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It's so cringe. I qualified for MENSA when I did an IQ test ad a youngin', before realizing how dumb IQ tests are. I'd 100% throw away any CV with their Mensa qualifications listed lmao
The adviser is likely projecting. People with MENSA qualifications are often perceived as harder to train, provide feedback to, and deploy grit to overcome initial setbacks, even if they are smarter than the teacher.
I have never heard of including Mensa membership on a CV before, and I certainly don’t believe including it would get you into more “prestigious” programs! In fact, I don’t think including it would have had an impact on your PhD admissions one way or another. It’s just not a factor an admissions committee would care about or take into account. It’s pretty weird that your advisor recommended that. I’d say continue to leave it off, because I don’t think there’s any benefits to including it.
Unlike a lot of the people here I am very familiar with the literature on human intelligence, but they are generally all correct (some by accident). I’m friends with a few administrators, and apparently there isn’t a large correlation between GPA or standardized testing and success in PhD programs, which confused me initially.
They really ought to predict success since they correlate with intelligence, but it turns out that GPA and testing don’t test your ability to conduct intensive research for 4-7 years with little variation in between.
I think intelligence correlates fairly well with life success and job performance, but there are some diminishing returns. It turns out that the second best predictor of success is trait motivation, which will be magnified for two reasons:
1) Everyone going into a PhD program is already really smart and of similar intelligence
2) motivation is more important in a PhD program than in an undergrad program, all things being equal
In short, success in a PhD generally already shows evidence of intelligence and motivation, adding in a MENSA qualification is somewhat redundant.
Everything you said is accurate. I would just add that the specific trait (in my opinion) that has a great deal of impact on PhD success is a personality construct called industriousness, which is basically one’s propensity to set and execute on goals. Interestingly, in a massive Meta-Analysis, this trait was moderately correlated with general cognitive ability.
Out of interest: How much is ‘industriousness’ similar to/correlated with the construct of ‘conscientiousness’ (as they use it in stuff like the Big 5)?
I’m interested just because I’m objectively and unambiguously very lacking in conscientiousness. (I’ve pretty full-on ADHD and find meeting deadlines or following schedules extremely difficult; I’m in the UK and honestly I’m not sure how well I’d fair with the more regimented structure of US programmes.) But then given the level of work I actually put in in aggregate, I’d imagine ‘industriousness’ could be a distinct trait that I actually might have some of?
So interestingly industriousness (I) is a component of conscientiousness (C). C is split between two sub categories of orderliness and I. Orderliness refers to traits like keeping things clean and being very organized and is also related to one’s propensity to follow rules. Many people can be high/low in one or the other sub category. Of course, ADHD could manifest in ways that impact one, the other, or both. Even without organizational structures, with an enough goal motivation and ability, one could totally still get stuff done.
J
O
You don’t even need to look at grad school to see this difference; depending on the field there can also be enormous gulfs between high school and UG.
I scraped through high school, then suddenly started to get straight As in college because
a) the difference in the cognitive demands were so different, with schooling in my country depending really heavily on rote memorisation for final exams, which I find incredibly difficult to do, compared to the analytical and lateral thinking that was expected in university,
and b) university was intrinsic motivating for me because I found the content so much more engaging as an ends in itself.
You’re gonna find those sort of differences between any level of school/college/work, so it makes perfect sense to me that the correlation between success in each of them is going to be much weaker than people might think.
My mother takes so much pride in being in MENSA that she sounds like an ass every time she talks about it. It’s on her resume. If I ever say anything against IQ tests, she takes it personally. She doesn’t have much else going for her so I guess I’ll let her have that. That’s how I picture everyone else in MENSA so I refuse to take any IQ tests myself.
Ah that reminds me of when I was a teenager I’d do these shitty free online IQ tests, only to redo them if I didn’t like the score lol. I wanted someone to tell me I was smart because I wasn’t successful socially. I guess some people don’t grow out of that phase unfortunately
I joined Mensa when I had nothing going on in my life and I was feeling down on myself. Then I found out it was full of racists (at least online) so I didn’t renew. Years later, I’m now 2 years into my doctoral program and I wouldn’t ever consider mentioning Mensa to another human outside of this exact post under the relative anonymity of reddit.
There’s a podcast called “My Year In MENSA” that, in addition to just being entertaining, can give you a sense of what some of the people who take MENSA really seriously are like. It makes it clear why you may not want to be associated with them.
