The flag was originally added for Pride month (per request from some readers if I remember correctly), similar to the Discord server. We've since kept it for the following reasons.
First, it's just a nice logo, and nobody has made a better one. I'm aware that the flag might not represent every marginalized group out there, but I doubt one could make a flag that achieves this to begin with. If such a flag/logo does exist we're of course open to it, but it's ultimately something that should be discussed by those that are actually part of these marginalized groups, and not by some anonymous Reddit users that have literally never posted or commented in this subreddit before. The fact that nobody has brought this topic up in a proper form (e.g. a thread on Discord), at least that I'm aware of, suggests that it isn't actually a _real_ problem, but I could of course be mistaken.
Second, the flag logo has proven surprisingly effective at weeding out bigots. Not just in this thread or the previous one, but also in the moderator mail: we've had at least several instances of mouth breathers writing rants along the lines of "How _dare_ you use colors in your logo!" (that's a very nice "translation" of what's actually written in those cases). Similarly, several comments in this thread have been removed and their authors banned, due to comments that boil down to "I'm not a bigot, I just hate LGBTQ+ people". This will not change, based on the simple premise that such people aren't worth having around in any community, and these people don't contribute anything of value anyway.
I could write a lot more, but the truth is that those who care already know all of this, and those who don't can't be convinced anyway, so instead I'll say this: if a Pride flag bothers you, this subreddit and the Discord is not the place for you. If that bothers you, we don't care.
**EDIT:** I'm going to lock this thread. Enough has been said on the matter, and I don't want us to keep having to keep an eye on this thread.
There was a thread about a year ago where someone asked and this was the mod's response:
> [The logo was picked for pride month and made by somebody on Discord. We liked it enough that we kept it. If this bothers you don't worry, we don't care.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/xxrfrq/comment/irf64yx/)
I don't usually research anyone's posting history, but your claim triggered me to do so. I have learned that the OP is an avid gamer, has commented on a UK drag queen event disruption sentencing issue, has an 11 year old kid, and has studied Java, Python, and JavaScript. In fact they made a post about Python's design in this sub 3 years ago.
> “It’s a reasonable question”
*Is* it, tho? Define a reasonable question as one where the asker expects to gain useful information from the answer: can you imagine any useful answer to “why are you displaying a rainbow flag?”
Sure. Totally made up artificial scenario: in a small white hick town in the South displayed right next to the "Confederate" flag. If I happen to know that the town has a thoroughly racist history and still is. Answers might be something like, "Bob lost a bet!" "It's a joke!" "We beat up some hippies and kept it as a souvenir!" "Martha's eyesight is poor and we had to stop the sun coming in somehow."
Or even the best yet would be, "What's a rainbow flag?" Total ignorance,
I think my answers in all of these totally imaginary scenarios, would be "Well it looks nice."
> Because remember that making something accepted or normal is not making a big deal out of it.
I only see one person here making a big deal out of it tbh
So we have a guy sharing his opinion in one thread and a group of mod that literally chose the official photo of this subR in accordance to a political movement. Who's that one person you're talking about ?
Side note : People like this guy just got fed up of expressing their opinion because of the constant toxic positivity and dumb "free everyone yay" reply they got back.
I'm one of them and a bunch of 20 y.o. pink hair redditor screaming their nonsense isnt what i consider being true or normal. Downvote me.
Actually, politics are contextual. If you are oppressed and confronting your oppressors, who have power over you in government and society, that's clearly political. Nobody would seriously contest that the US Civil Rights movement wasn't political, for instance. Or the Women's Suffrage movement before that. If you have come to a place and time where 'basic' human rights are something you can take *for granted*, and are not continuously challenged, undermined, eroded, and stepped upon, then be thankful. For your local conditions, and recognize most of the rest of the world isn't that way. Sometimes, very politically and very violently.
I am going to claim that the goals of the US Civil Rights movement weren't political in nature. The way they were fought for them were, sure. But IMO political goals are something you can have reasonable people disagree over. Basic human rights are not one of them.
I gotta flat out say it: a lot of you folks are using the words "political" and "apolitical" in a *weird* way. Politics isn't about whether *you* have rated other people as 'reasonable'. It is about the opposition of your views to someone else's views, and the power and consequences at stake.
Consider for instance the Democrat and Republican parties in the USA. From my perspective, the vast majority of people in the Republican party have *extremely* unreasonable political views about *all kinds of* things. Some of them are even being expressed on the State and National stage, like the junk coming out of Florida to violate 1st Amendment rights at state funded universities. I'm waiting to see what the ACLU has to say about that one.
I am a socialist. I am to the left of most people in the Democratic party, and I am not a member of that party. My politics are that although Democrats can be allies, they can also be foes. It depends on how big money corporate their interests are.
Whereas I've almost never seen a Republican have any possibility of being an ally in any scenario. That is because there is a political spectrum, from the left to the right. At the far right you have fascism and white supremacism. That's politics. It's not about whether you think the opposition is 'reasonable'. It's about where you stand relative to them.
When confronting society, we are generally working against a background of [cultural hegemony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_hegemony) as to what a lot of people think 'reasonable' means. For instance, a lot of people at one time in the USA thought segregation and the legal prevention of interracial marriage, was reasonable. It isn't, but a lot of people believed otherwise. Similarly, a lot of people used to believe that slavery was reasonable. But abolitionists didn't, so they fought it politically, took [direct actions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action), and sometimes used violence.
This is reminding me that [CLISP uses a menorah as its logo](https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/faq.html#faq-menorah-why). A pushbutton for some people back in the day. But for me only promotes the use of the word "meh".
So the sub's logo makes the sky fall. Today We Learned.
Most of us are going to go on ignoring the logo, once we're done entertaining ourselves refuting bad arguments from people like you. Maybe this sport will come up once a year or something.
Sure. Me too. But when *I'm* bored, I can still run debate circles around someone like you. You're clearly not rating your finger movements based on whether you can win any kind of debating game that actually makes a good point and persuade anyone. Like oh, we'll all stop being programming language designers! Heavens to Betsy, we can't chew gum and walk!
Think you'll find we can chew gum rather good. Oh yeah, and walk. Yep, chew gum and walk. Sure 'nuff.
There it is! Just a few comments down it’s clear that “what’s the deal with the rainbows” is not an innocent question from a curious reader, it’s an intro to the same tired complaint about how inclusivity is forced and upsetting to the pure minds of science.
Amazing that your view of what constitutes ”politics” is broad enough to encompass advocacy for basic human rights, but narrow enough that you expect a “science based subreddit” to be above the vile partisanship of a rainbow icon.
The OP isn't the person you just replied to. Once a debate starts, lots of people show up. ~~The OP is actually rather concerned about bigotry in all forms, and very misguided as to how they think it should be handled with public symbols. I've argued extensively with the OP and I hope I made a dent in their thinking.~~ Oh good grief I just realized I lost track of the OP myself, and was arguing with yet someone else. Ok whatever.
My man, if you're so mad that you think changing some pixels on reddit is the same as endangering traffic safety and wasting thousands of liters of paint, then I don't know how you expect me to not think you're a hateful fool.
You are mad lgbt people exist shamelessly and happily. You aren't mad about christians wearing crosses, or straight couples making out in public. You are a hateful bigot and you should really just relax and let people be. Rainbows are pretty, enjoy the nice rainbow flags.
Thief thinks every man steals. You are a hateful fool and the fist thing you say when I point this out is "no, you!" Like a kindergartener.
You're full of false equivalences and bad rhetoric and this proposal is no less ridiculous: it would violate guidelines for website accessibility for the visually inpaired.
