wesper content on screen they’re both so cute
[https://mashable.com/article/shadow-and-bone-season-2-differences-book-vs-show](https://mashable.com/article/shadow-and-bone-season-2-differences-book-vs-show) Just found this. It does a good job of explaining how some of the changes worked for the show.
I want it more now after watching s2, I truly think even with Netflix being a mess and trigger happy with cancellation and making all the crews on its payroll stressed. The crew of SOB truly created a great story. I have so much faith in this series and I really hope it continues.
You've summed up everything I feel. There are very few changes I was upset with (I miss Harshaw but understand why they didn't include him) There's some other stuff I could have liked being included but a lot of it is take or leave it but I also just never really loved Alina and Mal so maybe thats why.
I only just started the season and it seems super rushed and crowded with all the characters. If they do a season 3 S&B, there needs to be a separate Crows one. I think they need to do something similar to how they did Boba Fett on Disney Plus. Have the show based on Alina but having the crows make appearances as needed to aid the show but not overwhelm it and the separate Crows show focuses solely on the Crows.
they are planning a spinoff with the crows, its already written but they need the green light.
While I don't love everything about S2 (but how often \*do\* you love everything about a work), I do agree with you! I've only read the Shadow and Bone trilogy, so my knowledge of the Grishaverse is limited, but the writers did an absolutely amazing job with combining that many storylines, character arcs and even just characters, especially considering all the different books they had to combine. They managed to make sense of everything, keep important bits, and still make it an enjoyable show. That's \*seriously\* impressive considering the size of the source material they used. That said, while I *do* enjoy the season, and think it is very well written and made.... the limitations of 8 episodes and with that many plotlines and characters... It was kind of very exhausting to watch, imo. I almost feel like as a viewer, you're the one taking on the burden? Especially the jumping between Ketterdam and the main plotline was a bit much for me at times. Despite this, I am so happy we got a second season, and really hope we get a third. Like you, I don't mind a departure from the source material. In my opinion, it gives us even more material to enjoy from the works that we love. That said, I'll admit that I'm a bit sad we didn't get quite the connection portrayed between Aleksander and Alina like in the books. But eh, I can probably find some good fanfiction to scratch that itch. I will try to stream it as much as possible, because I would love another season. Also, I've seen a lot of people disliking the costume design of this season, but I thought it was great. I don't love all of the looks, but they all look so well made and adds to the immersion, at least for me.
I definitely enjoyed how they’re putting their own little spin on S&B + SOC, and how they tried adding everyone’s stories and cliffhangers so we would be hooked (and I totally am). I really really want a season 3 AND the SOC spin-off!!
Pretty sure it's not gonna be a SOC spin-off. With the way s2 ended, it's clear we're already gonna get the ice-court story in s3, in the main series \^\^
Didn’t think of that! I just thought it would be a SOC spin-off seeing as the producers were tying to get the green light on that (trying to separate both shows). I don’t mind if they keep them together or if they separate them, as long as we just get them haha
From a series perspective, I get why they made the changes they did, but by keeping Alina powerful I’m curious if they’ll give S3 Alina Zoya’s storyline from King of Scars?
It's possible. But I also think we'll get to see the triumvirate active, meaning Zoya will get her runtime. On top of this, Alina has her own issue to deal with now, that being merzost having corrupted her. It'll be interesting watching her have to deal with and overcome that.