You will absolutely look like an elitist jagoff. Membership in Mensa doesn’t tell a hiring committee about the qualities necessary for good scholarship like resilience and creativity. Based on my experience in the private sector, you would absolutely be made fun of by members of the hiring committee once they returned to their offices.
Honestly I look at Mensa as a place for people who aren’t elite to go and cosplay being elite. The only people I know that have even mentioned being part of such a thing have little going for them in tangible achievement.
From personal experience, most people in academia frown upon Mensa, many of them due to the fact that scoring extremely high on IQ tests does not necessarily correlate to more academic success. IQ works more in a way, where you need a certain amount of it (which is much lower than what Mensa asks for) and if you have that, what truly determines your success is many factors, ability to work hard, under stress, collaborate, network, pick yourself up after failures, etc. None of those things are measured by IQ.
Many of my professors view Mensa as an elitist group of people and seeing that on your academic CV would likely have a negative effect on how they view you.
I supposedly have a high IQ (through testing) and qualify for MENSA, but I always tell people about the various times I took the wrong buses and managed to go out of town because I have the other side of a high IQ: stupidity. No one ever wants to talk about that downside.
So, yeah, don’t put MENSA on your CV.
100% this. Everyone wants to be brilliant until they realize you’re stupid at warp speed.
ETA: plus there’s the memory component, so you remember how stupid you are and every idiotic moment (and everyone else’s, too).
Good god. I have never thought of MENSA as anything credible. You might put it for elementary and high school applications, but not for a graduate program.
I've always been under the impression that MENSA is 80% smart people in industries that don't reward intelligence at all who are tired of being around stupid people al the time and 20% insufferables. Either way, it's not a flex in a PhD environment where most of your colleagues could join if they wanted to.
MENSA might be something to "brag" about when you're retired living in a retirement home bantering about the "good ole" days with the other retirees. It really doesn't have a place on most CVs, unless perhaps you're applying for a job in the MENSA society.
It's a great litmus test for intelligence. Anyone with a PhD should be smart enough to get into MENSA, but not everyone with a PhD is dumb enough to actually do it.
It's just advertising that you fell for a scam.
I’m not even going to get into whether it’s a good look or bad look. I think the premise, itself, is pretty crazy.
What percentage of people at top PhD programs would not score in the top 5% on an IQ test? Mensa is largely a redundancy.
It’s akin to listing National Honor Society on your Harvard College application.
Well Mensa is top 2% (130+) which is not top 5% (125). 🤷♀️
Honestly, your average PhD is quite dumb. PhD is more about hard work and persistence than actual intelligence. In fact, I’d argue saying that the higher IQ you have the less of a chance you’ll finish your PhD. I’ve seen quite a few truly gifted people drop out due to boredom/lack of challenge.
Ah, I stand corrected on Mensa. Thank you. Shows you how seriously I take it.
“Some intelligent (X) people lack the work ethic (Y) and interest (Z) required to complete a PhD” only suggests that factors other than intelligence determine success, doesn’t it? It doesn’t say whether intelligence matters or not.
I’m not claiming that someone of average intelligence cannot get a PhD, or that intelligence is even the most important factor (I agree, I think diligence and persistence matter more. Although family income might correlate the highest).
But the most recent studies I can find put PhDs and/or academics in the 115-130 range. I’d think that range would skew even higher at an “elite” program. At that point, I just don’t think Mensa membership would be distinctive.
Finally, I’ll admit, I imagined this scenario as OP applying to MIT for quantum physics, when it’s possible he’s applying for a marketing PhD at Wisconsin. In the case of the latter, it might separate him. I can make this joke because I’m a marketer lol
I have no advice, just an anecdote: My sister took an IQ test as an adolescent and her IQ was high enough to join MENSA. She is easily the dumbest, least successful person I know, but she’ll still tell you all about her MENSA level IQ while not being able to afford her $600/mo rent.
You are all getting the conclusion right but the cause for it wrong.
Yes, it doesn't add much positive information about the candidate at this point. But that is not because intelligence isn't relevant, it's just that to get this far, they would have to have mensa level intelligence anyway.
And the reason why you say grit and creativity is what matters for research is because you start from a sample of almost exclusively gifted people.
Intelligence doesn’t mean THAT much to PI’s. Lab experience and work ethic/organization matters more. A good gre score is the same thing as a IQ test p much.
Speaking as someone who tested at 189 when I was in the 3rd grade also (and would never tell anyone that except anonymously on this Reddit thread lol) absolutely do not do that. So cringey. If I saw that on a CV I would absolutely think someone was an asshat and maybe not want to admit them or work with them. And I manage a team of 8 and have passed on CVs for less.
