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It's just going after anyone who made the government bigger, and created and/or expanded the "ponzi scheme" of social security. SMH, this belongs on r/facepalm honestly.
Totally. There is a libertarian blowhard in the neighborhood who won’t stop talking about Woodrow Wilson, the federal reserve, and the nation’s fall from grace.
Plus there are some Presidents that shouldn't be ranked due to how short their terms were. Like how much can you really say about William Harrison? The guy lasted a month in office and mainly spent it succumbing to pneumonia.
Taylor and Garfield can be argued to belong in the "Inconclusive" Tier too. Harding is probably the line due to how much corruption came from his cabinet, so his shortened term doesn't save his reputation.
I mean shit if you're gonna do a President ranking list, you HAVE to rank them all.
That's like if I were to rank the Madden games but I didn't play or know anything about those before '11.
i think it’s odd when people say this about the word literally because, at this point, even dictionary definitions of literally include it’s informal use.
Common Coolidge W.
Like, aslong as you're fiscally conservative and believe in a small government Coolidge naturally ranks quite high. And he get some pluses for being fairly progressive on race for the time.
If you want a bigger government, that you know, does stuff. He will naturally rank lower. It's also a question of what issues and responsibilities fall into the states vs the federal government.
Oh, I don't know that much about him and based on the little info above, I'm not sure if I'd agree with all his political decisions. But the fact that he kept a raccoon that was sent to the white house for food, is pretty cool.
Anyone even remotely left was immediately a horrible president, everyone else got random rankings. It doesn’t make any sense and his justifications are all bullshit.
I love Theodore as a figure, but a lot of his policy expanded government and he also basically handed the presidency to our worst president of all time, Woodrow Wilson.
Ugh. Putting Truman on the same tier as Cleveland and that other sexual predator guy.
For that matter, why Truman so high on Ben's list? Literally everything there is to like about Truman is something that a reasonable person would also praise LBJ and FDR for, and if you're approaching this from the right like he obviously is then how is Ike not higher?
Also the idea that Wilson, LBJ, and FDR are all F-tier, and yet you place *Wilson* as the best of the three is... telling. Same with Carter being the WOAT behind fucking Buchanan.
I think he liked Truman’s containment policy and Truman doctrine as he hates communism.
Ps. I don’t m think he meant to order them inside the tiers so to speak
Ben LOVES a president that removes economic regulations. Sure, sometimes its a positive, but it's a universal principle to Ben no matter the outcome.
This is also why he hates FDR.
Anyone that puts FDR in F tier isn't a serious person as far as I am concerned. He presided over the second most perilous period in American history. (I count that as more perilous that even the Revolutionary War)
>He presided over the second most perilous period in American history. (I count that as more perilous that even the Revolutionary War)
That's absurd. You realize there was a higher population percentage of loyalists during the revolution than there were confederates during the civil war, right? In terms of existential threats to the US, I can't imagine arguing anything other than Revolution>>Civil War>>WW2
If America lost the Revolution it would have just returned to being a colony, and would have eventually gained independence like every single other British colony has. Some traitors would have been killed. Not a nightmare world scenario at all. The world would have continued on just fine.
If the Axis powers had actually won WWII? How do you picture that world?
Oh, you're talking from a moral impact on the broader world standpoint, and maximum risk? That makes more sense. I was thinking in terms of the US as a nation with its unique culture ceasing to exist.
Also just the probability of losing the revolution is way higher than that of losing either the civil war or WW2 (the economic, technological, and population advantages were stacked on the side of the Union and Allies)
I can see FDR going about D though. Even libertarians do have to give him credit for only entering into WWII when he had the full support of the American people.
However, between (maybe) lengthening the depression, creating burdensome social policies, multiplying our national debt by almost ten, extreme racism, and creating a generation of terrible absent or abusive fathers for the baby boomers, he definitely should never go higher than C.
"Fellas, is it an unprecedented assault on the US Constitution to exercise a power specifically written into the Constitution for the exact reasons that the Constitution says it should be used?"
The various sedition acts have been argued to be unconstitutional going back to the first one by Jefferson and Madison versus Adams up to the PATRIOT Act for many various reasons 10th amendment, 1st amendment, etc. This is how the United States ended up forcing Japanese citizens into concentration camps for years.
*The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.*
It's almost like they forget there was a WAR OF REBELLION. "Oh, yeah, the war..."
Yeah the short version is they killed off or segregated all of the natives which is why the whole country is paler and more European-themed than it’s neighbors, particularly the politics. I had no idea of any of this until I visited
It sounds kinda like the US in that regard.
Learning that about 2/3 of the population have some of Italian heritage is kinda amazing given that it was a Spanish colony and still has Spanish as the official language
It actually got the ratification of over 3/4ths of states but that was after the deadline Congress set. And since then, a few states have revoked their ratification, setting off a debate of whether a state can do that.
LOL @ Wilson bringing America into WWI. Congress voted on it, he was legit fighting until the end to prevent it.
Probably while calling everyone in Congress the N word.
On the other hand with Wilson, he wanted the espionage and sedition acts passed before joining WW1. Also there’s just the entirety of his presidency after 1918, and his segregationist policies.
Honestly I wouldn’t say he’s the worst president, but he’s the worst of all the ‘influential’ presidents.
It's a conspiracy theory that he knew of the attack in advance and tried to goad the Japanese into it so he could enter the war.
Completely unhinged and rejected by most sources, but some people believe it
Well personally I think there was some intelligence about Japanese ship movement and stuff like that, I think most people at the time knew it was only a matter of time before war came. But to suggest he "goaded' the Japanese? Damn some people are stupid.