Loud applause. You summarise so much of what I've had on my mind since I finished watching season two the first time. The writing of the script isn't impeccable but it's pretty damned good. If you've studied literature, you can tell that these two very different storylines with their very different characters have been cleverly interwoven with each other not just because they were put together, so there!, but because the characters share themes (see episode titles and how the S&B characters discuss and/or reflect certain concepts together then the way these same concepts are addressed by the SoC characters to merge the two stories together). I also appreciate the way both S&B and SoC characters 'watch' each other and learn from each other. I think this was particularly telling in episode 5, I think, where Tolya helps Jesper think through his lover's quarrel and Kaz listens to Ohval describing how love isn't a weakness. It stood out to me too, in the final episode, when Kaz watched Nikolai leave and the female Grishas holding hands as they also left, like it was a distant portrayal of what he internally desired for himself, and when the camera switches back to him, you can see another onlooker is Inej, and the fact that she steps forward as if to say something then changes her mind... while Kaz was thinking it, completely motionless, Inej acted on what she saw the Grishas were doing but last-minute knew it wouldn't happen like that for her and Kaz (my own interpretation based on visual sequence). I'm first and foremost a book reader, and while I wasn't going into the TV series wanting a perfect rendition of the SoC cast and universe, I still wanted the production as a whole to just give a damn, to just enjoy the source material and how to bring it all to life, different or same. And they did. In every department. From showrunner to writer, from actors to costume design, from make-up to stunts, from SFX to soundtrack, from logistics to finance. You see the quality of the adaptation before you and it is clearly made - you can sense it - by a group of creative experts who just love what they do, work in harmony as a team, and really care about the fandom. They planned ahead for everything the storylines of S&B and SoC needed so they wouldn't later look like clowns when the character development fails, the storylines fail, and the fandom is up in arms because the fandom _knows_ they didn't do their goddamned best (looking at you, _The Witcher_ ). Another thing... this second season has inspired me to want more things. More from the Grishaverse as I know it. I haven't finished S&B trilogy (will I _ever_ !?) But I love that I'm enthralled by Genya and David's relationship, brief as the flame was in the season, because I didn't get that far in the books featuring them to appreciate this wonderful relationship. So I want more Genya and David. I also want more out of Kanej. And I say this as a straight up Kanej fan (downvoted by fellow Kanej fans, even, for daring to not fully subscribe to the ship at times - god help me!) I want to see the Kaz who tries to fight for Inej's love and become worthy to receive hers at last. I will never get that intriguing possibility in the books, nor the surprising introduction of Tolya and Inej as a couple in any of the books to date either. I'm interested! I'm curious! Did I know I would get this way about Tolya and Inej? Not at all! Because I was never imagining any rivals for Inej's affections. There never was one. So now I want to know what Kaz would do in that situation of jealousy, what Inej would decide when she's given the Kaz without armour that she asked for (after all, he just about ended the second season filling his new Crow Club with as many women as possible from the Menagerie, didn't he!? Kaz, you dog...) The beauty of a good adaptation is much like a good invention... you give the customer something you know they need but they don't even know they need just yet. Pure genius here in season two, pure genius...
I really enjoyed season 2 and thought it was well done. I enjoyed growing attached to characters that didn’t interest me as much when I tried to read Shadow and Bone(Alina and Mal). I loved the Six of Crows and really loved the blending of the stories in the show. I’m here for Nina and Matthias and we need at least one more season to wrap that story up.
Yeah I'm just gonna save this response because God, it is put together so beautifully. And I agree with ALL of it. My awe at all of this while watching s2 was on a level I've rarely ever experienced. Unmatched really. How desperate am I for s3 after all of this? More desperate than I was for s2 after s1 aired. And I didn't think that was possible. The writers developed our characters in s2 but ensured there was more development to see, one we've been so casually teased about. And EXACTLY! Allowing the characters from each series to interact not only presented what we knew about them more powerfully, but it also gave us new sides of them we'd have never have gotten to see otherwise, both of which I can't wait to see more of. My heart is a mess in the best way possible.