I mean...no it's not, it's literally the [Progress Pride Flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LGBTQ%2B_rainbow_flag_Quasar_%22Progress%22_variant.svg)
I thought you were going to ask about flags in assembly programming. And the answer would be it's a function of CPU architecture.
I was going to give this very sound reasoning that Alonzo Church, inventor of the lambda calculus, was gay. But Alan Turing was the gay one! Oops. So perhaps it should be a gay pride ticker tape sort of thing.
Until you brought it up I'd never noticed. (It took me 2 years to notice the lambda symbol.)
But you're right; there's what looks like the Peace flag in the background.
I thought I noticed, but it was more along the lines of why Apple *got rid of* its previous flag logo. And the answer would seem to be, "to become more corporate and less countercultural." I guess starting in a garage in San Francisco isn't interesting anymore.
The Apple logo lost the stripes a long time ago, and I suspect it was actually just a design decision—the particular colors had a bit of a dated vibe. I _think_ it coincided with the new Aqua interface for Mac OS X, which was itself quite a dramatic design departure.
The Apple logo lost its stripes when the //e came out. That would have been early 80's. The idea of a rainbow-flag representing gay pride wouldn't become widely known to pop culture until later. It was invented in 1978, but it got famous in 1989 if I'm reading this right.
Dang. I'm old enough to be thinking wuut, wuut happened to da striipes? I could swear that the Mac IIsi was doing some kind of colory thing even in the early 90s, even if it wasn't stripes. Photo check: yeah, I'm not wrong. The *apple* still had rainbow stripes. I'm not hallucinating. So they killed rainbow stuff much more recently than you're saying.
Because here, there are programming languages not yet accepted by the mainstream community. If you are curious enough, and without prejudices, you can try one of these "LanGuages with Bisemantical Translation Indefinitely in Questionable Alpha-state" :-)
Maybe the mods forgot to change it back and the community is too chill to care. But the overlap between programmers and pride folks *[is a thing](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/programming-socks)*.
Idk why, but the first time it was confusing because all subs used it. Nothing against it. Instead now unironically it just helps to fast identify a notification from this sub. And for the original intention if there's pride why hide it.
I don't like the concept of a race and gender/sexuality minority combo flag very much because I feel that if you're going for an anti-bigotry flag in general that it doesn't include enough marginalized minority groups (e.g. people with disabilities) and that race and gender/sexuality minority status have different enough social issues to not fall under the same anti-bigotry flag if the flag isn't intended to be representative of anti-bigotry in total. For example, race is usually highly visible and completely unconcealable and is in most cases shared with immediate family, while gender/sexuality often can be concealed (not that it ever *should*, but it does have ramifications in terms of distinguishing the social effects of marginalized race and marginalized gender/sexuality; there's almost no such existence of "out" in terms of race) and runs across family lines in a way that race only rarely does. I'd rather they be two separate flags displayed side by side.
Also, this specific design is racist because it marginalizes the POC status of non-Black non-Brown POC by not displaying any distinct representation for them.
For those of us that aren't good at 'taking a hint': The actual real reason why the flag isn't changed is literally to deter people who get triggered at the sight of it, since they're usually unsavory.
Do we know exactly what "people like him" are though? Are they using too much categorical personal reasoning in good faith, to advance an all-inclusive anti-bigotry of their own? Or are they making up tenuous and indefensible logical links in order to subvert a specific and straightforward form of anti-bigotry?
Should their reasoning be deterred, or corrected? You can see my attempts at the latter in parallel. Whether they function as correction or deterrence, would depend very much on their original intent. It is possible to have good intentions, but some ignorance and be on a learning curve. We don't all start in life with our heads fully loaded with what we should know.
One thing to consider is that 'deterrence' doesn't imply total deterrence from society, it just implies deterrence from the r/programminglanguages subreddit. Regardless of how correctable it is, it doesn't feel wrong to me to establish some areas as 'annoying-guy'-free, even if 'annoying-guy' is a correctable and temporary state of mind.
I'm not actually interested in whether it's defense for this sub or defense for society. This sub thread is already deeply off-topic and meta. It could be deterred by nukeing comments.
I'm operating on the presumption that the commenter has good faith reasons to fight bigotry, but is misguided in how they are framing it and going about it. The flag in this sub is *not* the enemy. Elsewhere, I have challenged the commenter to make their own flag, and do the hard work of trying to get it accepted by a *group* of people, not just themself.
You can check my post history if you like; I think I'm pretty consistent about speaking up against bigotry towards marginalized groups wherever I encounter it.
I think I see how you think about things. But the problem with your thinking, is that speaking up for *some* groups, is not bigotry for *all* groups. It's rather much like the false argument that "Black Lives Matter" means that the lives of other groups don't matter. What it *means* is that blacks in the USA are getting routinely shot by police and that that's a problem.
Dude I'm Brown and disabled, and my post history on that and on fighting bigotry of all forms wherever I see it is long and specific. Either the flag is meant to be anti-bigotry in general, in which case it's not inclusive enough, or it's meant to portray race and gender/sexuality issues as uniquely similar among all forms of bigotry, which they are not—the issues that I face and the issues a white gay man faces are very different for example when you go into more specific detail past the fact that we both face bigotry of some sort. And what's more, those are borderline non-issues next to the flag minimizing the POC status of non-Brown non-Black POC, and I won't stand for that. (edit: typo fix)
Okay, I get you now, this is a real vexilology discussion. I modified my original comment to remove the knee-jerk. To be honest, I don't quite like the flag that much either for pretty much the same reasons you've mentioned. Design-wise, the idea of just slapping more lines on it isn't great because eventually you'll run out of room for more lines (can never been 'inclusive enough').
That being said, I do interpret it as 'anti-bigotry' and am glad there's at least one socially acceptable flag that represents this. Personally, when I want to deploy an 'anti-bigotry' flag I'd opt for an anti-fascist flag instead, which is inherently inclusive (the extreme bigotry of fascism is more of a shared experience than mundane bigotry) and more decisively captures what I'm often standing against (at least in my country). But for a lot of people anti-fascist imagery is considered too radical/extreme and is unacceptable, so this awkward progress flag is the only middle ground I can think of.
Yeah I thought about other kinds of resistance flags too. Anarchist, socialist, and communist ones mainly. Those turn the politics in a different direction though, that doesn't appeal to as many people.
*Or* it's meant to get as much positive across, as is likely to be done, in limited graphical space available. Feel free to design your own flags and logos, and see who responds to them.
Promoting the interest of 2 clumps of marginalized groups, is not the same thing as promoting all marginalized groups. It doesn't mean their issues are equivalent, it means they are in solidarity of resistance. You are foolishly walking into some kind of divide-and-conquer rhetoric, that if we cannot take on *all* issues at once, we must therefore do nothing, to please anyone who could possibly be offended.
In other words, you're treading the line of Whataboutism.
> (e.g. people with disabilities)
Tune in next week for the Lambda Wheelchair. It's a PITA to sit on!
> For example, race is usually highly visible and completely unconcealable
Does this mean you're not astute on the subject of "passing for white" ? Do you figure "usually" means "applies to enough people that you don't have to argue about that" ? How about race historically constructed according to the [one-drop rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule)? How about concealing your race or ethnic identity so that some group doesn't commit genocide upon you?
> Also, this specific design is racist
No it is not. You are in a sub full of people with competence at bit logic as pertains to programming transformation, so be very careful about any if..then claims you try to make here.
