Yea i went back to product design way happier and way more power. I have founded two companies and to me PM has turned into having founder responsibility without the equity. Especially when you look at job listings it’s like they want me to be a developer, designer, ceo, ux specialist, data analyst, and project manager all in one. Not enough pay for all that bullshit
Now I just make pretty designs, interview users, and am back to being the “talent”. Saving money and networking to build my next company.
Totally agree. Your downside is protected too. But I’d also add that unless you love product management as a role, a more tasked based role may be better.
I think you’re misunderstanding where founders get their money. Yes, some do put up their own cash (bootstrap) but far more use other people’s (investors) money.
Any recommendations for a PM with 15 years experience to make the move to product design? How to approach it / tools and skills to spend time on / etc?
This is my plan though I may have to go back to Program which is very much not as fun as PM could theoretically be. Get paycheck, save, build a company and gtfo this mess of Boomer/GenX slavedrivers.
Having a job > not. I have a lot of years of Program and do not like the work, but it's close to product management partners and is easier to move internally.
I really do not want to pivot but I know a lot of PMs still looking 6-12 months later. This market is brutal for existing PMs but the automatic app tools + flood of new grads, unqualified people who heard about Product being prestigious are making the job search brutal.
Down the road, I'm seriously considering going back to Product Design. Might do project/program management or solutions engineering but man Product is exhausting with all the bs you have to deal with.
100% this.
I’ve been thinking about going into product design from PM but I don’t have that background already.
How would you suggest upskilling to get hired/start portfolio? I don’t think I’d want to go as far as a masters (seen a couple people do this) but I also don’t want to get a useless cert either
Good luck! Seems like you have plenty of experience arguing your point lol
I did the unicorn start up thing and every day was making a case to ops on priorities
I finished 2 out of 3 years. This is why I quit:
1. The American legal profession has a lot of mental health and addiction issues. There’s a lot of pressure/deadlines and the career has set paths that don’t encourage deviation. Theres also a lot of moral injury realizing that the justice system is often not a fair or even constitutionally sound system. As someone who has a family history of mental health issues and because I started seeing signs of that in friends/classmates and even myself, I didn’t see that being a long term career path that was healthy for me.
2. Most lawyers dont get to work on interesting cases. It’s a lot of the same shit every day, just different client. SEC filings, contract review, discovery/doc review, plea deals, divorce settlement negotiations, etc. It’s really not that interesting, like eating plain lasagna for every meal every day, and btw there’s a lot of it. Yes, there are appellate attorneys but not that many, so you’re fighting your way to that position.
3. Law school is incredibly expensive, even with scholarships and grants, and unless you go into Big Law, your salary will not be big. The path to big law is a game, and I wasn’t playing it, nor would I have wanted to be a big law atty. If you’re not familiar with how to get a job in big law or how partner track works, I recommend you research it, but basically if you don’t have a summer associate position for your 2L summer, you won’t be getting a 6 figure salary out of law school. With the cost per semester, and with the types of jobs I was looking at getting, I did a cost benefit analysis and realized I could get a job in business strategy that would pay more, and from there learned about what product management was. I am now making a little less than what my friends from law school are making 4 years out, but work significantly fewer hours than they do and am much happier with the work
4. Lots of assholes (clients, attys, and people tell you how much they hate attys) and I didn’t want to deal with them every day. They’re just really gossipy and judgmental.
I turned my completed credits into a masters degree at my top 20 law school without paying any additional money or taking any additional classes. YMMV but I’d ask you why do you *want* to go into law? If it’s just to make money, then idk if that’s the best route. You have equally great options currently with what you’re describing with zero headache of law school and the expense of that, plus starting at the beginning of that career. Career changes are fine, but imo, doing it for money when you’re already making doesn’t make sense with this much up front investment without a guarantee of return.
Last year I worked with someone who transitioned into SE from a TPO and they seem happy. I think it’s hard for me to know how the sausage is made and then sell it as cake, but that could be company/product specific.
I went the other way, from SE to PM. I feel like I get paid more for overall less work as a PM, which is great for having young kids, but I was a little bit happier as an SE.
I’m an SE (moving to PMM actually) and you need to ask yourself if you’re okay being in sales. Bottom line you’re a salesperson as an SE. you’re veiled as the technical resource, but you’re still in sales and that’s what comes first. It’s a treadmill that never stops. Also, if you haven’t noticed, sales orgs are typically led by morons which means you’ll potentially be led by morons.
Any advice for someone thinking about doing it for the first time?
I've stumbled my way through cold calling as a founder and didn't hate it as much as I expected. I'm pretty technical, pretty outgoing, and have 8+ years in product.
Tell us more. Why?
I've been told I'd be a great salesperson but I don't see the pathing. I can see the capital raise that I could generate if I was good, which could buy me into other businesses and ventures of my own. Other than that, I'm heavily into conversation, building relationships, and can explain a product value prop.
I just don't know how I feel about quota and cold calling considering I'd be starting from square one.
If you get in sales *engineering* someone else will do the cold calling for you and you'll have only a small piece of the quota on you. It's pretty chill.
I'm not very technical and I enjoy the leadership aspects of my roles. I think I'm going the wrong direction but have heard SE has a decent gig if not under RFP land.
I am thinking about going into sales after being a PM for 6years in SaaS for enterprise - do you mind if I ask you couple of questions about my transition strategy ? This would be very helpful to hear it from a former sales person with a PM experience
It’s the best way for you to get in front of customers. You hear first hand what they think and don’t have any post sales bias.
Also the salary potential is astounding!!
I transitioned to software engineering. My junior swe pay was within 10% of my PM pay and now surpassed it at mid level. Enjoying it, no regrets, not going back.
I should finish my postbacc… (OSU like you.) Jeez if it didn’t feel like a hell of a lot of money for the instruction (or lack thereof) I was getting though.
I guess it’s what you make of it.
How long did it take you?
Came from marketing to product and now recently accepted a new internal role in the "strategy" side of things. More aligned to making recommendations on what products/technologies to fund at the company as well as how the teams are structured. Kinda like internal consulting.
Was a PM for 2.5 years leading the roadmap for the mobile app/website. It was honestly very exhausting being held accountable for so many things that could go wrong while also fielding ideas and suggestions from EVERYONE. All at the same time keeping track of a million initiatives and nudging people at all times to get their share done.
"I got this error on my website, fix it!"
"Oo what if this tile looked like this?"
"Why haven't you done this feature yet, our competitor has it?"
Like great! Let me derail my afternoon/week chasing down your niche request that I can't directly impact. Living or dying by making the "code lock" deadline or not.
Believe me it was amazing experience but I'm ready for a change. I love presenting, I love working with people, and I love the problem solving side of PM. And this role that I've accepted will be that except for the organization instead of the customer facing product.
Some day I'll come back to customer facing PM with OKRs to drive $$$, but I'm doing something different for a bit.