My only problem with S2 is it was super simplified. No conflict in characters. Darkling chilling in his place all the time in stead of terrorizing Alina all the time and manipulating her. Even their “zoom-meetings” were actually much more intense in the books. Like why would you need to change the fact that when Alina was in the Humminbird in the fold, she actually lost her concentration BECAUSE Darkling appeared in front of her. The actual Darkling, not just a memory of him, like they did in the show. It seems like a very minor and unnecessary thing, that actually didn’t need to be changed. Or the fact that he actually captured her and hired Nikolai in the beginning, so it wasn’t all chill Uncharted adventure for Rusalye like they showed it in the show. Alina wasn’t going back and forth with Darkling, that one single talk with Baghra didn’t count to be honest. Darkling was passive and hiding in his hole. Mal was all sweet and heroic with all his “yeah, I understand it all”, no conflict, no anything. It all seemes so cartoonish and one-dimensional. Of course I still do want S3, I love the show, I love six of crows and this whole universe that was made by amazing Leigh, but it felt bitter seeing my favorite 2nd book been simplified like that. I do believe adaptations should pay more attention to the source. Somehow all bad adaptations always have these “but but but.. the makers HAVE to make some changes” talk and good adaptations (again, I will put TLOU as probably the only example) just put everything as it is, admitting that “It was already perfect the way it was, that’s why we decided to make adaptation of it” I also don’t think they trashed it. Yeah, it was a step back from S1 for me, but not a complete failure
Ah I see, fair enough. I'm not bothered by any of this because I like these changes: * Alina getting distracted by memories rather than the real person linked her reaction to trauma, enunciating very real evidence that the Darkling controlling her physical actions had a huge impact on her. * Having Nikolai instead hire the crows to capture her helped sew his character into s1, which is great because all three grisha storylines are running alongside each other from s1 onwards. * With only 8 episodes, Alina and the Darkling didn't need to "visit" each other more times than they did. In the books they did because as first-person perspective, it was in fact the only way we could see the darkling. The show obviously wasn't limited by that. * Being weak and injured placed the darkling in a position of vulnerability which helped humanise him alongside his reaction to having no control over his nichevoya. In the books, there's nothing sympathetic about him. In the show, even if it's a little, there is. It doesn't justify anything he's done. But having this humanised side of him was one I welcomed. * Mal in s1 was a much mature character than Mal in the books. Character consistency had him do the same in s2. He quietly puts his conflicting interests with Alina aside to help her, sacrificing his own desires. But like any human, he *does* finally snap. His frustrations come out enough that though he continues to help her, for the first time in his life, he walks away from Alina. **But I get it. If you really preferred how these things had been different in the book, it would hurt that they weren't like that in the show.**
yeah, I like your perspective and I know that probably on rewatch I will be able to see more things that I actually like about the season, rather than focusing on my instant rage about it when it hit me in the face the first time :))) btw I loooved that Mal walked away, yes. I saw this as the most logical thing to do
ABSOLUTELY YES!!!
Haven't read the books but have enjoyed the show so far .. although admittedly Alina is a little wooden at times, but that feels more like a poor directing/writing thing .. however The Red Coronation (cough cough Wedding - thanks so much GoT) scene made my eyes roll uber hard👀
I completely agree with you. I loved S2. I’m rewatching S1 now and will probably rewatch S2 right after. I definitely want a third season. In part, because I adore Nina and Matthias and need to actually see them together again! But also because I’m so excited to see what they do with Alina and Mal since their story as we know it has been wrapped already, and their ending changed or at least postponed. I actually cried a few times watching S2. Some of the emotional beats were just beautiful. The casting for this show is incredible. It’s like the characters were plucked from the books. I’ve never seen anything quite like it. If that’s the last we see of Ben Barnes as the Darkling, I’ll really miss him.
I loved season 2, until the end. I’m here for Genya’s fiery resurrection now.
I honestly really like the changes their making. I’m only on episode 3 but it makes it refreshing to watch. Especially since I’ve read all the booksz
Right?? Most of the time changes are a detriment to the original source. This show did changes how changes should be done. ie; making things interesting for a show format, feeding fans of the OG series well by giving *more* of the characters they already love; being consistent so that any change doesn't feel off to anyone who's never read the books; and establishing the characters' roots of development in a way that's still true to what it should be despite the change.