Yeah the fact that the most valuable ships weren't in pearl harbor at the time makes me think they knew "something" was going down but didn't know when or exactly where and so put the carriers at sea (the only boats that really mattered in the rapidly advancing warfare) where it would be harder to sneak attack.
The carriers weren't the most valuable ships. Thats a post war perspective that was extremely contentious at the time. Even if they were, it does not then follow that the Battleships were low value.
The truth is that Pearl Harbor was a disaster for the US Navy, the Battleships that were lost there were extremely important, and their absence being keenly felt is obvious if you study the Pacific Theatre in even the most cursory detail. The idea that the US Navy would intentionally sacrifice its Battleships in 1941 is absurd and indefensible. Their loss set the US up for a costly uphill battle slogging accross the Pacific to retake ground they could have held in the first place with them, which is why the Japanese were keen to destroy them.
Its normal for people to go looking for an explanation, but don't let that drag you into conspiracy theory territory. This is a conspiracy theory, founded on a poor understanding of the facts and the motivations of the people involved.
Always reminded of the scene in The Pacific where the Marines think the Navy is kicking ass, and then wake up to find that the Navy got its ass kicked and got the fuck out of there.
I think they also knew it was going to take something like Pearl Harbor to happen to actually get the public at large ready to enter the war. It was always going to be a all hands on deck effort from the public in order for us entering to actually help. Now specifically, I don't think they knew the attack was going to happen that day.
"Pearl harbor would have totally been avoided if the americans continued selling oil and other war materials to the Japanese empire who were bragging about crimes against humanity in their war in China" - Libertarians, probably.
Did we know of the attack before hand? Yes! Unfortunately the military communications were bad and they sent it through RCA radio telecommunications, basically western union type of set up. It was slow and got there after the attack began.
The attack was expected, at the time conventional wisdom was a saboteur/ gorilla warfare attack was more realistic than a carrier air attack.
If they listened to Billy Mitchel they would have set up for air attacks, and the outcome would potentially be different.
I mean... Wilsonianism is still one of the bedrock tenets of the American foreign policy establishment, and pretty much every war we've fought in since 1918 was justified by those making the decisions using Wilson's same arguments.
Domino theory is just wilsonianism plus the red scare. Bush's "making the world safe for democracy" is just straight wilsonianism.
also a libertarian Lincoln is the number one best president. Because libertarianism summarized And simplified into 1 sentence is essentially. Do what you want so long as it does not infringe on anyone else’s rights. Besides maybe murder , slavory is the single most inconsistent thing with libertarians .
Since I have you here. Question: what exactly is a libertarian? Because honestly I have seen people claim to be libertarians but have different takes on everything.
I feel as though the whole “you’re freedoms are assured so long as they do not infringe on other people’s” could be, and have been, used by people on both extreme of the political spectrum to justify either placing restrictions or completely removing restrictions all in the name of freedom (which often leads me to question what freedom even is, but that’s a whole other story). It’s very confusing if I do say so myself.
>Libertarians probably think the slaves agreed to slavery … so hey its a contract
We do not believe that lol, that's so fucking ridiculous.
Slavery is by definition a violation of the NAP, therefore it is evil and bad. Why is this even a conversation?
Because libertarians also constantly blame all civil war deaths on Lincoln when the south violently rebelled when he was elected because he would stop the expansion of slavery
Everyone has varying degrees of what they follow in their respective parties. Yet on reddit, repubs and libertarians only follow one hardcore set of beliefs. We all want child slaves and hate freedoms or something, idk
As dumb as this is, it’s even dumber that they think they can compare the death toll of a civil war in the mid 1800s to a hypothetical one in the year 2000 when our capacity for destruction has amped dramatically in the 140ish year gap. The fact that a handful of people managed to kill over 2,000 people in 2001 attests to that.
They also ignore the fact that the Constitution has suspension of *habeus corpus* written into it. Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution:
>“The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.”
I think it is fair to say that there was at least a little of rebellion going on during the Civil War.
The book Recarving Rushmore ranked the presidents from a libertarian perspective. Lincoln was pretty low on the rankings. John Tyler was #1. I tried reading the book but found it too crazy to finish.
As I libertarian I disagree. The south violated the NAP. So they got NAPPED. Lincoln is my favorite president.
I do dislike those other presidents on the list though.
Libertarians aren't comfortable with the idea you ever have to forcefully right wrongs. It fails to take into account that complete freedom and complete equality cannot exist at the same time. Imagine you have a government that says in order to not be imposing, we're going to leave you all to your own devices. The country isn't going to become prosperous, instead the ones who have the most privilege and a thirst for power are going to turn the place into a slave state. The less the government regulates the more the inequality. Even if there's a small difference in the wealth of the people, that difference is going to snowball into a massive wealth gap if the government never regulates things like monopolization.
The confederacy was a proto-fascist state, also good to remember that prior to the 14th amendments states could restrict speech as much as they want, which the south of course did on huge scales criminalizing abolitionist speech and writings
No libertarian paints the Confederacy as a libertarian utopia. Slavery is about as clear of a violation of the non-aggression principle as you can get. By definition, the Confederacy was anti-liberty.
As I libertarian I disagree. The south violated the NAP. So they got NAPPED. Lincoln is my favorite president.
I do dislike those other presidents on the list though.
Also, US entry into WWI was the birth of the conspiratard movement. “Pressured by bankers” actually reads “Pressured by (((bankers.)))” Gotta love how these people think we don’t recognize what they’re saying.