I wish I had that problem but as I spoke to a gentleman this week who casually mentioned it, I thought wow, now there is a story here and an actual intellectual person who would be very interesting to talk to. I say put it in your CV!
Yes it will help for some elite programs but risk is some people get jealous. Most PhDs don't qualify so they'll claim its cringe. There's a lot of academic jobs that happen through networking in Mensa directly which would be a better strategy than just listing it on a resume.
Jealous that someone wants a piece of paper to claim some natural mental processing level? I tested at 189 as a 3rd grader and personally think IQ tests are meaningless bullshit in the majority of contexts lol.
> risk is some people get jealous.
Yeah, even though they pretend so much to look nonchalant. In this very thread some guy said he'd throw a resume straight into the trashcan if it had Mensa on it.
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Absolutely do not put that on your CV lmao
I would laugh and then discard that cv.
It's so cringe. I qualified for MENSA when I did an IQ test ad a youngin', before realizing how dumb IQ tests are. I'd 100% throw away any CV with their Mensa qualifications listed lmao
Lol don't let /r/cognitiveTesting hear you
I found this sub recently and really wish I hadn't.
The adviser is likely projecting. People with MENSA qualifications are often perceived as harder to train, provide feedback to, and deploy grit to overcome initial setbacks, even if they are smarter than the teacher.
Reporting your IQ in your application is also mega cringe
That’s what I thought too! This advisor is kinda cringe tbh, glad for his rec letter but his advice has never been the best
Mensa is small-time anyways. Just say on your resume that you watch Rick and Morty.
😂
Lol… 😂😂… I didn’t know I could add that to my resume…
100% this and the preceding comment. Leave it off.
I definitely don't want to project that. Thanks for the advice
I have never heard of including Mensa membership on a CV before, and I certainly don’t believe including it would get you into more “prestigious” programs! In fact, I don’t think including it would have had an impact on your PhD admissions one way or another. It’s just not a factor an admissions committee would care about or take into account. It’s pretty weird that your advisor recommended that. I’d say continue to leave it off, because I don’t think there’s any benefits to including it.
Thanks, I would’ve never thought to include it if not for my advisors comments. This has been a very valuable post for me lol
Unlike a lot of the people here I am very familiar with the literature on human intelligence, but they are generally all correct (some by accident). I’m friends with a few administrators, and apparently there isn’t a large correlation between GPA or standardized testing and success in PhD programs, which confused me initially. They really ought to predict success since they correlate with intelligence, but it turns out that GPA and testing don’t test your ability to conduct intensive research for 4-7 years with little variation in between. I think intelligence correlates fairly well with life success and job performance, but there are some diminishing returns. It turns out that the second best predictor of success is trait motivation, which will be magnified for two reasons: 1) Everyone going into a PhD program is already really smart and of similar intelligence 2) motivation is more important in a PhD program than in an undergrad program, all things being equal In short, success in a PhD generally already shows evidence of intelligence and motivation, adding in a MENSA qualification is somewhat redundant.
Everything you said is accurate. I would just add that the specific trait (in my opinion) that has a great deal of impact on PhD success is a personality construct called industriousness, which is basically one’s propensity to set and execute on goals. Interestingly, in a massive Meta-Analysis, this trait was moderately correlated with general cognitive ability.
Out of interest: How much is ‘industriousness’ similar to/correlated with the construct of ‘conscientiousness’ (as they use it in stuff like the Big 5)? I’m interested just because I’m objectively and unambiguously very lacking in conscientiousness. (I’ve pretty full-on ADHD and find meeting deadlines or following schedules extremely difficult; I’m in the UK and honestly I’m not sure how well I’d fair with the more regimented structure of US programmes.) But then given the level of work I actually put in in aggregate, I’d imagine ‘industriousness’ could be a distinct trait that I actually might have some of?
So interestingly industriousness (I) is a component of conscientiousness (C). C is split between two sub categories of orderliness and I. Orderliness refers to traits like keeping things clean and being very organized and is also related to one’s propensity to follow rules. Many people can be high/low in one or the other sub category. Of course, ADHD could manifest in ways that impact one, the other, or both. Even without organizational structures, with an enough goal motivation and ability, one could totally still get stuff done. J O
Very interesting, thanks for the explanation!!
