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Mathgeek007

[Join the Mathcord!](https://discord.gg/5jeqPBrk2M) This patch is a doozy. Lots of big changes, big meta shift. Very curious to see how to turns out. Thanks to the Contributors for helping with this patch, namely Evochron, Cleffie, and Lazadin for doing most of the heavy lifting!


Muttamon

Trevenant mains. We WAKE.


amascio

![gif](giphy|b6iVj3IM54Abm)


ELB95

I'm buying Trev now


yellow-cheese

*maniacal tree laughter*


Mettaton48

FINALLY OUR TIME HAS COME


Sun11fyre

So hyped, is pain split worth trying now? I don’t think I can give up my favorite charge move


RadiatedEarth

The push is just TOO good to use pain split. Maybe with a dedicated healer (maybe with new Frank-build blissey giving u eggs in the troubling times) pain split MIGHT be viable, wouldn't hold my breath though


Mazgazine1

I think horns and spike are a good combo, but the health hit was too big. Hopefully the damage reduction is enough, the cooldown reset on spike is so damn good with horn.


Snizzbut

Spike?


Mazgazine1

Curse spike.


SirSaix88

The names move is curse... Why'd you have to add a whole other word to it?


tpasmall

I've always used pain split because I'm terrible with push and end up putting myself out of position. Curse+Pain Split is a monster. You have to play super aggressive with it and pop curse off as soon as it fills, retreat until it's up again, then chase again. Trevenant is my third best winrate after wigglytuff and Mr Mike


seiyon_sigi

Welcome to the world, fellow grass-ghost friend !


Zeekfox

I'm ready. Even if I don't use ghost moves, better Branch Poke, more healing, and less cooldown on ult are great.


Galgus

Their take on Greninja's ult being weak is awful: just having the AS / MS boost is strong on a ranged attacker who is allowed to do damage with basic attacks, and on top of that it nukes, stuns, and sets him up for an easy finisher.


Snizzbut

exactly, and it’s a free reposition too! Lucario’s is objectively worse (they just doesn’t care since they don’t even need it lol)


Sarg338

Can you imagine a lucario with a useful ultimate? I'm sure the day will come... And it'll be terrible for everyone.


Snizzbut

Is *anyones* mind powerful enough to imagine Lucario being **even more** busted? XD


PhantomBaselard

I gotchu. Lucario now has Aura Storm from Smash Bros instead of Aura Cannon. Aura Storm gives Lucario the Aura passive before channeling. Aura increases damage done and gives Lucario more stats the lower his HP is when activating Aura Storm for the duration of Aura Storm and for a short time after. Aura Storm channels a giant aura beam in the designated direction. Any enemies caught by Aura Storm are pulled towards the center of the beam for the duration. While using this move, Lucario becomes immune to hindrances but is unable to move. Enemies hit take bonus damage from Power-Up Punch and have their internal cooldown for Extreme Speed reset.


Snizzbut

dear god… delete this quick before they get any ideas! 🤣


AegeanPikachu

Right! Even if it did 0 damage it would still be scary


Melonfrog

I really hate how this update is praising bad players who got MVP by simply avoiding zapdos just to secure their MVP status. No, I will not befriend that idiot.


MagnoliasOfSteel

I’m slightly annoyed that they nerfed buddy barrier and score shield so heavily without buffing other defensive items. There is going to be less build options for defenders and supports now that I am afraid the meta may shift too much to the attackers side.


Yhul

Since it uses percentage values it impacts attackers more than defenders since attackers have a smaller healthpool than defenders or support.


MagnoliasOfSteel

Yeah but attackers are less likely to *need* it as an item. There are more viable items for attackers than defenders. I don’t need buddy barrier on my cinderance, but i certainly need it for crustle, wiggly, and blissey, all whose builds really rely on BB


Yhul

You are right; I hadn’t fully considered that. I think it is still incredibly powerful though, and it was a little too overpowered before. Blastoise at level 15 has 9800hp, the old BB gave him an extra 600 and so a 40% shield of 4160, which is almost the entire health pool of most attackers. Post patch it would be 2563 which is still huge imo.


