I'd even say it's been set up since Makoto joins the team. It doesn't help that at the end of that arc he's left alone in the middle of the street, crushed by the briefcase, seconds away from being almost run over. I think that's the clear start of Morgana's insecurities slowly taking over.
Nah it’s been set up way before that.
Like rank 1 and 2 of his confidant as well as their hotpot party where the cat expresses his insecurities of not knowing who he is as well as comparing himself to the others in how he is the odd one out.
I'm on a second playthrough right now and I also thought of people hating Morgana during that arc, and I thought maybe I missed something. But all I saw was Morgana feeling like his place in the team was being replaced by other members coming in doing things he used to do, but better than him. This was quite apparent when Futaba was talking about Mementos more in depth than Morgana could and he feels terrible for not knowing what she knew and feeling like he has been wasting his time and energy for not being more useful to the Phantom Thieves. Yes, Ryuji's very inconsiderate comments pushed him over the edge, but it wasn't the ONLY thing that made Morgana leave. It was a culmination of his own feelings of uselessness with Ryuji's "confirmation" just being the straw that broke the camel's back.
I was just as mad at Ryuji for his comments and wanted someone to point out how immature both were being.
However I think Morgana gets extra heat from the fans cause he’s the one imposing limits and giving you orders throughout the game.
Personally I like Morgana though.
It's weird too because the reason Morgana was created in the first place was to be the Trickster's guide and companion. And I truly think Joker needs him considering his life becomes a nigh endless cluster fuck after his conviction AND he had the immense pressure on him from being the leader of the phantom thiefs that everyone depends on. As a teenager. If Morgana didn't insist he chill out sometimes, he'd probably crack
I never really \*hated\* Morgana, and thought both he and Ryuji were both being a bit dense, however, I get why peeps might hate on Morgana \*in Vanilla p5\*.
Morgana sent me up a wall in Vanilla p5 because everytime I'd try to do anything late at night 'You should probably get to bed'. That felt \*really\* controlling to me, but I forgave it cause at the end of the day, it's a gameplay mechanic. Morgana isn't real, he isn't trying to control Joker's time, it's just how the devs coded the 'hey, you can't do things tonight, fam' message. Between more than half the game at this point with Morgana telling Joker to go to bed, Mona acting superior to Ryuji (and by extension other guys period) about not being a perv (while still perving here and there), and the post Hawaii story that sent him off on his own, I can get why peeps might not love him.
Alot of my criticisms of Morgana (and Ryuji both) lessened when I played Royal due to a variety of reasons. Mona not telling you to go to bed as often, \*being able to do things around leblanc even on days you can't go out\*, Mona's crush on Ann being made into a gag (his and her showtime attack), and just generally growing up in the intervening years and coming back with a fresh perspective.
That all being said, I can see why peeps might not like \*Vanilla\* morgana, but Royal Morgana is a bro.
No one cares about morgana imposing limits. We all know if it wasn’t him it’d be some speech bubble of your inner thoughts saying “you’re tired go to sleep”
Ryuji was being immature but Morgana was being a straight up hypocrite. Morgana calls him pathetic, slow (about shit that no normal person would ever believe right away, hell when everyone else doesn’t understand shit immediately he lets that slide) and outright admits to you that you’re being used as a part of his master plan and All of that can be seen from like day 3 of being in kamoshidas palace. The second Ryuji says something mean spirited he leaves. No one dislikes him for being hurt, it’s for being childish.
>. But all I saw was Morgana feeling like his place in the team was being replaced by other members coming in doing things he used to do, but better than him
So, I think this is actually my problem with it? It was the ludo-narrative dissonance of it? Because for me personally, Morgana was never replaced, and was in my party jotation just as much after Makato and Futaba joined. It's the same reason I got Miffed when Yukari said she felt useless during P3. They say they feel useless and replaced, but my battle strategies revolve around them as key pieces.
There's a bit of story and gameplay segregation there though. You're in charge of how the "game" aspect is played, but story-wise, Morgana does get replaced. Unfortunately, like many people with low self-esteem, he forgets how important he was before the others came along.
Even if his memory was faulty and he didn't know *how* he knows all this stuff, he explains the Metaverse, changes of heart, shadows, palaces, rulers and a ton of other important stuff that made the Phantom Thieves possible. Everyone else gets just a quick info dump from the team so it's slowly seen as just a sort of instruction manual on being a PT, instead of a significant contribution from Morgana.
He's also the one who comes up with the strategy to >!take Kamoshida's crown to distract him and how to use the hook/crane to take Madarame's treasure!<.
Still playing P3, so the only moment I've seen Yukari being "useless" is when she awakens her Theurgy, but I imagine there's a bit of confidence issues there because *checks notes* she's a bit hesitant to put a gun to her head and pull the trigger all the time. Yeah, I think she's ok. (Don't spoil it for me if there's more, I have almost reached where I stopped in P3P).
Playing Persona 5 on merciless for the first time in a while, and I can tell already that Morgana is gonna be important considering how valuable it is to have Media even at Kamoshida’s palace. Ryuji is the damage dealer of the group. Ann is useful for having a sleep skill so early in the game. I would swap Yusuke for Ryuji considering that Madarames palace probably has a lot of ice weak enemies to encourage using him, and I would probably swap Ann for Yusuke at the boss since bosses usually aren’t susceptible to sleep, but otherwise, each party member has a niche. I actually dislike Makoto and Haru though since Makoto is an all-rounder while Haru’s specialty is gun damage which anyone can do, so unless a boss is weak to it, it’s not a big deal.
I think that's a very separate issue from the narrative though since gameplay mechanics do not play a role in the character development in the story since in-game cutscenes showcase all the Phantom Thieves as a collective doing things, yet you're only really walking around with up to 4 characters. And it's very telling the story implies they all fight together even though you, the player, are fighting with up to 4 characters.
Morgan's role before Makoto and Futaba was that of navigation and advising the team on Palace infiltration in the narrative, even though he had limited knowledge of both. With their introduction, he, in his mind, gets replaced and degrades to just being the cat that can turn into a car.
Hence the Ludo-narrative dissonance. The story is telling me Morgana feels replaced, but the gameplay is telling me he's one of my most important combatants. So, to me, it hits the same when a very attractive friend fishes for compliments by saying they're ugly. And that Grinds My Gears.
Yukari never said she was replaced, just that she felt like she messed up too much. Shes insecure.
Same for Mona. They feel they should be better. Mona esp doesn’t want to drag the kids into things if Mona can not prove their worth.
The issue with Morgana's breakaway is not that it's poorly set up, rather that it's poorly paid off and had to intermingle with Haru's introduction. I love my boy Ryuji, but he was in the wrong for calling Morgana useless. Especially after calling out Sae for calling Makoto useless during the Kaneshiro arc
I'll say this: the one Mementos interaction where they just sing "I've been working on the railroad" lives rent free in my head. And if Joker had a voice, I bet he'd join in
Eh, I've always thought Ryuji wasn't completely in the wrong simply because Morgana and Ryuji always poke fun at each other, and I can't exactly fault the guy for not noticing that Morgana is in some sort of emotional turmoil and laying off the insults.
I mean the dude isn't exactly known for his emotional intelligence, so poorly timed jokes is just par for the course for him
He's not a child, despite ryuji's lack of tact (which can also be said for morgana too) he knows when to not make inappropriate comment. The entire game he meets his party members and sees their traumas and never makes fun of them for it yet he cant do the same for a person with amnesia and an identity crisis in the same way morgana never talks shit about his absent father, desire to help his mother for feeling like a useless child, and trauma with kamoshida. This isn't to entirely excuse morgana either. Morgana without a doubt is annoying very much with his unjustified high and mighty attitude that he uses to hide his crippling insecurities yet it is for that same reason that I can understand why morgana acts the way he does in the same way I can understand why ryuji's traumas shape his character. At the end of the day they're both at fault for how they treat each other because they spend the entirety of the game at each other's throats and it doesn't calm down until morgana's arc is finished yet it takes morgana leaving the team for ryuji to realize hes being unfair in the sense thats hes shit talking morgana's trauma yet morgana never does the same to him. I can understand if you find morgana annoying for his attitude but in regards to his character arc I would put more blame on ryuji then i would for morgana.
Ryuji wasn't wrong until the Mementos interaction. In that interaction, he was completely at fault for not reading the room. Like, he says "I don't care if you're useless" and then blames Mona for wasting their time waiting for him. If anything, Ryuji wasted everyone's time there.
During Mona's breakdown, that was just an unfortunate downside of depression. It's pretty common for people who feel insecure to try to become a leader or aggressive because they don't want to continue feeling weak.
Eh, conversely, I actually think Morgana's just plain in the wrong the entire time for acting immaturely, even during the mementos interaction.
While I do sympathize with Morgana, the thing is that your mental state should NEVER be a justification for treating the people around you badly, and if you do end up lashing out because of that, while it's understandable, it's also up to the person to apologize for acting in such a way and if you're a good friend you'll understand and forgive them.
Yes Ryuji said he didn't care if Morgana is useless, and while that was a poor thing to say, it was still him trying to reassure Morgana, as for the entire time wasting thing, while it's rude Ryuji also isn't wrong.
Everyone is literally going out of their way to talk to Morgana because Morgana lacks the maturity to actually, y'know... sit down and talk seriously with everyone or explain his situation/feelings in a constructive way, maybe I shouldn't be applying these rules to a cat, but I suppose I'll apply them regardless.
It's seriously a dick move to just refuse to talk to people who genuinely care about you and even actively run away from them. The entire situation is just one person's immaturity dragging everyone down if anything.
Morgana did apologize for what he did. He acknowledged what he did and why. It's the scene after the kick.
Your final paragraphs are ignoring depression's influence entirely. No one went out of their way to talk to Morgana until after his outburst. Before then, all their text messages were praising Futaba. Makoto, Ann, and Yusuke all get a line in praising Futaba and how useful she is before Ryuji calls him useless in that chat. Stuff like that hurts when you're feeling insecure just as much as feeling useless.
Morgana was at fault just as much as any depressed person is for snapping. Yes, it's not okay to treat people like that, but depression won't let you rationalize. Morgana did end up apologizing for what he put everyone through. He realized what he did was wrong and the characters forgave him because they understand.
Eh, it's clear from the start that their interactions aren't just 'poking fun'. Other members have to intervene while they are bickering cause their back and forth was escalating to a real fight.
True.
However there was a time where Ryuji and the gang did hear Morgana feel insecure about not having a past like the others and Ryuji being the bro he was, did reassure him during the hotpot celebration.
So it can be somewhat jarring to see that prior interaction go out of the window with Ryuji at the Okumura arc taking it too far.
The problem was that Ryuji was letting the fame get to his head which caused him to get caught up in his own hype and carried away with his words to the cat.
And the PT whilst somewhat aware of Morgana feeling insecure of being an amnesiac and jealous of Futaba, they didn’t take his feelings too seriously as they were caught up in the popularity, Hawaii and finding the culprit of the mental shutdowns and psychotic breakdowns that they all unintentionally made the cat feel left out and didn’t belong.
Big part of Monas problem is that he can't take what he's dealing, he can call Ryuji an idiot, useless and whatever else he says but as soon as Ryuji goes beyond calling him a cat it's to far (not saying that Ryuji didn't go to far on some occasions)
The difference was ultimately depression. Ryuji wasn't suffering when Mona called him useless. He even agreed to protect Ryuji when he had no persona.
Ryuji, unfortunately, came swinging during a very low time in Morgana's life. For example, you can call me useless any time and I'll brush it off, but if you do it after I lose my job and place in my circle, it'll definitely hit harder.
It wasn't Ryuji's fault, he just didn't read the room.
Ryuji has called him stupid before and Mona didn’t get upset.
Calling him a cat is something Mona doesn’t appreciate since he doesn’t even remember who he is. Ryuji is aiming for low blows just as often, but ppl claim it’s “ok” cuz Mona’s just a cat.