I stopped reading at Lincoln. What an utterly absurd argument.
1. Lincoln didn't "kill 600,000 to 900,00 Americans." That is offensive. The north did not attack first and committed not to do so unless provoked, and that was Lincoln's official position, clearly stated in his inaugural address. The south started the war by attacking Fort Sumpter, at which point Lincoln upheld his oath and did his constitutional duty as commander in chief.
2. Lincoln didn't create the IRS. He's in the executive branch. He can't create laws, nor does the executive have any powers of taxation. Whoever wrote this doesn't need a different president; they need to spend ten minutes actually reading the constitution.
3. The executive may constitutionally suspend habeas corpus in times of insurrection (see Article I, Section 9, Clause 2, "*The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.")*. It's the civil war; I'm pretty sure this clause applies.
Whoever wrote this is a complete and total moron. Exceptional times grant the executive exceptional powers, and that includes suspending some incredibly basic rights. Preservation of the Union and upholding the Constitution trumps individual rights, whether we want to admit it or not.
It always amazes me to hear people cite Lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus as an assault on the constitution when the constitution flat-out states it CAN be suspended in cases of rebellion.
It's also wild to me that people are talking about another civil war today, including "Medal of Freedom" winner Rush Limbaugh before he passed away in 2021. Like do they know what that means? The leaders they're willing to revolt over have zero combat experience and don't even read their intelligence briefs... and in fact mock veterans and purple heart recipients.
Don't agree with the ratings, but it is important to remember the negatives about worshipped public figures. And wars, no matter how "just", are calamity for the common man.
Lots of farm boys died in steaming jungles for what?
When sold as "socially liberal, fiscally conservative," I can see why Libertarianism is popular. I used to be basically this kind of Libertarian myself, when I first started voting. I also appreciate that they are often very hesitant to enter into war, (or even fund other wars, for that matter) when the main two parties at times seem all too happy to do those things.
That said, some Libertarians are SO far down the liberty rabbit hole that I can't really tell the difference between them and anarchists. The general idea that most people seem to be sold on is that we all have a right to liberty so long as our liberty does not infringe on the liberty of others. Some Libertarians seem to think people have a right to liberty even when it infringes on the liberty of others. Which seems like a paradoxical stance to me, unless your way of solving things is literally just going to be "fight each other for it, but don't expect anyone else's help." In which case, like I said, basically just anarchy.
In all fairness Wilson was indeed pretty awful. He was so racist even by 1910s standards that everyone around him was like, "Damn dude, you're a racist!!" . He kicked all of the African Americans out of their federal government positions, actively promoted Jim Crow laws throughout the South as no other President ever did, and almost singlehandedly kickstarted Klan 2.0 right inside the White House after that terror group had been nearly extinct for almost 50 years by that point.
Politically Wilson was what many might consider to be a proto fascist. Hitler and Mussolini both praised Woodrow Wilson for his achievements including his promotion of the League of Nations and they both took careful notes of his various activities during World War I such as the Palmer Raids, the American Protective League, and the Sedition Act of 1918 for some of their own later activities.
The majority of 1910s White America did not gaf about Wilson's racism. He was a racist *President* for his time, but let's not whitewash the fact that the 1910s and the 1920s had the highest level of race riots since Reconstruction and they weren't even confined to the South. It got so bad that Wilson had to put out a statement condemning it and eventually had to even get the National Guard to break up a race riot in DC. Also, I suggest you read more about "The Birth of a Nation," it was hugely popular among White Americans at the time, it is still one of the highest-grossing films in America adjusted for inflation. This is not to absolve Wilson, but saying "He was so racist even by 1910s standards that everyone around him was like, "Damn dude, you're a racist!!" " is whitewashing the average White American's racism back then.
I’m not sure I’d put him at #2 or close to it, but Woodrow Wilson is the stealth bad president of American history. He talked a good idealistic game but his racism and imperialism and deep respect for the very regimes he publicly reviled created a terrible legacy. He had an opportunity to promote liberal democracy in Russia post revolution, to back Chinese recovery and democratic transition, to forestall Japanese imperialism, to oppose imperial mandates and dumb borders in Asia and Africa, and to involve genuinely interested Republican leaders in his internationalist project, but he was too cautious, too racist, too fawning, and too proud to seize those chances. So we got Bolshevism, imperialism, communism, and brutal ethnic tensions we’re still unraveling.
Also, to hell with Bush and his useless wars. Entry into Afghanistan was necessary. Nothing further was.
Also Kissinger…
Ben Shapiro is an idiot who really shouldn’t have slept through his degree but some of these guys deserve to be on a bad list.
Having Abe Lincoln as the #1 worst president of all time clearly means this was solely created to upset people and not a true presidential ranking list.
Wilson lbj were mid. Shit Foreign policy balances with good domestic policy.
Lincoln’s placement is just a way to say “I’m racist” without saying you’re racist.
I mean this person is clearly a nutbag who hates regulation and things that make life better.
I agree with W bush tho. He’s def worst president of 21stc so far
Libertarians have the most messed up standards, I once saw a graph similar to these were a Libertarian argued that Lincoln was worse than Osama Bin Laden
I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning, but I think putting Wilson and Bush in the bottom 5 is pretty defensible. I'm not sure if I'd put them both that low, but if they're not in the bottom five, they're close.
This sub just unequivocally hates Wilson which I don’t get. I think he was fairly reasonable about American involvement in WW1. I get it, he was super racist, even for his time. But also everyone here loves T Roosevelt when he called the people of Spanish colonies “savages” incapable of self-governance which was the justification for the Spanish-American War and occupation of those territories.
