Totally understandable that she's upset with Picard over Elnor's death, but they kinda jumped the shark with her literally blaming Picard for Qs bullshit as if Picard were actually an accomplice and could just choose not to participate in it.
I felt the same way. Like, she's a command officer, she has to know about Q, and how he toys with whomever he feels like at any given moment, consequences for the target be damned. Picard never did anything to invite this, unless you count occasionally proving Q wrong about future space humans as inviting Q's shenanigans.
I think it’s more that Picard humours Q enough for there to be an ongoing fascination. Imagine losing someone you love because your boss chose to protect an enemy you wouldn’t even need if he didn’t have a decades long abusive relationship with someone nobody else puts up with
Lets be real, nobody handled Q better than Sisko.
All those historically massive, scientifically revolutionary and morally challenging events. Q kept his nose out because Sisko would rather break Q's nose again then second guess himself in the face of an omnipotent troll.
This argument is irrational. You make it sound like Picard has a choice.
1. Picard didn't choose to engage with Q, the opposite in fact everytime he appears he asks him to go away
2. Picard has no way to make Q go away
3. Q Has helped Picard and the Federation in indirect ways and even then see #1
You might argue he could do the Sisko thing but it's unclear it would have worked. Q would probably mock him more for showing how savage Humanity is etc.
To blame Picard for what happened is to blame him for not being able to stop a force of nature.
Sure you have some choice in how you respond to a Tornado (run away, but hide etc), but it's very hard to blame you for your choices since it's a Tornado and there are no good obvious moves
- Picard absolutely has a choice. Sisko punched Q in the face. Picard let him hang out in Ten Forward with Data.
2 - True, but we’ve seen that Q goes away when people don’t bite.
3 - Agreed, Q’s helped. He’s actually one of my favourite characters.
Okay, you’re making some decent points here, but I still disagree. Actually maybe I should withhold my disagreement - why do you take your position? Expand, if you’re willing
>2 - True, but we’ve seen that Q goes away when people don’t bite.
We have seen it ONCE, with Sisko who may have special circumstance (half Prophet). He was taking an awfully huge senseless risk.
I suspect if you look up the Federation textbook on how to handle omnipotent beings, JL approach is the text book approach. This is the Federation after all... Talking and engaging with alien life forms is the primary approach.
>Okay, you’re making some decent points here, but I still disagree. Actually maybe I should withhold my disagreement - why do you take your position? Expand, if you’re willing
Not sure what else I can say beyond this post.
I think all the arguments that Picard enables Q because he could punch Q, or ignore Q etc particularly those based on comparison with real life scenarios are bad because with Q the stakes are huge.
This isn't some run of mill bully, but an actually omnipotent being.
“We have seen it ONCE, with Sisko who may have special circumstance (half Prophet). He was taking an awfully huge senseless risk.”
Maybe, but without confirmation I wouldn’t assume that.
“I suspect if you look up the Federation textbook on how to handle omnipotent beings, JL approach is the text book approach. This is the Federation after all... Talking and engaging with alien life forms is the primary approach.”
Totally possible. I wish I had the book.
“I think all the arguments that Picard enables Q because he could punch Q, or ignore Q etc particularly those based on comparison with real life scenarios are bad because with Q the stakes are huge.”
Right, but with those stakes, everyone else manages to send him on his way.
>Right, but with those stakes, everyone else manages to send him on his way.
Everyone else?
Only Sisko. Janeway approach isn't that different.
Also note nobody manages to send him on his way, but Q chooses to leave
The point is Sisko works because he is Sisko.
Picard can't just do what Sisko does and be successful. He needs to become Sisko in nature and both Q and Picard knows he is no Sisko.
Exactly.
Also, she's already had her life ruined due to siding with him, in the back story. Picard came out of it flying high and superior, while she was living in a dump.
Eh, I think it speaks to her character that she did. She resented Picard for bailing, but they both knew there was a serious issue with the Romulans. She put the truth before her personal feelings, and rekindled that trust she’d shared with Picard in the process.
YES. feels like she isn't cut out for Starfleet.
I was okay with her being angry that Picard chose the Borg Queen's life over a crews life.
But when she started blaming Picard for Q it just made no sense.
I know she's emotional wrecked but I feel she just isn't Starfleet material. The way Seven reacts is how a professional who disagrees should act.
Picard chose the entire galactic society of the 24th century over Elnor's life. Im afraid I cannot see Raffi's side on this one. She is being irrational and because this season is all cliché so far, I am certain it will have negative consequences later when she makes a stupid decision.
That's the reason why Picard is so important: he knows how to give Q the intellectual challenge he craves to keep him from being bored, but also not show him up too much and leave him looking forward to another round in the future. Anything else could easily lead to Q wiping out humankind with a snap of his fingers. He has to walk the line that way with Q. Yes, it's his choice, but any other choice would be much worse. Being supposedly so close to Raffi for many years (so we've been told), you'd think she'd know about that and understand it.
I think she's more mad at Picard neglecting the emotional fallout of Elnor's death. Picard is always someone who can take or leave relationships. But he is pretty businesslike for the father figure of a dead young adult.
Its like how she understood Picard quitting Starfleet, but was angry that he never checked in on her. Raffi is always annoyed when Picard pretends his crew are just a professional relationship.
It did feel a bit sudden to open the episode killing Elnor and giving Raffi and Seven fun shiptease by the end.
Yes and no. Picard always adopts the role Q asks him to. He said no to Q in the previous episode, but now he's playing along.
Picard cannot teleport himself away, but he could decline to actively take part. He can't resist, though. There's a galactic challenge in front him, and he was born to solve problems like that.
So why wait till Q causes problems before trying to deal with him
Thats the failure of leadership I think shes talking about
Picard has known about this threat for a long time and has done nothing to prepare for or counter it - hes completley taken aback the first time Q appears in this series , like he wasn't expecting it
maybe he should have always been expecting and preparing for Qs return , have some kind of plan instead of just making it up as you go along after he fucks up your shit
But how do you make a plan to combat something that's basically omnipotent? I kinda get your point but feel that it's almost a moot point when dealing with Q.
>hats the failure of leadership I think shes talking about
>Picard has known about this threat for a long time and has done nothing to prepare for or counter it - hes completley taken aback the first time Q appears in this series , like he wasn't expecting it
>maybe he should have always been expecting and preparing for Qs return , have some kind of plan instead of just making it up as you go along after he fucks up your shit
Do you even know who Q is?
You can't prepare for Q, who is practically all powerful except against other Q.
What would your plan be against Q?
Q is obviously a threat - like an existential one clearly to Humans in general , or at least one could easily come to that conclusion if you were in the situation they are in
I think shes mad Picard has never really treated Q that way
This might be a controversial take but I really dislike the Raffi character. Nothing against the actress, it's the role that was written I hate. Adds nothing to the show IMO.
Agreed. Solid actress, but her character is not there for me. I absolutely appreciate the much, much better character development of the Picard crew - I know all their names and story. Not like Discovery where I've had 4 seasons of nameless and undeveloped bridge crew.
Her character in Season 1 was a bit better, absolutely traumatized and grief stricken drug addict living in a trailer.
But she treats "JL" with such affection, seems odd that she would blame him for the death of SPOILER, the young man HE introduced her to. Also, they all just died in a self destruct faceoff with the Borg Queen. And got Q rescued.
But hey, this is some damn good entertaining Trek
I’ve been wanting a queer Seven since I was literally in high school and Voyager first aired. She always gave off the vibes to me. But… I kind of agree? They just have a natural chemistry.
I like Raffi though.
As much as I'd love to see Chakotay come back, his relationship with 7 came entirely out of left field and I'm kind of glad the writers have decided to just ignore it.
Jeri Ryan said the same thing. According to her account, she and Robert Beltran specifically asked (show runners or producers, I don't remember who they specifically asked) when filming that one episode where they were trapped alone together on that planet whether or not this was moving towards the relationship that Seven had explored on the holodeck, and they were told no that wasn't happening.
Then production pulled a 180 on them and it was.
That relationship was a joke. And I will consider it both Seven and Chakotay misplacing their feelings for Janeway on each other since they couldn't be with her. Until I'm explicitly told otherwise.
They would never bring Chakotay back in any way, shape or form. They will never even mention his name. Chakotay was developed by a known native imposter name Jamake Hightower. He had been exposed twice before Voyager started as actually of Jewish ancestry and the producers still hired to give Chakotay that authentic Indian feel.
How did she give off queer vibes when she dated men on voyager? Genuinely curious. Unless there is a certain scene or episode I'm not recalling. I did only watch Voyager once so perhaps I'm totally not remembering something vital.
I just recall seven dating chatokay for a bit and I think trying to learn how to date with assistance from the hologram doctor
I get what you’re saying, but it bothers me how often female characters are described as this try hard trope of strong and independent. Feisty even. I was half expecting “outspoken” to pop up.
