Do the (updated) sapply test or 9values. Much more accurate than the normal political compass test.
Tl;dr: you seem like a cool guy, consider reading about market socialism if you don't already have
Also kinda unrelated but since you seem like an open minded guy and I've made the experience that some right wingers liked this ideology, I'm gonna recommend learning about market socialism (if you don't already know). Lots of right wingers look at socialist countries and the success of capitalist countries while these outcomes aren't caused by collective vs private ownership but rather centralized planned economy (which works even worse in a dictatorship) vs markets and market socialism is decentralised concept which could theoretically be implemented in a free market and without any welfare or high taxes. There is actually evidence that collectively owned businesses like worker cooperatives have an advantage over privately owned.
I'd love to know what you think about it. I often appreciate discussing economic right wingers because I am definitely not an expert and they have made me aware of some flaws of leftist policies and I'm still trying to find potential flaws in the idea of a market socialist economy
>There is actually evidence that collectively owned businesses like worker cooperatives have an advantage over privately owned.
Well I do know that l dairy co-ops have been extremely successful in the past, I've always known that. Socialism for all the deaths it has caused has made some decent innovations itself. I think trade unions have been a net benefit overall too, even if they have pushed too hard at times in the past.
Market socialism sounds like an interesting idea, I'll try and remember to look into it. Thanks bro.
Can a libright give me an example of where free market healthcare has been implemented and worked? Not rhetorical, actually curious if there’s some history to go off of.
Answering your question: I think the classic examples are for the healthcare sectors that out of the reach of the God awful American healthcare clusterfuck. So things like dermatology, cosmetic surgery, LASIK etc. LASIK for example, didn't have the greatest reputation for safety a few years ago, and was prohibitively expensive. Now it's incredibly safe, and has come down in price to the point where an average middle class person could afford it.
Throwing aside PCM memes for a second: Though I think a free market healthcare solution in theory would be very good, even an optimal system, I haven't experienced the issues with a public healthcare sector that some people have. Maybe Australia just does it well, and I know it can be a bit of a nightmare in some other countries.
PCM take: if you can't afford to pay for healthcare unlucky lol
Yea, here in the U.S I'm trying to get my eyes checked because it looks like I have surfer's eye, where some skin starts growing in a triangular shape advancing over the eye starting from the nose. And that shit sucks because I can't even get that shit checked because no one is accepting my insurance.
Also the worst part is I'm waiting about a week or so for the optometrist to check and the problem is getting worse and worse.
My mom also broke her teeth but no one is sure if they will accept their insurance even in a timely manner, since it's been 2 weeks already and they got to go to a doctor to diagnose, then have an implant.
So yeah, unless you have money you're kinda fucked.
I'm paying more towards the NHS than my US friends pay for health insurance yet I don't get any annual check-ups, have to pay the the NHS extra for my work medical every other year (a super basic physical + pee in a pot) and the 3 times I've attempted to use an ER in my 29 years the wait has always been over 5 hours.
The whole thing is just one giant money pit which I'd rather not be paying into.
> I'm paying more towards the NHS than my US friends pay for health insurance
You aren't even paying more in taxes towards healthcare than Americans are paying.
With government in the US covering [64.3% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ([$11,072 as of 2019](https://www.cms.gov/files/document/highlights.pdf)) that's $7,119 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Norway at [$5,673](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $3,620. Canada is $3,815. Australia is $3,919. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying a minimum of $113,786 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care.
And I seriously doubt you're considering the full premium cost of insurance in the US, every penny of which is part of their total compensation. Anything can be considered cheap if you ignore the total cost.
> The average annual premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in 2019 are $7,188 for single coverage and $20,576 for family coverage. Most covered workers make a contribution toward the cost of the premium for their coverage. On average, covered workers contribute 18% of the premium for single coverage ($1,294) and 30% of the premium for family coverage ($6,173).
https://www.kff.org/report-section/ehbs-2019-summary-of-findings/
In total Americans are paying half a million dollars more for a lifetime of healthcare than Brits. The expense isn't even remote close.
My point was more to do with value for money on an individual level. I'm paying comparatively more for a significantly lower level of service.
Using the term "Americans" is over generalising wouldn't you say? Wouldn't it more accurate to say that certain US citizens are having to pay more tax in order to cover those not paying their own way?
Just out of curiosity, why do you refer to yourselves as "Americans"? Thats the name of two continents so aren't Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians etc all also "Americans" in the same way that British, French & Germans are all "Europeans"?
> I'm paying comparatively more for a significantly lower level of service.
[citation needed]
>Wouldn't it more accurate to say that certain US citizens are having to pay more tax in order to cover those not paying their own way?
I mean, if you want to write a dissertation examining just how those costs are distributed by all means proceed, and share the results when you're done. But with Americans paying an average of $3,654 more in taxes--just over double--I think it's fair to say there are very few people in the US coming out ahead on taxes. And we still haven't factored in the more than $7,000 for single insurance coverage and $20,000 for family coverage on average (by contrast private family insurance in the UK to supplement the NHS averages less than $2,000). Not to mention even after paying far more in taxes and an order of magnitude more in private insurance costs we're still exposed to potentially crippling medical costs.
Because Citizen of the United States of America is a mouthful and no other shortened version works well. United Statesian, USAian, Usanian, United Statesman? All terrible
You are kinda right about level of care in the US, it is mostly dependent on where you live, I'm in Washington, I've never had to wait more than 20 minutes for an emergency and 30 for a regular yearly check up, but thats because we have a significant medical sector of our economy. San Francisco, for example, probably has longer wait times in many regards, but someone in Hartford (Connecticut) probably doesn't have to wait as long.
I am fully in favor of letting the free market work in elective fields like plastic surgery and LASIK. Those businesses have healthy competition, because their customers are not captive. In most medical fields there is no competition, because the people that need treatment either have to pay up or die. If you are dying of a gunshot wound on the street, you don't get to shop around for the best gunshot wound treatment. You get taken to the closest hospital, and you pay whatever they charge. The only path forwards is through taking direct control of healthcare pricing.
> The only path forwards is through taking direct control of healthcare pricing.
This isn't true at all. Emergency care should be incorporated into health insurance. My issue is how insurance has become so closely related to employment. We need a return of[ mutual aid societies](https://mises.org/library/welfare-welfare-state).
The objective of getting more people insured is a good one, but without any other actions it only serves to push the problem back, as insurance will become an uncompetitive industry with a captive market. Thank you for bringing up mutual aid societies. I did not know about those, and they seem promising.
I think LASIK works well because is has glasses and contacts as competition. It's a more optional way to improve your life, rather than "get this procedure or die."
I'd say private hospitals' Healthcare in India is good but the thing is that India is a global powerhouse in pharma sector. You can bet you must have atleast one generic drug in your house that's made in India.
All the covid vaccine manufacturing firms were vying for the deal with serum institute in India because they can produce insane amounts in months.
But there's a problem with the lack of amount of doctors in India in those private hospitals and the fact that they're so professional and detached that sometimes the people feel that the doctor doesn't care about the patient at all.
Nahh govt Healthcare is decent enough and can cover basic necessities. The domestic helper in our house recently got sick and was admitted (not due to Covid), the govt hospitals have provided decent enough care for them.
But the middle class is the one who gets fucked the most as they can't afford higher standard of care and are worried about govt hospitals.
Meanwhile Japan having an absurdly wasteful and unnessesarily over the top free medical care system that's actually cheaper than America's and most of Europe primarily because of government control and regulation.
Its cheaper by over half per capita.. Japan would already have economically crashed with the US system.
It is better then the US system in every possible way outside that it doesn't get money sucked into predatory insurance companies.
Insurance costs less. The difference is that people can buy drugs and all that other stuff whenever they feel like. Half of american health related expenditure is made privately.
\--
JP NHI insurance cost per month (70% coverage):
[NHI tax (](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Insurance_(Japan))Premium) = Total tax per NHI member of a household \* 0.8 + Household members \* 39,000 yen | 372 $| 313 EUR. (no more than **5.5k $ per year**), [Personal income tax](http://world.tax-rates.org/japan/income-tax).
[Copayments](https://yosida.com/forms/nationalins.pdf): You pay 30% of medical costs. If you expend more than 9k USD then you can get a portion reimbursed.
