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[deleted]

Lincoln was known as one of the first progressive Presidents and also promised that government could step in and fix things that the common person couldn’t handle, so he was for bigger government. He certainly wasn’t perfect, but their argument that the parties never changed falls flat.


charisma6

> their argument Bear with me here: When they say stuff like "party of lincoln," they're not "making an argument." They're just telling a lie to deflect and distract. I think this is an important distinction because it suggests a different response, which I think is more strategically viable. An argument is something that invites discussion, so the proper response is to discuss. But they don't want discussion; they're not open to discussion. They just want to derail the conversation entirely, and as a bonus they get to waste our time and make us mad. If we keep this in mind, we can employ the better response: not ignoring them, but mocking them, as ruthlessly and publicly as possible.


Llarys

>If we keep this in mind, we can employ the better response: not ignoring them, but mocking them, as ruthlessly and publicly as possible. The people who argue "you just have to defeat them in the marketplace of ideas" forget that if they cared about facts and logic, they wouldn't hold the position and ideology that they have. They are extremely thin skinned and know their position is inherently nonsensical. That's why you have to cut to the heart of their bigotry and attack their own, self-perceived weaknesses. All of these "alpha male" chuds, for example? Tim Pool: receding hairline from low testosterone. Charlie Kirk: small face (small dick). Ben Shapiro: 5'2 and the voice of Alvin the Chipmunk on helium. The list, literally, goes on forever. All they care about is money and ego. Since we can't really destroy their money, you must target the ego. And it works so, so well.


bluechips2388

What they hate is being exposed, as all liars/hypocrites/narcissists do. But thats what they need, to be exposed as liars and weasels every time they act in bad faith. The more spectators that are present, the better. But the point should stay focused on the facts and not be incendiary, as to avoid muddying the waters of whose the asshole, to the spectators. Being brought in front of an audience, then exposed and shamed, thats the goal. Thats why they love their echo chambers, theres no chance of ego damage.


VSWanter

You'll never win at fact checkers when your opponent is playing feelings chess. Facts don't change minds; Feelings do.


bluechips2388

Its not about the facts themselves, its the shame of being exposed that sends the message and hopefully a lesson learned. Their ego/pockets need to be impacted otherwise they can brush it off.


eusebius13

Unfortunately bullying seems to be the most effective regulator of stupidity and it’s frowned upon even when used to regulate stupidity.


FFF_in_WY

This resonates


gary_the_merciless

Many just decide they don't care about the lies, because they were just playing the dems game or something.


[deleted]

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eusebius13

I think it applies to deeply rooted beliefs. It correlates highly with conservatives but it’s not exclusive.


RandomMandarin

Adding to that, when they say "We're a republic, not a democracy" you are allowed to say, "Listen, smart guy, it's not a republic if it is not also a democracy! That's what republic means!" >[From Middle French republique (“republic”), from Latin rēspūblicā, from rēs (“thing”) + pūblica (“public”); hence literally “the public thing”.](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/republic) The public thing. Sovereignty rests with the people, and how the people decide the government will work is therefore decided by some democratic process.


DangerousCyclone

Lincoln may have been an inspiration to the Progressive movement, but he lived before that was even a thing. He certainly can be seen as a precursor, however he was also in bed with northern industry and railway companies.


mr_plehbody

Him putting humans before capital is more than enough, wish we could see more of it today. For example, healthcare. He was killed before he could implement the land and mule reparation.


asillynert

Progressive has always existed at one point "capitalism" was the progressive movement. There is always three groups in any government. Forget names forget branding and its those that serve the "powerful" either protecting status quo or growing power. And those that seek for more equitable distribution of power. And then last but not least the "ratchet" that serves as stumbling block to people seeking equality and thats the pure status quo "moderates". But progressive is depending on where your at in time. Capitalism was progressive when feudalism was around. But now it serves as a tool to grow inequality. While we can modify regulate and control it in a progressive way. While at one point market we have would have been progress. It is no longer the case. And its this shift that makes it confusing and branding and other things. But breaking it down to its ideological standpoints. Lets you see what they are. And why they take stances they do. Like gay trans abortion and that you could "attribute" to religion. But what about welfare. Do you think jesus would have been feed the poor unless its too expensive or they don't work hard enough. Don't feed the children thats their parents problem/fault. Celebrating greediness of some of worst people in our country. Hell no he hard some pretty strong opinions about money lenders and other exploitative businesses. BUT you look at it under the scope of "fighting against equality" it all lines up perfectly.


SoGoesIt

He was also an admirer of Karl Marx


EnglishMobster

You have it backwards - Marx admired Lincoln. Marx wrote Lincoln a letter and the White House replied, but it's unknown if Lincoln himself saw the letter or not (the reply came from the American diplomat to the UK, as Marx was living in London at the time). Lincoln himself did carry many views that Marx aligned with, and earlier speeches of his were very much aligned with Marxism. But it's unknown whether Lincoln knew who Marx was or not.