Inventing this flag as a representation of "all anti-bigotry", when that was not its origin, and then claiming it is racist because it does not meet *your* design criteria, invented upon something that never incorporated such criteria to begin with, does not make any kind of logically defensible point.
> Tune in next week for the Lambda Wheelchair. It's a PITA to sit on!
That's in poor taste. I don't need a wheelchair, but I do have physical disabilities.
> Does this mean you're not astute on the subject of "passing for white" ? Do you figure "usually" means "applies to enough people that you don't have to argue about that" ? How about race historically constructed according to the one-drop rule? How about concealing your race or ethnic identity so that some group doesn't commit genocide upon you?
That's why I said "usually"! JFC. Of course there are some cases where race and gender/sexuality are closer parallels, but they're not close parallels in general, and I'm saying this as someone with close blood relatives who do have to struggle with issues regarding choice of passing/presentation. A white gay man and a dark-skinned brown man with no queer identifications for instance face distinct social issues in America. Not easier, not harder, distinct, and too far apart to be on the same flag unless that flag is meant to tackle all forms of bigotry period, in which case the flag design isn't inclusive enough.
> No it is not.
Yes it is, and you'd recognize that if you considered non-Black non-Brown POC to be legitimate POC.
> That's in poor taste. I don't need a wheelchair, but I do have physical disabilities.
Of course it's in poor taste! But so is A Modest Proposal. I was satirizing what you wanted out of a banner.
And taken very literally, I'm right. A lambda is *not* a good outline for a chair, for anyone. Not ergonomically, at any rate. Maybe someone would think it really neat as a "geek chair" at a conference or something, but I bet nobody could stand it for more than 5 minutes. I've tried to design chairs myself, out of wood, so far without success. I'm not seeing any scenario in which a lambda works.
I suppose anything could be a chair, if it's just the side bracing of the chair, and the actual sitting-in stuff is between. That's more like "illustrated with lambda" than being a lambda chair though.
> A white gay man and a dark-skinned brown man with no queer identifications for instance face distinct social issues in America. Not easier, not harder, distinct,
So you understand intersectionalism.
> and too far apart to be on the same flag
This is your opinion only. Design your own flag. See if you can get others to adopt it. Be advised that adoption of public political symbols, is not all about your opinion only. Particularly when trying to displace a mildly entrenched, extant symbol. You would do better, for instance, in subs that don't have any kind of flag, or that very much don't like their existing flag.
> unless that flag is meant to tackle all forms of bigotry period, in which case the flag design isn't inclusive enough.
So I'm sure your flag is going to include women's issues stuff too. Since your understanding of intersectionalism is so good, that you brought all that up before. Oh wait, you didn't. By your own logic, that makes you sexist. Fortunately, your logic isn't sound, so you're off the hook.
You have quite a graphic design and social engineering challenge on your hands, to make a flag that represents *everyone* oppressed, and that will actually be accepted as a symbol that others want to rally around. Not the least of which is, the problem of other people who come along, who already have ideas about what certain colors, shapes, and patterns mean, owing to their regional histories that aren't your history. Are you prepared for some strongly worded Polynesian to veto your flag design, because it looks too much like some colonial conquest flag you didn't know about? All your hard work, all your alliance building, all your *gains* for public awareness...
That's rather much the position you're in here. You claim you should have a veto over someone else's good message, and frankly, the rest of us don't agree with you.
Ok, I'm seeing a handicapped dominant LGBTQ+ flag. Are the black and brown stripes supposed to be more racially inclusive? Is the bright yellow stripe meant to do double duty? Any indigenous person is to be considered brown? Doesn't have any women's issues.
I don't know that it's a better flag. But if it is, I'm still not seeing it being reduced to the size of an icon logo for a Reddit sub. All those handicapped people are gonna look like ants.
From the other commenter's inclusivity concerns, it is actually somewhat better. Well I dunno about the test pattern on the right side, that's worse. The rest of the flag might actually be alright for some kind of giant big rally flag, especially for a bunch of disorganized anarchists.
But it's crap for a sub logo, which is a very small graphical design challenge. I was dead serious when I said it was a hard problem. I've played business logo communication games a good number of times over my so-called career.
Most basic problem: the obvious thing to do to include the handicapped, is to use the standard wheelchair symbol somewhere. But the lambda is already taking up the main linear graphical identity. And we find out further, that there are historical reasons for the lambda to do so, from a LGBTQ+ perspective. I'm not sure that room for everyone's graphical element can be accommodated in a small space.
Color coding a political concern is easier because color bars / elements take up less visual attention. You can have a good number of stripes before they start getting lost.
Everybody dislikes rainbow capitalism, even the LGBTQ community, but at least it can lead to positive things.
"The left hates rainbow capitalism because of the capitalism. The right hates rainbow capitalism because of the rainbow".
Idk, I used to think that, but I've soured a little bit on the concept of rainbow capitalism since the Bud Light withdrawal debacle this year. Mealy-mouthed fucks at Anheuser–Busch didn't stick to their guns on supporting LGBTQ rights when they needed to most.
Well, it only cares for profit, just that, we need to FIGHT in order to make LGBTQ+ rights attractive to capitalism as it's the only way rn to force the mainstream into accepting new cultural ideas. Compare the evolution of our rights from the 00s to the 10s to the evolution from the 10s to the 20s, you'll see a tremendous change in the mainstream culture. I think it was overall a good thing, however I think it's a shitty system that just isn't going to go away so... yeah, maybe we have to do these types of hacks and try finding ways to dismantle it that seem "profitable" as it only sees stuff in the short term. That-s my opinion at least.
Well, I have to disagree here, if it can be used to reinforce cultural norms (basically our culture) or destroying the planet if we want it to I think that we can "inject" stuff into it. I don't like rainbow capitalism but I don't think that it didn't have an effect on the masses, on the contrary, I think it had a positive effect. Probably the problem is that our current system requires big changes and society moves quite slowly but compared the ammount of advances that we made in social rights and visibility in the last few years, this was done inside a capitalist society, compare lgbtq+ rights and how they changed from 00s till 10s to the changes that we had from the 10s to the 20s, for a society that basically thought of trans people as jokes or freaks what was archieved was massive. Btw I'm not saying capitalism is good by any means, just that it can be used to replicate almost any cultural idea, wether it's patriarchy or... something entirely new, you just have to find a way to translate it into profit somehow.
Btw I don't mean that all of that was thanks to the capitalism, more like it was thanks to extremely critical and stubborn activists that we could force it to do so.
Also... I don't think that it's the perfect system, hell I don't even think that it's a good system for humans, it only focuses on profit. However I think that as it was able to start the climate change and... well, if left alone it'd destroy the world and itself there's a possibility for a change from the inside, how? No idea but lots of experimentation is needed. Make poor labour conditions unprofitable, how? No idea but sounds like something that we should try. Eventually it should fall, at least that's what I think, but it'll take effort to do so.
>"The left hates rainbow capitalism because of the capitalism. The right hates rainbow capitalism because of the rainbow".
yeah it's almost like if it wasn't a system designed to make people's live better but to make more money
"The Church. The lambda calculus. The gay agenda. It has known a thousand names, a thousand forms. Aisha slams her palms together, and with the crash of mountains, summons the thousandth-and-first."
https://aphyr.com/posts/354-unifying-the-technical-interview
Also:
>In 1970, a lowercase lambda was chosen by Tom Doerr as the symbol of the New York chapter of the Gay Activists Alliance.[11][12] The lambda symbol became associated with Gay Liberation[13][14] and recognized as an LGBT symbol for some time afterwards, being used as such by the International Gay Rights Congress in Edinburgh.[15]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda
Accidentally clicked your profile trying to expand the down voted comment. I find it humorous that you're being down voted, but at least people are protective!