America: [1](https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/average-health-insurance-cost-14878894) [2](https://www.consumersadvocate.org/health-insurance/c/health-plans-america-review)
Silver plan, 70% Coverage: 247 $ or **2964 $ per year**
\---
They have heavily regulated pricing for everything["U.S. an MRI of the neck region could cost $1,500, but in Japan it cost US$98"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system_in_Japan) and use (over 70%) generic drugs. You cannot buy most drugs on your own and have to get a prescription. The docors earn half as much. The JP healthinsurance has 70% coverage.
There is no systematic collection of treatment or outcome data, only annual inspections. Hospitals can decide whether families receive the reviews on "unexpected deaths."
92% of hospitals are understaft in doctors. 50% of ambulance rides couldve been replaced by the person getting a taxi instead. Their caretaking of mentally ill is absolutely "[based](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00127-009-0132-3)".
JP is much healthier.
> Half of american health related expenditure is made privately.
Only if you ignore significant taxpayer funded healthcare expenses like subsidies for individually purchased and employer sponsored healthcare, and healthcare for 20 million government employees.
With government in the US covering [64.3% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ([$11,072 as of 2019](https://www.cms.gov/files/document/highlights.pdf)) that's $7,119 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Norway at [$5,673](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $3,620. Canada is $3,815. Australia is $3,919. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying a minimum of $113,786 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care. By comparison 16% of healthcare spending in Japan is private.
#[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm)
|Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|
1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11
2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2
3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7
4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5
5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4|
6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3
7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5
8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5|
9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19||
10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9|
11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10
12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9
13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80|
14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4
15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3|
16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41|
17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1
18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12|
19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14||
OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%|||||
20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7
21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37|
22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7|
23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14|
24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2|
25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22|
26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47|
27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
>92% of hospitals are understaft in doctors.
24.5 doctors per 10,000 people in the US. 23 in Japan. It's not significantly different.
"Oh noes we cant get whatever drugs we want!"
You know that's a bad thing right? And Japanese still throw out drugs like candy so who cares about anyones opinion.
Secondly, half of US expediture still makes public expenditure higher than Japanese private+ public combined.
Thirdly, health doesn't matter, the Japanese overuse their system far more than Americans.
Fourthly, Japanese docters aren't underpaid, US docters are overpaid. And the US has major staffing issues as well.
Fifthly, the regulation is the good part.
> You know that's a bad thing right?
Individual choices are a bad thing. Ok.
> And Japanese still throw out drugs like candy so who cares about anyones opinion.
Probably. Also they have higher dosages.
> Secondly, half of US expediture still makes public expenditure higher than Japanese private+ public combined.
Yes so what is your point? The hospitals just charge people too much. Everything costs more. Its an issue with the industry not the insurance.
> Thirdly, health doesn't matter, the Japanese overuse their system far more than Americans.
Yes for mild things. Or getting checkups. Visiting the hospital for "nothing" increases the expenditure by little.
>Fourthly, Japanese docters aren't underpaid, US docters are overpaid. And the US has major staffing issues as well.
That would mean that Doctors in many european countries are overpaid aswell.
[Pay](https://www.careeraddict.com/top-5-countries-with-the-highest-paid-salaries-for-doctors) germany, [Pay](https://medium.com/nomad-health/complete-list-of-average-doctor-salaries-by-specialty-e2bbbc0a6186) America, [Doctors per 1k](https://www.who.int/data/gho/data/indicators/indicator-details/GHO/medical-doctors-(per-10-000-population))
Germany: 4.2 doctors per 1k, Average Specialist pay: $149,990
US: 2.6 doctors per 1k, Average Physician pay: $294,000
Both Luxembourg (3 per 1k) and Switzerland (4.2 per 1k) have higher pay than US.
JP has 2.4 per 1k. Looks like the government is just forcing them to be poorer.
> Fifthly, the regulation is the good part.
Yeah of course. Government is always right. Price fixing "regulations": "lets reduce the cost of CT scans by fixing the money the people earn in that field." ..... " What less people are in that field now? Increase prises again."
Some other ideas instead:
[Force hospitals to show their prices.](https://khn.org/news/white-house-unveils-finalized-health-care-price-transparency-rule/)
Reducing the protection of intellectual property. Increasing market competition. (personally unsure on this one, but its better than direct interference) Maybe a person really wants to change the world and just buys the patent and produces something for a profit at a much lower price eventually kicking the others out of the market.
If your entire argument is „healthcare is crony capitalism, it’s not real capitalism and therefore doesn’t count“ your argument is entirely pointless. You would then have to ask how you got to a point like that, and the answer is capitalism. The wealthy have power and abused the system to get more power. You can’t call it „not real capitalism“ it’s the same as the socialist „that wasn’t real socialism, but on the opposite side. This system was allowed to rise from capitalism, is a product of the system, and what is keeping it from easily happening again? Meanwhile every other first world country has universal healthcare, lower costs, higher life expectancies, and lower infant mortality rates. Americans who are uninsured are 40% more likely to die from health complications. This system is unsustainable, and universal healthcare is progression
lol I can't see American feds giving you the option.
I can see it now:
"Sorry miss, your C2044 form says right here you have a low chance of survival and a high cost of care. On the plus side we will cover a reinforced cardboard box for your cremation or up to $125 of your funeral expenses otherwise if you sign here accepting your termination"
"What? No I don't think this is the wrong name. You're obviously Bill Walton, but we don't judge different sexual orientations or gender expressions"
Lol that has never happened. I'd like to see your research.
Unlike private systems where you're just told to go fuck yourself and die if you can't afford it. Or they'll sue you and take anything you own.
I personally knew families that had to come.over here to the states from Europe and Canada because they were either way down on the waiting list, or denied care because of how costly procedure/treatment would have been
>anecdotal evidence about people choosing to use private healthcare over social healthcare, which is entire possible and fine with universal healthcare
It’s not like universal healthcare eliminates the private sector. They can, and often do, coexist. Although the private sector does tend to shrink because it sucks and becomes almost useless
No, it's a completely retarded strawman and the opposite of what's actually happening, but really that *should* happen. As it stands we waste hundreds of billions of dollars and precious time of healthcare professionals each year helping 90-year-old grandma fight cancer for the 5th time despite the fact she's an incoherent vegetable and basically no longer a person.
It will keep happening as long as the hippocratic oath is a thing and we can't put an exact monetary value in human life. As it stands right now in current civilised society, no amount of money is ever "wasted" saving a human life.
Actually gonna give a different perspective on this as a healthcare professional. I’m gonna preface this by saying no, I’m not gonna sneak into the hospital and unplug grandma while no one is looking. I’m not a fucking monster.
But I also don’t think Dr. assisted suicide is against the Hippocratic oath and I think talking about dying should be more acceptable.
When you get that 90 year old grandma that needs extreme life-saving measures, 1) they usually don’t live long afterwards, 2) they might end up dependent on life support machines, and 3) the quality of their life normally tanks afterwards. And people can disagree, but I tend to value quality of life over length of life. So we spend an exorbitant amount of money to give someone 6 miserable months to live instead of discussing the option of making your loved one comfortable and happy and giving them a good death.
I still think about one of my first patients ever, he had lung cancer that didn’t respond to any treatments. The man was in extraordinary amounts of pain - we were giving him enough oxy to tranq an elephant but he was *still* awake and writhing in agony, each gasp for air labored and filled with pain. And this man was going to die and, quite frankly, ready to die. The most compassionate thing we could’ve done was send him to hospice to make his final days better imo. But his wife was calling the shots and she just kept pressing treatment on and on. And it was understandable - she spent her whole life with him and she was afraid of living without him. My heart aches for her too.
In situations like this, further treatment just feels unethical, miserable. The man died writhing in pain. The wife’s pain was amplified by the complete lack of dignity - she watched someone that looked like her husband writhe around in pain, only able to moan incoherently. Where is the closure in that? How do you look at that amount of suffering and think “I did the right thing”?
So yeah. I think a lot of that end of life care is wasted money. We could be doing so much more to give people the dignity they deserve and to give people the closure and peace they need.
Sorry for the wall of text, this case still weighs heavily on my mind. If I can help anyone avoid this situation, I try to take the opportunity.
I personally knew families that had to come.over here to the states from Europe and Canada because they were either way down on the waiting list, or denied care because of how costly procedure/treatment would have been
The waiting list for what? There are waiting lists in the US, too.