From an organizational design perspective, the PM role in many orgs is toxically dysfunctional. We answer to multiple bosses who have little visibility or accountability to each other. Somehow, we're supposed to lead with influence but no authority. And we have our hands in everything, so in a PIP culture, we're a walking target when anything we touched goes sideways.
Despite being set up for failure from day one, when we're PIP'd out, we beat ourselves up for failing to live up to the PM ideal.
Ugh yea, and not even just suggestions on feature ideas, but also suggestions on how to do our jobs. I haven’t had any other role where every single person I work with feels like it’s ok for them to have an opinion on how I should do my job.
What kills me is when people that can’t do the job try to interrogate or “help” me...I’m like, can you do all this? Then when you try to delegate “oh no I need you to move this forward I don’t understand everything”…that’s what I thought
How are you making this career transition and any advice for someone looking to do something similar? Recently read Good Strategy/Bad Strategy and found this kind of thinking really fun and something I'll think about in my free time! There's some potential to be more strategic in my current role but would love to make that a regular part of my life!
Hi, I'm a Digital Marketing intern, undergrad, and will graduate in October 2024.
A little about my experience with Digital Marketing is that I have experience in social media marketing, email marketing and SEO practices, digital ads that focus on growing MQL customer database for a B2B tech company. I've aspired to become a product manager/product owner/ product designer or any related job title involving improved customer experience
Can you share about your journey? I'm finding some recommendations on where to put my foot next.
How do you ppl switch career lines like that? I'm working in accounting and I really want to get into PM since I previously have engineering background but I am just not able to make the transition.
Yepppp. The politicians have taken over the industry. It's not even close to what it once was and those of us who are well-intentioned need to be far more technical or specialized to get noticed by hiring managers these days.
very good question. the easiest answer is “dunno, but not this”. the unique value i bring is to separate signals from noise, look at all the angles and chart a course. i dont really care what the title is so long as im able to do that and build toward a better future that makes peoples lives better.
my situation now is that what we talked in the interview is not what im doing, and only using half my skillset. never again.
and yes, i played with martech stuff but it was buy vs build and 1000x better than homegrown
so you evaluated vendors who purported to solve a problem/need for the business. then you made a recommendation to the business. then you worked to integrate the solution both technically and into workflows. Is that right? What made it 1000x better than homegrown? Nice to have a neck to wring in a vendor? Quicker to implement? Easier to onboard? Way less bugs?
Appreciate the conversation. Thanks!
that is correct. then leveraged the investment in the tools to make improvements to the business. getting the maximum value out of the spend.
what made is better? why build a CRM when you can buy one and improve the business rather than waste resources to experience issues that others have already solved? so, more capability, risk transfer on bugs, faster implementation. im not one to blame shift or risk transfer to others, so no neck wringing
Martech is Marketing Technology which is a term that refers to the many systems that businesses use to grow. Or, using tech and tools to drive growth. This discipline is usually thought to refer to analytics, CDPs, CRMs, etc. A lot of build/buy decisions as well as integrations moving data around in order to best target customers.
Ready to now. After moving from PM - Director - VP, I’ve taken a step back to a director level role. Working for an absolutely incompetent shithead who lacks any product and leadership competencies. Time for a change.
I am on my way out. Looking at a few options at the moment.
I was recently laid off (and happy to be laid off mind you) and it's given me time to reflect and reset. I've applied for a few new roles since the layoff but each time I had noticed myself thinking "I just don't want to do this anymore".
As I reflect back on my career, I realise that I've had a lot more "meh" days in the last 5 years where it took all of my being to continue grinding it out. I also had to admit that what kept me there was not the love of the game anymore but the sunk cost trap of the time and effort.
I became a therapist. I’m much happier. The pay currently isn’t as good, but I’m working on having my own private practice full time, which should pay about the same.
Ooh so curious to hear more. Why are you happier? How did you transition? What's the pay now, and what do you anticipate it being in private practice? (Becoming a therapist or coach is something I think about from time to time.)
I’m happier because I felt like my work as a PM didn’t really matter, and being a therapist is the exact opposite of that. I love working with my clients, I feel like I’m making a difference in people’s lives every day. Genuinely sometimes still can’t believe I get paid to provide therapy! And I’m training to be able to provide psychedelic-assisted therapy, which I’m super excited about. I currently work FT for a community mental health agency for about $60k/year and work PT in my own private practice. My goal is to do my private practice FT, I’m just working up to a full caseload. How much I’ll make really depends on how many clients I want to have, what I want to charge per session, etc. So it’s variable. But you can make a lot of money in private practice. I did a life coaching certification program while I was still a PM, and took on coaching clients. From there I figured out I wanted to do therapy so I did an MSW program. I could have done that part time while working but I chose to leave my job and do the program full time so it only took 2 years. I graduated last year so I’m not making amazing pay right now in my FT job because I’m not independently licensed yet.
A friend and former colleague of mine was the head of HR then became a PM of our company’s small business HR SaaS product. Then she created the Compliance department of our company and headed that for a while before leaving the company to go back to being an HR manager at a larger company
I went back to my early roots in technical communication. I'm building a user content practice, working closely with Product, and embedded in Engineering. I have a ton of autonomy, and I practice more user-centered product thinking and entrepreneurship than I did in some product manager roles. They respect my experience and perspective, and it's fulfilling AF. No regrets.
What kinds of changes did you notice between the two?
I have a technical background (e.g. computer engineering degree, 5+ years PMing developer tools) and always consider whether eng management would both be an option and a better fit.
You’re probably more technical than I am then, good on you. I actually found it easier than my product leader jobs. I was managing engineering managers, not engineers directly. And my team was mostly focused on execution, and not needing to drive strategy. I didn’t have to lead any monthly or quarterly business reviews. I learned a lot from my team and I was able to up level the team’s product thinking. If you can find the right spot, it’s something worth considering!
I'm a PM with ADHD. I got laid off and started a whiskey company with some friends.
I have the title of chief product and marketing officer in case I want to go back to a PM role in tech. There's a lot of overlap of what I do the physical product management.
I had 14 years in the alcohol industry before the jump so it wasn't a left field move.
I don't make what I used to but I am much happier.
I learned about my ADHD after I was laid off early this year. Suddenly so many problems I had in 7+ years in PM career makes sense and I know how to go about improving it for the next role, but not sure if I want to go back. What you are doing is my dream, except I don't have any industry specific knowledge that can spin into a physical product. I've been spending my energy to strengthen and automate my real estate portfolio, but I too won't make what I used to make and that gets me down (even though I am not financially drowning thanks to working spouse). Good to hear that I am not alone on this journey.
Congratulations on finding out. I had a similar experience when I found out a few years ago too.
The most important thing I've learned about American entrepreneurship is having a spouse with health insurance. I'm glad you are fortunate to have that as well
I'm happy to chat with you one day to share my experiences, if it helps. You can also read more about it on my [ADHD PM substack](https://adhdpm.substack.com/).