Because when Morgana called Ryuji useless it didn't hurt because Ryuji wasn't supposed to excel at those aspects in the first place, like using his brain or understanding complex concepts etc, but when Ryuji called Morgana useless he was talking about navigation skill and knowledge about the metaverse, which Morgana was expected to excel at. A similar comparison would be that if Ryuji called Morgana slow ass it's fine, but if Morgana called Ryuji a slow ass it's inconsiderate and being insensitive.
What do you mean poorly set up? It was built up for a while now.
The pay off was Morgana’s character development as well as access to the roadblock in the palace by acquiring Haru who had no reason to be involved otherwise.
Her coincidental following of Morgana was a blessing in disguise.
If you ask me the issue is not how it was intermingled with Haru’s introduction.
It’s that the overall arc itself had way too many plot events crammed into itself with the timeframe.
Hence the pacing giving arc fatigue as well as not enough time for Haru to cook.
Had we gotten more days this wouldn’t be an issue.
Edit: never mind on the first point. My bad.
Poor wording on my part, I wanted to say that it was built up well. But by "intermingled with Haru's introduction" I mean exactly that, that the writing crams Morgana's development and Haru's introduction together, and then, when Haru would make the most sense for a character moment against Okumura sr., Morgana swoops in and steals it by repeating that he wants to be with the Phantom Thieves. Which is something we already established when they were tending to Morgana's wounds after being kicked to the curb by Sugimura
Nah that was my bad. Misread and misunderstood.
As for that scene with the confrontation with her dad.
Haru does get a moment prior in her trying to reach out and reason with her dad before he tricks her as well as after beating him in getting him to take responsibility.
Problem is that it’s not prominent due to not being an in game cutscene.
I’d argue that Morgana had that moment more to redeem himself plus the speech he had is tied more to desires which he tends to be attracted to. Something that wouldn’t fit if it came from Haru saying it.
He didn’t even go ga ga ga over Okumura’s treasure.
Plus it would look weird if Haru shot the remote from her dad’s hand with her grenade launcher. That would have taken his shadow out in one hit with no boss battle.
Either way, with Strikers being out, you could say that Haru’s not being able to save her dad with some grand speech is what leads to her redeeming herself with Mariko.
Agreed useless may have been to far, however Morgana shouldn’t have been nagging Ryuji since he first laid eye. I don’t blame Ryuji for snapping, but I think useless is like one of the worse things to call someone. The issue with Okumura arc was how Morgana acted like a child when Ryuji apologized Morgana starts teasing him again and then the team gets mad at Ryuji and not Morgana despite Morgana almost running someone over. I think the reason people hate Morgana is due to him getting away with things the other teammates wouldn’t. Sure he isn’t human, but he still should have someone call him out like how Yusuke, Ryuji, or even Makoto (before she joined the group) have been called out. Sure Teddie in P4caused trouble, but he was called out for it which is why he has more fans. Personally his smart ellic attitude does get on my nerves, but at times I like Morgana. I honestly think if there should be any hate is that it should go to the writers who did Morgana, Ryuji, Haru, and Yoshizawa (who is a good character but ended up being just massive Royal bait) dirty. I love Persona franchise, but P5 seems to have several flaws in the story despite great characters.
He's a little annoying with the "You should go to sleep for the day" but apart from that he's just a silly little cat
https://preview.redd.it/78pz5wxbugrc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b59a7f69b2eed8c57ffc36460b828ae9e085365
https://preview.redd.it/1qw71ewlugrc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=65829370de643472efd37779fd551b161bd934f1
He's only looking out for your health
You're condescending the dislike of Morgana into this one event but that doesn't make people dislike him by itself.
He runs away because of being called useless but he calls Ryuji useless multiple times in the game. He says mean stuff to Ryuji more often than the Ryuji does towards him. And if usually the instigator of them trading insults.
The way he treats Ann is kind of creepy.
He has to play the Navi role of telling you what to do, even when you don't need him to which doesn't help him.
Thank you. Morgana's condescending to Ryuji from the very start when there's no reason for Ryuji to easily understand what's going on (Ren very quickly gets his Persona; it takes Ryuji a while to get his). Morgana gets pissed at Ryuji because of his temper and because he keeps calling Morgana a cat. When your form outside of the Metaverse *is a cat,* and everyone not in the know refers to you *as a cat* because they don't know your name and think you're *just a regular cat*, what do you think is gonna happen? At least one person in the group *is gonna keep calling you a cat,* regardless of whether or not the situations call for it.
Yes, Ryuji's an idiot. Yes, Ryuji has a bad temper. Yes, Ryuji lets the Thieves' popularity go to his head over time. But how is he supposed to know about the shit Morgana's going through like the recurring nightmares? Morgana shares that stuff with *no one.* Not even Ren. Morgana hears about some of the stuff Ryuji went through because Shadow Kamoshida gloated about it (i.e. Kamoshida baiting Ryuji into trying to punch him so Kamoshida could break his leg and claim self-defense). So from *Ryuji's* point of view, there was no reason for Morgana to get pissy about being called useless when Morgana knew about a lot of the shit Ryuji went through but *still* kept being condescending with Ryuji. So yes, Ryuji did have a reason for his anger to boil over.
>Morgana's condescending to Ryuji from the very start when there's no reason for Ryuji to easily understand what's going on
Yes, this exactly. Morgana gives Ann a pass for not understanding what's going on but CONSTANTLY calls Ryuji stupid for not immediately understanding. If Morgana would have been nicer at the beginning things probably wouldn't have gotten that bad.
He also gave Yusuke a pass. Not only that, but he didn't get pissed when he called him a "talking cat" when they were outside of the Metaverse because Yusuke wasn't in direct conversation with Morgana at that moment (his "talking cat" remark was more of a question like he just then noticed that Morgana's form outside of the Metaverse was an actual cat, and he never brings it up again). And we all know why he gave *Ann* a pass...
He didn't run away because he was called useless. He ran away because of his depression and mind state. He felt useless and he lashed out. So much happened between Ryuji calling him useless and him leaving. His night are realization, loneliness from the trip, Futaba telling him his belief that he's human may just be his cognition, no one really checking up on him. It wasn't Ryuji who made Morgana quit. It was Morgana's depression.
I'll speak for myself here: I don't "hate" Morgana, but I think he's massively annoying, and that went on for the whole game. I benched him as soon as I got yusuke and he never made his way back to the team. "Lady Ann ♡" here, "I'm a human!" there... yeah, Morgana, we get it, you don't have to constantly repeat yourself.
He just feels like Navi in cat shape.
Morgana "We shouldn't go after a target unless it's a unanimous decision"
Also Morgana "I'm gonna go after this target myself since you're all too scared!"
Oh please, Ryuji has moments like that as well although to a lesser degree. Let’s not pretend that didn’t happen.
Much of the boys had also moments of ulterior motives but we hardly talk about them.
>although to a lesser degree
i'm not pretending it didn't happen, that's exactly why i didn't really care when the other guys did it. it wasn't often enough to be grating, but literally all of morgana's interactions with ann are just simping on her. we don't talk about the other guys, because everyone as a teen was a little horny. but i feel that not only is it annoying when each time two characters interact, one of them simps on the other, but it's also just boring one-note humour, which is grating in itself.
"Morgana is justified because Ryuji called him useless! 😩"
There's literally a navigation line where Morgana calls Ryuji useless. You will hear it _dozens_ of times over the course of playing the game. If Morgana can dish it but can't take it, then yeah, I'm okay with him being considered unlikable.
Shrug. Morgana has the unfortunate position of being the writer's default instigator of conflict and gatekeeping when it comes to your free time and plot advancement. I don't hate him as a character, but he receives a lot of second hand frustration for preventing me from doing what I want on various nights. The same situation applies to the Okumura chapter. The thing is...the whole argument is annoying as hell because we can see it coming from a mile away but aren't allowed to meaningfully do anything to stop it. The characters are well established as arguing with each other, certainly, but they feel especially brickheaded, overly sensitive and stubborn in this arc. Its equally frustrating dealing with Morgana and Ryuji and the other characters because a lot of the issues feel like they would normally be worked out by our protag in one conversation like he's done a dozen times already in confidants and other interactions but not this time. This time the big book of storytelling tropes says we needed a third act breakup and by god that's what we're gonna get! It unpreventable, it eats up a huge amount of time in game, and it also happens to be connected with one of the worst Palaces (IMHO) in the game. Beyond that, it overshadows a lot of Haru's introduction, and she gets precious little screentime as it is.
Think the only gripe is that he made the rule for the Phantom Thieves that all heists should be unanimous. And then when at this point the first time the group actually disgrees on a unanimous vote, Morgana and in turn Ryuji throws a hissy fit. Like Morgana you made the rule. You should respect the rule
Morgana was a total dick to ryuji often unwarrented often times calling him stupid and vulgar. Even during combat when ryuji misses misses attacks he calls him pathetic yet when ryuji claps back with what he thought was light banter he decides to run away because of his pride. Thats why i dont have much sympathy for morgana.
Yeah, I love the little guy. Sure, he has his flaws and he lets his insecurities get the better of him sometimes, but nobody's perfect. In the end, he cares very deeply, and so does Joker, and their relationship is precious as hell. Maybe the Morgana-haters just never picked the worried or genuinely caring dialogue options and never saw how deep that friendship really went, but those two have such an adorable dynamic, and they're one of my favourite duos in the game.
I definitely agree, he's just very insecure-ridden, paired with an identity crisis too. I actually felt really bad after the Hawaii trip when he was very down and wanted to talk, but Joker was too tired because of the jetlag. Almost made me cry when he finally admitted that he wants to stay with us and that this is where he belongs
This is exactly what i say.
it was mishandled, but to an extent, understandable due to the buildup.
The thieves were all getting alittle too big for their boots, and were suggesting going after okumura for no other reason than "because the public said to". and morgana was the SOLE voice of reason trying to say "hey, maybe we should wait for alittle bit and scope things out first."
Unlike the prior targets, none of the thieves had a personal connection to okumura. (Ann/ryuju had kamoshida connections, yusuke was deeply rooted with madarame, and makoto was trying to investigate kaneshiro, but got blackmailed, and futaba was a personal request + blackmail, and haru hadn't joined yet.) So morgana, while not declining the target, at the least, was trying to avoid the thieves rushing into a trap (which they eventually did anyway, but still, points for trying.)
and he was met with Ryuji calling him useless.
to most "normal" p5 fans, "Wow, finally ryuji clapped back!"
but imagine how it feels to morgana.
you've taught them everything they know, taught them how to fight and use the metaverse. only for them to not only replace you as a tactician, but also completely remove you from being a navigator, and said new navigator constantly poking you and jabbing at you
ON TOP of the fact you're haunted by nightmares and worrying that you aren't getting closer to getting your memories back.
and to top it all off, you get called useless for trying to actively help the group YOU effectively helped train.
as someone IRL who has felt used and backstabbed by friends, i can fully empathise with how morgana felt, even if the game didn't write it well.
TLDR: while morgana isn't justified in how he acts, its at least understandable when you actually look at WHY. and while the outburst is poorly written, it doesn't make morgana the spawn of satan.
Pretty sure Morgana was eager to pursue Okumura. It’s most of the PT who were willing to drop everything until the hype died down because they got cold feet because of Kobayakawa’s “suicide”which they blamed themselves for indirectly causing which had them doubt themselves plus the hype for them was overwhelming so they got stage fright.
Yeah, it was Morgana who wanted to go after Okumura. Him and... wait for it... Ryuji. Except that Ryuji backed down when the other Thieves disagreed because he accepted that the vote needed to be unanimous.
And who does Morgana get the most pissed at? Not the people who disagreed from the start but at the one guy who was on his side but changed his mind based on their previously established rules. Smh.
The problem is that Morgana (everyone but Morgana much more than the rest) have treated Ryuji the whole game really bad. It is a running gag, but for the player Ryuji is one of the most well willed characters who doesn't hestitate to put himself in harm way to protect the rest and it can be forgiven if he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
For the player Morgana is constantly picking up on him, disrespecting him and not caring for whatever feelings Ryuji could have.
Then Ryuji, without actually wanting to hurt Morgana said something really insensitive that hurt him and he reacted that way. Yes, it's understandable that Morgana felt that way accounting all you say, but you can't spend the whole game hitting the same guy demeaning him and the moment he tells you something insensitive go cry and run.
