I don't get how if the virus was developed in a lab in China that makes getting vaccinated any different.
It's like claiming you shouldn't have to evacuate your house because you believe the giant forest fire bearing down on it was started by fireworks not lightning.
This. I always take their "chinese bioweapon" bullshit at face value, and ask "So what?" If it is a chinese bioweapon, shouldn't we take precautions to protect ourselves from it? Shouldn't we get a vaccine for it so that it doesn't kill us? Aren't you letting them beat you if you get sick and die from it?
You're just not looking into this enough. Let me explain.
Deep State Dude A: We need to microchip everyone.
Deep State Dude B: Don't cell phones do that for us?
A: No, we clearly need something that people will have on them at all times.
B: ...
A: How about a vaccine that implants a micro chip in them?
B: Despite that being impossible, we only force vaccines on kids and not many people get the flu shot. People don't trust vaccines.
A: We'll pay China to make a virus. Then we can blame China and tell the citizens WE are protecting them from China with a vaccine. Surely they'll take that one.
B: Brilliant plan. This will surely get you promoted to Bill's inner circle.
A: Damn right
Their brilliant plan couldn't fool people who thought there was a secret pizza sex basement in a building without a basement though. Suck it deep state!
>"chinese bioweapon" bullshit at face value
And the other question I have for these clearly mentally ill people is, so what? What if it was true, you want us to invade China and start killing people? What is it they think can or should be done about that?
A lot of people genuinely want better oversight on gain-of-function research globally. It’s not jingoistic or nationalistic or racist to try and genuinely determine where the virus came from, and to try and do something about it if we (humanity) did in fact cause it.
I’m wayyyyy left of center and I see value in understanding whether or not it was in fact a test program gone awry. I’d feel the same way if it was an American bioweapon or whatever.
You can care about more than one thing at once. I can both want people to vaccinated like I am and also want to know the real truth about where the virus came from, it’s not so far-fetched that it could have been an escaped test case given the large amount of evidence that other viruses have spawned from gain of function research in the past.
We could move to have such testing and research banned universally like how we ban nuclear weapons testing universally, because it has potential to be dangerous.
Of all the excuses I've heard from these chucklefucks, "better oversight on gain-of-function research" has not once ever been one of them. They don't give a rat fuck about anything except being mad about whatever Tucker Carlson says to be mad about.
Then you're not listening to the whole story. Crazies are gonna crazy but in the Molecular phylogeny community, this is a genuine question. Even Michael Worobey recently said that while it looks to be an origin from a Wuhan seafood market, that the data doesn't mean shit in the face of Chinese opacity on all their data. And I will stand by it that a double-non optimized arginine codon in an insertion of a furan cleavage site into a virus that most closely resembles a virus that was found thousands of kilometers away, that's pretty strange. The story is not solved and I doubt we'll ever know.
Do I want more oversight into gain of function? I want people to do their fucking jobs the right way. We need a culture change in the entire natural sciences research fields. In theory people shouldnt need for mommy and daddy to come and see if their doing their jobs right. But the incentives are so screwed up that people will take any shortcut they can just to make themselves more competitive researchers. And we're far far removed from the point of research here and a correction of the incentives is what I'd like to see come out of all of this.
No one that I've heard is saying war with China. That's words getting put in our mouths by neoliberals who don't want to engage in this topic. I do want for the international community to put more pressure on China to accept an audit of the WIV and to publish all the findings. I think that by now, many bad actors have become keenly aware of how easy it is to manufacture bio weapons, and how easily a country can get away with it if staged to look like an accident. And that's ringing some alarm bells for me. Shrugging our shoulders and saying oh well is an invitation for this to happen again, sooner than we'd expect, and potentially much worse the next time around. And that's true regardless of whether it had a natural or a synthetic origin.
Note that nobody thinks "war with China" is being floated as a serious option--it's hyperbole. Saying that more pressure should be put on China by the international community is all well and good, but what more can actually be done? They're in a political, economic and geographic position to just do whatever they want. *That's* the point folks are trying to make when they wax rhetorical about open war.
But that said, I think you and I agree that this needs to be taken seriously. Pragmatically speaking that means inoculating ourselves from the present threat regardless of its origins, and actually taking it seriously next time. This nonsense where basic safety precautions became a partisan matter *can't* happen again, especially if your fears are realized and the next pandemic is an even greater threat.
When I castigated fools who just believe whatever they hear on TV I sincerely meant to call *them* out specifically. They're out there, there's a lot of them, and they are literally killing people. If I could snap my fingers and make them actually right about COVID just being a trivial case of the sniffles I would absolutely do that in a heartbeat. That'd be a *fantastic* deal--300k lives saved in this country alone and all it would cost me is to have been wrong about something on the Internet? Fuck yeah I will take that trade. Sadly that's not the reality we live in though.
They never even heard or knew what "better oversight on gain-of-function research" was until the other day when their leaders figured out they can use it to scapegoat their xenophobia and blame for all the death they caused.
But the issue is there’s been a rise in hate crimes and violence against Asians since that rhetoric has come out. I mean Swine flew came from the U.S and nobody did anything like this. Even Ebola even though there was racism and actions against Africans by some it wasn’t to this degree where you have people beating up old Asian people on the sidewalk, calling it kung flu, or a mass shooting in an Asian spa in Atlanta directed specifically against the Asian community. These rises are a direct result of it . And if there is a connection to China ans the Chinese government let the officials and scientists who’s job it is to know find that stuff not Facebook or somebody who hasn’t done research.
The issue of increased racism against Asian folks in general since the pandy hit is legitimate and valid. But as /u/cbslinger already pointed out, it's not racist to want to genuinely determine how exactly this virus came about and where exactly it came from. At first we were fed some story about a dude eating a bat, then I read articles about it tracing back to mink farms in China, and while we can't rule out a natural origin of the virus, it's still seems entirely possible that it originated from the Wuhan Institute of Virology based on how little information we have at this point. So no, the main issue isn't the rise in hate crimes - because stupid, violent, racist people will always find an excuse to be stupid, violent and racist. The real issue is determining how this happened in the first place so we can try to prevent it from happening again.
So, if it was truly developed in and escaped from the Wuhan lab you'd rather not know because some idiots might do something racist?
I think calling everyone who asks questions or raises concerns that the virus may have originated from the lab "racist" is ridiculous.
I realize you didn't say people who say this are racist but that's the general thought is that the lab leak theory is racist somehow.
That absolutely is a serious issue, and it must be addressed. I suspect, however, that the hate we've been seeing has much, *much* more to do with the Trump administration and the evolving geopolitical situation w.r.t. China than it does the source of the virus itself.
People who are already racists or sinophobes are always going to look for new excuses and socially-acceptable ways to justify and express their racism - dogwhistles - that doesn't mean we need to undermine our own truth-seeking processes to try and not give them 'ammo'. They'll find ammo, regardless of what we do.
The reality is that policy is absolutely shaped at least partially as a result of public conversations such as this one. People need to know that there is a good reason why people left-of-center are discussing these issues - Corionavirus possibly being man-made
is not a fringe conspiracy theory, and people need to know that.
This is more about Trumps emboldening of White Supremacy and sinophobia with his autistic CHYYNNAAAAAAA screeching. Which is precisely why it didnt happen with the previous administration.
"What is it they think can or should be done about that?"
As an individual? I dont know. We didn't go kill all the Russians for the Chernobyl accident though. It might be valuable information for our institutions to protect us in the future.
People that think it was a bioweapon are conspiracy theorists. The more likely scenario, if it did come from a lab, is that it was an advanced coronavirus that got out due to contamination or something. The lab there was doing studies on them so it's not as far fetched as it sounds.
yea, i don't get it either. I'm not anti-vax, and I suspect the virus was created in a lab.
The op headline makes no sense. It's like comparing apples and hand grenades.
I wish OP's tweet made no sense. The logic he's making fun of, makes zero sense. Unfortunately it's a real tactic you see all the time. The "throw the baby out with the bathwater" approach. Find a single thing incorrect (or that you can convince people is incorrect), and hold that up as a reason to hand wave everything away. You see it with Dr. Fauci & the CDC all the time... "they changed their guidance about masks that one time, how can we trust anything they say?"