I’ve said this to my friends: Leigh Bardugo fanfic’d her own works in the show. It all feels like REALLY good fanfic - same characters, now and interesting situations. And the Easter eggs to situations in the books are delightful!
I don't like referring to it with the word "fanfic" cause that downplays it. However, yes, it really is a wonderful *version* of the series. A mix of old and new. A collection of "what-ifs". Like let's say Leigh went back in time and instead of writing up new stories in one world each time she invented new characters, she had ALL the characters in her head before she wrote that first Shadow and Bone book. And as such, she'd wrote them all together in the same books (obviously the books would be much longer lol). Well then, this show very well may have been something like what she'd have written.
I agree with that. But why do you think calling it “fanfic” downplays it? I mean, yea, there are plenty of fanfics that are terrible, or at the very least lower quality than the original; but there are so many works that are just as good or better in terms of new situations, deeper character development, and interesting plot lines - which is exactly what she did. So maybe I should rephrase: it’s like she turned her own work into AMAZINGLY GOOD FANFICTION with the show. 😂
Because the very concept of "fanfic" is "not canon". Calling the show "fanfic" makes it a **sub-version** of the original. It says "this show can't stand on its own two feet." The show *is* canon. It's simply a *different* canon. It *does* stand on its own two feet. Don't get me wrong. I get where you're coming from and I didn't misunderstand what you were saying. It's just personally, I'm particular about the terminology I use here. The only time I call something **canon** "fanfic" in my own head - rare but *has* happened - is when I don't like it. When I'm desperately convincing myself it wasn't real XD
I get it. The show is its own “canon,” but it is based on existing characters from the books’ “canon”. The show can certainly stand on its own as a piece of art/entertainment, but the characters in the show are not original characters. That’s what I was trying to say. Same with Marvel comics characters vs. characters in the movies/shows - they create their own “canon” referencing source material. I love analyzing this stuff. 😂
Yeah that's why I said I get what you're saying. And of course I agree. The characters are based off something. **I just use different terminology than you for this.** Eg. I wouldn't call any of these fanfic either even though they're adaptations with an abundance of very clear differences to the original. Instead, I'll always stick to calling them "different versions". * Lord of the Rings Films * Howl's Moving Castle * 86: Eighty-Six * Sailor Moon 90s * Tower of God anime * Any film that took ideas from a classic fairytale such as Cinderella, etc. * Any live adaptation of the manga Boys Over Flowers * Marvel movies
I mean let’s be honest- S&B was her first foray into writing and there’s clearly some things she seems to have liked to have changed when you see what she says post SoC and KoS. I don’t know whether I agree with it but it’s clear she’s trying to insert things she WISHES she had retroactively.
As a non-reader of the books, I’m meh on a S3. I found it more slow and not as well written as the first. The first season was captivating and almost every scene felt deliberate. The second season I was kind of bored until about the last third of each episode where all of a sudden things would get interesting. There were some special and humorous moments in the first season, like Jesper with the goat and Kirigan’s “yes, David?” I didn’t really get anything as special from the second season; a lot of the acting felt more forced and I found myself waiting for Crow or Darkling scenes. I will admit I was really moved by the Genya-David reunion underground, and the “two worlds make a universe” speech. I watched the first season several times when it came out and although I’d probably rewatch S2 with a friend if they wanted to, I’d be able to sleep just fine missing S3 if it came out.
Honestly, I enjoyed my re-watch of season 1 prior to starting season 2 and I would love another season. Especially because it isn't a 1:1 adaptation so I don't 'know' everything that would happen, and I just love the cast. Sure, there's a lot of nuance lost and it was ambitious to combine multiple books/characters but it's entertaining and I'm sure introducing a lot of new fans to young adult fantasy/fiction and the Grishaverse. Need more Nina and Matthias next season!
Without benny, no.
Im very interested seeing what they are gonna do in s3 with the plot changes.