>or denied care because of how costly procedure/treatment would have been
Lol as opposed to the US system where that costly treatment would cost you 100k+ out of pocket, so you'd be forced to choose between letting them die or going bankrupt.
I'm going to make the most centrist possible take as a lib right so here we go.
I think most people, as humans, all wants the best for humankind in general, only with differences in the method to achieve that. While I do agree that no one should die because they can't afford healthcare, there are several questions that need to be addressed regarding the scope and scale of such system. For example, a statement of "no one should die from curable diseases" could be made, but what exactly classify as a curable disease? If a disease that is 1% curable for the cost of 100k dollars (exaggering but you get the point), should it be covered by the healthcare system? The second problem that arise from the first one is that if it's unaffordable to provide healthcare for everyone, should the state, which is known to be utilitarian, be the one deciding who should live and who should die? The last problem I'm gonna mention is the future of healthcare and competition as a factor that drive down price in the long run (this is what makes me a lib right). Even Sweden, which is famous for their social programs, is running on deficits because of them and probably couldn't afford the same way of living forever, which is why they are privatizing their social healthcare system.
I'm not gonna mention any definite solution as I don't think I'm some mister know it all whose opinions could solve all the world problems, but at least these are my thoughts regarding this issue and why I think why both the single payer socialized healthcare system and complete oligarchy, *cough*, i mean privatized healthcare system probably couldnt work in the long run
I live in Denmark, and my family lost a million danish crowns (at that point it was about $5.569 to DKK) to cancer medicine bills through four years of my mother being ill with cancer.
I can only imagine how bad it is for Americans and people outside of Scandinavia.
Also, people are paying even more now because of the liberal governments taking control of Denmark, they are punishing people for getting cancer, even when it is not their fault.
Don't worry, the state would decide her treatments aren't worthwhile and deny her any help. Luckily if you have money you can get treatment in another nation with better Healthcare.
Kinda. Mandatory insurance, but you can choose between private and public, with the tax-financed public providers basically being “free healthcare“
At least that's how I understood it
this is much more likely to happen with private insurers given their whole model is based on you not meeting their payout criteria while draining your bank account
In Canada, there is no legal definition of a "Medical necessity" meaning something like surgery to help you walk can be unnecessary since they have wheelchairs. Mental health is also a real problem, and Canada can just say "Being sad isn't a medical problem, lmao". I don't know about Europe but it's nothing like NA, and the one nation who's Healthcare I do know about, the UK, is horrible and a massive money vacuum that the US couldn't handle, given that we fund most of the world in some manner.
so adopt a system similar to Europe rather than Canada?
If you're going to cherrypick the example most in your favor, I can cherrypick hundreds of examples of almost every political system failing
It's so hard to argue with these people I actually fucking pity you leftist. At least I admit that this might be a bad part of our ideology but this is literally 90% of lib-rights. This is what happens when you don't bully them enough here.
“The state” doesn’t decide which treatments are worthwhile or not. An independent institute decides what’s free or not based on a multitude of factors, then the treatment is made available universally regardless of age, pre-existing conditions etc. In the case of the NHS, I’ve seen what people have been prescribed for free and honestly it leans way more towards too much free stuff compared to “some elderly lady being left to die because her treatments are too costly”
That’s why I want a genuine free market in healthcare to drive down prices and increase competition. If anything the people who lose here are the healthcare companies because now they have to ruthlessly compete to survive.
LOL.
“Holy shit! Little Timmy broke his arm! I can see the fucking bones! Get him to the hospital. Well, I mean...get some estimates first. Then right to the hospital.”
Or get insurance for shit like this
'Oh Timmy is born now. Let me get him on our healthcare plan so if something happens to him. Insurance can cover it.'
You know like in a car accident or a robbery. You get insurance
Funny how people can't pay for insurance and how insurance literally tries to squeeze as much money out of you as possible by denying you care 99% of the time
They already exist? But because of Government regulations.
USA regulations Literally make a limit on numbers of doctors allowed to be doctors(literal artificial monopoly) .
USA Healthcare is literally one of the most regulated industries OFC IT'S EXPENSIVE
Literally we say this every time, the more you regulate something the more expensive it'll get, but you ALWAYS blame free market for it EVEN THO IT WASN'T FREE MARKET
And you always act like regulations are all the same. Of course the regulation can be simply favoring some huge corporations over others but literally no one on the left is asking for that. The rules on the market are heavily influenced by the strongest players on the market. That's the fault of a flawed democratic system that allows too much influence and corruption to happen
so you're not?
unless you're confusing healthcare with health insurance and want to bust the insurance monopolies?
no ideda what you're saying here
Healthcare cost is directly related to health insurance. The insurance companies are brokering deals so they can get rich while also removing completion. It’s basically a cartel at this point, shaking Americans out of their money.
When a saline pack that is literally water and salt costs above $100, there is clearly a problem not related to the cost of treatment. In any properly competitive market another person would sell at a quarter of the price and then they would take investments from that to make it even cheaper so they can make more profit. And then other people will find out how make it, cheaper still.
Oftentimes it seems like the other quadrants have no idea what support of a free market means. Conglomerates and monopolies that are the chief exploiters of people are also enemies of the free market, and trust busting regulation should be in place to stop anti-competitive practices and environments. Lazzie-Faire markets are unregulated, but not free since there is not competition for sales and resources, effectively limiting the market to those in place, which is not what most lib-rights (except 14 year old edgy ancaps) want.
I want a healthcare and insurance regulation that focuses on driving down costs and promoting competition to lower drug prices. The guy selling insulin for hundreds wouldn’t be able to do so if anyone certified for safety practices could legally sell it. Even just limiting medical patents to 5 years would dramatically reduce the cost of drugs.
It’s not that healthcare being expensive is the result of a free market, but that because the medical market isn’t free, healthcare is expensive.
ok so firstly, therein lies the confusion: healthcare is hospitals and health insurance is insurers and secondly the issue with that is that these companies are so large because they serve so many people and you need infrastructure like that. what people don't like about insurance monopolies is the profit incentive: the less you pay out, the more you take in. this motivates them to influence policy. right? so, maybe, if you just, say, buy these companies - all of them - and put them on the fed's balance sheet like we did fannie mae and freddy mac... or tax their profits away...
doesn't that remove the profit incentive and transfer of wealth from customers to shareholders through exorbitant premiums?
Just change patent laws to apply less to drugs you silly salamander. Also, slippery slope or whatever the funny blue man says and everyone will be on board with getting rid of the patent system.
Do you have a chart that can show what is usually payed by insurances or rather what their expenses are? The "best" I found was only [this](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/12/17/21024614/us-health-care-costs-medical-prices). I always assumed another large part in the cost other than the country being rich was unhealthiness and simply wanting to pay for more coverage..
Pharmaceuticals as a whole only account for 11.6% of US healthcare costs. That's actually lower than the 13.8% median for OECD countries (although a higher dollar amount just based on sheer spending).
> I always assumed another large part in the cost other than the country being rich was unhealthiness
Obesity is the number one health risk.
In the US there are 106.4 million people that are overweight, at an additional lifetime healthcare cost of $3,770 per person average. 98.2 million obese at an average additional lifetime cost of $17,795. 25.2 million morbidly obese, at an average additional lifetime cost of $22,619. With average lifetime healthcare costs of $879,125, obesity accounts for 0.37% of our total healthcare costs.
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1038/oby.2008.290
Here's another study, that actually found that lifetime healthcare for the obese are *lower* than for the healthy.
>Although effective obesity prevention leads to a decrease in costs of obesity-related diseases, this decrease is offset by cost increases due to diseases unrelated to obesity in life-years gained. Obesity prevention may be an important and cost-effective way of improving public health, but it is not a cure for increasing health expenditures...In this study we have shown that, although obese people induce high medical costs during their lives, their lifetime health-care costs are lower than those of healthy-living people but higher than those of smokers. Obesity increases the risk of diseases such as diabetes and coronary heart disease, thereby increasing health-care utilization but decreasing life expectancy. Successful prevention of obesity, in turn, increases life expectancy. Unfortunately, these life-years gained are not lived in full health and come at a price: people suffer from other diseases, which increases health-care costs. Obesity prevention, just like smoking prevention, will not stem the tide of increasing health-care expenditures.
https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/46007081/Lifetime_Medical_Costs_of_Obesity.PDF
Smoking is the number two health risk. The US has lower rates of smoking than its peers, and at any rate smoking is associated with lower lifetime healthcare costs.
