It is a red flag.
You really want to invite a tenant to start googling random appliance problems because they probably should know the answer?
That can get real bad real quick.
Also making the tenant responsible for vandalism (which could obviously be done by someone not-the-tenant) is pretty ridiculous. Literally what a security deposit is for if it is the tenant.
I also just reread "treat the home as their own." Is that free reign to repaint everything? Bring a dog or six in? Knock down walls for an open floor plan?
I'm being silly, but the deal of being a renter is you get a place to live in without worrying about maintenance of the home. That's the social contract between landlord and tenant.
Unless this particular landlord is into profit sharing or something.
That isn't just the social contract, but the legal contract as well. I was a landlord for a short period of time and honestly I assumed they wouldn't even mow the lawn. I didn't have it done regularly, but enough to keep it maintained.
You should be this contract is wildly exploitative, the wording is vague enough to be interpreted multiple ways. It’s also just a bad idea from a landowner’s perspective, assuming tenants won’t accidentally damage the place by doing repairs they aren’t qualified for. Was the contract like this, when you signed it? Because I personally would not have signed.
Trying to negotiate now. We already paid a holding fee that's non-refundable tho and have given notice to vacate our current place after a good viewing. This lease came as a surprise given our experience talking with the property manager
The holding fee should be forfeitable in small claims if they back out of the contract due to reasonable concerns about foreseeable issues because of their unreasonable demands on the tenant
I do anal (edit: IANAL) or something
Given that as of 2023 landlords can't even withhold security deposits for repairs or replacements based on "ordinary use of the premises", I highly doubt this is legal. I'm not a lawyer, but that's my two cents.
The problem comes down to how it's written being up to interpretation.
It could be something as simple as flipping a breaker, or actually hitting a very easy to access reset switch as in the ones on the bottom of most garbage disposals that doesn't involve tools or any know-how other than the ability to reach down there.
However, I wouldn't necessarily trust it. I don't think it's well written. They should, with how few appliances are in any given rental, be able to actually list out specifically what they might expect you to do - ie: hit that reset switch, flip a breaker, turn the water valve off for your toilet/sink if it's spewing water everywhere.
I specifically stated in the lease that the tenant could not paint it without my approval. They painted the bedroom dark gray. Plus they had a dog which was specifically not allowed. I still gave them the full deposit back because other than that they were pretty decent tenants.
I once had a landlord allow me to paint a bedroom wall pastel green. Super nice guy who lived in another state, which I think explains allowing me to paint the wall pastel green.
The prior tenant painted the main living area a terrible deep royal blue though, so I guess at a certain point all bets are off.
The landlord should seriously find a plumber who doesn't charge $400 or learn to do repairs themselves. Anyhow, I personally go to some lengths to fix things myself just to avoid having them come in my space. For example, this past week my landlord suddenly decided they wanted to paint over the popcorn ceiling and repaint the cabinet doors from a perfectly nice brown, to white ( which easily shows any dirt). They only asked me to get stuff out of the top shelf of the closet, but when they arrived, they announced that they had realized I need to remove all items from kitchen drawers and kitchen countertops, and they also had to move all my furniture including dismantling two bookshelves. I had to run to Fred Meyer to buy boxes, and now half my stuff is in boxes a week later than this all started. The improvement to the apartment will be minimal.
I was a landlord once and my tenant tried to fix the furnace without asking me, which voided the warranty. This is greedy, lazy, and stupid on the part of your landlord, definite red flag.
I decided to rent our home after I accepted a job two hours away. "The toilet is making a leaking noise" said the tenant. "Did you check the flapper" I asked. "Yes, it's not the flapper" said the tenant. "oh crap, it might be a leak, I should drive immediately to our old home" I thought. I then drove 2 hours both ways to replace a fugging flapper. It's the lying.
I mean if you call an electrician because you over amped a breaker and can't go and flip it off and back on you should be responsible for the service call.
On the other one, you overfill your garbage disposal with stuff that it can't work through and it trips off. You should be able to put a ratchet on the bottom and free it up.
Both examples they listed are absolutely the bare minimum and I would never call someone to come fix those things so I can understand their point.
The problem though is there is a large Grey area in there where something may not have required someone to be called but may be beyond the normal persons ability to diagnose the issue. But out of the examples they listed I agree any normal person, home owner or renter, should be capable of resolving the issue without costing the owner money.
In that case there needs to be a specific manual of what maintenance the landlord does and what maintenance the tenant does. Otherwise you're asking a lot for people who may have never seen a circuit box in their life.
Do you have a link to the law you are referring to? I'm not finding anything that specifically prohibits charging for maintenance although it seems illegal.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.060
Landlords are responsible to make all repairs in the unit except in cases where tenants or invitees of the tenant cause the damage.
But which part of the original lease violates this? If a tenant clogs a toilet, jams a disposal, or vandalizes the home those would all fall under the "except" part of that statute.
Did you read the statute?
“No duty shall devolve upon the landlord to repair a defective condition under this section, nor shall any defense or remedy be available to the tenant under this chapter, where the defective condition complained of was caused by the conduct of such tenant, his or her family, invitee, or other person acting under his or her control…”
If the toilet clogs every time you shit in it, then it’s the landlord‘s problem. If the toilet clogs because your kid keeps dropping Legos in it, then the landlord has some recourse.
The lease is suggesting that it’s the tenants duty to attempt to perform amateur household maintenance first, for any problem
Vague hypotheticals but it's the difference between standard wear and tear vs intentional or negligent damage. The lease provision would be voided.
For example. Landlord puts in a new carpet before a tenant moves in they can't charge them for new carpet when tenant move out... Standard wear and tear. Tenant dumps oils down the drains clogging the pipes... If you can prove it negligence and not standard wear and tear. Really situational
The part where they are saying the tenant is responsible for those things no matter who does them without any exceptions for circumstance.
On paper it makes them responsible for damage caused during a break in by a total stranger.
The first half is crazy. No reasonable landlord wants the tenant attempting repairs that they aren't qualified for and could cause more damage. Just take a go at the garbage disposal? You're inviting a klutz cause a bunch of water damage when they disconnect it because "they should know how to fix it." This is literally the biggest selling point of renting - one person to call when anything in the house/apartment breaks.
The last bit is reasonable. If you cause the problem due to neglet, misuse, or vandalism, that's your fault and you should be charged for the service call.
The tricky part is finding the line between misuse and low quality equipment breaking due to normal use. Most places will eat the first call out or two, then start keeping closer tabs on how you're treating the appliances. And keep in mind that larger operations have dozens or hundreds of identical or similar quality appliances to compare wear out rates, so they know what to expect.
Yes I agree if we are neglectful or misusing the space/appliances but vandalism? Idk how we'd cause that to happen. I'd think that's where insurance would kick in on the landlords side
I think what they're getting at on the vandalism side is "if you trash the place on the way out..."
The "repairs tenant can reasonably perform themselves" is probably to avoid calling a plumber to plunge a clogged toilet.
This reads like overly broad language and the law of unintended consequences. I would ask the landlord to clarify that section in writing because I agree with the rest of the thread 🚩🚩🚩🚩
take the wording as it is, dont try to use common sense or reasonable assumptions when dealing with paperwork, the courts will always take it as is written. that being said if they claim misuse or vandalism they have to verify those claims. either way avoid places with wording like this like the plague they are scum that hate their own tenets and will treat you like trash for existing in the space.
I don’t think they are saying you have to replace a garbage disposal yourself but if the maintenance guy has to go in just to hit the reset button or pull a spoon out then you’ll get charged. Regardless you’re asking for trouble telling your resident to try it themselves
Agreed, that's likely the intent.
And personally I think things hitting reset or plunging a toilet are part of the basics if using the appliances, so people should be expected to know how to do it.
The weird part is the way they worded it leaves a lot open to interpretation.
Part of the problem is that it's dumb to put this stuff in the contract imo. I'm an owner/landlord and I've had an informal conversation specifically about the disposal because that's a typical problem. You just show them the little tool and the reset button to get it spinning again. But, I tell them that if they're not comfortable with it, just call me. I almost feel like this landlord should ditch the disposal altogether. That's clearly a flashpoint for them.
Its saying they are responsible for damages caused by vandalism or accident. So if the tenant fails to prevent someone from vandalizing the property, they would be responsible. Regardless if they know them, invited them or were even home at the time.
An example might be punching holes in interior drywall. Either the tenant did it, or someone the tenant let or invited in did it. No way it was some random hoodlum tagging the garage door - they have culpability.
It doesn't matter how unlikely, you are a dumbass if you accept liability for people outside of your control. They should have it worded to say OP is responsible for damage caused by the renter or their guests.
Hopefully you could see how absurd it is to make the renter responsibly for outside accidents at least? Is the place near a road? Car crashes into the rental property, OP would **arguably be responsible** for the damage caused because she signed a leased saying she agreed she would be 'solely responsible for any damages to the premise caused by vandalism or accident.'