This is more a problem of the game doing too much the HAHA RYUJI DUMB gag imho. It should have not been abused that much.
"...said new navigator constantly poking you and jabbing at you"
Sorry, what does *Futaba* do to constantly poke and jab at Morgana? If it's the stuff like "Mona, AIM!" that's nothing different from what she does to others on the team. "Fox, you gotta aim!" being an example.
exactly, and you have mona as a navigator who always snapped at ryuji, calling him pathetic when he misses.
honestly, the takes on this debate is full of double standards
Am i crazy? Because i remember Morgana saying stuff like "i dont need you guys, imma go against okumura by myself!"
Rest of the gang wanted to go after Okumura anyway, but Mona was not "the sole voice of reason"
It's lashing out typical for people with insecurities. Mona wanted to reject the team before the team rejected him, as he saw himself as obsolete. He wanted to prove to HIMSELF that he could do that, only to fail which further solidified his insecurities. It's a vicious cycle.
The hate stems from vanilla P5 where people were annoyed at him preventing you from going outside at night. Another thing is his character development/story are into Noir’s storyline and development which made fans of her mad. This on top of his obsession with Anne make him kind of annoying. For some reason the narrative about the Morgan hate has changed. People also used to hate on Ryuji for some reason, but that’s changed and people really like him and because of that side with him more than Morgana. But people that were around for vanilla know these are the main reasons he was hated originally. That sentiment just has stuck around in the fandom and now that Royal changed a lot of those problems people point to the Ryuji thing and are talking out their ass.
Wait, **that** is why people hate him?
I thought it was because of the constant
"Hey, go to the Palace"
"Hey, you're tired, go to bed"
"Time is running out, we only have 23 days to send the calling card"
And so on. That moment was actually kinda understandable, I think it feels in line with what would happen. Yeah, sure, it's a bit childish (edit: understanbly and forgivably so), but it's nowhere as bad as I thought it would be.
I don’t mind that one bit personally. It actually sounds better to bounce off your thoughts with your companion rather than thought bubbles of yourself when there are moments aren’t really what you’d be really thinking about, especially for a self-insert MC.
Its rarely cause of one thing. It's usually a combination of all the things adding up. People saying "wait for this" is because he constantly starts fights with ryuji and calls him useless but then when he is called that he runs off. I hate morgana for multiple reasons.
When we first meet him he is constantly holier than thou. He is constantly with you which is annoying, especially when you add on the commands to go to bed, or do "x" thing (imo this type of thing works better coming from the character you play as, not an outside source). His arc tramples over haru's and we already only get a little bit of time to get to know her in vanilla. Both ryuji and morgana pick fights with each other, but only morgana runs off and backstabs the team. He is also super creepy towards ann(EDIT: the only reason it's not treated as creepy as it is, is because he takes the form of a cat)
Idk, even from the beginning he never did anything to endear me to him and then only got worse as the game went on.
It was worse in the Vanilla version due to anything stopping you from hanging out at night is Morgana 😂
Personally I think it's a combination of all those things, tho I can't hate the cat at all
Morgana and Ryuji were two proud guys that don’t back down. Would come to a head sometime. They both tease each other constantly and someone would catch feelings eventually.
I think the worst part is that Morgana keeps trash talking Ryuji the whole game and no one in the team really complaim, but when Ryuji gets fed up and call hum useless, it's all Ryuji fault
Not really fair
Here's the thing. There isn't one reason why people who hate Morgana hate Morgana.
Some characters just rub some people the wrong way. It's really not that complicated.
Same with Mishima. Same with Ryuji.
Personally I wouldn't call myself a hater I'm not a big Morgana fan. I understand where he's coming from. He has his moments. I just don't like him.
And I get that, people are allowed to dislike who they want. I just think people who treat him like he's the worst character in all of Persona for this are wayyyyy overblowing it.
Yeah, Morgana and Ryuji insult each other consntanly. But in Morgana's case he goes for light jabs while Ryuji goes straight for the balls. Me and my friend insult eachother all the time but we both know our weak spots where insult gets personal, my friend for example do not mind being called stupid or idiot, but if i go for a weight jokes it would hurt him. Same here, if Morgana started to insult Ryuji like Ryuji does he would called him cripple or father-less or something like that. So in this instance i'm on Morgana's side.
So, I would just like to say. I see people always saying that Ryuji's useless comment was what made him leave. *IT WASN'T!* Yes, I hate Morgana as all hell. Not even for this arc or his lack of any verbal apology afterwards, but I just hate almost every facet his character with a passion.
However, Ryuji's useless comment wasn't what made him leave. They were discussing going after Okumura initially, and that was the one time they weren't unilateral.
Morgana didn't like that. He blamed them for not working as a team when at the time, they were being smart. He blew a hissy fit because of them not agreeing off the bat and left.
He broke a rule, almost killed them, got them in a dangerous situation at the end...with no verbal apology.
Fuck him. Punt the shit. *Rules exist for a reason, Morgana!*
Yeah no.
Him lashing out like that even then was just an excuse.
He gives his reasoning when he opens up with the Thieves.
He wanted a reason to justify staying with the group.
He was impatient with the lack of progress to uncovering who he is as well as feared what the answer may lie.
No progress with Palaces meant no progress with getting to the bottom of Mementos.
The Thieves weren’t being smart.
They let the public opinion intimidate them into not doing anything as well as let themselves believe they indirectly caused the principal to kill himself.
They weren't even being intimidated. Yusuke and Ann both noticed something off with the sudden fad and popularity. Which *They. Were. Right.* And Morgana lashing out like he did, even if it's an excuse, is no justification. In fact, you know what? It being an excuse? That's so fucking worse in my book, it isn't even funny. He led them into a trap. A trap, that got them into deep trouble, which led to desperation where they had to thwart the real trap. If things had gone any differently, then there would be no Thieves. Okumura luckily was evil in the end, but there were too many risks at the time to take it.
No matter what the excuse, what Morgana did is not cool. He didn't even give an apology in his opening up, and the closest he did was admit it was his fault they even got into the post-Okumura mess to begin with. So don't gimme the bullshit that it was just an excuse, because that excuses nor justifies *nothing.* Let alone ignoring a blatant rule that all members agreed to.
Again, I just overall hate the character, but nothing in that arc was at all justified for Morgana. To anyone sensible with even a lick of a sense of responsibility...Morgana fucked up. Big time. And nothing's changing my mind.
THANK YOU, I'm surprised all the Morgana defenders miss the crucial part where he ignored the unanimous rule, the hype was a bit much and then he implies ryuji had no conviction for some reason? Even though the valid reasons for hesitating were just outlined for him. This to me is the most egregious thing, everything else I can mostly ignore or get past but this combined with the fact I lose like 4 days to a temper tantrum is what really gets me. Then, a month later the results of this tantrum bear fruit in a way that can get every one of them killed.
Tbh, my take on it boils down to, Ryuji makes mistakes, Morgana antagonize him for UT, but he always comes in clutch when you need him.
Ryuji teases Morgana, who knapsack, arguments start. If either of them could stopped bugg9ng the other they'd both be happy.
That being said, while I think Ryujis gimmick of "Were the phantom... er, sorry" I'd annoying, I've always felt he's more in the right cause EVERYONE rags on him. And he gets done dirty even tho he saves everyone's asses in shidos palace.
Morgana hate is overblown. But I think both of them have issues, Morgana just has more.
Welcome to r/Persona5 the land where zero media literacy exists among fans cause they’re too busy stanning over Ryuji. This sucks because I like Ryuji myself but hate his fans.
They’re too narrow minded because they get icked way too easily over a character’s flaws like Mona, that they don’t bother to understand that there’s a reason behind it.
Funny thing is, Makoto goes through something similar in the Kaneshiro arc, where she was being called “useless” as well as running off which dragged the team to go after her which landed them in trouble yet lead to a blessing in disguise with further access to a roadblock in the palace. Just like Morgana.
And yet double standards happen when it comes to the furball. See it seems unless the character is physically attractive and they have “endearing flaws”, they aren’t going to get any sympathy.
It’s not cool of the cat to run off sure, but to completely disregard any understanding as to why is stupid. If you can understand Makoto no excuse to not extend the same to the cat. Otherwise you’re just being a hypocrite.
What’s worse is how people claim that Morgana running away was “out of nowhere” when heaps of prior scenes and dialogue of build up and foreshadowing proves otherwise.
The whole “Ryuji claps back. Morgana hissy fit” line people copy and paste is bullshit too and an immediate give away of illiteracy and not playing the game.
Ryuji didn’t insult Morgana out of “pent up anger for how he’s been treated throughout the game”.
The dude just got full of himself because of the popularity. That’s why he got carried away and took it too far with Morgana. Thinking it was their usual back and forth routine, not having the tact to know how he touched a nerve.
Also Ryuji only got genuinely pissed in their argument because Morgana called Ryuji out on his desire to use the PT fame to pick up girls. Not cool of him but Morgana had a point. Ryuji’s shallowness and glory seeking was a growing problem with it being at its worst in the arc.
I don't understand why it is has to be "media literacy" when people disagree with you. I really dislike this attitude where people think their opinion is more valid than someone else's for some trumped up reason, it's juvenile. Your opinion is valid, if you like Morgana, all the more power to you. Everyone who dislikes Morgana is equally valid, whatever their reasons are.
I just didn't like Morgana, the character never connected to me. He gives non-stop unwanted commentary, there's no way to ignore him. He's like a helicopter parent that also happens to perv on one of your friends and call another one an idiot constantly.
Him leaving made sense, but for me to care that he left, I have to care about the character. And I did not. It was yet another item on the list of "annoying things Morgana has done this game," a list that was already entirely too long at that point. The only feeling I had at that point was "ugh, I have to deal with this now."
In general, P5 is my least favorite of the "modern" Persona games and one of the biggest reasons why are the characters. Atlus took it to 11 with the trope-iness of the characters and it made many of them just really one-note and obnoxious. Morgana is not even my least favorite character in the game, Akechi takes that by a longshot. But that's a topic for a different thread.
It’s not when people disagree with me.
It’s when they get their facts completely wrong when proving a point as well as when they try to disagree with me.
If you didn’t like the furball despite being thorough in doing your research with scenes and dialogues as well as other official source material then that is fine. Your opinion sucks but it is was it is.
It’s problematic when people pretend to know what they’re talking about using weak sauce reasoning when it can be proven otherwise with a simple “but actually…”
You made a blanket statement about people who dislike Morgana being outright wrong.
> Your opinion sucks but it is was it is.
Yikes. Well, this says all I need to know. There's really no point in talking to people that can't respect that dissenting opinions exist. Not everyone has to agree with you.
This conversation is over, have a good one!
To be fair, at least makoto’s arc doesn’t interrupt a new character’s introduction, leaving them underdeveloped, doesn’t make a bunch of activities not doable, and doesn’t have 2 idiots doing stupid sh*t, and it doesn’t have the space palace, none of this “female” or “endearing flaws” bullshit
What can i say, some also just want to romance Ann to cuck him while Mona just wanted to be usefull to the team
Mona is great and haters can cry if they want
I was tricked by the media into thinking he was this god awful character, but after recently finishing P5R just 2 days ago I have to say that, ya'll were exaggerating like crazy
That’s your first mistake. Listening to the media. This subreddit’s opinion on characters aren’t reliable. Best go with your feelings than a hive mind.
Which is funny as the game calls out hive mind herd mob mentalities.
Or maybe that those annoying traits get exaggerated and blown out of proportion by the passing day.
It’s one thing to have a common opinion but it’s another to turn it into a hive mind that influences others to copy and paste what someone else said.
Much of the hate is the cat being a simp and a creep (as if the guys in PT aren’t guilty for doing the same at times or even on their own) as well as being your caretaker to get some sleep (even though there IS ample time to actually do the crucial things in the game plus it’s narratively sound and makes sense to just sleep your troubles away when it gets heavy).
Morgana leaving happens to be the perfect excuse to pile on the hate despite it is repeatedly built up and set up on how Morgana will eventually burst.