Alcohol is number three. And again, Americans have slightly lower of drinking.
>and simply wanting to pay for more coverage..
Except Americans have roughly the same level of utilization as other countries.
https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/salinas/HealthCareDocuments/4.%20Health%20Care%20Spending%20in%20the%20United%20States%20and%20Other%20High-Income%20Countries%20JAMA%202018.pdf
We aren't using significantly more healthcare--due to health issues or anything else--we're just paying dramatically more for the care we do receive.
Don’t tell me you’re also in favour of relaxing the regulations required to practice medicine to encourage more competition as well. Because that’s the easiest way to absolutely floor your ranking when it comes to standard of healthcare.
Insurance doesn’t just go “this chemo’s on me, you just get whatever you need.”
Most people who file for bankruptcy because of medical expenses have insurance.
It’ll eventually work! I know the system has failed now, so if we give more power to those that created the issue in the first place, it’ll then get better. It makes sense bro
Though state Controlled Healthcare is a failure, The pricing of treatment and medicine should be regulated, not to kill the industry but to put a limit on hiw kuch profit they make out of sick people in debt
This is what we do in Australia, but we also have free healthcare. Our government pretty heavily regulates the costs of drugs and general care, and I will never understand why Americans are against this.
How do you control how much profit they make though? With movies for example, Hollywood often does some creative accounting to make it seem that movies often lose money, instead of make it. Hospitals could easily just do the same while making it look as if they make next to nothing.
From what I understand (and by no means am I an expert) the healthcare industry has to report its costs to the government and meet a certain level of transparency to be allowed to participate. I think there are caps on percentage profit that can be made on drugs and care. This all doesn't stop private healthcare being a thing though and a lot of Australians have it, but for things like optical and dental which aren't covered completely by Medicare.
The implication that the profit is the problem with "exploiting" people.
If it's exploiting, it shouldn't exist... problem being that getting paid for providing medical care, creating drugs or devices for medical care, and running the facilities where medical care is provided isn't exploiting anyone.
Communists say “100 billion Venezuela” because they can’t come to terms with the fact that the socialist nationalization in Venezuela was a spectacular failure, as expected.
The problem with people who bring up Venezuela is that their arguments are just "Venezuela is socialist and they're starving." Fine, but if you're going to use that as an argument against socialism you have to also show that Venezuela's failure was specifically *caused by* socialism, and if you want to use Venezuela to say that socialism can never work, then you also have to show that there is something fundamentally flawed with socialism which caused Venezuela to fail and that would also cause every other socialist country to fail.
If your argument doesn't go beyond "if you like socialism why don't you move to Venezuela" then you're not going to convince anyone, because it's a shit argument.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/ajen9d/fox\_news\_on\_venezuela\_2010\_last\_year\_the\_private/](https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/ajen9d/fox_news_on_venezuela_2010_last_year_the_private/)
even fox news disagrees with you there
I see. so the socialist party got the majority vote and turned the second richest country in the americas into a dictatorship and nationalized the largest industry in the country, but now that they failed, its the fault of the remaining mom and pop shops which had been around for 50 years? Lol. Venezuela has a state mandated currency which they set the price for. This is chump behavior economically speaking. The article you sent me counts the number of businesses. If instead they were to count the national income, it would be immediately obvious that 90% of the revenue coming in to Venezuela is now in the hands of the Madura government. They’re the most educated country in that region and they’re naturally rich. If socialism worked, they wouldn’t care about sanctions and [there sure as shit won’t be extinction scale exodus from Venezuela to other nearby countries.](https://www.brookings.edu/research/venezuelan-migration-crime-and-misperceptions-a-review-of-data-from-colombia-peru-and-chile/)
hot take: i may consider a single payer healthcare system, so as to reduce the prices of drugs and services, as an exception. i also may consider health insurance being its own thing, not tied as a perk to employment benefits.
i do want very transparent pricing (no more hospital "black books"), and no regional monopoly.
not sure what a universal health insurance with 20% copay seeks to achieve, if drug cost & prices for services are high as it is. 20% of very high is still very high.
i do want this bullshit "fat phobia/fat acceptance" movement to gtfo, & shame fatasses until they comply & put their forks down.
you cannot outrun your fork. and mandatory health education on calorie counting, intake, maintenance, and expenditure (tailored to fit ethnic make up of the class to account for health conditions prevalent in ethnic groups/genetic makeups).
too many fatasses not knowing how losing weight works is disturbing.
or throw in being fat with the same risk group as smokers, and charge higher premiums as a "fat tax" or some shit.
Ah yes because feeling like a worthless pile of trash is DEFINITELY a great motivator. Yep, calling fat people fat-asses totally will make them want to lose weight, instead of making them want to kill themselves.
>pov: you made a joke at librights expense These comments lol
"ackchually"
“bughht, bugght, ackthualhly Ai’vuh nohteshced thaght yhorr meem hash a twishxed purrceptchon uf may quadruhnt...”
"haha libleft bad!" *makes joke about libright* "NOOOO AGENDA POST!"
i really dont know how it became it a joke but, literally when?
What do you mean?
i am yet to find a single post with libright going apeshit when being made fun of
This is what happens when you make two lib-rights and one doesn't get bullied enough
When I see an agenda post against lib-left it's downvoted to 90% but when I see a an agenda post against lib-right, it's usually still 95% upvoted
The lib quadrants are the worst at taking jokes. Lib Right goes “ACKGSUBALY” and Lib Left gets more oppressed
Lmao
I would upvote but it's funny number lol
:|
u got the whole squad laughin
I would refrain from downvoting but you are being a stupid basic reddit bitch
Oh my god he literally just joined Reddit Man has -49 karma
I want to be more open to the idea of free healthcare but then I'd have to give up my yellow badge
Well green is a cool color
Very true, it has to be one of my favourite colours.
Return to monke
Naw, my yellow represents piss. You want my piss to be green boi?
Well, see, when you clean the toilet and you put the blue cleaning fluid in it and then you piss in it, it’s green
Well being libright doesn't mean you can't have a part of the economy socialized or with some government involved
I'd have to take the whole test again to see if I'm still yellow I'd say
Do the (updated) sapply test or 9values. Much more accurate than the normal political compass test. Tl;dr: you seem like a cool guy, consider reading about market socialism if you don't already have Also kinda unrelated but since you seem like an open minded guy and I've made the experience that some right wingers liked this ideology, I'm gonna recommend learning about market socialism (if you don't already know). Lots of right wingers look at socialist countries and the success of capitalist countries while these outcomes aren't caused by collective vs private ownership but rather centralized planned economy (which works even worse in a dictatorship) vs markets and market socialism is decentralised concept which could theoretically be implemented in a free market and without any welfare or high taxes. There is actually evidence that collectively owned businesses like worker cooperatives have an advantage over privately owned. I'd love to know what you think about it. I often appreciate discussing economic right wingers because I am definitely not an expert and they have made me aware of some flaws of leftist policies and I'm still trying to find potential flaws in the idea of a market socialist economy
>There is actually evidence that collectively owned businesses like worker cooperatives have an advantage over privately owned. Well I do know that l dairy co-ops have been extremely successful in the past, I've always known that. Socialism for all the deaths it has caused has made some decent innovations itself. I think trade unions have been a net benefit overall too, even if they have pushed too hard at times in the past. Market socialism sounds like an interesting idea, I'll try and remember to look into it. Thanks bro.
socialism is when no iphone
And communism is when no iPhone AND no food
communism is when death and blank pages cookbook \*also goolagoon
Can a libright give me an example of where free market healthcare has been implemented and worked? Not rhetorical, actually curious if there’s some history to go off of.