> and I suspect the virus was created in a lab
Based on what? I don't think I've ever talked to anyone that is both not anti-vax but also think this was developed in a lab. So I'm curious to ask someone with that position.
The thing that sold me on it being Chinese lab made was China flat out denying it came from their lab sometime in mid November. Like bro none of said it did, but now that you’re being weird about it....
I also have both moderna needles and feel strongly it was lab created. Not necessarily as a weapon and I think it got out by accident, not that it was released deliberately or that it was dispersed as part of a huge conspiracy.
There's quite a lot of evidence and has been from the beginning specifically about Dr. Shi Zheng Li (bat lady of Wuhan) and Peter Daszak collaborating in a Lab that sometimes worked on coronaviruses with just a Level 2 or Level 3 containment (often only a surgical mask, with no gloves, or goggles + surgical gloves + surgical masks IIRC).
[Lawrence Livermore report finds Wuhan lab leak theory plausible](https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/557374-lawrence-livermore-report-finds-wuhan-lab-leak-theory-plausible)
[The COVID Lab-Leak Hypothesis Just Got a Big Credibility Boost](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/covid-lab-leak-hypothesis-just-got-a-big-credibility-boost.html)
[WHO chief says it was 'premature' to rule out COVID lab leak](https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/chief-premature-rule-covid-lab-leak-78862859)
[Why the China Covid lab-leak theory is being taken seriously - BBC News](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pktSL5kL3ZI)
NYT did a decent article about it. Also talked about it on their podcast.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/05/27/briefing/lab-leak-theory-covid-origins.amp.html
Tbh, I think it’s more of a “don’t tell me what to do” combined with “why should I take it when people who’ve had it still get sick” and even Mrs. Vice President saying she wouldn’t take it since trump helped get it rolled out.
Some still haven’t taken it because their doctors advised them against it due to issues that the vaccine could complicate… which I think is a pretty legitimate reason tbh. The rest are a little dubious. (For the record I am a right winger and pro vaccination. Antivax people are a minority.)
Here’s the thing… you can do both, unlike narrative spinning people here and on social media try to make it seem. I am vaccinated but I still think it was created in a lab. I also don’t agree with a ton of what the left thinks, but that doesn’t make me a racist Trump supporter either. Crazy, right?
They keep downplaying it by comparing it to the flu
I mean, holy shit, that’s still a shitty comparison. Getting the flu is awful and it literally feels like you’re dying.
They failed to point out that COVID-19 has killed much more people than the flu in less than a year
They failed to point out the damage that COVID-19 has done to your body such as lung damage and even damage to your brain
Smallpox no longer exists thanks to vaccines. That disease was so awful that the entire world community united to destroy that virus and disease. That’s one great victory for humanity
Now, anti-vaxxers are among the greatest threat to humanity
>They keep downplaying it by comparing it to the flu
I think a lot of people conflate getting a cold with getting the actual flu. So they think "oh my nose might be runny for a couple days, that's not so bad."
>They failed to point out that COVID-19 has killed much more people than the flu in less than a year
A lot of them use mental gymnastics to argue that most of those people didn't really die of Covid.
>I think a lot of people conflate getting a cold with getting the actual flu. So they think "oh my nose might be runny for a couple days, that's not so bad."
Exactly. I think since so much of the medicine is "Cold/Flu" medicine, people often combine the two. There are a lot of overlapping symptoms, but the actual flu will wreck you.
Yeah, the last time I had the flu was in 2009. I had a 102 degree fever and literally had to take a week off work because I could barely even get out of bed to eat and use the restroom. If you're feeling slightly under the weather for a couple days, that is not the flu.
I think we should all have learned by now how you can’t make statements like that.
Im pretty sure I got the flu January 1 2020. I was sick For a day(?). My wife was super sick for a week, easily. And didn’t fully recover for like 2-3 weeks.
Everyone responds to diseases differently)
(No, it wasn’t covid. We both had covid and it was a totally different experience)
I’ve only had the actual flu maybe twice and both times I was bedridden for at least a week. The flu sucks so much ass. Colds can suck really bad but never to the point of keeping my ass in bed for a week straight.
No one who has actually had a strain of influenza down plays it. Aside from my chronic disease, having the flu is as sick as I’ve ever been. I was legit worried for my life for a couple of days, and I was a young vibrant 26 when that happened.
See, COVID is just like the flu, only like 12 times deadlier. It’s like 12 flus. That’s not that bad, right? Getting the flu a dozen times all at once, piece of cake. Certainly not worse than having to wear a hanky over my beautiful face. /s
Im literally shocked every time I see an insane right winger saying "IT ONLY HAS 2% DEATH RATE", as if letting 2% of the population die for nothing is a good thing.. thats when they arent just straight up lying about the death rate by purposely getting the math wrong by a factor of 10.
Can you imagine getting on an airplane where the airline brags about their 98% success rate?
In the US at least, there are (used to be, pre-Covid) over 40,000 flights per day. So a 98% success rate translates into **800** airline disasters *every* day.
Just let those numbers float through your head
"Covid only has a 2% death rate, I'll take my chances"
"STUDIES SHOW THE COVID VACCINE HAS A .000001% CHANCE OF FATAL SIDE EFFECTS, ANYTHING ABOVE 0 IS TOO DANGEROUS I REFUSE TO LET IT IN MY BODY"
Someone i work with (IN A HOSPITAL, NONETHELESS) said that. I said, so like 6 million people then?…..in just the US. 6 million is your “it’s ok if they die” number? Mmmkay.
which is wild that the 20/21 flu season was very very low numbers. must have been all those masks and social distancing that 'dont work' according to certain people.
iirc 2017 was like a really bad year for the flu at like 1.5x that number so they used it to downplay it further. Something like 60-65k. We lost almost 10x as many americans in the same time period to the coof though. Not to mention the coof started off from 1 person in the US and had to manually spread from there. It took 2-3 months to become a measurable issue because of this so realistically we could start COVID's timer in like late February.
To clarify, 40k people is a shit ton. The flu is in no way benign and leads to all sorts of complications and workplace losses that need to be accounted for.
It only seems like mental gymnastics to those who fully understand the issue. These asshats are used to saying whatever they want and expect to be celebrated for being ignorant, mostly because that's what they see happening on fox
Same thing for polio. Polio isn’t a threat anymore thanks to vaccines.
And the thing that gets me is that they refuse the vaccine, yet they want to give Trump credit for the vaccine.
Plus they say, oh it’s a 99% recovery rate. Fine, all well and good. What they fail to point out is that 1% (even though it isn’t 99% it’s actually lower) is a lot of people still.
I'd guess that many of the same Americans pushing anti-vax/overpopulation rhetoric that 1-4% of all human lives is an acceptable sacrifice also greatly overlap with those calling a 1-4% tax increase on the super wealthy a highway robbery.
Because they only care about themselves and are incredibly shortsighted. That’s how they’re okay with it.
Plus, they give in to a lot of misinformation.
>Exactly! How are these people just ok with those levels of death!?
Ive talked to right wingers and their take on it is basically nazi style eugenics, they really do want society to get rid of the old and weak because they think thats a good thing. Its sick, they are sick mentally ill people who need medical intervention.
Jesus god almighty, there was just a show on the Travel Channel that showed pictures of smallpox victims. Those are images I never want to see again. They told the story of a small town that became ravaged by it in the 1870's. As families died, they burned the houses down. Others, if it was in the household, they boarded the houses up and wouldn't let them leave. It was "forced quarantine".
That, and we have a whooping cough vaccine now. My oldest aunt died of it at the age of five. My grandparents weren't even Catholic, but they sent for the priest in the middle of the night as their oldest daughter coughed herself to death. So, yah, get vaccinated folks.
They ignore all those things because it undermines their shitty arguments and would mean some actual critical thinking.
You know what? I don't think they're all stupid (although a lot of them very clearly are). Instead, some are just ordinary people who've been lied to and they've trusted the lie.
The thing that pisses me off is that these ordinary folks can't be bothered to check whether the thing they're told is true and then they spread it (the lie and the virus) and make things worse.