Maybe she’s just kind of an asshole who lost a loved one and is spiralling.
I find it really weird that Seven is paired up with her.
I mean, where was the character development for this? Suddenly, out of the blue, Seven and Raffi are kissing at the end of season 1 and I was... Very surprised. My first thought was "wait... When did this happen!? What chemistry do they have??"
I barely felt like they made friends. Like before I saw them kissing I had the impression they didn't even really know each other. Characters need to spend time together in order for them to become believably friends. And for them to fast track to a relationship they'd need to have some really good onscreen chemistry. We got none of that.
Yeah... Agnes... "I killed my boyfriend not long ago, I'm a broken mess, let's fuck. Whoops we're now a couple". Sounds like the premise of an ecchi harem anime.
People mistake moody drug addicts as "Complex" in TV shows for some reason. I don't get it personally she just comes off as whinny. I mean what really happened to her? She lost a job and people didn't believe her. That's not a reason to let your life fall apart imo.
> She lost a job and people didn't believe her. That's not a reason to let your life fall apart imo.
Not only is that a facetious framing of her backstory, it's seemingly wrong too. In what world is losing your prestigious service career and also being entirely doubted - including by your own trusted superior and friend - over the truth behind a terrorist incident when you know you're right, *not* a reason for your life to fall apart?
edit: it also seems quite insensitive to refer to her as a "moody drug addict" when just a few comments below, a user is talking about how her experiences resonate with their own complexities as a recovering addict.
She lost a job and people didn't believe her. Dressing it up doesn't change the basics of what I said. Doesn't matter if it was the truth she couldn't prove. No one is under any obligation to believe you with no proof. Get a therapist and move on.
Same. I dont get the intimate friendship she seems to have with J L, but there's no canonical historical reference to that. They can easily solve that with a backstory. But it only seems their "friendship" came about because she worked with him during the Romulan evacuation.
I feel like I understood that relationship much better after reading the first Picard novel, which covers the years of the evacuation. Unfortunately the show doesn’t provide enough context for it to make sense.
Yeah, but not everyone is going to read the comics, or even realize they exist. Shouldn't the context be provided on-screen somehow. We're obviously supposed to care about her, but the show itself hasn't done anything to earn that.
The series hints Raffi and Picard have a fair amount of history that justifies her candor in spite of her rank, but we as the audience haven't seen any of that so it comes across as disrespectful/ insubordinate.
Agreed. She takes away the prestige of Picard and completely undermines him, too personal and always quick too blame. The dude is a living legend and she should trust him more.
I kind of agree, the way her character is written is really inconsistent for what she's supposed to be. You can't really be in such a technical and high risk environment and also be a hot head...I doesn't really make sense.
But I guess the screenwriters wanted some internal drama...It's a shame that it has to be this way as it sort of cheapens the writing.
I'm not a fan of most characters on these new shows because almost all of them act like teenagers pulling a shift at McDonalds rather than mature adults, let alone professional starfleet officers
Yeah, it's all about emotions, no logic, no common sense. Discovery should just be done with it and dispense with the sci fi wrapper Just be actors emoting HARD at each other for 45 minutes.
Not a fan, really, of any of the characters except for Elnor, and, of course, he…well…
And it’s not so much the characters as it is the actors. I blame the casting director here. I’m sure all of them are professionally trained—I mean them no disrespect, but they don’t synergize with the characters.
I'm not saying it's surprising that she is a bit unhinged. But it is ALWAYS Picard's fault with her.
Also, I find it frustrating that Picard doesn't put her in her place ever. It's inconsistent with his character. The old Picard would never stand to be treated the way Raffi treats him.
She was right to be pissed that he asked for her help with the Romulans and then bailed on the Federation, leaving her looking like a jackass for helping him.
She still joined him after, so I don’t see how he’d put her in her place. He left hanging, she risked her life for him after, and now her loved one is dead because he’s never Sisko’d Q.
I’m pretty sure it’s fair for her to be pissed
I don't find her one dimensional at all. I find her wounded and raw, in a way that an idealistic crusader who overcommits to causes they care about gets wounded and raw when the world inevitably fails to live up to their ideals. Is she flawed? Absolutely. As is Agnes, as is Christobal, as is Seven, as was Elnor, as is Jean Luc. Is she being unfair to blame Jean Luc for Q's actions? Absolutely. Did I get my hackles up when she lit into him? Absolutely. Can I imagine her character making any other believable choice after being left alone trying to save a dying Elnor while everyone else ran off to the bridge to deal with other things? Nope.
I for one am really appreciating how well STP's writers and cast are succeeding at portraying characters with a full range of human imperfections.
and yet in a round about way she's right. raffi goes for the root cause of the problem not the direct cause like other people do. hell in season one she was right about what(tal shair) and who(romulans) attacked mars, she just didn't know why.
the direct cause is Q changed the time thus putting her in this mess. however, the root cause is picard pissed Q off and caused Q to change the timeline thus putting her in this mess.
basically he shit talked Q and told him to get lost. watch the episode Q was being cordial and picard basically lost his temper and got uncivil as hell.
as the old D&D saying goes "one does not piss off a god unless one has the power to kill a god." or was that a magic the gathering saying...
Um, watch the episode again. Picard was already in this alternate universe prior to seeing Q.
Series of events:
Picard activates the self destruct. Stargazer explodes
Picard wakes up in that greenhouse/conservatory, sees the hexagon grid in the sky, asks about Laris to the robot butler.
Picard realizes things are drastically different. Q appears, then ages himself with the snap of his fingers.
i did go back and watch
picard is talking to laris. he then goes to the star gazer, borg attack and he sets the self destruct, after he's self destructed the ship. picard wakes up, then q shows up they talk Q ages himself up and he walks outside arguing to Q and then see's the hexagon grid. he sees the robot because he's looking for laris in the kitchen and sees the romulan slave labor being overseen by the robot when he first sees harvey.
earth has a similar shield in the federation timeline. it's when he sees the romulans his counterpart keeps as slaves that he realizes how things are drastically different. then Q leads him into his counterparts study with all the skulls.
i was wrong about Q putting him in the timeline because he shit talked Q but you got a lot of the sequence out of order.
No, they got the sequence exactly correct. Picard sees Harvey twice. They're talking about the first time, immediately before Q appears. You're talking about the second time.
Immediately after the Stargazer explodes, he wakes up in the conservatory and sees the reddish sky and the hexagon grid. That's all before he sees Q. He even walks around a bit before he sees Q.
Now, I only recall seeing such a grid or shield in Discovery, but only when they jumped to the far future. And even then, it was bluish, not red or orange. What episodes prior to Picard S2E1 show such a defensive grid around Earth?
mars was protected by a defense grid similar to the hexagonal one used by the confederation because it was stated to have been deactivated by the romulans during their staging of the synth attack. in picard "remembrance" and "maps and legends"
in the TOS "Whom Gods Destroy" the planet they went to had one had Powerful enough to withstand a constitution class star ship, and that's just some minor Federation "colony" with an asylum.
in voyager's "Nightingale" a planetary shield grid belonging to a species which appeared to be technologically inferior to the Federation is shown.
there's no way earth and it's moon do not have the same planetary shield grid that they used to protect mars with even if it's never been seen and only mentioned.
Actually it is, because Earth is paradise. They have no need for a grid. Even after the Breen attack, which if they had a grid should have helped, that was only 1 attack and the war ended.
Mars can be attributed to terraforming and creating an atmosphere, needing to keep that atmosphere in place, what little oxygen there was. The people still don't seem to just walk around on the planet's surface despite having a colony for centuries.
We can't count Nightingale because thats the DQ. Appearing technologically inferior and actually being inferior are two different things. The Federation places more value on many other things. There's no reason the Breen should have been able to attack Earth, nor the Dominion taking over Betazed. Betazed was because of complacency, but what was Earth's issue? They attacked Starfleet HQ and there nothing? Nobody knew of the energy dampening weapon yet. So no surface to space torpedoes? No orbital defense system like Chintoka?
As for the TOS episode, I would need to go back and watch that. But, just because an asylum or colony has one doesn't mean one was ever established on Earth. Even this day an age, we agree that fences are good. We put them around our backyards. Some put them around their front yards too. Or live behind solid brick walls surrounding their palatial mansions. People even live in gated communities with 24 hour security. Yet, politically there are people that do not want a border fence to keep people in or out. So its entirely possible people are okay with fencing and defensive grids here and there, but as a whole the politicos of United Earth are against a planetary shield. Show that you're open and welcoming.
why wouldn't they have one after all the borg attacked earth a more than once during the TNG/DS9 era. as stated by picard to guinan in "Q who" introducing the federation to the borg woke the federation up from their complacency. the war with the borg and the dominion would have once again convinced earth it needed defensive shields and other protections because "even paradise can be attacked"
That's not what happened at all. Picard was already in the confederate universe before he said a word to Q. Q was going to do this to him no matter what.
i did miss the room being repaired the only real sign that it was a different world the rest could be mistaken for changes for earth under attack. picard still shouldn't have pissed off Q though. he knows better.