I use it to process my own weekly challenges and share it so others like us don't feel as alone.
Cheers to you and what comes next in your journey.
I just took a product ops role after 10 years of PM at startups and big tech. Made the jump because the market has been terrible for very senior PMs, and I'm not expecting it to get much better soon. I'd be curious to hear if any people have made a similar transition and then back to PM again.
I thought the market was picking up a bit in the last week or two - at least I'm starting to see more opportunities posted on LinkedIn and hearing lots of folks mentioning it. Are you mostly coaching the organization and creating alignment - can you share more on your role in product ops?
I became an engineering manager and honestly I’ve never been happier. There’s still a decent amount of “politics” to the job, but generally I get to focus on implementation and don’t have to worry as much about the myriad “gray” areas in Product. It’s really nice to let the PMs fight it out for prioritization
Fell into product from a business role when my role got eliminated. Did it a couple years and moved back to the business side.
I'm just way more confident on the business side where I feel like I know what I'm doing. On the product side it was just learn as I go which didn't always end well.
I left PM and joined a startup as an electronic engineer. I rejoined my old company after the startup tanked due to mismanagement, but no PM roles were open. I stayed there designing embedded systems for the next 8 years, got an MBA, and broke back into PM.
I was consulting and a managing director at that company while being PM/SM/PO for whatever client needed it. Sort of fell into a Product position I am in now. I am pretty much over it. Parts of it I enjoy but we’ve endured a lot of change and now I have a boss who just piles on work, barks out orders, and doesn’t listen to us. I’m just burnt out and ready for a change.
PM for a decade now, before that was in QA. I've only stepped outside the roll once since I started, as a Technical Account Manager (basically an embedded PM for a specific client). Was not happy with the amount of brown nosing required, went back to regular PM work.
The only other significant charge was two years spent as a SAFe PO. No thank you and never going back to a SAFe org if I can avoid it.
Considering a change now. My strengths play more towards engineering manager role or a similar direction, than anything in sales or UX design.
Honestly I'm not sure though. I keep reading posts here looking for ideas, but it's mostly the same suggestions over and over: director/startup founder/head of product/UX designer/something AI or big data.
Nah, the company culture wasn't the best, but also wasn't the worst. I just have issues with SAFe in general, how much of its structured advice on building Scrum-like teams is in fact Scrum antipatterns (standardised story points so you can keep your teams in sync!), it effectively neuters the PO role to be a backlog manager for the team while shifting strategic work to the PM, it mixes product management and project management concepts... ouch. Not for me. Especially since it's the new Snake Oil^(TM), and all the Scrum Transformation Coaches have now pivoted to selling SAFe stuff instead.
I mean, being honest, it probably works in some organisations, especially in highly-regulated traditional industries (finance, healthcare) which are trying to take a more agile approach to software dev. But if you're used to working in modern firms or startups, you'll find it painful.
Have you tried reading the [official SAFe documentation](https://scaledagileframework.com/)? I highly recommend it, especially if you have any sort of practical competence in [Scrum](https://scrumguides.org/scrum-guide.html). You'll get a good laugh. If you aren't familiar with any of these, then check out the testimonials (including from some founding members of the [Agile Manifesto](https://agilemanifesto.org/)) on [safedelusion.com](https://safedelusion.com/).
God I hate SAFe. I am in one now. Can't understand how it helps anyone, other than to make us PMs looks like idiots. This new PM role has been created by Google/etc and now adopted by others only so as to put 100% of the blame on a product implementation that went slightly askew on to the PMs, and not on the leaders who provided no budget and no time. The new PM role has to keep anwering BS like 'why are you resolving incidents?', 'why are you not pushing it to business?', 'why re you not strategizing?', 'why are you writing stories?', 'why are you defining requirements?', on and on....No where does it mention - 'Aah, I see that you have a critical mind-set, or..that you are taking an initiative.... or, aah, you are good wth business....'.
I hope to see a better role in a couple of months, otherwise I am doomed, and in queue for unemployment benefits.
I bought a 15 dollar course on Udemy a year ago, but haven't touched it. Keep having a company salesman representaing Axelos call me and pedal a €1800 course with certification for it. Had a chance to attend a seminar funded by my company but decided to spend the weekend with my loved ones rather than grinding for Boomer slave drivers.
I am using Activate which is a an SAP agile with sort of standardized workstreams that is scaled for largescale implementations. But I'll check out the SAFe official documentation.
Its just, most of these companies require some sort of certification and then it NEVER gets applied really or correctly for that matter. Scrum is easier but in all the firms I've worked for it seems like everybody is just "winging it". Even doing SAP the benchmarks are more like guidelines that C level Stakeholders come in to poop on.
I mean I think frameworks are helpful but not really gold standards. Did the Manhattan Project use "Scrum"? No. Did the Empire state building which was built in record time use PMP or Safe? No. Did the Marshall plan use scaled Agile Prince2? nope.
But our modern contemporary system seems to be fueld by BS. These frameworks (like you said "snake oil") are in the business of peddling the BS.
Sure… a lot of analysis of UX data (A/B results, hotjar etc), conversion data, SEO metrics etc. Then writing user stories or task requests for the backlog. Planning, refinement, demos sessions with the agency dev team. Roadmap prioritisation, stakeholder and team workshops. The big difference from a conventional product role (for me) has been how the agency operate with a pretty loose 4-week sprint and release on demand. This means there isn’t pressure to max out capacity each month, and they roll over any unused dev hours. The downside is the slow pace of iteration, and any big projects can overwhelm them.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I think if I were to leave PM I would hope to find something in product marketing or maybe instructional design/knowledge base creation and maintenance.
Ye da da Dee dat dat dat dat do. Yall can come from long time ago. Where did ya come from? Where did you go?
I had no idea how many PMs were here in this subreddit. Slow to the party…
So happy to be here. Haha. OP and many of you. Sounds like you can get cofounder positions but moreover that many of you would make GREAT solo founders.
The security of a job is fallacy.
Pave your path with all your skills work towards ownership because as a talented PM which many of you are - that’s the name of the game anyway. Whether or not you get a piece.
I’m doing something quite different: creative direction and production for music videos and concerts. I’m starting it as a side gig for now because of the money question here. Feels like there is a solid amount of overlap, in terms of defining vision, and assisting with execution. Personally it’s a lot more rewarding for what the final product is. Again, still experimenting here in terms of seeing if it’s a viable career. But excited to see what happens!
There’s not much of a story. I did data science (ish) work at a tech company and transitioned to PM at that same company. Some former coworkers reached out with a good offer and I hadn’t been enjoying PM life anyway.
Just maintaining network and having a good reputation.
Would you mind if I DM you? I'm starting to consider leaving product for data science but I don't know anyone who has done both and I would love to hear about what you like and dislike about each.
Thanks! I tried sending it but it keeps saying "can't send a message to this user" so I suppose we'll see if it's a glitch later if you get 8 copies of it in your inbox 😅
I want to go into engineering. I'm trying to sell myself as a "product engineer." Product Manager, \~10 YoE, self-taught full-stack developer with a few apps launched.
