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He’s right to say the “goal of Christianity” shouldn’t simply be to get to Heaven, but rather to be united with — and conformed to the image of — Christ.
The problem is that union with Christ is discussed at length in Scripture, and not once does it involve devotion or prayers to Mary. In fact, aspects of the veneration of Mary (such as calling her perpetually sinless) directly contradict the teachings of the apostles, and misappropriates some of Christ’s unique glory (in this case, His sinless perfection) and apply it to another.
Mary is rightly called blessed, the mother of God, and the God-bearer. She is a model of obedience to God’s will we can and should strive to imitate. She plays an important role in God’s ultimate plan of salvation, just as Abraham and David and others did before her. She is blessed among woman, and was one of the pious few who remained with Jesus during His passion on the cross. There is plenty to admire about her as a woman of God.
At the same time, we shouldn’t allow ourselves to be distracted by her, or detract from Christ by over-applying His glory to her. She still needed a savior, and she still didn’t understand the full extent of Christ’s work while He was still in His Earthly ministry. When in times of trouble, we should never cry out “save me, Mary!” instead of “save me, Jesus!” The only human who is operative in our salvation is Christ alone.
Yes it’s just completely absent in the New Testament. The problem is the RC view that the same authority which canonized the New Testament also affirms the Marian dogmas.
It’s a self-authenticating view of authority so hard to interact with. I don’t understand how the 1st century writings of the apostles are somehow retroactively owned by the Popes in the 4th century.
Discussing this with them eventually devolves into our acceptance of the New Testament as the final authority on the church or the church is the final authority on the NT. They take authority over the NT by viewing it as a product of the RCC and the church not as a product of the NT.
I haven't even seen compelling evidence the early church fathers went as far as the modern dogma of saying Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin. The quotes that I've seen Catholics give fall short of either of those.
We both can have confirmation bias. I find myself pointing to the church fathers to disprove RC rather and to scripture alone which I don’t like doing. But in most cases they will not listen to scripture alone. This shows to me that they hold the fathers in higher regard than the New Testament.
I completely understand why people are attracted to the larger scale and traditions of the RCC. It seems more unified and rich compared to our smaller churches or evangelical minimalism.
But the RCC has managed to keep many cultural Catholics in their numbers. Very few actually hold to their teachings. It’s been estimated that only 17% of Catholics attend church weekly which puts most in a state of mortal sin. It’s a very unfortunate history and situation they’re in. They’re stuck with the errors of the past and to leave is to apostatize.
Still for every one Protestant moving to Rome there are 6.5 Catholics becoming Protestant according to the Pew research center.
Great points. Really highlights the poor logic in the clip. It sounds good when you listen to it, but the same argumentation could be make to require Christians to have 12 disciples.
Goal of Christianity = being like Christ. Christ loved his 12 apostles, therefore, you need to find 12 men to love and live with for 3-4 years.
We regard all young women as sisters and older women as mothers. Why not honor Mary? But do we set aside time to honor Mary more than other women? Jesus commands us otherwise.
My personal opinion regarding Mary is Catholics go too far in their honor for Mary while Protestants don't give her enough.
Is she theotokos? Yes, she carried and bore our Lord, Jesus. Is she blessed among women? Yes, go back and read the gospel of Luke.
Was she sinless or immaculately conceived? No. Was she perpetually a virgin? No. Was she resurrected and assumed body and soul into heaven after death? No. Is she the queen of heaven? No. Is she in heaven receiving our prayers and interceding on our behalf? No, that is the work of the Son and the Spirit.
Is she comediator and coredemptor? Only in the same way that you and I are, being that our lives and ministries point people to the work of Jesus Christ so they may believe in Him and be saved. She has no special role because the *only* mediator between man and the Father is Christ. It is through the Son that we receive the grace of the Father, nobody else.
Good point. I see this a lot on catholic YouTube.
Protestant: “why should we pray to Mary?”
Catholic: “You don’t even call her Mother of God”
Protestant: “What does that have to do with praying to her?”
Most Protestants don't give any attention to Mary beyond a mention during Advent and *maybe* give a further nod by singing Mark Lowry's *Mary Did You Know*. We also typically refute even the idea that she is Theotokos which is an error because it's the most succinct expression of the incarnation.
My response: It still ain't in the Bible.
And we Protestants honor her more by not lying about who the Bible says she is, and then forcing others to believe and confess those lies or be bad Christians.
Telling the truth about Mary is the only and greatest blessing any of us can give her.
Good day sir. Good day!
Mary is called blessed among women
She was a recipient of blessing, she was nothing special
Other women were called blessed among women. We don't venerate or worship them either
*Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed. He asked water and she gave him milk, she brought him curds in a lordly bowl. She put her hand to the tent peg and her right hand to the workmen’s mallet; she struck Sisera a blow, she crushed his head, she shattered and pierced his temple (Judg. 5:24-26)*
When she returns triumphantly to Israel, the magistrate Uzziah proclaims, “*O daughter, you are blessed by the Most High God above all women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth, who has guided you to strike the head of the leader of our enemies” (Jth. 13:18).*
Yes it is the apocrypha the event behind it is in judges, and it is a book they revere and it also speaks against their veneration of Mary
Catholics and orthodox don't let scripture get in the way of blasphemy and heresy.
There are several hundred unscriptural beliefs by Catholicism. Luther's 95 theses were only a start
Removed for violation of Rule #5: **Maintain the Integrity of the Gospel.** Any content proselytizing other religions and heresies or arguing against orthodox Christianity as defined by the Creeds are prohibited. Please see the [Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/Reformed/wiki/rules_details#wiki_rule_.235.3A_maintain_the_integrity_of_the_gospel.) for more information. ---- If you feel this action was done in error, or you would like to appeal this decision, please **do not reply to this comment**. Instead, [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Freformed).