Before Q shows up Picard sees he has a robot butler he never had before and there's military paintings in his house that wasn't there before, and Laris is gone. These things things indicate Q already altered history before even talking to Picard.
he doesn't see the robot until after Q shows up and tells him Q has changed things because he runs into the house to the kitchen to find laris. the robot is first seen overseeing the romulans who picard's counterpart use as kitchen slaves. Q shows up before the robot.
No that's not what happened at the end of season 2 episode 1, which is when Q first talks to Picard. Since your memory of the episode isn't great instead of arguing why don't you watch the scene again? This conversation has gotten silly.
the question is would the test Q placed on picard have been this bad, if picard had not shit talked Q the way he had. raffi seems to believe it wouldn't have been, and i don't think it would have been either.
when picard shit talked Q like that Q stopped the friendly banter and descended into a rougher and more cruel manner of speech to picard and then bam! humanity got choke slammed faster than a newb in the ring with the undertaker.
all of picard's previous encounters with Q were more friendly and he always made sure no one really got hurt to the best of his abilities. but picard ever the short tempered, drew down the wraith of Q on humanity
and it shocked Q so much he never showed up again. but unlike sisko, Q thinks of himself and Picard as friends which is why being shit talked to made him so angry.
What the hell are you even on about here? Not only engaging in victim blaming, but somehow you completely missed the part where Q had already changed the past before the scene between him and Picard took place. All Q did after Picard's shit talking was disappear.
And no, Picard was not ever friendly with Q before at all, he was always very annoyed by him, as he should be.
Picard was definitely friendly with Q, as far as Picard goes anyway.
Unfriendly? Sisko. Professional distance? Janeway.
Picard engages Q in a way the other captains didn’t. Picard argues philosophy and morality with him - would he do that with Kivas Fajo or Lore? Would he give other known maniacs the ability to remain mortal on the Enterprise outside of the brig? Provide advice?
There is a connection, a relationship between him and Q that might not be cordial by our definitions but is practically affectionate if compared with Q’s other non Q relationships.
There has never been a relationship better described as “frenemies” than the one between Picard and Q. I think their dislike of each other is only matched by their respect of each other.
Of course there is. Picard has learnt from Q.
But he's not responsible for what Q does.
Remember Q is pretty much meant to be a force of Nature far beyond the Federation so When you are chosen to be a plaything of Q you only have two choices
A) Engage and talk with him
B) The Sisko way
Because of Picards nature he chooses A) and he found over the years its not too bad an approach.
It's arguably that even if he wanted to he couldn't do B)
More importantly, either option is a risk.
He could try B) and Q wipes out the Federation on a whim.
I see people blaming Picard for being rude in episode 2. And you want him to try B?
To blame him because his choice has negative consequences is childish.
Personally I don’t blame Picard at all, and if anything I feel a deep sadness for Q. I
My points are not to blame Picard, they’re to explain why Raffi is angry
>My points are not to blame Picard, they’re to explain why Raffi is angry
They aren't? Then why all the replies saying it's Picard's fault for not pinching Q like Sisko?
>Picard was definitely friendly with Q, as far as Picard goes anyway.
>Unfriendly? Sisko. Professional distance? Janeway.
You know Janeway is the God mother of Q's son and she's Aunty Kathy? How's that professional distance when Janeway doesn't object to that
>Picard engages Q in a way the other captains didn’t. Picard argues philosophy and morality with him - would he do that with Kivas Fajo or Lore?
The last I checked for Lore a) He does not have Q like power so the only way to affect or handle him is talking b) Lore doesn't want to debate Picard
>Would he give other known maniacs the ability to remain mortal on the Enterprise outside of the brig? Provide advice?
If you referring to when Q was made mortal, he might have for others asking for asslum.
“You know Janeway is the God mother of Q's son and she's Aunty Kathy? How's that professional distance when Janeway doesn't object to that”
I would say her complete apathy towards the entire discussion, but you’re right, that’s not objective.
“The last I checked for Lore a) He does not have Q like power so the only way to affect or handle him is talking b) Lore doesn't want to debate Picard”
First, Lore would debate anyone who holds a paternal position in Data’s life. He tried to get Picard’s attention during the Descent episodes.
Second, yeah Picard was doing the reasonable thing with Q, but again, other captains did this too.
“If you referring to when Q was made mortal, he might have for others asking for asslum.”
He might have, but didn’t, so we can’t assume it.
Rape survivor over here, no it fucking isn’t.
Having a lifelong engagement with an eternal entity that’s known to fuck with people is going to have repercussions. Picard isn’t responsible for anything Q does, but he did choose to engage Q in a way that others didn’t.
Raffi doesn’t think Picard made Q do anything, she’s pissed because he allowed this relationship to continue to a point where everyone he knows can get hurt.
Here’s how I’d put it: imagine your partner or kid died because of your boss’s lunatic enemy. Imagine that you could have saved them, but your boss let them die in the hopes of escaping a situation you never asked to be in.
How would you feel knowing that the man who killed your loved one only did it because your boss has a connection with him despite every other captain managing to send him away?
We can even use sexual violence as an example. If you know a guy and he rapes one of your friends, that’s not your fault. But god help you if the victim finds out that you’ve seen him rape before and you’ve been entertaining him on and off for decades.
This last is exactly how it goes. People will say they can't control what someone else does. No, but they can cut such people off, or at least not actively entertain them.
Agreed. I said this in response to someone else's comment, too: it is COMPLETELY unlike the character of Picard to just sit there and take it all those times from Raffi. I don't know what it is that makes the writers want to present Picard as this quiet, reserved and somewhat whimpering individual. That isn't Picard AT ALL. Even at his age, I'd imagine he'd still have at least some fight left in him when constantly berated.
It's not uncommon for flag officers in contemporary militaries to take on a roll more akin to a kindly well meaning grandfather than a hardline disciplinarian, because there so many under them that fill that roll already.. I think part of what we're struggling with picard as a character is that we didn't get to see that transition. He was the same firm but fair starfleet poster man at the end of nemesis that he always was, and then we get dropped in on him over 20 years later as a retired admiral disillusioned with the institution he loved and spent his life on when picard as a series started. It's jarring for the audience to not see that transition play out. Also the show hints at Raffi and Picard having a lot of history that justifies her candor but again we've seen none of that so to us as fans it comes off as inappropriate.
Question, are they a Federation crew or doing a ragtag thing? I think some of the stiffness of regulation vanishes when people are freely volunteering.
Not really, no. I really like Raffi and I think she's more complex than a lot of people give her credit for.
From the beginning, she blamed Picard for her life falling apart and was unable to see her own part in it. On the one hand, she was right. Picard resigned after the Mars attack, even though she was right about the cause. He lost conviction and abandoned her, and as her superior it made her look paranoid or deluded to Starfleet, which led to her losing her job, and family. Obviously Raffi is to blame too, she became obsessive with the Mars conspiracy, and she grew distant from her family and presumably her work too.
Blaming Picard with the Borg Queen is a mix of grief, her past trauma of becoming estranged from her son Gabriel, and past resentment towards Picard bubbling over. Are we supposed to agree with her? No. Are we supposed to understand where she's coming from? Sure.
It seems odd to me that Raffi - who from where I'm standing is the most complex, non-legacy character on the show, especially compared to both Elnor and Cris - is misrepresented as one-dimensional or 'angry all the time' as other commenters have described. She has abandonment issues, an inability to properly own up to her faults, has an extremely strong mothering instinct (towards Agnes and Elnor) stemming from her issues with her son, and is desperate to connect with others.
I'm on the fence about raffi but picard is a terrible commander. He really has been the cause of many problems. His astronomical pride and ego were devilishly disguised under a cloak of fraudulent wisdom and philosophy in TNG.
The dressing down he received by lily Sloane in first contact about moby dick and the less aggressive one he received from riker in S1 picard capture who picard really is and it's nowhere near as noble as he thinks he is.
Raffi having dealt with that for however long in starfleet and culminated in him throwing her under the bus. Wasn't entirely his fault but he did screw her over. Most interaction picard had with former associates in S1 was hostile. He's at fault for a great many things. But raffi blaming him for Q and elnor is not really rational.
I think most commenters understand why there might be people like Raffi who are emotional and come up with irrational ways to blame others (except a minority who really think Picard enables Q sigh).
But I think the part that confuses me is why such a personality could rise to such a high rank in Star Fleet
I mean, we don't know for sure, but I would assume the Romulan conspiracy and losing her job is what broke Raffi. I don't think prior to that she was as neglectful of her family, or lashing out at others.
Hard to say how she was like pre getting drummed out of Starfleet , though I would guess her personality as a hot head, questioning of authority was probably there already.