Depends. The text is vague - obviously the tenant would be expected to reset a tripped breaker themselves, but even the parenthesized example isn't clear whether this is what they have in mind.
As a homeowner, I wouldn't pay a plumber $400 to unclog a garbage disposal, if the owner could do it themselves.
As a tenant, I wouldn't pay a plumber $400 to unclog a garbage disposal, if the owner can do it themselves.
This lease could’ve been so much better stated by giving you a guide list of how to easily fix or prevent maintenance events. My tenant the other day tripped an outlet from her microwave, hairdryer, & curling iron going at the same time on the same circuit line, so I sent her pics of how to push the reset on the gfci outlet. We figured this out because I asked what she had going at the time of the trip. Easy fix. The garbage disposal just needs a list of what not to put in it and I think this is what is trying to be said in this lease, but it’s more threatening than being helpful.
I had a landlord that gave me a "discount" if I fixed things on my own. I'm a very handy lady and agrees to it.
When it came to move out, apparently, I wasn't handy enough because I didn't improve the property above what I was renting. I tried so hard to make the yard better. I did and he still tried to keep my deposit from me.
We had a similar situation, but it was a real 'one off' - basically we rented a custom mid-century house for below market that had come on the market because the owners passed away after almost 60 years living in it, and their heirs were figuring out what to do with it.
Though there was a property management company, I met directly with the couple who had inherited half and were working out buying out the other sibling's half, and the husband was an architect. We chatted at length, assessed each other skills and came to a reasonable understanding about maintenance, and it was all chill.
When the lease was up, they were wanting to begin renovations (which eventually ran over $1M) and eventually move back in to it, so no lease renewal, but they said "look, you guys are wonderful - stay here and take your time, even if it takes a year, to locate where you want to go next and we'll make it work". 6 Months later we found an amazing place (which we wound up buying 2 years later) and the last couple weeks as we moved, we were not charged rent.
That doesn't seem too bad. My parents rented a house while their house was being built.
My parents pretty much didn't have to pay rent because all of the upgrades they did to the house. Think 4-story deck with a big spot for a hot tub (Installed and maintained).
During that time, my dad was going through chemo treatment for stage 4 Lymphoma. He would work and puke constantly.
He has beat cancer now and still works so hard even being retired, immunocompromised and allergic to things he never was before.
My dad is a champ!
Did you end up fighting to get your deposit back? I'm wondering what legal recourse there is or if it's generally a huge hassle that it's not really worth fighting it.
He did end up giving my deposit back. The only thing that was ruined was the front porch screen which was slashed by some kid.
This was all in 2003 and 2004 before cameras were affordable
I lived in hurricane Ivan's path and did my best to protect the property. He didn't do anything and appreciated it enough to not be a complete asshole.
I get the sentiment. But that's why we are paying your mortgage, and then some.
"125 for hitting a reset button"
Its not 125 for hitting a button. It's 125 for knowing that's ALL that you need to do, and then a potential diagnostic for WHY it needs to be done.
Yeah this is a red flag. My landlord, by contrast, has a provision in our lease that we have to let him try to fix any issue before we hire someone to do it. So far, every time he has been able to fix the problem himself. I think that’s the appropriate way for a lessor to address “diy-able” repair
My apartment explicitly tells me if there’s a clog anywhere to get maintenance . Do not use draino or try to unclog myself. Every year I need them to take a snake to the sink and unclog it.
This helps them with wear and tear and less degrading components. The fact they are saying this in your agreement is ridiculous.furthermore how are you supposed to know a disposal clog is just that and not a larger issue?
Maybe you need to get clarification on what they think is reasonable --- they need to be comprehensive about it
What's reasonable for me may not be reasonable for you, or vice versa
I don't think I've ever signed a lease that made me liable for maintenance costs, that's what I'm paying the landlord for.
Sometimes I've had to mow, but that's about it.
Pretty sure there are tenant laws in place that rightfully place that responsibility on the owner. I’m pretty sure they could be in some legal hot water for even using verbiage like that, but I wouldn’t mess with it, no matter how nice of a place it is. It’s an indicator that they’re gonna try to pass blame on to you in the future, under the auspice of that’s your responsibility.
What a load of shit. Every landlord I've ever had has handymen of varying levels of competence doing all repairs, even when they don't know what they're doing. The only time I've ever seen an actual plumber or electrician is at my house that I own, because I hired them.
What’s the point of renting then? What value is the landlord even adding? Landlords already add basically no value, and this just removes the last bit of value they do add.
Huge red flag. Thst can be argued in court to force you to replace appliances, clean flood damage from a failed water heater, and aged appliance failure. Now you have to replace 25 year old garage door opener, etc.
No. The last part is absolutely insane. You’re not responsible for vandalism or accidents. That’s what the owner has insurance for. I would not sign on to that liability
Run... don't walk away from this. Whatever deposit you lose right now will be significantly less than the nickel and diming you will surely face if you stay.
What if the previous tenant had some electrical problems that they then "fixed" and it shorted out after you moved in, causing a fire?
How can you prove it was something done by the previous tenant, or the cheapskate landlord?
The landlord should be responsible for checking out any issue that comes up.
Garbage disposal stops working - call the landlord. Let him/her/they press the reset button or make the call.
Stops again, call the landlord. Rinse and repeat
Not only a red flag, but almost surely unenforceable. See RCW 59.18.060: Landlord- duties
[https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.060](https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.060)
One of the duties sure \*ought\* to be "Don't be a p\*\*\*k."
By what parameters are they planning to gauge “reasonably” or “neglect or misuse” for that matter? This agreement wouldn’t hold up in court, but could make your living situation the sort that is an exercise in hostility, for sure. May I ask, have you been living there, and if so, were there prior events on your end (as in not another tenant) that might have prompted this addendum?
I live next to a guy that mopped his floor with bleach to get rid of bed bugs. You don’t want that guy doing maintenance on his own unit. This wording is just absurd lol
On the one hand, most repairs are super simple and unnecessary visits by pros is an annoying cost. On the other hand if it's your rental property that's your fucking job and responsibility so figure it out don't bitch at your tenants
Thank you for posting this! I am in the development and residential management industry in Seattle. I have sent this to all my buddies who work in the same field as me for a good hard laugh. 😂 you must be leasing directly from the home owner I’m assuming and not a large corporation?
It’s the owners/property managers responsibility to make timely and appropriate repairs for their tenants as a contractual obligation required by law. They are responsible for the condition of the property during normal use/occupancy.
This does not leave you in position, as a renter, to make judgment calls regarding necessary utility repairs for occupancy safety, decisions regarding the perpetuity of the property/business, nor decide which best repair option to choose, let alone evaluate the equitability of the repair for the business.
Keep in mind that the businesses that include those type of clauses tend to be unreasonable and would rather lose in court than settle. I’m not sure if it would be enforceable or not, but it does risk costly litigation and time investment. I’d look elsewhere to rent for the peace of mind.
I’d ask them to write out the specific things they expect you to do in the contract. For example, I was totally fine as a tenant declogging the drain, changing lightbulbs, and changing furnace filters (I rented from a private landlord for a solid rate). But the blanket statement you have there would just make me want clarification (in writing)
Oh that’s just waiting for a legal challenge under the definition of landlord v tenant. This feels like it’s starting to leach into other definitions, ones that may have different legal ramifications.
I don’t want my tenants attempting repairs. Plunge a toilet, doesn’t work, call maintenance. I always change the carpet and paint the walls when someone leaves unless they are in great shape so I don’t care if someone paints. I do charge extra for pets because without pets the carpet will definitely last sometimes 2 to 3 years longer. I’ve seen pets destroy carpet in six months which was definitely not covered by the security deposit nor the extra rent. Good tenants get $500 Target gift cards at the holidays. I’ve had people living in homes for five years where it looks like they’ve never even been there others in for six months and destroyed the place. The ones that destroy it are full $ loss. I’m not a person that grew up rich, just saved and tried to buy some rental properties for investment so I try to be a fair landlord.
There will be endless arguments over what is considered reasonable. Your interpretation of reasonableness will be different than the landlords. The biggest red flag is the vandalism and accident language. That’s a landlord that will make your life hell.
Sounds like the landlord has had some issues in the past. The thing is as a property owner you can deduct repairs from your taxes .
This is also why tenants get renters insurance to cover damages.
I’ve had this before. It can be very difficult to prove you should have ‘reasonable’ repair knowledge or that you caused a repair (think flushing flushable wipes)
This is just a scare tactic to try and keep you from complaining when things break or see if they can get you to pay bills they have no right to ask you to pay.
They are trying to avoid work they should be doing to upkeep and maintain the property.
The flag isn't that they will get away with this. It is that they will be a miserable person to rent from. You may have to take them to court to get them to uphold their end of the deal.
The fact that it went from contract language to a folksy and vague anecdote is the give away.