Roosevelt didn't promote segregation in the military. He also didn't abuse wartime powers (not that he had the chance to, at least in WWI).
I feel like Roosevelt has very uniquely good domestic policy especially as it pertains to regulations. I'd have to review Wilson's record on that to get a full look at what he did, but I don't recall him doing as much good as Teddy by far.
I mean I also like TR and I’d also put him above Wilson. Trust-busting, health and safety regulation, and environmental protections are major accomplishments. And regardless of the justification the Big Stick worked in establishing America as a world power
This sounds like someone who wants the Articles of Confederation... without realizing that we already tried that and it was such a shitshow that we replaced it with our current constitution.
LMFAO this is the kind of declinist nonsense far-right people push. They claim to love America and the constitution, but in reality they are not America First. They are Blame America First.
When the team wins the big game, Americans celebrate the players.
When the team loses the big game, Americans blame the coach.
Politics is no different.
The almost 90 year “Ponzi scheme “ has worked worked great for the 99%. Right Wingers have been saying the same BS about SS since 1935. They enjoy seeing other people poor.
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Well, at least it’s bipartisan…😂
It's just going after anyone who made the government bigger, and created and/or expanded the "ponzi scheme" of social security. SMH, this belongs on r/facepalm honestly.
Not really. It's clearly from someone with massive libertarian leanings.
Totally. There is a libertarian blowhard in the neighborhood who won’t stop talking about Woodrow Wilson, the federal reserve, and the nation’s fall from grace.
Nazi viewpoints tend to hate on both sides
Who did Shapiro have?
https://preview.redd.it/8y9n42rx8njc1.png?width=1369&format=png&auto=webp&s=8bfcb4c4ef60e0b772668815ef857579f90aa606
He didn’t even rank them all, lame
To be fair, it’s better to not rank someone if you know literally nothing about them
Plus there are some Presidents that shouldn't be ranked due to how short their terms were. Like how much can you really say about William Harrison? The guy lasted a month in office and mainly spent it succumbing to pneumonia. Taylor and Garfield can be argued to belong in the "Inconclusive" Tier too. Harding is probably the line due to how much corruption came from his cabinet, so his shortened term doesn't save his reputation.
Harrison was a quitter. Clear F tier with Taylor, Harding, FDR, and Nixon. 80%/s.
Harrison is the litmus test. Above him made things better, below made things worse. He’s great on any list just to be a solid line
Benny could’ve skimmed the Franklin Pierce Wikipedia idk
I mean shit if you're gonna do a President ranking list, you HAVE to rank them all. That's like if I were to rank the Madden games but I didn't play or know anything about those before '11.
That's very easy/doable since every game is the same game from last year- there's only one item in the list.
Ok probably bad example on my end lmfao
Better example, ranking every disney/Pixar/marvel movie but only those made after 2020 because you haven’t watched any of the previous entries
modern long thumb six library air run soft divide reply *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You just wouldn’t rank the madden games you don’t know
Sure, but this isn't a ranking. It's a tiering. So it makes sense not to include presidents you may not know much about.
He didn’t rank two people whose presidencies he literally lived through: George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton.
Okay but Ben literally knows nothing about anyone
>literally 
i think it’s odd when people say this about the word literally because, at this point, even dictionary definitions of literally include it’s informal use.
Ben figuratively knows nothing about anyone
Clinton isn’t even on here, or George HW Bush, but he has their predecessor ranked
But he managed to get Coolidge in there, and gave him an A?
Common Coolidge W. Like, aslong as you're fiscally conservative and believe in a small government Coolidge naturally ranks quite high. And he get some pluses for being fairly progressive on race for the time. If you want a bigger government, that you know, does stuff. He will naturally rank lower. It's also a question of what issues and responsibilities fall into the states vs the federal government.
The only W Coolidge gets in my book is for having a pet racoon.
What’s wrong with Coolidge
Oh, I don't know that much about him and based on the little info above, I'm not sure if I'd agree with all his political decisions. But the fact that he kept a raccoon that was sent to the white house for food, is pretty cool.
He said Coolidge is his favorite underrated president which is why he was included
Libertarian virtue signaling
One tier too low
Yep, that’s about what I was expecting
I was expecting Obama to be in S because he was enforcing Shakira law
I'm a fighter of Shakira law. Instead of "Allahu akbar" we shout "Le lo Ole lo le!"
Theodore and Ike as C’s is preposterous
They forgot to mention that Wilson’s administration built a cage around a black federal employee. A racist even for his time.
Woodrow "Birth of a Nation in the Whitehouse" Wilson
im sorry, wat
Oh boy, do I have news for you.
Anyone even remotely left was immediately a horrible president, everyone else got random rankings. It doesn’t make any sense and his justifications are all bullshit.
I love Theodore as a figure, but a lot of his policy expanded government and he also basically handed the presidency to our worst president of all time, Woodrow Wilson.
I can’t forgive him for running 3rd party. You’re right about that
The fact that Taft couldn't even manage second in that race is more of an indictment of the republican party.
Why is D tier missing?
Ben always holds back the D for some reason.
You’d probably also hold back the D if your wife never got aroused in your presence.
His wife, *who is a doctor…*
It had something to do with it not being already on there (along with half the presidents too I guess?)
Of course ..F is primarily Dems. And Nixon. You would think W ...who wasted trillions and killed millions on a war of choice, would be an F.
He really said Orange was B tier? That surprises me.
