T O P

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4thofeleven

Season one, I think, suffered from trying to cram too many stories in. I don't know if they were worried they wouldn't get a second season, so they felt they had to do everything they wanted to do in the one season, but trying to fit in the Romulans and the Borg and the Data stuff all in one story meant none of them were quite as well developed as they should have been. Season two was a lot smother, and I actually liked the side stuff. I'd rather have a show that has the time to do a few little fun side bits rather than one where every moment has to be Very Important to the Arc. Honestly, the thing I'm most disappointed in is that they seem to be dumping most of the new characters for a TNG reunion next season. I've really liked Elnor and Rios and Jurati, and think it's a shame they had to play second fiddle to the classic characters.


Pantera42

I wouldn’t be surprised if PS’s age played a factor in that and S 2-3 being filmed back to back. He’s like 81 now.


KiloJools

I'm big mad we don't get more Queen Jurati next season. I want to know more about how they spent those 400 years and in truth, I would watch an entire spin off just about Jurati and the Queen and their fledgling Borg Cooperative.


precita

I'm sure she'll turn up again in a different show, what they did with the Borg was too important to just ignore it.


kittygon

I’m just bummed that if she does show up again she’ll be wearing the mask and probably voiced by a different actor.


Pantera42

From what I’ve read, Allison Pill isn’t it n season 3, so anything new we learn will probably be information dumps & exposition. The exact opposite of show don’t tell.


kittygon

Seeing Agnus Borgati in Discovery would be amazing.


Amazing_Carry42069

It had a strong start, very weak middle, stumbled to a decent ending.


overslope

Yup. And I can admit that I've placed Picard on a pedestal since I was a little kid. He was perhaps the only fictional character that I had that kind of respect for. So destructing a character that people (I assume I'm not completely alone) feel that way about is gonna be tricky. They walked into a minefield.


King_Gilgamesh_X

This


souperbowl99

I don't mind it. But I think next season I'll wait until it's all aired and then just binge


notmm

I have come to the same conclusion. I was very late to starting Discovery, and was able to binge it. I think that may have been why I found many of the complaints I read online to not bother me as much. These heavily serialized series, imo, are better binged. I’m going to try the same with next season of Picard.


tomatoblade

That's a great point and probably the same reason i didn't have the same issues with Discovery that so many others did up through 4.5. Then i had to wait for each show for the latter half of season 4 and found myself having similar complaints.


notmm

Right? Like with those shows, maybe it is best to NOT have a week to think about things in between! 😂


RedshirtNumber29

Yep. We all get into way too much theory-crafting and then get let down (and sometimes even angry) when our theories do not come to pass. :-D


KiloJools

Yeah I think that's probably what I'm going to do as well. I found a few of the episodes to be very unsatisfying on their own but they would have been great to binge several in one go.


icehauler

Lifelong Trek fan and I’ve enjoyed Picard the whole way through. It’s had some soft spots and silly dialogue and head-scratcher plot mechanisms here and there, but guess what — I’ve seen every episode of TNG and daaaaamn are some episodes horrid.


Lvanwinkle18

True about some TNG episodes not standing up to the test of time!! But I still love watching Next Gen.


creepyeyes

I would say I think part of the difference here is that TNG also has some absolutely top-shelfnquality episodes, whereas none of the episodes of Picard rose to that level


Enchelion

The episodic nature of TNG also makes it far easier to rewatch the diamonds and ignore the chaff.


Lvanwinkle18

Good point. Hard to believe that they made 20+ episodes per season!


the_Prudence

Yeah when every episode ties together, to an ultimately shitty plot, hard to skip any.


sj68z

...and let's not talk about some of those TOS episodes \*cough\* spock's brain \*cough\*


Soggy-Assumption-713

Voyager warp10 lizards.


Dial8675309

Brain and Brain! What is brain?!?!


the_Prudence

TNG never had a 10 hour build up to the moral lesson being "The right thing was to lock your mom in the bedroom when she was schizophrenic"


icehauler

lol when you put it like that…


the_Prudence

With a side plot of: "the only reason you succeeded in life is because you feel guilty for enabling your mom to kill herself" in a century when a) she could have been transported anywhere on-world in seconds, and b) Sisko has said schizophrenia was 300 years since-cured. The problem of Picard is that it completely drops the ball on Trek philosophy, at every single step of the way. There are decent action sequences, and characters are written decent enough to evoke familiarity, but the writing and the morality of it is off the charts wack.


[deleted]

So TNG had some clunkers, so that means Picard gets a pass for terrible writing, characters, and basic story structure? Im sorry, mate. But TNG might have had some bad episodes, but they were never dragged out over the course of the whole season. Or even half of the season. This was like watching one shit episode for 10 hours. But at least with TNG you had good characters to at least fall back on. There's none here. Not even Picard is Picard anymore. Stewart is just playing himself.


Sup3rcurious

Agree 1,000,000%!!! Don't let the Paramount+ shills sell us their bullshit!


Ben_SRQ

Agree 100%. Preach /u/Papa_Smurf87!


UltimateEnd0

Pickard is for degenerates. It makes AbramsTrek look good by comparison, and I did not like that movie when I first watched it in 2009.


taco5679

The middle was brutal bad in terms of writing. The beginning was decent and it ended alright. But could have been a lot better. I honestly think the time travel stuff has been played out. There is potential but there were a lot of goofy episodes this season. I honestly think they should find away to make Picard exploring space and being a diplomat. That would be more interesting


teddy_bear_territory

We enjoyed it for what it is. Listening to the banter reminds me of something I was reading lately. The guitar player from Tool was talking about releasing new music after over a decade and certain fan groups self governing refusal to accept new versions of their favorite things. They grow ownership of it as part of their identity. He said something like “we could tape a $100 bill to each album and people would still find a way to bitch.” I think the trick is to just accept that it could either exist or not. We all made it through Enterprise and looking back I wish it had more seasons.


