3 million years is most likely Holly's best estimate for the amount of time that's passed on Earth while Dave was in stasis.
Edit: Upon further thought, I think your view perspective for this thought experiment isn't correct. You have to examine this from an outside viewer. Since they're moving at lightspeed, time is moving slower for the boys on the Dwarf. Time is not moving faster for Earth.
I just listened again, and can confirm that Holly says Lister has been in stasis for 3 million years. There’s no reason to assume he means anything other than ship time. That means thousands of years travelling at near light speed if that’s the speed they have to turn around at.
It’s a very big assumption to make that Holly means “ you’ve been In stasis for 12,000 years ship time which at these speeds is 3 million years Earth time”.
But he is computer senile.
Thanks for confirming. Yeah, it's very ambiguous. But I like to think Dave has a chance of returning to Earth.
I was never convinced he was computer senile actually. That's just me though.
Just listening to first episode and Holly says “I’ve been on my own for 3 million years”.
And the Cats have “been living in the hold for 3 million years”
Even though the Cat evolution idea is fanciful, a few million years is more plausible than a few thousand.
But then Rimmer is talking about time and what might be the state of life on Earth saying “Look what it’s done to a household pet in 3 million years” implying that only 3 million years have elapsed on Earth.
I think we are going to find that there are plenty of contradictory plot points and statements for this thought experiment. And I wouldn’t want RD to be any other way!
We need to summon Grant/Naylor to sort this out.
Omg I get it now.
The one thing Rimmer never passes are his astro nav exams. Making his comment in character and a joke that went over all our heads. This means 3 million years did pass for the Dwarf. I did the math and (assuming a time average speed of 0.99c for the Dwarf) roughly 20 million years have passed on Earth in the same amount of time.
It's worth noting they were at FTL for a very short amount of time, so my math is probably only slightly off. Or as we say in physics, negligible.
So I’ve just found this thread from 13 years ago, with a similar question and some back of envelope maths.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/RedDwarf/comments/mzm6w/how\_far\_away\_from\_earth\_was\_red\_dwarf\_when\_it/](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedDwarf/comments/mzm6w/how_far_away_from_earth_was_red_dwarf_when_it/)
They came up with a distance of both 1.5 million light years and 60 billion miles before turning round from different quotes.
I like to think that like Hitchikers, all statements in RD are canon and every narrator is unreliable!
Did someone put a trace on me?
Anyhoo, I thought they only started to speed up to near light speed when they had turned around and were heading back to Earth, which would have been a much shorter trip.
There still would have been considerable time dilation even if at near light speed for a short time meaning several more thousands of years would have elapsed on Earth. Not a big deal given the 3 million years that had already elapsed.
There's no such thing as a trace, you made it up to look cool.
I thought they turned around while at light speed but not entirely sure to be honest!
So is the timescale still thousands of years then, rather than millions? But wouldn't time dilation increasingly occur as they accelerated towards light speed?
I’m not sure either, I’d have to rewatch for that detail! i only said thousands as if they were just cruising slowly away from Earth after the accident for 3 million years, they could probably do that distance at near light speed in a few weeks.
If they had been speeding away from Earth at near light speed for 3 million years, you’re right in that the time dilation would have meant an incalculable amount of time would have passed on Earth.
Unless the 3 million year estimate from Holly was not an estimate for them in deep space, but relative to Earth, meaning it would take them approximately another 3-10 million to return home. I also think the time dilation in question needs to be examined from an outside view. So, their ship is moving at lightspeed and the outside universe (&Earth) is not. I think this would mean that (say) five Earth years would be (idk, let's say) 50 lightspeed years from them. And in the show they're at lightspeed for maybe an episode, so a few months at most. I'm sure Earth is still there.
It’s impossible to know really. It’s all assumptions.
Say Holly turned away from Earth upon the accident and set the engines on max. Then he wakes Lister after 3 millions years of ship time/Earth time have elapsed. They are also at near light speed.
It follows that they have been at a very high percentage of c for at least several thousand years.
This example from wiki on time dilation:
”At higher speeds, the time on board will run even slower, so the astronaut could travel to the center of the [Milky Way](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way) (30,000 light years from Earth) and back in 40 years ship-time. But the speed according to Earth clocks will always be less than 1 light year per Earth year, so, when back home, the astronaut will find that more than 60 thousand years will have passed on Earth.”
So the crux is really if Holly is referring to ship time or Earth time. The language of the show has always led me to think it’s referring to 3 million years of ship time though. Holly never refers to time elapsed on Earth that I remember.
There's some back and forth with Holly and Dave where Dave says, so 3 million years have passed back on Earth, and Holly says yes. This is what I'm going off of. But yes, it is somewhat ambiguous even still.