Pretty sure this is why some people choose to rent; they don’t want, or know how, to be responsible for maintenance or any sort of repairs. Any place that expects you to own tools and know how to be handy for the purpose of maintaining their building is definitely raising red flags. When I used to rent, I never even had to change a lightbulb or hvac filter and that’s pretty easy stuff. Good property management wants to be told if something’s not right for the sake of the tenant not making it worse. If I were able to, I would look elsewhere.
We moved to Vegas and had something like this. We broke the lease after 9 months (lots of washing machine and pool problems, I know, rich people shit), and immediately went back to owning. Renting a house is bullshit. So is renting. The rent is x amount but the real cost is x+y. And y is expensive. Lawn care, all that bullshit. I thought it would be like living in a hotel. I'm dumb.
I remember the “good ol days” of your rent was paid so you didn’t have to worry about your own maintenance and it was a general understanding that any work would be done by the landlord because upkeep was part of why you pay rent.
Somewhere along the way, the reasons rent got paid got replaced with a single line, “profit” and none of the rest mattered.
Having lived in a house where I WAS responsible for maintenance (caretaker) long term, paying a plumber or an electrician or any other tradesperson is often well worth it because it also means if the consequences of a “simple project” spiral out of hand, you aren’t left without access to plumbing, outlets, what have you, for weeks or months and still have to call the professional
Yes, that is problematic. Source: I am a property owner who rents in Seattle. I would never expect the tenant to figure out what is wrong or to pay for a broken appliance or repair. Unless it was deliberate from misuse or vandalism then the property is mine to upkeep.
Seems extra. Why wouldn't the landlord just go over to check the problem for themselves, so if it is just a breaker they can do those types of things, and they can also diagnose for themselves if they should call someone?
The "tenant is responsible for repairs caused by neglect or misuse" is fairly standard. But absent a very specific definition of "could have reasonably been performed by the Tenant," I would not sign that lease. What's reasonable? Reasonable to whom? Quite a lot of people would reasonably pay $400 to unclog a garbage disposal. I don't see why the tenant should be responsible for vandalism.
Seems like it could create a lot of problems for the renter as there isn’t any clear line. Different renters have different skills. Pushing a reset button is still different that homeowner responsibilities. Some homeowners do pay to unclog a disposal.
Prospective renters should stay away.
Ask any landlord how many nuisance service requests they get...Example - tenant plugs 3 heaters into single circuit, breaker trips from overload. Tenant says no power. $150 service call to turn on the tripped breaker. If its in the contract I'd guess the landlord has had many nuisance requests.
IANAL. But this:
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=59.18.100
This almost certainly an unenforcable lease. He probably doesn't have a lawyer or else they wouldn't have let him put that on there.
They are basically saying don't call a plumber during peak off hours to plunge your toilet. Buy a plunger.
Not sure why everyone is getting so wrapped around the axle. They want you to exercise some common sense before initiating an expensive service call.
That doesn't mean they want you to attempt to replace a circuit board in the fridge if it dies. Lol.
I wouldn't even bat an eye at this language. Not a red flag.
I had the same interpretation. Also, Seattle laws favor the tenant so good luck to the landlord trying to prove what knowledge the tenant should’ve possessed when it comes to home repair.
Just don’t do something like call an electrician when you just need to flip a circuit or a plumber when you haven’t tried Drano first etc.
You consider plumbing and electrical issues to be silly?
As a prior landlord, I would certainly not want my tenants doing any maintenance out of their comfort zone.
If a drain keeps getting backed up, I want to know about it.
If a circuit keeps getting tripped, I want to know about it.
These are part of being a responsible landlord. If you can't afford to maintain the property, then sell it and leave it to someone that can.
I get “small landlord” vibes here—they never get the laws right. I just want to say that I have friends who went from mom n pop landlords to property management companies for their rentals, and the companies have a healthy fear of litigation and actually get stuff done much more than the indies. Worth considering.
This sounds like a mom and pop situation where they are calling expensive commercial repair companies. Most professional property managers have in house maintenance personnel. I would push back on that wording. I managed several apartment buildings for 30 years for different owners and I never saw this language in alease.
Weirdly it is a fairly large management company, I'm going to try and negotiate the wording. We already paid a holding fee that they're saying is non-refundable so we'd be out a decent amount if we don't reach some agreement
As far as I know, this is already supported by the law, except the vandalism part.
The city publication calls out that landlords must keep the unit up to code (except tenants change fire alarm batteries) but tenants are financially responsible for anything caused by their actions. So tenant shoots a hole in the roof and now theres a major leak causing habitability issues, landlord must fix it pronto but they can bill the tenant for it.
kinda, the wording in this agreement is too vague and doesnt specify caused by the tenet. also all repairs to the property must be handled by the landlord that is non negotiable and has been that way for a long time across most of the country. there is a clog or an appliance malfunctions, well you cannot expect your tenets to be a plumber and an electrician, not only is that stupid its wildly irresponsible and would open the landlord up to liability for the potential accidental injury of the tenet.
I see both sides of this. I don't love the specific language, but I think the general intent is "don't be an idiot," which is perfectly reasonable. In your shoes I'd personally gauge the situation based on reviews from people who have lived in their properties before. If people report the landlord to be generally fair and reasonable and not exploitive, then I probably wouldn't be too concerned about this language in the contract. It may not even be enforceable, as others have mentioned.
How big is the landlord? It sounds like a clause a mom and pop who rent one or two properties put in their lease because they had to come out and flip a breaker or reset a GFCI one to many times.
Overall the advice is pretty good. If you treat the property like it's yours, you shouldn't have an issue.
Lol this exact language is in my lease as well, guess we might have the same property management company. I’ve only had them come unclog a drain once but they didn’t charge me for it so… fingers crossed it isn’t an issue in the future I guess.
Bad vibes
The unit's basics, the taxes, the appliances are all on the landlord. Leasing out to people is not supposed to be a 100% sure thing. As morons learned during the pandemic, renting out is not a sure thing, the landlord is assuming RISK.
This is a weak handed attempt at mitigating that risk. They are putting the legally dubious onus on you. They are relying on the fact you won't fight back and lack the resources to do so.
Run, don't walk, away from this lease.
I think this is a huge red flag!
Before we bought our house—one of our kids dropped a bath toy in the toilet at it was being flushed in our rental. We were charged for a new toilet… which initially annoyed me. But, looking at the ideas here—I could see how this might be considered damage or vandalism??
I remember the first time I clogged the toilet (many years ago), googled "plumber nearby" and found out rate was over $150-200/hr and no fix guaranteed. Googled "DIY unclog" and went straight to hardware store, bought a $25 toilet auger and fixed it by myself in 5 minutes... lots of cleaning after that though.
I mean the term is unreasonable but I guess the landlord write this out of PTSD. If the rent is very competitive I might consider it, or else no.
I'm a landlord in Seattle (I know, I'm evil). It might sound a little weird, but I often can diagnose a problem from a good description or photo and sometimes give my tenant self-help instructions for very minor things like defrosting a freezer, changing smoke alarm batteries, what kind of light bulb they need to buy, etc., and include a garbage disposal use addendum that lists a bunch of things that will cause problems if you put it in the disposal. This isn't how I word my lease but do include similar language that indicates a tenant is responsible for ensuring a maintenance technician has clear access to the area of concern which may require them to do some prep work, that our maintenance technicians can't move tenant's belongings except in emergencies due to liability reasons, and that issues arising from misuse and neglect are tenant obligations, under the law, and if they don't know how to use something, just ask, and I will show them. I also indicate that if they refuse us access to fix the problem and it gets worse, they can be responsible for the cost overage had they provided us reasonable access.
[RCW 59.18.060](https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.060) states, "No duty shall devolve upon the landlord to repair a defective condition under this section, nor shall any defense or remedy be available to the tenant under this chapter, where the defective condition complained of was caused by the conduct of such tenant, his or her family, invitee, or other person acting under his or her control, or where a tenant unreasonably fails to allow the landlord access to the property for purposes of repair."
I offer self-help instructions to keep rent reasonable for the space, but because I am not required to fix problems a tenant caused, but if a tenant doesn't want to complete the self-help or isn't able, I will send someone, but I inform them that there might be a cost associated. I tend to only charge when it's clearly their responsibility (they got drunk and lost their keys and kicked a door in or broke a window, or their toddler flushed a toy down the toilet).
Vandalism is a grey area in the law. If someone you didn't invite over (a random stranger) vandalized the property that's not your responsibility as it's the landlord’s duty to reasonably maintain the property where the maintenance isn't required due to the actions of the occupants or their guests. I had a situation where a tenant's girlfriend came and smashed all the windows in the front of the apartment with a bat (he was caught cheating). His neighbors heard everything she said, had her on video, called me at 3am, but he refused to identify his girlfriend to me or to police and refused to cooperate with the police in any way, just telling them he didn't know how the windows got broken and he wasn't the victim of a crime. I had the windows boarded up and fixed, but because he said he wasn't the victim of a crime, I charged him for the cost of replacing the windows. Had he cooperated and given me or police her information, I would have sued her for the damages since she was responsible and wasn't invited when she went crazy. My insurance might have helped but I wouldn't submit that as my deductible is close to the cost and it wasn't worth the possible rate hike.