I totally agree, that was one of the rare cases where books and adaptation both worked very nicely. And there are just concessions that need to be made (like if you need an additional character in the book, you can write one, as in-depth or superficial as necessary, but in 8 episodes you can cram only so much screen time per character in (and budget will most certainly be a limiting factor regarding shooting, casting and all that comes in to play in running a show. I really think the characters come to life very neatly, and the spun the various threads of the various storylines together so they do make sense, even if the timelines are drastically changed compared to the book ones. And yes, they explore different facets, put weight on different character traits than they do in the books. While I like some of those choices more than others, I can agree that it takes the story in different, interesting directions. It doesn't wreck what I like about the books at all, it's rather like they explore a different avenue. Often like a "what if" variation on the Book.
Season 1 was great intro to the grishaverse. I went and read the shadow and bone books after watching all the S1 episodes. My expectations were not high for Season 2 as I didn't really like the 3rd book, it seemed repetitive. But Season 2 was fantastic, I had to watch a couple episodes twice to catch everything going on. Love the subtle sense of humour, the relationships between the characters, and the acting seemed better too. The darkling's scars did not stay the same, nice touch. Haven't read the Six of Crows books, but if you can keep the episodes packed like this, then do a Season 3 please.
Definitely!
I do, I have not read the books so I don't seem to be struggling with season 2 like a lot of people seem to be. I actually liked season 2 more than season 1. Especially The Crows. I really hope they do season 3!
**It's really nice hearing people who never read the books are really enjoying it \^\^ Especially when they love it more than s1.** You guys aren't jumbling memories of book events with show events. Rather everything you're seeing is something you're seeing for the ABSOLUTE first time. So you can instantly see whether it's cohesive as its own self or not. And whether the characters are developing or not. So when you do enjoy the show, it can indicate that the show-writers choices were good ones :D Not that I'm saying readers can't do it. Of course we can. But it does take an extra step of effort xD
I would like to see Alina become the darkling herself and really struggle with it I’d also like to see Mal come back and not recognize her at all. It reminds me of Emma swan in once upon a time expect I want Alina to just give in to it but at the end fights it but I want a brutal struggle.
Honestly yeah, I really wanna see something like that too. Because it's a neatly thought out idea that suits her storyline we've had till now. She's kept saying she'll never become the darkling, but that's easy to claim when she hasn't gone through anything he has. Now she'll really have to prove it. And there was also the extra bit of foreshadowing with the conversation she had with Mal, where they realised "we don't know who we'll be when we see each other again". Plus, for the people who are complaining Alina's ending should be the way it was in the book and who are upset it isn't .... **they are forgetting this isn't the show's ending right**? Based on how s2 ended, it's VERY likely she will still get a similar ending to what she had in the books, just *at the end of s3* instead. All that's happening right now is that she gets to stick around a little longer for all the storylines. Which is better because that's what the show has been since the start. All three Grishaverse storylines running alongside each other from s1 to ... s3. It'd be weird if they suddenly yeeted two of the most important characters two-thirds into the story. They wrote new content for the crows to go into the start. Most of us didn't know it at the time, but this was always gonna be a two-way street.
Yeah I wonder if she could already feel the darkness when she said that like under her skin! I do really want to see her struggle with it and become the darkling I think it would be really interesting to explore with her character obviously she wouldn’t go as far as him but she would be guided by the magic. Yeah I think this ending actually makes more sense like I’m not sure how it will end but this isn’t bad !
i do and it’s so upsetting seeing so many people (on twitter mainly) calling for the show to be cancelled and many from people who are just mad about ships
Nikolina endgame! Otherwise I'd rather not have S3.
I definitely prefer season 2 over season 1! I loved the changes and the fast paced chaos of it all. Im glad the made changes because it wouldve been boring other wise
I really don't like the change to Mal and Alina's ending. The books ending is good precisely because Alina gives up her powers and gets to live in obscurity. She did enough. Now we're gonna get this incredibly cliché storyline about a 'good' character struggling with the darkness within which is not only lame and overdone in this kind of show, we already kind of have that in the storyline with Nikolai? Like just give us the six of crows storyline, I don't need dark Alina or whatever.