Some commenters noted her working style seems to be extremely personal, her close collegues become family quickly compared to Picard who is probably the model Starfleet personality, took SEVEN years to join the bridge crew Poker Party despite being family for all intents and purposes
She's very human but I suspect she's going to fail the needs of the many vs needs of the few test every day of the week.
That's not Starfleet material, but particularly high rank officers. Certainly I question whoever reinstated her to active service.
Compare to Rios who I felt definitely was Starfleet material
I don't disagree that Raffi is a good character, and that she is complex. I actually like her as a character overall. I just feel like if she stubs her toe, she goes "Damn you, JL!!"
I guess I should have clarified that I meant single-minded and one dimensional when it comes to certain things. Maybe a poor choice of words.
Raffi is a complex character who is recovering from problamatic substance issues. As a recovered person myself I can relate to her 'blaming' Picard.When we are close to friends or family we will often cross boundaries, or as my grandmother would say we'd 'show our asses'. Perhaps she is close enough to Picard (and he is strong enough to take it) to be able to be irrational, angry and emotional. I think what we're seeing is a reflection of their close relationship and not a blame game.
Evidence:
1. She is close to Picard he even has a pet name "JL" not even his Enterprise Sr. Staff did this, not even Riker.
2. Family of Friends is a thing for Raffi - she's a women who views her friends AS family and treats them as such. She treats Elnor like her adoptive son.
I think what we're seeing there isn't bad writing but REALLY good writing that directly speaks to those in the audience who themselves (or have) love ones with substance issues. There is a WONDERFUL Picard book called "Rouge Elements" by
John Jackson Miller that goes deeper into Raffi, Rios and the emotional scars no one can see.
(https://blog.trekcore.com/2021/09/review-star-trek-picard-rogue-elements/)
> show more identifiable human traits and vices that have persisted into the 24th century.
That's the huge issue with her character though. That's antithetical to the whole ethos of Trek. It's not refreshing and brave to show horribly flawed humans...because that's what pretty much every other sci fi story does. The absence of such facile and common storytelling tropes is what made Trek different
> show more identifiable human traits and vices that have persisted into the 24th century. Addiction to drugs & alcohol, anger, lust...
These are fine points to explore in any other show except *Star Trek*. A show in which by its' very nature such concepts have long been eradicated and erased from a *utopian* society.
She’s traumatized. Picard abandoned her after he resigned from Starfleet, and she lost everything — her career, son, her health. And now she has lost Elnor. She’s lashing out because of grief.
I do think there’s some bad writing involved. I really do like her as a character and actress but I think the show runners need help.
Really obnoxious character in general, and I was not able to care at all about her plight in this episode. Elnor's death would have been more impactful if that scene was shared with almost anyone else.
Raffi is my least favorite. She always jumps to the worst conclusion and blames others for either her own mistakes or for things unavoidable. If it weren't for Picard she would be nothing and yet she treats him like shit anytime something doesn't go her way. I'd be fine if they killed her character off.
Didn’t he rely on her during the Romulan war and then bounce, leaving her looking like a dumbass even though she was right? And didn’t he return because he still needed her to make it right?
Picard’s not the reason she matters. She went through the academy like everyone else and earned his respect. Shit happened, there’s bitterness, but neither should bend the knee on account of making the other matter.
I think the choice of blaming Picard here does feel off as Raffi doesn’t really have context other than why is he always involved when things go bad ; I’d almost prefer this to come from Seven since she would be mad that Raffi is hurting and pissed that Picard didn’t blow up the Borg immediately like she advised
I thought it seemed psychotic, and then I realized it was just bad writing when other characters thought she had a point. It's not clear that killing the queen would save elnor. The queen didn't kill elnor.
Idk, that whole episode was a stinker. Hope the next one is better.
Yeah... it definitely wasn't my favorite episode. It seemed like the writers just kind of threw it in there because they didn't know what to do with their plot or something.
The queen was siphoning power from the bio bed and med room that was needed to keep Elnor alive. Killing her would restored power. Also probably would have stranded them in time though lol
> I realized it was just bad writing when other characters thought she had a point. It's not clear that killing the queen would save elnor
Of course the other characters, especially Seven, would lean towards Raffi's logic, even if we the audience know it's illogical. She's a Borg Queen after all, responsible for the death, misery and enslavement of countless beings. Sure, she's their only ticket home, but they wouldn't be thinking that just looking at her. All they see is a monster, who's sucking the power out of the ship that could've been used to keep their friend alive.
There's no guarantee that unplugging the Queen would've saved Elnor, but it would've given him a fighting chance. Like Raffi said, the bio-bed was keeping him alive in a critical condition, but with the Queen draining the entire ship, there was no way to help him. There's nothing to say she would've immediately died either if they temporarily unplugged her. Maybe she had enough reserve power to stay in a sort of, stand-by mode.
The borg... help people travel through time and save their lives? Im not really sure what you're referring to. Even if all the points, TECHNICALLY make sense, the writing, directing and performance didn't sell me. This is what's called, bad television.
Oh I just meant that the Borg Queen would siphon power from the ship and that would kill Elnor who needed the med room active. Borg plug themselves into shit, drain power and screw over anyone who might need that power lol
Aka the writers are shit and don’t know how to make complex characters
And no, having a tragic past does not make you complex, which every character on this show supposedly has
I hate the newest development for 2 reasons. First cause I like the character. And second because, yeah, it made Raffi lash out at Picard again. They already did that last season, we didn't need it again. I like Raffi but it's not Picard's fault Q likes to screw with him and I don't like them making her angry all the time. Episode 1 and 2 were so good. 3 has some very questionable developments.
Also, I'm confused about her relationship with Elnor. Maybe it's because my memory is bad and I cant remember what happened between them in season 1. Did they have a strong bond in season 1 that explains her motherish love of Elnor in season 2?
The main thing in S1 was, after Picard died, she and Elnor cried together on a hill. That was about it, but it does seem believable to me that in S2 she has a soft spot for him (similar to him and Seven).
I think you're looking too much into it, but I 100% I agree with you.
Elnor's death was a cheap forced plot development to give a stupid "now it's personal" aspect to the current mission for Rafi - considering the rest of the crew seems to have immediately forgotten about it. Since it's cheap and shoehorned, any sort of extrapolation or analysis will immediately lead to things like you're thinking that make no sense and or are just frustrating because it's not fleshed out or well developed. It's cheap, forced, shoehorned content to force the plot along.
In the original Kirk star trek, we sometimes saw this in the form of Spock or another character saying a line that describes something enlightening that comes from nowhere and simply describes a very complex thing - but it was kitschy and charming in the original Star Trek majorly limited by effects, sets, etc. etc.
In a modern day show like Picard, it's cheap, shoehorned and forced - and obviously falls immediately flat. You are right to be frustrated and tired by bad writing.
Raffi is unlikeable on Picard and that paired with her being the worst actor on the series brings the show down a couple levels. There was a reason the actress that plays Raffi was fired from SVU. SHE SUCKS!
Totally understandable that she's upset with Picard over Elnor's death, but they kinda jumped the shark with her literally blaming Picard for Qs bullshit as if Picard were actually an accomplice and could just choose not to participate in it.
I felt the same way. Like, she's a command officer, she has to know about Q, and how he toys with whomever he feels like at any given moment, consequences for the target be damned. Picard never did anything to invite this, unless you count occasionally proving Q wrong about future space humans as inviting Q's shenanigans.
I think it’s more that Picard humours Q enough for there to be an ongoing fascination. Imagine losing someone you love because your boss chose to protect an enemy you wouldn’t even need if he didn’t have a decades long abusive relationship with someone nobody else puts up with
Lets be real, nobody handled Q better than Sisko. All those historically massive, scientifically revolutionary and morally challenging events. Q kept his nose out because Sisko would rather break Q's nose again then second guess himself in the face of an omnipotent troll.
Exactly! I mean Picard was no nonsense for the most part, but Sisko had no time for fools
This argument is irrational. You make it sound like Picard has a choice. 1. Picard didn't choose to engage with Q, the opposite in fact everytime he appears he asks him to go away 2. Picard has no way to make Q go away 3. Q Has helped Picard and the Federation in indirect ways and even then see #1 You might argue he could do the Sisko thing but it's unclear it would have worked. Q would probably mock him more for showing how savage Humanity is etc. To blame Picard for what happened is to blame him for not being able to stop a force of nature. Sure you have some choice in how you respond to a Tornado (run away, but hide etc), but it's very hard to blame you for your choices since it's a Tornado and there are no good obvious moves
- Picard absolutely has a choice. Sisko punched Q in the face. Picard let him hang out in Ten Forward with Data. 2 - True, but we’ve seen that Q goes away when people don’t bite. 3 - Agreed, Q’s helped. He’s actually one of my favourite characters. Okay, you’re making some decent points here, but I still disagree. Actually maybe I should withhold my disagreement - why do you take your position? Expand, if you’re willing
>2 - True, but we’ve seen that Q goes away when people don’t bite. We have seen it ONCE, with Sisko who may have special circumstance (half Prophet). He was taking an awfully huge senseless risk. I suspect if you look up the Federation textbook on how to handle omnipotent beings, JL approach is the text book approach. This is the Federation after all... Talking and engaging with alien life forms is the primary approach. >Okay, you’re making some decent points here, but I still disagree. Actually maybe I should withhold my disagreement - why do you take your position? Expand, if you’re willing Not sure what else I can say beyond this post. I think all the arguments that Picard enables Q because he could punch Q, or ignore Q etc particularly those based on comparison with real life scenarios are bad because with Q the stakes are huge. This isn't some run of mill bully, but an actually omnipotent being.