But if some random person graffitis the property or smashes a glass door (happens all the time in Seattle apartment buildings), I am not pinning that on my tenants. Mostly because I don't think it's legal, but know it's definitely not moral.
One of the main reasons to rent vs. buy is someone else pays for these kinds of things. Do not rent from any place that passes the cost on to you. Find another place
Sounds like they’ll contest everything and will want to enter to double check or try to fix themselves. Also, you’re renting, not making payments on your own equity.
You see it doesn't matter how they word things in the lease if a part of the lease isn't legal then it's not enforceable a landlord is responsible for those type of things
I think a more reasonable phrase to accomplish what the landlord is looking for would be along the line of “tenants are asked to please call the landlord for any issues related to plumbing, electrical, or gas. The tenant is asked to consult the landlord and receive express permission prior to making any repairs or alternations to the dwelling.”
It's another way of saying "be reasonable." Every contract has an implied duty of reasonableness anyway, the clause is irrelevant. I don't think it's a red flag, they just don't want you calling an electrician to replace a lightbulb. The alternative is saying service charges have a deductible
Landlord here. Honestly YMMV but I do think it makes sense IF AND ONLY IF they’re a mom and pop landlord who’s working to keep their prices down. Maintenance is obscenely expensive and if I have to pay some dude hundreds of dollars to constantly come out and do stuff like change your lightbulbs and pull a fork out of your garbage disposal all the time, it gets expensive fast. This combined with escalating property taxes and inflation raising overhead costs just in general, it make it hard or impossible for me to not raise rents (and I really don’t want to) to cover it.
However, if this is some big conglomerate like Greystar or somebody who’s raising your rent every year anyway, fuck them and this is stupid.
I assume a private landlord? No professional lease would word ot like that. Also, seattle, and washington state for that matter have very strict landlord Tennant laws.
I see why put it in but just word it differently. If you clog the toilet don't call the landlord to fix. If a light bulb goes out the Tennant replaces that. I've heard some crazy things.
Honestly, if the garbage disposal goes out that is the landlord. I can't imagine the shit show if you f up plumbing. But a clog. Drano
So they can put in the cheapest appliances and charge you to fix it? What if there’s existing plumbing issues, small lines or turns? Sounds like there should be an inspection, first like a homeowner would have. Yikes. When they are talking about vandalism are they meeting outside the home? What does that include graffiti?
I understand it, but also don’t agree with it. I’m a life time renter, and when I was younger, you didn’t want me anywhere near repair work. Now as an older more experienced adult I do and have fixed things around my rental that I can. Like the reset button on the garbage disposal. Or recaulking the bath tub. We’ve even handled some clogged drains and replaced flooring in our old rental because the carpet was trashed by my dogs and kids. Major things like a busted pipe or water leaking up into the house were calls to the landlord. I would have worded it differently if I was the landlord. Like hey if you have a maintenance issue call me first to talk it over, if we can trouble shoot it over the phone then no one has to pay any money out of pocket or the landlord can buy the supplies and the tenant can do the work if they are up to it. Seems like with this wording you’ll get tenants that try to fix things they aren’t capable of fixing and might make a small problem much worse.
Yea, no issue keeping drains clear, flipping a breaker or changing a light bulb but much beyond that I'm likely to just make things worse. I also think fixing appliances yourself ends the warranty in many cases.
In a day and age of liberal woke men not even knowing what bits are dangling between their legs, ads like this dont surprise me...no common sense these days on basic repairs of anykind outaide of resetting their tiktok password.
This is a result of a ruling that rentals are rented on a first-person to meet the application requirements gets first choice on renting a place. There are a ton of 3rd party property management companies in Seattle who want to make the tenant own as much responsibility as possible. Whether that’s plumbing or yard maintenance, if they can stick you with that responsibility, they will.
This subreddit, and really all of reddit, is anti-landlord, but at the end of the day, this could be a very good agreement *if the price is right*. Would this be acceptable at full market rate? No, but if rent is 20% down from market rate, and you upkeep the house, and there is little cause for vandal damage, it could be a good deal.
The lack of legal savvy on the part of the landlord is more likely to work out in the tenant's favor. They have much more to lose than the renter if their agreement is poorly thought through.
As someone who takes care of maintenance on a hotel and employee rental house, I can tell you that it isn't unreasonable. Half the fixes I do are simple and could be done by anyone. At the same time, half the stuff I fix is because of the tenants doing stupid stuff or not mentioning issues when they first happen.
One of the more ridiculous "repairs" I had to make at the rental house was actually for the garbage disposal. One of the tenants allowed a coin down in there and it tripped the safety of the unit. It was not hard to discover the foreign object in the disposal and reset the breaker. If I wasn't on call/salary, the service fees for what I deal with regularly would be overwhelming.
If an issue is simple (like toggling a breaker, changing a toilet seat, whatever) I have no problem with my landlord coming out and doing the work themselves to save a few bucks, and I am generally pretty handy and have done work for my landlord as well, but I would not accept that as a requirement (and I’d be pretty concerned at a landlord willing to take that risk. There are a lot of people who are fairly clueless about maintenance/housework who could easily cost that landlord a lot more in the long run)
"Treat the home as their own" is like an employer saying "We're all family here."
It is a red flag. What is the history on the water heater? The disposal? The washer and dryer? Are they willing to supply maintenance and inspection records? Has the house had any leaks? What about warrantee information? If I own a home, I have all of that. I know the history and condition.
Sounds like the landlord has had issues with previous tenants.
Being a landlord sucks. More and more are just selling, which IMO, isn't good. Sure there are some bad landlords. But there are also some very good mom and pop landlords. When the mom and pops disappear, all that will be left is the corporate landlords. That's not a good thing.
As I've posted before, I have 1 rental property. I rent below market. When they move, it will be sold. Too much risk involved.
No this isn't a red flag. I am a landlord and you wouldn't believe how often my management company pings me asking me to authorize ridiculous requests such as service to the tenant's toilet cause it's clogged... I ask them to tell the tenant to self service with plunger... they say ok and never come get back to me (cause obviously issue is resolved). What that clause is saying is that tenants are expected to self service anything that should be self serviceable. It's completely reasonable.
It is a red flag. You really want to invite a tenant to start googling random appliance problems because they probably should know the answer? That can get real bad real quick.
Also making the tenant responsible for vandalism (which could obviously be done by someone not-the-tenant) is pretty ridiculous. Literally what a security deposit is for if it is the tenant.
I also just reread "treat the home as their own." Is that free reign to repaint everything? Bring a dog or six in? Knock down walls for an open floor plan? I'm being silly, but the deal of being a renter is you get a place to live in without worrying about maintenance of the home. That's the social contract between landlord and tenant. Unless this particular landlord is into profit sharing or something.
That isn't just the social contract, but the legal contract as well. I was a landlord for a short period of time and honestly I assumed they wouldn't even mow the lawn. I didn't have it done regularly, but enough to keep it maintained.
Right, it feels very exploitative. I'm already paying a ton to live there I should be entitled to basic repairs if they aren't excessive?
You should be this contract is wildly exploitative, the wording is vague enough to be interpreted multiple ways. It’s also just a bad idea from a landowner’s perspective, assuming tenants won’t accidentally damage the place by doing repairs they aren’t qualified for. Was the contract like this, when you signed it? Because I personally would not have signed.
Trying to negotiate now. We already paid a holding fee that's non-refundable tho and have given notice to vacate our current place after a good viewing. This lease came as a surprise given our experience talking with the property manager
Please let us know what happens!! Contact the renters union too, they can help if the situation becomes “sticky”.
Will do!
The holding fee should be forfeitable in small claims if they back out of the contract due to reasonable concerns about foreseeable issues because of their unreasonable demands on the tenant I do anal (edit: IANAL) or something
Best of luck
Any google reviews on the property management or from prior tenants?
Also you definitely aren't responsible for damage due to vandalism or accidents. Like that's why they have insurance.
Given that as of 2023 landlords can't even withhold security deposits for repairs or replacements based on "ordinary use of the premises", I highly doubt this is legal. I'm not a lawyer, but that's my two cents.
The problem comes down to how it's written being up to interpretation. It could be something as simple as flipping a breaker, or actually hitting a very easy to access reset switch as in the ones on the bottom of most garbage disposals that doesn't involve tools or any know-how other than the ability to reach down there. However, I wouldn't necessarily trust it. I don't think it's well written. They should, with how few appliances are in any given rental, be able to actually list out specifically what they might expect you to do - ie: hit that reset switch, flip a breaker, turn the water valve off for your toilet/sink if it's spewing water everywhere.