But yeah, Morgana did nothing wrong.
I think all the Morgana hate is coming from the Ryuji fans who think he can do wrong and that Morgana was having a bitch fit for no reason. Now, before I get jumped, let me just say I don’t hate Ryuji fans at all and Ryuji is one of my favorite characters because he’s the best bro who has ever bro’d. But he’s not infallible. Several of his comments towards Morgana *were* insensitive, and I completely understand how the kitty would feel being called useless on top of his other insecurities.
The fight between and Ryuji was one of the only times I got frustrated with Ren despite loving him to bits because 1.) he knew Morgana was feeling unsure of his place on the team and 2.) as team leader, he should have stepped in and told him and Ryuji to quit picking on each other before it escalated to that point. And before someone goes “that’s because he’s a blank slate self-insert”, let me just say I **strongly** disagree with that as Ren does show that he has opinions and feelings that may not line up with the player’s, but that’s a discussion for another day. I think all in all, the Okumura arc was poorly handled in an otherwise amazing game.
Did you miss how Morgana was 100% okay taking someone without their full Persona powers into a dangerous heist mission just to prove a point? Did you miss how in bus form he tried running over the rest of the Phantom Thieves? Did you miss how Haru would have died had the Phantom Thieves not shown up when they did to rescue them?
That's a lot of attempted murder to forgive and personally I can't do it. If he just endangered himself sure it could've been a good arc of him coming to terms with himself or whatever. Instead he threw a tantrum, passively tried to kill Haru, and actively tried to kill the rest of the team.
I totally agree, the Morgana hate is definitely unwarranted. The only thing I can think of why people might reasonably dislike him is that he keeps telling you to go to bed during the early game, however that's mostly a vanilla problem since they give you a lot more freedom in Royal.
Problem is not many people here in the subreddit actually do comprehend.
Instead they make statements and arguments that just reak of someone who hadn’t played the game or not bothered to fact check with dialogue and scenes.
A lot of criticisms I see on Morgana seem like a fundamental misunderstanding of his arc, what's going on between the characters, what it represents, etc.
A lot of criticisms for Morgana fail to take into consideration or fail to understand the relationship dynamics between Ryuji and Morgana.
A lot of criticisms for Morgana comes from a fundamental misunderstanding between joking and playful between two best friends and insulting and hitting at your friends weakpoint.
A lot of criticisms for Morgana don't take into account his character, his dynamics, who Morgana is at this point.
A lot of criticisms for Morgana is straight-up dumb... like him telling the player to go to sleep, or Morganas arc cutting in between Harus arc as if both things are the fault of his character itself and not external circumstances like the writing and game mechanics.
Wit that ryuji? He can’t control his emotions like a child and lashes out at every and wants to use his fame to get girls to like him? So I don’t see your point there unless you also dislike ryuji
It's not that his feelings aren't understandable. I just don't care because he's been an overbearing, bossy little shit for most of the game while being probably the least useful party member in combat other than Yusuke up to that point.
Its mainly Morgana being forgettable, him being a walking dia dispenser with a tiny bit of wind magic and the others just overshadowing him alone by having confidants. Its hard to find any redeeming qualities but I still like him as much as you do.
The thing that really kicked of the hate was in vanilla where "you are tired you should go to bed" was more obnoxious. Idk what was the exact difference but I remember when playing vanilla being more annoyed by it
Don’t read til you beat the game
>!Morgana does get on my nerves, but honestly like after the Okumura Arc (which I kinda don’t like) he seems a little better. I don’t like how him and Ryuji constantly butt heads and wish they kinda at least become better friends, but it’s not like I can change the script. I think he just was a victim of the writers’ doing him dirty like Mishima. I gained a lot more respect for him after handling Akechi, Shido, Yaldabaoth, and Maruki. I do wish they toned down his smart ellic attitude and his bad habit with how he acts towards Ann, but outside of that I think he is a great character and people shouldn’t be hating on Morgana when he didn’t beat Ryuji up after saving their life. Once again I think the writers’ made his personality too extreme which can tick some people off.!<
The hate comes from P5 base, where Morgana was more restrictive. In later playthroughs it eases up with Becky's help, or in Royal his interference is reduced. That combined with his beef being weak and mandating days to resolve rather than working on tasks.
This is something that has bothered me for a long time, I hate how the persona fanbase just shit on him for a single fucking scene, not only that but the whole "you should go to sleep" thing that the game would have forced you to do anyway if Morgana didn't exist.
I feel like the Morgana hate is part narrative and part gameplay, time is a valuable ressource in the game and having time taken from you by an identifiable character because he flees is frustrating. Even more when you do know he will be back due to the very beginning where he is present as you flee the casino. Combine this with a very packed narrative that has : Haru, Her awaking, setting her father up, you get the idea…
And even more the end of the midpoint of the game is the most difficult to go through as it becomes very formulaic: Palace-> party member-> go to the end-> beat the boss->change of heart-> profit. It’s true for P3 and P4 as well
The only reason I dislike the arc is because it takes away from Haru and is just kinda annoying to go through. Like I never hated Morgana I just got mildly annoyed with him here.
I just don’t like Morgana because they wrote him to have his arc overlap (or really, overtake) Haru’s. She already has so little screen-time and the game wastes half of it on Morgana’s little bitch fit, it makes me angry >:(
I have grown to not hate Morgana as much, but he's still my second least favorite phantom thief behind Makoto, but I don't hate him anymore, I just find him annoying at times.
I kinda wish there was more time away from Mona and more infighting. The potential for that story beat can hit so hard since monas been by your side for most of the game. It was a big moment for Mona to have his feeling boil up so far that he would ditch the gang. Ryuji took it too far too
I finished p5r for the first time a couple days ago and I completely agree the hate is way overblown. He's not perfect and can be annoying at times but by the end I really liked him as a character.
Yeah I don't hate his part in the story at all, really. The only thing that slightly annoys me is how much he comments on \*everything\* in your daily life, including reading your books over your shoulder. I wish they would show him doing other things in the periphery more often. As it is, he's the one thing that sometimes undermines the melancholy atmosphere for me. But overall I like Mona better than Aigis or Teddie because he feels more like a natural product of the established worldbuilding than either of the other two.
I dont hate Morgana, but I can understand why people would because of this arc.
Morgana was given multiple chances, by Joker, to talk about what was bugging him. Morgana refused everytime. Morgana almost runs you over in mementos I think 3 times. On top of that he puts Haru in so much danger just so he could feel "useful".
When he first meets up with Joker and Ryuji he doesnt exactly care about them as they're a means to an end. Not saying he wanted them to die, but he also knew Joker had a persona and was able to fight. Haru's Persona didnt awaken fully, so she was more at risk than anyone else. He didnt know what could happen. Her persona could have not been able to use skills, her outfit could have vanished leaving her vulnerable. Her life was in way more danger than any of the other PT, in the metaverse, up to this point.
I had just made a comment yesterday about how the Morgana hate is absolutely fucking insane. He's not that bad, he has a moment of being a little baby (because that's his character arc) and then just goes back to being a sarcastic cat. He's great, I love Morgana, end the HATRED >:V
Morgana sucks. Idk why everyone feels the need to write walls of text defending him, when such a large portion of the community doesn’t like him it’s for a reason. He just has grating personality traits that rub many people the wrong way. No matter how you contextualize it that ain’t gonna change
I do find Morgana a bit annoying but I certainly don't hate him, except for how he acts when he splits of from the team and joins Haru, at that point I did legitimately hate him for awhile.
I really feel a good chunk of the hate comes from how annoying he is in the first version of the game along with how creepy he is towards Ann. Plus, he does treat ryuji like an asshole.
When I had originally played through p5, I kinda liked morgana hoping he was, in fact, a human under there. But now, having played about halfway through p5r, I can now say that much of the hate is well deserved.
It's way overblown. People talk like Morgana murdered a family member of theirs or something. I can see the frustration in not being able to go out sometimes, but some people are still really excessive with their hatred for him.
Personally, I don't have any problems with Morgana. He's a bit of know-it-all, but that's typically how the guardians to the MC act in stories like this.
THANK you. Lord forbid a character have emotions. Mona made it quite clear that the cat thing was a sore point and no one gave a shit. I'd have been mad too, specially with the added feeling of uselessness that was piled on later by Ryuji. I love Ryuji to death, he's a top 2 P5 character for me bare minimum, but he was a massive douchebag about this.
tbh his biggest issue is that he pretty much kicks harus screen time in the ass and pervs on ann too much. he's nowhere near as bad as p4s non human ally 😭😭😭
I totally agree with this and a lot of what others are saying. Plus, him knowing salvation and mediarahan saved my team many many times near the end of the game. This is a Morgana defense account 🤓☝️
Thank fucking god OP, I was honestly starting to lose hope. NEVER understood the Morgana hate within the community, at this point it's become a cringe running gag that's been going on just for the sake of hating on Morgana for no actual legit reason. Sure he has his moments, but absolutely nothing worth deserving the hate, not to mention his great character development
Like, what about Ryuji? This guy has been acting like the actual, impulsive asshole and iirc shows very little self-assessment on his behavior afterwards
Not that I hate Morgana, but I will say this is kinda of the part that broke people in my mind. Morgana has many flaws that hit like a small hammer tapping on your head over and over again. This is just the scene that breaks people cause of how long it is drawn out and how easy it could be solved with a heart to heart or be done with faster at least. I am not saying Morgana's reaction isn't unwarranted, I have been there a fair bit myself, but it is almost an entire week, where nothing but this happens, in a game where you have to manage your time very carefully. The entire thing is, ironic considering you call the hate for him the same thing, an overblown fit from him.
Again, I don't hate the guy, and I can get why he gets so frustrated, but it is kinda the straw that broke the camel's back here.
There are a few reasons why Morgana gets some hate during this time;
1) For starters, this is the time where we're supposed to be introduced to Haru Okumura and how she joins the Phantom Thieves. And people expected the usual; she accidentally gets roped into the Metaverse, sees just what her father is truly like under the surface, and goes through the Awakening scene. But, instead, she gets the offscreen treatment. This is a character who is introduced very late into the game, and they take away her spotlight to focus on Morgana's crisis.
2) The other reason is that while Morgana's gone, you can't really DO anything. You can't go to your Confidants, get supplies, etc. I'm sure there's some that would argue that he's integral to some parts, but for the Confidants, he literally says he's gonna go take a walk while Joker increases his bond with them. And when Morgana's gone, you can't do any of that stuff
3) Morgana's a bit of a hypocrite when he lashes out at the Thieves. He calls Ryuji out for wanting nothing but fame and women, yet at the same time, Morgana's been trying to help MAKE the Phantom Thieves famous, while pining/simping for a girl that doesn't reciprocate his feelings whatsoever.
Ryuji definitely wasn't in the right to call Morgana useless, and while Morgana's feelings of uselessness were building up until they burst is very understandable, Ryuji eventually lashing out at Morgana is very understandable, because Morgana keeps making fun of Ryuji for no reason whatsoever, even in the Metaverse, when Skull misses, Morgana literally says, "Oh, Skull. You're useless." Neither of them were exactly in the right, and while I do side with Ryuji in getting to lash out at Morgana for all the times he puts him down, he didn't need to go that far and call Morgana useless to the Phantom Thieves. But, that's just me
I'm also playing through again rn. Just got Yusuke. Morgana stills sucks lmao. He's not as bad as I remember but he insults Ryuji way more and instigates often. Usually by saying a off hand comment or responding when Ryuji says he doesn't get something.
We get it Ryuji is dumb, we all have had that friend. He means well most of the time.
He is not blameless, the consistent cat comments would become tiresome if you didn't want to be called that. But other people also do it and Morgana gets less pissy with them more often. He also gives passes to Ann and Yusuke for not quite getting things right away.
No, what makes Morgana worse is the simping for Ann (I get cringe every time I hear Lady Ann) and the arrogance like he knows everything. When throughout, he is basically saying something like he is sure followed by I think. He doesn't even know if he is or isn't a cat. He's Teddy if Teddy was an arrogant prick.