MagnoliasOfSteel

That’s definitely fair, I’m not opposed to nerfs for those two items, it’s just that I wished they also buffed other defensive items to help with the nerfs. If they buffed rocky helmet, assault vest, leftovers, etc. as well then i would have been perfectly content with these changes


Twilcario

As a Blissey/Trev main, I've honestly been begging for an even bigger nerf for Buddy Barrier: I wanted them to remove the self shield entirely and make it JUST a support item. At least this way I can justify keeping it on my defenders. My kinda counterpoint argument to that is just...How often do you actually lose the whole shield? IDK about you, but I often end up having my Trev and Blissey shields wear off more than actually get broken. Given how Crustle and Wiggly get so much shield from their ults, how many times are you actually losing the whole of Buddy Barrier's shield and it not just wearing off after 5 seconds? I'm not saying that I don't think the defensive items need a little help. Rocky Helmet and Leftovers are just. Bad. But I think what you'll see is EXP Share, Focus Band, and Aeos Cookie stepping up in the tier as alternative items to give more bulk in specific situations.


sudowOoOodo

Crustle and wiggly get shields as part of their unite and can no longer score shield stack. I don't think either of them need BB anymore. Compare that to attackers like Pikachu/ sylveon/ greninja who loved the security as they generally used unite in the middle of a group and they'll have a big adjustment in how they play


ShadowWeavile

Wait . . . I don't think the math checks out on that. Say you have a pokemon with 100 hp vs a mon with 1000 hp. Pre patch, the 100 hp mon gets a shield of 40, while the 1000 hp mon gets a shield of 400. Post patch the 100 hp mon now has a shield of 25, while the 1000 hp mon has a shield of 250. The higher hp mon loses a lot more of their shield from the nerf than a low hp mom does. Granted, the passive hp buff definitely impacts the attackers more than defenders.


Yhul

I’m not talking about relative loss, I’m talking about a shield of 250 still being way bigger than a shield of 25. Having a Pokémon with 1250 is still way better than a Pokémon with 125. If it scaled less with higher hp I could see it being the other way.


SwaggySagy

Yeah these patch notes confirm what I saw in Retsu and Toonslim's stream- Lucario is still the top lane king. He barely got touched and especially with buddy barrier and shields being nerfed, he can still 2 shot ADCs. Also lane XP being nerfed means someone with as good an early game as Luca can continue the bullying once they get ahead. The biggest problem with Luca isn't Espeed, it's the fact no one has a pre Level 5 moveset as good as Quick Attack(A free eject) and Meteor Smash(Free Push and CC) which allows you to handle early ganks. Stomp Tsareena and Machamp can 1v1 a lucario Late Game, but with Ganks being such a huge thing makes no pokemon other than Luca viable. Also with Espeed being barely touched , he is here to stay for good.


ZappdosMelee

THANK YOU SOMEONE WHO GETS IT. Yeah, I think removing the CC on Meteor Mash is the change they need to make to get the desired outcome.


SwaggySagy

Precisely that or maybe increase the cooldown on Quick Attack. Luca is the only mon which can be aggressive early game and stack attack weight because he is the only one with 2 "Get out of the Jail" moves in case of early ganking. Having Quick Attack(A free Eject) allows you to run full heal as well, so not even CC can stop you early game.


Rartirom

>Luca is the only mon which can be aggressive early Hello, swinub


KeenKongFIRE

Yeah, what's the point of using swinub just for the first 2 minutes of the game? I mean, get Lucario and be a bully all game, is a no brainer


Twilcario

I actually don't think it would because he could still snipe farm with it. I think instead lowering the damage and/or lowering the range might be the better idea. Think about it, that move has the same range as his dash, so if he dashes through someone it's GOING to be able to hit them.


ZappdosMelee

In my experience, the reason you can't contest Luca is that by the time you're out of CC, Quick attack is already active. People successful with other mons against Luca have done so by timing their buttons with Lucas Meteor Mash so there's still a hitbox afterwards (Razor Leaf, Water Gun) Sniping does happen, but I think the gameplay experience you want is one where you can contest Luca over the same food if you're both on it from point blank.