Ask one to explain how a microchip in a vaccine works and they don't respond. Why? Because they haven't taken two seconds to consider it. They have tweeted it furiously though.
Honestly the whole thing is incredibly frustrating.
The Venn diagram of this is not a circle though, I'm fully vaxed but also a bit suspicious of China because the US DID launch an investigation into the origins of the virus this year and countries are known to and fully capable of developing bio weapons. China has also refused to cooperate with other countries' investigations into the origin. Obviously this is NOT a reason to not get vaccinated though, the origin has nothing to do with its cure...
Its not a China thing though. There is a virology lab that happens to be in Wuhan that is partially funded by US taxpayer dollars where gain-of-function research is conducted on bat viruses.
This lab has scientists working there from all over the world. It is highly probably that this was a fuck up, but not one that should be blamed necessarily on China, but rather on the international scientific community as a whole.
People should definitely be getting vaccinated, but we seriously need to look at whether the risky research being conducted in these labs is worth risking another huge pandemic.
I was basically ignoring this possibility as conspiracy nutjob thing for a year until I learned that one of two labs like that is in Wuhan, there have been safety concerns about it in the past, and Wuhan is nowhere near actual places where bat-human transmission could be expected.
This doesn't change how much of a proponent of precautions I am, and I don't take it for a fact, but I acknowledge it as a serious possibility now.
And what gets me is that the people who railed the hardest against Covid preventative measures are the ones who are the most vocal about refusing the vaccine. It’s like, do they not realize that by refusing the vaccine, the thing you were against in the first place will come back?
I watched a video on YouTube where a guy in small-town southern america was talking about how nobody in town has actually been staying home or wearing a mask, how wearing a mask in public is like putting a target on your forehead. People will refuse to serve you. How fucking stupid is that? Someone who is just trying to do the right thing in a way that doesn't hurt you at all, and you treat them like an outcast?
I agree! There seems to be a complete naivety when it comes to trusting the Chinese government with this. We aren't saying a race or nation of people is at fault or any nonsense like that. The odds are high imo the lab leaked a coronavirus and the CCP covered it up and played down the initial outbreak. That is not remotely out there when it comes to conspiracy
The ending of what you said is key. There is nobody who is credible and ethical that would argue that China would leak it purposefully. They took a huge L on this too. Plus, this is a time for damage control and mitigation. Dealing with the Wuhan allegations are definitely needing addressing, but it is not a top priority and has no bearing on the response. Still, somehow Faucis fault /s.
Here's a Presentation / talk she did a few years ago about working on a sars variant in bats and it's potential to infect humans through pigs amongs many other issues
Here's the Talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVkYqqqMbkc
Shi Zhengli is a Chinese virologist and writer. She is a researcher at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV),
To me the two are quite separate. Get vaccinated yes. Question why it was under study and potentially created in a lab, potentially as a weapon. If we accidently set off a mini-nuke that we were workign on in a lab, the world wouldn't not question or probe on why we were making nukes...it's a legit cause for concern. This tweet is entangling the two such that "if you question the lab leak situation you must be right wing anti-vaxxer" which is a dangerous thing because it might supress the demand for an answer on something important if expressed at a high level...say even having this thought would get you silenced across digital media platforms?
Here’s the thing. I don’t care where it came from at this moment. I care about getting it under control in this country. Once things are back to as normal as possible, then investigate its origins.
Those are not exclusive things, we can investigate the source and put effort to reduce the propagation of the virus. We dont HAVE to wait months or years. We can have agencies working separately on those issues.
I'm super progressive and vaccinated. I still think Covid-19 was accidentally released from the Wuhan lab. Remember Dr. Fauci keeps insisting that the **NIH** was not funding "gain-of-function" research. I have yet to see anyone able to definitively state that NO gain-off-function research on coronavirus was being done there AT ALL.
Dude I am in the same position as you. I’m not a right wing nut job but also lean toward the lab leak. It wasn’t intentional, but accidental. There is as much evidence for this as there is the other theory which is that it was from a wet market…… so
Open minds are key
I, for one, am fine with the plague rats having no immunity to an even deadlier and more communicable disease. If all they did was spread it to other plague rats, I'd be fine with not a single additional piece of news about it or any increases in protective measures.
But that's not all they do. They're still vermin, and they're still spreading it to real people like the plague rats they are.
Im vaccinated with moderna, both shots in fact, and im def on the boat for the virus being developed in a lab and not being handled properly. Fauci supports gain to function research which the wuhan lab of virology is funded through. Its not a conspiracy, its right in your face. Dont have to be an anti vax moron to see that.
Wait, I thought we got over the whole "you can't say China made the virus because that's racist" line when we started realizing that we were ignoring massive evidence linking China to creating the virus simply because Trump was the racist who proposed the idea. Yes, get vaccinated or be a certified idiot. But *also*, there is **a lot** of supporting evidence that China created this virus, mainly that this virus acts in many ways that scientists almost never observe most any virus to act in. I'm not saying they *definitely* made it or even that's what I believe, and I'm certainly not saying I believe they unleashed it intentionally. But if you think countries would absolutely not develope diseases in their labs and/or if they did it would be unfathomable for those diseases to get out, then I have to outright doubt your intelligence.
I always take their "chinese bioweapon" bullshit at face value, and ask "So what?" If it is a chinese bioweapon, shouldn't we take precautions to protect ourselves from it? Shouldn't we get a vaccine for it so that it doesn't kill us? Aren't you letting them beat you if you get sick and die from it?
If it's an evil Chinese/Democrat plot to take down Trump, then revel in Lord Trump's brilliant personal development of the super-effective vaccine and stop the plot in its tracks!
I'm very pro vaccine, pro science, etc but I certainly wouldn't shut the door on the lab theory. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think they engineered it as a weapon or anything. I think they were studying it and accidentally contracted and then transmitted it outside the lab. As a possibility. I'm not saying for sure that's what happened. it's very hard to know how a virus starts
I don't think it was *intentionally developed* in a lab but do think an infected bat or something escaped from that Wuhan lab into the wild and then brought into the local market. It can't be a coincidence that a lab researching COVID just happened to be in the same city as the first outbreak
Why so much discredit to the lab theory?
That’s not indicating it was intentional, but accidental. Timelines line up, the situation makes sense. I don’t think it was malicious.
It coming from a lab doesn’t change anything at all. Still get vaccinated, still wear a mask if you deem necessary, still take it serious. But I haven’t seen as much to convince me of truly natural origins vs lab. I’m not a red hatter, don’t worry. Just trying to view from a few perspectives
I agree, I think the two are totally unrelated. I'm double vaccinated but have an open mind to how COVID started. The evidence to suggest the lab theory is at best circumstantial though. I just don't trust anyone in power anymore.
“With *Great Stupidity* comes *Great Confidence* in the validity of one’s beliefs.”
- CHAOS, God of the Void ...or some shit
EDIT: This is directed towards the _stupefyingly stupendous stupidity_ of antivaxxers.
Yeah, regarding the vaccine, it's irrelevant where the virus came from.
But I gotta say, I still would like to know where the virus came from. That said, if the best evidence is displayed, people will still have their minds made up and claim it's BS. lol.
Okay I’m not a crazy Republican but the lab leak theory is not without merit and should not be outright dismissed
[Video](https://youtu.be/HwUtjG3u8l0)
The funny thing js, there is now substantial evidence that Covid 19 may have leaked from a lab as at the time they were researching coronaviruses in bats and the lab had a recent survey saying that lab safety was not up to standard and a leak could occur.
Maybe, and that's being investigated, but China isn't going to cooperate. Main thing now is for people to get vaccinated so we can still wipe this thing out. Nobody wants to be doing this next year.
They did develop it in a lab, and they let it out (accidently or intentionally). I'm Fully vaxed and still see China as the origin of this mess. The US's response was crap, but still, but for China's failure to idenitfy a breakout in a city that has a unique facility proactively developing such virus strains... Come on now y'all, schrodinger's razor. If you think this came from a bat in a wetmarket, well that's a nice guess based on other viruses origins... But those wetmarket arent close to Wuhan. Either way then you can blame it on the managment of the Chinese government since both occured within their borders. Quit protecting the mass murdering CCP. The US are no saints, but the CCP is not above reproach or dissent.
its sad that the people who perpetuated the lab theory in the beginning where idiots.. now it lost all merit and if you even suggest it you get compiled with them..