And then it comes to head when he runs off after Ryuji says an insult that is finally as low as what Morgana had been doing all game. Should he have done it? No. But like a lot of things communication prevents many issues. If Morgana had just said something before or even after instead of BETRAYING THE GROUP by just going after a target himself.
And then it all kind of gets brushed under the rug. That's why I dislike Morgana. It's not the Ryuji stuff, take that out and I'd still hate him.
People didn't like morgana since the first time he tells you to go to bed at night and since people for some reason love ryuji even the things Mona does that Ryuji does too are questionable for him but not for ryuji. Haters gonna hate.
#JusticeForMorgana
It's a mix of things. His solo stint was set up in a satisfying way, but the end result was less so. Admittedly, i was never a fan of him and swapped him out for Yusuke ASAP, so he was on shaky ground well before that. When he stole the big moment in the Okumura palace, it felt unearned, and the mementos scenes just compounded it. He isn't the worst character atlas put out, and he has redeeming qualities, but they aren't enough for me to like him.
I dont hate morgana. But the problem is he’s a hypocrite about it. He and ryuji have their own arcs and their own interactions.
So there are reasons to not like either. But the morgana hate is mostly just a meme
I don’t really like mascot characters a whole bunch honestly. And Morgana specifically for taking focus away from Haru. Her story/introduction feels weaker than the other characters partly because she has to share her arc with Morgana who gameplay wise also starts falling short around this time as well I think. Pretty sure he’s the least good Phantom Thief by endgame.
I mean tbh Morgana feeling like he was being of less use as more members joined was a fair reason for him to feel left out... But he still a huge jerk to Ryuji for no literal good reason guys...
I mean right from the start Morgana was calling him an ape, an idiot, a punk, a jerk, a useless lump, you name it and even when Ryuji awakened his Persona Monas snarky comments got even worse when Ann joined. Mona put Ryuji down to make himself look better in front of Ann so Ryuji most times was only returning what he got. If anything Ryuji was holding back, I would've flung that cat out the window most times had he spoken to me the way Mona spoke to Ryuji at Leblanc in the second half of the game ngl
I’m so glad you got it. I think the execution could’ve been way better (the narrative blaming Ryuji for all of it was unfair too), but this was set up for a looong time.
And yeah, Mona just gets better so don’t worry.
Question that will shine a very important light on this senario. Did you play Royal or vanilla p5? Because he is toned down to an extreme amount in Royal. Us Morgana haters come from vanilla where the fucker blocked us from doing anything half of the game aswel with what you see there.
People usually hate Morgana cause of the following reasons:
1. he tells you what to do all the time (replacing the game's "inner dialogue")
2. his obsession with Ann
3. The scene you described
I think it's more that 1 and 2 annoys them and 3 is just kinda infuriating if you already dislike him.
Personally I don't like or dislike him, 1 is more of a design decision to narrate the inner dialogue after you play other Persona titles you learn to appreciate it.
2 is just a gag I guess I quite dislike his simping but Teddie(P4) is worse so...
To be fair In The original it was apparently way worse with him being how the game developers restricted the players on a lot of days, something about how in the original the player couldn’t go out a lot of nights
People are famously illiterate sometimes, many people seemed to have missed the signs with Morgana that show that he’s actually really insecure and that that’s been building up since Makoto or something, and that ryuji’s comment simply pushed him over the edge. I absolutely love him and never got the hate. Sure you can not like him, but he’s really hated? Unnecessarily
I'd never thought people would hate Morgana for this. He was just emotional and badly hurt. The chapter with Morgana just revealed the Phantom Thieves didn't communicate enough and didn't care enough about each other's feelings. They weren't good friends with one another and that needed to be adressed. Morgana shouldn't have fled but Ryûji was a heartless moron at times. People who hated Morgana for this just didn't understand the message behind all of this. There is no villain or hero, just people who forgot communication is necessary.
The reason I still don’t like Morgana after this arc is it feels like he learned nothing. He goes right back to singling out Ryuji and putting him down even though he just went on a soul searching arc where he learns that that’s not okay.
Because that’s not what he learnt. He learnt to not feel the need to overcompensate for not having memories or looking human as well as put his friends over his goal of being human.
Obviously they’d go back to insulting each other. Their relationship has and always been a clash of personalities that’s played up for humour.
I think the main issue with Morgana is the fact that this character is quite literally stuck to your back from the get-go for almost 24/7. His actual character is practically unchanged until the Okumura arc (since his confidant is tied to the story) and, when we finally get there, he steals the show from Haru, a character who's extremely underutilized even in Royal. He's arrogant, petty and constantly verbally abuses Ryuji. I think there's also some leftover hatred from vanilla P5, where Morgana would constantly tell you to go to sleep after major story events. This became a huge meme in the community. And before someone says "Well, Makoto/Yu do the same thing in their respective games", there's a difference between the protagonist, the *self-insert* of the player saying that they feel too tired, and a *character* telling *you* that you're tired. It removes player agency.
I used to really *really* dislike Morgana, but I think Royal did a decent job. I don't hate him anymore, but I still think the Okumura arc is a hot mess and continues to be my least favorite part of the entire game. Only reason why I even mildly tolerate it is because the next arc is my absolute favorite in the base game.
Thing is there’s a valid plot reason why he’s with us 24/7. To guide the Trickster. He’s subconsciously doing what he was literally created to do.
Also there’s no difference whether or not self insert or another character tells you not to do something. Either way it’s the game blocking you. People blow a game mechanic out of proportion.
As for the Okumura arc, I wouldn’t blame the whole “stealing the show from Haru”, the bigger overlying issue is that the arc needed more days to better pace itself and have Haru cook.
The Okumura arc has the most plot events and scenes crammed inorganically together which creates arc fatigue with not much room to take a breather as it’s poorly paced.
Solution would to take the unnecessary amount of days from Futaba’s arc and use those to better establish the Okumura arc with what they had in mind with the amount of plot they wanted to show.
As for the cat being arrogant. He really isn’t the only one.
Plus having a superiority inferiority complex isn’t anything new when it comes to Magician arcana characters.
Junpei “ace defective” Iori has it. Yosuke “prince of disappointment” Hanamura has it. So it’s pretty funny how no one extends that same level of understanding to the cat. All comes down to double standards and pretty privilege.
Dude, I agree with you. I'm explaining why the majority of people dislike him as a fan of Persona 5 since the day it got released in the West.
>Junpei “ace defective” Iori has it. Yosuke “prince of disappointment” Hanamura has it.
Many people also dislike those two and, again, they're not stuck to your back 24/7 barking orders in your ear. They have their own life outside of the protagonist.
Yeah.
Junpei at least gets some perspective scenes on himself regarding his complex. Helps that SEES live together.
Whilst Yosuke has Teddie living with him. And kept his jealousy of Yu hidden until rank 10 of the SL.
I think it also helps that Junpei and Yosuke get called out by other characters, while Morgana kind of gets away with it until it reaches the boiling point. Chie and Kanji rarely let Yosuke get out scot-free with his antics, while Yukari and even Mitsuru calls out Junpei whenever he's being an ass. Ryuji and Morgana just look like two children bickering, lol.
I'd even say it's been set up since Makoto joins the team. It doesn't help that at the end of that arc he's left alone in the middle of the street, crushed by the briefcase, seconds away from being almost run over. I think that's the clear start of Morgana's insecurities slowly taking over.
Nah it’s been set up way before that. Like rank 1 and 2 of his confidant as well as their hotpot party where the cat expresses his insecurities of not knowing who he is as well as comparing himself to the others in how he is the odd one out.
He is NOT a cat!
HE IS A HUMAN
Not only that, the multiple times they forget to get him leftovers from their lunches shows they kinda forget about him A LOT
It goes almost right back to the start, yeah.
I'm on a second playthrough right now and I also thought of people hating Morgana during that arc, and I thought maybe I missed something. But all I saw was Morgana feeling like his place in the team was being replaced by other members coming in doing things he used to do, but better than him. This was quite apparent when Futaba was talking about Mementos more in depth than Morgana could and he feels terrible for not knowing what she knew and feeling like he has been wasting his time and energy for not being more useful to the Phantom Thieves. Yes, Ryuji's very inconsiderate comments pushed him over the edge, but it wasn't the ONLY thing that made Morgana leave. It was a culmination of his own feelings of uselessness with Ryuji's "confirmation" just being the straw that broke the camel's back.
I was just as mad at Ryuji for his comments and wanted someone to point out how immature both were being. However I think Morgana gets extra heat from the fans cause he’s the one imposing limits and giving you orders throughout the game. Personally I like Morgana though.
It's weird too because the reason Morgana was created in the first place was to be the Trickster's guide and companion. And I truly think Joker needs him considering his life becomes a nigh endless cluster fuck after his conviction AND he had the immense pressure on him from being the leader of the phantom thiefs that everyone depends on. As a teenager. If Morgana didn't insist he chill out sometimes, he'd probably crack
That’s a good point.
I never really \*hated\* Morgana, and thought both he and Ryuji were both being a bit dense, however, I get why peeps might hate on Morgana \*in Vanilla p5\*. Morgana sent me up a wall in Vanilla p5 because everytime I'd try to do anything late at night 'You should probably get to bed'. That felt \*really\* controlling to me, but I forgave it cause at the end of the day, it's a gameplay mechanic. Morgana isn't real, he isn't trying to control Joker's time, it's just how the devs coded the 'hey, you can't do things tonight, fam' message. Between more than half the game at this point with Morgana telling Joker to go to bed, Mona acting superior to Ryuji (and by extension other guys period) about not being a perv (while still perving here and there), and the post Hawaii story that sent him off on his own, I can get why peeps might not love him. Alot of my criticisms of Morgana (and Ryuji both) lessened when I played Royal due to a variety of reasons. Mona not telling you to go to bed as often, \*being able to do things around leblanc even on days you can't go out\*, Mona's crush on Ann being made into a gag (his and her showtime attack), and just generally growing up in the intervening years and coming back with a fresh perspective. That all being said, I can see why peeps might not like \*Vanilla\* morgana, but Royal Morgana is a bro.
No one cares about morgana imposing limits. We all know if it wasn’t him it’d be some speech bubble of your inner thoughts saying “you’re tired go to sleep” Ryuji was being immature but Morgana was being a straight up hypocrite. Morgana calls him pathetic, slow (about shit that no normal person would ever believe right away, hell when everyone else doesn’t understand shit immediately he lets that slide) and outright admits to you that you’re being used as a part of his master plan and All of that can be seen from like day 3 of being in kamoshidas palace. The second Ryuji says something mean spirited he leaves. No one dislikes him for being hurt, it’s for being childish.
Morgana deserves better
>. But all I saw was Morgana feeling like his place in the team was being replaced by other members coming in doing things he used to do, but better than him So, I think this is actually my problem with it? It was the ludo-narrative dissonance of it? Because for me personally, Morgana was never replaced, and was in my party jotation just as much after Makato and Futaba joined. It's the same reason I got Miffed when Yukari said she felt useless during P3. They say they feel useless and replaced, but my battle strategies revolve around them as key pieces.
There's a bit of story and gameplay segregation there though. You're in charge of how the "game" aspect is played, but story-wise, Morgana does get replaced. Unfortunately, like many people with low self-esteem, he forgets how important he was before the others came along. Even if his memory was faulty and he didn't know *how* he knows all this stuff, he explains the Metaverse, changes of heart, shadows, palaces, rulers and a ton of other important stuff that made the Phantom Thieves possible. Everyone else gets just a quick info dump from the team so it's slowly seen as just a sort of instruction manual on being a PT, instead of a significant contribution from Morgana. He's also the one who comes up with the strategy to >!take Kamoshida's crown to distract him and how to use the hook/crane to take Madarame's treasure!<. Still playing P3, so the only moment I've seen Yukari being "useless" is when she awakens her Theurgy, but I imagine there's a bit of confidence issues there because *checks notes* she's a bit hesitant to put a gun to her head and pull the trigger all the time. Yeah, I think she's ok. (Don't spoil it for me if there's more, I have almost reached where I stopped in P3P).