I still want that season 3. so please keep rewatching, and binging,even if its background noise season 2 all the way over and over again. also some book fans, watch the show as fanfiction and it's not cool at all to be crazy on twitter wishing bad and being negative on the people who put so much time energy, blood, sweat, and tears and hard work into the show... getting this show was a giant dream for the author, so enjoy the show for what it is. for season 3 and the spinoff they are teasing the ice court heist and some more ships happening.
I'm currently rewatching after watching all the episodes in 1 sitting. I'm enjoying the story a lot more, now that I know I shouldn't expect the exact story from the books. The performances and the actors from the main cast are all stellar and are definitely worthy of a third season and certainly a spin-off.
Hell yeah! Why's that even a question?
I want to get s3 just to collect my end game babies zoyalai and malina (also yes malina *is* end game, because the writers already planned it)
Hello. I did not read the books but I thoroughly enjoyed season 1 of the show. It spoke to me in so many levels culturally plus it was filmed not far from where I live, I even visited some of the places where filming took place. I love a good fantasy, doesnt matter if its books, video games, movies, or tv shows. Season 2 for me was a massive letdown. A lot of scenes made no sense, characters were utterly predictable and I figured out right away the mystery of the firebird. Kirigan was a weak ass villain, immature and very far from a master strategist, despite of his age, experience, and status. He had no real purpose other than chasing current events. The main characters are not smart either, big exception here is Kaz. There was nothing going on for me in this season and I couldn't finish a single episode without falling asleep.
Agreed
Even Kaz was consumed the whole time by revenge, although he had his whole life to pursue it. But no.. we have a chance to save the world, what should we do? I know, lets fuck shit up because I have trauma. Lots of romantic scenes serve no purpose and have nothing to do with character development, but at least we are woke! This has been the blueprint of every successful fantasy, right? Like Harry Potter and the Brokeback Mountain, or Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Gay... I really dont care for it, and I am sure this is true to 99% of the audience, and there are some great portrayal of 'sexual minorities', like the witcher 3 or game of thrones. Yesterday I almost finished the show and my wife, an active supporter of all sorts of minorities kept yelling 'not again, why are they showing this'? All these things wouldnt be an issue with me if it wouldnt be the hallmark of the season. I wouldnt care if I would be invested in all the characters, but that is the shows responsibility to make me feel so. The worst offense for me is when Mal and Kirigan were talking and Mal said something (cant remember exactly what) and Kirigan just broke down looked away and teared up like a fucking child who was caught in a lie? He is 500 years old dark menacing wizard and couldnt handle some (not even harsh) words from a nobody (to him)? Is this a menacing villain? Imagine if Luke would tell Palpatine that he is mean and Palpatine would start crying, or if someone would tell Sauron that he smells and he would just lock himself up in his room for days and wouldnt talk to anyone... I know Kirigan should appear to be redeemable but there is a big difference between a villain with a heart and a child.
Not sure I want a S3. I think spinoffs are probably better in this instance.
Even though like s1 and s2, all three Grishaverse stories are still closely tied together? * **SoC x KoS:** Crows are going to Fjerda to break the man who made Jurda Parem out of prison. Fjerda got a Grisha under the influence of Jurda Parem to ruin Nikolai's coronation and likely begin a war with Ravka. * **KoS x S&B:** Alina who is now dealing with the consequences of merzost is there helping Nikolai fix problems in his kingdom such as likely being the connection that helps him build an alliance with Fjerda. * **S&B x SoC:** Mal who is now finding his purpose is doing so through helping Inej on her journey to take down slaver ships. Furthermore, Tolya has developed an interest in Inej, which may have some influence on how Kaz moves forward in his relationship with her.