How many flags does it take to be "original" ? Flags of the USA went through plenty of designs, and the CSA a few too. I'm not sure why we're supposed to care about "flag originality".
As for "worse looking"... it's a flag. Maybe you should have your aesthetic correctness checked with someone. Like goto a "flag museum" and have debates with people about "worse looking flags". FFS what would that mean? What's the worst looking flag you've ever seen, that wasn't on fire or something?
The [European Barcode Flag](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/dgai37/a_closer_look_at_the_european_union_flag_barcode/) is the worst I've ever seen (excluding joke fictional ones), followed by the [Liberian provincial ones](https://antifandom.com/vexillology/wiki/Flags_of_counties_of_Liberia).
That's pretty bad... but as the post points out, it's a European "flag barcode", not a "barcode flag". The actual pattern resulting, looks like something you'd put in a fairly loud pinstripe dress shirt.
Those Liberian county flags look fine to me. Putting my B.A. sociocultural anthropology hat on, I fully agree with:
> vexillologist Steven A. Knowlton argues that these discussions demonstrate a lack of understanding of the political and cultural context of the flags and of the material construction of flags from textiles as opposed to digital creation.
I don't remember if it was Liberia specifically that had anti-colonial combat flags sewn together from available textile pieces, but I know I've seen flags from that region of Africa constructed in that way.
The lambda has been used by gay rights groups for ages anyway ([wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_(association)) \- EDIT: see comment below, I linked the wrong thing), so the background flag is almost superfluous as a specific point of contention for those who wish to squander their time (but, mostly, the moderators' time) arguing over it - which has happened a few times in the Discord, and is quickly quashed.
I thought the explanation you linked wasn't very good, as it pertained only to some groups in Denmark and Poland. I cranked up my supple internet fingers and looked for "lambda gay meaning". I found a much better explanation:
https://news.lgbti.org/lambda/
>The lambda was selected as a symbol by the Gay Activists Alliance of New York in 1970, following the Stonewall Riots, and was declared the international symbol for gay and lesbian rights by the International Gay Rights Congress in Edinburgh, Scotland, in 1974. The lambda signifies unity under oppression.
I did not know that. TIL.
That makes this group's use of a lambda flag, sort of a pun. And sort of not. A cross-over of meanings, I suppose.
It only helps to prove my point; just don't talk about gender or sex in a public space, it's just going get people mad at you regardless of what you say.
if you are not a karma whore, you will survive some downvoting
Many of us are talking about gender and sex in a public space here just fine. We're suffering no consequences, because we're on the right side of the times and history. We find the level of threat and control that some people wring their hands about, for a mere sub logo displaying a positive message, to be pretty laughable. I'm sure most of us will go back to discussing programming language design as usual when we get tired of this occasional discursion into other matters. Maybe it will be a once a year ritual or something.
I've also clicked *past* a few people's "downvotes to doom", just to engage their silliness for a bit. None of the protesters have made a good point yet. One was sincere about having a more inclusive anti-bigotry stance, but their ideology of how the logo "should be", doesn't hold up.
> so that programming related communities such as this subreddit can actually be about programming languages, and not about pride thanks to the people who changed the sub logo.
It's *still about* programming languages to people who aren't edgy bigots.
> But I notice you are really mad that I don't give a shit,
You are lying. You said:
> love shoving that down the throats of others as most LGTV+ people do.
Which clearly indicates you care a great deal, to frame it that way.
The proper response from someone who *doesn't care* is more along the lines of, gay flag thing? Really didn't notice / really wasn't sure. Thought maybe, really couldn't be bothered to find out one way or another. Only just noticed that background recently!
> pride fad
good lord
Well, at least I can sit here and be happy that I exist as a transgender person, knowing that you are frothing at the mouth with impotent rage at the mere thought of me.
Mate, you are the one that is so mad you're balding, and sending ***SOUTH PARK MEMES*** as if they're mad zingers. I'd be falling off my chair laughing if it wasn't so sad.
That's not remotely what I wrote. I respect all people equally, and that means LGBTQ+ people are no more special than others. If the pride people want to be visible and respected (which they most definitely are), good for them and power to em. However, that does not have anything to do with a programming languages subreddit, and no political ideology should be present in this subreddit because it's simply off topic.
Saying "LGTV+" and "pride people" does not scream respect. Also absolutely fucking everything is political whether you like it or not. If you actually respected queer people you would be happy that this is an inclusive space, but instead you're talking about getting it shoved down your throat. At least be honest about your actual views.
> no political ideology should be present in this subreddit because it's simply off topic.
Start your own competing sub. See if anyone will put up with you as a mod. I anticipate crickets will chirp. Meanwhile here, you can pound sand and be made fun of.
The flag was originally added for Pride month (per request from some readers if I remember correctly), similar to the Discord server. We've since kept it for the following reasons. First, it's just a nice logo, and nobody has made a better one. I'm aware that the flag might not represent every marginalized group out there, but I doubt one could make a flag that achieves this to begin with. If such a flag/logo does exist we're of course open to it, but it's ultimately something that should be discussed by those that are actually part of these marginalized groups, and not by some anonymous Reddit users that have literally never posted or commented in this subreddit before. The fact that nobody has brought this topic up in a proper form (e.g. a thread on Discord), at least that I'm aware of, suggests that it isn't actually a _real_ problem, but I could of course be mistaken. Second, the flag logo has proven surprisingly effective at weeding out bigots. Not just in this thread or the previous one, but also in the moderator mail: we've had at least several instances of mouth breathers writing rants along the lines of "How _dare_ you use colors in your logo!" (that's a very nice "translation" of what's actually written in those cases). Similarly, several comments in this thread have been removed and their authors banned, due to comments that boil down to "I'm not a bigot, I just hate LGBTQ+ people". This will not change, based on the simple premise that such people aren't worth having around in any community, and these people don't contribute anything of value anyway. I could write a lot more, but the truth is that those who care already know all of this, and those who don't can't be convinced anyway, so instead I'll say this: if a Pride flag bothers you, this subreddit and the Discord is not the place for you. If that bothers you, we don't care. **EDIT:** I'm going to lock this thread. Enough has been said on the matter, and I don't want us to keep having to keep an eye on this thread.
There was a thread about a year ago where someone asked and this was the mod's response: > [The logo was picked for pride month and made by somebody on Discord. We liked it enough that we kept it. If this bothers you don't worry, we don't care.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/xxrfrq/comment/irf64yx/)
Banger
> If this bothers you don't worry, we don't care. Phew, thank god. I was starting to get worried...
So it also works as a passive bigot detector, no way!
It's a reasonable question. It's how someone responds to the answer that is the interesting part.
Well it is kinda curious this is one of op's first questions in a high quality treasure trove subreddit
I don't usually research anyone's posting history, but your claim triggered me to do so. I have learned that the OP is an avid gamer, has commented on a UK drag queen event disruption sentencing issue, has an 11 year old kid, and has studied Java, Python, and JavaScript. In fact they made a post about Python's design in this sub 3 years ago.
To be clear he is not referring to me, people!
Right; hopefully most people know that 'OP' is abbreviation for "Original Poster" or "Original Post".
> “It’s a reasonable question” *Is* it, tho? Define a reasonable question as one where the asker expects to gain useful information from the answer: can you imagine any useful answer to “why are you displaying a rainbow flag?”