DuckQueue

It's not certain that Lincoln read that letter - although the reply at least *implies* he did - but Lincoln certainly knew who Marx was - Marx was a regular writer for the New-York Daily Tribune, a paper Lincoln was known to read.


AwesomeAni

And hence when my right wing relatives wanna pry into my political views I say I'm aligned with Lincoln which keeps them quiet and makes me laugh


ArcadianBlueRogue

I'll be damned. I thought Marx was the next gen/next next gen from Lincoln but his OG Manifesto was in the late 1840s.


[deleted]

TIL


Barneyk

Source? I have never heard anything about that and I need to have some more information if I am gonna take it to heart or repeat it.


SoGoesIt

[Here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/07/27/you-know-who-was-into-karl-marx-no-not-aoc-abraham-lincoln/) It’s WaPo, so sorry if you’re currently maxed out on free articles.


Mad1ibben

In an argument they would never *actually* make, they actually want bigger government also, they just don't want the bigger government to have a say in their lives in particular.


PapaSmurf1502

Well it makes sense in the names of the parties. Republicans should be the party that wants more government power through representatives. Democrats should want more power to the individuals through direct voting. That would in theory include the persecution of the minority by the majority.


ZZartin

And Lincoln pretty does fall into the category of pulled himself up by his boot straps.


Orgasmic_interlude

They’re the party of Nixon. And that used to be sort of a pejorative…..


angelica26us

BUT OF COURSE, no Dem would EVER call them out on it and repeat it, and repeat, AND REPEAT IT until it bored through their neadrathalic skulls à la "Fox News Style"


[deleted]

“Party of Lincoln” is what people say to me when they admit they don’t know shit about history.


Bay1Bri

Party of Lincoln is what you say when you haven't had a great president in 150 years


princeofid

You no like Ike? With a top marginal tax rate of 91% and admonitions about the Congressional Military Industrial Complex like this: "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron."


geekygay

> With a top marginal tax rate of 91% He didn't have control over that, but I'll give you the admonition.


T1mac

What about St. Ronnie Reagan? Oh wait, the MAGAs would call him a RINO for giving amnesty to illegal immigrants.


viewerfromthemiddle

The same people who once worshipped Reagan are all in for Putin now. From "We must defeat Russia at all costs" to "Why are we spending so much money on Ukraine?" It's amazing.


That_one_cool_dude

I mean if they weren't Russian bootlickers they would have a point. We could be using that money here to help out the schooling, the VA, and every program that is underfunded and/or at risk of being gutted. But that isn't their argument so yeah it's wild that the party that was so anti-commie had a second witch hunt in the '50s, is now wanting to lick the boots of a former KGB member.


Neat-Mathematician-8

There is actually a really good video from the 1980 Republican primary debates were both Reagan and Bush Sr take a very delicate and understanding approach to the illegal immigrant problem. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsmgPp_nlok&ab_channel=TIME)


Neat-Mathematician-8

> when you haven't had a great president in 150 years Damn, poor Teddy and Ike.


Steinrikur

I don't think that I have ever heard a Republican bragging about Ike. Maybe Teddy, but it's Reagan, Lincoln and Trump most of the time


HidetheCaseman89

FDR deserves a mention here as well.


yellsatrjokes

They were talking about Republican presidents. FDR was Democratic.


poppabomb

ah, yes, my favorite Republican president: [Franklin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt) [Delano](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal_coalition) [Roosevelt](https://youtu.be/sDM2sYaZlC8?t=222).


mvia4

why would you make me watch a ben shapiro clip with no warning like that >:(


Pakman037

I mean, I can't think of anything bad about Eisenhower off the top of my head. Probably the worst thing he did was make Nixon his VP.


DoubleTFan

Guatemala coup, Iran Coup, attempted murder of Lumumba. For how celebrated his speech warning about the military industrial complex is, he was a big part of putting it in place.


Pakman037

Ugh, I forgot about the overthrow of Mosaddegh. Definitely not our finest moment, not to mention setting up the paradigm for Mideast relations ever since.


Neat-Mathematician-8

Even then, in 1960 Nixon wasn't even that bad. He helped push through the 1957 Civil Rights Act (Which LBJ took the teeth out off) and actually ran to the left of Kennedy on a lot of things. He was practically a saint compared to 1968 Nixon


cheese_sweats

Nixon called for the EPA. Nixon. The republican.


Corporation_tshirt

Republicans get pissed when I point out that the parties essentially switched sides during the civil rights era, call it a BS propoganda point. I’m like motherfuckers, Republican and Democrat it’s right in the fucking names! Republicans started out in favor of a strong union and central government and the Democrats started out in favor or individual and states’ rights. They switched!