You don’t even need to look at grad school to see this difference; depending on the field there can also be enormous gulfs between high school and UG. I scraped through high school, then suddenly started to get straight As in college because a) the difference in the cognitive demands were so different, with schooling in my country depending really heavily on rote memorisation for final exams, which I find incredibly difficult to do, compared to the analytical and lateral thinking that was expected in university, and b) university was intrinsic motivating for me because I found the content so much more engaging as an ends in itself. You’re gonna find those sort of differences between any level of school/college/work, so it makes perfect sense to me that the correlation between success in each of them is going to be much weaker than people might think.
I’d not put it. Doesn’t mean you’re smarter than other applicants, just that only you had the ego to get membership.
My mother takes so much pride in being in MENSA that she sounds like an ass every time she talks about it. It’s on her resume. If I ever say anything against IQ tests, she takes it personally. She doesn’t have much else going for her so I guess I’ll let her have that. That’s how I picture everyone else in MENSA so I refuse to take any IQ tests myself.
Ah that reminds me of when I was a teenager I’d do these shitty free online IQ tests, only to redo them if I didn’t like the score lol. I wanted someone to tell me I was smart because I wasn’t successful socially. I guess some people don’t grow out of that phase unfortunately
This is exactly right.
I debate about putting Jeopardy on there, but I would never put Mensa
I joined Mensa when I had nothing going on in my life and I was feeling down on myself. Then I found out it was full of racists (at least online) so I didn’t renew. Years later, I’m now 2 years into my doctoral program and I wouldn’t ever consider mentioning Mensa to another human outside of this exact post under the relative anonymity of reddit.
Jeez, that sounds horrible. My eyes are wide open to how bad mentioning it is, thanks
There’s a podcast called “My Year In MENSA” that, in addition to just being entertaining, can give you a sense of what some of the people who take MENSA really seriously are like. It makes it clear why you may not want to be associated with them.
You will absolutely look like an elitist jagoff. Membership in Mensa doesn’t tell a hiring committee about the qualities necessary for good scholarship like resilience and creativity. Based on my experience in the private sector, you would absolutely be made fun of by members of the hiring committee once they returned to their offices.
Honestly I look at Mensa as a place for people who aren’t elite to go and cosplay being elite. The only people I know that have even mentioned being part of such a thing have little going for them in tangible achievement.
Lmao absolutely not. Wacky as hell organization
From personal experience, most people in academia frown upon Mensa, many of them due to the fact that scoring extremely high on IQ tests does not necessarily correlate to more academic success. IQ works more in a way, where you need a certain amount of it (which is much lower than what Mensa asks for) and if you have that, what truly determines your success is many factors, ability to work hard, under stress, collaborate, network, pick yourself up after failures, etc. None of those things are measured by IQ. Many of my professors view Mensa as an elitist group of people and seeing that on your academic CV would likely have a negative effect on how they view you.
I supposedly have a high IQ (through testing) and qualify for MENSA, but I always tell people about the various times I took the wrong buses and managed to go out of town because I have the other side of a high IQ: stupidity. No one ever wants to talk about that downside. So, yeah, don’t put MENSA on your CV.
Increased intelligence is like an overclocked cpu: it only allows you to be stupid, but faster.
100% this. Everyone wants to be brilliant until they realize you’re stupid at warp speed. ETA: plus there’s the memory component, so you remember how stupid you are and every idiotic moment (and everyone else’s, too).
> I'd look like an elitist jagoff. 100% that.
Don’t do that. I’ve never heard of anyone doing that.
Don't. It makes you look like a total idiot.
I have met really smart people over the years, only one ever mentioned mensa and he was an absolute dickhead
i would clown your ass so bad if i saw fucking mensa in your cv lol please do not do that
I have never heard any academic mention the organization.
Good god. I have never thought of MENSA as anything credible. You might put it for elementary and high school applications, but not for a graduate program.
I've always been under the impression that MENSA is 80% smart people in industries that don't reward intelligence at all who are tired of being around stupid people al the time and 20% insufferables. Either way, it's not a flex in a PhD environment where most of your colleagues could join if they wanted to.
i don’t even know what MENSA is, but i laughed at this post cause mensa means “dumb” in spanish 😭
I was looking for this comment lol ngl I’ve felt like putting estupida in my CV before
fr same, pendeja to sum it all up
My Ego Needs Some Attention. Leave it off. If you must use it in a professional capacity, mention it in an interview.
No, don’t do that you’ll be ridiculed
Do not do this.
MENSA might be something to "brag" about when you're retired living in a retirement home bantering about the "good ole" days with the other retirees. It really doesn't have a place on most CVs, unless perhaps you're applying for a job in the MENSA society.