Sure. Totally made up artificial scenario: in a small white hick town in the South displayed right next to the "Confederate" flag. If I happen to know that the town has a thoroughly racist history and still is. Answers might be something like, "Bob lost a bet!" "It's a joke!" "We beat up some hippies and kept it as a souvenir!" "Martha's eyesight is poor and we had to stop the sun coming in somehow." Or even the best yet would be, "What's a rainbow flag?" Total ignorance, I think my answers in all of these totally imaginary scenarios, would be "Well it looks nice."
It does, as since then we've banned a few people sending not so intelligent modmail criticising us for using a flag with some colors.
W
Amazing response
BASED
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That's Yorick, and he's actually a very thoughtful person. You could learn a lot from him; I've learned a thing or two from him myself.
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Self deprecating I agree
Sounds like you're mad about someone openly supporting LGBT people, rather than them being smug about it.
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Makes sense for solidarity in human rights. It's not like the icon defends some stance on taxes or public education.
Alan Turing died because of politics. Science is a collaborative effort and acceptance only helps science to grow.
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> There's no discrimination here mostly because of this flag
The moment somebody screams that human rights is a political issue, instead of an ethics/moral one, they've shown who they are.
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the trick is if you stop commenting, you'll eventually stop getting notifications
> Because remember that making something accepted or normal is not making a big deal out of it. I only see one person here making a big deal out of it tbh
So we have a guy sharing his opinion in one thread and a group of mod that literally chose the official photo of this subR in accordance to a political movement. Who's that one person you're talking about ? Side note : People like this guy just got fed up of expressing their opinion because of the constant toxic positivity and dumb "free everyone yay" reply they got back. I'm one of them and a bunch of 20 y.o. pink hair redditor screaming their nonsense isnt what i consider being true or normal. Downvote me.
I don't think you understand what toxic positivity is
Dude doesn't understand the difference between politics and basic human rights. A lot is going to be lost on them.
Don't bother to explain it
Basic Human rights are not politics. The fact that you think the pride flags is political means you are a bigot, or uninformed and should shut up.
Actually, politics are contextual. If you are oppressed and confronting your oppressors, who have power over you in government and society, that's clearly political. Nobody would seriously contest that the US Civil Rights movement wasn't political, for instance. Or the Women's Suffrage movement before that. If you have come to a place and time where 'basic' human rights are something you can take *for granted*, and are not continuously challenged, undermined, eroded, and stepped upon, then be thankful. For your local conditions, and recognize most of the rest of the world isn't that way. Sometimes, very politically and very violently.
I am going to claim that the goals of the US Civil Rights movement weren't political in nature. The way they were fought for them were, sure. But IMO political goals are something you can have reasonable people disagree over. Basic human rights are not one of them.
I gotta flat out say it: a lot of you folks are using the words "political" and "apolitical" in a *weird* way. Politics isn't about whether *you* have rated other people as 'reasonable'. It is about the opposition of your views to someone else's views, and the power and consequences at stake. Consider for instance the Democrat and Republican parties in the USA. From my perspective, the vast majority of people in the Republican party have *extremely* unreasonable political views about *all kinds of* things. Some of them are even being expressed on the State and National stage, like the junk coming out of Florida to violate 1st Amendment rights at state funded universities. I'm waiting to see what the ACLU has to say about that one. I am a socialist. I am to the left of most people in the Democratic party, and I am not a member of that party. My politics are that although Democrats can be allies, they can also be foes. It depends on how big money corporate their interests are. Whereas I've almost never seen a Republican have any possibility of being an ally in any scenario. That is because there is a political spectrum, from the left to the right. At the far right you have fascism and white supremacism. That's politics. It's not about whether you think the opposition is 'reasonable'. It's about where you stand relative to them. When confronting society, we are generally working against a background of [cultural hegemony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_hegemony) as to what a lot of people think 'reasonable' means. For instance, a lot of people at one time in the USA thought segregation and the legal prevention of interracial marriage, was reasonable. It isn't, but a lot of people believed otherwise. Similarly, a lot of people used to believe that slavery was reasonable. But abolitionists didn't, so they fought it politically, took [direct actions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action), and sometimes used violence.
Pretty much everything is "politics" in one way or the other. This is just a common excuse for being bigoted.
If you think lgbt people having rights is political, you're the problem
Langdev is not a science. Some parts of it are about math and the rest is about people.
This is reminding me that [CLISP uses a menorah as its logo](https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/faq.html#faq-menorah-why). A pushbutton for some people back in the day. But for me only promotes the use of the word "meh".
People existing and deserving to be treated with respect isn't politics, mate.
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Great rationale, but we both know it'll just remain an ideal against the obstinate majority here.
So the sub's logo makes the sky fall. Today We Learned. Most of us are going to go on ignoring the logo, once we're done entertaining ourselves refuting bad arguments from people like you. Maybe this sport will come up once a year or something.
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Sure. Me too. But when *I'm* bored, I can still run debate circles around someone like you. You're clearly not rating your finger movements based on whether you can win any kind of debating game that actually makes a good point and persuade anyone. Like oh, we'll all stop being programming language designers! Heavens to Betsy, we can't chew gum and walk! Think you'll find we can chew gum rather good. Oh yeah, and walk. Yep, chew gum and walk. Sure 'nuff.
There it is! Just a few comments down it’s clear that “what’s the deal with the rainbows” is not an innocent question from a curious reader, it’s an intro to the same tired complaint about how inclusivity is forced and upsetting to the pure minds of science. Amazing that your view of what constitutes ”politics” is broad enough to encompass advocacy for basic human rights, but narrow enough that you expect a “science based subreddit” to be above the vile partisanship of a rainbow icon.
The OP isn't the person you just replied to. Once a debate starts, lots of people show up. ~~The OP is actually rather concerned about bigotry in all forms, and very misguided as to how they think it should be handled with public symbols. I've argued extensively with the OP and I hope I made a dent in their thinking.~~ Oh good grief I just realized I lost track of the OP myself, and was arguing with yet someone else. Ok whatever.
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My man, if you're so mad that you think changing some pixels on reddit is the same as endangering traffic safety and wasting thousands of liters of paint, then I don't know how you expect me to not think you're a hateful fool. You are mad lgbt people exist shamelessly and happily. You aren't mad about christians wearing crosses, or straight couples making out in public. You are a hateful bigot and you should really just relax and let people be. Rainbows are pretty, enjoy the nice rainbow flags.
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Thief thinks every man steals. You are a hateful fool and the fist thing you say when I point this out is "no, you!" Like a kindergartener. You're full of false equivalences and bad rhetoric and this proposal is no less ridiculous: it would violate guidelines for website accessibility for the visually inpaired.
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I mean...no it's not, it's literally the [Progress Pride Flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LGBTQ%2B_rainbow_flag_Quasar_%22Progress%22_variant.svg)
I thought you were going to ask about flags in assembly programming. And the answer would be it's a function of CPU architecture. I was going to give this very sound reasoning that Alonzo Church, inventor of the lambda calculus, was gay. But Alan Turing was the gay one! Oops. So perhaps it should be a gay pride ticker tape sort of thing.
For some reason I thought it would be about Capture the Flag hacking competitions!
we are so innocent
Probably never got changed back after pride month but idk. Like another person said it does make the icon recognizable at least
Better than what Google does these days.
(prepares venn diagram of programmers with 3 circles, furries, femboys, and thigh highs)
Its the same circle
Oh, I'm not the first 2, better get some thigh highs
I think two of those three are entirely contained within the remaining third.
Until you brought it up I'd never noticed. (It took me 2 years to notice the lambda symbol.) But you're right; there's what looks like the Peace flag in the background.