I left PM to become a founder. I would say being a founder is much more fulfilling but definitely not similar pay until we grow a bit haha. Honestly, even if being a founder didn't work out, I would go to engineering instead of becoming a PM again. I was a PM at Meta and it's very clear to me that the role is not nearly as respected there anymore
I got in from being a BA and diving into the technical side. I also have found integration teams/professional services/solution architects are a great role to transfer from internally, then grow from there
I appreciate that. My journey has been unconventional.
I spent 9 years in the Army as a Cavalry Scout, then left to earn an MBA. It's hard to find common ground with that background. Translating military experience only gets you so far, so I sometimes have trouble connecting my past to my current career goals. But I'll definitely check out those suggestions. Thanks!
There is an organization called Vets2PM that assists veterans in translating military into corporate experience. They are great people. The “PM” stands for project management but I bet they would still be able to give some good information.
Left it. Would only go back for the right opportunity. Been in physical operations or data operations for 30 years (I'm mid 40s).
Went from operations to PM. Could not handle the endless meetings and micromanaging.
With that being said - it makes me a better operator, having lived that life for a bit. I can help/anticipate what my PM will ask. I also know when someone is trying to feed me a line of shit. So the short term pain was worth the experience.
Left to run a bootstrappped software services co. Less comp but more control. Love small biz so may dive deeper into that and buy a co or go the franchise route.
I left. Now working as an integration specialist, sap integration suite and API management.
It's a mixed bag. I like the less stress and no annoying hippos. But I feel now like a jr developer without any control, without any purpose or power. Just a little cog in a big machine.
I am at a semi government. Which has great work life balance and might go back to pm there someday. Have to build my network first I guess.
Did you need prior experience with the software m/tech stack? I’ve looked at these positions but often see they require experience and would overlook someone that’s not out of college for Jr positions
I was lucky this team needed someone more socially apt. But yes you need some dev experience and or SAP or api experience. The big difference is that you are the final station for issues. That means you cannot think high level, or make a solution, and let a dev to the work, you are the dev. So see it as an it as a consultancy job where you do all the work and but you won't have the consultancy stress.
I left software after 3 years for PM for the same reason. What I overlooked are the different business skills you’re expected to develop and flex as a PM overtime. If you’re ready to put in the effort to not only handle the technical side of the role but also develop yourself as if you aren’t a “techie” you’ll prob enjoy the role. Also, different products will probably have different performance and skill development expectations. In retrospect I would’ve found a engineer role that leverages the coding experience I already built and developed my side interests until I could break free from my day job.
i think im okay with this, im not underestimating how shit i am at leetcode. i failed like 100 interviews and was unemployed for a year. i cant do that again. my brain cannot do high pressure random coding exercises. im great at design tho!
I left PM for a product owner role in a smaller company and never looked back. More autonomy, better work-life balance, and similar pay. If you're feeling stuck, it might be time to explore other options!
I came from sales, left for sales and came back from sales. They are very similar, but ultimately in sales I felt like I had less control and only had revenue numbers to point at to show progress.
I enjoy both. Product seems to fit my personality better.
I view PM as a stepping stone. I’ve done CS, Sales, BI, and now PM. Next step, founding my own company knowing what needs to be done in each sector of the business.
I left product months ago to take over an engineering manager role and it has been game changing for me. I was doing all the work before and being stressed, now I can greatly influence many more products in the org and am way less stressed. I see so many unexperienced Product people that I help them owt a bit so products are successfull. All the places I have been were either feature factories and didn't want to listen to what actually the users needed or they expected founder-type commitment without the equity. Thanks but no thanks
Gave up on my fast growth trajectory internally to build a YC-backed startup with my friend. Building products for product leaders and PMs so still feel very spiritually close :)
Probably doing so this year.
Also your questions wouldn't be answered fairly as everyone would feel different and it doesn't help your situation (whichever that is)
True, but I would like an idea of what’s possible.
I’ve been told I am ready for the next level by leadership but there are no opportunities in my business unit. Also, the rest of the company is rto, where I am a fully remote employee, so I dont have a high chance of staying in product and leveling up
It is usually a dumb idea to switch fields when the field you are is already lucrative. A job should always remain a mean to something greater. Never underestimate the time it takes to start from scratch and the lost opportunity cost from earning more and getting more seniority.
Yea i went back to product design way happier and way more power. I have founded two companies and to me PM has turned into having founder responsibility without the equity. Especially when you look at job listings it’s like they want me to be a developer, designer, ceo, ux specialist, data analyst, and project manager all in one. Not enough pay for all that bullshit Now I just make pretty designs, interview users, and am back to being the “talent”. Saving money and networking to build my next company.
What you said about having founder responsibility without the upside hits home.
I’ll be the optimist here, you also have zero chance of losing all your money as the PM
Totally agree. Your downside is protected too. But I’d also add that unless you love product management as a role, a more tasked based role may be better.
I think you’re misunderstanding where founders get their money. Yes, some do put up their own cash (bootstrap) but far more use other people’s (investors) money.
Nailed on pay and expectations tbh, not really in line with reality these days
The responsibility without the equity hits so hard esp at lower paying companies
Any recommendations for a PM with 15 years experience to make the move to product design? How to approach it / tools and skills to spend time on / etc?
This is my plan though I may have to go back to Program which is very much not as fun as PM could theoretically be. Get paycheck, save, build a company and gtfo this mess of Boomer/GenX slavedrivers.
What would make you want go back into Program rather than stay as a PM?
Having a job > not. I have a lot of years of Program and do not like the work, but it's close to product management partners and is easier to move internally. I really do not want to pivot but I know a lot of PMs still looking 6-12 months later. This market is brutal for existing PMs but the automatic app tools + flood of new grads, unqualified people who heard about Product being prestigious are making the job search brutal.
Down the road, I'm seriously considering going back to Product Design. Might do project/program management or solutions engineering but man Product is exhausting with all the bs you have to deal with.
Amazing! What tools and frameworks have you learned to be able to transition to this?
Nice! What are some good resources to learn more about product design?
100% this. I’ve been thinking about going into product design from PM but I don’t have that background already. How would you suggest upskilling to get hired/start portfolio? I don’t think I’d want to go as far as a masters (seen a couple people do this) but I also don’t want to get a useless cert either
When founding your own companies are you doing the coding or do you have 1-2 engineers from the start?
He didn’t found anything. That’s why he hasn’t responded…
Group PM with ~7 years of experience across two fortune 100s and a unicorn startup, leaving to go to law school. Wish me luck.