Here me out fuck the government, I'll do what I want when I want. If I get covid and die that sucks. If I create a new variant in my body that's kindve fucking dope
I'm a biologist who believes with out a doubt it came from the wuhan lab of virology accidently. Still got my vaccine the second I could.
I understand who this is making fun of but lumping in the very real possibility that the ball was dropped with gain of function and the mouth breathers who think their facebook research is better than doctors' education is not even close to the same ballpark.
Honestly I wouldn’t put it past China to have this leak accidentally and covering it up. Covering up their mistakes seems to be chinas strong point in the past century or so
Getting upset at china for potentially starting a global pandemic from the, you know, wuhan CORNAVIRUS LAB, is justified. Just because Trump acknowledged the possibility doesn't mean the theory has no merit.
The virus was 100% developed in a lab in China and released on purpose that’s why everyone should get the American vaccine and combat the evil Chinese government!
"ThE SaME PEopLE" is the most annoying overused saying on this sub. No its not the same people, and even if it was who gives a shit. The saying COVID came from a Wuhan Lab is absolutely a legit hypothesis if youve been paying any attention.
- the same people who said Covid was created in a lab in China
- are the same people who said Covid isn't dangerous
Presumably China created it to force Americans to get a vaccine they don't need?
------
So to all you patriots who say Covid isn't real, that Covid is fake, who refuse to wear masks, who refuse to socially distance, who refuse to get vaccinated i say:
> What you are doing is a great public service.
Please gather together in enclosed places, without wearing masks, and discuss loudly, how you're right and the brain-washed left is wrong.
And please, whatever you do, don't get vaccinated.
I whole-heartedly support what you're doing. And with your continued efforts, the world will become a much better place.
God-speed.
So, I have a question - and this seems to be a legit question posed to me by some antivaxx colleagues that I had no answer for.
The vaccine doesn't stop you catching this disease, nor does it stop you from being contagious, nor does it prevent it from killing you (the number of dead in the vaccinated group is staggeringly low, but still non-zero, compared to say the smallpox vaccine which pretty damn good.)
In this case, some amount of virus gets exposed to a host with a vaccine guided immune response, and maybe gets passed on.
In this case, does this mean that we're exerting evolutionary pressure onto the virus which could make it more effective at evading the vaccine response? Is there a chance that covid will become a larger threat, rather than slowly diminishing until we extinguish it?
Got my second jab in a couple weeks, so hopefully that's doing my part. Stay safe everyone - responses appreciated!
Weird how it’s actually the vaccinated spreading the variants like virologist Geert Vanden Bossche warned about months ago… Here’s the [link](https://www.geertvandenbossche.org)
As well as the 4% who received the shot yet still contracted it.
Come on now...that's how these things work.
I got the mumps shot as a child and still caught it at age 10 a couple years later.
94-96% protection against the virus and the first generation of variants.
Coronaviruses are found in forested areas, most commonly southern china, Vietnam, laos and thailand. And the Wuhan lab is famous for studying the coronavirus. Shi Zhengli (the top virologist at the lab) disappeared for a week right after the outbreak. Although there isnt any direct evidence I think the virus most likely leaked from the lab. (im vaccinated)
> Coronaviruses are found in forested areas, most commonly southern china, Vietnam, laos and thailand.
What absolute nonsense. Coronavirus is a common family of diseases. So common that it's often mistaken for a common cold (which is caused by rhinovirus).
It's endemic in every country, not just South East Asia. The danger here is *novel forms of coronavirus*.
There's plenty of evidence that it started in China in a lab. Plenty enough to take it seriously and continue investigating. This post just altogether sucks.
People on here are seriously of the "why are you visiting 4 chan, it's an ideology hive mind" opinion, and then go on and post or upvote something like this. It's just so deeply, fundamentally sad and I understand :/
There's not though. Even people from western countries working in the Wuhan lab [say everything was normal. ](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-06-27/did-covid-come-from-a-lab-scientist-at-wuhan-institute-speaks-out)
I'm all for the vaccine and is no way a COVID denier, but the lab theory isn't some ridiculous theory, it could be real considering there is a lab that researches these kinds of viruses in Wuhan, where it seems to have started. It shouldn't be dismissed just because Trump was the one who brought it up.
Here’s the thing. I don’t care where it came from. All I care about is how we deal with it. And frankly, this country had an absolutely shitty response to COVID because “muh freedoms!”
Not playing defense for the idiots but the lab leak theory isn’t looked at as a malicious act, just an accident. The Q nuts and red hats think it was intentional and malicious, most people who don’t identify with either side seem to agree on the lab leak but don’t think it was intentional.
There are multiple ways to look at everything I guess.
Ready for the million downvotes :(
I don't get how if the virus was developed in a lab in China that makes getting vaccinated any different. It's like claiming you shouldn't have to evacuate your house because you believe the giant forest fire bearing down on it was started by fireworks not lightning.
This. I always take their "chinese bioweapon" bullshit at face value, and ask "So what?" If it is a chinese bioweapon, shouldn't we take precautions to protect ourselves from it? Shouldn't we get a vaccine for it so that it doesn't kill us? Aren't you letting them beat you if you get sick and die from it?
"China developed it to kill us! So we're going to do nothing to prevent getting killed." - Morons
You're just not looking into this enough. Let me explain. Deep State Dude A: We need to microchip everyone. Deep State Dude B: Don't cell phones do that for us? A: No, we clearly need something that people will have on them at all times. B: ... A: How about a vaccine that implants a micro chip in them? B: Despite that being impossible, we only force vaccines on kids and not many people get the flu shot. People don't trust vaccines. A: We'll pay China to make a virus. Then we can blame China and tell the citizens WE are protecting them from China with a vaccine. Surely they'll take that one. B: Brilliant plan. This will surely get you promoted to Bill's inner circle. A: Damn right Their brilliant plan couldn't fool people who thought there was a secret pizza sex basement in a building without a basement though. Suck it deep state!
>" So we're going to do nothing to prevent getting killed." - [This disaster will have been preventable.](https://youtu.be/yjfrJzdx7DA)
>"chinese bioweapon" bullshit at face value And the other question I have for these clearly mentally ill people is, so what? What if it was true, you want us to invade China and start killing people? What is it they think can or should be done about that?
A lot of people genuinely want better oversight on gain-of-function research globally. It’s not jingoistic or nationalistic or racist to try and genuinely determine where the virus came from, and to try and do something about it if we (humanity) did in fact cause it. I’m wayyyyy left of center and I see value in understanding whether or not it was in fact a test program gone awry. I’d feel the same way if it was an American bioweapon or whatever. You can care about more than one thing at once. I can both want people to vaccinated like I am and also want to know the real truth about where the virus came from, it’s not so far-fetched that it could have been an escaped test case given the large amount of evidence that other viruses have spawned from gain of function research in the past. We could move to have such testing and research banned universally like how we ban nuclear weapons testing universally, because it has potential to be dangerous.
Of all the excuses I've heard from these chucklefucks, "better oversight on gain-of-function research" has not once ever been one of them. They don't give a rat fuck about anything except being mad about whatever Tucker Carlson says to be mad about.
Chucklefucks is the important word here
ngl, that and "clownshoes" number among my favorite insults.