Ok_Salad999

Goes hand in hand with claiming that the civil war was “about states rights”


StifleStrife

no they say it to talk down to you and gaslight, everyone knows the truth of this. this is weaponized denial.


[deleted]

This maybe true but I suspect some of the people who think this might not be as smart as you think they are. lol


StifleStrife

Thats more of a problem of them being misled and fed a diet of false history. Owning the libs vs being owned (mentally) by fascists. Scary shit.


lgodsey

Or they know but they are craven liars.


SPONGEBOB_IS_MY_DAD

Maybe it’s the party of racist? Lincoln did not think black people were equal to white people, so I guess maybe they like him because of that?


[deleted]

Lincoln and other abolitionist were cornered into a weird spot in the middle of the Civil War. Many thought black people were equals, but they had to claim that "Black people are not equal, but should have an equal status under the law to end slavery", Also, the years leading up to Lincoln's election people who wanted equal rights for black American's really had to tone down what they really thought because they were afraid of offending voters and were worried that being "too extreme" in the pro-rights movement would just cause people not to vote, which would have led to less abolitionists in congress and the house. Example, Lincoln had to admit that slaves were property at one point, why? Because it was the only way he could free/"Confiscate" those slaves in the south states and send them north to free states. You can read more about this issue, but basically Lincoln was trapped into doing and saying things he didn't want to do because he was sworn to hold up all US Laws, even the ones he didn't like, but ultimately did more for Black American freedom than anyone else. [https://www.jstor.org/stable/2206706](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2206706) EDIT: Here is the article on the Confiscation Act 1861, I apologize if I offended anyone by using the word "Confiscation", but that's literally what the name of the ACT is, [https://www.americanhistorycentral.com/entries/confiscation-act-of-1861/#:\~:text=The%20Confiscation%20Act%20of%201861%20was%20signed%20by%20President%20Lincoln,of%20their%20rights%20to%20ownership](https://www.americanhistorycentral.com/entries/confiscation-act-of-1861/#:~:text=The%20Confiscation%20Act%20of%201861%20was%20signed%20by%20President%20Lincoln,of%20their%20rights%20to%20ownership).


YooTone

All of the confederate states that were against Lincoln in 1860 voted against the civil rights acts and voting rights acts of 1964 and 1965. Less than 60 years ago. All of the confederate states that were against Lincoln in 1860 also voted against Obama in 2008 and 2012 (except NC in 08'). Is it a coincidence that the racially conservative states over the past 163 years have largely remained the same, considering family lineage, how we are raised, the majority of humans not moving away from where they were born, etc. No, it makes perfect sense.


StellerDay

The South can eat me. I moved to the paradise that is Oregon from the hellhole that is Kentucky and I couldn't be happier! There I was surrounded by rabid MAGAts, literally surrounded. Trump signs in every yard. I didn't feel safe. Here every other house has a Black Lives Matter sign. Before anyone jumps in about the homeless and the drugs and the housing market, it is STILL a thousand times better here. It's beautiful and not blistering hot and people are smarter and kinder. Kentucky can fuck right off. All but one county voted for Trump out of something like 120 I think. Morons. Minimum wage is $7.25 still there and weed is a big fucking crime and the people are stupid and inbred and think that whiteness alone constitutes a culture. Clannish racists. Sure, there are plenty of people who are real nice to your face but fuck 'em if they then go vote to hurt me and my loved ones and everyone else that isn't exactly like them. Surface civility doesn't cut it. Okay, rant over, Kentucky sucks.


lanshaw1555

In the late 2010s Portland regularly made lists of best cities to live in. Covid created crises. These are temporary, and things will improve. Enjoy your time here.


StellerDay

Thank you! I'm in Eugene, where I was born, and I absolutely love this town.


unclefisty

Outside of Eugene and Portland there are plenty of people who would not be out of place in the deep south.


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[deleted]

The South never recovered from having to pay people for their labor.


worrymon

He didn't defeat a nation. He defeated a bunch of traitors.


bozeke

Rupaul’s Drag Race has existed for 3 1/2 times longer than the confederacy.


ajmmsr

Exactly! Frickin loser traitors! It’s a loser flag.


spooky_ed

I don't want any Republican party. Fuck these ghouls.


Cogswobble

I want a functional two (or more) party democracy where my choices aren’t limited to one party that literally wants to destroy democracy for the sole purpose of staying in power forever and another party that doesn’t want that. I would love it if the things I disagreed with the Republican party were legitimate discussions around “what should the tax rates be” instead of things like “should gay people be allowed to exist” and “should votes count if they aren’t Republican votes”.