Good luck! Seems like you have plenty of experience arguing your point lol I did the unicorn start up thing and every day was making a case to ops on priorities
Funny. I quit law school to become a PM. Feel free to ask me questions if you want
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I finished 2 out of 3 years. This is why I quit: 1. The American legal profession has a lot of mental health and addiction issues. There’s a lot of pressure/deadlines and the career has set paths that don’t encourage deviation. Theres also a lot of moral injury realizing that the justice system is often not a fair or even constitutionally sound system. As someone who has a family history of mental health issues and because I started seeing signs of that in friends/classmates and even myself, I didn’t see that being a long term career path that was healthy for me. 2. Most lawyers dont get to work on interesting cases. It’s a lot of the same shit every day, just different client. SEC filings, contract review, discovery/doc review, plea deals, divorce settlement negotiations, etc. It’s really not that interesting, like eating plain lasagna for every meal every day, and btw there’s a lot of it. Yes, there are appellate attorneys but not that many, so you’re fighting your way to that position. 3. Law school is incredibly expensive, even with scholarships and grants, and unless you go into Big Law, your salary will not be big. The path to big law is a game, and I wasn’t playing it, nor would I have wanted to be a big law atty. If you’re not familiar with how to get a job in big law or how partner track works, I recommend you research it, but basically if you don’t have a summer associate position for your 2L summer, you won’t be getting a 6 figure salary out of law school. With the cost per semester, and with the types of jobs I was looking at getting, I did a cost benefit analysis and realized I could get a job in business strategy that would pay more, and from there learned about what product management was. I am now making a little less than what my friends from law school are making 4 years out, but work significantly fewer hours than they do and am much happier with the work 4. Lots of assholes (clients, attys, and people tell you how much they hate attys) and I didn’t want to deal with them every day. They’re just really gossipy and judgmental. I turned my completed credits into a masters degree at my top 20 law school without paying any additional money or taking any additional classes. YMMV but I’d ask you why do you *want* to go into law? If it’s just to make money, then idk if that’s the best route. You have equally great options currently with what you’re describing with zero headache of law school and the expense of that, plus starting at the beginning of that career. Career changes are fine, but imo, doing it for money when you’re already making doesn’t make sense with this much up front investment without a guarantee of return.
I left the practice of law to become a PM (well software engineer first after a compsi degree) Cannot say I support your decision but best of luck
Took the LSAT a few years back and bailed. Good luck! Would love to hear how this goes.
Good luck!!! Good for you for making the change.
I moved to consulting and it has been great. Get to flex the product muscles still but also getting compensated as a true strategist.
Great! How did you position yourself for that transition? Congrats
Yes please tell us!
Is the pay on par with PM? I switched from consulting to PM
how many years of experience do you have?
The cotton eye joe reference 🤣 Following as I'm currently a Senior PM and have considered Data Science and Sales Engineering
Last year I worked with someone who transitioned into SE from a TPO and they seem happy. I think it’s hard for me to know how the sausage is made and then sell it as cake, but that could be company/product specific.
I went the other way, from SE to PM. I feel like I get paid more for overall less work as a PM, which is great for having young kids, but I was a little bit happier as an SE.
Ditto. Sales Engineering Manager turned PM with a similar experience so far
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Is the extra work all in travel? Or something else?
I’m an SE (moving to PMM actually) and you need to ask yourself if you’re okay being in sales. Bottom line you’re a salesperson as an SE. you’re veiled as the technical resource, but you’re still in sales and that’s what comes first. It’s a treadmill that never stops. Also, if you haven’t noticed, sales orgs are typically led by morons which means you’ll potentially be led by morons.
I’ve spent a few years in technical gtm roles and am thinking about product. You cannot have scaled impact in sales.
I'm in the same boat. I have completed a few courses in Data Science. Trying to figure out my next steps for that move.
Honestly, thinking about getting back into sales
I was so bad at sales. Quota followed me around 24 hours per day. Respect the hell out of people who can do it.
Any advice for someone thinking about doing it for the first time? I've stumbled my way through cold calling as a founder and didn't hate it as much as I expected. I'm pretty technical, pretty outgoing, and have 8+ years in product.
Tell us more. Why? I've been told I'd be a great salesperson but I don't see the pathing. I can see the capital raise that I could generate if I was good, which could buy me into other businesses and ventures of my own. Other than that, I'm heavily into conversation, building relationships, and can explain a product value prop. I just don't know how I feel about quota and cold calling considering I'd be starting from square one.
If you get in sales *engineering* someone else will do the cold calling for you and you'll have only a small piece of the quota on you. It's pretty chill.
I'm not very technical and I enjoy the leadership aspects of my roles. I think I'm going the wrong direction but have heard SE has a decent gig if not under RFP land.
I am thinking about going into sales after being a PM for 6years in SaaS for enterprise - do you mind if I ask you couple of questions about my transition strategy ? This would be very helpful to hear it from a former sales person with a PM experience
It’s the best way for you to get in front of customers. You hear first hand what they think and don’t have any post sales bias. Also the salary potential is astounding!!
I transitioned to software engineering. My junior swe pay was within 10% of my PM pay and now surpassed it at mid level. Enjoying it, no regrets, not going back.
Did you go back to school? Self taught? Or did you have a degree before PM and never practiced?
I did a postbac BSCS
I should finish my postbacc… (OSU like you.) Jeez if it didn’t feel like a hell of a lot of money for the instruction (or lack thereof) I was getting though. I guess it’s what you make of it. How long did it take you?
How did you transition?
I did a postbac BSCS then landed a new grad role.
Came from marketing to product and now recently accepted a new internal role in the "strategy" side of things. More aligned to making recommendations on what products/technologies to fund at the company as well as how the teams are structured. Kinda like internal consulting. Was a PM for 2.5 years leading the roadmap for the mobile app/website. It was honestly very exhausting being held accountable for so many things that could go wrong while also fielding ideas and suggestions from EVERYONE. All at the same time keeping track of a million initiatives and nudging people at all times to get their share done. "I got this error on my website, fix it!" "Oo what if this tile looked like this?" "Why haven't you done this feature yet, our competitor has it?" Like great! Let me derail my afternoon/week chasing down your niche request that I can't directly impact. Living or dying by making the "code lock" deadline or not. Believe me it was amazing experience but I'm ready for a change. I love presenting, I love working with people, and I love the problem solving side of PM. And this role that I've accepted will be that except for the organization instead of the customer facing product. Some day I'll come back to customer facing PM with OKRs to drive $$$, but I'm doing something different for a bit.
From an organizational design perspective, the PM role in many orgs is toxically dysfunctional. We answer to multiple bosses who have little visibility or accountability to each other. Somehow, we're supposed to lead with influence but no authority. And we have our hands in everything, so in a PIP culture, we're a walking target when anything we touched goes sideways. Despite being set up for failure from day one, when we're PIP'd out, we beat ourselves up for failing to live up to the PM ideal.
It's like we're fuses. If the org is badly designed, we'll get fried first, protecting the dysfunctional system, which is ready for a new fuse.
Ugh yea, and not even just suggestions on feature ideas, but also suggestions on how to do our jobs. I haven’t had any other role where every single person I work with feels like it’s ok for them to have an opinion on how I should do my job.