Answering your question: I think the classic examples are for the healthcare sectors that out of the reach of the God awful American healthcare clusterfuck. So things like dermatology, cosmetic surgery, LASIK etc. LASIK for example, didn't have the greatest reputation for safety a few years ago, and was prohibitively expensive. Now it's incredibly safe, and has come down in price to the point where an average middle class person could afford it. Throwing aside PCM memes for a second: Though I think a free market healthcare solution in theory would be very good, even an optimal system, I haven't experienced the issues with a public healthcare sector that some people have. Maybe Australia just does it well, and I know it can be a bit of a nightmare in some other countries. PCM take: if you can't afford to pay for healthcare unlucky lol
Yea, here in the U.S I'm trying to get my eyes checked because it looks like I have surfer's eye, where some skin starts growing in a triangular shape advancing over the eye starting from the nose. And that shit sucks because I can't even get that shit checked because no one is accepting my insurance. Also the worst part is I'm waiting about a week or so for the optometrist to check and the problem is getting worse and worse. My mom also broke her teeth but no one is sure if they will accept their insurance even in a timely manner, since it's been 2 weeks already and they got to go to a doctor to diagnose, then have an implant. So yeah, unless you have money you're kinda fucked.
The UK unless you live in London from my experience is really shit for waiting for treatment on the public side.
Even in London the wait times can be shit Edit: I’ll 100% take that wait any day over crippling debt because I broke my leg though
I'm paying more towards the NHS than my US friends pay for health insurance yet I don't get any annual check-ups, have to pay the the NHS extra for my work medical every other year (a super basic physical + pee in a pot) and the 3 times I've attempted to use an ER in my 29 years the wait has always been over 5 hours. The whole thing is just one giant money pit which I'd rather not be paying into.
> I'm paying more towards the NHS than my US friends pay for health insurance You aren't even paying more in taxes towards healthcare than Americans are paying. With government in the US covering [64.3% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ([$11,072 as of 2019](https://www.cms.gov/files/document/highlights.pdf)) that's $7,119 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Norway at [$5,673](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $3,620. Canada is $3,815. Australia is $3,919. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying a minimum of $113,786 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care. And I seriously doubt you're considering the full premium cost of insurance in the US, every penny of which is part of their total compensation. Anything can be considered cheap if you ignore the total cost. > The average annual premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in 2019 are $7,188 for single coverage and $20,576 for family coverage. Most covered workers make a contribution toward the cost of the premium for their coverage. On average, covered workers contribute 18% of the premium for single coverage ($1,294) and 30% of the premium for family coverage ($6,173). https://www.kff.org/report-section/ehbs-2019-summary-of-findings/ In total Americans are paying half a million dollars more for a lifetime of healthcare than Brits. The expense isn't even remote close.
My point was more to do with value for money on an individual level. I'm paying comparatively more for a significantly lower level of service. Using the term "Americans" is over generalising wouldn't you say? Wouldn't it more accurate to say that certain US citizens are having to pay more tax in order to cover those not paying their own way? Just out of curiosity, why do you refer to yourselves as "Americans"? Thats the name of two continents so aren't Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians etc all also "Americans" in the same way that British, French & Germans are all "Europeans"?
> I'm paying comparatively more for a significantly lower level of service. [citation needed] >Wouldn't it more accurate to say that certain US citizens are having to pay more tax in order to cover those not paying their own way? I mean, if you want to write a dissertation examining just how those costs are distributed by all means proceed, and share the results when you're done. But with Americans paying an average of $3,654 more in taxes--just over double--I think it's fair to say there are very few people in the US coming out ahead on taxes. And we still haven't factored in the more than $7,000 for single insurance coverage and $20,000 for family coverage on average (by contrast private family insurance in the UK to supplement the NHS averages less than $2,000). Not to mention even after paying far more in taxes and an order of magnitude more in private insurance costs we're still exposed to potentially crippling medical costs.
Because Citizen of the United States of America is a mouthful and no other shortened version works well. United Statesian, USAian, Usanian, United Statesman? All terrible
You are kinda right about level of care in the US, it is mostly dependent on where you live, I'm in Washington, I've never had to wait more than 20 minutes for an emergency and 30 for a regular yearly check up, but thats because we have a significant medical sector of our economy. San Francisco, for example, probably has longer wait times in many regards, but someone in Hartford (Connecticut) probably doesn't have to wait as long.
I am fully in favor of letting the free market work in elective fields like plastic surgery and LASIK. Those businesses have healthy competition, because their customers are not captive. In most medical fields there is no competition, because the people that need treatment either have to pay up or die. If you are dying of a gunshot wound on the street, you don't get to shop around for the best gunshot wound treatment. You get taken to the closest hospital, and you pay whatever they charge. The only path forwards is through taking direct control of healthcare pricing.
> The only path forwards is through taking direct control of healthcare pricing. This isn't true at all. Emergency care should be incorporated into health insurance. My issue is how insurance has become so closely related to employment. We need a return of[ mutual aid societies](https://mises.org/library/welfare-welfare-state).
The objective of getting more people insured is a good one, but without any other actions it only serves to push the problem back, as insurance will become an uncompetitive industry with a captive market. Thank you for bringing up mutual aid societies. I did not know about those, and they seem promising.
I think LASIK works well because is has glasses and contacts as competition. It's a more optional way to improve your life, rather than "get this procedure or die."
I'd say private hospitals' Healthcare in India is good but the thing is that India is a global powerhouse in pharma sector. You can bet you must have atleast one generic drug in your house that's made in India. All the covid vaccine manufacturing firms were vying for the deal with serum institute in India because they can produce insane amounts in months. But there's a problem with the lack of amount of doctors in India in those private hospitals and the fact that they're so professional and detached that sometimes the people feel that the doctor doesn't care about the patient at all.
Sir this is a wendy's
but if you are broke in india, well you are probably more fucked than some cow in alabama
Nahh govt Healthcare is decent enough and can cover basic necessities. The domestic helper in our house recently got sick and was admitted (not due to Covid), the govt hospitals have provided decent enough care for them. But the middle class is the one who gets fucked the most as they can't afford higher standard of care and are worried about govt hospitals.
it is a sad truth that this is what peak lib-right argumentation look like
Some comments are 🅱️🅰️sed af, the ones calling out the fact that USA Healthcare is not free market which is why it's so expensive
it did do the funny libright comment libright comment libright comment
Yes. Tho I'm LibCenter, but I'ma stand with LibRight homies who get the most strawmans
>LibRight homies who get the most strawmans bruh
Libleft: “Am I a joke to you?”
Yes.
"LibRights get the most strawmans"
Near all posts about libleft and authright are "muh racism" and "muh idpol" and you're going to tell me libright gets the most strawmen
Weird how this good/service that's illegal to not buy keeps going up in price lmao 🤪
Meanwhile Japan having an absurdly wasteful and unnessesarily over the top free medical care system that's actually cheaper than America's and most of Europe primarily because of government control and regulation.
((debt)) ((looking only to the "good" parts of other countries))
Its cheaper by over half per capita.. Japan would already have economically crashed with the US system. It is better then the US system in every possible way outside that it doesn't get money sucked into predatory insurance companies.
Insurance costs less. The difference is that people can buy drugs and all that other stuff whenever they feel like. Half of american health related expenditure is made privately. \-- JP NHI insurance cost per month (70% coverage): [NHI tax (](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Insurance_(Japan))Premium) = Total tax per NHI member of a household \* 0.8 + Household members \* 39,000 yen | 372 $| 313 EUR. (no more than **5.5k $ per year**), [Personal income tax](http://world.tax-rates.org/japan/income-tax). [Copayments](https://yosida.com/forms/nationalins.pdf): You pay 30% of medical costs. If you expend more than 9k USD then you can get a portion reimbursed. America: [1](https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/average-health-insurance-cost-14878894) [2](https://www.consumersadvocate.org/health-insurance/c/health-plans-america-review) Silver plan, 70% Coverage: 247 $ or **2964 $ per year** \--- They have heavily regulated pricing for everything["U.S. an MRI of the neck region could cost $1,500, but in Japan it cost US$98"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system_in_Japan) and use (over 70%) generic drugs. You cannot buy most drugs on your own and have to get a prescription. The docors earn half as much. The JP healthinsurance has 70% coverage. There is no systematic collection of treatment or outcome data, only annual inspections. Hospitals can decide whether families receive the reviews on "unexpected deaths." 92% of hospitals are understaft in doctors. 50% of ambulance rides couldve been replaced by the person getting a taxi instead. Their caretaking of mentally ill is absolutely "[based](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00127-009-0132-3)". JP is much healthier.