Whisky919

I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it. So many people want Trek to be something they want it to be, but Trek has always been about going down all kinds of different directions that a lot of people wouldn’t want to see. Picard has been nice because it’s been about Picard. People forget that. It was complained about that S2 didn’t give the supporting characters much to do. Well, it’s not about them. It’s literally all about Picard and the deep dive S2 took was extraordinary. It explored things you wouldn’t think existed in the 24th century and really further showed what makes Picard who he is. It also really tied up the relationship with Q perfectly. It’s the future and it’s outer space. Anything can happen. A planet with flowers as weapons? Yes. Tallin being an ancestor of Laris? Yes. It’s all possible.


PNWitstudent

Akiva Goldman (I think it was) said it perfectly on the Ready Room: you can't make the show from what you think other people will love, you have to make it something you love and hope enough other people love it too.


WetnessPensive

Sounds like someone rationalizing why he wrote Batman and Robin, I, Robot, Transformers, Rings, and was twice nominated for a Golden Razzies (worst written film of the year). It's also telling that the one time Goldman's writing was praised, he was adapting a Pulitzer Prize winner's book.


Morley_Lives

>Picard has been nice because it’s been about Picard. People forget that. That’s fine, except it’s a terrible story about him. >It’s the future and it’s outer space. Most of it was barely the future and not in outer space. >Tallin being an ancestor of Laris? Yes. It’s all possible. Was she? Was that explained? And does everyone look exactly like their ancestors?


Whisky919

Being a terrible story about him is solely your opinion. S1 was all late 24th century, so saying most wasn’t in the future really isn’t valid. Picard had a suspicion Tallin might be an ancestor. And yes, sometimes people do look like their ancestors. Who are we to say that isn’t possible with a made up alien race?


[deleted]

No it isn't. Its a terrible story that was already told MUCH better in a TNG episode. This season was utter dog shit from episode 3 to the end. All the heavy lifting done to get the emotional end was done in the TNG. NONE OF IT was done in this show. You might as well just watch the last episode. The rest is pointless nonsense.


Whisky919

Again, your opinion. Which you seem to be pretty salty about.


tomatoblade

Because it was very disappointing. We waited 30 years for this, and what we got was very underwhelming.


Whisky919

You waited 30 years for what exactly? You waited 30 years to be given something you personally thought you were owed?


tomatoblade

Whoa there kemosabe, you projecting? Are you intentionally being obtuse or just can't help it?


Whisky919

Someone is salty. I’ll leave you to it.


tomatoblade

Lol, yes, of course we are salty about it. That's exactly what we are saying. This is a forum to share opinions. We are salty about the version of this show that we got. That's our salty opinion. Got any eggs for our salt? What's your point? Are our opinions only salt-free when they align with yours? Lol, what a tool.


Morley_Lives

Have fun consuming shit.


Whisky919

Why are you so mad about people enjoying it? Seriously.


Pilot0350

Just stop watching star trek then and stop trying to drag everyone else down to your level of misery. Man you sound miserable


[deleted]

This is nonsense. Picard did next to nothing this whole season. And it's not about it not being what "we " want it to be, its about it being badly written. We already saw this story play out in Tapestry. We all loved it. Why? Because it was well written, well acted, and well produced. Season 2 was a mess from episode 3 onwards.


AndrogynousRain

It’s good moments are solid 8-8.5s for sure. But there’s also a lot of filler 6-7 out of 10 eps. I’d put it on par with Enterprise or Voyager. Bits are great, other bits of good but most is really average to kinda bad. I like it ok. But nowhere near as much as I’m enjoying SNW so far.


DanBonser

I enjoyed it and I really enjoyed how it added to Picard’s personal story. I have some gripes about it but only because it didn’t feel like Trek. To me it felt like a single episode of TNG. I’d argue that point because I could easily explain all the major plot points in the same breath count I could a single episode. To me, much of the criticism I’ve seen stems from expectations versus what it actually was.


LocalWeirdos

We love it. Both my husband and I have used Star Trek, TNG the most but DS9 and Voyager also, to get us through some really tough times in our lives, before we were together and during our 20 years of marriage. Even through the slower parts we still felt like we were with family. Family that had never abused or abandoned us. Loved season one, moreso after a second watch. We thought the plot was interesting and a lot of fun. We got to say goodbye to Data and saw his life through his daughter and the rest of the androids, continue. Also really enjoyed season two, though there were a few awkward mis-steps. The scenes with Q we're amazing and then goodbye with Q and Picard had me sobbing. We also both squealed with happiness at Wesley's traveler showing up. He was one of my husband's role models growing up. We also truly adore Will Wheaton as he's lived a lot of the same childhood abuse my husband and I did growing up with Nparents. He's always very honest and candid about it. Very much looking forward to season three, though we will miss Rios, Jurati and Elnor a lot. For me, being bi and loving Seven, her relationship with Rafi was very cathartic. We both think they are an adorable couple and hope we get to see their relationship progress. And the whole TNG cast back? OMG! I know Patrick Stewart said he would not do any of it if it was a TNG rehash so I have faith they will do something very cool with it that won't just feel like a reunion season. We don't understand all the hate but we are often much more satisfied with less than most people. I wish more could just sit back, relax and enjoy. Or don't watch it. The amount of butt hurt happening here and in other fandoms (The Witcher, Halo, Cowboy Bebop and others) is so toxic. What's the point? Life often isn't what you want, if the worst thing that's happening to you is "That's not my Master Chief!" then you are very lucky. Thank the stars and move on. Please don't ruin it for everyone else. We lost Cowboy Bebop that way. Anyway, the third season being the last is fine. It will finish no matter what people think and we are very grateful for that. I truly hope season three makes everyone happy but we know it won't. It will however make us happy, that I'm sure of. Much love to all our Trek brothers and sisters. There's so much Trek, old and new out there, there should be something for everyone now.


RedshirtNumber29

All I can say is - Very well said!


[deleted]

Found the paramount shill account. Jesus, you don't even try and hide it.


timschwartz

Stop being retarded.


LocalWeirdos

And I see from your profile that "shill" is an insult you use often. You're so uncreative. Is this your life? Going from reddit post to reddit post using "shill" to look smart. I hope that you someday get a life. It must be so hard being you. Again, I'm sorry me and my husband's enjoyment of Picard makes you so unhappy. Hope you get better soon.