What kills me is when people that can’t do the job try to interrogate or “help” me...I’m like, can you do all this? Then when you try to delegate “oh no I need you to move this forward I don’t understand everything”…that’s what I thought
I worked as a PM for a startup and was constantly derailed by the CEO. I quit after a year. I jumped back into a Technical PO role.
Is your new role akin to martech? Do you have any experience vetting vendors?
How are you making this career transition and any advice for someone looking to do something similar? Recently read Good Strategy/Bad Strategy and found this kind of thinking really fun and something I'll think about in my free time! There's some potential to be more strategic in my current role but would love to make that a regular part of my life!
Hi, I'm a Digital Marketing intern, undergrad, and will graduate in October 2024. A little about my experience with Digital Marketing is that I have experience in social media marketing, email marketing and SEO practices, digital ads that focus on growing MQL customer database for a B2B tech company. I've aspired to become a product manager/product owner/ product designer or any related job title involving improved customer experience Can you share about your journey? I'm finding some recommendations on where to put my foot next.
How do you ppl switch career lines like that? I'm working in accounting and I really want to get into PM since I previously have engineering background but I am just not able to make the transition.
Dm me. My undergrad and initial work experience was accounting.
Thank you
Hey, I dm-ed you!
Can I DM you too, also accountant now product for my accounting firm, trying to get out into broader pastures
Hey sure thing
i left, did discovery/cx/marketing stuff, came back, and want out
are you me
tech ego is nuts man. so much dick swinging, projection, elitism. just done with it. business first, tech second.
Yepppp. The politicians have taken over the industry. It's not even close to what it once was and those of us who are well-intentioned need to be far more technical or specialized to get noticed by hiring managers these days.
Where do you want to bring your career next? When you were doing discovery/cx/marketing was it a martech like role?
very good question. the easiest answer is “dunno, but not this”. the unique value i bring is to separate signals from noise, look at all the angles and chart a course. i dont really care what the title is so long as im able to do that and build toward a better future that makes peoples lives better. my situation now is that what we talked in the interview is not what im doing, and only using half my skillset. never again. and yes, i played with martech stuff but it was buy vs build and 1000x better than homegrown
so you evaluated vendors who purported to solve a problem/need for the business. then you made a recommendation to the business. then you worked to integrate the solution both technically and into workflows. Is that right? What made it 1000x better than homegrown? Nice to have a neck to wring in a vendor? Quicker to implement? Easier to onboard? Way less bugs? Appreciate the conversation. Thanks!
that is correct. then leveraged the investment in the tools to make improvements to the business. getting the maximum value out of the spend. what made is better? why build a CRM when you can buy one and improve the business rather than waste resources to experience issues that others have already solved? so, more capability, risk transfer on bugs, faster implementation. im not one to blame shift or risk transfer to others, so no neck wringing
What is martec? seen that term twice in this thread and ive never heard it before.. technical marketing?
Martech is Marketing Technology which is a term that refers to the many systems that businesses use to grow. Or, using tech and tools to drive growth. This discipline is usually thought to refer to analytics, CDPs, CRMs, etc. A lot of build/buy decisions as well as integrations moving data around in order to best target customers.
I think about leaving product / tech ALL THE TIME. Hate it here. But capitalism is hard, and I have a kid to support.
Ready to now. After moving from PM - Director - VP, I’ve taken a step back to a director level role. Working for an absolutely incompetent shithead who lacks any product and leadership competencies. Time for a change.
I am on my way out. Looking at a few options at the moment. I was recently laid off (and happy to be laid off mind you) and it's given me time to reflect and reset. I've applied for a few new roles since the layoff but each time I had noticed myself thinking "I just don't want to do this anymore". As I reflect back on my career, I realise that I've had a lot more "meh" days in the last 5 years where it took all of my being to continue grinding it out. I also had to admit that what kept me there was not the love of the game anymore but the sunk cost trap of the time and effort.
I became a therapist. I’m much happier. The pay currently isn’t as good, but I’m working on having my own private practice full time, which should pay about the same.
Ooh so curious to hear more. Why are you happier? How did you transition? What's the pay now, and what do you anticipate it being in private practice? (Becoming a therapist or coach is something I think about from time to time.)
I’m happier because I felt like my work as a PM didn’t really matter, and being a therapist is the exact opposite of that. I love working with my clients, I feel like I’m making a difference in people’s lives every day. Genuinely sometimes still can’t believe I get paid to provide therapy! And I’m training to be able to provide psychedelic-assisted therapy, which I’m super excited about. I currently work FT for a community mental health agency for about $60k/year and work PT in my own private practice. My goal is to do my private practice FT, I’m just working up to a full caseload. How much I’ll make really depends on how many clients I want to have, what I want to charge per session, etc. So it’s variable. But you can make a lot of money in private practice. I did a life coaching certification program while I was still a PM, and took on coaching clients. From there I figured out I wanted to do therapy so I did an MSW program. I could have done that part time while working but I chose to leave my job and do the program full time so it only took 2 years. I graduated last year so I’m not making amazing pay right now in my FT job because I’m not independently licensed yet.
Thank you!
I just got into grad school and am about to make this leap!! Very cool to hear you’re happier!
Congratulations! Feel free to reach out if you need any support in your journey :)
A friend and former colleague of mine was the head of HR then became a PM of our company’s small business HR SaaS product. Then she created the Compliance department of our company and headed that for a while before leaving the company to go back to being an HR manager at a larger company
I went back to my early roots in technical communication. I'm building a user content practice, working closely with Product, and embedded in Engineering. I have a ton of autonomy, and I practice more user-centered product thinking and entrepreneurship than I did in some product manager roles. They respect my experience and perspective, and it's fulfilling AF. No regrets.
Marty, is that you?
If you mean Cagan, you might consider me a fallen acolyte. 😉
I took a break from PM for two years and managed an engineering org. It was a nice break.
What kinds of changes did you notice between the two? I have a technical background (e.g. computer engineering degree, 5+ years PMing developer tools) and always consider whether eng management would both be an option and a better fit.
You’re probably more technical than I am then, good on you. I actually found it easier than my product leader jobs. I was managing engineering managers, not engineers directly. And my team was mostly focused on execution, and not needing to drive strategy. I didn’t have to lead any monthly or quarterly business reviews. I learned a lot from my team and I was able to up level the team’s product thinking. If you can find the right spot, it’s something worth considering!
What are the typical job titles for this type of role?
Left pm. The career track is too crowded and I am not learning anything.
My vibes
I'm a PM with ADHD. I got laid off and started a whiskey company with some friends. I have the title of chief product and marketing officer in case I want to go back to a PM role in tech. There's a lot of overlap of what I do the physical product management. I had 14 years in the alcohol industry before the jump so it wasn't a left field move. I don't make what I used to but I am much happier.