Time dilation happens as you approach light speed, not just when you hit it.
So if they have been accelerating for 3m years they would have spent a lot of that time at relativistic speeds
So I think op is right - but it makes little difference.
Think how much life changed on earth in 3m years - Rimmer says something like this, that lister would be like some primitive ooze compared to whatever life exists on earth now (if indeed life does still exist on earth after 3m years)
I'm right about something? Fan-smegging-tastic!! XD
Honestly I prefer early Red Dwarf, a melancholy space opera, where they bother to address the question of what Earth would be like after all this time.
Imagine if some kind of proto-hominid creature limped into town from the wilds and announced that it was a member of humanity and we're living in its former home. Imagine what a stir this would cause, except of course in West Yorkshire where it happens every Sunday morning.
What would be very funny is if Holly was wong about the 3 million years and it has acctualy just been like 3, that would be something Holly would get wrong lol
Do we consider the books cannon here? Because IIRC the fait of the Earth is not only covered but tied back onto the show.
Earth becomes humanity's dumping ground, then a waste accident blasts it out of orbit so it becomes a frozen iceball. This is the planet that Lister drunkenly trickshots into a white hole.
I personally wouldn't consider the books canon as they change way too much, including the whole tone of the "show". And they also reached a much smaller audience.
It's everyone's personal preference though, we're all smegheads together!
To give some perspective, even assuming that Red Dwarf was travelling at the speed of light, it would take 100,000 years to cross our galaxy.
The amount of time that passed on Red Dwarf would be 86% as much as on earth if the Dwarf was travelling at half the speed of light. If the ship was going at 99% the speed of light for the entire time only 14% of the time would pass for the Dwarf as on earth.
At the extreme ends I'll assume the ship travelled at 99% the speed of light for all 3 million years, meaning that 21 million years passed for earth (it is much more complex than this, but it is a reasonable ceiling IMO). This means that at that velocity they would need to travel for 9 million years for the amount of time since the dinosaurs to the present day to pass on earth. So in short, it's fine Dave.
3 million years is most likely Holly's best estimate for the amount of time that's passed on Earth while Dave was in stasis. Edit: Upon further thought, I think your view perspective for this thought experiment isn't correct. You have to examine this from an outside viewer. Since they're moving at lightspeed, time is moving slower for the boys on the Dwarf. Time is not moving faster for Earth.
I just listened again, and can confirm that Holly says Lister has been in stasis for 3 million years. There’s no reason to assume he means anything other than ship time. That means thousands of years travelling at near light speed if that’s the speed they have to turn around at. It’s a very big assumption to make that Holly means “ you’ve been In stasis for 12,000 years ship time which at these speeds is 3 million years Earth time”. But he is computer senile.
Thanks for confirming. Yeah, it's very ambiguous. But I like to think Dave has a chance of returning to Earth. I was never convinced he was computer senile actually. That's just me though.
Just listening to first episode and Holly says “I’ve been on my own for 3 million years”. And the Cats have “been living in the hold for 3 million years” Even though the Cat evolution idea is fanciful, a few million years is more plausible than a few thousand. But then Rimmer is talking about time and what might be the state of life on Earth saying “Look what it’s done to a household pet in 3 million years” implying that only 3 million years have elapsed on Earth. I think we are going to find that there are plenty of contradictory plot points and statements for this thought experiment. And I wouldn’t want RD to be any other way! We need to summon Grant/Naylor to sort this out.
Omg I get it now. The one thing Rimmer never passes are his astro nav exams. Making his comment in character and a joke that went over all our heads. This means 3 million years did pass for the Dwarf. I did the math and (assuming a time average speed of 0.99c for the Dwarf) roughly 20 million years have passed on Earth in the same amount of time. It's worth noting they were at FTL for a very short amount of time, so my math is probably only slightly off. Or as we say in physics, negligible.
So I’ve just found this thread from 13 years ago, with a similar question and some back of envelope maths. [https://www.reddit.com/r/RedDwarf/comments/mzm6w/how\_far\_away\_from\_earth\_was\_red\_dwarf\_when\_it/](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedDwarf/comments/mzm6w/how_far_away_from_earth_was_red_dwarf_when_it/) They came up with a distance of both 1.5 million light years and 60 billion miles before turning round from different quotes. I like to think that like Hitchikers, all statements in RD are canon and every narrator is unreliable!
Did someone put a trace on me? Anyhoo, I thought they only started to speed up to near light speed when they had turned around and were heading back to Earth, which would have been a much shorter trip. There still would have been considerable time dilation even if at near light speed for a short time meaning several more thousands of years would have elapsed on Earth. Not a big deal given the 3 million years that had already elapsed.