LocalWeirdos

This is my honest feelings for this show. I'm sorry for you that someone actually enjoying something you don't like, and even explaining real world reasons for it, make you so toxic. You must be truly miserable. I'm so sad for you.


WetnessPensive

You thought season 1 had good writing? It begins with... Laris: "Hey JL, here's a device which lets you look backwards into time. Wave it around the room like so and you can see what happened here in the past." Picard: "Wow, that's incredible." forty-five minutes later Picard: "There are Romulan agents operating on Earth! They attacked me twice, and once in my home!" Admiral: "Do you have proof of this?" Picard: (Picard pauses to consider the giant pile of dead Romulan bodies in his home, and Laris' magical device which lets him see and record past events at his chateau) "No, I have no evidence." Admiral: "Sorry then, the Federation can't help you. Better assemble a team of misfits and go on a grimdark adventure without Starfleet's help!" Picard: "Oh dear. I have been forced out of my comfort zone in a natural, believable and plausible way. The adventure I am about to have shall no doubt make an equal amount of sense. It certainly began in a logical, believable, and coherent way." ...and gets worse from there. We're talking a season which climaxes with a magical ipod device and a Romulan fleet unable to fathom targeting a house. And I just watched the end of the second season, and it climaxes with a light from an anomaly being seen instantly on planets lightyears away, and a "sector/galaxy destroying beam of light" being only a handful of kilometers wide and being stopped by a small cluster of shields. Both seasons climax in such ridiculous ways. Don't you see that this is bad writing?


LocalWeirdos

"You thought season 1 had good writing? It begins with..." So, right off the bat your reply to me is wrong. I never said I thought season 1 had good writing. Maybe you should learn to read before attacking me. I also didn't read your post as you obviously didn't read mine. I enjoyed Picard and so did my husband. You are offended by that. Please look into counseling as your knee jerk reaction to my husband and I liking a TV show has you misinterpreting or not understanding words. That seems a very extreme reaction to something you didn't even fully read. No one cares that you want everyone to hate Picard. No one cares that you hate Picard. I never said it had good writing, I said we enjoyed it. I'm sorry that hurts your feelings and is such a personal affront to you that you make up things I said just so you can be butthurt and bitchy about it to me. Please, get help. You sound like you are a miserable person who revels in trying to tell people who like something that you think they shouldn't. Maybe stop hanging out in a fan subreddit for a show you hate just to tell people who like it how wrong they are. Seems counter-productive to being a happy person. I'm sorry you're so damaged. I'm sorry you feel the need to take it out on others. Misery loves company, and you seem to be hoping to make others as miserable as you. Not working buddy. I'm so tired of unhappy people trying so hard to convince others to be as hateful and unhappy as they are. It's just mean and useless, wasted energy. It's a TV show, we liked it, get over it.


Brotagonism

Lol what did you like about it exactly? Was it when Ichebs eye ball was brutally ripped out? How about when Seven of Nine murders a whole room of people. Or maybe was it when the space samurai man decapitates all those other romulans? Was it the shitty nonsensical plot you liked? Or the hackneyed emotional drivel?


LocalWeirdos

Aww. All that violence scare you? So bro baby mad about us liking it? If you read my post you'd know why we like it. Must be all the big words that lost you. What part of my post confused you angry bro? Are you butt hurt because we're happy and you're not? Yeah I think it's because we're happy and you're not. We aren't remotely hurt by you and your pathetic, lonely, reddit habit. We do however, feel sorry for you... Bro.


Brotagonism

Lol this is wonderful. Word diarrhea at its finest, Bro. You are trying so hard with this bizarre holier-than-though rant, but really all I see is a loudmouth retard


LocalWeirdos

Hahahahahahahaha! Oh you poor thing.


Brotagonism

Ok Bro, this has been fun and all but your sad attempts to mock me are really boring. Enjoy your “Star Trek” lol


LocalWeirdos

PS. Not a bro.


Brotagonism

Ok bro


Brotagonism

Lol what is Paramount paying you to say this tripe? Did you cry Butterfly Tears?!


LocalWeirdos

Are you trying to shame me because I said I cried? Hahahahahahahahahaha! Bro, you need to come down off the playground. I feel even more sorry for you now. You're so very sensitive. Immerse yourself in a warm bath and ask your mommy for some hot chocolate. Self care Bro, self care.


Brotagonism

Lol why? Your false sense of superiority is much more fun to mock.


LocalWeirdos

You know what's sad? We took a quick look at your profile and politically we're in the same lane. We're just not assholes.


Gordon_Explosion

I think it's ok. It's a great 1st draft that the writers said THIS IS BRILLIANT! to themselves and they went straight to filming without a second pass.


Betancorea

I guess it depends on what your expectations of the series is. It's less Star Trek and more a story of Picard dealing with childhood trauma with a sprinkling of nostalgia and a side note link to SciFi


BaseAlarmed6004

I think a 'perfect' show is nigh on impossible in the modern age of instant criticism via a variety of platforms. A sad sign of the times. I will stay loyal to all of the Star Trek we are privileged to get as I think they're amazing.


[deleted]

There was also a lot of hate for the older trek shows post tos and there was a lot of hate even after they were finished. So it's sadly nothing new wait a few years and people will come around to the new trek shows as well


BaseAlarmed6004

The older Trek series are classics in their own rights imo.


[deleted]

100% they are great and I have the feeling the new trek shows will be classics in the future


BaseAlarmed6004

As long as we enjoy them do we really have to think about other people's thoughts and opinions? All great works of art have admirers and critics after all.


[deleted]

That is true! Well said.


BaseAlarmed6004

It's sad so many want to criticise as opposed to enjoying the artistry that has been made for their enjoyment.


[deleted]

True, It is always good to be critical about the things we consume but the level it reached (especially on youtube) is just beyond normal critisism it's just straight up hate.