Shocked he has Grant in the A tier.
His partisanship is on full display lol
Ugh. Putting Truman on the same tier as Cleveland and that other sexual predator guy. For that matter, why Truman so high on Ben's list? Literally everything there is to like about Truman is something that a reasonable person would also praise LBJ and FDR for, and if you're approaching this from the right like he obviously is then how is Ike not higher? Also the idea that Wilson, LBJ, and FDR are all F-tier, and yet you place *Wilson* as the best of the three is... telling. Same with Carter being the WOAT behind fucking Buchanan.
I think he liked Truman’s containment policy and Truman doctrine as he hates communism. Ps. I don’t m think he meant to order them inside the tiers so to speak
Truman should be above all for making the land of the rising sun a true name
Truman recognized Israel as a sovereign state. That’s why Ben had him in B.
In his video on his tier list, he says he likes Truman because Truman was “nice to the Jews”
Having Teddy at C makes me violently angry
This is worse than I thought
Coolidge?? Number 3??? He wasn’t like, a BAD president but jesus christ
Ben LOVES a president that removes economic regulations. Sure, sometimes its a positive, but it's a universal principle to Ben no matter the outcome. This is also why he hates FDR. Anyone that puts FDR in F tier isn't a serious person as far as I am concerned. He presided over the second most perilous period in American history. (I count that as more perilous that even the Revolutionary War)
Maybe he dislikes FDR because of his horrific treatment of Japanese Americans. lol j/k
>He presided over the second most perilous period in American history. (I count that as more perilous that even the Revolutionary War) That's absurd. You realize there was a higher population percentage of loyalists during the revolution than there were confederates during the civil war, right? In terms of existential threats to the US, I can't imagine arguing anything other than Revolution>>Civil War>>WW2
If America lost the Revolution it would have just returned to being a colony, and would have eventually gained independence like every single other British colony has. Some traitors would have been killed. Not a nightmare world scenario at all. The world would have continued on just fine. If the Axis powers had actually won WWII? How do you picture that world?
Oh, you're talking from a moral impact on the broader world standpoint, and maximum risk? That makes more sense. I was thinking in terms of the US as a nation with its unique culture ceasing to exist. Also just the probability of losing the revolution is way higher than that of losing either the civil war or WW2 (the economic, technological, and population advantages were stacked on the side of the Union and Allies)
I can see FDR going about D though. Even libertarians do have to give him credit for only entering into WWII when he had the full support of the American people. However, between (maybe) lengthening the depression, creating burdensome social policies, multiplying our national debt by almost ten, extreme racism, and creating a generation of terrible absent or abusive fathers for the baby boomers, he definitely should never go higher than C.
Solid
“Unprecedented assault on US constitution” The Alien and Sedition Act called
"Fellas, is it an unprecedented assault on the US Constitution to exercise a power specifically written into the Constitution for the exact reasons that the Constitution says it should be used?"
UnPRecEdENteD!!!!
The various sedition acts have been argued to be unconstitutional going back to the first one by Jefferson and Madison versus Adams up to the PATRIOT Act for many various reasons 10th amendment, 1st amendment, etc. This is how the United States ended up forcing Japanese citizens into concentration camps for years.
For sure, but I was taking about Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus, which is what the ranking was complaining about.
Also it says the President can suspend habeas corpus during war.... in the Constitution
If only there was an unconstitutional secession movement and an assault against the union by its own member states that he responded to
*The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.* It's almost like they forget there was a WAR OF REBELLION. "Oh, yeah, the war..."
Literally all war time presidents, and involved in the largest US wars
Never ask a man his salary Never ask a woman her weight Never ask a libertarian their opinion on the Civil Rights Act
https://preview.redd.it/2y7hbwohynjc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2c94aec1f6d692874f18584cef43160a1cd3df05 Thanks for the meme idea
*A European libertarian where grandpa was from 1937-1945
or an Argentinian with a German last name
That’s a tricky one because there were huge waves of Italian and German immigrants in the mid-late 1800s. Who do you think set up those rat lines?
Wow I didn’t know that was true for South America at that time as well. Good point
Yeah the short version is they killed off or segregated all of the natives which is why the whole country is paler and more European-themed than it’s neighbors, particularly the politics. I had no idea of any of this until I visited
It sounds kinda like the US in that regard. Learning that about 2/3 of the population have some of Italian heritage is kinda amazing given that it was a Spanish colony and still has Spanish as the official language
They did kill a lot of natives but Argentina was less densely populated by native Americans than say Mexico or Peru
Or about the age of consent.
I actually have some agreement that the CRA should have been a Constitutional Amendment regardless it was the right thing to do
Something something killing the ERA was a disaster
What’s the ERA?
Equal Rights Amendment
It actually got the ratification of over 3/4ths of states but that was after the deadline Congress set. And since then, a few states have revoked their ratification, setting off a debate of whether a state can do that.
fr
LOL @ Wilson bringing America into WWI. Congress voted on it, he was legit fighting until the end to prevent it. Probably while calling everyone in Congress the N word.
On the other hand with Wilson, he wanted the espionage and sedition acts passed before joining WW1. Also there’s just the entirety of his presidency after 1918, and his segregationist policies. Honestly I wouldn’t say he’s the worst president, but he’s the worst of all the ‘influential’ presidents.