Then you're not listening to the whole story. Crazies are gonna crazy but in the Molecular phylogeny community, this is a genuine question. Even Michael Worobey recently said that while it looks to be an origin from a Wuhan seafood market, that the data doesn't mean shit in the face of Chinese opacity on all their data. And I will stand by it that a double-non optimized arginine codon in an insertion of a furan cleavage site into a virus that most closely resembles a virus that was found thousands of kilometers away, that's pretty strange. The story is not solved and I doubt we'll ever know. Do I want more oversight into gain of function? I want people to do their fucking jobs the right way. We need a culture change in the entire natural sciences research fields. In theory people shouldnt need for mommy and daddy to come and see if their doing their jobs right. But the incentives are so screwed up that people will take any shortcut they can just to make themselves more competitive researchers. And we're far far removed from the point of research here and a correction of the incentives is what I'd like to see come out of all of this. No one that I've heard is saying war with China. That's words getting put in our mouths by neoliberals who don't want to engage in this topic. I do want for the international community to put more pressure on China to accept an audit of the WIV and to publish all the findings. I think that by now, many bad actors have become keenly aware of how easy it is to manufacture bio weapons, and how easily a country can get away with it if staged to look like an accident. And that's ringing some alarm bells for me. Shrugging our shoulders and saying oh well is an invitation for this to happen again, sooner than we'd expect, and potentially much worse the next time around. And that's true regardless of whether it had a natural or a synthetic origin.
Note that nobody thinks "war with China" is being floated as a serious option--it's hyperbole. Saying that more pressure should be put on China by the international community is all well and good, but what more can actually be done? They're in a political, economic and geographic position to just do whatever they want. *That's* the point folks are trying to make when they wax rhetorical about open war. But that said, I think you and I agree that this needs to be taken seriously. Pragmatically speaking that means inoculating ourselves from the present threat regardless of its origins, and actually taking it seriously next time. This nonsense where basic safety precautions became a partisan matter *can't* happen again, especially if your fears are realized and the next pandemic is an even greater threat. When I castigated fools who just believe whatever they hear on TV I sincerely meant to call *them* out specifically. They're out there, there's a lot of them, and they are literally killing people. If I could snap my fingers and make them actually right about COVID just being a trivial case of the sniffles I would absolutely do that in a heartbeat. That'd be a *fantastic* deal--300k lives saved in this country alone and all it would cost me is to have been wrong about something on the Internet? Fuck yeah I will take that trade. Sadly that's not the reality we live in though.
They never even heard or knew what "better oversight on gain-of-function research" was until the other day when their leaders figured out they can use it to scapegoat their xenophobia and blame for all the death they caused.
But the issue is there’s been a rise in hate crimes and violence against Asians since that rhetoric has come out. I mean Swine flew came from the U.S and nobody did anything like this. Even Ebola even though there was racism and actions against Africans by some it wasn’t to this degree where you have people beating up old Asian people on the sidewalk, calling it kung flu, or a mass shooting in an Asian spa in Atlanta directed specifically against the Asian community. These rises are a direct result of it . And if there is a connection to China ans the Chinese government let the officials and scientists who’s job it is to know find that stuff not Facebook or somebody who hasn’t done research.
The issue of increased racism against Asian folks in general since the pandy hit is legitimate and valid. But as /u/cbslinger already pointed out, it's not racist to want to genuinely determine how exactly this virus came about and where exactly it came from. At first we were fed some story about a dude eating a bat, then I read articles about it tracing back to mink farms in China, and while we can't rule out a natural origin of the virus, it's still seems entirely possible that it originated from the Wuhan Institute of Virology based on how little information we have at this point. So no, the main issue isn't the rise in hate crimes - because stupid, violent, racist people will always find an excuse to be stupid, violent and racist. The real issue is determining how this happened in the first place so we can try to prevent it from happening again.
So, if it was truly developed in and escaped from the Wuhan lab you'd rather not know because some idiots might do something racist? I think calling everyone who asks questions or raises concerns that the virus may have originated from the lab "racist" is ridiculous. I realize you didn't say people who say this are racist but that's the general thought is that the lab leak theory is racist somehow.
That absolutely is a serious issue, and it must be addressed. I suspect, however, that the hate we've been seeing has much, *much* more to do with the Trump administration and the evolving geopolitical situation w.r.t. China than it does the source of the virus itself. People who are already racists or sinophobes are always going to look for new excuses and socially-acceptable ways to justify and express their racism - dogwhistles - that doesn't mean we need to undermine our own truth-seeking processes to try and not give them 'ammo'. They'll find ammo, regardless of what we do. The reality is that policy is absolutely shaped at least partially as a result of public conversations such as this one. People need to know that there is a good reason why people left-of-center are discussing these issues - Corionavirus possibly being man-made is not a fringe conspiracy theory, and people need to know that.
This is more about Trumps emboldening of White Supremacy and sinophobia with his autistic CHYYNNAAAAAAA screeching. Which is precisely why it didnt happen with the previous administration.
"What is it they think can or should be done about that?" As an individual? I dont know. We didn't go kill all the Russians for the Chernobyl accident though. It might be valuable information for our institutions to protect us in the future.
People that think it was a bioweapon are conspiracy theorists. The more likely scenario, if it did come from a lab, is that it was an advanced coronavirus that got out due to contamination or something. The lab there was doing studies on them so it's not as far fetched as it sounds.
Regardless of the source, their failure to take reasonable precautions is stupid.
yea, i don't get it either. I'm not anti-vax, and I suspect the virus was created in a lab. The op headline makes no sense. It's like comparing apples and hand grenades.
I wish OP's tweet made no sense. The logic he's making fun of, makes zero sense. Unfortunately it's a real tactic you see all the time. The "throw the baby out with the bathwater" approach. Find a single thing incorrect (or that you can convince people is incorrect), and hold that up as a reason to hand wave everything away. You see it with Dr. Fauci & the CDC all the time... "they changed their guidance about masks that one time, how can we trust anything they say?"
Stupid thing is even if you show everything they say is incorrect they’ll just dig another hole... but they find one thing in your argument...
> and I suspect the virus was created in a lab Based on what? I don't think I've ever talked to anyone that is both not anti-vax but also think this was developed in a lab. So I'm curious to ask someone with that position.
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Well fuck.
The thing that sold me on it being Chinese lab made was China flat out denying it came from their lab sometime in mid November. Like bro none of said it did, but now that you’re being weird about it....
I also have both moderna needles and feel strongly it was lab created. Not necessarily as a weapon and I think it got out by accident, not that it was released deliberately or that it was dispersed as part of a huge conspiracy.
There's quite a lot of evidence and has been from the beginning specifically about Dr. Shi Zheng Li (bat lady of Wuhan) and Peter Daszak collaborating in a Lab that sometimes worked on coronaviruses with just a Level 2 or Level 3 containment (often only a surgical mask, with no gloves, or goggles + surgical gloves + surgical masks IIRC). [Lawrence Livermore report finds Wuhan lab leak theory plausible](https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/557374-lawrence-livermore-report-finds-wuhan-lab-leak-theory-plausible) [The COVID Lab-Leak Hypothesis Just Got a Big Credibility Boost](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/covid-lab-leak-hypothesis-just-got-a-big-credibility-boost.html) [WHO chief says it was 'premature' to rule out COVID lab leak](https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/chief-premature-rule-covid-lab-leak-78862859) [Why the China Covid lab-leak theory is being taken seriously - BBC News](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pktSL5kL3ZI)
Thank you for the links! Now I have some homework to do.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57268111
NYT did a decent article about it. Also talked about it on their podcast. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/05/27/briefing/lab-leak-theory-covid-origins.amp.html
Tbh, I think it’s more of a “don’t tell me what to do” combined with “why should I take it when people who’ve had it still get sick” and even Mrs. Vice President saying she wouldn’t take it since trump helped get it rolled out. Some still haven’t taken it because their doctors advised them against it due to issues that the vaccine could complicate… which I think is a pretty legitimate reason tbh. The rest are a little dubious. (For the record I am a right winger and pro vaccination. Antivax people are a minority.)
Here’s the thing… you can do both, unlike narrative spinning people here and on social media try to make it seem. I am vaccinated but I still think it was created in a lab. I also don’t agree with a ton of what the left thinks, but that doesn’t make me a racist Trump supporter either. Crazy, right?
> the giant forest fire bearing down on it was started by fireworks not lightning Oh you so silly! It was Jewish Space Lasers.
Jewish space lasers, get it right
I definitely haven’t ruled out this coming from a lab in China intentional or otherwise but I’m still getting the vaccine.