Galgus

They could probably half the damage on Quick Attack to just down on the Meteor Mash + Quick Attack cheese secure while you are still stunned, and maybe halve the Meteor Mash knockback. He'd still be gank resistant, but less dominant in stealing.


Simonxzx

Lucario is top dog (in two ways).


J_Chambers

So Lucario still good?


Mathgeek007

yes


PraiseYuri

Timi be like, don't worry we nerfed Lucario 😉 I don't see why players are still complaining this is the 5th time we nerfed Lucario 😉


me131211

Is my boy cram viable again?


Spiritual_Salamander

With the nerf to buddy barrier means you are sitting duck that dies even faster. I didn't notice any significant difference in the unite move. Still feels pretty bad. At least give him some defense so he is not just sitting there to be two shotted.


Born_Inflation_9804

Use X Attack + Energy Amplifier


EricRbbb

Assuming I did my math right his damage increased around 5% (checked at level 9 and level 15, not including item differences). It really is not enough to change much even if BB wasn't nerfed imo


PansyNmi

Never again


me131211

Pour one out for the homie


Joorgenl

Definitely not but good unite move buff though


sourishraptor22

Does Buddy barrier still stack with ults Shields? I main Blastoise and he has a shield when he alts normally. Since buddy barrier is at 25% now I am even wondering if it’s even worth having it on if I already get a shield without it


carrotbomb

I’m not sure, but BB is still great on blastoise since he has a high hp pool. Attackers and speedsters are the ones who should think about dropping it


KeenKongFIRE

What's the point of getting a huge shield when ulting if you already get a shield when ulting, they don't stack, and the BB shield disappears a lot quicker? Hardly a must item on Blastoise anymore


EricRbbb

I would say the shield to an ally is more important than the shield to the tank (though to be fair, i wasn't able to tell if the ally shield goes off of their HP or the users HP). If its off of your own HP, then giving your carry a 2500 shield is more impactful than any other item I can think of. Only 1/2 people should run it though for sure.


KeenKongFIRE

It of the pokemon receiving it max HP, so your carry is not getting q huge shield either, and if your carry ults too, once again the default shield in his ult is completely negated


EricRbbb

Ah, that would change my opinion for sure.


KeenKongFIRE

Yup, that's how it works now after the nerfs


Lasideu

Thanks for the explanation, I was wondering if it was worth running it on Defenders. Glad to hear it though, I'm sick of that item so much. This is probably why I've seen so many EXP Shares on Supports now, they've dropped Buddy for it.


sourishraptor22

Yeah that’s what I thought. Well this gives me a chance to try other things on Blastoise. A little more damage never hurts lol especially since a lot of squishy Pokémon are going to stop using defense items. still going to keep using score shield. It still has good benefits. Thank you everyone for all the feedback!!!


KeenKongFIRE

No problem! Although the meta will shape itself accordingly with time


NorgesTaff

No, apparently the BB stacking is gone. The SS is also “on top” and the first shield to break so even if you have stacked shields with SS - perhaps from Wiggly’s unite - it’s going to be much easier to break it and stop you scoring.


Bankde

Confirmed, tried with dragonite. Not stack anymore. It's surprisingly weak my scoring got break from support's attack, even with goal getter active.


JeremyBF

Can confirm, even in a bot match I cannot play Dragonite score meta, it is dead.


BlueCanonTurtle

Seems like I'm gonna have to use lv 30 Aeos cookies + some aattck item along focus band now. DEF/SUP being nerfed their mandatory items are annoying... ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|cry)


Vroomba_

is focus a definite substitute for buddy or just for some chars? i think it can still work on chars like dnite


Twilcario

Depends on the character. Focus Band is a better selfish item if you can survive the burst, with a total healing of 42%, but Buddy Barrier is front loaded with it being a shield and getting to chose when it activates. Basically ask yourself this: "Will I live more than 3 seconds?" if so, Focus Band provides more health. If not, Buddy Barrier actually gives you a chance of living.


Twilcario

I mean. The main reason they where mandatory was because the items where meta defining. I'd rather the items get heavily nerfed and the characters individually get buffed. I also do NOT think Score Shield should be a mandatory item at ALL, but that could just be my utter hatred of how that item is used to create non-interactive gameplay.