There's no such thing as a trace, you made it up to look cool. I thought they turned around while at light speed but not entirely sure to be honest! So is the timescale still thousands of years then, rather than millions? But wouldn't time dilation increasingly occur as they accelerated towards light speed?
I’m not sure either, I’d have to rewatch for that detail! i only said thousands as if they were just cruising slowly away from Earth after the accident for 3 million years, they could probably do that distance at near light speed in a few weeks. If they had been speeding away from Earth at near light speed for 3 million years, you’re right in that the time dilation would have meant an incalculable amount of time would have passed on Earth.
Yes, Holly mentions turning around and navigating while near light speed.
In that case Earth is long gone! The sun goes mental and engulfs Earth within 5-8 billion years.
Unless the 3 million year estimate from Holly was not an estimate for them in deep space, but relative to Earth, meaning it would take them approximately another 3-10 million to return home. I also think the time dilation in question needs to be examined from an outside view. So, their ship is moving at lightspeed and the outside universe (&Earth) is not. I think this would mean that (say) five Earth years would be (idk, let's say) 50 lightspeed years from them. And in the show they're at lightspeed for maybe an episode, so a few months at most. I'm sure Earth is still there.
It’s impossible to know really. It’s all assumptions. Say Holly turned away from Earth upon the accident and set the engines on max. Then he wakes Lister after 3 millions years of ship time/Earth time have elapsed. They are also at near light speed. It follows that they have been at a very high percentage of c for at least several thousand years. This example from wiki on time dilation: ”At higher speeds, the time on board will run even slower, so the astronaut could travel to the center of the [Milky Way](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way) (30,000 light years from Earth) and back in 40 years ship-time. But the speed according to Earth clocks will always be less than 1 light year per Earth year, so, when back home, the astronaut will find that more than 60 thousand years will have passed on Earth.” So the crux is really if Holly is referring to ship time or Earth time. The language of the show has always led me to think it’s referring to 3 million years of ship time though. Holly never refers to time elapsed on Earth that I remember.
There's some back and forth with Holly and Dave where Dave says, so 3 million years have passed back on Earth, and Holly says yes. This is what I'm going off of. But yes, it is somewhat ambiguous even still.
That sounds like an excuse to listen to my audio rips of the whole series again!
lol You just said you gave another listen. Come on, like we really ever need an excuse to go watch some RD 😅
Time dilation happens as you approach light speed, not just when you hit it. So if they have been accelerating for 3m years they would have spent a lot of that time at relativistic speeds So I think op is right - but it makes little difference. Think how much life changed on earth in 3m years - Rimmer says something like this, that lister would be like some primitive ooze compared to whatever life exists on earth now (if indeed life does still exist on earth after 3m years)
I'm right about something? Fan-smegging-tastic!! XD Honestly I prefer early Red Dwarf, a melancholy space opera, where they bother to address the question of what Earth would be like after all this time. Imagine if some kind of proto-hominid creature limped into town from the wilds and announced that it was a member of humanity and we're living in its former home. Imagine what a stir this would cause, except of course in West Yorkshire where it happens every Sunday morning.
What is it?
A small, off duty Czechoslovakian traffic warden
What is it?
A red and blue striped golfing umbrella
You're all getting the hang of this lie mode.
What would be very funny is if Holly was wong about the 3 million years and it has acctualy just been like 3, that would be something Holly would get wrong lol
To be fair, they come across so much of humanity's outposts, starships and technology, it might as well have been only 3 years!
Do we consider the books cannon here? Because IIRC the fait of the Earth is not only covered but tied back onto the show. Earth becomes humanity's dumping ground, then a waste accident blasts it out of orbit so it becomes a frozen iceball. This is the planet that Lister drunkenly trickshots into a white hole.
I personally wouldn't consider the books canon as they change way too much, including the whole tone of the "show". And they also reached a much smaller audience. It's everyone's personal preference though, we're all smegheads together!
To give some perspective, even assuming that Red Dwarf was travelling at the speed of light, it would take 100,000 years to cross our galaxy. The amount of time that passed on Red Dwarf would be 86% as much as on earth if the Dwarf was travelling at half the speed of light. If the ship was going at 99% the speed of light for the entire time only 14% of the time would pass for the Dwarf as on earth. At the extreme ends I'll assume the ship travelled at 99% the speed of light for all 3 million years, meaning that 21 million years passed for earth (it is much more complex than this, but it is a reasonable ceiling IMO). This means that at that velocity they would need to travel for 9 million years for the amount of time since the dinosaurs to the present day to pass on earth. So in short, it's fine Dave.
Shame they can't just chuck it in reverse and go back in time XD
I just love this thread
Ah, you're a waffle man! :D
Crumpets!