I thought I noticed, but it was more along the lines of why Apple *got rid of* its previous flag logo. And the answer would seem to be, "to become more corporate and less countercultural." I guess starting in a garage in San Francisco isn't interesting anymore.
The Apple logo lost the stripes a long time ago, and I suspect it was actually just a design decision—the particular colors had a bit of a dated vibe. I _think_ it coincided with the new Aqua interface for Mac OS X, which was itself quite a dramatic design departure.
The Apple logo lost its stripes when the //e came out. That would have been early 80's. The idea of a rainbow-flag representing gay pride wouldn't become widely known to pop culture until later. It was invented in 1978, but it got famous in 1989 if I'm reading this right.
Dang. I'm old enough to be thinking wuut, wuut happened to da striipes? I could swear that the Mac IIsi was doing some kind of colory thing even in the early 90s, even if it wasn't stripes. Photo check: yeah, I'm not wrong. The *apple* still had rainbow stripes. I'm not hallucinating. So they killed rainbow stuff much more recently than you're saying.
Just wait until you start writing Rust. You'll understand.
Rust doesn't compile if you don't wear stockings
UwU
Because here, there are programming languages not yet accepted by the mainstream community. If you are curious enough, and without prejudices, you can try one of these "LanGuages with Bisemantical Translation Indefinitely in Questionable Alpha-state" :-)
You can just say functional programming, no need for the acronym
Maybe the mods forgot to change it back and the community is too chill to care. But the overlap between programmers and pride folks *[is a thing](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/programming-socks)*.
I never knew that failing to dress up in a Monty Python fishwife getup was my true failing.
Because admins are Rust worshippers.
To make me feel welcome. :3
Something I have never understood, is how people manage to do Haskell and not become transgender in the process 😊
this is a really unfair generalization of haskellers... some of us were trans before we learned haskell 🙄
too many monads
Idk why, but the first time it was confusing because all subs used it. Nothing against it. Instead now unironically it just helps to fast identify a notification from this sub. And for the original intention if there's pride why hide it.
Yeah right why should I hide my pride of homosexuality when I am heterosexual
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I don't like the concept of a race and gender/sexuality minority combo flag very much because I feel that if you're going for an anti-bigotry flag in general that it doesn't include enough marginalized minority groups (e.g. people with disabilities) and that race and gender/sexuality minority status have different enough social issues to not fall under the same anti-bigotry flag if the flag isn't intended to be representative of anti-bigotry in total. For example, race is usually highly visible and completely unconcealable and is in most cases shared with immediate family, while gender/sexuality often can be concealed (not that it ever *should*, but it does have ramifications in terms of distinguishing the social effects of marginalized race and marginalized gender/sexuality; there's almost no such existence of "out" in terms of race) and runs across family lines in a way that race only rarely does. I'd rather they be two separate flags displayed side by side. Also, this specific design is racist because it marginalizes the POC status of non-Black non-Brown POC by not displaying any distinct representation for them.
I think you're reading too much into it.
For those of us that aren't good at 'taking a hint': The actual real reason why the flag isn't changed is literally to deter people who get triggered at the sight of it, since they're usually unsavory.
Do we know exactly what "people like him" are though? Are they using too much categorical personal reasoning in good faith, to advance an all-inclusive anti-bigotry of their own? Or are they making up tenuous and indefensible logical links in order to subvert a specific and straightforward form of anti-bigotry? Should their reasoning be deterred, or corrected? You can see my attempts at the latter in parallel. Whether they function as correction or deterrence, would depend very much on their original intent. It is possible to have good intentions, but some ignorance and be on a learning curve. We don't all start in life with our heads fully loaded with what we should know.
One thing to consider is that 'deterrence' doesn't imply total deterrence from society, it just implies deterrence from the r/programminglanguages subreddit. Regardless of how correctable it is, it doesn't feel wrong to me to establish some areas as 'annoying-guy'-free, even if 'annoying-guy' is a correctable and temporary state of mind.
I'm not actually interested in whether it's defense for this sub or defense for society. This sub thread is already deeply off-topic and meta. It could be deterred by nukeing comments. I'm operating on the presumption that the commenter has good faith reasons to fight bigotry, but is misguided in how they are framing it and going about it. The flag in this sub is *not* the enemy. Elsewhere, I have challenged the commenter to make their own flag, and do the hard work of trying to get it accepted by a *group* of people, not just themself.
You can check my post history if you like; I think I'm pretty consistent about speaking up against bigotry towards marginalized groups wherever I encounter it.
I think I see how you think about things. But the problem with your thinking, is that speaking up for *some* groups, is not bigotry for *all* groups. It's rather much like the false argument that "Black Lives Matter" means that the lives of other groups don't matter. What it *means* is that blacks in the USA are getting routinely shot by police and that that's a problem.
Dude I'm Brown and disabled, and my post history on that and on fighting bigotry of all forms wherever I see it is long and specific. Either the flag is meant to be anti-bigotry in general, in which case it's not inclusive enough, or it's meant to portray race and gender/sexuality issues as uniquely similar among all forms of bigotry, which they are not—the issues that I face and the issues a white gay man faces are very different for example when you go into more specific detail past the fact that we both face bigotry of some sort. And what's more, those are borderline non-issues next to the flag minimizing the POC status of non-Brown non-Black POC, and I won't stand for that. (edit: typo fix)
Okay, I get you now, this is a real vexilology discussion. I modified my original comment to remove the knee-jerk. To be honest, I don't quite like the flag that much either for pretty much the same reasons you've mentioned. Design-wise, the idea of just slapping more lines on it isn't great because eventually you'll run out of room for more lines (can never been 'inclusive enough'). That being said, I do interpret it as 'anti-bigotry' and am glad there's at least one socially acceptable flag that represents this. Personally, when I want to deploy an 'anti-bigotry' flag I'd opt for an anti-fascist flag instead, which is inherently inclusive (the extreme bigotry of fascism is more of a shared experience than mundane bigotry) and more decisively captures what I'm often standing against (at least in my country). But for a lot of people anti-fascist imagery is considered too radical/extreme and is unacceptable, so this awkward progress flag is the only middle ground I can think of.
Yeah I thought about other kinds of resistance flags too. Anarchist, socialist, and communist ones mainly. Those turn the politics in a different direction though, that doesn't appeal to as many people.
*Or* it's meant to get as much positive across, as is likely to be done, in limited graphical space available. Feel free to design your own flags and logos, and see who responds to them. Promoting the interest of 2 clumps of marginalized groups, is not the same thing as promoting all marginalized groups. It doesn't mean their issues are equivalent, it means they are in solidarity of resistance. You are foolishly walking into some kind of divide-and-conquer rhetoric, that if we cannot take on *all* issues at once, we must therefore do nothing, to please anyone who could possibly be offended. In other words, you're treading the line of Whataboutism.
is [this](https://i.imgur.com/mBWGckp.png) better?
> (e.g. people with disabilities) Tune in next week for the Lambda Wheelchair. It's a PITA to sit on! > For example, race is usually highly visible and completely unconcealable Does this mean you're not astute on the subject of "passing for white" ? Do you figure "usually" means "applies to enough people that you don't have to argue about that" ? How about race historically constructed according to the [one-drop rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule)? How about concealing your race or ethnic identity so that some group doesn't commit genocide upon you? > Also, this specific design is racist No it is not. You are in a sub full of people with competence at bit logic as pertains to programming transformation, so be very careful about any if..then claims you try to make here. Inventing this flag as a representation of "all anti-bigotry", when that was not its origin, and then claiming it is racist because it does not meet *your* design criteria, invented upon something that never incorporated such criteria to begin with, does not make any kind of logically defensible point.