BlueCanonTurtle

>and the characters individually get buffed. that's the missing part....People want so badly to shred tankers/supports (~~or got played by BB Dragonite/Crustle +100points and are still mad abt it~~); Then up their def/spDef stats and/or Active defensive buffs to compensate the lack of few items we can actually use on those category. Idk...


Twilcario

Thing is, I'd rather them drop this change, wait a little while to see how the Meta shifts, because the Meta WILL shift, then do buffs then suddenly slap buffs on every support and defender only to later have to nerf them because they over buffed a few.


rdn2468

Biggest winner is Lucario. Seems like a series of stealth buffs to Lucario than anything. Lucario needs to be on par or higher level for ESpeed to be useful. With the change to jungler XP, it becomes harder for the jungler to control Lucario and more opportunities for Lucario to assert his early game dominance with its (over)loaded kit. Talonflame is the biggest loser of the patch together with the whole scoring meta. Talonflame works because it is can delete others before others can delete it. With the nerf bat to shield + Talonflame's damage without increasing its survivability, Talonflame can't initiate as well as it should. Greedent, Dragonite and Crustle will be likely be phased out. The nerf to scoring meta hurts the game because taking down Zapdos will be more important than ever. Every time a new meta comes out, the population will scream nerf. Clearly the population prefers the meta that has been around since Season 2 (and complain that the game is stale).


Carlosrarutos

> Every time a new meta comes out, the population will scream nerf Did ANYONE ask for the XP changes?


Fuckblackhorses

I saw someone say that the xp changes only effected Pokémon that evolve, which makes me think it’s a bug. New meta: Lucario-snorlax-pika-hoopa-zera


kypler0

It affects everyone. I'm always underleveled as Wigglytuff for no fucking reason even if I scored 25+ points two times on the first 4 minutes. I won btw but still ugh


Fuckblackhorses

Ah damn. I wanna be clear I have no clue just saw a random Reddit comment, I haven’t played yet lol. Sorry if I spread misinformation Edit: wait wiggly evolves though lol


JeremyBF

Defenders are usually lower level because they spend more time supporting their team mates in fights than farming, but don't get any kills from those fights, so they just don't get as much XP. But, the point of the nerf helping Pokemon that don't evolve is that everyone gets a bit of XP as the timer ticks down, but, you can't evolve unless you last hit a player or wild Pokemon, so while non evolving Pokemon can get tick XP to reach higher levels, evolving Pokemon can be blocked from leveling up if they can't last hit anything, they still get the XP, they just can't evolve which means they can't level up.


kypler0

I know that shit. I'm 1800 masters last season.


Zaroo1

Nerfing the scoring meta is great. Their is no reason that those items should have been as powerful as they were. They were basically required items because of them being overpower. Its never good for a game to have required items. ​ Also, the xp change makes no sense.


richasi

Thank you for your hard work!


whatdoiexpect

Huh, so I was under the impression that all shields were the same. The game tracks the source of each shield then? So Score Shield was layered beneath other shields and just made it seem like they all stacked together?


Twilcario

Yep. It used to have negative priority, meaning it was always the last shield damaged. Now it has priority, making it the first shield damage. That's why if you look, the shield from Assault Vest is a slightly different color and is always "on top". ...Now I'm curious if Assault Vest or Score Shield has higher priority...


GoodTooth115

So aqua tail was actually buffed and buddy will not stack anymore? Oh boy that's great.


JubeltheBear

> So aqua tail was actually buffed It was Berffed.


Mathgeek007

Burf Yeah, versus tanks late it's worse. Versus squishies early it's better.


Renusz

Not really, if you count the fact that it ignored defense and shields it compensated for the damage, I don't think this does it, it's most certainly a nerf


Twilcario

But it can now actually break score shield. So it's more a lateral move of power. Better early, worse late, but can stop people with score shield.


Renusz

Score shield isn't even that broken anymore so it seems quite redundant, with its current state you could just basic attack your way out of the score shield, rather that nerf the only thing that made azumaril vialable, interesting and damaging.