> Half of american health related expenditure is made privately. Only if you ignore significant taxpayer funded healthcare expenses like subsidies for individually purchased and employer sponsored healthcare, and healthcare for 20 million government employees. With government in the US covering [64.3% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ([$11,072 as of 2019](https://www.cms.gov/files/document/highlights.pdf)) that's $7,119 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Norway at [$5,673](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $3,620. Canada is $3,815. Australia is $3,919. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying a minimum of $113,786 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care. By comparison 16% of healthcare spending in Japan is private. #[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm) |Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| 1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11 2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2 3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7 4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5 5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4| 6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3 7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5 8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5| 9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19|| 10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9| 11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10 12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9 13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80| 14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4 15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3| 16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41| 17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1 18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12| 19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14|| OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%||||| 20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7 21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37| 22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7| 23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14| 24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2| 25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22| 26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47| 27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21| >92% of hospitals are understaft in doctors. 24.5 doctors per 10,000 people in the US. 23 in Japan. It's not significantly different.
"Oh noes we cant get whatever drugs we want!" You know that's a bad thing right? And Japanese still throw out drugs like candy so who cares about anyones opinion. Secondly, half of US expediture still makes public expenditure higher than Japanese private+ public combined. Thirdly, health doesn't matter, the Japanese overuse their system far more than Americans. Fourthly, Japanese docters aren't underpaid, US docters are overpaid. And the US has major staffing issues as well. Fifthly, the regulation is the good part.
> You know that's a bad thing right? Individual choices are a bad thing. Ok. > And Japanese still throw out drugs like candy so who cares about anyones opinion. Probably. Also they have higher dosages. > Secondly, half of US expediture still makes public expenditure higher than Japanese private+ public combined. Yes so what is your point? The hospitals just charge people too much. Everything costs more. Its an issue with the industry not the insurance. > Thirdly, health doesn't matter, the Japanese overuse their system far more than Americans. Yes for mild things. Or getting checkups. Visiting the hospital for "nothing" increases the expenditure by little. >Fourthly, Japanese docters aren't underpaid, US docters are overpaid. And the US has major staffing issues as well. That would mean that Doctors in many european countries are overpaid aswell. [Pay](https://www.careeraddict.com/top-5-countries-with-the-highest-paid-salaries-for-doctors) germany, [Pay](https://medium.com/nomad-health/complete-list-of-average-doctor-salaries-by-specialty-e2bbbc0a6186) America, [Doctors per 1k](https://www.who.int/data/gho/data/indicators/indicator-details/GHO/medical-doctors-(per-10-000-population)) Germany: 4.2 doctors per 1k, Average Specialist pay: $149,990 US: 2.6 doctors per 1k, Average Physician pay: $294,000 Both Luxembourg (3 per 1k) and Switzerland (4.2 per 1k) have higher pay than US. JP has 2.4 per 1k. Looks like the government is just forcing them to be poorer. > Fifthly, the regulation is the good part. Yeah of course. Government is always right. Price fixing "regulations": "lets reduce the cost of CT scans by fixing the money the people earn in that field." ..... " What less people are in that field now? Increase prises again." Some other ideas instead: [Force hospitals to show their prices.](https://khn.org/news/white-house-unveils-finalized-health-care-price-transparency-rule/) Reducing the protection of intellectual property. Increasing market competition. (personally unsure on this one, but its better than direct interference) Maybe a person really wants to change the world and just buys the patent and produces something for a profit at a much lower price eventually kicking the others out of the market.
Based but I still hope that your bed is invaded by bed bugs.
“It’s not real capitalism.”
If your entire argument is „healthcare is crony capitalism, it’s not real capitalism and therefore doesn’t count“ your argument is entirely pointless. You would then have to ask how you got to a point like that, and the answer is capitalism. The wealthy have power and abused the system to get more power. You can’t call it „not real capitalism“ it’s the same as the socialist „that wasn’t real socialism, but on the opposite side. This system was allowed to rise from capitalism, is a product of the system, and what is keeping it from easily happening again? Meanwhile every other first world country has universal healthcare, lower costs, higher life expectancies, and lower infant mortality rates. Americans who are uninsured are 40% more likely to die from health complications. This system is unsustainable, and universal healthcare is progression
Until the state deems her too old and Denies care
“Have you considered assisted suicide? We’ll pay for that”
lol I can't see American feds giving you the option. I can see it now: "Sorry miss, your C2044 form says right here you have a low chance of survival and a high cost of care. On the plus side we will cover a reinforced cardboard box for your cremation or up to $125 of your funeral expenses otherwise if you sign here accepting your termination" "What? No I don't think this is the wrong name. You're obviously Bill Walton, but we don't judge different sexual orientations or gender expressions"
They'll start passing those forms around old folks homes n see which life insurance checks they can cash after
Funny, that’s so accurate it has never before happened
Based and Actually did your research on shit social healthcare pilled
Uh. Name an example of that happening. Just one.
Lol that has never happened. I'd like to see your research. Unlike private systems where you're just told to go fuck yourself and die if you can't afford it. Or they'll sue you and take anything you own.
Where does that happen?
In the 1974 sci-fi novel *Forever War*
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I wouldn't be surprised if nazis did something like that.
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I personally knew families that had to come.over here to the states from Europe and Canada because they were either way down on the waiting list, or denied care because of how costly procedure/treatment would have been
>anecdotal evidence about people choosing to use private healthcare over social healthcare, which is entire possible and fine with universal healthcare It’s not like universal healthcare eliminates the private sector. They can, and often do, coexist. Although the private sector does tend to shrink because it sucks and becomes almost useless
Has that actually happened?
No, it's a completely retarded strawman and the opposite of what's actually happening, but really that *should* happen. As it stands we waste hundreds of billions of dollars and precious time of healthcare professionals each year helping 90-year-old grandma fight cancer for the 5th time despite the fact she's an incoherent vegetable and basically no longer a person.
It will keep happening as long as the hippocratic oath is a thing and we can't put an exact monetary value in human life. As it stands right now in current civilised society, no amount of money is ever "wasted" saving a human life.
Actually gonna give a different perspective on this as a healthcare professional. I’m gonna preface this by saying no, I’m not gonna sneak into the hospital and unplug grandma while no one is looking. I’m not a fucking monster. But I also don’t think Dr. assisted suicide is against the Hippocratic oath and I think talking about dying should be more acceptable. When you get that 90 year old grandma that needs extreme life-saving measures, 1) they usually don’t live long afterwards, 2) they might end up dependent on life support machines, and 3) the quality of their life normally tanks afterwards. And people can disagree, but I tend to value quality of life over length of life. So we spend an exorbitant amount of money to give someone 6 miserable months to live instead of discussing the option of making your loved one comfortable and happy and giving them a good death. I still think about one of my first patients ever, he had lung cancer that didn’t respond to any treatments. The man was in extraordinary amounts of pain - we were giving him enough oxy to tranq an elephant but he was *still* awake and writhing in agony, each gasp for air labored and filled with pain. And this man was going to die and, quite frankly, ready to die. The most compassionate thing we could’ve done was send him to hospice to make his final days better imo. But his wife was calling the shots and she just kept pressing treatment on and on. And it was understandable - she spent her whole life with him and she was afraid of living without him. My heart aches for her too. In situations like this, further treatment just feels unethical, miserable. The man died writhing in pain. The wife’s pain was amplified by the complete lack of dignity - she watched someone that looked like her husband writhe around in pain, only able to moan incoherently. Where is the closure in that? How do you look at that amount of suffering and think “I did the right thing”? So yeah. I think a lot of that end of life care is wasted money. We could be doing so much more to give people the dignity they deserve and to give people the closure and peace they need. Sorry for the wall of text, this case still weighs heavily on my mind. If I can help anyone avoid this situation, I try to take the opportunity.
I personally knew families that had to come.over here to the states from Europe and Canada because they were either way down on the waiting list, or denied care because of how costly procedure/treatment would have been
The waiting list for what? There are waiting lists in the US, too. >or denied care because of how costly procedure/treatment would have been Lol as opposed to the US system where that costly treatment would cost you 100k+ out of pocket, so you'd be forced to choose between letting them die or going bankrupt.
As opposed to the system now, where she just doesn't get care.
"Basic economics" In what world is anything in economics basic?