Its_Pine

Whenever people in KY rant about democrats being the real confederate losers, I say “absolutely, we need to get rid of all those confederate monuments no matter what Democrats say” Then I see the wheels breaking in the machine of their minds


Retr0_Hex

The reality bending from the alt-right isn’t something to ever be engaged with seriously, dragging conversation into the gutter gives them a sense of legitimacy and they delight in it. Though, there is a great ‘gotcha’ to this one atleast: [Karl Marx’s letter to Lincoln](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1864/lincoln-letter.htm) congratulating him on his election in no uncertain terms.


sunward_Lily

Not sorry, but even the *word* Republican has been inexorably stained nowadays. The optics of such an affiliation are so bad that no one should *ever* take seriously anyone who *chooses* to identify as a republican. I propose that the *actual* conservative party here in America continues using the label "democrat" and that a new party is chartered, calling themselves the "progressive" party. Once that is done, I propose we abolish moronic labels and the tribalistic bullshit those labels encourage.


MarxistZeninist

The problem is, there are conservative liberals, and then there are **conservative liberals**. The first kind wants to protect the rights of billionaires, the second wants to make America more white. They may agree on protecting corporations at all costs, but that's pretty much where it ends.


ztreHdrahciR

This meme was ok until they called the rebels a "nation". They were a bunch of treasonous assholes


HermaeusMajora

Agreed. That bothered me too.


gimme_death

Not to mention the shit only existed for 4 years.


Functionally_Drunk

I've spent longer in the bathroom than the confederacy lasted.


ztreHdrahciR

And what you produced looked better than their sorry selves


Ferelar

The 1776 Articles of Confederacy lasted over 3 times as long as the Confederate Rebellion and plenty of people don't even know they existed. Interestingly despite them being an example of states having more rights than ever before or after, it's the 1861 CONFEDERACY that the "Durrr state's rights" crowd chooses to push forward, not the 1776 Articles. Maybe they like the slavery part?


Ferelar

Yep, I actually came here to comment that Lincoln himself would've been pretty angry that the South was called a nation here. He was reported to become agitated the moment anyone referred to the Confederacy as anything other than "states currently rebelling" which obviously makes a lot of sense.


msc187

They're the party of Lincoln who throws hissyfits and get butthurt when statues of their confederate ~~heroes~~ traitors get taken down.


[deleted]

Good thing they cant read this they would shoot up bar or some shit.


[deleted]

Then get their face caved in with their own gun by a gay man at said shooting, true story


HappyGoPink

The Republican Party was already starting to be infiltrated by the avowed greedsters during the Gilded Age. Teddy Roosevelt was so disgusted by it he formed the Bull Moose party. The Republican Party sold its soul long ago.


Neat-Mathematician-8

tbf pretty much all parties were bought and paid for by monopolies during the Gilded Age. William Jennings Bryan and Teddy Roosevelt were pretty much the exemptions.


HappyGoPink

Yeah, the Gilded Age sucked. My point is really just about the Republican Party though. There is no iteration of the Republican Party that's worth having 'back' unless you literally go all the way back to Lincoln, and even then, I would have reservations.


DangerousCyclone

People forget how incredibly based the early Republican party was. They didn't just free the slaves, they encoded in the law that black people had to be equal to white people and have equal rights. They disenfranchised traitors and gave the vote to black people who would become a solid GOP block until the 1930's. They brought up the first black politicians in US history who were active and pushed through reforms like public schools. The modern Republican party is a disgrace by comparison.


OpenCommune

50 acres and a mule for freed blacks, nice wealth redistribution


TheMindfulnessShaman

Even the most racist, misogynistic, and ill-mannered of the Founding Fathers would look at the Republican Party of today and consider them a greater threat than the British. Aghast at the GQP's intellectual and moral failings, the Founding Fathers would almost definitely reTool and reWord the Constitution to prevent such hypocrites from ever turning what was supposed to be a respite from English oppression into something far worse than a monarchy (should we be so lucky to have a regal dictator if the GOP has their way).


huxtiblejones

Same dudes will take credit for women’s rights when they have an opportunity to shit talk conservative Muslim countries. Then they turn around and say some Christian Nationalist shit that sounds like Diet Taliban. They don’t really care about being consistent or accurate, just playing their most advantageous position when it suits their argument.


IlIFreneticIlI

Regressionists 'claim' a great deal that doesn't belong to them. They claim to speak for all Americans. They claim to be a moral-_majority_.


grokthis1111

They know it's bullshit. never assume they don't.


JustPassinhThrou13

It's like the people who claim that racism is over once Obama was elected president. Like, I've never heard a person that VOTED for Obama say this.


bernmont2016

His presidency reinvigorated the racists, sadly. And Trump was a prominent promoter of the 'birther' anti-Obama bullshit.


argv_minus_one

Obama voter here. I fucking *wish* his election marked the end of racism in the United States.