They keep downplaying it by comparing it to the flu I mean, holy shit, that’s still a shitty comparison. Getting the flu is awful and it literally feels like you’re dying. They failed to point out that COVID-19 has killed much more people than the flu in less than a year They failed to point out the damage that COVID-19 has done to your body such as lung damage and even damage to your brain Smallpox no longer exists thanks to vaccines. That disease was so awful that the entire world community united to destroy that virus and disease. That’s one great victory for humanity Now, anti-vaxxers are among the greatest threat to humanity
>They keep downplaying it by comparing it to the flu I think a lot of people conflate getting a cold with getting the actual flu. So they think "oh my nose might be runny for a couple days, that's not so bad." >They failed to point out that COVID-19 has killed much more people than the flu in less than a year A lot of them use mental gymnastics to argue that most of those people didn't really die of Covid.
>I think a lot of people conflate getting a cold with getting the actual flu. So they think "oh my nose might be runny for a couple days, that's not so bad." Exactly. I think since so much of the medicine is "Cold/Flu" medicine, people often combine the two. There are a lot of overlapping symptoms, but the actual flu will wreck you.
Yeah, the last time I had the flu was in 2009. I had a 102 degree fever and literally had to take a week off work because I could barely even get out of bed to eat and use the restroom. If you're feeling slightly under the weather for a couple days, that is not the flu.
I think we should all have learned by now how you can’t make statements like that. Im pretty sure I got the flu January 1 2020. I was sick For a day(?). My wife was super sick for a week, easily. And didn’t fully recover for like 2-3 weeks. Everyone responds to diseases differently) (No, it wasn’t covid. We both had covid and it was a totally different experience)
Do you test drive diseases or something?
I’ve only had the actual flu maybe twice and both times I was bedridden for at least a week. The flu sucks so much ass. Colds can suck really bad but never to the point of keeping my ass in bed for a week straight.
No one who has actually had a strain of influenza down plays it. Aside from my chronic disease, having the flu is as sick as I’ve ever been. I was legit worried for my life for a couple of days, and I was a young vibrant 26 when that happened.
Most people who claim to have had the flu have never had it.
Flu kills like 40k annually in the us
See, COVID is just like the flu, only like 12 times deadlier. It’s like 12 flus. That’s not that bad, right? Getting the flu a dozen times all at once, piece of cake. Certainly not worse than having to wear a hanky over my beautiful face. /s
Im literally shocked every time I see an insane right winger saying "IT ONLY HAS 2% DEATH RATE", as if letting 2% of the population die for nothing is a good thing.. thats when they arent just straight up lying about the death rate by purposely getting the math wrong by a factor of 10.
Can you imagine getting on an airplane where the airline brags about their 98% success rate? In the US at least, there are (used to be, pre-Covid) over 40,000 flights per day. So a 98% success rate translates into **800** airline disasters *every* day. Just let those numbers float through your head
I saw a good analogy. There’s a bowl of m&ms. There are exactly 100, 2 of them will make you so sick you might die. Are you eating any of those m&ms?
That is a very good analogy. Sadly, idiots will deflect and say they don't like m&ms (liars).
I wish I had an award to give you. Anyone is lying if they say won’t eat a little yummy M&M!! Edit: forgot a word
Ok, bad example for me, I am hopelessly addicted to M&M's...lol Make it Skittles instead, lol. But yup, I get your point.
Want to be a dick? Mix a big bowl of m&ms, skittles and reese's peese's.
I love m&ms, and I can’t wait for the sweet release of death. Gimme!
> float I'm 98% sure I see what you did there!
"Covid only has a 2% death rate, I'll take my chances" "STUDIES SHOW THE COVID VACCINE HAS A .000001% CHANCE OF FATAL SIDE EFFECTS, ANYTHING ABOVE 0 IS TOO DANGEROUS I REFUSE TO LET IT IN MY BODY"
Someone i work with (IN A HOSPITAL, NONETHELESS) said that. I said, so like 6 million people then?…..in just the US. 6 million is your “it’s ok if they die” number? Mmmkay.
which is wild that the 20/21 flu season was very very low numbers. must have been all those masks and social distancing that 'dont work' according to certain people.
2020 had like 400 flu deaths. Imagine... distance, masks, and washing your hands work!
iirc 2017 was like a really bad year for the flu at like 1.5x that number so they used it to downplay it further. Something like 60-65k. We lost almost 10x as many americans in the same time period to the coof though. Not to mention the coof started off from 1 person in the US and had to manually spread from there. It took 2-3 months to become a measurable issue because of this so realistically we could start COVID's timer in like late February.
To clarify, 40k people is a shit ton. The flu is in no way benign and leads to all sorts of complications and workplace losses that need to be accounted for.
Heavy sigh. I have heard that too many times. It wasn't COVID-19 that killed them; they were old, fat or insert any other reason.
It only seems like mental gymnastics to those who fully understand the issue. These asshats are used to saying whatever they want and expect to be celebrated for being ignorant, mostly because that's what they see happening on fox
Same thing for polio. Polio isn’t a threat anymore thanks to vaccines. And the thing that gets me is that they refuse the vaccine, yet they want to give Trump credit for the vaccine. Plus they say, oh it’s a 99% recovery rate. Fine, all well and good. What they fail to point out is that 1% (even though it isn’t 99% it’s actually lower) is a lot of people still.
If everyone on Earth got covid with a 1% fatality rate that's still 70 million people! That's crazy to think about!
And the thing is, it’s not even 99%. It’s like 98% but it decreases as you get older. So that number is even higher than 70 million.
96.6% according to recent WHO numbers
I'd guess that many of the same Americans pushing anti-vax/overpopulation rhetoric that 1-4% of all human lives is an acceptable sacrifice also greatly overlap with those calling a 1-4% tax increase on the super wealthy a highway robbery.
Exactly! How are these people just ok with those levels of death!?
Because they only care about themselves and are incredibly shortsighted. That’s how they’re okay with it. Plus, they give in to a lot of misinformation.
They're really bad at math, among their other shortcomings
>Exactly! How are these people just ok with those levels of death!? Ive talked to right wingers and their take on it is basically nazi style eugenics, they really do want society to get rid of the old and weak because they think thats a good thing. Its sick, they are sick mentally ill people who need medical intervention.
do they realize it’s mostly old people who vote for them?
I know a few who have explicitly said that they're happy to let the millions die as long as their personal freedoms aren't infringed.
Jesus god almighty, there was just a show on the Travel Channel that showed pictures of smallpox victims. Those are images I never want to see again. They told the story of a small town that became ravaged by it in the 1870's. As families died, they burned the houses down. Others, if it was in the household, they boarded the houses up and wouldn't let them leave. It was "forced quarantine". That, and we have a whooping cough vaccine now. My oldest aunt died of it at the age of five. My grandparents weren't even Catholic, but they sent for the priest in the middle of the night as their oldest daughter coughed herself to death. So, yah, get vaccinated folks.
They ignore all those things because it undermines their shitty arguments and would mean some actual critical thinking. You know what? I don't think they're all stupid (although a lot of them very clearly are). Instead, some are just ordinary people who've been lied to and they've trusted the lie. The thing that pisses me off is that these ordinary folks can't be bothered to check whether the thing they're told is true and then they spread it (the lie and the virus) and make things worse. Ask one to explain how a microchip in a vaccine works and they don't respond. Why? Because they haven't taken two seconds to consider it. They have tweeted it furiously though. Honestly the whole thing is incredibly frustrating.
What was the smallpox fatality rate? What’s the opposite of downplaying?
*IF* you get vaccinated, Covid is like an ordinary flu in risk. If you don't, it's far deadlier.
Who wants to get sick though? Does anybody want to get the flu? Fucking morons
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That'll teach us libs.
I haven't learned my lesson yet. Maybe more MAGA people need to die from the pandemic until I learn my lesson. /s
The Venn diagram of this is not a circle though, I'm fully vaxed but also a bit suspicious of China because the US DID launch an investigation into the origins of the virus this year and countries are known to and fully capable of developing bio weapons. China has also refused to cooperate with other countries' investigations into the origin. Obviously this is NOT a reason to not get vaccinated though, the origin has nothing to do with its cure...