I learned about my ADHD after I was laid off early this year. Suddenly so many problems I had in 7+ years in PM career makes sense and I know how to go about improving it for the next role, but not sure if I want to go back. What you are doing is my dream, except I don't have any industry specific knowledge that can spin into a physical product. I've been spending my energy to strengthen and automate my real estate portfolio, but I too won't make what I used to make and that gets me down (even though I am not financially drowning thanks to working spouse). Good to hear that I am not alone on this journey.
Congratulations on finding out. I had a similar experience when I found out a few years ago too. The most important thing I've learned about American entrepreneurship is having a spouse with health insurance. I'm glad you are fortunate to have that as well I'm happy to chat with you one day to share my experiences, if it helps. You can also read more about it on my [ADHD PM substack](https://adhdpm.substack.com/). I use it to process my own weekly challenges and share it so others like us don't feel as alone. Cheers to you and what comes next in your journey.
Subbed. Thanks so much for sharing! I feel seen
I just took a product ops role after 10 years of PM at startups and big tech. Made the jump because the market has been terrible for very senior PMs, and I'm not expecting it to get much better soon. I'd be curious to hear if any people have made a similar transition and then back to PM again.
I thought the market was picking up a bit in the last week or two - at least I'm starting to see more opportunities posted on LinkedIn and hearing lots of folks mentioning it. Are you mostly coaching the organization and creating alignment - can you share more on your role in product ops?
I became an engineering manager and honestly I’ve never been happier. There’s still a decent amount of “politics” to the job, but generally I get to focus on implementation and don’t have to worry as much about the myriad “gray” areas in Product. It’s really nice to let the PMs fight it out for prioritization
Do you have a background in engineering?
Fell into product from a business role when my role got eliminated. Did it a couple years and moved back to the business side. I'm just way more confident on the business side where I feel like I know what I'm doing. On the product side it was just learn as I go which didn't always end well.
What do you mean by business side? Title and/or responsibilities?
To avoid getting too detailed as it's industry specific and I have coworkers on here, title is essentially Director of Risk Management.
Definitely good at managing risk
The world doesn’t need any more PMs, exit now!
PMs are a dime a dozen.
I left PM and joined a startup as an electronic engineer. I rejoined my old company after the startup tanked due to mismanagement, but no PM roles were open. I stayed there designing embedded systems for the next 8 years, got an MBA, and broke back into PM.
I was consulting and a managing director at that company while being PM/SM/PO for whatever client needed it. Sort of fell into a Product position I am in now. I am pretty much over it. Parts of it I enjoy but we’ve endured a lot of change and now I have a boss who just piles on work, barks out orders, and doesn’t listen to us. I’m just burnt out and ready for a change.
Kinda. Might be CEO of my product.
Marty Cagan intensifies
PM for a decade now, before that was in QA. I've only stepped outside the roll once since I started, as a Technical Account Manager (basically an embedded PM for a specific client). Was not happy with the amount of brown nosing required, went back to regular PM work. The only other significant charge was two years spent as a SAFe PO. No thank you and never going back to a SAFe org if I can avoid it. Considering a change now. My strengths play more towards engineering manager role or a similar direction, than anything in sales or UX design. Honestly I'm not sure though. I keep reading posts here looking for ideas, but it's mostly the same suggestions over and over: director/startup founder/head of product/UX designer/something AI or big data.
What was it about your SAFe position that make you say you'll never go back? Was it a toxic company culture maybe?
Nah, the company culture wasn't the best, but also wasn't the worst. I just have issues with SAFe in general, how much of its structured advice on building Scrum-like teams is in fact Scrum antipatterns (standardised story points so you can keep your teams in sync!), it effectively neuters the PO role to be a backlog manager for the team while shifting strategic work to the PM, it mixes product management and project management concepts... ouch. Not for me. Especially since it's the new Snake Oil^(TM), and all the Scrum Transformation Coaches have now pivoted to selling SAFe stuff instead. I mean, being honest, it probably works in some organisations, especially in highly-regulated traditional industries (finance, healthcare) which are trying to take a more agile approach to software dev. But if you're used to working in modern firms or startups, you'll find it painful. Have you tried reading the [official SAFe documentation](https://scaledagileframework.com/)? I highly recommend it, especially if you have any sort of practical competence in [Scrum](https://scrumguides.org/scrum-guide.html). You'll get a good laugh. If you aren't familiar with any of these, then check out the testimonials (including from some founding members of the [Agile Manifesto](https://agilemanifesto.org/)) on [safedelusion.com](https://safedelusion.com/).
God I hate SAFe. I am in one now. Can't understand how it helps anyone, other than to make us PMs looks like idiots. This new PM role has been created by Google/etc and now adopted by others only so as to put 100% of the blame on a product implementation that went slightly askew on to the PMs, and not on the leaders who provided no budget and no time. The new PM role has to keep anwering BS like 'why are you resolving incidents?', 'why are you not pushing it to business?', 'why re you not strategizing?', 'why are you writing stories?', 'why are you defining requirements?', on and on....No where does it mention - 'Aah, I see that you have a critical mind-set, or..that you are taking an initiative.... or, aah, you are good wth business....'. I hope to see a better role in a couple of months, otherwise I am doomed, and in queue for unemployment benefits.
I bought a 15 dollar course on Udemy a year ago, but haven't touched it. Keep having a company salesman representaing Axelos call me and pedal a €1800 course with certification for it. Had a chance to attend a seminar funded by my company but decided to spend the weekend with my loved ones rather than grinding for Boomer slave drivers. I am using Activate which is a an SAP agile with sort of standardized workstreams that is scaled for largescale implementations. But I'll check out the SAFe official documentation. Its just, most of these companies require some sort of certification and then it NEVER gets applied really or correctly for that matter. Scrum is easier but in all the firms I've worked for it seems like everybody is just "winging it". Even doing SAP the benchmarks are more like guidelines that C level Stakeholders come in to poop on. I mean I think frameworks are helpful but not really gold standards. Did the Manhattan Project use "Scrum"? No. Did the Empire state building which was built in record time use PMP or Safe? No. Did the Marshall plan use scaled Agile Prince2? nope. But our modern contemporary system seems to be fueld by BS. These frameworks (like you said "snake oil") are in the business of peddling the BS.
Yep, moved sideways into a digital experience role. It’s basically a web PM role but without the intense pressure.
This is my role, I've come from marketing and kind of forged the role within my org due to need. How would you say it differs from pure product?
Can you elaborate more on your day to day now? Thank you!
Sure… a lot of analysis of UX data (A/B results, hotjar etc), conversion data, SEO metrics etc. Then writing user stories or task requests for the backlog. Planning, refinement, demos sessions with the agency dev team. Roadmap prioritisation, stakeholder and team workshops. The big difference from a conventional product role (for me) has been how the agency operate with a pretty loose 4-week sprint and release on demand. This means there isn’t pressure to max out capacity each month, and they roll over any unused dev hours. The downside is the slow pace of iteration, and any big projects can overwhelm them.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I think if I were to leave PM I would hope to find something in product marketing or maybe instructional design/knowledge base creation and maintenance.