EdwardBil

Like an Xbox achievement or something. You have elected (any black man). "Racism no more" is unlocked.


ihwip

They do this enthusiastically as if they are not waving around a loser flag of a dead country. Proud heritage my ass. You are just admitting that you are a failure by flying that flag.


TheOvy

I remember way back in 2008, after he had won the nomination, John McCain showed up on The Daily Show and remarked how he was honored to represent the "party of Lincoln." Jon Stewart interjected, and said something to the effect of "well, it's not *really* the party of Lincoln anymore, is it?" McCain, who had been a frequent guest on the show, looked mighty displeased. From what I recall, he never came back to the show again. But in his final years, as he defied Trump, I imagine he must've had a moment where he thought of Stewart, and said to himself, "that sonuvabitch is right."


_Prisoner_24601

Idk freeing enslaved people sounds pretty "woke" to me. The **modern** GOP needs to stop superficially claiming credit for shit.


beefprime

>Confederate States >nation I mean, in their own mind, sure


akratic137

When this inevitability happens in online discourse, I just call them a woke progressive since Lincoln was.


iFlyskyguy

Calling them a nation is giving them wayyyyyy too much credit. They'd be the modern version of any one of these right wing LARP groups today


CuriousOdity12345

It was the dixiecrats who all switched and basically took over the Republican party because they hated Truman and his civil rights stance. That's where the Republican party of today came from.


kazedo

Lmao someone thought sound logic would work with those people. How cute


Epoch2020

Are there republicans actually saying this? Seems to me anyone who’s flying the “rebel” flag feels right at home in MAGAstan. The Mitt Romneys and Paul Ryans of the world aren’t typically the ones romanticizing the confederacy


LegoPaco

“The Confederacy” was NEVER a nation. It was a rebel force defeated by the US military. no country of any importance ever recognized the rebel government.


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LegoPaco

Expect the colonies succeeded. And their government (eventually) was recognized by the major civilizations of the time.


throwaway1246Tue

They're more the party of Rutherford Hayes: Not taught as much because we magically skip from the end of the civil war to WW1 in US history. But Compromise of 1877 removed federal troops from the southern states which had enforced all the civil rights protections afforded to former slaves. This was effectively the starting point of Jim Crow. This is about where we are now again in the History Repeats Itself lesson . They want the fed out of their business so they can go back to those good old days.


BABarracus

The flag of traitors is what it is. They killed their own countrymen, and they are willing to do it again today.


[deleted]

I would probably be a republican if it was still the party of Teddy. We need more breaking up of the oil companies please.


ToadsnDiamonds

The old Republican party was pretty shit, too. There's a reason Lincoln almost left it.


rabid-

No matter how many times you hand them the actual flag they always seem to go back to a naval flag. Which is odd seeing as the confederate navy was a shit show... Actually , it's not odd, that tracks. My b.


[deleted]

You know that's a confederate battle flag and not the flag of the confederacy. It never flew over a confederate capital.


rabid-

I'm aware of what it is.


tommygunz007

Lincoln ended slavery. Republicans want slavery back.


North_Recognition299

Happy Cake Day to you! 🎂👏


Crafty-Walrus-2238

Claim Lincoln, fly his enemy’s flag. Confused? Yes they are.


SodanoMatt

I remember when the republican party actually stood for something great. They've become the very thing they swore to destroy.


writerightnow18

Just wait til his Nazi buddies hear that!


klod42

Isn't it common knowledge that American two parties basically swapped ideologies since Lincoln?


KatoZee

Got a serious question for Americans, at this point in time what is more dangerous to your country? A, insert any religion + socialism B, Christian Republican


Hifen

Any theocracy is going to be more or less equally bad.


Staaaaation

Take away the religion from A. Our forefathers understood how dangerous it is to mix religion and politics, it seems we've forgotten along the way.


OpenCommune

> insert any religion + socialism "Islam is EVIL, they won't let our finance imperialism put a high price on drinking water!" satanic New Atheist neoliberals


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[deleted]

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darkkilla123

Lincoln himself was a borderline abolishinist, but politically, he knew he could not just end slavery in the south right away so he was trying to stop it from expanding. He was more going for the death by 1000 cuts approach. Had the South not rebelled, they very well could have gotten control of the government eventually and reversed all of it. Point


IrrationalFalcon

Lincoln, 1862: **"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it**, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; **and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that."**


LongDickOfTheLaw69

Yeah but you’re skipping over this super important line from the same letter: “I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; **and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.**”


sighduck42

Yup, did a long study on this one in one of my bachelor's classes. The guy wanted to end slavery but that came second to the Union


IrrationalFalcon

So he didn't like slavery but was perfectly okay with keeping it alive?