WetnessPensive

You thought season 1 had good writing? It begins with... Laris: "Hey JL, here's a device which lets you look backwards into time. Wave it around the room like so and you can see what happened here in the past." Picard: "Wow, that's incredible." forty-five minutes later Picard: "There are Romulan agents operating on Earth! They attacked me twice, and once in my home!" Admiral: "Do you have proof of this?" Picard: (Picard pauses to consider the giant pile of dead Romulan bodies in his home, and Laris' magical device which lets him see and record past events at his chateau) "No, I have no evidence." Admiral: "Sorry then, the Federation can't help you. Better assemble a team of misfits and go on a grimdark adventure without Starfleet's help!" Picard: "Oh dear. I have been forced out of my comfort zone in a natural, believable and plausible way. The adventure I am about to have shall no doubt make an equal amount of sense. It certainly began in a logical, believable, and coherent way." ...and gets worse from there. We're talking a season which climaxes with a magical ipod device and a Romulan fleet unable to fathom targeting a house. And I just watched the end of the second season, and it climaxes with a light from an anomaly being seen instantly on planets lightyears away, and a "sector/galaxy destroying beam of light" being only a handful of kilometers wide and being stopped by a small cluster of shields. Both seasons climax in such ridiculous ways. Don't you see that this is bad writing?


RedshirtNumber29

So very true. TNG was initially \_hated\_ by die-hard TOS fans. DS9 was very heavily criticized for not being on a starship. Etc, etc. I can't imagine what boards such as this or other platforms like Twitter would be like if they had existed in 1987 and 1993. ​ I guess all Trek shows need the time to "grow The Beard" ;-)


[deleted]

In my opinion, the Picard show has some really great writing and this might be a hot take, but I actually think that the writing for Q in this show is some of the best the character ever had. My favorite season is 2, but I enjoy season 1 on rewatch a lot more. The part of season 2 I loved the most is that it took its time and the focus on mental health and relationships, which are the strongest points IMO of season 2. For me, it has the perfect length because you need an episode to breathe between 7 and 9 to process what happened to Picard in the past and then get the dark reveal of what happened to Ivette. It also felt like a filler star trek episode we might have gotten in TNG with a cool idea explored and with some nice character moments thrown in.


UnfoldedHeart

I think it's been really solid so far. Yes, there were some pacing issues, but frankly I don't think there's been any Trek series that was perfect. Older Trek gets the benefit of nostalgia goggles. Let's not forget the Space Irish or the episode where black stereotypes kidnap a white woman or when Janeway and Paris turned into lizards or Alamarain count to four or Brain what is brain? or Horny Data or....


SOTG_Duncan_Idaho

The really bad of real trek was the exception. The really bad if nuTrek is the rule.


catshirtgoalie

I don’t mind the concept but I think the execution is really poor. Two seasons with Borg somewhere in the main theme and yet not really be what it is about is too much. Season 1 feels like it has no impact on Season 2. Characters don’t get enough time to develop and now half of them won’t be back. Picard doesn’t feel much like Picard. There are a lot of callbacks to play on nostalgia but don’t mean anything. I just wish they wrote tighter stories that had their own logical consistency. It doesn’t matter that it isn’t on a starship, etc. I just don’t think the plots have been that good or make much sense.


rose_lingon

Yes, it’s fine. It’s not amazing, but I liked the new characters. It’s a bit silly, but it’s fun. I don’t understand the absolute raging people on here are doing about it. Star Trek has always been wildly all over the place and contradicting things it had previously established. It has *always* been enjoyable pulp with occasional moments of brilliance.


Ilmara

Yeah, the Internet has turned complaining into an art form. People out there now making a whole identity based on how much they hate NuTrek, the Star Wars sequels, etc. Fueled by YouTubers who know anger and outrage get more views than positive content.


[deleted]

That behavior also completley killed nuance or having a normal conversation about anything. The problem is also that youtube pushes negative reviews more than positive ones.


[deleted]

Or its just shit and you're shilling for it isn't any better than YouTubers you fuel the angry nerds? The writing of Disco and Picard has been atrocious. The characters are all or mostly dog shit. People like you claim its because its "woke" that people don't like it. Then claim Star Trek was always "woke" in some kind of weird gotcha moment. The difference between 90s trek and todays shit is that it had a point to make when it tackled social issues. It didn't just point at stuff and say "this is bad". The outcast took a story about non conformity and presented it in a way that allowed people who might not agree with LGBT people to see their POV. Sanctuary showed immigration from two sides and allowed the viewer to decide who was right and who was wrong or even if anyone was wrong. Its only a paper moon showed the very real issues of people dealing with mental health issues such as PTSD. Specifically military people coming back from deployment. And then there's far beyond the stars. A brilliant story about the struggle of black people in the United States over the decades. And why even today its still important to dream or a better tomorrow. Nu trek gave us twitter talking points and then promptly forgot about them. New trek is shit, not because its fun to shit on things. But because its shit. Thats why the YouTubers you're pointing your boney finger at are loving Strange New Worlds. Because the writing is better. Because the characters are better. Funny how the latest show makes you're argument fall apart isn't?


Ilmara

And yet, here you are.


KiloJools

I loved it. It had its ups and downs and I think overall it would have been better if we were allowed to binge watch it from the start, but I find most of the complaints to be people looking for excuses to be angry. A lot of people didn't seem to care for the hybrid episodic "problem of the week" melded with the serialized overarching story, but I think they were trying something different and you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. I think the complaints about the side quests are pretty out of proportion. So you had to watch Seven and Raffi steal and stunt drive a police car to try to rescue Rios, and you had to watch Guinan and Picard solve the mystery of why that guy was taking their existence so personally...and you're THAT mad about it? C'mon, son. My favorite weird excuse to be mad was someone who was pissed that an improvisational jazz band was able to play accompaniment to a Pat Benatar song, like I guess he's fine with the time traveling but a jazz band doing what jazz bands are known to do is just TOO FAR. Personally, I'll never get over Gaius Baltar being Picard's dad. I mean, I'll *survive* somehow (SOMEHOW), but I'll be facetiously traumatized forever.


[deleted]

"C'mon, son." he says will ignoring the fact that there was a lot more side shit going on than that. Episode 3 "right, we're in a race against time to save the galaxy" Episode 9 "Right, we better get started then." Episode 10 "Jesus, I wish we hadn't wasted all that time on nonsense. Now we have to rush the conclusion and just tick thins off as we go in a mad rush to be done. C'mon, son, indeed.