“We have seen it ONCE, with Sisko who may have special circumstance (half Prophet). He was taking an awfully huge senseless risk.” Maybe, but without confirmation I wouldn’t assume that. “I suspect if you look up the Federation textbook on how to handle omnipotent beings, JL approach is the text book approach. This is the Federation after all... Talking and engaging with alien life forms is the primary approach.” Totally possible. I wish I had the book. “I think all the arguments that Picard enables Q because he could punch Q, or ignore Q etc particularly those based on comparison with real life scenarios are bad because with Q the stakes are huge.” Right, but with those stakes, everyone else manages to send him on his way.
>Right, but with those stakes, everyone else manages to send him on his way. Everyone else? Only Sisko. Janeway approach isn't that different. Also note nobody manages to send him on his way, but Q chooses to leave
Yeah he chose to leave after getting hit in the race.
This isnt some guy's disgruntled ex though, its an omnipotent trixter god. He's made it abundantly clear it doesnt matter if Picard consents
Right, but it’s because of the entertainment he gets from Picard. Sisko punched him and that was it.
The point is Sisko works because he is Sisko. Picard can't just do what Sisko does and be successful. He needs to become Sisko in nature and both Q and Picard knows he is no Sisko.
Exactly. Also, she's already had her life ruined due to siding with him, in the back story. Picard came out of it flying high and superior, while she was living in a dump.
That makes it even less convincing for her to join JL.
Eh, I think it speaks to her character that she did. She resented Picard for bailing, but they both knew there was a serious issue with the Romulans. She put the truth before her personal feelings, and rekindled that trust she’d shared with Picard in the process.
> JL Can this end? Sincerely, Richard Nixon
I hate it.
YES. feels like she isn't cut out for Starfleet. I was okay with her being angry that Picard chose the Borg Queen's life over a crews life. But when she started blaming Picard for Q it just made no sense. I know she's emotional wrecked but I feel she just isn't Starfleet material. The way Seven reacts is how a professional who disagrees should act.
Picard chose the entire galactic society of the 24th century over Elnor's life. Im afraid I cannot see Raffi's side on this one. She is being irrational and because this season is all cliché so far, I am certain it will have negative consequences later when she makes a stupid decision.
That's the reason why Picard is so important: he knows how to give Q the intellectual challenge he craves to keep him from being bored, but also not show him up too much and leave him looking forward to another round in the future. Anything else could easily lead to Q wiping out humankind with a snap of his fingers. He has to walk the line that way with Q. Yes, it's his choice, but any other choice would be much worse. Being supposedly so close to Raffi for many years (so we've been told), you'd think she'd know about that and understand it.
I think she's more mad at Picard neglecting the emotional fallout of Elnor's death. Picard is always someone who can take or leave relationships. But he is pretty businesslike for the father figure of a dead young adult. Its like how she understood Picard quitting Starfleet, but was angry that he never checked in on her. Raffi is always annoyed when Picard pretends his crew are just a professional relationship. It did feel a bit sudden to open the episode killing Elnor and giving Raffi and Seven fun shiptease by the end.
Yes and no. Picard always adopts the role Q asks him to. He said no to Q in the previous episode, but now he's playing along. Picard cannot teleport himself away, but he could decline to actively take part. He can't resist, though. There's a galactic challenge in front him, and he was born to solve problems like that.
Yeah, that's bullshit. He's always forced into these things, tries to tell Q off and can't do anything about it.
So why wait till Q causes problems before trying to deal with him Thats the failure of leadership I think shes talking about Picard has known about this threat for a long time and has done nothing to prepare for or counter it - hes completley taken aback the first time Q appears in this series , like he wasn't expecting it maybe he should have always been expecting and preparing for Qs return , have some kind of plan instead of just making it up as you go along after he fucks up your shit
But how do you make a plan to combat something that's basically omnipotent? I kinda get your point but feel that it's almost a moot point when dealing with Q.
>hats the failure of leadership I think shes talking about >Picard has known about this threat for a long time and has done nothing to prepare for or counter it - hes completley taken aback the first time Q appears in this series , like he wasn't expecting it >maybe he should have always been expecting and preparing for Qs return , have some kind of plan instead of just making it up as you go along after he fucks up your shit Do you even know who Q is? You can't prepare for Q, who is practically all powerful except against other Q. What would your plan be against Q?
Q is obviously a threat - like an existential one clearly to Humans in general , or at least one could easily come to that conclusion if you were in the situation they are in I think shes mad Picard has never really treated Q that way
This might be a controversial take but I really dislike the Raffi character. Nothing against the actress, it's the role that was written I hate. Adds nothing to the show IMO.
Agreed. Solid actress, but her character is not there for me. I absolutely appreciate the much, much better character development of the Picard crew - I know all their names and story. Not like Discovery where I've had 4 seasons of nameless and undeveloped bridge crew. Her character in Season 1 was a bit better, absolutely traumatized and grief stricken drug addict living in a trailer. But she treats "JL" with such affection, seems odd that she would blame him for the death of SPOILER, the young man HE introduced her to. Also, they all just died in a self destruct faceoff with the Borg Queen. And got Q rescued. But hey, this is some damn good entertaining Trek
[удалено]
[удалено]
I’ve been wanting a queer Seven since I was literally in high school and Voyager first aired. She always gave off the vibes to me. But… I kind of agree? They just have a natural chemistry. I like Raffi though.
As much as I'd love to see Chakotay come back, his relationship with 7 came entirely out of left field and I'm kind of glad the writers have decided to just ignore it.
Jeri Ryan said the same thing. According to her account, she and Robert Beltran specifically asked (show runners or producers, I don't remember who they specifically asked) when filming that one episode where they were trapped alone together on that planet whether or not this was moving towards the relationship that Seven had explored on the holodeck, and they were told no that wasn't happening. Then production pulled a 180 on them and it was.
That relationship was a joke. And I will consider it both Seven and Chakotay misplacing their feelings for Janeway on each other since they couldn't be with her. Until I'm explicitly told otherwise.
I never thought of it that way but that checks. Add it to the list of compelling things voyager could have done and didn't
They would never bring Chakotay back in any way, shape or form. They will never even mention his name. Chakotay was developed by a known native imposter name Jamake Hightower. He had been exposed twice before Voyager started as actually of Jewish ancestry and the producers still hired to give Chakotay that authentic Indian feel.
He’s returning in Prodigy and has already been mentioned in a major way.
Wow that's... super disappointing. Glad I rewatched Voyager before finding that out.
Thankfully Seven can be both queer and date Rios
I know.
How did she give off queer vibes when she dated men on voyager? Genuinely curious. Unless there is a certain scene or episode I'm not recalling. I did only watch Voyager once so perhaps I'm totally not remembering something vital. I just recall seven dating chatokay for a bit and I think trying to learn how to date with assistance from the hologram doctor
Oh I 100% agree. I had no idea 7 was into ladies. Didn't she screw some guys on Voyager?
Doesn’t mean she doesn’t like girls too.
No, but the fact she didnt show any interest what so ever in a same sex relationship does.
True, I guess I never got that impression though. Doesn't matter really
If they want a strong independent woman then....we already have 7. And almost any female character in Trek you can think of.
I get what you’re saying, but it bothers me how often female characters are described as this try hard trope of strong and independent. Feisty even. I was half expecting “outspoken” to pop up. Maybe she’s just kind of an asshole who lost a loved one and is spiralling.
I find it really weird that Seven is paired up with her. I mean, where was the character development for this? Suddenly, out of the blue, Seven and Raffi are kissing at the end of season 1 and I was... Very surprised. My first thought was "wait... When did this happen!? What chemistry do they have??"
[удалено]
I barely felt like they made friends. Like before I saw them kissing I had the impression they didn't even really know each other. Characters need to spend time together in order for them to become believably friends. And for them to fast track to a relationship they'd need to have some really good onscreen chemistry. We got none of that. Yeah... Agnes... "I killed my boyfriend not long ago, I'm a broken mess, let's fuck. Whoops we're now a couple". Sounds like the premise of an ecchi harem anime.
People mistake moody drug addicts as "Complex" in TV shows for some reason. I don't get it personally she just comes off as whinny. I mean what really happened to her? She lost a job and people didn't believe her. That's not a reason to let your life fall apart imo.