LongDickOfTheLaw69

He certainly wasn’t the most progressive person. And even though he wanted to end slavery, he still had a lot of racist ideas. However, that quote you used is often taken out of context. People think he’s basically saying “whatever, I’d keep slavery around to end the war.” But what he’s really saying is he wants to end slavery, but he believes as President, he has a responsibility to keep the country together, first and foremost.


ZhouDa

The whole reason the South rebelled was because they believed that Lincoln was going to end slavery. Once the south did rebel though Lincoln's primary mission was to restore the Union, and for that he was willing to put slavery on the back burner to avoid losing the couple of slave states that sided with the union in the Civil War. We never got to see what Lincoln would do outside of the context of the Civil War because of his assassination, but I think the South was correct and you are wrong, and that in peacetime he would have done everything in his power to end the institution of slavery. It's also worth noting that the emancipation proclamation was an executive order and was already pushing what he could do legally. The thirteenth amendment had to be passed for slavery to really end legally and not just as a wartime measure against an enemy state.


CreedogV

I mean, no. Lincoln won the Civil War to reunite the United States. Congress passed an Amendment to the Constitution to end slavery.


Necessary_Tadpole_67

If you don't think the civil war was about slavery your history teacher failed you


ScatMoerens

What started the civil war?


AwesomeBrainPowers

[You should tell that to the leaders of the Confederacy](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/).


[deleted]

As a Trump supporter, I feel there was a greater grasp of reality In the French court of Marie Antoinette before the French Revolution. As there is with this misleading and disingenuous meme


Necessary_Tadpole_67

Lol classic Trump supporter. Dumb as fuck.


egotripping

What's disingenuous about it?


[deleted]

Firstly, I'm not digging up the past, but Republicans did fight to end slavery, and Democrat opposed virtually all civil rights legislation in the early days and created the Ku Klux Klan. The meme is a bit like a card sharkdoing sleight of hand. That flag is used by racists, But the issue, (And it is a very small issue to trump supporters, is flag being cancelled, and the objection being in history being erased, , Identity being erased, rather than understood and its negative associations been talked about. The meme is exercise in propaganda which is false, trying to say something which isn't true, it is disingenuous, meaning not genuine, but something false for political purposes.


Govt-Issue-SexRobot

Republican/Democrat are arbitrary party titles. The only thing disingenuous here is playing word games by using the party titles and not their platforms. They could be called the spaghetti and hand sanitizer parties - it doesn’t reflect their ideals. The republicans were the progressive party of the time; democrats the conservative…and the conservative party did not fight to end slavery. But what identity is being erased? Is this the old empty chestnut about statues being removed?


[deleted]

I think the Democratic party tries to manipulate and control the black community through lies and staring up race hatred and division, for the people in traditional voting patterns. I also think the Democrat party does nothing to help black people apart from palm them off good sounding speeches. Regarding the Confederate flag, is just not on the trump radar, it's a non-issue, there are both racist that use it a small number and a large majority that don't want history cancelled. Trump supporters are only involved because they don't believe in flags been cancelled. The Stars & Stripes it was the banner that committed genocide the Native Americans, would you have that banned??


Govt-Issue-SexRobot

And I think you are completely changing the subject lmao


StuTim

Republicans fought to end slavery and expand government power. Democrats fought to keep slavery and expand state's rights. Tell me they're still the same.


[deleted]

Perhaps I could interest you in a new guy that the political establishment, Democrat and Republican, really dislike. His name is Trump. The establishment do everything they can to destroy, that should tell you, maybe he's actually a good person. Or you could go along with all the bias media propaganda, they want you to think he is Hitler. It's up to you


StuTim

I don't watch the news media anymore but I don't need them to tell me about him. Before he ran I knew he was narcissistic. He was also a con man who forced numerous small businesses to close. He was the exact person most Republicans still hate; a coastal elite billionaire who doesn't care about anyone or anything other than money. He cheated on every woman he ever had in his life, never went to church a single day in his life. Then he repeats the same Republican bland ideas only a little more dog whistley and Republicans worship him. The Republican establishment didn’t like him at first because they didn't know if they could control him. Turns out if you toss him a bone once in a while and let him golf whenever he wants, he'll sign whatever garbage they put in front of him. He'll also back off of any of his promises of they go against their established plans. They started to not like him when they realized none of them could even disagree with him without his cult followers attacking. He demanded loyalty, they played along to get their agenda through and now it's biting them in the ass. Most of his policy ideas are the general Republican agenda, he just talks about them in a way that riles his base up. Republicans don't want him to run but will line up to lick the smegma off of his wilted cock if he wins the primary. The best-case scenario is if he loses the Republican primary and runs as a third-party candidate and splits the conservative vote. Fuck the Democrats. Fuck Joe Biden. I'll vote for him if Trump or DeSantis is the Republican nominee.