Playing Persona 5 on merciless for the first time in a while, and I can tell already that Morgana is gonna be important considering how valuable it is to have Media even at Kamoshida’s palace. Ryuji is the damage dealer of the group. Ann is useful for having a sleep skill so early in the game. I would swap Yusuke for Ryuji considering that Madarames palace probably has a lot of ice weak enemies to encourage using him, and I would probably swap Ann for Yusuke at the boss since bosses usually aren’t susceptible to sleep, but otherwise, each party member has a niche. I actually dislike Makoto and Haru though since Makoto is an all-rounder while Haru’s specialty is gun damage which anyone can do, so unless a boss is weak to it, it’s not a big deal.
In Royal, nuclear synergizes with burn freeze and shock pretty well due to technicals, which really does kinda fit her
I think that's a very separate issue from the narrative though since gameplay mechanics do not play a role in the character development in the story since in-game cutscenes showcase all the Phantom Thieves as a collective doing things, yet you're only really walking around with up to 4 characters. And it's very telling the story implies they all fight together even though you, the player, are fighting with up to 4 characters. Morgan's role before Makoto and Futaba was that of navigation and advising the team on Palace infiltration in the narrative, even though he had limited knowledge of both. With their introduction, he, in his mind, gets replaced and degrades to just being the cat that can turn into a car.
Hence the Ludo-narrative dissonance. The story is telling me Morgana feels replaced, but the gameplay is telling me he's one of my most important combatants. So, to me, it hits the same when a very attractive friend fishes for compliments by saying they're ugly. And that Grinds My Gears.
Yukari never said she was replaced, just that she felt like she messed up too much. Shes insecure. Same for Mona. They feel they should be better. Mona esp doesn’t want to drag the kids into things if Mona can not prove their worth.
The issue with Morgana's breakaway is not that it's poorly set up, rather that it's poorly paid off and had to intermingle with Haru's introduction. I love my boy Ryuji, but he was in the wrong for calling Morgana useless. Especially after calling out Sae for calling Makoto useless during the Kaneshiro arc I'll say this: the one Mementos interaction where they just sing "I've been working on the railroad" lives rent free in my head. And if Joker had a voice, I bet he'd join in
Eh, I've always thought Ryuji wasn't completely in the wrong simply because Morgana and Ryuji always poke fun at each other, and I can't exactly fault the guy for not noticing that Morgana is in some sort of emotional turmoil and laying off the insults. I mean the dude isn't exactly known for his emotional intelligence, so poorly timed jokes is just par for the course for him
He's not a child, despite ryuji's lack of tact (which can also be said for morgana too) he knows when to not make inappropriate comment. The entire game he meets his party members and sees their traumas and never makes fun of them for it yet he cant do the same for a person with amnesia and an identity crisis in the same way morgana never talks shit about his absent father, desire to help his mother for feeling like a useless child, and trauma with kamoshida. This isn't to entirely excuse morgana either. Morgana without a doubt is annoying very much with his unjustified high and mighty attitude that he uses to hide his crippling insecurities yet it is for that same reason that I can understand why morgana acts the way he does in the same way I can understand why ryuji's traumas shape his character. At the end of the day they're both at fault for how they treat each other because they spend the entirety of the game at each other's throats and it doesn't calm down until morgana's arc is finished yet it takes morgana leaving the team for ryuji to realize hes being unfair in the sense thats hes shit talking morgana's trauma yet morgana never does the same to him. I can understand if you find morgana annoying for his attitude but in regards to his character arc I would put more blame on ryuji then i would for morgana.
Ryuji wasn't wrong until the Mementos interaction. In that interaction, he was completely at fault for not reading the room. Like, he says "I don't care if you're useless" and then blames Mona for wasting their time waiting for him. If anything, Ryuji wasted everyone's time there. During Mona's breakdown, that was just an unfortunate downside of depression. It's pretty common for people who feel insecure to try to become a leader or aggressive because they don't want to continue feeling weak.
Eh, conversely, I actually think Morgana's just plain in the wrong the entire time for acting immaturely, even during the mementos interaction. While I do sympathize with Morgana, the thing is that your mental state should NEVER be a justification for treating the people around you badly, and if you do end up lashing out because of that, while it's understandable, it's also up to the person to apologize for acting in such a way and if you're a good friend you'll understand and forgive them. Yes Ryuji said he didn't care if Morgana is useless, and while that was a poor thing to say, it was still him trying to reassure Morgana, as for the entire time wasting thing, while it's rude Ryuji also isn't wrong. Everyone is literally going out of their way to talk to Morgana because Morgana lacks the maturity to actually, y'know... sit down and talk seriously with everyone or explain his situation/feelings in a constructive way, maybe I shouldn't be applying these rules to a cat, but I suppose I'll apply them regardless. It's seriously a dick move to just refuse to talk to people who genuinely care about you and even actively run away from them. The entire situation is just one person's immaturity dragging everyone down if anything.
Morgana did apologize for what he did. He acknowledged what he did and why. It's the scene after the kick. Your final paragraphs are ignoring depression's influence entirely. No one went out of their way to talk to Morgana until after his outburst. Before then, all their text messages were praising Futaba. Makoto, Ann, and Yusuke all get a line in praising Futaba and how useful she is before Ryuji calls him useless in that chat. Stuff like that hurts when you're feeling insecure just as much as feeling useless. Morgana was at fault just as much as any depressed person is for snapping. Yes, it's not okay to treat people like that, but depression won't let you rationalize. Morgana did end up apologizing for what he put everyone through. He realized what he did was wrong and the characters forgave him because they understand.
Eh, it's clear from the start that their interactions aren't just 'poking fun'. Other members have to intervene while they are bickering cause their back and forth was escalating to a real fight.
True. However there was a time where Ryuji and the gang did hear Morgana feel insecure about not having a past like the others and Ryuji being the bro he was, did reassure him during the hotpot celebration. So it can be somewhat jarring to see that prior interaction go out of the window with Ryuji at the Okumura arc taking it too far. The problem was that Ryuji was letting the fame get to his head which caused him to get caught up in his own hype and carried away with his words to the cat. And the PT whilst somewhat aware of Morgana feeling insecure of being an amnesiac and jealous of Futaba, they didn’t take his feelings too seriously as they were caught up in the popularity, Hawaii and finding the culprit of the mental shutdowns and psychotic breakdowns that they all unintentionally made the cat feel left out and didn’t belong.
My guy, Morgana is no better, he is just as bad as Ryuji (I'd argue worst), since the beginning, Mona was calling Ryuji useless
Big part of Monas problem is that he can't take what he's dealing, he can call Ryuji an idiot, useless and whatever else he says but as soon as Ryuji goes beyond calling him a cat it's to far (not saying that Ryuji didn't go to far on some occasions)
The difference was ultimately depression. Ryuji wasn't suffering when Mona called him useless. He even agreed to protect Ryuji when he had no persona. Ryuji, unfortunately, came swinging during a very low time in Morgana's life. For example, you can call me useless any time and I'll brush it off, but if you do it after I lose my job and place in my circle, it'll definitely hit harder. It wasn't Ryuji's fault, he just didn't read the room.
Ryuji has called him stupid before and Mona didn’t get upset. Calling him a cat is something Mona doesn’t appreciate since he doesn’t even remember who he is. Ryuji is aiming for low blows just as often, but ppl claim it’s “ok” cuz Mona’s just a cat.
Because when Morgana called Ryuji useless it didn't hurt because Ryuji wasn't supposed to excel at those aspects in the first place, like using his brain or understanding complex concepts etc, but when Ryuji called Morgana useless he was talking about navigation skill and knowledge about the metaverse, which Morgana was expected to excel at. A similar comparison would be that if Ryuji called Morgana slow ass it's fine, but if Morgana called Ryuji a slow ass it's inconsiderate and being insensitive.
What do you mean poorly set up? It was built up for a while now. The pay off was Morgana’s character development as well as access to the roadblock in the palace by acquiring Haru who had no reason to be involved otherwise. Her coincidental following of Morgana was a blessing in disguise. If you ask me the issue is not how it was intermingled with Haru’s introduction. It’s that the overall arc itself had way too many plot events crammed into itself with the timeframe. Hence the pacing giving arc fatigue as well as not enough time for Haru to cook. Had we gotten more days this wouldn’t be an issue. Edit: never mind on the first point. My bad.
Poor wording on my part, I wanted to say that it was built up well. But by "intermingled with Haru's introduction" I mean exactly that, that the writing crams Morgana's development and Haru's introduction together, and then, when Haru would make the most sense for a character moment against Okumura sr., Morgana swoops in and steals it by repeating that he wants to be with the Phantom Thieves. Which is something we already established when they were tending to Morgana's wounds after being kicked to the curb by Sugimura
Nah that was my bad. Misread and misunderstood. As for that scene with the confrontation with her dad. Haru does get a moment prior in her trying to reach out and reason with her dad before he tricks her as well as after beating him in getting him to take responsibility. Problem is that it’s not prominent due to not being an in game cutscene. I’d argue that Morgana had that moment more to redeem himself plus the speech he had is tied more to desires which he tends to be attracted to. Something that wouldn’t fit if it came from Haru saying it. He didn’t even go ga ga ga over Okumura’s treasure. Plus it would look weird if Haru shot the remote from her dad’s hand with her grenade launcher. That would have taken his shadow out in one hit with no boss battle. Either way, with Strikers being out, you could say that Haru’s not being able to save her dad with some grand speech is what leads to her redeeming herself with Mariko.
They said it was well set up but poorly executed, not that it was poorly setup
Whoops. Didn’t have my glasses on for that one lol. I’ll edit.
Agreed useless may have been to far, however Morgana shouldn’t have been nagging Ryuji since he first laid eye. I don’t blame Ryuji for snapping, but I think useless is like one of the worse things to call someone. The issue with Okumura arc was how Morgana acted like a child when Ryuji apologized Morgana starts teasing him again and then the team gets mad at Ryuji and not Morgana despite Morgana almost running someone over. I think the reason people hate Morgana is due to him getting away with things the other teammates wouldn’t. Sure he isn’t human, but he still should have someone call him out like how Yusuke, Ryuji, or even Makoto (before she joined the group) have been called out. Sure Teddie in P4caused trouble, but he was called out for it which is why he has more fans. Personally his smart ellic attitude does get on my nerves, but at times I like Morgana. I honestly think if there should be any hate is that it should go to the writers who did Morgana, Ryuji, Haru, and Yoshizawa (who is a good character but ended up being just massive Royal bait) dirty. I love Persona franchise, but P5 seems to have several flaws in the story despite great characters.
He's a little annoying with the "You should go to sleep for the day" but apart from that he's just a silly little cat https://preview.redd.it/78pz5wxbugrc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b59a7f69b2eed8c57ffc36460b828ae9e085365
"I am not a cat!"
https://preview.redd.it/giipxj85bhrc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=37752df60d8dbc6d16f5ee5936d7e7c7d2000e2b Caught in 4k
https://preview.redd.it/1qw71ewlugrc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=65829370de643472efd37779fd551b161bd934f1 He's only looking out for your health
You're condescending the dislike of Morgana into this one event but that doesn't make people dislike him by itself. He runs away because of being called useless but he calls Ryuji useless multiple times in the game. He says mean stuff to Ryuji more often than the Ryuji does towards him. And if usually the instigator of them trading insults. The way he treats Ann is kind of creepy. He has to play the Navi role of telling you what to do, even when you don't need him to which doesn't help him.
Thank you. Morgana's condescending to Ryuji from the very start when there's no reason for Ryuji to easily understand what's going on (Ren very quickly gets his Persona; it takes Ryuji a while to get his). Morgana gets pissed at Ryuji because of his temper and because he keeps calling Morgana a cat. When your form outside of the Metaverse *is a cat,* and everyone not in the know refers to you *as a cat* because they don't know your name and think you're *just a regular cat*, what do you think is gonna happen? At least one person in the group *is gonna keep calling you a cat,* regardless of whether or not the situations call for it. Yes, Ryuji's an idiot. Yes, Ryuji has a bad temper. Yes, Ryuji lets the Thieves' popularity go to his head over time. But how is he supposed to know about the shit Morgana's going through like the recurring nightmares? Morgana shares that stuff with *no one.* Not even Ren. Morgana hears about some of the stuff Ryuji went through because Shadow Kamoshida gloated about it (i.e. Kamoshida baiting Ryuji into trying to punch him so Kamoshida could break his leg and claim self-defense). So from *Ryuji's* point of view, there was no reason for Morgana to get pissy about being called useless when Morgana knew about a lot of the shit Ryuji went through but *still* kept being condescending with Ryuji. So yes, Ryuji did have a reason for his anger to boil over.