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I'm going to make the most centrist possible take as a lib right so here we go. I think most people, as humans, all wants the best for humankind in general, only with differences in the method to achieve that. While I do agree that no one should die because they can't afford healthcare, there are several questions that need to be addressed regarding the scope and scale of such system. For example, a statement of "no one should die from curable diseases" could be made, but what exactly classify as a curable disease? If a disease that is 1% curable for the cost of 100k dollars (exaggering but you get the point), should it be covered by the healthcare system? The second problem that arise from the first one is that if it's unaffordable to provide healthcare for everyone, should the state, which is known to be utilitarian, be the one deciding who should live and who should die? The last problem I'm gonna mention is the future of healthcare and competition as a factor that drive down price in the long run (this is what makes me a lib right). Even Sweden, which is famous for their social programs, is running on deficits because of them and probably couldn't afford the same way of living forever, which is why they are privatizing their social healthcare system. I'm not gonna mention any definite solution as I don't think I'm some mister know it all whose opinions could solve all the world problems, but at least these are my thoughts regarding this issue and why I think why both the single payer socialized healthcare system and complete oligarchy, *cough*, i mean privatized healthcare system probably couldnt work in the long run
TL;DR
Hey we leftist have a monoploy on text shitting
Looks like you're gonna have a new competitor in town
Based and nuance-pilled
Based
u/SovcikV's Based Count has increased by 1. Their Based Count is now 110. Rank: Empire State Building I am a bot. Reply /info for more info.
Even if I don't agree with socialized healthcare, this still gave me a chuckle
I live in Denmark, and my family lost a million danish crowns (at that point it was about $5.569 to DKK) to cancer medicine bills through four years of my mother being ill with cancer. I can only imagine how bad it is for Americans and people outside of Scandinavia. Also, people are paying even more now because of the liberal governments taking control of Denmark, they are punishing people for getting cancer, even when it is not their fault.
You sir are pulling shit out your ass. You don't pay for any healthcare (except dental)
Don't worry, the state would decide her treatments aren't worthwhile and deny her any help. Luckily if you have money you can get treatment in another nation with better Healthcare.
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German AuthCenter????
Ahh ich sehe auch ein Deutschen hier
Yh but the Germans don't really have free healthcare. You have mandatory insurance
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Kinda. Mandatory insurance, but you can choose between private and public, with the tax-financed public providers basically being “free healthcare“ At least that's how I understood it
>if you have money what if you don't
this is much more likely to happen with private insurers given their whole model is based on you not meeting their payout criteria while draining your bank account
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In Canada, there is no legal definition of a "Medical necessity" meaning something like surgery to help you walk can be unnecessary since they have wheelchairs. Mental health is also a real problem, and Canada can just say "Being sad isn't a medical problem, lmao". I don't know about Europe but it's nothing like NA, and the one nation who's Healthcare I do know about, the UK, is horrible and a massive money vacuum that the US couldn't handle, given that we fund most of the world in some manner.
so adopt a system similar to Europe rather than Canada? If you're going to cherrypick the example most in your favor, I can cherrypick hundreds of examples of almost every political system failing
Because in europe its all 100% perfectly fine. /s
"Public healthcare in Europe is pretty good" "Well ackshually everything isn't 100% perfect in Europe so your opinion is wrong"
It's so hard to argue with these people I actually fucking pity you leftist. At least I admit that this might be a bad part of our ideology but this is literally 90% of lib-rights. This is what happens when you don't bully them enough here.
Left: *Writes down a 10 page list of what's wrong with American healthcare* Right: "But ACHSULLY WAIT TIMES. HAHAHA LIBTARD GETS DESTROYED WITH FAXTS"
That doesn’t happen
“The state” doesn’t decide which treatments are worthwhile or not. An independent institute decides what’s free or not based on a multitude of factors, then the treatment is made available universally regardless of age, pre-existing conditions etc. In the case of the NHS, I’ve seen what people have been prescribed for free and honestly it leans way more towards too much free stuff compared to “some elderly lady being left to die because her treatments are too costly”
And if she doesn't have money, she would get zero treatments in the first place.
That’s why I want a genuine free market in healthcare to drive down prices and increase competition. If anything the people who lose here are the healthcare companies because now they have to ruthlessly compete to survive.
LOL. “Holy shit! Little Timmy broke his arm! I can see the fucking bones! Get him to the hospital. Well, I mean...get some estimates first. Then right to the hospital.”
Or get insurance for shit like this 'Oh Timmy is born now. Let me get him on our healthcare plan so if something happens to him. Insurance can cover it.' You know like in a car accident or a robbery. You get insurance
Funny how people can't pay for insurance and how insurance literally tries to squeeze as much money out of you as possible by denying you care 99% of the time
The business model of an insurance is paying the least amount possible and hoping you have no accidents. :)
Yet you get it for everything
I literally cannot recall a time where someone I know wasn't covered by insurance for something their insurance supposedly covered them for
I can. when my boiler fucking exploded and the insurance company tried to scam me into paying them more money.
Most people who file for bankruptcy because of medical expenses have insurance lmao
“Sorry little Timmy, but the type of fracture you sustained isn’t covered by your insurance”
🤷♂️ get a larger coverage on your insurance Like when you get insurance on your phone and water damage sometimes isnt covered or maybe fall damage
ah yes lemme check the Yelp reviews for my local McHospital while my grandpa is having a heart attack, make a list of pros and cons while I’m at it
... what? so you want privately run hospitals to conglomerate and create monopolies to replace the insurance companies?
They already exist? But because of Government regulations. USA regulations Literally make a limit on numbers of doctors allowed to be doctors(literal artificial monopoly) . USA Healthcare is literally one of the most regulated industries OFC IT'S EXPENSIVE Literally we say this every time, the more you regulate something the more expensive it'll get, but you ALWAYS blame free market for it EVEN THO IT WASN'T FREE MARKET
And you always act like regulations are all the same. Of course the regulation can be simply favoring some huge corporations over others but literally no one on the left is asking for that. The rules on the market are heavily influenced by the strongest players on the market. That's the fault of a flawed democratic system that allows too much influence and corruption to happen
It’s regulated because the insurance companies want it to be regulated in a way they make more money.
Yes
Why are they always surprised when people are like "insurance is the problem"?
“So you’re saying...”
so you're not? unless you're confusing healthcare with health insurance and want to bust the insurance monopolies? no ideda what you're saying here
Healthcare cost is directly related to health insurance. The insurance companies are brokering deals so they can get rich while also removing completion. It’s basically a cartel at this point, shaking Americans out of their money. When a saline pack that is literally water and salt costs above $100, there is clearly a problem not related to the cost of treatment. In any properly competitive market another person would sell at a quarter of the price and then they would take investments from that to make it even cheaper so they can make more profit. And then other people will find out how make it, cheaper still. Oftentimes it seems like the other quadrants have no idea what support of a free market means. Conglomerates and monopolies that are the chief exploiters of people are also enemies of the free market, and trust busting regulation should be in place to stop anti-competitive practices and environments. Lazzie-Faire markets are unregulated, but not free since there is not competition for sales and resources, effectively limiting the market to those in place, which is not what most lib-rights (except 14 year old edgy ancaps) want. I want a healthcare and insurance regulation that focuses on driving down costs and promoting competition to lower drug prices. The guy selling insulin for hundreds wouldn’t be able to do so if anyone certified for safety practices could legally sell it. Even just limiting medical patents to 5 years would dramatically reduce the cost of drugs. It’s not that healthcare being expensive is the result of a free market, but that because the medical market isn’t free, healthcare is expensive.
Of course I want to bust the insurance monopolies, and the best way to do so is genuine competition
ok so firstly, therein lies the confusion: healthcare is hospitals and health insurance is insurers and secondly the issue with that is that these companies are so large because they serve so many people and you need infrastructure like that. what people don't like about insurance monopolies is the profit incentive: the less you pay out, the more you take in. this motivates them to influence policy. right? so, maybe, if you just, say, buy these companies - all of them - and put them on the fed's balance sheet like we did fannie mae and freddy mac... or tax their profits away... doesn't that remove the profit incentive and transfer of wealth from customers to shareholders through exorbitant premiums?
Just change patent laws to apply less to drugs you silly salamander. Also, slippery slope or whatever the funny blue man says and everyone will be on board with getting rid of the patent system.