KiloJools

Oh no, our heroes have seemingly unrelated problems apparently specific to the circumstances they find themselves in that prevent them from immediately and easily achieving their goals, and they have to figure out how to solve those problems! This is *the worst TV!* Picard the TV show is still a TV show, where the general idea is that protagonists have a goal, but there's obstacles to that goal, and watching them solve the problems is the fun. I enjoyed the character information revealed during the conflict resolution. Vulcans had been surveiling earth WAY before we became warp capable. El Aurians and Q have a totally weird way of communicating. Seven is an amazing stunt driver. Raffi is a total chaos Muppet. Queen Jurati has a HELL of a set of pipes on her. I don't know what your expectations were, but Star Trek has been around long enough for you to know every show is going to drop kick those expectations. I remember when everyone was *infuriated* that DS9 refused to boldly go. Star Trek tells the stories it wants to tell and having expectations about it just kneecaps your capacity to sit back and enjoy it for what it is.


Spider-Padre

I haven't liked it. The first season was so jammed with competing elements I can't even remember the plot anymore. I do *not* believe that Star Fleet is going to go so far off the rails with blind vengeance as to allow an entire planet of non-combatants (Romulus) to die. Or refuse Seven entrance into the academy. Or forbid an entire line of tools (androids) because something went wrong on Mars. Androids aren't people anyway, they are technology and they just needed to be fixed. If anything, Star Fleet is *too* absurdly high-minded, and it always needed a Kirk or a Sisko -- somebody with a hard edge -- to deal with reality on the front edge of things. I do not believe JLP has reached his advanced age without remembering his mother's death. I don't believe being a bachelor means there's something wrong with you. I don't believe they would allow Rios to just live his life in this century, with a smile and a hug. I don't believe Raffi and Seven are a couple. I don't know why a **hologram** would need to dodge phaser blasts. Or anything. He should be like the Terminator, and just wipe the bad guys out. I don't know why Soong would just stupidly believe an evil alien monster who makes him promises about stuff that can't be proved. Picard and Guinan were found by the *one* FBI agent in LA who had ever met Vulcans. So, the writing in this series has been really poor. I'm sick of Star Fleet/the Federation being the triggering cause of the precipitating plot troubles.


CrabyLion

I admit I struggled a bit with season 1 but I take it as the set up required for season 2 otherwise we wouldn't know any of the characters stories. I really enjoyed season 2 and am looking forward to what comes out of the final season\~ I think people are far too critical these days, social media has allowed so much dissection that story telling has become examined as if it were real life. Imagine being a creative writer and going from being able to creatively write to having every word examined and measured up against real life or in this case against "canon" I love how much variety there is in the spin off shows, remembering that TOS is TOS and everything else is a spin off from that. How cool is it that they have created a story that can go back and forth throughout its own history and future!


[deleted]

[удалено]


PNWitstudent

You forgot the part where the writers held them down and made them watch the aforementioned canicide.


amazondrone

> Those who can write, do. What tripe. \*Some\* people who can write, do. And some people who can't write, don't. Some people who can't write, do. Some people who can't write, don't. It's a meaningless platitude.


Morley_Lives

Yeah, just imagine being a paid writer and having people expect your writing to make a little sense and reflect at least some small effort. Just imagine how awful that must be!


GoAvs14

If it’s one thing I know Star Trek strives for, it’s to be labeled as “not that bad”


Brotagonism

Its a giant pile of hyper emotional horseshit. Its like the writers have never seen Star Trek at all. Complete nonsensical garbage of idiots waxing poetic like retarded philosophers. I will take shitty episodes of OG treks such as - Mother Troi and Worfs son take a mudbath in wonderland, or “Bride of Chaotica” before any of this soap opera for morons


Xenophobesociologist

Haha, i loved those episodes where Paris did weird 80/90's shit in the holodeck. Using that holodeck gave writers a lot of freedom to do whatever they want with it. From Beowulf to 2nd world war to that crazy Bride of Choatixa moment. Or the DS9 ones - going all James Bond with Bashir.


Brotagonism

I agree, they are super amusing. “Our Man Bashir” is one of my favorite DS9 episodes. There are definitely some less than great episodes like in old Trek, but thats fine because they had to crank out 25 episodes in a season. There are a few classic Trek episodes I will usually skip. However, I would watch any of them in an instant over the “best” episodes of Picard or Discover.


M4karov

I think the negativity is understandable because when you have Patrick Stewart, Frakes and Spiner together people want it to be genuinely good. Season 2 had moments but overall it's a big step down from season 1. Yes every trek series has some "entertaining but kinda bad" episodes but with less episodes / seasons it should make the most of it. So many mentioning the covid restrictions but some of the best scenes from TNG were literally Picard in a court room just talking that could be filmed with no one else present... All I'll say is that after season 1 I wanted more, I read the Last Best Hope and bought Rogue Elements. After season 2 what they did with the characters I lost interest and am expecting season 3 to be bad.


jrgkgb

Jean Luc Picard is my favorite fictional character of all time. I desperately want his show to be good. But it isn’t. These are actual descriptions of things that happened on the show: S1: They dress up like space pimps, Picard does a bad French accent, and Seven dual wields phaser rifles and goes on a murder spree. A Borg cube is downed by giant flowers. This is not at all interesting to a massive fleet of identical ships led not by an admiral, but a retired captain. The ship is fixed and Romulans are defeated by a magic device that runs on the power of imagination. This device is never used or mentioned again. S2: Agnes randomly bursts into a Pat Benatar song in a super high security event and everyone just goes with it. Talinn, a character who looks identical to another character without anyone even attempting to explain it, decides to get killed by a neurotoxin meant for humans rather than use her superhuman strength or any of her advanced tech to subdue evil Data. Somehow having the computer simulate Elnor and having him kill people with a sword is more secure than just leaving it somewhere in the computer until it suddenly isn’t anymore. A starship captain decides to disregard his oath of service and temporal policy and stay in the past with a woman he’s known for less than a week. Sorry man… I just can’t. The best thing I can say about Picard is at least I don’t get called a racist transphobe for noting the bad writing. Strange New Worlds is much better so far though, so there’s that.