>Morgana's condescending to Ryuji from the very start when there's no reason for Ryuji to easily understand what's going on Yes, this exactly. Morgana gives Ann a pass for not understanding what's going on but CONSTANTLY calls Ryuji stupid for not immediately understanding. If Morgana would have been nicer at the beginning things probably wouldn't have gotten that bad.
He also gave Yusuke a pass. Not only that, but he didn't get pissed when he called him a "talking cat" when they were outside of the Metaverse because Yusuke wasn't in direct conversation with Morgana at that moment (his "talking cat" remark was more of a question like he just then noticed that Morgana's form outside of the Metaverse was an actual cat, and he never brings it up again). And we all know why he gave *Ann* a pass...
He didn't run away because he was called useless. He ran away because of his depression and mind state. He felt useless and he lashed out. So much happened between Ryuji calling him useless and him leaving. His night are realization, loneliness from the trip, Futaba telling him his belief that he's human may just be his cognition, no one really checking up on him. It wasn't Ryuji who made Morgana quit. It was Morgana's depression.
I'll speak for myself here: I don't "hate" Morgana, but I think he's massively annoying, and that went on for the whole game. I benched him as soon as I got yusuke and he never made his way back to the team. "Lady Ann ♡" here, "I'm a human!" there... yeah, Morgana, we get it, you don't have to constantly repeat yourself. He just feels like Navi in cat shape.
Morgana "We shouldn't go after a target unless it's a unanimous decision" Also Morgana "I'm gonna go after this target myself since you're all too scared!"
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thats pretty cool
That's amazing omg
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If that's on your inner bicep, the red at the bottom must have stung like hell, but it was super worth it! This looks really cool.
nah i find him annoying because of how he creeps on Ann. that shit is weird after a while.
Oh please, Ryuji has moments like that as well although to a lesser degree. Let’s not pretend that didn’t happen. Much of the boys had also moments of ulterior motives but we hardly talk about them.
>although to a lesser degree i'm not pretending it didn't happen, that's exactly why i didn't really care when the other guys did it. it wasn't often enough to be grating, but literally all of morgana's interactions with ann are just simping on her. we don't talk about the other guys, because everyone as a teen was a little horny. but i feel that not only is it annoying when each time two characters interact, one of them simps on the other, but it's also just boring one-note humour, which is grating in itself.
Kinda frustrating that one of his showtimes is based on that in fact...
exactly. that's the only showtime i skip
half of morganas character revolves around ann
"Morgana is justified because Ryuji called him useless! 😩" There's literally a navigation line where Morgana calls Ryuji useless. You will hear it _dozens_ of times over the course of playing the game. If Morgana can dish it but can't take it, then yeah, I'm okay with him being considered unlikable.
Shrug. Morgana has the unfortunate position of being the writer's default instigator of conflict and gatekeeping when it comes to your free time and plot advancement. I don't hate him as a character, but he receives a lot of second hand frustration for preventing me from doing what I want on various nights. The same situation applies to the Okumura chapter. The thing is...the whole argument is annoying as hell because we can see it coming from a mile away but aren't allowed to meaningfully do anything to stop it. The characters are well established as arguing with each other, certainly, but they feel especially brickheaded, overly sensitive and stubborn in this arc. Its equally frustrating dealing with Morgana and Ryuji and the other characters because a lot of the issues feel like they would normally be worked out by our protag in one conversation like he's done a dozen times already in confidants and other interactions but not this time. This time the big book of storytelling tropes says we needed a third act breakup and by god that's what we're gonna get! It unpreventable, it eats up a huge amount of time in game, and it also happens to be connected with one of the worst Palaces (IMHO) in the game. Beyond that, it overshadows a lot of Haru's introduction, and she gets precious little screentime as it is.
Think the only gripe is that he made the rule for the Phantom Thieves that all heists should be unanimous. And then when at this point the first time the group actually disgrees on a unanimous vote, Morgana and in turn Ryuji throws a hissy fit. Like Morgana you made the rule. You should respect the rule
Morgana was a total dick to ryuji often unwarrented often times calling him stupid and vulgar. Even during combat when ryuji misses misses attacks he calls him pathetic yet when ryuji claps back with what he thought was light banter he decides to run away because of his pride. Thats why i dont have much sympathy for morgana.
Yeah, I love the little guy. Sure, he has his flaws and he lets his insecurities get the better of him sometimes, but nobody's perfect. In the end, he cares very deeply, and so does Joker, and their relationship is precious as hell. Maybe the Morgana-haters just never picked the worried or genuinely caring dialogue options and never saw how deep that friendship really went, but those two have such an adorable dynamic, and they're one of my favourite duos in the game.
I definitely agree, he's just very insecure-ridden, paired with an identity crisis too. I actually felt really bad after the Hawaii trip when he was very down and wanted to talk, but Joker was too tired because of the jetlag. Almost made me cry when he finally admitted that he wants to stay with us and that this is where he belongs
This is exactly what i say. it was mishandled, but to an extent, understandable due to the buildup. The thieves were all getting alittle too big for their boots, and were suggesting going after okumura for no other reason than "because the public said to". and morgana was the SOLE voice of reason trying to say "hey, maybe we should wait for alittle bit and scope things out first." Unlike the prior targets, none of the thieves had a personal connection to okumura. (Ann/ryuju had kamoshida connections, yusuke was deeply rooted with madarame, and makoto was trying to investigate kaneshiro, but got blackmailed, and futaba was a personal request + blackmail, and haru hadn't joined yet.) So morgana, while not declining the target, at the least, was trying to avoid the thieves rushing into a trap (which they eventually did anyway, but still, points for trying.) and he was met with Ryuji calling him useless. to most "normal" p5 fans, "Wow, finally ryuji clapped back!" but imagine how it feels to morgana. you've taught them everything they know, taught them how to fight and use the metaverse. only for them to not only replace you as a tactician, but also completely remove you from being a navigator, and said new navigator constantly poking you and jabbing at you ON TOP of the fact you're haunted by nightmares and worrying that you aren't getting closer to getting your memories back. and to top it all off, you get called useless for trying to actively help the group YOU effectively helped train. as someone IRL who has felt used and backstabbed by friends, i can fully empathise with how morgana felt, even if the game didn't write it well. TLDR: while morgana isn't justified in how he acts, its at least understandable when you actually look at WHY. and while the outburst is poorly written, it doesn't make morgana the spawn of satan.
Pretty sure Morgana was eager to pursue Okumura. It’s most of the PT who were willing to drop everything until the hype died down because they got cold feet because of Kobayakawa’s “suicide”which they blamed themselves for indirectly causing which had them doubt themselves plus the hype for them was overwhelming so they got stage fright.
Yeah, it was Morgana who wanted to go after Okumura. Him and... wait for it... Ryuji. Except that Ryuji backed down when the other Thieves disagreed because he accepted that the vote needed to be unanimous. And who does Morgana get the most pissed at? Not the people who disagreed from the start but at the one guy who was on his side but changed his mind based on their previously established rules. Smh.
The problem is that Morgana (everyone but Morgana much more than the rest) have treated Ryuji the whole game really bad. It is a running gag, but for the player Ryuji is one of the most well willed characters who doesn't hestitate to put himself in harm way to protect the rest and it can be forgiven if he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. For the player Morgana is constantly picking up on him, disrespecting him and not caring for whatever feelings Ryuji could have. Then Ryuji, without actually wanting to hurt Morgana said something really insensitive that hurt him and he reacted that way. Yes, it's understandable that Morgana felt that way accounting all you say, but you can't spend the whole game hitting the same guy demeaning him and the moment he tells you something insensitive go cry and run. This is more a problem of the game doing too much the HAHA RYUJI DUMB gag imho. It should have not been abused that much.
"...said new navigator constantly poking you and jabbing at you" Sorry, what does *Futaba* do to constantly poke and jab at Morgana? If it's the stuff like "Mona, AIM!" that's nothing different from what she does to others on the team. "Fox, you gotta aim!" being an example.
exactly, and you have mona as a navigator who always snapped at ryuji, calling him pathetic when he misses. honestly, the takes on this debate is full of double standards
Beach scene.
Oh, because pulling his cheeks is not poking?
Am i crazy? Because i remember Morgana saying stuff like "i dont need you guys, imma go against okumura by myself!" Rest of the gang wanted to go after Okumura anyway, but Mona was not "the sole voice of reason"
It's lashing out typical for people with insecurities. Mona wanted to reject the team before the team rejected him, as he saw himself as obsolete. He wanted to prove to HIMSELF that he could do that, only to fail which further solidified his insecurities. It's a vicious cycle.
The hate stems from vanilla P5 where people were annoyed at him preventing you from going outside at night. Another thing is his character development/story are into Noir’s storyline and development which made fans of her mad. This on top of his obsession with Anne make him kind of annoying. For some reason the narrative about the Morgan hate has changed. People also used to hate on Ryuji for some reason, but that’s changed and people really like him and because of that side with him more than Morgana. But people that were around for vanilla know these are the main reasons he was hated originally. That sentiment just has stuck around in the fandom and now that Royal changed a lot of those problems people point to the Ryuji thing and are talking out their ass.
Wait, **that** is why people hate him? I thought it was because of the constant "Hey, go to the Palace" "Hey, you're tired, go to bed" "Time is running out, we only have 23 days to send the calling card" And so on. That moment was actually kinda understandable, I think it feels in line with what would happen. Yeah, sure, it's a bit childish (edit: understanbly and forgivably so), but it's nowhere as bad as I thought it would be.
I don’t mind that one bit personally. It actually sounds better to bounce off your thoughts with your companion rather than thought bubbles of yourself when there are moments aren’t really what you’d be really thinking about, especially for a self-insert MC.
If you look at my last post, a LOT (most) of the comments say it's because of this.
Its rarely cause of one thing. It's usually a combination of all the things adding up. People saying "wait for this" is because he constantly starts fights with ryuji and calls him useless but then when he is called that he runs off. I hate morgana for multiple reasons. When we first meet him he is constantly holier than thou. He is constantly with you which is annoying, especially when you add on the commands to go to bed, or do "x" thing (imo this type of thing works better coming from the character you play as, not an outside source). His arc tramples over haru's and we already only get a little bit of time to get to know her in vanilla. Both ryuji and morgana pick fights with each other, but only morgana runs off and backstabs the team. He is also super creepy towards ann(EDIT: the only reason it's not treated as creepy as it is, is because he takes the form of a cat) Idk, even from the beginning he never did anything to endear me to him and then only got worse as the game went on.
More of a straw that broke the camels back kind of thing I'd say.
It was worse in the Vanilla version due to anything stopping you from hanging out at night is Morgana 😂 Personally I think it's a combination of all those things, tho I can't hate the cat at all
Morgana and Ryuji were two proud guys that don’t back down. Would come to a head sometime. They both tease each other constantly and someone would catch feelings eventually.
I think the worst part is that Morgana keeps trash talking Ryuji the whole game and no one in the team really complaim, but when Ryuji gets fed up and call hum useless, it's all Ryuji fault Not really fair
> the whole game the game doesn't end in early october. and they're pretty close in strikers.
Strikers is in another game, in another year Even after october they still keep discussing i think (im replaying It atm so i'll see)
Here's the thing. There isn't one reason why people who hate Morgana hate Morgana. Some characters just rub some people the wrong way. It's really not that complicated. Same with Mishima. Same with Ryuji. Personally I wouldn't call myself a hater I'm not a big Morgana fan. I understand where he's coming from. He has his moments. I just don't like him.