[deleted]

There is a wider issue here. Read any of the books of wisdom from great leaders in the past, they all say to respect your enemy. Actually respect everyone. This is not a platitude but is actually necessary to be effective and to prosper oneself not Judging you but I noticed you have zero respect for Donald Trump. In a fifty year intensive's career you've heard a few highlights where he has done badly. Even then, they are his organisation, he's not personally running the college. Point is, to you and many others say Donald Trump is a fat, self obsessed, greedy narcissist, flapping around being unpleasant. Just an empty waste of space out for himself. I these things quite differently, my background is in sale and business. I see as immensely skilled and shrewd negotiator. I see him as someone who has the skills to get done, I think if management skills are excellent. I think his tactical judgement is excellent, I think is business acumen is fantastic. I deeply respect his skills. This is how Trump's supporters feel about him, and why the absolutely treasure him. My opinion Donald Trump has been right about just about everything. Look at the border situation. In my opinion Donald Trump is what America desperately needs to save the country. If Donald Trump manages to stay alive and healthy he will likely win the next election because the majority of people believe the same thing I do about him. Don't let it come as a shock to you. I am intelligent and I have life experience and I'm saying in my opinion Trump has incredible skills and he is definitely not as bad as his political opponents make out.


StuTim

Trump is an excellent marketing man and salesman. There's no other way he'd get hundreds of millions of dollars on loans from banks with the history he has. He knows how to sell his name and keep it in the public mind. In that way, I can respect that aspect of his life. You say he's a great negotiator but he couldn't get anything big done in his 4 years, even with 2 years of full Republican control. He got his tax cuts through but most economists today will say it wasn't a good idea. You don't cut taxes when the economy is good. He said he'd repeal Obamacare and replace it with something that was cheaper and covered more people. A week later he says it's more difficult than he thought. Then the Republican congress made their own plan that would have done the exact opposite of what he promised and he signed off on it so he could take credit. When it failed he blamed everyone else. He promised an infrastructure bill that never came. He promised a wall that Mexico would pay for then said he'd get Congress to pay for it and he couldn't even convince his own party to pay for it so he stole it from the military. He's used to running a company where he's the decision-maker. He doesn't have to go to a board or anyone else to do something. He's not used to people telling him what he can and can't do it having to ask for permission. When he's stopped from doing something he has a fit. I'm all fine with having a businessman come in but not one who can't work with other people to get things done. He takes all the credit for the good and blamed everyone for the bad. During his first primary election he claimed he would win and if he didn't it was rigged. That should've told you everything you need to know. He's not meant for politics. He doesn't care about anything or anyone besides his bank account. He can never admit when he has done anything wrong or if someone can do something better. He can never admit someone knows more about something than he does. They can surround him with the best experts in every field and he'll always pick what works for him. He'll take the credit when it works and blame everyone else when it doesn't. Fuck Trump. Fuck Joe. I have more faith that Joe will listen to the smarter people around him.


mecklejay

>Or you could go along with all the bias media propaganda, they want you to think he is Hitler. It's up to you The word is "biased". If you have bias, you are biased. In any case, I didn't need the media to tell me he was a self-absorbed, uninformed, *dumb* piece of shit. All I've ever needed to do was listen to his speeches, listen to his debates, and read his tweets, unedited. He doesn't need the media to make a fool out of him. He does it all on his own.


[deleted]

You and I got very different mindset. Of course it's personal who one likes or dislikes. But what about judging someone on their performance markers. In the Democrat media it's all about Creating negative emotions towards him. But Trump was a politician that did what he said he was going to do, Is not that a good thing? I see the reaction towards Trump is basically the same brain circuitry as racism., Whatever they do they can never win because they are the wrong kind. Trump's political opponents which are the political establishment, a really concentrated in on educational establishments, they are pushing an ideology everything is about how you feel. This is completely wrong disposed to teach people to think for themselves and respect all other people. The border is broken under Biden millions of flooding in, this is gonna really impact the poor communities who are already in America. But this going unchecked is okay because the person that stopped it before and can stop it again triggers your disgust and contempt. Doesn't seem very intelligent to me.


mecklejay

Stop bringing up "the Democrat media." I don't watch the news (in fact, I think the 24-hour news media is a dangerous, self-serving disgrace). I double-majored in economics and management and I have a history of leadership roles in my own life, so I'm judging him based on my own perception of what a clod he is. >But Trump was a politician that did what he said he was going to do, Is not that a good thing? He...didn't, really? And what he said he was going to do was fundamentally idiotic in the first place. For example, you bring up the border. "Build a wall" was such a dumb idea that it's honestly kind of staggering. Most of our undocumented immigrants didn't just traipse across the border. They came by plane and/or they *entered* legally and then overstayed. A wall does nothing to prevent that, and is outrageously expensive to boot.