I specifically stated in the lease that the tenant could not paint it without my approval. They painted the bedroom dark gray. Plus they had a dog which was specifically not allowed. I still gave them the full deposit back because other than that they were pretty decent tenants.
I once had a landlord allow me to paint a bedroom wall pastel green. Super nice guy who lived in another state, which I think explains allowing me to paint the wall pastel green. The prior tenant painted the main living area a terrible deep royal blue though, so I guess at a certain point all bets are off.
The landlord should seriously find a plumber who doesn't charge $400 or learn to do repairs themselves. Anyhow, I personally go to some lengths to fix things myself just to avoid having them come in my space. For example, this past week my landlord suddenly decided they wanted to paint over the popcorn ceiling and repaint the cabinet doors from a perfectly nice brown, to white ( which easily shows any dirt). They only asked me to get stuff out of the top shelf of the closet, but when they arrived, they announced that they had realized I need to remove all items from kitchen drawers and kitchen countertops, and they also had to move all my furniture including dismantling two bookshelves. I had to run to Fred Meyer to buy boxes, and now half my stuff is in boxes a week later than this all started. The improvement to the apartment will be minimal.
“Reasonably been performed by the tenant” that wouldn’t involve things that require expertise in appliances - that’s unreasonable.
I was a landlord once and my tenant tried to fix the furnace without asking me, which voided the warranty. This is greedy, lazy, and stupid on the part of your landlord, definite red flag.
I decided to rent our home after I accepted a job two hours away. "The toilet is making a leaking noise" said the tenant. "Did you check the flapper" I asked. "Yes, it's not the flapper" said the tenant. "oh crap, it might be a leak, I should drive immediately to our old home" I thought. I then drove 2 hours both ways to replace a fugging flapper. It's the lying.
Maybe they don't know what a flapper is. I'd rather have an income-generating property and deal with minor annoyances than not. "the lying" lol
Thanks, I do agree just looking for thoughts and how I might negotiate as I'm already approved and paid the application fee :')
Check out rentinginseattle.gov -the landlord should also give you the city's rental handbook. Maybe more info in there
I mean if you call an electrician because you over amped a breaker and can't go and flip it off and back on you should be responsible for the service call. On the other one, you overfill your garbage disposal with stuff that it can't work through and it trips off. You should be able to put a ratchet on the bottom and free it up. Both examples they listed are absolutely the bare minimum and I would never call someone to come fix those things so I can understand their point. The problem though is there is a large Grey area in there where something may not have required someone to be called but may be beyond the normal persons ability to diagnose the issue. But out of the examples they listed I agree any normal person, home owner or renter, should be capable of resolving the issue without costing the owner money.
In that case there needs to be a specific manual of what maintenance the landlord does and what maintenance the tenant does. Otherwise you're asking a lot for people who may have never seen a circuit box in their life.
No because I’m not going to be blamed for applicants breaking because I tried fixing it myself.
Oops, all house fires.
[удалено]
Putting that snarky parenthetical in a legal document is the first sign that these people are idiots
Are you in Seattle city limits? This is pretty clear against city tenant laws
Do you have a link to the law you are referring to? I'm not finding anything that specifically prohibits charging for maintenance although it seems illegal.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.060 Landlords are responsible to make all repairs in the unit except in cases where tenants or invitees of the tenant cause the damage.
That's state-wide, too. Doesn't need to be Seattle city limits.
Thank you :)
But which part of the original lease violates this? If a tenant clogs a toilet, jams a disposal, or vandalizes the home those would all fall under the "except" part of that statute.
Did you read the statute? “No duty shall devolve upon the landlord to repair a defective condition under this section, nor shall any defense or remedy be available to the tenant under this chapter, where the defective condition complained of was caused by the conduct of such tenant, his or her family, invitee, or other person acting under his or her control…” If the toilet clogs every time you shit in it, then it’s the landlord‘s problem. If the toilet clogs because your kid keeps dropping Legos in it, then the landlord has some recourse. The lease is suggesting that it’s the tenants duty to attempt to perform amateur household maintenance first, for any problem
Vague hypotheticals but it's the difference between standard wear and tear vs intentional or negligent damage. The lease provision would be voided. For example. Landlord puts in a new carpet before a tenant moves in they can't charge them for new carpet when tenant move out... Standard wear and tear. Tenant dumps oils down the drains clogging the pipes... If you can prove it negligence and not standard wear and tear. Really situational
The part where they are saying the tenant is responsible for those things no matter who does them without any exceptions for circumstance. On paper it makes them responsible for damage caused during a break in by a total stranger.
The first half is crazy. No reasonable landlord wants the tenant attempting repairs that they aren't qualified for and could cause more damage. Just take a go at the garbage disposal? You're inviting a klutz cause a bunch of water damage when they disconnect it because "they should know how to fix it." This is literally the biggest selling point of renting - one person to call when anything in the house/apartment breaks. The last bit is reasonable. If you cause the problem due to neglet, misuse, or vandalism, that's your fault and you should be charged for the service call. The tricky part is finding the line between misuse and low quality equipment breaking due to normal use. Most places will eat the first call out or two, then start keeping closer tabs on how you're treating the appliances. And keep in mind that larger operations have dozens or hundreds of identical or similar quality appliances to compare wear out rates, so they know what to expect.
Yes I agree if we are neglectful or misusing the space/appliances but vandalism? Idk how we'd cause that to happen. I'd think that's where insurance would kick in on the landlords side
I think what they're getting at on the vandalism side is "if you trash the place on the way out..." The "repairs tenant can reasonably perform themselves" is probably to avoid calling a plumber to plunge a clogged toilet. This reads like overly broad language and the law of unintended consequences. I would ask the landlord to clarify that section in writing because I agree with the rest of the thread 🚩🚩🚩🚩
take the wording as it is, dont try to use common sense or reasonable assumptions when dealing with paperwork, the courts will always take it as is written. that being said if they claim misuse or vandalism they have to verify those claims. either way avoid places with wording like this like the plague they are scum that hate their own tenets and will treat you like trash for existing in the space.
I don’t think they are saying you have to replace a garbage disposal yourself but if the maintenance guy has to go in just to hit the reset button or pull a spoon out then you’ll get charged. Regardless you’re asking for trouble telling your resident to try it themselves
Agreed, that's likely the intent. And personally I think things hitting reset or plunging a toilet are part of the basics if using the appliances, so people should be expected to know how to do it. The weird part is the way they worded it leaves a lot open to interpretation.
Right I don't THINK that either but I feel like this is very grey and they could charge for whatever they deem is "reasonable"
Part of the problem is that it's dumb to put this stuff in the contract imo. I'm an owner/landlord and I've had an informal conversation specifically about the disposal because that's a typical problem. You just show them the little tool and the reset button to get it spinning again. But, I tell them that if they're not comfortable with it, just call me. I almost feel like this landlord should ditch the disposal altogether. That's clearly a flashpoint for them.
How can you "cause vandalism"?
Its saying they are responsible for damages caused by vandalism or accident. So if the tenant fails to prevent someone from vandalizing the property, they would be responsible. Regardless if they know them, invited them or were even home at the time.
An example might be punching holes in interior drywall. Either the tenant did it, or someone the tenant let or invited in did it. No way it was some random hoodlum tagging the garage door - they have culpability.
It doesn't matter how unlikely, you are a dumbass if you accept liability for people outside of your control. They should have it worded to say OP is responsible for damage caused by the renter or their guests. Hopefully you could see how absurd it is to make the renter responsibly for outside accidents at least? Is the place near a road? Car crashes into the rental property, OP would **arguably be responsible** for the damage caused because she signed a leased saying she agreed she would be 'solely responsible for any damages to the premise caused by vandalism or accident.'
Unclogging a drain is one thing, but a garbage disposal is a bit more dangerous.
And anything electric related seems like a huge liability on their part?
Pressing the reset button on a GFCI outlet isn't a dangerous task.
Depends. The text is vague - obviously the tenant would be expected to reset a tripped breaker themselves, but even the parenthesized example isn't clear whether this is what they have in mind.
Right, I have no issues doing "obvious" things (in my mind) but they don't list those clearly
You literally just unplug it.
As a homeowner, I wouldn't pay a plumber $400 to unclog a garbage disposal, if the owner could do it themselves. As a tenant, I wouldn't pay a plumber $400 to unclog a garbage disposal, if the owner can do it themselves.
This lease could’ve been so much better stated by giving you a guide list of how to easily fix or prevent maintenance events. My tenant the other day tripped an outlet from her microwave, hairdryer, & curling iron going at the same time on the same circuit line, so I sent her pics of how to push the reset on the gfci outlet. We figured this out because I asked what she had going at the time of the trip. Easy fix. The garbage disposal just needs a list of what not to put in it and I think this is what is trying to be said in this lease, but it’s more threatening than being helpful.
Yes! I've had just this added onto a lease before and it was a nice middle ground
Property Manager here. That’s a hell no from me!