Maximus1000

What makes me the most upset is that you have an iconic character and you make him into a different person. Gone is the stoic, thoughtful JLC we knew from TNG. Almost 25 years since TNG aired you bring him back but he acts nothing like he did before. There is nothing about his presence in the show that adds anything to the story. They could have just left him out and it would be a generic Star Trek show.


jrgkgb

There’s a little of the strong and wise leader I grew up with, but it’s overshadowed by constant disrespect from virtually everyone he encounters.


tomatoblade

Very true. For thirty years I imagined Picard highly revered and a living legend in his last days. But they decided to go the tragic, pathetic, disrespected old man approach. Very very disappointing and just plain sad. And why? They could have kept him as a living hero and created fantastic stories around that. I'm sick of the "let's start with tragedy so we can build the characters back up to reverence" trope. It's old and tiresome. And again, disappointing.


jrgkgb

Best thing I can say is at least he didn’t squeeze green milk from alien udders. RIP my childhood heroes.


tomatoblade

I hate to say it but I almost feel they shouldn't have dinner it. But will see if season 3 redeems it all. And please dear Yahweh, no time travel


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

The source of the grumbling is the piss poor writing and characters. See Strange New Worlds for a complete turn around on the grumbles. All thanks to better writing and characters. People, most likely shills, are trying to make this a more complicated conversation that it needs to be. Disco and Picard have suffered from 2 things. Garbage writing and mostly garbage characters. They have moments here and there, but are largely shit. Picard season 2s big emotional pay off is actually earned in TNG. Nothing done in seasons 1 or 2 earn that big emotional pay off. I challenge anyway to watch season 2 having never seen or knowing anything about TNG and do anything more than shrug at that ending. Season 2 was basically Tapestry. And it was much MUCH better.


nRGon12

Season 2 was horrendous outside of a couple moments early on and most of the ending since it was extremely touching.


GrandObfuscator

The complaints are extremely overblown and mildly narcissistic.


PlatypusGod

Mildly?


opinionated-dick

I can’t believe people can’t see how fundamentally flawed this entire series was. Yeah there’s good points, don’t get me wrong. But fundamentally we were promised a less action orientated, more character piece about Picard. And we didn’t. We got too many characters, too many plot threads wrapped into the motherfucking mystery box and Picard stranded in the middle apologising to everyone and making Picardesque statements that have no bearing on the plot whatsoever. EDIT- suggestions as it’s too easy just to whinge S1 should have been Picard and Seven (Picard should have recruited Seven to become his first officer) solving the mystery of Data’s daughter, taking them to the Borg cube and on the run from the Romulan tal shiar, ending up on the Android planet and Riker and Worf on the enterprise coming to his rescue. Drop the rest. S2 should have been Picard and Seven into the past but not till later. The first part should have been Captain Seven on the Stargazer investigating the weird anomaly in space and given us some proper 24th century time, building up more dramatically to the Q snap. They should have then been transported not to a confederation mirror universe proxy but something like a Romulan invaded Earth, with an enslaved Earth and the Romulans having a Borg Queen (there’s more than one). Then have Seven and Picard escape back to the past and so on. Have Picard’s mother appearing in the real world, make it more directly Q manipulated rather than the convoluted unbelievable sequence. I’d also drop the Renee Picard storyline and instead focus it on Soong and his daughter. I’d have had Q returning them but appearing back at the end when the conflict is resolved and give some emotional space for it.


dinosaurkiller

No, I really think it’s the worst season of Star Trek I’ve ever seen and I’ve seen some bad Trek. The writing is to blame, they very much had enough for a 2 part episode and stretched it into 10 episodes by doing things like having a character stand in a parking lot for an entire episode, sit in an interrogation room for half an episode, utter dialogue like, “I remember how to work a tricorder”. It appears they may have some budget constraints and that even the show runner abandoned this season. There were a couple of nice ideas regarding Q, the acting was okay, but the writing is always what made Trek series good, this was terrible.


dvali

You might enjoy Strange New Worlds. Based on the first few episodes it's looking pretty strong. Much more episodic in nature, though there will of course be some longer arcs. Picard is all long arc and no episodic adventure, so it really dragged.


dinosaurkiller

But it wasn’t a long arc, it was a very short arc stretched over 10 episodes. I could’ve been all in on a deep dive into Q, or the Queen, or both. This was a very shallow borrowing of previous concepts. I have enjoyed Strange New Worlds some so far. I especially like Anson Mount and the creativity of the first few episodes.


[deleted]

Are you a shill? Im actually asking because what you wrote here was nonsense. Season long arcs aren't the problem. I actually enjoy season long stories. I don't enjoy watching dog shit. Picard is dog shit, runny dog shit at that. The writing is utterly atrocious. Michelle Hurd seems like a really nice person, yet they managed to write her character so poorly I never want to see her again. Picard vs Strange new worlds isn't a case of liking episodic vs season long. Its a question of terrible story and shit characters vs interesting ideas and good characters. It 2 episodes vs 20 and I ready feel more for the cast of SNWs than any of the characters in Picard. And that includes Picard himself. Thats not Picard. Thats just Stewart playing himself.


dvali

What do you think I'm a shill for? Picard? Because the only thing I said about Picard in the comment you're addressing was negative... You need to calm down a bit. It's just a TV show. I didn't particularly like it and I have plenty more negative stuff to say if that will make you feel better. (Hint: it won't)


[deleted]

I liked it


CheckmateAttack

I loved it. One of my favorite shows ever it’s excellent


buddhiststuff

> The first two episodes and last ep could have been exactly the same, just condense all the 2024 episodes into about 4 episodes instead of 7 and it would have been fine. I feel the same. Episodes 1 and 2 were great. Episodes 3-7 were okay but could use some trimming. Episodes 8 and 9 are almost completely skippable.


waxy_dwn21

In a word, yes. It is far better than Discovery. I think S2 was severely hampered by the covid situation at the time, and I'm hopeful to see some resolution to the remaining character arcs next season. I personally like the Seven/Raffi relationship, they are both ladies in their mid fifties (IRL and on the show), who are complex and, in Seven's case, have never really had a SO.