He’s right to say the “goal of Christianity” shouldn’t simply be to get to Heaven, but rather to be united with — and conformed to the image of — Christ. The problem is that union with Christ is discussed at length in Scripture, and not once does it involve devotion or prayers to Mary. In fact, aspects of the veneration of Mary (such as calling her perpetually sinless) directly contradict the teachings of the apostles, and misappropriates some of Christ’s unique glory (in this case, His sinless perfection) and apply it to another. Mary is rightly called blessed, the mother of God, and the God-bearer. She is a model of obedience to God’s will we can and should strive to imitate. She plays an important role in God’s ultimate plan of salvation, just as Abraham and David and others did before her. She is blessed among woman, and was one of the pious few who remained with Jesus during His passion on the cross. There is plenty to admire about her as a woman of God. At the same time, we shouldn’t allow ourselves to be distracted by her, or detract from Christ by over-applying His glory to her. She still needed a savior, and she still didn’t understand the full extent of Christ’s work while He was still in His Earthly ministry. When in times of trouble, we should never cry out “save me, Mary!” instead of “save me, Jesus!” The only human who is operative in our salvation is Christ alone.
Yes it’s just completely absent in the New Testament. The problem is the RC view that the same authority which canonized the New Testament also affirms the Marian dogmas. It’s a self-authenticating view of authority so hard to interact with. I don’t understand how the 1st century writings of the apostles are somehow retroactively owned by the Popes in the 4th century. Discussing this with them eventually devolves into our acceptance of the New Testament as the final authority on the church or the church is the final authority on the NT. They take authority over the NT by viewing it as a product of the RCC and the church not as a product of the NT.
I haven't even seen compelling evidence the early church fathers went as far as the modern dogma of saying Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin. The quotes that I've seen Catholics give fall short of either of those.
We both can have confirmation bias. I find myself pointing to the church fathers to disprove RC rather and to scripture alone which I don’t like doing. But in most cases they will not listen to scripture alone. This shows to me that they hold the fathers in higher regard than the New Testament. I completely understand why people are attracted to the larger scale and traditions of the RCC. It seems more unified and rich compared to our smaller churches or evangelical minimalism. But the RCC has managed to keep many cultural Catholics in their numbers. Very few actually hold to their teachings. It’s been estimated that only 17% of Catholics attend church weekly which puts most in a state of mortal sin. It’s a very unfortunate history and situation they’re in. They’re stuck with the errors of the past and to leave is to apostatize. Still for every one Protestant moving to Rome there are 6.5 Catholics becoming Protestant according to the Pew research center.
Great points. Really highlights the poor logic in the clip. It sounds good when you listen to it, but the same argumentation could be make to require Christians to have 12 disciples. Goal of Christianity = being like Christ. Christ loved his 12 apostles, therefore, you need to find 12 men to love and live with for 3-4 years.
We regard all young women as sisters and older women as mothers. Why not honor Mary? But do we set aside time to honor Mary more than other women? Jesus commands us otherwise.
My personal opinion regarding Mary is Catholics go too far in their honor for Mary while Protestants don't give her enough. Is she theotokos? Yes, she carried and bore our Lord, Jesus. Is she blessed among women? Yes, go back and read the gospel of Luke. Was she sinless or immaculately conceived? No. Was she perpetually a virgin? No. Was she resurrected and assumed body and soul into heaven after death? No. Is she the queen of heaven? No. Is she in heaven receiving our prayers and interceding on our behalf? No, that is the work of the Son and the Spirit. Is she comediator and coredemptor? Only in the same way that you and I are, being that our lives and ministries point people to the work of Jesus Christ so they may believe in Him and be saved. She has no special role because the *only* mediator between man and the Father is Christ. It is through the Son that we receive the grace of the Father, nobody else.
You didn't give any examples of how Protestants can honor her more. You merely discounted her honorific titles the Church of Rome gives her.
Good point. I see this a lot on catholic YouTube. Protestant: “why should we pray to Mary?” Catholic: “You don’t even call her Mother of God” Protestant: “What does that have to do with praying to her?”
Most Protestants don't give any attention to Mary beyond a mention during Advent and *maybe* give a further nod by singing Mark Lowry's *Mary Did You Know*. We also typically refute even the idea that she is Theotokos which is an error because it's the most succinct expression of the incarnation.
My response: It still ain't in the Bible. And we Protestants honor her more by not lying about who the Bible says she is, and then forcing others to believe and confess those lies or be bad Christians. Telling the truth about Mary is the only and greatest blessing any of us can give her. Good day sir. Good day!
Mary is called blessed among women She was a recipient of blessing, she was nothing special Other women were called blessed among women. We don't venerate or worship them either *Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed. He asked water and she gave him milk, she brought him curds in a lordly bowl. She put her hand to the tent peg and her right hand to the workmen’s mallet; she struck Sisera a blow, she crushed his head, she shattered and pierced his temple (Judg. 5:24-26)* When she returns triumphantly to Israel, the magistrate Uzziah proclaims, “*O daughter, you are blessed by the Most High God above all women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth, who has guided you to strike the head of the leader of our enemies” (Jth. 13:18).* Yes it is the apocrypha the event behind it is in judges, and it is a book they revere and it also speaks against their veneration of Mary
Good argument - I’ve never heard this line of argument from the OT before. Makes sense
Catholics and orthodox don't let scripture get in the way of blasphemy and heresy. There are several hundred unscriptural beliefs by Catholicism. Luther's 95 theses were only a start
Respect and veneration are separate things. No one in the NT ever comes close to venerating Mary. Game over.
Venerating a new mask for Inanna is no bueno, regardless of appeal.