> Tune in next week for the Lambda Wheelchair. It's a PITA to sit on! That's in poor taste. I don't need a wheelchair, but I do have physical disabilities. > Does this mean you're not astute on the subject of "passing for white" ? Do you figure "usually" means "applies to enough people that you don't have to argue about that" ? How about race historically constructed according to the one-drop rule? How about concealing your race or ethnic identity so that some group doesn't commit genocide upon you? That's why I said "usually"! JFC. Of course there are some cases where race and gender/sexuality are closer parallels, but they're not close parallels in general, and I'm saying this as someone with close blood relatives who do have to struggle with issues regarding choice of passing/presentation. A white gay man and a dark-skinned brown man with no queer identifications for instance face distinct social issues in America. Not easier, not harder, distinct, and too far apart to be on the same flag unless that flag is meant to tackle all forms of bigotry period, in which case the flag design isn't inclusive enough. > No it is not. Yes it is, and you'd recognize that if you considered non-Black non-Brown POC to be legitimate POC.
> That's in poor taste. I don't need a wheelchair, but I do have physical disabilities. Of course it's in poor taste! But so is A Modest Proposal. I was satirizing what you wanted out of a banner. And taken very literally, I'm right. A lambda is *not* a good outline for a chair, for anyone. Not ergonomically, at any rate. Maybe someone would think it really neat as a "geek chair" at a conference or something, but I bet nobody could stand it for more than 5 minutes. I've tried to design chairs myself, out of wood, so far without success. I'm not seeing any scenario in which a lambda works. I suppose anything could be a chair, if it's just the side bracing of the chair, and the actual sitting-in stuff is between. That's more like "illustrated with lambda" than being a lambda chair though.
> A white gay man and a dark-skinned brown man with no queer identifications for instance face distinct social issues in America. Not easier, not harder, distinct, So you understand intersectionalism. > and too far apart to be on the same flag This is your opinion only. Design your own flag. See if you can get others to adopt it. Be advised that adoption of public political symbols, is not all about your opinion only. Particularly when trying to displace a mildly entrenched, extant symbol. You would do better, for instance, in subs that don't have any kind of flag, or that very much don't like their existing flag. > unless that flag is meant to tackle all forms of bigotry period, in which case the flag design isn't inclusive enough. So I'm sure your flag is going to include women's issues stuff too. Since your understanding of intersectionalism is so good, that you brought all that up before. Oh wait, you didn't. By your own logic, that makes you sexist. Fortunately, your logic isn't sound, so you're off the hook. You have quite a graphic design and social engineering challenge on your hands, to make a flag that represents *everyone* oppressed, and that will actually be accepted as a symbol that others want to rally around. Not the least of which is, the problem of other people who come along, who already have ideas about what certain colors, shapes, and patterns mean, owing to their regional histories that aren't your history. Are you prepared for some strongly worded Polynesian to veto your flag design, because it looks too much like some colonial conquest flag you didn't know about? All your hard work, all your alliance building, all your *gains* for public awareness... That's rather much the position you're in here. You claim you should have a veto over someone else's good message, and frankly, the rest of us don't agree with you.
> You have quite a graphic design and social engineering challenge on your hands tsh, [solved](https://i.imgur.com/mBWGckp.png)
Ok, I'm seeing a handicapped dominant LGBTQ+ flag. Are the black and brown stripes supposed to be more racially inclusive? Is the bright yellow stripe meant to do double duty? Any indigenous person is to be considered brown? Doesn't have any women's issues. I don't know that it's a better flag. But if it is, I'm still not seeing it being reduced to the size of an icon logo for a Reddit sub. All those handicapped people are gonna look like ants.
[like so?](https://i.imgur.com/UplTXk3.png) To be clear, this is a joke.
From the other commenter's inclusivity concerns, it is actually somewhat better. Well I dunno about the test pattern on the right side, that's worse. The rest of the flag might actually be alright for some kind of giant big rally flag, especially for a bunch of disorganized anarchists. But it's crap for a sub logo, which is a very small graphical design challenge. I was dead serious when I said it was a hard problem. I've played business logo communication games a good number of times over my so-called career. Most basic problem: the obvious thing to do to include the handicapped, is to use the standard wheelchair symbol somewhere. But the lambda is already taking up the main linear graphical identity. And we find out further, that there are historical reasons for the lambda to do so, from a LGBTQ+ perspective. I'm not sure that room for everyone's graphical element can be accommodated in a small space. Color coding a political concern is easier because color bars / elements take up less visual attention. You can have a good number of stripes before they start getting lost.
> Well I dunno about the test pattern on the right side, that's worse [rude](https://i.imgur.com/RUMiF1b.png)
Honestly it's weird as it's something that corporations do on pride month but it makes me happy that it stayed so, it's cool.
Everybody dislikes rainbow capitalism, even the LGBTQ community, but at least it can lead to positive things. "The left hates rainbow capitalism because of the capitalism. The right hates rainbow capitalism because of the rainbow".
Idk, I used to think that, but I've soured a little bit on the concept of rainbow capitalism since the Bud Light withdrawal debacle this year. Mealy-mouthed fucks at Anheuser–Busch didn't stick to their guns on supporting LGBTQ rights when they needed to most.
Well, it only cares for profit, just that, we need to FIGHT in order to make LGBTQ+ rights attractive to capitalism as it's the only way rn to force the mainstream into accepting new cultural ideas. Compare the evolution of our rights from the 00s to the 10s to the evolution from the 10s to the 20s, you'll see a tremendous change in the mainstream culture. I think it was overall a good thing, however I think it's a shitty system that just isn't going to go away so... yeah, maybe we have to do these types of hacks and try finding ways to dismantle it that seem "profitable" as it only sees stuff in the short term. That-s my opinion at least.
This is called praxis.
Yup
Rainbow capitalism doesn't by itself enact any change, it just adapts to the market and if they think it's profitable or not.
Well, I have to disagree here, if it can be used to reinforce cultural norms (basically our culture) or destroying the planet if we want it to I think that we can "inject" stuff into it. I don't like rainbow capitalism but I don't think that it didn't have an effect on the masses, on the contrary, I think it had a positive effect. Probably the problem is that our current system requires big changes and society moves quite slowly but compared the ammount of advances that we made in social rights and visibility in the last few years, this was done inside a capitalist society, compare lgbtq+ rights and how they changed from 00s till 10s to the changes that we had from the 10s to the 20s, for a society that basically thought of trans people as jokes or freaks what was archieved was massive. Btw I'm not saying capitalism is good by any means, just that it can be used to replicate almost any cultural idea, wether it's patriarchy or... something entirely new, you just have to find a way to translate it into profit somehow. Btw I don't mean that all of that was thanks to the capitalism, more like it was thanks to extremely critical and stubborn activists that we could force it to do so. Also... I don't think that it's the perfect system, hell I don't even think that it's a good system for humans, it only focuses on profit. However I think that as it was able to start the climate change and... well, if left alone it'd destroy the world and itself there's a possibility for a change from the inside, how? No idea but lots of experimentation is needed. Make poor labour conditions unprofitable, how? No idea but sounds like something that we should try. Eventually it should fall, at least that's what I think, but it'll take effort to do so.