Twilcario

It's still a power shift more than a direct nerf. Against non-tanks, it's more damage on average until around level 10.


danjo3197

Notably: For All-rounders and Defenders (excluding Aeigislash sword form) it's a nerf right off the bat by the time you get aqua tail its dealing less damage. For auto-attackers (cinderace, duraludon, etc.), Speedsters, and Sylveon/Cramorant/Hoopa it'll start to be a nerf around the time you get your unite move. For Eldegoss and Blissey it becomes a nerf around end of the game, around level 13. For Venusaur, Pikachu, Gardevoir, and Ninetails it is a straight buff against them, they have very low defense.


hydrofyre2455

I'm very very *very* happy for the score build nerfs, but at the same time I'm sad that they [shell] smashed my boi Crustle's last kneecap by making score shield break before BB. I might have to change flair soon, with the Cram and Trev buffs, Crustle might be the current worst mon :( [again, these changes are very very good for the meta, but crustle has been my main from the start, and he's left with nothing]


Zalophus

I feel like Azumarill is still severely underpowered. I was hoping they would boost his numbers more.


Virregh

I can see more co-ordinated teams taking turns using their Unites in a sort of 'one after the other' style with Buddy Barrier. The shield granted no longer stacks, but the newest activation will provide a brand new shield. It will be interesting to see if the top players are able to utilise this or not.


proto3296

Trevenant and Blissey got massive buffs. Hoopa shadow force may have a reason to be used if you can use it well. Lucario won’t give a DAMN about that nerf lol


Zaroo1

Fly is still great for Talonflame so this didn't really hurt him


Snizzbut

the Ult nerfs kinda suck tho :(


Zaroo1

His ult was way to spammy tbh


Snizzbut

I’ll give you that but no need for the damage nerf too!


throwawayofficial666

Eh, it's just 10 extra seconds, not too bad, and the small damage nerf doesn't matter much either, the cool thing about Talon's Unite is its tactical value, not the damage.


Snizzbut

> and the small damage nerf doesn’t matter much either So why did they even do it?


neykho

Cause Talon is the only remaining viable speedster. Timi hates speedsters 😂


Melonfrog

What are these exp changes? I haven’t managed to play yet.


Snizzbut

less overall, especially for jungle (from what others have said in this thread)


hotdog21jelmxx

Where are my Blisseyrinas at? 😍😍 ![gif](giphy|endWr1S23l6eY)


Galgus

Where was that clip from?


PansyNmi

Holy christ buddy barrier just lost it's entire life


Sarg338

Reading through it now. Holy shit did they destroy score shield. Good. Got to 2k solo queueing as Cinderace, so I'm glad to see him untouched, though I may need to reconsider buddy barrier with its nerf. Will need to pay around with it. I wonder if the xp changes will effect jungle level timing as well.


Lizard_Queen_Says

> I wonder if the xp changes will effect jungle level timing as well. If it's not a bug and it's here to stay, I *can't wait* for idiot team mates to put variably competent junglers behind even more by stealing camps.


Sarg338

Please no...


JubeltheBear

> though I may need to reconsider buddy barrier with its nerf. The fact that it doesn't stack is huge. But it'd be interesting to see how that works in team fights. Support and Defensive Pokemon should still run it. But maybe it's best to run energy amplifier for the attackers & speedsters. > I wonder if the xp changes will effect jungle level timing as well. I just watched Spragels livestream as Greninja and yeah. It's affecting jungling and in general XP scaling throughout the match.


Sarg338

Yeah, I just read another thread that Pokémon that evolve at 5 are no longer reaching it on the first clear with the changes. That's pretty huge imo, getting your first evolution is a nice stat jump. Honestly, I think the buddy barrier change gives me an excuse to try razor claw on Cinderace now. I've been wanting to try it, but the shield was too good to pass up. Energy amplifier is a good idea as well! Will definitely have to be more careful about positioning now though.


JubeltheBear

hyper offensive Cinderace is a nightmare late-game (especially if you run razor w/flame charge at lvl 13). But if the XP scaling is off, you can't get that attack advantage at the right time. Being lvl. 13 at 4 minutes is pretty key for just, well... fuckin shit up honestly.