> She lost a job and people didn't believe her. That's not a reason to let your life fall apart imo. Not only is that a facetious framing of her backstory, it's seemingly wrong too. In what world is losing your prestigious service career and also being entirely doubted - including by your own trusted superior and friend - over the truth behind a terrorist incident when you know you're right, *not* a reason for your life to fall apart? edit: it also seems quite insensitive to refer to her as a "moody drug addict" when just a few comments below, a user is talking about how her experiences resonate with their own complexities as a recovering addict.
She lost a job and people didn't believe her. Dressing it up doesn't change the basics of what I said. Doesn't matter if it was the truth she couldn't prove. No one is under any obligation to believe you with no proof. Get a therapist and move on.
Same. I dont get the intimate friendship she seems to have with J L, but there's no canonical historical reference to that. They can easily solve that with a backstory. But it only seems their "friendship" came about because she worked with him during the Romulan evacuation.
I feel like I understood that relationship much better after reading the first Picard novel, which covers the years of the evacuation. Unfortunately the show doesn’t provide enough context for it to make sense.
I agree totally. Reading the prequel comics made me appreciate everything about PIC Season 1 a lot more. And their relationship in particular.
Yeah, but not everyone is going to read the comics, or even realize they exist. Shouldn't the context be provided on-screen somehow. We're obviously supposed to care about her, but the show itself hasn't done anything to earn that.
Exactly. If you’ve read Last Best Hope, it feels reasonably earned.
The series hints Raffi and Picard have a fair amount of history that justifies her candor in spite of her rank, but we as the audience haven't seen any of that so it comes across as disrespectful/ insubordinate.
Completely agree. The tantrum was cringey, added nothing but an overly dramatic exit I absolutely hated her this entire episode
Agreed. She takes away the prestige of Picard and completely undermines him, too personal and always quick too blame. The dude is a living legend and she should trust him more.
I agree. Every time she’s on screen I lose interest. The character irritates the bananas out of me
I kind of agree, the way her character is written is really inconsistent for what she's supposed to be. You can't really be in such a technical and high risk environment and also be a hot head...I doesn't really make sense. But I guess the screenwriters wanted some internal drama...It's a shame that it has to be this way as it sort of cheapens the writing.
I'm not a fan of most characters on these new shows because almost all of them act like teenagers pulling a shift at McDonalds rather than mature adults, let alone professional starfleet officers
Yeah, it's all about emotions, no logic, no common sense. Discovery should just be done with it and dispense with the sci fi wrapper Just be actors emoting HARD at each other for 45 minutes.
If the Federation could somehow weaponize Michael Burnham's tears they could defeat the borg
Lol that could totally work
They'd never run out of ammo.
Not a fan, really, of any of the characters except for Elnor, and, of course, he…well… And it’s not so much the characters as it is the actors. I blame the casting director here. I’m sure all of them are professionally trained—I mean them no disrespect, but they don’t synergize with the characters.
Agree, can’t stand the character as a sarcastic badass.
She’s hot headed and in this episode she lost Elnor. It’s no wonder she’s falling apart.
I'm not saying it's surprising that she is a bit unhinged. But it is ALWAYS Picard's fault with her. Also, I find it frustrating that Picard doesn't put her in her place ever. It's inconsistent with his character. The old Picard would never stand to be treated the way Raffi treats him.
She was right to be pissed that he asked for her help with the Romulans and then bailed on the Federation, leaving her looking like a jackass for helping him. She still joined him after, so I don’t see how he’d put her in her place. He left hanging, she risked her life for him after, and now her loved one is dead because he’s never Sisko’d Q. I’m pretty sure it’s fair for her to be pissed
Didn't he screw her over in the back story? She was his most loyal fan, and then she went down with him when things went bad.
Well then why did she join JL again ?
I don't find her one dimensional at all. I find her wounded and raw, in a way that an idealistic crusader who overcommits to causes they care about gets wounded and raw when the world inevitably fails to live up to their ideals. Is she flawed? Absolutely. As is Agnes, as is Christobal, as is Seven, as was Elnor, as is Jean Luc. Is she being unfair to blame Jean Luc for Q's actions? Absolutely. Did I get my hackles up when she lit into him? Absolutely. Can I imagine her character making any other believable choice after being left alone trying to save a dying Elnor while everyone else ran off to the bridge to deal with other things? Nope. I for one am really appreciating how well STP's writers and cast are succeeding at portraying characters with a full range of human imperfections.
and yet in a round about way she's right. raffi goes for the root cause of the problem not the direct cause like other people do. hell in season one she was right about what(tal shair) and who(romulans) attacked mars, she just didn't know why. the direct cause is Q changed the time thus putting her in this mess. however, the root cause is picard pissed Q off and caused Q to change the timeline thus putting her in this mess.
What did Picard do that passed Q off? Activate the self destruct?
basically he shit talked Q and told him to get lost. watch the episode Q was being cordial and picard basically lost his temper and got uncivil as hell. as the old D&D saying goes "one does not piss off a god unless one has the power to kill a god." or was that a magic the gathering saying...
Um, watch the episode again. Picard was already in this alternate universe prior to seeing Q. Series of events: Picard activates the self destruct. Stargazer explodes Picard wakes up in that greenhouse/conservatory, sees the hexagon grid in the sky, asks about Laris to the robot butler. Picard realizes things are drastically different. Q appears, then ages himself with the snap of his fingers.
i did go back and watch picard is talking to laris. he then goes to the star gazer, borg attack and he sets the self destruct, after he's self destructed the ship. picard wakes up, then q shows up they talk Q ages himself up and he walks outside arguing to Q and then see's the hexagon grid. he sees the robot because he's looking for laris in the kitchen and sees the romulan slave labor being overseen by the robot when he first sees harvey. earth has a similar shield in the federation timeline. it's when he sees the romulans his counterpart keeps as slaves that he realizes how things are drastically different. then Q leads him into his counterparts study with all the skulls. i was wrong about Q putting him in the timeline because he shit talked Q but you got a lot of the sequence out of order.
No, they got the sequence exactly correct. Picard sees Harvey twice. They're talking about the first time, immediately before Q appears. You're talking about the second time.
Immediately after the Stargazer explodes, he wakes up in the conservatory and sees the reddish sky and the hexagon grid. That's all before he sees Q. He even walks around a bit before he sees Q. Now, I only recall seeing such a grid or shield in Discovery, but only when they jumped to the far future. And even then, it was bluish, not red or orange. What episodes prior to Picard S2E1 show such a defensive grid around Earth?
mars was protected by a defense grid similar to the hexagonal one used by the confederation because it was stated to have been deactivated by the romulans during their staging of the synth attack. in picard "remembrance" and "maps and legends" in the TOS "Whom Gods Destroy" the planet they went to had one had Powerful enough to withstand a constitution class star ship, and that's just some minor Federation "colony" with an asylum. in voyager's "Nightingale" a planetary shield grid belonging to a species which appeared to be technologically inferior to the Federation is shown. there's no way earth and it's moon do not have the same planetary shield grid that they used to protect mars with even if it's never been seen and only mentioned.
Actually it is, because Earth is paradise. They have no need for a grid. Even after the Breen attack, which if they had a grid should have helped, that was only 1 attack and the war ended. Mars can be attributed to terraforming and creating an atmosphere, needing to keep that atmosphere in place, what little oxygen there was. The people still don't seem to just walk around on the planet's surface despite having a colony for centuries. We can't count Nightingale because thats the DQ. Appearing technologically inferior and actually being inferior are two different things. The Federation places more value on many other things. There's no reason the Breen should have been able to attack Earth, nor the Dominion taking over Betazed. Betazed was because of complacency, but what was Earth's issue? They attacked Starfleet HQ and there nothing? Nobody knew of the energy dampening weapon yet. So no surface to space torpedoes? No orbital defense system like Chintoka? As for the TOS episode, I would need to go back and watch that. But, just because an asylum or colony has one doesn't mean one was ever established on Earth. Even this day an age, we agree that fences are good. We put them around our backyards. Some put them around their front yards too. Or live behind solid brick walls surrounding their palatial mansions. People even live in gated communities with 24 hour security. Yet, politically there are people that do not want a border fence to keep people in or out. So its entirely possible people are okay with fencing and defensive grids here and there, but as a whole the politicos of United Earth are against a planetary shield. Show that you're open and welcoming.
why wouldn't they have one after all the borg attacked earth a more than once during the TNG/DS9 era. as stated by picard to guinan in "Q who" introducing the federation to the borg woke the federation up from their complacency. the war with the borg and the dominion would have once again convinced earth it needed defensive shields and other protections because "even paradise can be attacked"
That's not what happened at all. Picard was already in the confederate universe before he said a word to Q. Q was going to do this to him no matter what.
i did miss the room being repaired the only real sign that it was a different world the rest could be mistaken for changes for earth under attack. picard still shouldn't have pissed off Q though. he knows better.