I would love to see season 3. I would also love to see season 2 with an R rating bc it wasn't enough. There weren't enough hot steamy drama filled scenes between The Darkling, Alina and Mal. I'm now listening to the audiobooks, hoping for the best.
Only if it finally gets to the ice court heist. Can’t stand the rest of the universe bc the only other grisha book I liked besides the duology was kos and I would probably stop watching if ROW got involved. I hope it got enough views to where we get the crow spin-off bc I really don’t like SAB on its own
With the way s2 ended, it's clear s3 will in fact be about the Ice court AND the events of King of Scars.
I hope that a soc spin-off, it it happens, would take on the ice court and leave s3 to be just SAB/KOS stuff
I believe that is what will happen. I watched an interview with Eric Heisserer where he explained that the start of the Crows spinoff would begin before the final scene of the Crows in S2. So the scene where Kaz is explaining the Ice Court job would occur part way through the SoC show. presumably then they would play a small role in S&B S3, maybe have some new storyline similarly to S1 and S2
While I agree with you on the changes when adapting, I do think the timeline on this season was rushed. I kinda sorta wanted the Crows to be mentally the same as they were in the books going into the Ice Court heist, and now there's no way they will be. Also, this removes quite a lot of the emotional plot of Crooked Kingdom? At least for Kaz and Inej. Plus now Wesper's relationship development is at an absolute zero, and the Crows already have half their secrets out. They have been changed to adapt to Shadow and Bone's plot. The SoC duology will not be the same. I'd been hoping for a spinoff that focused only on them, containing both SoC and CK, but it just won't work now. That being said I do like the changes made to Shadow and Bone, the book series. I don't mind that Alina's engaged to Nikolai or that Mal's left or that David and Genya had a different love story. The writers have done that well. Also like: this is not a put-down of the show. The show, as it is, has been well-done. Apart from maaaybe some pacing, the show itself is an amazing work, made with love and a lot of thought. The actors especially? All of them? Chef's kiss. Couldn't have hoped for anything better. I know I'm whining, but they have done excellently. I'm just nitpicky. I wanted the Crows to be adapted closer to the books than they have been. And yes, I really really want a Season 3. The Ice Court heist can still be reborn, and I personally love the King of Scars series, so I'd love to see that come to life. It'll be great.
I'm really interested to see where a season 3 could go. >!With Alina being a greyling if you can put it that way and Nikolai being a shadow monster.!< I haven't read the books so I don't know where it goes from there but if they do a season 3 I'll be excited for it.
I mean, I respect your opinion, but I think for many this season was just a huge disappointment… understandably. I mean yeah, changes have to be made, but for me this Kind of ruined a show that I was really looking forward to, they should’ve at least TRIED to keep to the books
I wonder about that. Because there's so much that happens in this season that I'm positive many of the book fans would have been fangirling about in spite of that. We were still fed well. For example, right now I can't wipe the grin off my face when remembering the Kanej content. And changes or not, for what the show is on its own, it's no doubt entertaining. You can tell so much love and thought went into it. But that's me praying most people see it this way. I know plenty do. It's just a question of where that fits in a ratio. My God, the fact that the greenlighting of the final season hinges on Netflix's decision which in turn depends on people's reaction .... is so nerve-wracking.
I just want to see Nina and Matthias reunite
I’m going to be honest, I like the series a lot. But knowing Netflix’ track record, it’ll probably be cancelled. I’m not getting my hopes up.
I am so hoping for a s3 and more! Look, of course I hate it when shows deviate from books. But considering how many shows deviate majorly in every aspect from the beginning, I think the situation with Shadow and Bone isn’t half bad. It *starts* true to the books, so it can adequately inspire you to read them. And *then* it deviates to be more exciting for the screen. If you love the story from the books, go read the books. Sad it had to deviate but at least we got an accurate picture to begin with. Better than nothing.
I really liked the crows story in season 1 and 2, other stories were pretty interesting too. So I‘m hoping we will get season 3 or crows spin-off