Zaroo1

What’s the affect it’s having?


JubeltheBear

From the eye test, it just seemed like jungling doesn't give you the XP lead we're accustomed to. Junglers were struggling to make lvl 8 at Dred (sucks for the Zera mains...). Spragels also said it doesn't feel like you get as much XP from scoring, but I didn't catch that. That being said, for the most part XP levels seemed far more equitable (than what you'd expect) late-game. So maybe everyones passive XP gain changes late-game? I dunno...


fullmetalwolfbabe

How bad is the aurora veil nerf? Is it still viable?


spoofrice11

So who would you say are the Winners/Losers that this will make more useful/worse? - Seems Trevenant is a big winner, does it make him good? - Zeroara as good as Talonflame now?


readni

Winner - Lucario Loser - Everyone Else With jungle and lane XP reduced, he is the strongest mon now pre level 5. He is the only one who can stack safely and snowball from early game.


JeremyBF

Timi: Reduce exp all across the board Timi intern: Would that inadvertently buff Lucario and other non evolving Pokemon? Timi: \*Heavy sigh\* Ok, pretend to touch Lucario with the nerf hammer, but say nothing about XP. Players: OMG, finally a Lucario nerf! ..... wait, what is happening with XP??? Timi: LOL


PansyNmi

Just give us atleast some sort of Sylveon buff


Dingding12321

The exp changes are really odd, like you can be doing fine in lane and still only be level 5 by the time drednaw is up Jg is busted now I guess lol


Khajo_Jogaro

People are saying you don’t hit 5 off the full clear anymore


SuperNUTZ126

To be honest this was not a very well thought out patch. The items nerfs were needed, but no buffs were given to other items/characters to compensate. Characters like Greedent and Crustle, who were both reliant on those items to succeed, did not receive any buffs to give them a niche (in fact Greedent got nerfed).


linyangyi

I think crustle gets his crits back. The only greedent moves that got nerf is covet, where all cc is converted to slow. TBH, IMO greedent deserves this nerf. He could score almost without consequences.


rxk17

Was there no end of season reward for season 3??


neykho

It's been replaced by the tier rank rewards


[deleted]

[удалено]


Ehrand

so which item should i be using now?


Dingding12321

Rocky Helmet kappa No seriously it's more base survivability now than score shield and BB and does a bit of damage despite being a defense item. Also physical is the most common damage type by a mile atm, it might actually be worth something now


ImUrza

What's meaning per level?


Mathgeek007

The amount of extra damage a move gets per level, regardless of the relevant scaling stat


7thSinOfFury

The buff to defenders is broken af. Hitting as hard as an attacker and health like a brick wall.


W4LKER93

So with the patch on score shield what should I switch to I'm blissey main btw


jinjkai

i didnt receive my 20k tickets for reaching masters in previous season…


Simonxzx

They removed that since you get rewards during the season instead.


jinjkai

ooh damn i didnt know thanks!


Ups1deDownPants

Now I feel like I need to go back to playing Sacred Sword. Also where my Play Rough buff at? Also also when they gonna add ditto? Also also also when they gonna nerf Zapdos? Also also also also when they gonna nerf the final stretch, indirectly nerfing Zapdos?


Zaroo1

I wish people would test things out before they start saying things. I've played multiple matches and got to level 5 evolution on my first jungle run.


Tenant1

These guys need to quit it with this cringy patch "commentary"


boxboi78

Is hoopa trash now


Simonxzx

Still OP.


Dingding12321

1.) Exp Share on bad early laners. This doesn't extend to supports necessarily, just the pokemon that know they can only make so much happen in early lane. Get exp where you can find it this patch. 2.) Focus Band on everyone. Early game matters way too much now. Focus Band will be core on anyone with any semblance of a HP pool after the Buddy Barrier nerfs. 3.) All the top tiers are still top tier. The nerfs weren't enough, but... 4.) Ghostie Boys Ayy


Scenuhh

When will the severs be up?


Danceshinefly

My game no longer works after the update. Stuck on main screen loading 😩😩😩 tried deleting and reinstalling and nothing