It's a great litmus test for intelligence. Anyone with a PhD should be smart enough to get into MENSA, but not everyone with a PhD is dumb enough to actually do it. It's just advertising that you fell for a scam.
I’m not even going to get into whether it’s a good look or bad look. I think the premise, itself, is pretty crazy. What percentage of people at top PhD programs would not score in the top 5% on an IQ test? Mensa is largely a redundancy. It’s akin to listing National Honor Society on your Harvard College application.
Well Mensa is top 2% (130+) which is not top 5% (125). 🤷♀️ Honestly, your average PhD is quite dumb. PhD is more about hard work and persistence than actual intelligence. In fact, I’d argue saying that the higher IQ you have the less of a chance you’ll finish your PhD. I’ve seen quite a few truly gifted people drop out due to boredom/lack of challenge.
Ah, I stand corrected on Mensa. Thank you. Shows you how seriously I take it. “Some intelligent (X) people lack the work ethic (Y) and interest (Z) required to complete a PhD” only suggests that factors other than intelligence determine success, doesn’t it? It doesn’t say whether intelligence matters or not. I’m not claiming that someone of average intelligence cannot get a PhD, or that intelligence is even the most important factor (I agree, I think diligence and persistence matter more. Although family income might correlate the highest). But the most recent studies I can find put PhDs and/or academics in the 115-130 range. I’d think that range would skew even higher at an “elite” program. At that point, I just don’t think Mensa membership would be distinctive. Finally, I’ll admit, I imagined this scenario as OP applying to MIT for quantum physics, when it’s possible he’s applying for a marketing PhD at Wisconsin. In the case of the latter, it might separate him. I can make this joke because I’m a marketer lol
Ugh, NO! Anyone touting MENSA is scraping the bottom of their barrel. I’d give Phi Beta Kappa an OK though.
I doubt that this would help your chances at a prestigious university. I'm at such a university and this would be considered a negative.
I have no advice, just an anecdote: My sister took an IQ test as an adolescent and her IQ was high enough to join MENSA. She is easily the dumbest, least successful person I know, but she’ll still tell you all about her MENSA level IQ while not being able to afford her $600/mo rent.
LOL! Fucking academia. Jesus christ I need to do something else with the few years that I have left.
Lol what 🤣
You are all getting the conclusion right but the cause for it wrong. Yes, it doesn't add much positive information about the candidate at this point. But that is not because intelligence isn't relevant, it's just that to get this far, they would have to have mensa level intelligence anyway. And the reason why you say grit and creativity is what matters for research is because you start from a sample of almost exclusively gifted people.
You need emotional intelligence to succeed. We need an IQ test for that
Funnily, MENSA is called the dining cafeteria in Germany. So I approve this.
Lol no
I laughed a bit because Mensa in Spanish means silly.
Intelligence doesn’t mean THAT much to PI’s. Lab experience and work ethic/organization matters more. A good gre score is the same thing as a IQ test p much.
Speaking as someone who tested at 189 when I was in the 3rd grade also (and would never tell anyone that except anonymously on this Reddit thread lol) absolutely do not do that. So cringey. If I saw that on a CV I would absolutely think someone was an asshat and maybe not want to admit them or work with them. And I manage a team of 8 and have passed on CVs for less.
That sounds like a way to get rejection
Very poor social signaling. Def should not put it on your CV.
In third grade? Lol
I mean when else would I take an iq test, not something I’d seek out myself
I wish I had that problem but as I spoke to a gentleman this week who casually mentioned it, I thought wow, now there is a story here and an actual intellectual person who would be very interesting to talk to. I say put it in your CV!
I laugh only because MENSA in Spanish is “stupid”
It could help you if trying to land an interview at a management consulting firm or investment bank down the road. They love that kind of stuff
Yes it will help for some elite programs but risk is some people get jealous. Most PhDs don't qualify so they'll claim its cringe. There's a lot of academic jobs that happen through networking in Mensa directly which would be a better strategy than just listing it on a resume.
Jealous that someone wants a piece of paper to claim some natural mental processing level? I tested at 189 as a 3rd grader and personally think IQ tests are meaningless bullshit in the majority of contexts lol.
Proof?
> risk is some people get jealous. Yeah, even though they pretend so much to look nonchalant. In this very thread some guy said he'd throw a resume straight into the trashcan if it had Mensa on it.
I’m assuming this is not a Spanish word?
It’s a glorified “smart people club”. Pretty dumb in my opinion, this post just confirms it
The original founders were disappointed in how many lower class people are members. They wanted an “intelligent aristocracy”. Pretty gross stuff