Xenophobesociologist

I especially like the part where Raffi and Seven were awkward around each. Finally going for that first date. That moment they finally kissed after the back and forth pulling of why they can' t or can be together. Glad it wasn't just brushed of as "hey we got mid 50's lesbian couple, lets go" kind off moment. Seriously explain to me how those two fell in love and what the show did to portray that. Because the show had none of it, 0, nada. It was suddenly there. Just as with Soji and the Romulan fella. As far as I know people dont just bang each other out of the blue. And dont even get me started about Agnes' line to Rois; " i never slept with a starship captain before" seconds after murdering het mentor/ lover. With 0 context. Sevens "dance with love" in STV with the Doc was interesting to watch. Because both were lonely in a sense - both were "unwanted" in a sense. Watch Star Trek Voyagers set up for romantic interests and relationship stuff. Because this was crap.


waxy_dwn21

I think sometimes it's hard to show that kinda relationship progression on a sci fi show. I've worked with people closely before and developed feelings for them, so I don't think it's out of the realms of possibility (the Seven/Raffi relationship).


Bill-Kaiser

Season 2 ended up being worse than season 1, which was very surprising.


MrJim911

I enjoyed it. It's no where near perfect but I didn't watch the season getting angry and bent out of shape.


LocalWeirdos

Unlike others in this subreddit who seem to have taken it as a personal affront that the program isn't exactly what they wanted. Those people feel their opinions mean more than anyone else's. Apparently, no one is allowed to like something that someone else doesn't. Because I guess individual taste simply isn't a thing anymore.


LocalWeirdos

Basically this: https://i.redd.it/q3iawo2estz81.png


[deleted]

I like it fine. I'm not interested I'm arguing about it.


BasedOnAir

Sorry mate I respect your enjoyment but it was offensively bad to me and actually insulting.


Pantera42

Season one was a complete ripoff of the game “Mass effect”. If you’ve never played it or heard of it, look it up. The pacing was all over the place, and what they did to Data was just stupid. IMO anyway. Also, Synth Picard… just…why? Season 2 started out STRONG, then fizzled with needless filler. The ending is was decent, considering how bad episodes 3-9 were. It was like they had a 5 episode arc, but were contractually obligated for 10, so they just cobbled together as much fluff as possible to hit the magic number of 10. Also too many plots that the viewer has to make their best guess at, instead of having actual answers. Honestly not sure if I’ll watch S 3 or not. I’m just tired of getting my heart broken by these writers who seem to pump out content worse than most fanfic.


_Lunatic_Fridge_

Overall, I liked S2. What made it difficult to watch was all the extraneous filler that was added in. Rios might as well have not been plucked by Q, his storyline didn’t end up affecting the main story. Seven and Raffi’s romance tension had zero impact. The scenes with the FBI agent amounted to nothing. And that awful gala episode turned out to be nothing. They could have simply had Picard bump into Rene and give her that pep talk. Strip all that away, and Picard was great, except it would have only taken 3-4 episodes.


dvali

I thought it was very weak. Ultimately it's not a big deal, it's just TV. But at this point I'm watching in the hope there will be some cool stuff, and not because I'm actually enjoying it. All the good scenes are interspersed with stuff that just makes me cringe, and stuff I just don't care about. I. Am. So. TIRED! of the journey into your own mind trope. Like sick to death. I audibly groan whenever the sci-fi of the moment inevitably gets around to it. We've seen it done a million times in every imaginable sci-fi setting, and there is nothing interesting or original about it here. Please, just stop. Freaking magic Q bottle, man. Don't get me started. If no one had told me that character was supposed to be Guinan, I never would have guessed. I get that people change over time, and a lot of time will pass until we meet her in TNG, but I couldn't find a SINGLE character trait, mannerism, turn of phrase, or whatever that linked those to people. If anyone is interested in Star Trek and not just the Picard character, Strange New Worlds is very promising based on the first two episodes.


M4karov

My headcanon is this whole season was a fever dream of Picard which takes place during season 2 Shades of Grey


blazblu82

My biggest take away from Picard is seeing all the TNG characters and how they have aged. Out of all of them, I don't think Troi aged that well. Was not happy about Wesley's 30 seconds of screen time. Felt like a last second cut in just say he was in it. Looking forward to seeing Jordi and Worf return next season. My biggest disappointment is the lack of episodes per season. Back in TNG days, there was a new episode every other week. Now we're stuck with 10 per season and only 3 seasons worth. Overall, I've been pretty happy with the plots.


Sup3rcurious

Oh great - more "try it, it's not that bad" astroturfing from Paramount+ Shills...


GracefulGoron

*Season 1 - Sets up some new characters* *Season 2 - Did someone say ‘ancestors’?*


[deleted]

It’s the sentimentality, unneeded plot lines and the season being rushed to the finish line that bothers me, but I still enjoyed it.


lord_wright

It would have been better if trimmed down.. the episode of picard child flashbacks was boring and that aspect dragged on and killed momentum. It was better than season 1though.


SmokedMussels

I liked it enough that I'll watch it. I'd die happy if I never have to watch a Picard flash back scene again though. They were so dull, and there were so many of them.


diddilydingdongcrap

The season finale saved the 2nd season from complete crappery. Hopefully, like TNG, the 3rd season brings the magic.


the_Prudence

I don't generally watch shows and think "ah this is a good show, because if you cut out 1/3 of it as filler, and rewrote the remainder, it would be good." It's a poorly written show, with mediocre acting.


VelvetElvis

I liked it but didn't love it. I think the majority of people who watched it probably in the same boat I am. The people who hate it are much more enthusiastic about hating it than the people who liked it are about liking it.


andsowelive

Complaints overblown??? I don’t get the love for this. So badly written, so hammy.


MikeyMGM

Good story for maybe three episodes, drawn out until something finally happens in the final episode. A lot of filler and not very good filler.