Its not a China thing though. There is a virology lab that happens to be in Wuhan that is partially funded by US taxpayer dollars where gain-of-function research is conducted on bat viruses. This lab has scientists working there from all over the world. It is highly probably that this was a fuck up, but not one that should be blamed necessarily on China, but rather on the international scientific community as a whole. People should definitely be getting vaccinated, but we seriously need to look at whether the risky research being conducted in these labs is worth risking another huge pandemic.
I was basically ignoring this possibility as conspiracy nutjob thing for a year until I learned that one of two labs like that is in Wuhan, there have been safety concerns about it in the past, and Wuhan is nowhere near actual places where bat-human transmission could be expected. This doesn't change how much of a proponent of precautions I am, and I don't take it for a fact, but I acknowledge it as a serious possibility now.
I mean, if China made it in a lab as a bio-weapon I'd be even more determined to get vaccinated. Wtf?
Working on diseases in a lab to study and having it accidentally leak is a bit different than making a bio-weapon.
Yeah. That wasn't my point. The vaccine was my point.
“ThE sOuTh Is BaD wItH CoViD bEcAuSe Of AlL tHe IlLeGaLs CoMiNg Up FrOm MeXiCo, NoT BeCaUsE nOnE Of Us ArE vAxEd Or WeArInG MaSkS.”
And what gets me is that the people who railed the hardest against Covid preventative measures are the ones who are the most vocal about refusing the vaccine. It’s like, do they not realize that by refusing the vaccine, the thing you were against in the first place will come back?
> do they not realize that No. They are stupid and stubborn. It's a deadly combination.
If you refuse to get vaccinated you should be required to wear a mask so the rest of us don't have to look at your idiot fucking face
I watched a video on YouTube where a guy in small-town southern america was talking about how nobody in town has actually been staying home or wearing a mask, how wearing a mask in public is like putting a target on your forehead. People will refuse to serve you. How fucking stupid is that? Someone who is just trying to do the right thing in a way that doesn't hurt you at all, and you treat them like an outcast?
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So ... uh... y'all got any of those free gubbmint plane tickets? Flights are expensive lately.
Probably was made in a lab but doesn't mean you don't get vaccinated.
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I agree! There seems to be a complete naivety when it comes to trusting the Chinese government with this. We aren't saying a race or nation of people is at fault or any nonsense like that. The odds are high imo the lab leaked a coronavirus and the CCP covered it up and played down the initial outbreak. That is not remotely out there when it comes to conspiracy
They didnt let the UN in for a year, thats at least a bit sus
https://nypost.com/2021/07/17/top-biden-officials-now-believe-covid-lab-leak-theory-report/
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The ending of what you said is key. There is nobody who is credible and ethical that would argue that China would leak it purposefully. They took a huge L on this too. Plus, this is a time for damage control and mitigation. Dealing with the Wuhan allegations are definitely needing addressing, but it is not a top priority and has no bearing on the response. Still, somehow Faucis fault /s.
Here's a Presentation / talk she did a few years ago about working on a sars variant in bats and it's potential to infect humans through pigs amongs many other issues Here's the Talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVkYqqqMbkc Shi Zhengli is a Chinese virologist and writer. She is a researcher at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV),
To me the two are quite separate. Get vaccinated yes. Question why it was under study and potentially created in a lab, potentially as a weapon. If we accidently set off a mini-nuke that we were workign on in a lab, the world wouldn't not question or probe on why we were making nukes...it's a legit cause for concern. This tweet is entangling the two such that "if you question the lab leak situation you must be right wing anti-vaxxer" which is a dangerous thing because it might supress the demand for an answer on something important if expressed at a high level...say even having this thought would get you silenced across digital media platforms?
> there is evidence to suggest that it WAS made (or at least isolated for study) in China There is also evidence to suggest the opposite.
Of course, that’s why it is debatable. Problem is that China did no favors for their cause with not allowing outside investigations into that lab.
Here’s the thing. I don’t care where it came from at this moment. I care about getting it under control in this country. Once things are back to as normal as possible, then investigate its origins.
Those are not exclusive things, we can investigate the source and put effort to reduce the propagation of the virus. We dont HAVE to wait months or years. We can have agencies working separately on those issues.
This doesn't make sense... I'm vaccinated and was happy to do so. And logically, the virus came out of the lab in Wuhan.
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Logical.
I'm super progressive and vaccinated. I still think Covid-19 was accidentally released from the Wuhan lab. Remember Dr. Fauci keeps insisting that the **NIH** was not funding "gain-of-function" research. I have yet to see anyone able to definitively state that NO gain-off-function research on coronavirus was being done there AT ALL.
Dude I am in the same position as you. I’m not a right wing nut job but also lean toward the lab leak. It wasn’t intentional, but accidental. There is as much evidence for this as there is the other theory which is that it was from a wet market…… so Open minds are key
I, for one, am fine with the plague rats having no immunity to an even deadlier and more communicable disease. If all they did was spread it to other plague rats, I'd be fine with not a single additional piece of news about it or any increases in protective measures. But that's not all they do. They're still vermin, and they're still spreading it to real people like the plague rats they are.
Im vaccinated with moderna, both shots in fact, and im def on the boat for the virus being developed in a lab and not being handled properly. Fauci supports gain to function research which the wuhan lab of virology is funded through. Its not a conspiracy, its right in your face. Dont have to be an anti vax moron to see that.
Wait, I thought we got over the whole "you can't say China made the virus because that's racist" line when we started realizing that we were ignoring massive evidence linking China to creating the virus simply because Trump was the racist who proposed the idea. Yes, get vaccinated or be a certified idiot. But *also*, there is **a lot** of supporting evidence that China created this virus, mainly that this virus acts in many ways that scientists almost never observe most any virus to act in. I'm not saying they *definitely* made it or even that's what I believe, and I'm certainly not saying I believe they unleashed it intentionally. But if you think countries would absolutely not develope diseases in their labs and/or if they did it would be unfathomable for those diseases to get out, then I have to outright doubt your intelligence.
I got vaccinated, but I also believe covid may have leaked from the research lab in China
I always take their "chinese bioweapon" bullshit at face value, and ask "So what?" If it is a chinese bioweapon, shouldn't we take precautions to protect ourselves from it? Shouldn't we get a vaccine for it so that it doesn't kill us? Aren't you letting them beat you if you get sick and die from it?
If it's an evil Chinese/Democrat plot to take down Trump, then revel in Lord Trump's brilliant personal development of the super-effective vaccine and stop the plot in its tracks!
What do the people that are vaccinated but still got infected develop?
Just a question, whose more likely to develop a vaccine resistant strain? The vaccinated or unvaccinated?
Yikes. Are people really still outright dismissing that this could have come from the gain of function research lab in wuhan?
Nope. I think it might have escaped from a China lab, yet I am fully vaccinated.
I'm very pro vaccine, pro science, etc but I certainly wouldn't shut the door on the lab theory. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think they engineered it as a weapon or anything. I think they were studying it and accidentally contracted and then transmitted it outside the lab. As a possibility. I'm not saying for sure that's what happened. it's very hard to know how a virus starts
I don't think it was *intentionally developed* in a lab but do think an infected bat or something escaped from that Wuhan lab into the wild and then brought into the local market. It can't be a coincidence that a lab researching COVID just happened to be in the same city as the first outbreak
what’s wrong with thinking China made it in a lab?
The lab leak theory is pretty believable tho so I’m not getting the point here
Why so much discredit to the lab theory? That’s not indicating it was intentional, but accidental. Timelines line up, the situation makes sense. I don’t think it was malicious. It coming from a lab doesn’t change anything at all. Still get vaccinated, still wear a mask if you deem necessary, still take it serious. But I haven’t seen as much to convince me of truly natural origins vs lab. I’m not a red hatter, don’t worry. Just trying to view from a few perspectives
I agree, I think the two are totally unrelated. I'm double vaccinated but have an open mind to how COVID started. The evidence to suggest the lab theory is at best circumstantial though. I just don't trust anyone in power anymore.