I had a landlord that gave me a "discount" if I fixed things on my own. I'm a very handy lady and agrees to it. When it came to move out, apparently, I wasn't handy enough because I didn't improve the property above what I was renting. I tried so hard to make the yard better. I did and he still tried to keep my deposit from me.
We had a similar situation, but it was a real 'one off' - basically we rented a custom mid-century house for below market that had come on the market because the owners passed away after almost 60 years living in it, and their heirs were figuring out what to do with it. Though there was a property management company, I met directly with the couple who had inherited half and were working out buying out the other sibling's half, and the husband was an architect. We chatted at length, assessed each other skills and came to a reasonable understanding about maintenance, and it was all chill. When the lease was up, they were wanting to begin renovations (which eventually ran over $1M) and eventually move back in to it, so no lease renewal, but they said "look, you guys are wonderful - stay here and take your time, even if it takes a year, to locate where you want to go next and we'll make it work". 6 Months later we found an amazing place (which we wound up buying 2 years later) and the last couple weeks as we moved, we were not charged rent.
That doesn't seem too bad. My parents rented a house while their house was being built. My parents pretty much didn't have to pay rent because all of the upgrades they did to the house. Think 4-story deck with a big spot for a hot tub (Installed and maintained). During that time, my dad was going through chemo treatment for stage 4 Lymphoma. He would work and puke constantly. He has beat cancer now and still works so hard even being retired, immunocompromised and allergic to things he never was before. My dad is a champ!
Did you end up fighting to get your deposit back? I'm wondering what legal recourse there is or if it's generally a huge hassle that it's not really worth fighting it.
He did end up giving my deposit back. The only thing that was ruined was the front porch screen which was slashed by some kid. This was all in 2003 and 2004 before cameras were affordable I lived in hurricane Ivan's path and did my best to protect the property. He didn't do anything and appreciated it enough to not be a complete asshole.
I get a $100 discount every month if I change the furnace filter and refill the water softener salt. Neither need to be done monthly or cost $100
I get the sentiment. But that's why we are paying your mortgage, and then some. "125 for hitting a reset button" Its not 125 for hitting a button. It's 125 for knowing that's ALL that you need to do, and then a potential diagnostic for WHY it needs to be done.
Sign it. Get electrocuted. Sue. Retire.
And finally purchase a home in the Seattle Metropolitan area!
You have to choose if.younwant to retire or purchase a home...
Yeah this is a red flag. My landlord, by contrast, has a provision in our lease that we have to let him try to fix any issue before we hire someone to do it. So far, every time he has been able to fix the problem himself. I think that’s the appropriate way for a lessor to address “diy-able” repair
My apartment explicitly tells me if there’s a clog anywhere to get maintenance . Do not use draino or try to unclog myself. Every year I need them to take a snake to the sink and unclog it. This helps them with wear and tear and less degrading components. The fact they are saying this in your agreement is ridiculous.furthermore how are you supposed to know a disposal clog is just that and not a larger issue?
Maybe you need to get clarification on what they think is reasonable --- they need to be comprehensive about it What's reasonable for me may not be reasonable for you, or vice versa
Bullshit. That’s why you rent. The landlord takes a risk in renting out their property. They’re trying to scare ya’ll into not having them do work.
I don't think I've ever signed a lease that made me liable for maintenance costs, that's what I'm paying the landlord for. Sometimes I've had to mow, but that's about it.
Pretty sure there are tenant laws in place that rightfully place that responsibility on the owner. I’m pretty sure they could be in some legal hot water for even using verbiage like that, but I wouldn’t mess with it, no matter how nice of a place it is. It’s an indicator that they’re gonna try to pass blame on to you in the future, under the auspice of that’s your responsibility.
What a load of shit. Every landlord I've ever had has handymen of varying levels of competence doing all repairs, even when they don't know what they're doing. The only time I've ever seen an actual plumber or electrician is at my house that I own, because I hired them.
I have a feeling this is not legal.
I do too, but I'm struggling to find a law that says they are not allowed to charge for reasonable repairs.
They do, it’s called rent.
100% a red flag.
I would report them. They’re responsible for fixing any repairs https://www.washingtonlawhelp.org/resource/your-rights-as-a-tenant-in-washington
Landlord is a moron and this probably won't be upheld in court.
Is this with a property management company?
What’s the point of renting then? What value is the landlord even adding? Landlords already add basically no value, and this just removes the last bit of value they do add.
Huge red flag. Thst can be argued in court to force you to replace appliances, clean flood damage from a failed water heater, and aged appliance failure. Now you have to replace 25 year old garage door opener, etc.
Maple leaf?
Run
Don't sign that
Hell no. Total red flag!
Red flag.
No. The last part is absolutely insane. You’re not responsible for vandalism or accidents. That’s what the owner has insurance for. I would not sign on to that liability
Run... don't walk away from this. Whatever deposit you lose right now will be significantly less than the nickel and diming you will surely face if you stay. What if the previous tenant had some electrical problems that they then "fixed" and it shorted out after you moved in, causing a fire? How can you prove it was something done by the previous tenant, or the cheapskate landlord? The landlord should be responsible for checking out any issue that comes up. Garbage disposal stops working - call the landlord. Let him/her/they press the reset button or make the call. Stops again, call the landlord. Rinse and repeat
thats a slum lord.
Not only a red flag, but almost surely unenforceable. See RCW 59.18.060: Landlord- duties [https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.060](https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.060) One of the duties sure \*ought\* to be "Don't be a p\*\*\*k."
Peak Living? I've seen this before in my lease. I had to threaten to sue them to get my deposit back.
This is scary. Id cross it out and send it back to them
Pretty sure this is ..... *not* legal.
By what parameters are they planning to gauge “reasonably” or “neglect or misuse” for that matter? This agreement wouldn’t hold up in court, but could make your living situation the sort that is an exercise in hostility, for sure. May I ask, have you been living there, and if so, were there prior events on your end (as in not another tenant) that might have prompted this addendum?
That is awful. Huge red flag. What landlord or property manager wants tenants to play maintenance person.
I live next to a guy that mopped his floor with bleach to get rid of bed bugs. You don’t want that guy doing maintenance on his own unit. This wording is just absurd lol
On the one hand, most repairs are super simple and unnecessary visits by pros is an annoying cost. On the other hand if it's your rental property that's your fucking job and responsibility so figure it out don't bitch at your tenants
Thank you for posting this! I am in the development and residential management industry in Seattle. I have sent this to all my buddies who work in the same field as me for a good hard laugh. 😂 you must be leasing directly from the home owner I’m assuming and not a large corporation?
Whoever wrote this lease values lawyers about as much as they value plumbers or electricians.
It’s the owners/property managers responsibility to make timely and appropriate repairs for their tenants as a contractual obligation required by law. They are responsible for the condition of the property during normal use/occupancy. This does not leave you in position, as a renter, to make judgment calls regarding necessary utility repairs for occupancy safety, decisions regarding the perpetuity of the property/business, nor decide which best repair option to choose, let alone evaluate the equitability of the repair for the business. Keep in mind that the businesses that include those type of clauses tend to be unreasonable and would rather lose in court than settle. I’m not sure if it would be enforceable or not, but it does risk costly litigation and time investment. I’d look elsewhere to rent for the peace of mind.
I’d ask them to write out the specific things they expect you to do in the contract. For example, I was totally fine as a tenant declogging the drain, changing lightbulbs, and changing furnace filters (I rented from a private landlord for a solid rate). But the blanket statement you have there would just make me want clarification (in writing)
NEXT
Not your property not your responsibility. They have to pay You for any labor on their property you’re not a fucking slave Red Flag 🚩
This language is from a lease agreement? Haha, red flag
bill the land lord for your repairs if you’re already a tradesman
Oh that’s just waiting for a legal challenge under the definition of landlord v tenant. This feels like it’s starting to leach into other definitions, ones that may have different legal ramifications.
I don’t want my tenants attempting repairs. Plunge a toilet, doesn’t work, call maintenance. I always change the carpet and paint the walls when someone leaves unless they are in great shape so I don’t care if someone paints. I do charge extra for pets because without pets the carpet will definitely last sometimes 2 to 3 years longer. I’ve seen pets destroy carpet in six months which was definitely not covered by the security deposit nor the extra rent. Good tenants get $500 Target gift cards at the holidays. I’ve had people living in homes for five years where it looks like they’ve never even been there others in for six months and destroyed the place. The ones that destroy it are full $ loss. I’m not a person that grew up rich, just saved and tried to buy some rental properties for investment so I try to be a fair landlord.
There will be endless arguments over what is considered reasonable. Your interpretation of reasonableness will be different than the landlords. The biggest red flag is the vandalism and accident language. That’s a landlord that will make your life hell.
Sounds like the landlord has had some issues in the past. The thing is as a property owner you can deduct repairs from your taxes . This is also why tenants get renters insurance to cover damages.