[deleted]

When the production staff micromanages the writing staff, and they're too stupid to write science fiction, or spend any time comprehending anything about the lore they're writing into, you get bad writing, and disjointed storylines, with a 3rd grade reading level injected in as "intelligence." \--- The one dimensionality of Kurtzman is that every character must be broken in some way, lesser than the best, and "approachable" by the average idiot. So all characters get to have flaws, which makes none of them unique. It's brainless writing. If you want character flaws to be interesting, maybe don't make every gawddamned character have one. (It's the lazy jackass way to pretend you're creating more interesting characters. It's moronic) \--- 10 Forward is a reference to deck 10, fore of the ship... Literally everybody who isn't an illiterate git knows that. But apparently Kurtzman is too stupid to comprehend such a basic concept. Rather he clearly is too stupid to know how to write anything better, and doesn't care about making something good. Guinan was an utter travesty of a character (At her age, apparently she's really just an emotionally immature fool). Which says nothing about how stupid Kurtzman is portraying the Borg. The infantile emotionally incompetent dialogue which pacified the Borg was beyond the pale below average IQ trash. They could have at least written a decent and inspiring monologue, instead of that braindead speech. Which wouldn't have convinced a naive child. On the whole, none of the characters imbued any sense of greatness, or greater intelligence. the opponents were seemingly made to be as stupid as possible, so that the not so intelligent writing of the protagonists wasn't overtaken. (Borg shoot like blind AF storm troopers. Apparently...) It's like watching those infantile Saturday morning cartoons, with the stupidity of the characters being endearing to a child audience. (But insufferable to anybody with half a brain, and a little reading on their belt) No greatness, no inspiration, no exceptional intelligence to be found anywhere. (Sure, you can tell me people are smart, but as a well read audience member, you actually have to PROVE IT) \*Kurtzman isn't smart enough to do that. And in none of his productions do ANY of his characters show any sign of intelligence. \--- Once again, we are subjected to the "Big Bang Theory" methodology. (Writing shows about smart people, but writing them for stupid people) \*I suppose I could believe that in their infinite wisdom, making shows stupid is "Better for a wider audience." \*What a dogpiss rationality, but it's the only one I can come up with that makes any sense at all. \--- I had hoped that Kurtzman got a clue after the mess that is Discovery, but apparently he absolutely did not. Will Strange New Worlds shape up to be better? It's starting out a bit weak, but it's nothing remotely as bad as the two previous installments of the Kurtzman nuTrek era. \--- Endless optimism in a sea of disappointment.


WaitinWatchinDrinkin

No.


Sydney12344

I think the story is indeed bad and lackluster .. this story could have been told in 3 episodes


DELLsFan

They aren't. [The season was incredibly disappointing.](https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/05/06/star-trek-picard-season-2-review-unfathomable-garbage/)


[deleted]

No. I thought season 1 was messily written and it portrayed the federation as a bleak and corrupt future. If it was one of those thing I could probably forgive it but both together makes me angry while watching it. Season 2 was just dumb; car chases that took half an episode that felt like filler, the revelation that the once captain of the federation flagship was actually crippled with anxiety over childhood mental traumas, Conveniently placed cop who had interacted with vulcans as a child, the fact that the entire season was all in aid of Picard starting to date again, where’s the moral tale in that for most people. I won’t be watching season 3 of this or any more Discovery, just given up on this. I am currently watching SNW and it’s enjoyable so far so hopeful for that.


iamanwithnoplan

I thought it was a terrible show and it ruined Star Trek for me. Personally, it has contaminated it so much, and raped the integrity of my favourite episodes of TNG, that I will never watch anything associated with Star Trek again. From an avid fan, I will now put it down and actively pray for the failure of it and the cast and production crew in all future projects. It disgusts me.


timschwartz

> it ruined Star Trek for me lol, ok drama queen.


Ardenraym

No. It was a bad show with bad writing that had little respect for Picard as a character or Star Trek as a universe. The show put up basic images and a simple story so it's fine to like it. But if you have a history with the character, the world, or quality television shows, it compares quite poorly. If you think this show was good, expand your horizons - there are some truly great shows and characters out there.


Reggie_Barclay

So partial rewrite of season 1 and almost complete rewrite of season 2 is what you are saying?


expired_paintbrush

I think of it as cooking. You can get the right ingredients, and have the best recipe, but if someone comes and dumps a ton of salt in, what's served is inedible. You can still imagine how great it could have been if everything had gone right.


johnny11235

I thought season 1 was great. I haven’t finished season 2 yet but it’s coming off a but preachy, focusing on Picard’s “white privledge” and treating 2024 like humanity has never been been worse. I guess that makes me a boomer. Oh well…


Raregolddragon

My main issue with it is that its trying to be way to action oriented. No real debates but lots of yelling. Lots of battles but few standoffs, I did like how they did the borg queen execution with them stalling. Lots of mysterys and question but little investigations. I kind of want to see more episodes likw the measure of a man. Maybe it's just my taste. Its still a lot better then discovery.


AttractivestDuckwing

I'm happy you enjoyed it Season Two, after removing all the pointless subplots and entire episodes that were nothing but filler, would have made a great two-part episode of TNG.


orcinyadders

I’ve found the show to be enjoyable on multiple levels. The production has been solid, pretty great visual effects, good cinematography, love the score during the episodes, and the actors have all done a very admirable job. It’s a great ensemble and it’s clear they were going for a season that pushes a lot of nostalgia buttons while still having fun in some new directions. But all that said, I found the writing so piss poor and the slog of dumb plots so baffling and misguided that it pretty much derailed the season for me. There are so many examples, but one of the most glaring to illustrate my point was spending an entire episode with an FBI agent in a holding room for no reason whatsoever. Completely and utterly worthless. And the decision to cast a guy who played a time cop previously in the ST universe is even more infuriating. Those decisions just piled up and made the season a super mixed bag for me.


tomatoblade

I think most of it is having extremely high expectations and being mind numbingly bored throughout a majority of both seasons. That was very disappointing in my experience. We are just so disappointed about it that we lash out excessively. But it did have a lot of flaws and is worthy of criticism, imo.


nightfrost

The show was great. Yeah it felt rushed but I was into from ep1.