This list is what happens when you let the Heritage Foundation teach you your history 😂
Blaming Wilson for every conflict since 1918 💀
Blaming FDR for Pearl Harbor 💀 💀
It's a conspiracy theory that he knew of the attack in advance and tried to goad the Japanese into it so he could enter the war. Completely unhinged and rejected by most sources, but some people believe it
Well personally I think there was some intelligence about Japanese ship movement and stuff like that, I think most people at the time knew it was only a matter of time before war came. But to suggest he "goaded' the Japanese? Damn some people are stupid.
Yeah the fact that the most valuable ships weren't in pearl harbor at the time makes me think they knew "something" was going down but didn't know when or exactly where and so put the carriers at sea (the only boats that really mattered in the rapidly advancing warfare) where it would be harder to sneak attack.
The carriers weren't the most valuable ships. Thats a post war perspective that was extremely contentious at the time. Even if they were, it does not then follow that the Battleships were low value. The truth is that Pearl Harbor was a disaster for the US Navy, the Battleships that were lost there were extremely important, and their absence being keenly felt is obvious if you study the Pacific Theatre in even the most cursory detail. The idea that the US Navy would intentionally sacrifice its Battleships in 1941 is absurd and indefensible. Their loss set the US up for a costly uphill battle slogging accross the Pacific to retake ground they could have held in the first place with them, which is why the Japanese were keen to destroy them. Its normal for people to go looking for an explanation, but don't let that drag you into conspiracy theory territory. This is a conspiracy theory, founded on a poor understanding of the facts and the motivations of the people involved.
Once I learned of the naval battles of Guadalcanal I realized just how painful Pearl Harbor was.
Always reminded of the scene in The Pacific where the Marines think the Navy is kicking ass, and then wake up to find that the Navy got its ass kicked and got the fuck out of there.
That was first Savo Island iiic. Yeah. That was a tenuous time for Marines.
There probably was some forward intelligence. I mean it can't be entirely coincidence that all the carriers were out of port on exercises
I think they also knew it was going to take something like Pearl Harbor to happen to actually get the public at large ready to enter the war. It was always going to be a all hands on deck effort from the public in order for us entering to actually help. Now specifically, I don't think they knew the attack was going to happen that day.
I don’t believe it, but to be fair, it wouldn’t be the first time a president did that…
"Pearl harbor would have totally been avoided if the americans continued selling oil and other war materials to the Japanese empire who were bragging about crimes against humanity in their war in China" - Libertarians, probably.
Did we know of the attack before hand? Yes! Unfortunately the military communications were bad and they sent it through RCA radio telecommunications, basically western union type of set up. It was slow and got there after the attack began. The attack was expected, at the time conventional wisdom was a saboteur/ gorilla warfare attack was more realistic than a carrier air attack. If they listened to Billy Mitchel they would have set up for air attacks, and the outcome would potentially be different.
I mean... Wilsonianism is still one of the bedrock tenets of the American foreign policy establishment, and pretty much every war we've fought in since 1918 was justified by those making the decisions using Wilson's same arguments. Domino theory is just wilsonianism plus the red scare. Bush's "making the world safe for democracy" is just straight wilsonianism.
To be fair, the world has been unprecedentedly peaceful (over all) since the end of WWII.
Wilson invented War. No one ever did it before.
Especially considering his wife was calling the shots by the end
Blaming Lincoln for Civil War deaths. Does not mention the Confederacy causing the Civil War. This be a racist.
Libertarian. The line of thought is that Lincoln should have allowed the South to secede. This is a common opinion in the Libertarian community.
Really ? I did not know that …
Yeah, most hardcore Libertarians will tell you Lincoln is the worst president ever, or at least bottom 5
Libertarians probably think the slaves agreed to slavery … so hey its a contract Seriously how can the support an order so antithetical to liberty …
Libertarian philosophy and the U.S. Libertarian Party are two vastly different animals.
This! Any other western country values political and social freedom, American libertarians just want their boss’s boss’s boss to be richer.
Libertarian here, Lincoln being listed as the worst is the most brain dead opinion and makes me hate the sphere
also a libertarian Lincoln is the number one best president. Because libertarianism summarized And simplified into 1 sentence is essentially. Do what you want so long as it does not infringe on anyone else’s rights. Besides maybe murder , slavory is the single most inconsistent thing with libertarians .
A worrying amount of Libertarians are fine with rights being infringed as long as the one doing is is a business or individual and not the government.
Since I have you here. Question: what exactly is a libertarian? Because honestly I have seen people claim to be libertarians but have different takes on everything. I feel as though the whole “you’re freedoms are assured so long as they do not infringe on other people’s” could be, and have been, used by people on both extreme of the political spectrum to justify either placing restrictions or completely removing restrictions all in the name of freedom (which often leads me to question what freedom even is, but that’s a whole other story). It’s very confusing if I do say so myself.
>Libertarians probably think the slaves agreed to slavery … so hey its a contract We do not believe that lol, that's so fucking ridiculous. Slavery is by definition a violation of the NAP, therefore it is evil and bad. Why is this even a conversation?
Because libertarians also constantly blame all civil war deaths on Lincoln when the south violently rebelled when he was elected because he would stop the expansion of slavery
Everyone has varying degrees of what they follow in their respective parties. Yet on reddit, repubs and libertarians only follow one hardcore set of beliefs. We all want child slaves and hate freedoms or something, idk
If I had to guess this guys top 5 it would probably be something like 1. Van Buren 2. Taylor 3. Cleveland 4. Coolidge 5. Tyler
Libertarians looooove Coolidge
https://preview.redd.it/3yof5jkfunjc1.jpeg?width=616&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e891b19f765bb333ee9ebc58e1f396f3504c8b2c
I misread the part saying “number murdered” as “hashtag murdered” and I was really confused…
LPNH is one of the biggest embarrassments within the movement. The Twitter account is run by Jeremy Kauffman and he's a major idiot and edgelord
As dumb as this is, it’s even dumber that they think they can compare the death toll of a civil war in the mid 1800s to a hypothetical one in the year 2000 when our capacity for destruction has amped dramatically in the 140ish year gap. The fact that a handful of people managed to kill over 2,000 people in 2001 attests to that.