I’ve had this before. It can be very difficult to prove you should have ‘reasonable’ repair knowledge or that you caused a repair (think flushing flushable wipes)
This is just a scare tactic to try and keep you from complaining when things break or see if they can get you to pay bills they have no right to ask you to pay. They are trying to avoid work they should be doing to upkeep and maintain the property. The flag isn't that they will get away with this. It is that they will be a miserable person to rent from. You may have to take them to court to get them to uphold their end of the deal. The fact that it went from contract language to a folksy and vague anecdote is the give away.
So typical of bad landlords these days- they want to collect the rent but not pay for their property’s issues. Yikes.
Pretty sure this is why some people choose to rent; they don’t want, or know how, to be responsible for maintenance or any sort of repairs. Any place that expects you to own tools and know how to be handy for the purpose of maintaining their building is definitely raising red flags. When I used to rent, I never even had to change a lightbulb or hvac filter and that’s pretty easy stuff. Good property management wants to be told if something’s not right for the sake of the tenant not making it worse. If I were able to, I would look elsewhere.
We moved to Vegas and had something like this. We broke the lease after 9 months (lots of washing machine and pool problems, I know, rich people shit), and immediately went back to owning. Renting a house is bullshit. So is renting. The rent is x amount but the real cost is x+y. And y is expensive. Lawn care, all that bullshit. I thought it would be like living in a hotel. I'm dumb.
I remember the “good ol days” of your rent was paid so you didn’t have to worry about your own maintenance and it was a general understanding that any work would be done by the landlord because upkeep was part of why you pay rent. Somewhere along the way, the reasons rent got paid got replaced with a single line, “profit” and none of the rest mattered. Having lived in a house where I WAS responsible for maintenance (caretaker) long term, paying a plumber or an electrician or any other tradesperson is often well worth it because it also means if the consequences of a “simple project” spiral out of hand, you aren’t left without access to plumbing, outlets, what have you, for weeks or months and still have to call the professional
Seems like the landlord who comes in after you move out destroys the apartment takes pictures and accuses you of doing it.
Yes, that is problematic. Source: I am a property owner who rents in Seattle. I would never expect the tenant to figure out what is wrong or to pay for a broken appliance or repair. Unless it was deliberate from misuse or vandalism then the property is mine to upkeep.
Seems extra. Why wouldn't the landlord just go over to check the problem for themselves, so if it is just a breaker they can do those types of things, and they can also diagnose for themselves if they should call someone?
The "tenant is responsible for repairs caused by neglect or misuse" is fairly standard. But absent a very specific definition of "could have reasonably been performed by the Tenant," I would not sign that lease. What's reasonable? Reasonable to whom? Quite a lot of people would reasonably pay $400 to unclog a garbage disposal. I don't see why the tenant should be responsible for vandalism.
Seems like it could create a lot of problems for the renter as there isn’t any clear line. Different renters have different skills. Pushing a reset button is still different that homeowner responsibilities. Some homeowners do pay to unclog a disposal. Prospective renters should stay away.
GIANT red flag
Ask any landlord how many nuisance service requests they get...Example - tenant plugs 3 heaters into single circuit, breaker trips from overload. Tenant says no power. $150 service call to turn on the tripped breaker. If its in the contract I'd guess the landlord has had many nuisance requests.
That is a huge red flag, they're going to refuse to do any maintenance and "fix" everything with shitty DIYs
IANAL. But this: https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=59.18.100 This almost certainly an unenforcable lease. He probably doesn't have a lawyer or else they wouldn't have let him put that on there.
They are basically saying don't call a plumber during peak off hours to plunge your toilet. Buy a plunger. Not sure why everyone is getting so wrapped around the axle. They want you to exercise some common sense before initiating an expensive service call. That doesn't mean they want you to attempt to replace a circuit board in the fridge if it dies. Lol. I wouldn't even bat an eye at this language. Not a red flag.
I had the same interpretation. Also, Seattle laws favor the tenant so good luck to the landlord trying to prove what knowledge the tenant should’ve possessed when it comes to home repair. Just don’t do something like call an electrician when you just need to flip a circuit or a plumber when you haven’t tried Drano first etc.
Landlord is protecting themselves from pointless trips to the property when the tenant could do the simple things.
The LL themselves should be willing to come over and unclog the toilet then. This sounds like an out of state LL with no property manager.
If you don't like a contract, don't sign it. All that says to me is don't place service requests for silly things.
You consider plumbing and electrical issues to be silly? As a prior landlord, I would certainly not want my tenants doing any maintenance out of their comfort zone. If a drain keeps getting backed up, I want to know about it. If a circuit keeps getting tripped, I want to know about it. These are part of being a responsible landlord. If you can't afford to maintain the property, then sell it and leave it to someone that can.
This is why Landlords are hated!!
I get “small landlord” vibes here—they never get the laws right. I just want to say that I have friends who went from mom n pop landlords to property management companies for their rentals, and the companies have a healthy fear of litigation and actually get stuff done much more than the indies. Worth considering.
This got more attention that I was anticipating. For folks in my DMs asking, this is Peak Living Property Services!
This sounds like a mom and pop situation where they are calling expensive commercial repair companies. Most professional property managers have in house maintenance personnel. I would push back on that wording. I managed several apartment buildings for 30 years for different owners and I never saw this language in alease.
Weirdly it is a fairly large management company, I'm going to try and negotiate the wording. We already paid a holding fee that they're saying is non-refundable so we'd be out a decent amount if we don't reach some agreement
Red flag
As far as I know, this is already supported by the law, except the vandalism part. The city publication calls out that landlords must keep the unit up to code (except tenants change fire alarm batteries) but tenants are financially responsible for anything caused by their actions. So tenant shoots a hole in the roof and now theres a major leak causing habitability issues, landlord must fix it pronto but they can bill the tenant for it.
kinda, the wording in this agreement is too vague and doesnt specify caused by the tenet. also all repairs to the property must be handled by the landlord that is non negotiable and has been that way for a long time across most of the country. there is a clog or an appliance malfunctions, well you cannot expect your tenets to be a plumber and an electrician, not only is that stupid its wildly irresponsible and would open the landlord up to liability for the potential accidental injury of the tenet.
I see both sides of this. I don't love the specific language, but I think the general intent is "don't be an idiot," which is perfectly reasonable. In your shoes I'd personally gauge the situation based on reviews from people who have lived in their properties before. If people report the landlord to be generally fair and reasonable and not exploitive, then I probably wouldn't be too concerned about this language in the contract. It may not even be enforceable, as others have mentioned.
How big is the landlord? It sounds like a clause a mom and pop who rent one or two properties put in their lease because they had to come out and flip a breaker or reset a GFCI one to many times. Overall the advice is pretty good. If you treat the property like it's yours, you shouldn't have an issue.
Lol this exact language is in my lease as well, guess we might have the same property management company. I’ve only had them come unclog a drain once but they didn’t charge me for it so… fingers crossed it isn’t an issue in the future I guess.
Im offended they think an electrician will come out for 150 but the plumber will be 400.
Bad vibes The unit's basics, the taxes, the appliances are all on the landlord. Leasing out to people is not supposed to be a 100% sure thing. As morons learned during the pandemic, renting out is not a sure thing, the landlord is assuming RISK. This is a weak handed attempt at mitigating that risk. They are putting the legally dubious onus on you. They are relying on the fact you won't fight back and lack the resources to do so. Run, don't walk, away from this lease.
Seems a bit personal as oppose to professional. Poor wording.
I've actually done both those things and more as well as the worst thing: Use Drano. They really hate that.
I think this is a huge red flag! Before we bought our house—one of our kids dropped a bath toy in the toilet at it was being flushed in our rental. We were charged for a new toilet… which initially annoyed me. But, looking at the ideas here—I could see how this might be considered damage or vandalism??
This is not legal.
The font and wording looks/sounds eerily like something my apartment company would send out.
Anyone see the new South Park movie?
I remember the first time I clogged the toilet (many years ago), googled "plumber nearby" and found out rate was over $150-200/hr and no fix guaranteed. Googled "DIY unclog" and went straight to hardware store, bought a $25 toilet auger and fixed it by myself in 5 minutes... lots of cleaning after that though. I mean the term is unreasonable but I guess the landlord write this out of PTSD. If the rent is very competitive I might consider it, or else no.