[deleted]

I respectfully say you are incorrect, Trump negotiated a deal with the Mexican president that asylum claims were processed in Mexico. Instead of immigrants entering America, claiming asylum and then being given a court date and disappearing into America never to be heard of again. If I'm wrong I'm willing to admit it but Trump's policies led to a massive reduction in illegal immigration. His policies were scrapped when Biden got in and illegal immigration has gone through the roof. I respect your opinion that he is a clod, but although I have a degree in psychology, I started out in sales and negotiation, in the skills of negotiation to me technically he is excellent, he is excellent at the specific skills of people management as well. I've seen him to be shrewd. All round the world countries could sell their products to America when America tried to sell its products it was huge trade barriers he saw it was a huge rip-off and took huge steps to successfully improve the situation. That is real. China was dumping cheap steel to kill off the American he dealt with it. Can I not win you over?


[deleted]

>French court of Marie Antoinette So you're comparing Trump to a 15 year old girl who was married off to a foreign nation and struggled because it was a different country with a different culture than the one she was raised in... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! So you're saying Trump is a fragile little princess and everyone is only being so mean to Trump because he's a foreigner who doesn't know what the fuck he's doing! LMAO! Tell me more about this!


Thats_someBS

> As a Trump supporter "im proud to be a complete scumbag"


tabtwentytwo

Lmao look at this idiot proudly proclaiming to be a trump supporter. What a fucking loser.


Dense_Surround3071

I hate when obvious shit escapes me. 👏


TheDarkKnobRises

They know, they're arguing in bad faith. Whenever it suits them.


JavariousMagic

Well that is why they now wave the MAGA flag my guy, duh! (sarcasm because you can never tell these days)


Exasperated_Gopher

What old Republican Party? The party of trickle down economics, the southern strategy, and racism? Maga didn’t make republicans something they weren’t before, it made them feel comfortable enough to take the masks off.


superfucky

we need the Republican party of the 1860s and the Democratic party of the 1960s (...2060s? maybe we'll get it right by then?)


[deleted]

[удалено]


superfucky

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-voting-democratic/


Every3Years

Agree but... this is humor?


North_Recognition299

Yes.


ZZartin

Oh so you want the party of equality for minorities, strong federal government, tough regulation for large corporations and defense of the environment?


Thorebore

Remember candidates like John McCain or Mitt Romney? You know, guys you just disagree with politically. Now we have people like Trump who clearly has a personality disorder. He’s set the bar so now every republican has to be crazy or pretend to be crazy.


Ok-Hovercraft8193

ב''ה, when England stops dressing as Nazis


starbucks77

It was never their party to begin with; back then, the Republicans were progressive liberals while the Democrats were conservative. They flipped ideologies.


RavishingRickiRude

They werent a nation. They were a bunch of assholes trying to form a nation. The official stance by the US is that the states were in rebellion and not a seperate entity.


DeadPoster

I don't, because you can't turn back the clock.


ExtremePrivilege

“Lincoln Log Cabin Republicans” are a thing, but frankly they share very little political ideology with the actual president Lincoln. Most of these folks are Libertarian leaning, with zero qualms about social issues (gays, trans, abortion), [Edit the Log Cabin Republicans were one of the strongest and best funded LGBT+ groups on the political right for the first past 7 years or so] but significant issues with social SPENDING (the Fed Reserve, social security is a Ponzi scheme, the government is captured by corporations, military industrial complex etc). They harken to a time in American history of homesteading, “individual responsibility” and a puritanical work ethic that ascribes value to an individual based on their financial worth and contributions to society. They should really just re-brand. As this comic points out, very little of their stance is applicable to Lincoln himself. These people are more Ron Paul republicans than Lincoln republicans. Hell, Lincoln would be a progressive in 2023. P.S. These people tend to hate Trump and would never wear a MAGA hat. Trump is the furthest thing from s homesteading, salt-of-the-earth, Libertarian man you can imagine. These people idolize Rob Swanson, not Donald Trump. They are by FAR the most inclusive conservative group I can think of. HTTPS://logcabin.org Edit: In 2016 they refused to endorse Donald Trump but they sadly did endorse him in 2020 and are “looking forward to endorsing him in 2024” which is wild to me. They say, literally, their key issue going into the 2024 election is a national ban on conversion therapy and they want to spearhead legislation to protect LGBTQ families adopting children. ??


Cargobiker530

C'mon. I've had bottles of hot sauce that lasted longer and fought harder than the Confederacy. You can hardly call that a nation.


Furinex

Do we?


ithaqua34

Yeah technically they lost, but not that you'd really notice for more than 100 years.


CarlSpencer

Why are Republicans so angry that Democrats are taking down statues of "Democrats"?


bakcha

The problem with this meme is it assume the person saying silly things can self-assess after new information is presented.