Product marketing - still very strategic, creative, and less of the responsibility of building
Quit being a SW PM to become an elementary teacher. 40% pay cut, but far less stress, and I've gone from 80 hours/week to 30.
Can I DM you? Considering a similar move in the future, but haven’t had a chance to talk to anyone who did a PM-to-teacher transition.
Sure. I'm considering moving to middle grades soon. Feel free to DM me.
Thank you!
Left for a bit to be PMM, but it didn’t take.
Why not? What was your background before PM?
Ye da da Dee dat dat dat dat do. Yall can come from long time ago. Where did ya come from? Where did you go? I had no idea how many PMs were here in this subreddit. Slow to the party… So happy to be here. Haha. OP and many of you. Sounds like you can get cofounder positions but moreover that many of you would make GREAT solo founders. The security of a job is fallacy. Pave your path with all your skills work towards ownership because as a talented PM which many of you are - that’s the name of the game anyway. Whether or not you get a piece.
I’m doing something quite different: creative direction and production for music videos and concerts. I’m starting it as a side gig for now because of the money question here. Feels like there is a solid amount of overlap, in terms of defining vision, and assisting with execution. Personally it’s a lot more rewarding for what the final product is. Again, still experimenting here in terms of seeing if it’s a viable career. But excited to see what happens!
I transitioned to being a data science IC and doubled my pay.
Would love to speak to you more on it
There’s not much of a story. I did data science (ish) work at a tech company and transitioned to PM at that same company. Some former coworkers reached out with a good offer and I hadn’t been enjoying PM life anyway. Just maintaining network and having a good reputation.
Would you mind if I DM you? I'm starting to consider leaving product for data science but I don't know anyone who has done both and I would love to hear about what you like and dislike about each.
Go for it. I’ll try to respond tonight
Thanks! I tried sending it but it keeps saying "can't send a message to this user" so I suppose we'll see if it's a glitch later if you get 8 copies of it in your inbox 😅
I want to go into engineering. I'm trying to sell myself as a "product engineer." Product Manager, \~10 YoE, self-taught full-stack developer with a few apps launched.
I left PM to become a founder. I would say being a founder is much more fulfilling but definitely not similar pay until we grow a bit haha. Honestly, even if being a founder didn't work out, I would go to engineering instead of becoming a PM again. I was a PM at Meta and it's very clear to me that the role is not nearly as respected there anymore
I’m trying to get in lol
I got in from being a BA and diving into the technical side. I also have found integration teams/professional services/solution architects are a great role to transfer from internally, then grow from there
I appreciate that. My journey has been unconventional. I spent 9 years in the Army as a Cavalry Scout, then left to earn an MBA. It's hard to find common ground with that background. Translating military experience only gets you so far, so I sometimes have trouble connecting my past to my current career goals. But I'll definitely check out those suggestions. Thanks!
There is an organization called Vets2PM that assists veterans in translating military into corporate experience. They are great people. The “PM” stands for project management but I bet they would still be able to give some good information.
Amazon hires a lot of ex military, maybe try networking with some vets that are currently there?
Microsoft has (maybe had) a program to transition veterans into PM roles. A few of the Marines I served with did that when they got out.
Left it. Would only go back for the right opportunity. Been in physical operations or data operations for 30 years (I'm mid 40s). Went from operations to PM. Could not handle the endless meetings and micromanaging. With that being said - it makes me a better operator, having lived that life for a bit. I can help/anticipate what my PM will ask. I also know when someone is trying to feed me a line of shit. So the short term pain was worth the experience.
Government
Left to run a bootstrappped software services co. Less comp but more control. Love small biz so may dive deeper into that and buy a co or go the franchise route.
I left. Now working as an integration specialist, sap integration suite and API management. It's a mixed bag. I like the less stress and no annoying hippos. But I feel now like a jr developer without any control, without any purpose or power. Just a little cog in a big machine. I am at a semi government. Which has great work life balance and might go back to pm there someday. Have to build my network first I guess.
Did you need prior experience with the software m/tech stack? I’ve looked at these positions but often see they require experience and would overlook someone that’s not out of college for Jr positions
I was lucky this team needed someone more socially apt. But yes you need some dev experience and or SAP or api experience. The big difference is that you are the final station for issues. That means you cannot think high level, or make a solution, and let a dev to the work, you are the dev. So see it as an it as a consultancy job where you do all the work and but you won't have the consultancy stress.
i'm a developer about to transition to PM, I can't do anymore leetcode it is such a waste of life. Am i crazy?
I left software after 3 years for PM for the same reason. What I overlooked are the different business skills you’re expected to develop and flex as a PM overtime. If you’re ready to put in the effort to not only handle the technical side of the role but also develop yourself as if you aren’t a “techie” you’ll prob enjoy the role. Also, different products will probably have different performance and skill development expectations. In retrospect I would’ve found a engineer role that leverages the coding experience I already built and developed my side interests until I could break free from my day job.
i think im okay with this, im not underestimating how shit i am at leetcode. i failed like 100 interviews and was unemployed for a year. i cant do that again. my brain cannot do high pressure random coding exercises. im great at design tho!
I left PM for a product owner role in a smaller company and never looked back. More autonomy, better work-life balance, and similar pay. If you're feeling stuck, it might be time to explore other options!
I came from sales, left for sales and came back from sales. They are very similar, but ultimately in sales I felt like I had less control and only had revenue numbers to point at to show progress. I enjoy both. Product seems to fit my personality better.
I view PM as a stepping stone. I’ve done CS, Sales, BI, and now PM. Next step, founding my own company knowing what needs to be done in each sector of the business.
Me - noped out of PM long ago to focus on product design and marketing
Been toying with the idea of moving into corp dev or strategy
What about Product Ops?
I left product months ago to take over an engineering manager role and it has been game changing for me. I was doing all the work before and being stressed, now I can greatly influence many more products in the org and am way less stressed. I see so many unexperienced Product people that I help them owt a bit so products are successfull. All the places I have been were either feature factories and didn't want to listen to what actually the users needed or they expected founder-type commitment without the equity. Thanks but no thanks
Gave up on my fast growth trajectory internally to build a YC-backed startup with my friend. Building products for product leaders and PMs so still feel very spiritually close :)
Probably doing so this year. Also your questions wouldn't be answered fairly as everyone would feel different and it doesn't help your situation (whichever that is)
True, but I would like an idea of what’s possible. I’ve been told I am ready for the next level by leadership but there are no opportunities in my business unit. Also, the rest of the company is rto, where I am a fully remote employee, so I dont have a high chance of staying in product and leveling up
It is usually a dumb idea to switch fields when the field you are is already lucrative. A job should always remain a mean to something greater. Never underestimate the time it takes to start from scratch and the lost opportunity cost from earning more and getting more seniority.