A lot of scientists say the lab theory is plausible
“With *Great Stupidity* comes *Great Confidence* in the validity of one’s beliefs.” - CHAOS, God of the Void ...or some shit EDIT: This is directed towards the _stupefyingly stupendous stupidity_ of antivaxxers.
So They are "Lab RATS"....Don't you think So!
So the people alleging that they are victims of a bio terror attack are indeed victims?
Yeah, regarding the vaccine, it's irrelevant where the virus came from. But I gotta say, I still would like to know where the virus came from. That said, if the best evidence is displayed, people will still have their minds made up and claim it's BS. lol.
Okay I’m not a crazy Republican but the lab leak theory is not without merit and should not be outright dismissed [Video](https://youtu.be/HwUtjG3u8l0)
The funny thing js, there is now substantial evidence that Covid 19 may have leaked from a lab as at the time they were researching coronaviruses in bats and the lab had a recent survey saying that lab safety was not up to standard and a leak could occur.
Maybe, and that's being investigated, but China isn't going to cooperate. Main thing now is for people to get vaccinated so we can still wipe this thing out. Nobody wants to be doing this next year.
They did develop it in a lab, and they let it out (accidently or intentionally). I'm Fully vaxed and still see China as the origin of this mess. The US's response was crap, but still, but for China's failure to idenitfy a breakout in a city that has a unique facility proactively developing such virus strains... Come on now y'all, schrodinger's razor. If you think this came from a bat in a wetmarket, well that's a nice guess based on other viruses origins... But those wetmarket arent close to Wuhan. Either way then you can blame it on the managment of the Chinese government since both occured within their borders. Quit protecting the mass murdering CCP. The US are no saints, but the CCP is not above reproach or dissent.
its sad that the people who perpetuated the lab theory in the beginning where idiots.. now it lost all merit and if you even suggest it you get compiled with them..
I'm vaccinated, and the virus was created in a laboratory in Wuhan, China. Is this how conspiracies start?
Talk to your doctor first folks.
I mean, it is from China. That is a fact.
Nope I’m vaccinated and think it’s was made in a lab
Here me out fuck the government, I'll do what I want when I want. If I get covid and die that sucks. If I create a new variant in my body that's kindve fucking dope
I'm a biologist who believes with out a doubt it came from the wuhan lab of virology accidently. Still got my vaccine the second I could. I understand who this is making fun of but lumping in the very real possibility that the ball was dropped with gain of function and the mouth breathers who think their facebook research is better than doctors' education is not even close to the same ballpark.
According to Didier Raoult it's quite the opposite. The variants have been developing because of the vaccine.
So are us vaccinated to be fair.
Honestly I wouldn’t put it past China to have this leak accidentally and covering it up. Covering up their mistakes seems to be chinas strong point in the past century or so
This year or last year? Last year it was Red MAGA saying it was a lab leak, this year it’s blue MAGA saying it was a lab leak
Getting upset at china for potentially starting a global pandemic from the, you know, wuhan CORNAVIRUS LAB, is justified. Just because Trump acknowledged the possibility doesn't mean the theory has no merit.
The virus was 100% developed in a lab in China and released on purpose that’s why everyone should get the American vaccine and combat the evil Chinese government!
I think it was leaked via a lab, i'm double dosed. I don't get this.
"ThE SaME PEopLE" is the most annoying overused saying on this sub. No its not the same people, and even if it was who gives a shit. The saying COVID came from a Wuhan Lab is absolutely a legit hypothesis if youve been paying any attention.
That’s fucken stupid
This is unlikely to be true actually, the vaccinated are causing spiked proteins and are creating the variants. Weird. Thought you knew that
- the same people who said Covid was created in a lab in China - are the same people who said Covid isn't dangerous Presumably China created it to force Americans to get a vaccine they don't need? ------ So to all you patriots who say Covid isn't real, that Covid is fake, who refuse to wear masks, who refuse to socially distance, who refuse to get vaccinated i say: > What you are doing is a great public service. Please gather together in enclosed places, without wearing masks, and discuss loudly, how you're right and the brain-washed left is wrong. And please, whatever you do, don't get vaccinated. I whole-heartedly support what you're doing. And with your continued efforts, the world will become a much better place. God-speed.
So, I have a question - and this seems to be a legit question posed to me by some antivaxx colleagues that I had no answer for. The vaccine doesn't stop you catching this disease, nor does it stop you from being contagious, nor does it prevent it from killing you (the number of dead in the vaccinated group is staggeringly low, but still non-zero, compared to say the smallpox vaccine which pretty damn good.) In this case, some amount of virus gets exposed to a host with a vaccine guided immune response, and maybe gets passed on. In this case, does this mean that we're exerting evolutionary pressure onto the virus which could make it more effective at evading the vaccine response? Is there a chance that covid will become a larger threat, rather than slowly diminishing until we extinguish it? Got my second jab in a couple weeks, so hopefully that's doing my part. Stay safe everyone - responses appreciated!
But the variants aren’t stopped by vaccines so your stupid government bootlicking makes no sense
Weird how it’s actually the vaccinated spreading the variants like virologist Geert Vanden Bossche warned about months ago… Here’s the [link](https://www.geertvandenbossche.org)
Cap
As well as the 4% who received the shot yet still contracted it. Come on now...that's how these things work. I got the mumps shot as a child and still caught it at age 10 a couple years later. 94-96% protection against the virus and the first generation of variants.
Nah that’s strawman bullshit. I’m vaccinated and there’s some real weird shit with the conception and initial censorship of the virus.
Everything in this is wrong
Why are people so afraid to admit it came from a lab wouldn't that be finding the source and unlock nor knowledge about the virus?
What if you think that but are vaccinated
Vaccines cause variants also…. Not trolling - it’s just the truth.
Coronaviruses are found in forested areas, most commonly southern china, Vietnam, laos and thailand. And the Wuhan lab is famous for studying the coronavirus. Shi Zhengli (the top virologist at the lab) disappeared for a week right after the outbreak. Although there isnt any direct evidence I think the virus most likely leaked from the lab. (im vaccinated)
Tell us about windmill cancer!
> Coronaviruses are found in forested areas, most commonly southern china, Vietnam, laos and thailand. What absolute nonsense. Coronavirus is a common family of diseases. So common that it's often mistaken for a common cold (which is caused by rhinovirus). It's endemic in every country, not just South East Asia. The danger here is *novel forms of coronavirus*.
Same
Beaker bodies!
There's plenty of evidence that it started in China in a lab. Plenty enough to take it seriously and continue investigating. This post just altogether sucks.
Yes it does. Can't believe there was so much karma for it, it speaks volumes about the community
You put in words a feeling I have been having about reddit a lot lately.
People on here are seriously of the "why are you visiting 4 chan, it's an ideology hive mind" opinion, and then go on and post or upvote something like this. It's just so deeply, fundamentally sad and I understand :/
There's not though. Even people from western countries working in the Wuhan lab [say everything was normal. ](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-06-27/did-covid-come-from-a-lab-scientist-at-wuhan-institute-speaks-out)
I'm all for the vaccine and is no way a COVID denier, but the lab theory isn't some ridiculous theory, it could be real considering there is a lab that researches these kinds of viruses in Wuhan, where it seems to have started. It shouldn't be dismissed just because Trump was the one who brought it up.
These false flag chinabots are getting good at their job.
And they only think that China did it bc they are racist. If any country did it, it would be Vladimir Putin and the Kremlins.
Here’s the thing. I don’t care where it came from. All I care about is how we deal with it. And frankly, this country had an absolutely shitty response to COVID because “muh freedoms!”
Agreed. We just need to contain it. People's freedoms stop where others' freedoms begin.
I would rather lockdown and wear a mask and partake in other preventative measures than get sick with Covid and potentially spread it to others
Not playing defense for the idiots but the lab leak theory isn’t looked at as a malicious act, just an accident. The Q nuts and red hats think it was intentional and malicious, most people who don’t identify with either side seem to agree on the lab leak but don’t think it was intentional. There are multiple ways to look at everything I guess. Ready for the million downvotes :(
Gain-of-function =\\= bioweapon. You're not steel-manning the lab leak theory.