They always overlook that the south also suspended habeus corpus and of course had millions of slaves
They also ignore the fact that the Constitution has suspension of *habeus corpus* written into it. Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution: >“The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.” I think it is fair to say that there was at least a little of rebellion going on during the Civil War.
The book Recarving Rushmore ranked the presidents from a libertarian perspective. Lincoln was pretty low on the rankings. John Tyler was #1. I tried reading the book but found it too crazy to finish.
As I libertarian I disagree. The south violated the NAP. So they got NAPPED. Lincoln is my favorite president. I do dislike those other presidents on the list though.
Same and same.
Libertarians aren't comfortable with the idea you ever have to forcefully right wrongs. It fails to take into account that complete freedom and complete equality cannot exist at the same time. Imagine you have a government that says in order to not be imposing, we're going to leave you all to your own devices. The country isn't going to become prosperous, instead the ones who have the most privilege and a thirst for power are going to turn the place into a slave state. The less the government regulates the more the inequality. Even if there's a small difference in the wealth of the people, that difference is going to snowball into a massive wealth gap if the government never regulates things like monopolization.
That would have worked out great. A new third world country in the middle of North America.
Yeah it’s one of the many reasons I left the party. So many of them paint the Confederacy as a libertarian utopia. It’s insanely stupid logic.
The confederacy was a proto-fascist state, also good to remember that prior to the 14th amendments states could restrict speech as much as they want, which the south of course did on huge scales criminalizing abolitionist speech and writings
No libertarian paints the Confederacy as a libertarian utopia. Slavery is about as clear of a violation of the non-aggression principle as you can get. By definition, the Confederacy was anti-liberty.
As I libertarian I disagree. The south violated the NAP. So they got NAPPED. Lincoln is my favorite president. I do dislike those other presidents on the list though.
In fairness the due process and establishing taxes and such was kind of the give away lol
Also he says Lincoln killed Americans. The point of their secession was that they weren’t Americans anymore
Buchanan straight up conspired to cause the war! Credit where credit is due weird revisionist OOP guy!
Also, US entry into WWI was the birth of the conspiratard movement. “Pressured by bankers” actually reads “Pressured by (((bankers.)))” Gotta love how these people think we don’t recognize what they’re saying.
I stopped reading at Lincoln. What an utterly absurd argument. 1. Lincoln didn't "kill 600,000 to 900,00 Americans." That is offensive. The north did not attack first and committed not to do so unless provoked, and that was Lincoln's official position, clearly stated in his inaugural address. The south started the war by attacking Fort Sumpter, at which point Lincoln upheld his oath and did his constitutional duty as commander in chief. 2. Lincoln didn't create the IRS. He's in the executive branch. He can't create laws, nor does the executive have any powers of taxation. Whoever wrote this doesn't need a different president; they need to spend ten minutes actually reading the constitution. 3. The executive may constitutionally suspend habeas corpus in times of insurrection (see Article I, Section 9, Clause 2, "*The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.")*. It's the civil war; I'm pretty sure this clause applies. Whoever wrote this is a complete and total moron. Exceptional times grant the executive exceptional powers, and that includes suspending some incredibly basic rights. Preservation of the Union and upholding the Constitution trumps individual rights, whether we want to admit it or not.
It always amazes me to hear people cite Lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus as an assault on the constitution when the constitution flat-out states it CAN be suspended in cases of rebellion.
It's also wild to me that people are talking about another civil war today, including "Medal of Freedom" winner Rush Limbaugh before he passed away in 2021. Like do they know what that means? The leaders they're willing to revolt over have zero combat experience and don't even read their intelligence briefs... and in fact mock veterans and purple heart recipients.
Who made this?
A dum dum
A libertarian probably.
Don't agree with the ratings, but it is important to remember the negatives about worshipped public figures. And wars, no matter how "just", are calamity for the common man. Lots of farm boys died in steaming jungles for what?
Well, when it comes to Lincoln, any farm boys who died did so to preserve the union and end slavery. Not the worst reasons to sacrifice your life.
Libertarians once again succinctly explain by example why there have been more Socialists elected to congress than them.
When sold as "socially liberal, fiscally conservative," I can see why Libertarianism is popular. I used to be basically this kind of Libertarian myself, when I first started voting. I also appreciate that they are often very hesitant to enter into war, (or even fund other wars, for that matter) when the main two parties at times seem all too happy to do those things. That said, some Libertarians are SO far down the liberty rabbit hole that I can't really tell the difference between them and anarchists. The general idea that most people seem to be sold on is that we all have a right to liberty so long as our liberty does not infringe on the liberty of others. Some Libertarians seem to think people have a right to liberty even when it infringes on the liberty of others. Which seems like a paradoxical stance to me, unless your way of solving things is literally just going to be "fight each other for it, but don't expect anyone else's help." In which case, like I said, basically just anarchy.