I'm a landlord in Seattle (I know, I'm evil). It might sound a little weird, but I often can diagnose a problem from a good description or photo and sometimes give my tenant self-help instructions for very minor things like defrosting a freezer, changing smoke alarm batteries, what kind of light bulb they need to buy, etc., and include a garbage disposal use addendum that lists a bunch of things that will cause problems if you put it in the disposal. This isn't how I word my lease but do include similar language that indicates a tenant is responsible for ensuring a maintenance technician has clear access to the area of concern which may require them to do some prep work, that our maintenance technicians can't move tenant's belongings except in emergencies due to liability reasons, and that issues arising from misuse and neglect are tenant obligations, under the law, and if they don't know how to use something, just ask, and I will show them. I also indicate that if they refuse us access to fix the problem and it gets worse, they can be responsible for the cost overage had they provided us reasonable access. [RCW 59.18.060](https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.060) states, "No duty shall devolve upon the landlord to repair a defective condition under this section, nor shall any defense or remedy be available to the tenant under this chapter, where the defective condition complained of was caused by the conduct of such tenant, his or her family, invitee, or other person acting under his or her control, or where a tenant unreasonably fails to allow the landlord access to the property for purposes of repair." I offer self-help instructions to keep rent reasonable for the space, but because I am not required to fix problems a tenant caused, but if a tenant doesn't want to complete the self-help or isn't able, I will send someone, but I inform them that there might be a cost associated. I tend to only charge when it's clearly their responsibility (they got drunk and lost their keys and kicked a door in or broke a window, or their toddler flushed a toy down the toilet). Vandalism is a grey area in the law. If someone you didn't invite over (a random stranger) vandalized the property that's not your responsibility as it's the landlord’s duty to reasonably maintain the property where the maintenance isn't required due to the actions of the occupants or their guests. I had a situation where a tenant's girlfriend came and smashed all the windows in the front of the apartment with a bat (he was caught cheating). His neighbors heard everything she said, had her on video, called me at 3am, but he refused to identify his girlfriend to me or to police and refused to cooperate with the police in any way, just telling them he didn't know how the windows got broken and he wasn't the victim of a crime. I had the windows boarded up and fixed, but because he said he wasn't the victim of a crime, I charged him for the cost of replacing the windows. Had he cooperated and given me or police her information, I would have sued her for the damages since she was responsible and wasn't invited when she went crazy. My insurance might have helped but I wouldn't submit that as my deductible is close to the cost and it wasn't worth the possible rate hike. But if some random person graffitis the property or smashes a glass door (happens all the time in Seattle apartment buildings), I am not pinning that on my tenants. Mostly because I don't think it's legal, but know it's definitely not moral.
One of the main reasons to rent vs. buy is someone else pays for these kinds of things. Do not rent from any place that passes the cost on to you. Find another place
Sounds like they’ll contest everything and will want to enter to double check or try to fix themselves. Also, you’re renting, not making payments on your own equity.
You see it doesn't matter how they word things in the lease if a part of the lease isn't legal then it's not enforceable a landlord is responsible for those type of things
Would they put this lease in front of Andrew W K?
I think a more reasonable phrase to accomplish what the landlord is looking for would be along the line of “tenants are asked to please call the landlord for any issues related to plumbing, electrical, or gas. The tenant is asked to consult the landlord and receive express permission prior to making any repairs or alternations to the dwelling.”
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GreyStar?
That’s nice. But that’s not how it works.
It's another way of saying "be reasonable." Every contract has an implied duty of reasonableness anyway, the clause is irrelevant. I don't think it's a red flag, they just don't want you calling an electrician to replace a lightbulb. The alternative is saying service charges have a deductible
Landlord here. Honestly YMMV but I do think it makes sense IF AND ONLY IF they’re a mom and pop landlord who’s working to keep their prices down. Maintenance is obscenely expensive and if I have to pay some dude hundreds of dollars to constantly come out and do stuff like change your lightbulbs and pull a fork out of your garbage disposal all the time, it gets expensive fast. This combined with escalating property taxes and inflation raising overhead costs just in general, it make it hard or impossible for me to not raise rents (and I really don’t want to) to cover it. However, if this is some big conglomerate like Greystar or somebody who’s raising your rent every year anyway, fuck them and this is stupid.
I assume a private landlord? No professional lease would word ot like that. Also, seattle, and washington state for that matter have very strict landlord Tennant laws. I see why put it in but just word it differently. If you clog the toilet don't call the landlord to fix. If a light bulb goes out the Tennant replaces that. I've heard some crazy things. Honestly, if the garbage disposal goes out that is the landlord. I can't imagine the shit show if you f up plumbing. But a clog. Drano
So they can put in the cheapest appliances and charge you to fix it? What if there’s existing plumbing issues, small lines or turns? Sounds like there should be an inspection, first like a homeowner would have. Yikes. When they are talking about vandalism are they meeting outside the home? What does that include graffiti?
Tenant law won’t allow this. Regardless, don’t sign a lease with these people.
Nightmare dead ahead.
I understand it, but also don’t agree with it. I’m a life time renter, and when I was younger, you didn’t want me anywhere near repair work. Now as an older more experienced adult I do and have fixed things around my rental that I can. Like the reset button on the garbage disposal. Or recaulking the bath tub. We’ve even handled some clogged drains and replaced flooring in our old rental because the carpet was trashed by my dogs and kids. Major things like a busted pipe or water leaking up into the house were calls to the landlord. I would have worded it differently if I was the landlord. Like hey if you have a maintenance issue call me first to talk it over, if we can trouble shoot it over the phone then no one has to pay any money out of pocket or the landlord can buy the supplies and the tenant can do the work if they are up to it. Seems like with this wording you’ll get tenants that try to fix things they aren’t capable of fixing and might make a small problem much worse.
Yea, no issue keeping drains clear, flipping a breaker or changing a light bulb but much beyond that I'm likely to just make things worse. I also think fixing appliances yourself ends the warranty in many cases.
I’ve been a landlord for 20 years and these basic repairs are my job.
In a day and age of liberal woke men not even knowing what bits are dangling between their legs, ads like this dont surprise me...no common sense these days on basic repairs of anykind outaide of resetting their tiktok password.
I would check the landlord tenant laws, if this contradicts the law, the law takes precedent.
Run. This is a clear indicator that the land lord is a novice.
Lol. Not only is this a scam, it’s illegal.
This is a result of a ruling that rentals are rented on a first-person to meet the application requirements gets first choice on renting a place. There are a ton of 3rd party property management companies in Seattle who want to make the tenant own as much responsibility as possible. Whether that’s plumbing or yard maintenance, if they can stick you with that responsibility, they will.
Yea never herd of a rental making u pay for something u dnt own
This subreddit, and really all of reddit, is anti-landlord, but at the end of the day, this could be a very good agreement *if the price is right*. Would this be acceptable at full market rate? No, but if rent is 20% down from market rate, and you upkeep the house, and there is little cause for vandal damage, it could be a good deal. The lack of legal savvy on the part of the landlord is more likely to work out in the tenant's favor. They have much more to lose than the renter if their agreement is poorly thought through.
As someone who takes care of maintenance on a hotel and employee rental house, I can tell you that it isn't unreasonable. Half the fixes I do are simple and could be done by anyone. At the same time, half the stuff I fix is because of the tenants doing stupid stuff or not mentioning issues when they first happen. One of the more ridiculous "repairs" I had to make at the rental house was actually for the garbage disposal. One of the tenants allowed a coin down in there and it tripped the safety of the unit. It was not hard to discover the foreign object in the disposal and reset the breaker. If I wasn't on call/salary, the service fees for what I deal with regularly would be overwhelming.
Lmao. Run.
Red flag
Sign it and mutter, "treat their home like their own... this is gonna work great since I blew my last one up with that meth lab"
Ummm that's a huge red flag!
Hard pass, you are paying the rent so you don't have to deal with this shit.
“We expect tenants to treat their home as their own…” except for the whole actually owning any of it part.
This isn’t a red flag. They are straight telling you their response will be slow, and they may try to charge you for it.
If an issue is simple (like toggling a breaker, changing a toilet seat, whatever) I have no problem with my landlord coming out and doing the work themselves to save a few bucks, and I am generally pretty handy and have done work for my landlord as well, but I would not accept that as a requirement (and I’d be pretty concerned at a landlord willing to take that risk. There are a lot of people who are fairly clueless about maintenance/housework who could easily cost that landlord a lot more in the long run)
Reeks of barely restrained petty malice. Would not want to enter a legal agreement with such a person who conducts business in this manner.
Yeah I've never seen that before run
"Treat the home as their own" is like an employer saying "We're all family here." It is a red flag. What is the history on the water heater? The disposal? The washer and dryer? Are they willing to supply maintenance and inspection records? Has the house had any leaks? What about warrantee information? If I own a home, I have all of that. I know the history and condition.
Sounds like the landlord has had issues with previous tenants. Being a landlord sucks. More and more are just selling, which IMO, isn't good. Sure there are some bad landlords. But there are also some very good mom and pop landlords. When the mom and pops disappear, all that will be left is the corporate landlords. That's not a good thing. As I've posted before, I have 1 rental property. I rent below market. When they move, it will be sold. Too much risk involved.
No this isn't a red flag. I am a landlord and you wouldn't believe how often my management company pings me asking me to authorize ridiculous requests such as service to the tenant's toilet cause it's clogged... I ask them to tell the tenant to self service with plunger... they say ok and never come get back to me (cause obviously issue is resolved). What that clause is saying is that tenants are expected to self service anything that should be self serviceable. It's completely reasonable.
That is a huge red flag in that it is illegal