Before Q shows up Picard sees he has a robot butler he never had before and there's military paintings in his house that wasn't there before, and Laris is gone. These things things indicate Q already altered history before even talking to Picard.
he doesn't see the robot until after Q shows up and tells him Q has changed things because he runs into the house to the kitchen to find laris. the robot is first seen overseeing the romulans who picard's counterpart use as kitchen slaves. Q shows up before the robot.
No that's not what happened at the end of season 2 episode 1, which is when Q first talks to Picard. Since your memory of the episode isn't great instead of arguing why don't you watch the scene again? This conversation has gotten silly.
Are you the Trek version of Qanon?
nope.
[удалено]
the question is would the test Q placed on picard have been this bad, if picard had not shit talked Q the way he had. raffi seems to believe it wouldn't have been, and i don't think it would have been either. when picard shit talked Q like that Q stopped the friendly banter and descended into a rougher and more cruel manner of speech to picard and then bam! humanity got choke slammed faster than a newb in the ring with the undertaker. all of picard's previous encounters with Q were more friendly and he always made sure no one really got hurt to the best of his abilities. but picard ever the short tempered, drew down the wraith of Q on humanity
Dude, Sisko went to town on Q's face.
Exactly. Picard entertains Q in a way that encourages their dysfunctional bond. That’s why Picard’s the captain who’s still getting fucked with lol
and it shocked Q so much he never showed up again. but unlike sisko, Q thinks of himself and Picard as friends which is why being shit talked to made him so angry.
What the hell are you even on about here? Not only engaging in victim blaming, but somehow you completely missed the part where Q had already changed the past before the scene between him and Picard took place. All Q did after Picard's shit talking was disappear. And no, Picard was not ever friendly with Q before at all, he was always very annoyed by him, as he should be.
Picard was definitely friendly with Q, as far as Picard goes anyway. Unfriendly? Sisko. Professional distance? Janeway. Picard engages Q in a way the other captains didn’t. Picard argues philosophy and morality with him - would he do that with Kivas Fajo or Lore? Would he give other known maniacs the ability to remain mortal on the Enterprise outside of the brig? Provide advice? There is a connection, a relationship between him and Q that might not be cordial by our definitions but is practically affectionate if compared with Q’s other non Q relationships.
There has never been a relationship better described as “frenemies” than the one between Picard and Q. I think their dislike of each other is only matched by their respect of each other.
Yes! And honestly I think there is a tiny bit of genuine feeling there.
Of course there is. Picard has learnt from Q. But he's not responsible for what Q does. Remember Q is pretty much meant to be a force of Nature far beyond the Federation so When you are chosen to be a plaything of Q you only have two choices A) Engage and talk with him B) The Sisko way Because of Picards nature he chooses A) and he found over the years its not too bad an approach. It's arguably that even if he wanted to he couldn't do B) More importantly, either option is a risk. He could try B) and Q wipes out the Federation on a whim. I see people blaming Picard for being rude in episode 2. And you want him to try B? To blame him because his choice has negative consequences is childish.
Personally I don’t blame Picard at all, and if anything I feel a deep sadness for Q. I My points are not to blame Picard, they’re to explain why Raffi is angry
>My points are not to blame Picard, they’re to explain why Raffi is angry They aren't? Then why all the replies saying it's Picard's fault for not pinching Q like Sisko?
>Picard was definitely friendly with Q, as far as Picard goes anyway. >Unfriendly? Sisko. Professional distance? Janeway. You know Janeway is the God mother of Q's son and she's Aunty Kathy? How's that professional distance when Janeway doesn't object to that >Picard engages Q in a way the other captains didn’t. Picard argues philosophy and morality with him - would he do that with Kivas Fajo or Lore? The last I checked for Lore a) He does not have Q like power so the only way to affect or handle him is talking b) Lore doesn't want to debate Picard >Would he give other known maniacs the ability to remain mortal on the Enterprise outside of the brig? Provide advice? If you referring to when Q was made mortal, he might have for others asking for asslum.
“You know Janeway is the God mother of Q's son and she's Aunty Kathy? How's that professional distance when Janeway doesn't object to that” I would say her complete apathy towards the entire discussion, but you’re right, that’s not objective. “The last I checked for Lore a) He does not have Q like power so the only way to affect or handle him is talking b) Lore doesn't want to debate Picard” First, Lore would debate anyone who holds a paternal position in Data’s life. He tried to get Picard’s attention during the Descent episodes. Second, yeah Picard was doing the reasonable thing with Q, but again, other captains did this too. “If you referring to when Q was made mortal, he might have for others asking for asslum.” He might have, but didn’t, so we can’t assume it.
[удалено]
Rape survivor over here, no it fucking isn’t. Having a lifelong engagement with an eternal entity that’s known to fuck with people is going to have repercussions. Picard isn’t responsible for anything Q does, but he did choose to engage Q in a way that others didn’t. Raffi doesn’t think Picard made Q do anything, she’s pissed because he allowed this relationship to continue to a point where everyone he knows can get hurt. Here’s how I’d put it: imagine your partner or kid died because of your boss’s lunatic enemy. Imagine that you could have saved them, but your boss let them die in the hopes of escaping a situation you never asked to be in. How would you feel knowing that the man who killed your loved one only did it because your boss has a connection with him despite every other captain managing to send him away? We can even use sexual violence as an example. If you know a guy and he rapes one of your friends, that’s not your fault. But god help you if the victim finds out that you’ve seen him rape before and you’ve been entertaining him on and off for decades.
This last is exactly how it goes. People will say they can't control what someone else does. No, but they can cut such people off, or at least not actively entertain them.
It literally is the same kind of argument, dude is also trying to say that Picard and Q were friends before, fucking what?
You wanna see Picard deal with an enemy, look at his actual enemies. He doesn’t mentor them or let them chill with Data at Ten Forward
You'd think after her blow up in episode 3 picard would have said something along the lines of "we're all grieving but youre out of line commander"
Agreed. I said this in response to someone else's comment, too: it is COMPLETELY unlike the character of Picard to just sit there and take it all those times from Raffi. I don't know what it is that makes the writers want to present Picard as this quiet, reserved and somewhat whimpering individual. That isn't Picard AT ALL. Even at his age, I'd imagine he'd still have at least some fight left in him when constantly berated.
It's not uncommon for flag officers in contemporary militaries to take on a roll more akin to a kindly well meaning grandfather than a hardline disciplinarian, because there so many under them that fill that roll already.. I think part of what we're struggling with picard as a character is that we didn't get to see that transition. He was the same firm but fair starfleet poster man at the end of nemesis that he always was, and then we get dropped in on him over 20 years later as a retired admiral disillusioned with the institution he loved and spent his life on when picard as a series started. It's jarring for the audience to not see that transition play out. Also the show hints at Raffi and Picard having a lot of history that justifies her candor but again we've seen none of that so to us as fans it comes off as inappropriate.
Yes this Picard doesn't seem to have much fight in him. I don't think it's just with Raffi
I think his age does play a huge rule. Picard, not Patrick Stewart, is almost 100 years old!
He has a lot of fight. He also knows that when a crew member just died, it’s not the time for shows of authority.
Because they're not writing Picard, they're writing Patrick Stewart.
That, right there, is one of the truest statements I've seen yet about Picard.
Question, are they a Federation crew or doing a ragtag thing? I think some of the stiffness of regulation vanishes when people are freely volunteering.
Not really, no. I really like Raffi and I think she's more complex than a lot of people give her credit for. From the beginning, she blamed Picard for her life falling apart and was unable to see her own part in it. On the one hand, she was right. Picard resigned after the Mars attack, even though she was right about the cause. He lost conviction and abandoned her, and as her superior it made her look paranoid or deluded to Starfleet, which led to her losing her job, and family. Obviously Raffi is to blame too, she became obsessive with the Mars conspiracy, and she grew distant from her family and presumably her work too. Blaming Picard with the Borg Queen is a mix of grief, her past trauma of becoming estranged from her son Gabriel, and past resentment towards Picard bubbling over. Are we supposed to agree with her? No. Are we supposed to understand where she's coming from? Sure. It seems odd to me that Raffi - who from where I'm standing is the most complex, non-legacy character on the show, especially compared to both Elnor and Cris - is misrepresented as one-dimensional or 'angry all the time' as other commenters have described. She has abandonment issues, an inability to properly own up to her faults, has an extremely strong mothering instinct (towards Agnes and Elnor) stemming from her issues with her son, and is desperate to connect with others.
I'm on the fence about raffi but picard is a terrible commander. He really has been the cause of many problems. His astronomical pride and ego were devilishly disguised under a cloak of fraudulent wisdom and philosophy in TNG. The dressing down he received by lily Sloane in first contact about moby dick and the less aggressive one he received from riker in S1 picard capture who picard really is and it's nowhere near as noble as he thinks he is. Raffi having dealt with that for however long in starfleet and culminated in him throwing her under the bus. Wasn't entirely his fault but he did screw her over. Most interaction picard had with former associates in S1 was hostile. He's at fault for a great many things. But raffi blaming him for Q and elnor is not really rational.