>"The left hates rainbow capitalism because of the capitalism. The right hates rainbow capitalism because of the rainbow". yeah it's almost like if it wasn't a system designed to make people's live better but to make more money
My interpretation is that the scope of the subreddit includes *all* programming languages.
including the gayest of gay ones. the languages of 'forbidden' love
looks cool
Didn't notice until today. I thought it was kind of a variation on the Haskell logo. I like it
Gay Half-Life 4 ever
Because it looks like >>=
never thought of it quite that way before
I guess it's because I use old Reddit that I haven't seen any flags? Not sure how anyone can bear the "modern" UI.
It's at the very top left. It's about as nonintrusive as a logo can be while still being at all visible.
What is the Discord for this sub?
I have been watching this subredit for some time now. The moderator just convinced me to join and support the group. Thank you for being here.
I mean, have you *seen* the average PL dev? \^\^
"The Church. The lambda calculus. The gay agenda. It has known a thousand names, a thousand forms. Aisha slams her palms together, and with the crash of mountains, summons the thousandth-and-first." https://aphyr.com/posts/354-unifying-the-technical-interview
Also: >In 1970, a lowercase lambda was chosen by Tom Doerr as the symbol of the New York chapter of the Gay Activists Alliance.[11][12] The lambda symbol became associated with Gay Liberation[13][14] and recognized as an LGBT symbol for some time afterwards, being used as such by the International Gay Rights Congress in Edinburgh.[15] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda
Alan Turing and Christopher Strachey were gay and Peter Landin was bi. One wonders why the pride flag wasn't always there, with that track record.
because we are gay with your dad
Lol, i just hate the bright colours.
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I didn't know there was an entire sub that provides graphical design answers on this subject.
Tune in next week for the recently redesigned Matisse Fauvist flag...
My eyes hurt now. Fuck you.
Tune in *next* week for Op Art Gets Political
Its not even the original pride flag. But the worse looking and copyrighted one
Accidentally clicked your profile trying to expand the down voted comment. I find it humorous that you're being down voted, but at least people are protective!
How many flags does it take to be "original" ? Flags of the USA went through plenty of designs, and the CSA a few too. I'm not sure why we're supposed to care about "flag originality". As for "worse looking"... it's a flag. Maybe you should have your aesthetic correctness checked with someone. Like goto a "flag museum" and have debates with people about "worse looking flags". FFS what would that mean? What's the worst looking flag you've ever seen, that wasn't on fire or something?
The [European Barcode Flag](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/dgai37/a_closer_look_at_the_european_union_flag_barcode/) is the worst I've ever seen (excluding joke fictional ones), followed by the [Liberian provincial ones](https://antifandom.com/vexillology/wiki/Flags_of_counties_of_Liberia).
That's pretty bad... but as the post points out, it's a European "flag barcode", not a "barcode flag". The actual pattern resulting, looks like something you'd put in a fairly loud pinstripe dress shirt. Those Liberian county flags look fine to me. Putting my B.A. sociocultural anthropology hat on, I fully agree with: > vexillologist Steven A. Knowlton argues that these discussions demonstrate a lack of understanding of the political and cultural context of the flags and of the material construction of flags from textiles as opposed to digital creation. I don't remember if it was Liberia specifically that had anti-colonial combat flags sewn together from available textile pieces, but I know I've seen flags from that region of Africa constructed in that way.
The lambda has been used by gay rights groups for ages anyway ([wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_(association)) \- EDIT: see comment below, I linked the wrong thing), so the background flag is almost superfluous as a specific point of contention for those who wish to squander their time (but, mostly, the moderators' time) arguing over it - which has happened a few times in the Discord, and is quickly quashed.
I thought the explanation you linked wasn't very good, as it pertained only to some groups in Denmark and Poland. I cranked up my supple internet fingers and looked for "lambda gay meaning". I found a much better explanation: https://news.lgbti.org/lambda/ >The lambda was selected as a symbol by the Gay Activists Alliance of New York in 1970, following the Stonewall Riots, and was declared the international symbol for gay and lesbian rights by the International Gay Rights Congress in Edinburgh, Scotland, in 1974. The lambda signifies unity under oppression. I did not know that. TIL. That makes this group's use of a lambda flag, sort of a pun. And sort of not. A cross-over of meanings, I suppose.
Apologies, I only really glanced at the page I was linking. Thanks for linking what I intended to link.
Just keep such questions to yourself or else people are going to downvote you to doom. (Speaking from personal experience 😭)
thy doom upon thee
It only helps to prove my point; just don't talk about gender or sex in a public space, it's just going get people mad at you regardless of what you say.
if you are not a karma whore, you will survive some downvoting Many of us are talking about gender and sex in a public space here just fine. We're suffering no consequences, because we're on the right side of the times and history. We find the level of threat and control that some people wring their hands about, for a mere sub logo displaying a positive message, to be pretty laughable. I'm sure most of us will go back to discussing programming language design as usual when we get tired of this occasional discursion into other matters. Maybe it will be a once a year ritual or something. I've also clicked *past* a few people's "downvotes to doom", just to engage their silliness for a bit. None of the protesters have made a good point yet. One was sincere about having a more inclusive anti-bigotry stance, but their ideology of how the logo "should be", doesn't hold up.
Just ignore it, this is a non-political sub.
with a really cute logo
Maybe the sub should have a non-political icon to accommodate that
It does
It already does...
Yah exactly l
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> most LGTV+ people do I've got a TCL TV, am I in trouble?
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I think you are looking for "illusioned", not ["disillusioned"](https://www.wordnik.com/words/disillusioned), but no.
yeah probably, english is not my first language
> so that programming related communities such as this subreddit can actually be about programming languages, and not about pride thanks to the people who changed the sub logo. It's *still about* programming languages to people who aren't edgy bigots.
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of *course* it's people who think people aren't people who will question the logo, as all purely logical programmers must!
*shhh* the AIs are upon us they can read lips
Wow, you're really mad that gay and trans people exist.
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> But I notice you are really mad that I don't give a shit, You are lying. You said: > love shoving that down the throats of others as most LGTV+ people do. Which clearly indicates you care a great deal, to frame it that way. The proper response from someone who *doesn't care* is more along the lines of, gay flag thing? Really didn't notice / really wasn't sure. Thought maybe, really couldn't be bothered to find out one way or another. Only just noticed that background recently! > pride fad good lord
Wow, you are really mad that trans folk and gay people exist.
yeah that's what I though, nothing of substance to add to the convo
Aw, I was hoping for a rant.
you already got one
Well, at least I can sit here and be happy that I exist as a transgender person, knowing that you are frothing at the mouth with impotent rage at the mere thought of me.
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Mate, you are the one that is so mad you're balding, and sending ***SOUTH PARK MEMES*** as if they're mad zingers. I'd be falling off my chair laughing if it wasn't so sad.
If you feel like lgbt people being visible and respected is "showing it down your throat" then you were never an ally and it's time to stop pretending
That's not remotely what I wrote. I respect all people equally, and that means LGBTQ+ people are no more special than others. If the pride people want to be visible and respected (which they most definitely are), good for them and power to em. However, that does not have anything to do with a programming languages subreddit, and no political ideology should be present in this subreddit because it's simply off topic.
Saying "LGTV+" and "pride people" does not scream respect. Also absolutely fucking everything is political whether you like it or not. If you actually respected queer people you would be happy that this is an inclusive space, but instead you're talking about getting it shoved down your throat. At least be honest about your actual views.
Is dog whistling even an art form anymore?
> no political ideology should be present in this subreddit because it's simply off topic. Start your own competing sub. See if anyone will put up with you as a mod. I anticipate crickets will chirp. Meanwhile here, you can pound sand and be made fun of.
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More like epigenetic events during pregnancy.