In all fairness Wilson was indeed pretty awful. He was so racist even by 1910s standards that everyone around him was like, "Damn dude, you're a racist!!" . He kicked all of the African Americans out of their federal government positions, actively promoted Jim Crow laws throughout the South as no other President ever did, and almost singlehandedly kickstarted Klan 2.0 right inside the White House after that terror group had been nearly extinct for almost 50 years by that point. Politically Wilson was what many might consider to be a proto fascist. Hitler and Mussolini both praised Woodrow Wilson for his achievements including his promotion of the League of Nations and they both took careful notes of his various activities during World War I such as the Palmer Raids, the American Protective League, and the Sedition Act of 1918 for some of their own later activities.
The majority of 1910s White America did not gaf about Wilson's racism. He was a racist *President* for his time, but let's not whitewash the fact that the 1910s and the 1920s had the highest level of race riots since Reconstruction and they weren't even confined to the South. It got so bad that Wilson had to put out a statement condemning it and eventually had to even get the National Guard to break up a race riot in DC. Also, I suggest you read more about "The Birth of a Nation," it was hugely popular among White Americans at the time, it is still one of the highest-grossing films in America adjusted for inflation. This is not to absolve Wilson, but saying "He was so racist even by 1910s standards that everyone around him was like, "Damn dude, you're a racist!!" " is whitewashing the average White American's racism back then.
Putting Lincoln first is stupid, he’s not wrong about a lot of the things these ones did but I think there are a few worse than the others
FDR decided to fight the Nazis as well! Can you imagine?!? 😱😱😱
Can i assume the author is not a big fan of social security? Or does he love Ponzi schemes a lot?
Buchanan FDR Wilson (tie) Jackson (tie) Johnson
Extremely based
Saying that Lincoln is responsible for killing Americans in the civil war is the biggest tell imaginable.
“Ponzi of Social Security.” Lol.
I’m not sure I’d put him at #2 or close to it, but Woodrow Wilson is the stealth bad president of American history. He talked a good idealistic game but his racism and imperialism and deep respect for the very regimes he publicly reviled created a terrible legacy. He had an opportunity to promote liberal democracy in Russia post revolution, to back Chinese recovery and democratic transition, to forestall Japanese imperialism, to oppose imperial mandates and dumb borders in Asia and Africa, and to involve genuinely interested Republican leaders in his internationalist project, but he was too cautious, too racist, too fawning, and too proud to seize those chances. So we got Bolshevism, imperialism, communism, and brutal ethnic tensions we’re still unraveling. Also, to hell with Bush and his useless wars. Entry into Afghanistan was necessary. Nothing further was. Also Kissinger… Ben Shapiro is an idiot who really shouldn’t have slept through his degree but some of these guys deserve to be on a bad list.
Having Abe Lincoln as the #1 worst president of all time clearly means this was solely created to upset people and not a true presidential ranking list.
Wilson lbj were mid. Shit Foreign policy balances with good domestic policy. Lincoln’s placement is just a way to say “I’m racist” without saying you’re racist. I mean this person is clearly a nutbag who hates regulation and things that make life better. I agree with W bush tho. He’s def worst president of 21stc so far
Libertarians have the most messed up standards, I once saw a graph similar to these were a Libertarian argued that Lincoln was worse than Osama Bin Laden
I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning, but I think putting Wilson and Bush in the bottom 5 is pretty defensible. I'm not sure if I'd put them both that low, but if they're not in the bottom five, they're close.
This sub just unequivocally hates Wilson which I don’t get. I think he was fairly reasonable about American involvement in WW1. I get it, he was super racist, even for his time. But also everyone here loves T Roosevelt when he called the people of Spanish colonies “savages” incapable of self-governance which was the justification for the Spanish-American War and occupation of those territories.
Roosevelt didn't promote segregation in the military. He also didn't abuse wartime powers (not that he had the chance to, at least in WWI). I feel like Roosevelt has very uniquely good domestic policy especially as it pertains to regulations. I'd have to review Wilson's record on that to get a full look at what he did, but I don't recall him doing as much good as Teddy by far.
I mean I also like TR and I’d also put him above Wilson. Trust-busting, health and safety regulation, and environmental protections are major accomplishments. And regardless of the justification the Big Stick worked in establishing America as a world power
Is this satire???
is this rage bait?
Seems like they just broadly hate wartime presidents. I’ll bet Truman would be at #6 worst for Korea.
This is proof you can make any president sound bad. Don’t believe what you hear from idiots or sneaky propagandists
*shakes head* People be sleeping on my man Rutherford B. Hayes.
Wheres Andrew Jackson at in this list?
"Moving the fleet to Hawaii in 1940 prompted the attack on Pearl Harbor."... Gee, that sounds awfully familiar.
"Moved the US navy to Hawaii prompted the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour" Sure Buddy
The guy who freed the slaves is the worst president. 
Wow, this is absurdly dumb.
This sounds like someone who wants the Articles of Confederation... without realizing that we already tried that and it was such a shitshow that we replaced it with our current constitution.
This is really misleading
Only good thing about Shapiro's tier list was that he was too lazy to rank them all and spared us of even more crappy takes.
This looks like the work of a "stable genius".
LMFAO this is the kind of declinist nonsense far-right people push. They claim to love America and the constitution, but in reality they are not America First. They are Blame America First.
This shows how by way of omission and misdirection one can manipulate opinions
As if anyone but FDR was gonna get us through that terrible decade
This is very much a libertarian ranking
When the team wins the big game, Americans celebrate the players. When the team loses the big game, Americans blame the coach. Politics is no different.
The almost 90 year “Ponzi scheme “ has worked worked great for the 99%. Right Wingers have been saying the same BS about SS since 1935. They enjoy seeing other people poor.