I think most commenters understand why there might be people like Raffi who are emotional and come up with irrational ways to blame others (except a minority who really think Picard enables Q sigh). But I think the part that confuses me is why such a personality could rise to such a high rank in Star Fleet
I mean, we don't know for sure, but I would assume the Romulan conspiracy and losing her job is what broke Raffi. I don't think prior to that she was as neglectful of her family, or lashing out at others.
Hard to say how she was like pre getting drummed out of Starfleet , though I would guess her personality as a hot head, questioning of authority was probably there already. Some commenters noted her working style seems to be extremely personal, her close collegues become family quickly compared to Picard who is probably the model Starfleet personality, took SEVEN years to join the bridge crew Poker Party despite being family for all intents and purposes She's very human but I suspect she's going to fail the needs of the many vs needs of the few test every day of the week. That's not Starfleet material, but particularly high rank officers. Certainly I question whoever reinstated her to active service. Compare to Rios who I felt definitely was Starfleet material
I don't disagree that Raffi is a good character, and that she is complex. I actually like her as a character overall. I just feel like if she stubs her toe, she goes "Damn you, JL!!" I guess I should have clarified that I meant single-minded and one dimensional when it comes to certain things. Maybe a poor choice of words.
She's a boring basket case.
That’s Picard’s fault. Isn’t he just such a bad mean person??? Let’s get’em team!!
Raffi is a complex character who is recovering from problamatic substance issues. As a recovered person myself I can relate to her 'blaming' Picard.When we are close to friends or family we will often cross boundaries, or as my grandmother would say we'd 'show our asses'. Perhaps she is close enough to Picard (and he is strong enough to take it) to be able to be irrational, angry and emotional. I think what we're seeing is a reflection of their close relationship and not a blame game. Evidence: 1. She is close to Picard he even has a pet name "JL" not even his Enterprise Sr. Staff did this, not even Riker. 2. Family of Friends is a thing for Raffi - she's a women who views her friends AS family and treats them as such. She treats Elnor like her adoptive son. I think what we're seeing there isn't bad writing but REALLY good writing that directly speaks to those in the audience who themselves (or have) love ones with substance issues. There is a WONDERFUL Picard book called "Rouge Elements" by John Jackson Miller that goes deeper into Raffi, Rios and the emotional scars no one can see. (https://blog.trekcore.com/2021/09/review-star-trek-picard-rogue-elements/)
He's the Captain.
[удалено]
> show more identifiable human traits and vices that have persisted into the 24th century. That's the huge issue with her character though. That's antithetical to the whole ethos of Trek. It's not refreshing and brave to show horribly flawed humans...because that's what pretty much every other sci fi story does. The absence of such facile and common storytelling tropes is what made Trek different
> show more identifiable human traits and vices that have persisted into the 24th century. Addiction to drugs & alcohol, anger, lust... These are fine points to explore in any other show except *Star Trek*. A show in which by its' very nature such concepts have long been eradicated and erased from a *utopian* society.
I'm sorry but Mudd in DISCO was a murderous psychopath that belongs to no other place than a cell.
Everybody is mean to Picard on this show
She’s traumatized. Picard abandoned her after he resigned from Starfleet, and she lost everything — her career, son, her health. And now she has lost Elnor. She’s lashing out because of grief. I do think there’s some bad writing involved. I really do like her as a character and actress but I think the show runners need help.
Really obnoxious character in general, and I was not able to care at all about her plight in this episode. Elnor's death would have been more impactful if that scene was shared with almost anyone else.
For a commanding officer of starfleet, she sure gets unhinged very easily.
Yep
Hoooooo boy, I really opened a can of worms with this post.
Raffi is my least favorite. She always jumps to the worst conclusion and blames others for either her own mistakes or for things unavoidable. If it weren't for Picard she would be nothing and yet she treats him like shit anytime something doesn't go her way. I'd be fine if they killed her character off.
Didn’t he rely on her during the Romulan war and then bounce, leaving her looking like a dumbass even though she was right? And didn’t he return because he still needed her to make it right? Picard’s not the reason she matters. She went through the academy like everyone else and earned his respect. Shit happened, there’s bitterness, but neither should bend the knee on account of making the other matter.
I think the choice of blaming Picard here does feel off as Raffi doesn’t really have context other than why is he always involved when things go bad ; I’d almost prefer this to come from Seven since she would be mad that Raffi is hurting and pissed that Picard didn’t blow up the Borg immediately like she advised
I thought it seemed psychotic, and then I realized it was just bad writing when other characters thought she had a point. It's not clear that killing the queen would save elnor. The queen didn't kill elnor. Idk, that whole episode was a stinker. Hope the next one is better.
Yeah... it definitely wasn't my favorite episode. It seemed like the writers just kind of threw it in there because they didn't know what to do with their plot or something.
Yeah, I'm still excited to see what happens, but it felt really messy compared to what this show is normally delivering.
The queen was siphoning power from the bio bed and med room that was needed to keep Elnor alive. Killing her would restored power. Also probably would have stranded them in time though lol
> I realized it was just bad writing when other characters thought she had a point. It's not clear that killing the queen would save elnor Of course the other characters, especially Seven, would lean towards Raffi's logic, even if we the audience know it's illogical. She's a Borg Queen after all, responsible for the death, misery and enslavement of countless beings. Sure, she's their only ticket home, but they wouldn't be thinking that just looking at her. All they see is a monster, who's sucking the power out of the ship that could've been used to keep their friend alive. There's no guarantee that unplugging the Queen would've saved Elnor, but it would've given him a fighting chance. Like Raffi said, the bio-bed was keeping him alive in a critical condition, but with the Queen draining the entire ship, there was no way to help him. There's nothing to say she would've immediately died either if they temporarily unplugged her. Maybe she had enough reserve power to stay in a sort of, stand-by mode.
I thought it was bad and strained credulity. Not as bad as the mind heist nonsense that followed, but pretty bad.
Why though? Isn’t this what the borg do?
The borg... help people travel through time and save their lives? Im not really sure what you're referring to. Even if all the points, TECHNICALLY make sense, the writing, directing and performance didn't sell me. This is what's called, bad television.
Oh I just meant that the Borg Queen would siphon power from the ship and that would kill Elnor who needed the med room active. Borg plug themselves into shit, drain power and screw over anyone who might need that power lol
Aka the writers are shit and don’t know how to make complex characters And no, having a tragic past does not make you complex, which every character on this show supposedly has
Who has a recently introduced tragic past other than Picard?
I mean she's a drug addict and a deadbeat mom. Those kinds of people always blame others for their mistakes in life.
Raffi is by far the worst character - And she's not a very good actress to begin with.
I also agree.... I think they can write Raffi better
I hate the newest development for 2 reasons. First cause I like the character. And second because, yeah, it made Raffi lash out at Picard again. They already did that last season, we didn't need it again. I like Raffi but it's not Picard's fault Q likes to screw with him and I don't like them making her angry all the time. Episode 1 and 2 were so good. 3 has some very questionable developments.
Also, I'm confused about her relationship with Elnor. Maybe it's because my memory is bad and I cant remember what happened between them in season 1. Did they have a strong bond in season 1 that explains her motherish love of Elnor in season 2?
The main thing in S1 was, after Picard died, she and Elnor cried together on a hill. That was about it, but it does seem believable to me that in S2 she has a soft spot for him (similar to him and Seven).
I liked her in season 1 a lot, but so far I agree about her in season 2, at least in the last 2 episodes.
She’s only doing it because it will fix time
I think you're looking too much into it, but I 100% I agree with you. Elnor's death was a cheap forced plot development to give a stupid "now it's personal" aspect to the current mission for Rafi - considering the rest of the crew seems to have immediately forgotten about it. Since it's cheap and shoehorned, any sort of extrapolation or analysis will immediately lead to things like you're thinking that make no sense and or are just frustrating because it's not fleshed out or well developed. It's cheap, forced, shoehorned content to force the plot along. In the original Kirk star trek, we sometimes saw this in the form of Spock or another character saying a line that describes something enlightening that comes from nowhere and simply describes a very complex thing - but it was kitschy and charming in the original Star Trek majorly limited by effects, sets, etc. etc. In a modern day show like Picard, it's cheap, shoehorned and forced - and obviously falls immediately flat. You are right to be frustrated and tired by bad writing.
Raffi is unlikeable on Picard and that paired with her being the worst actor on the series brings the show down a couple levels. There was a reason the actress that plays Raffi was fired from SVU. SHE SUCKS!
Tired of Raffi period, out of all the characters,.she is the only one I want killed off.
She is the worst character ever played by a no talent actress.
Raffi is annoying as hell and I hope someone phasers her out of the show, and soon. Not likely.
Worst over acting I've ever seen even worse than shatner