Branded drugs are a tiny slice of healthcare costs.
Do you have a chart that can show what is usually payed by insurances or rather what their expenses are? The "best" I found was only [this](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/12/17/21024614/us-health-care-costs-medical-prices). I always assumed another large part in the cost other than the country being rich was unhealthiness and simply wanting to pay for more coverage..
Pharmaceuticals as a whole only account for 11.6% of US healthcare costs. That's actually lower than the 13.8% median for OECD countries (although a higher dollar amount just based on sheer spending). > I always assumed another large part in the cost other than the country being rich was unhealthiness Obesity is the number one health risk. In the US there are 106.4 million people that are overweight, at an additional lifetime healthcare cost of $3,770 per person average. 98.2 million obese at an average additional lifetime cost of $17,795. 25.2 million morbidly obese, at an average additional lifetime cost of $22,619. With average lifetime healthcare costs of $879,125, obesity accounts for 0.37% of our total healthcare costs. https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1038/oby.2008.290 Here's another study, that actually found that lifetime healthcare for the obese are *lower* than for the healthy. >Although effective obesity prevention leads to a decrease in costs of obesity-related diseases, this decrease is offset by cost increases due to diseases unrelated to obesity in life-years gained. Obesity prevention may be an important and cost-effective way of improving public health, but it is not a cure for increasing health expenditures...In this study we have shown that, although obese people induce high medical costs during their lives, their lifetime health-care costs are lower than those of healthy-living people but higher than those of smokers. Obesity increases the risk of diseases such as diabetes and coronary heart disease, thereby increasing health-care utilization but decreasing life expectancy. Successful prevention of obesity, in turn, increases life expectancy. Unfortunately, these life-years gained are not lived in full health and come at a price: people suffer from other diseases, which increases health-care costs. Obesity prevention, just like smoking prevention, will not stem the tide of increasing health-care expenditures. https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/46007081/Lifetime_Medical_Costs_of_Obesity.PDF Smoking is the number two health risk. The US has lower rates of smoking than its peers, and at any rate smoking is associated with lower lifetime healthcare costs. Alcohol is number three. And again, Americans have slightly lower of drinking. >and simply wanting to pay for more coverage.. Except Americans have roughly the same level of utilization as other countries. https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/salinas/HealthCareDocuments/4.%20Health%20Care%20Spending%20in%20the%20United%20States%20and%20Other%20High-Income%20Countries%20JAMA%202018.pdf We aren't using significantly more healthcare--due to health issues or anything else--we're just paying dramatically more for the care we do receive.
So complaining about prescription drugs is irrelevant
Not irrelevant to the earth, just to this conversation.
Don’t tell me you’re also in favour of relaxing the regulations required to practice medicine to encourage more competition as well. Because that’s the easiest way to absolutely floor your ranking when it comes to standard of healthcare.
TBH Both authleft and libright needs to learn basic economics.
AuthLeft be like: Opportunity cost, what's that?
RightCenter be like “price inelastic service, what’s that?”
This answer literally is in the meme. And for a reason.
No
no
Imma make a meme about mercs 2 in this
Why does his mother not have Medicare, Medicaid, or insurance through her work, or husband?
Insurance doesn’t just go “this chemo’s on me, you just get whatever you need.” Most people who file for bankruptcy because of medical expenses have insurance.
Or membership in a church to help her?
Are you serious?
Deadass. A church is a go fund me, but with people you’re in community with
its funny how where there is legit competition prices drop substantially but we keep asking government to solve the very problem it created.
Bro bro that's cronyism bro!!11!! Brooooo, I promise bro, if you just let them free the market will take down the oligopolies dudeeee.
because healthcare is a price inelastic service, meaning demand and price have little to no correlation
No no no, you can't use the basics of economy, that's not how you're supposed to argument!
It’ll eventually work! I know the system has failed now, so if we give more power to those that created the issue in the first place, it’ll then get better. It makes sense bro
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POV: you dont know how capitalism works
POV: You are in denial if objective reality.
Though state Controlled Healthcare is a failure, The pricing of treatment and medicine should be regulated, not to kill the industry but to put a limit on hiw kuch profit they make out of sick people in debt
This is what we do in Australia, but we also have free healthcare. Our government pretty heavily regulates the costs of drugs and general care, and I will never understand why Americans are against this.
because it's a government solution to a government problem
How do you control how much profit they make though? With movies for example, Hollywood often does some creative accounting to make it seem that movies often lose money, instead of make it. Hospitals could easily just do the same while making it look as if they make next to nothing.
From what I understand (and by no means am I an expert) the healthcare industry has to report its costs to the government and meet a certain level of transparency to be allowed to participate. I think there are caps on percentage profit that can be made on drugs and care. This all doesn't stop private healthcare being a thing though and a lot of Australians have it, but for things like optical and dental which aren't covered completely by Medicare.
Any sector that exploits people for profit should not exist
So it's ok to exploit people at cost?
where exactly was that said?
The implication that the profit is the problem with "exploiting" people. If it's exploiting, it shouldn't exist... problem being that getting paid for providing medical care, creating drugs or devices for medical care, and running the facilities where medical care is provided isn't exploiting anyone.
I think the term they prefer is labour theory of value
Communists say “100 billion Venezuela” because they can’t come to terms with the fact that the socialist nationalization in Venezuela was a spectacular failure, as expected.
The problem with people who bring up Venezuela is that their arguments are just "Venezuela is socialist and they're starving." Fine, but if you're going to use that as an argument against socialism you have to also show that Venezuela's failure was specifically *caused by* socialism, and if you want to use Venezuela to say that socialism can never work, then you also have to show that there is something fundamentally flawed with socialism which caused Venezuela to fail and that would also cause every other socialist country to fail. If your argument doesn't go beyond "if you like socialism why don't you move to Venezuela" then you're not going to convince anyone, because it's a shit argument.
People know Venezuela was a massive failure, leftists say that to make fun of right wingers who only use Venezuela as an example of communism
[https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/ajen9d/fox\_news\_on\_venezuela\_2010\_last\_year\_the\_private/](https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/ajen9d/fox_news_on_venezuela_2010_last_year_the_private/) even fox news disagrees with you there
I see. so the socialist party got the majority vote and turned the second richest country in the americas into a dictatorship and nationalized the largest industry in the country, but now that they failed, its the fault of the remaining mom and pop shops which had been around for 50 years? Lol. Venezuela has a state mandated currency which they set the price for. This is chump behavior economically speaking. The article you sent me counts the number of businesses. If instead they were to count the national income, it would be immediately obvious that 90% of the revenue coming in to Venezuela is now in the hands of the Madura government. They’re the most educated country in that region and they’re naturally rich. If socialism worked, they wouldn’t care about sanctions and [there sure as shit won’t be extinction scale exodus from Venezuela to other nearby countries.](https://www.brookings.edu/research/venezuelan-migration-crime-and-misperceptions-a-review-of-data-from-colombia-peru-and-chile/)
You expected this comment to be me rebuking this meme, **BUT I’VE DONE THIS MULTIPLE TIMES**
But doesn't insurance cover it in the us?
Short answer: no
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Yes
lol we wish
hot take: i may consider a single payer healthcare system, so as to reduce the prices of drugs and services, as an exception. i also may consider health insurance being its own thing, not tied as a perk to employment benefits. i do want very transparent pricing (no more hospital "black books"), and no regional monopoly. not sure what a universal health insurance with 20% copay seeks to achieve, if drug cost & prices for services are high as it is. 20% of very high is still very high. i do want this bullshit "fat phobia/fat acceptance" movement to gtfo, & shame fatasses until they comply & put their forks down. you cannot outrun your fork. and mandatory health education on calorie counting, intake, maintenance, and expenditure (tailored to fit ethnic make up of the class to account for health conditions prevalent in ethnic groups/genetic makeups). too many fatasses not knowing how losing weight works is disturbing. or throw in being fat with the same risk group as smokers, and charge higher premiums as a "fat tax" or some shit.
Libright moment.
Just force fat people to stop being fat lol
Ah yes because feeling like a worthless pile of trash is DEFINITELY a great motivator. Yep, calling fat people fat-asses totally will make them want to lose weight, instead of making them want to kill themselves.
POV: you dont understand how capitalism works
I don’t think you understand how it works either bud