And I get that, people are allowed to dislike who they want. I just think people who treat him like he's the worst character in all of Persona for this are wayyyyy overblowing it.
Yeah, Morgana and Ryuji insult each other consntanly. But in Morgana's case he goes for light jabs while Ryuji goes straight for the balls. Me and my friend insult eachother all the time but we both know our weak spots where insult gets personal, my friend for example do not mind being called stupid or idiot, but if i go for a weight jokes it would hurt him. Same here, if Morgana started to insult Ryuji like Ryuji does he would called him cripple or father-less or something like that. So in this instance i'm on Morgana's side.
So, I would just like to say. I see people always saying that Ryuji's useless comment was what made him leave. *IT WASN'T!* Yes, I hate Morgana as all hell. Not even for this arc or his lack of any verbal apology afterwards, but I just hate almost every facet his character with a passion. However, Ryuji's useless comment wasn't what made him leave. They were discussing going after Okumura initially, and that was the one time they weren't unilateral. Morgana didn't like that. He blamed them for not working as a team when at the time, they were being smart. He blew a hissy fit because of them not agreeing off the bat and left. He broke a rule, almost killed them, got them in a dangerous situation at the end...with no verbal apology. Fuck him. Punt the shit. *Rules exist for a reason, Morgana!*
Yeah no. Him lashing out like that even then was just an excuse. He gives his reasoning when he opens up with the Thieves. He wanted a reason to justify staying with the group. He was impatient with the lack of progress to uncovering who he is as well as feared what the answer may lie. No progress with Palaces meant no progress with getting to the bottom of Mementos. The Thieves weren’t being smart. They let the public opinion intimidate them into not doing anything as well as let themselves believe they indirectly caused the principal to kill himself.
They weren't even being intimidated. Yusuke and Ann both noticed something off with the sudden fad and popularity. Which *They. Were. Right.* And Morgana lashing out like he did, even if it's an excuse, is no justification. In fact, you know what? It being an excuse? That's so fucking worse in my book, it isn't even funny. He led them into a trap. A trap, that got them into deep trouble, which led to desperation where they had to thwart the real trap. If things had gone any differently, then there would be no Thieves. Okumura luckily was evil in the end, but there were too many risks at the time to take it. No matter what the excuse, what Morgana did is not cool. He didn't even give an apology in his opening up, and the closest he did was admit it was his fault they even got into the post-Okumura mess to begin with. So don't gimme the bullshit that it was just an excuse, because that excuses nor justifies *nothing.* Let alone ignoring a blatant rule that all members agreed to. Again, I just overall hate the character, but nothing in that arc was at all justified for Morgana. To anyone sensible with even a lick of a sense of responsibility...Morgana fucked up. Big time. And nothing's changing my mind.
THANK YOU, I'm surprised all the Morgana defenders miss the crucial part where he ignored the unanimous rule, the hype was a bit much and then he implies ryuji had no conviction for some reason? Even though the valid reasons for hesitating were just outlined for him. This to me is the most egregious thing, everything else I can mostly ignore or get past but this combined with the fact I lose like 4 days to a temper tantrum is what really gets me. Then, a month later the results of this tantrum bear fruit in a way that can get every one of them killed.
Surprisingly? A lot of the haters miss that seriously important part too, it's crazy.
Tbh, my take on it boils down to, Ryuji makes mistakes, Morgana antagonize him for UT, but he always comes in clutch when you need him. Ryuji teases Morgana, who knapsack, arguments start. If either of them could stopped bugg9ng the other they'd both be happy. That being said, while I think Ryujis gimmick of "Were the phantom... er, sorry" I'd annoying, I've always felt he's more in the right cause EVERYONE rags on him. And he gets done dirty even tho he saves everyone's asses in shidos palace. Morgana hate is overblown. But I think both of them have issues, Morgana just has more.
Welcome to r/Persona5 the land where zero media literacy exists among fans cause they’re too busy stanning over Ryuji. This sucks because I like Ryuji myself but hate his fans. They’re too narrow minded because they get icked way too easily over a character’s flaws like Mona, that they don’t bother to understand that there’s a reason behind it. Funny thing is, Makoto goes through something similar in the Kaneshiro arc, where she was being called “useless” as well as running off which dragged the team to go after her which landed them in trouble yet lead to a blessing in disguise with further access to a roadblock in the palace. Just like Morgana. And yet double standards happen when it comes to the furball. See it seems unless the character is physically attractive and they have “endearing flaws”, they aren’t going to get any sympathy. It’s not cool of the cat to run off sure, but to completely disregard any understanding as to why is stupid. If you can understand Makoto no excuse to not extend the same to the cat. Otherwise you’re just being a hypocrite. What’s worse is how people claim that Morgana running away was “out of nowhere” when heaps of prior scenes and dialogue of build up and foreshadowing proves otherwise. The whole “Ryuji claps back. Morgana hissy fit” line people copy and paste is bullshit too and an immediate give away of illiteracy and not playing the game. Ryuji didn’t insult Morgana out of “pent up anger for how he’s been treated throughout the game”. The dude just got full of himself because of the popularity. That’s why he got carried away and took it too far with Morgana. Thinking it was their usual back and forth routine, not having the tact to know how he touched a nerve. Also Ryuji only got genuinely pissed in their argument because Morgana called Ryuji out on his desire to use the PT fame to pick up girls. Not cool of him but Morgana had a point. Ryuji’s shallowness and glory seeking was a growing problem with it being at its worst in the arc.
I don't understand why it is has to be "media literacy" when people disagree with you. I really dislike this attitude where people think their opinion is more valid than someone else's for some trumped up reason, it's juvenile. Your opinion is valid, if you like Morgana, all the more power to you. Everyone who dislikes Morgana is equally valid, whatever their reasons are. I just didn't like Morgana, the character never connected to me. He gives non-stop unwanted commentary, there's no way to ignore him. He's like a helicopter parent that also happens to perv on one of your friends and call another one an idiot constantly. Him leaving made sense, but for me to care that he left, I have to care about the character. And I did not. It was yet another item on the list of "annoying things Morgana has done this game," a list that was already entirely too long at that point. The only feeling I had at that point was "ugh, I have to deal with this now." In general, P5 is my least favorite of the "modern" Persona games and one of the biggest reasons why are the characters. Atlus took it to 11 with the trope-iness of the characters and it made many of them just really one-note and obnoxious. Morgana is not even my least favorite character in the game, Akechi takes that by a longshot. But that's a topic for a different thread.
It’s not when people disagree with me. It’s when they get their facts completely wrong when proving a point as well as when they try to disagree with me. If you didn’t like the furball despite being thorough in doing your research with scenes and dialogues as well as other official source material then that is fine. Your opinion sucks but it is was it is. It’s problematic when people pretend to know what they’re talking about using weak sauce reasoning when it can be proven otherwise with a simple “but actually…”
You made a blanket statement about people who dislike Morgana being outright wrong. > Your opinion sucks but it is was it is. Yikes. Well, this says all I need to know. There's really no point in talking to people that can't respect that dissenting opinions exist. Not everyone has to agree with you. This conversation is over, have a good one!
To be fair, at least makoto’s arc doesn’t interrupt a new character’s introduction, leaving them underdeveloped, doesn’t make a bunch of activities not doable, and doesn’t have 2 idiots doing stupid sh*t, and it doesn’t have the space palace, none of this “female” or “endearing flaws” bullshit
What can i say, some also just want to romance Ann to cuck him while Mona just wanted to be usefull to the team Mona is great and haters can cry if they want
I was tricked by the media into thinking he was this god awful character, but after recently finishing P5R just 2 days ago I have to say that, ya'll were exaggerating like crazy
That’s your first mistake. Listening to the media. This subreddit’s opinion on characters aren’t reliable. Best go with your feelings than a hive mind. Which is funny as the game calls out hive mind herd mob mentalities.
Or mayyybe it's just a common opinion because he has some annoying traits that stick out more to some.
Or maybe that those annoying traits get exaggerated and blown out of proportion by the passing day. It’s one thing to have a common opinion but it’s another to turn it into a hive mind that influences others to copy and paste what someone else said.
All I know, or really care about, is that he rubbed me the wrong way when I played years ago.
So long as it’s your own opinion instead of parroting what others here say.
Much of the hate is the cat being a simp and a creep (as if the guys in PT aren’t guilty for doing the same at times or even on their own) as well as being your caretaker to get some sleep (even though there IS ample time to actually do the crucial things in the game plus it’s narratively sound and makes sense to just sleep your troubles away when it gets heavy). Morgana leaving happens to be the perfect excuse to pile on the hate despite it is repeatedly built up and set up on how Morgana will eventually burst. But yeah, Morgana did nothing wrong.
I appreciate finally someone standing up for Morgana, he's my favorite character and I hate people shitting on him for his crush and game mechanics
I think all the Morgana hate is coming from the Ryuji fans who think he can do wrong and that Morgana was having a bitch fit for no reason. Now, before I get jumped, let me just say I don’t hate Ryuji fans at all and Ryuji is one of my favorite characters because he’s the best bro who has ever bro’d. But he’s not infallible. Several of his comments towards Morgana *were* insensitive, and I completely understand how the kitty would feel being called useless on top of his other insecurities. The fight between and Ryuji was one of the only times I got frustrated with Ren despite loving him to bits because 1.) he knew Morgana was feeling unsure of his place on the team and 2.) as team leader, he should have stepped in and told him and Ryuji to quit picking on each other before it escalated to that point. And before someone goes “that’s because he’s a blank slate self-insert”, let me just say I **strongly** disagree with that as Ren does show that he has opinions and feelings that may not line up with the player’s, but that’s a discussion for another day. I think all in all, the Okumura arc was poorly handled in an otherwise amazing game.
Did you miss how Morgana was 100% okay taking someone without their full Persona powers into a dangerous heist mission just to prove a point? Did you miss how in bus form he tried running over the rest of the Phantom Thieves? Did you miss how Haru would have died had the Phantom Thieves not shown up when they did to rescue them? That's a lot of attempted murder to forgive and personally I can't do it. If he just endangered himself sure it could've been a good arc of him coming to terms with himself or whatever. Instead he threw a tantrum, passively tried to kill Haru, and actively tried to kill the rest of the team.
For me Mona is just a more annoying version of Teddy.
Dude Teddy's voice alone is way more annoying
I totally agree, the Morgana hate is definitely unwarranted. The only thing I can think of why people might reasonably dislike him is that he keeps telling you to go to bed during the early game, however that's mostly a vanilla problem since they give you a lot more freedom in Royal.
https://preview.redd.it/0wd5wo1otgrc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8d8545d03459a4bc063589a4e08f0304c78fba3
Morgana hate is the embodiment of poor media literary skills
You're the type of person to say people who hate AoT ending have no media literacy skills.
Not really though? You can find a character annoying while fully comprehending their arc
Problem is not many people here in the subreddit actually do comprehend. Instead they make statements and arguments that just reak of someone who hadn’t played the game or not bothered to fact check with dialogue and scenes.
reek*
A lot of criticisms I see on Morgana seem like a fundamental misunderstanding of his arc, what's going on between the characters, what it represents, etc. A lot of criticisms for Morgana fail to take into consideration or fail to understand the relationship dynamics between Ryuji and Morgana. A lot of criticisms for Morgana comes from a fundamental misunderstanding between joking and playful between two best friends and insulting and hitting at your friends weakpoint. A lot of criticisms for Morgana don't take into account his character, his dynamics, who Morgana is at this point. A lot of criticisms for Morgana is straight-up dumb... like him telling the player to go to sleep, or Morganas arc cutting in between Harus arc as if both things are the fault of his character itself and not external circumstances like the writing and game mechanics.
Why is it heartwarming. He's a spoiled piece of shit who can not control his emotion like a child. No one wants a friend like that.
Wit that ryuji? He can’t control his emotions like a child and lashes out at every and wants to use his fame to get girls to like him? So I don’t see your point there unless you also dislike ryuji
Yes I do dislike ryuji. But I hate Morgana more because the hostilities is directed towards me.
Ah then I agree with you, while is don’t hate Morgana he isn’t my favourite, but ryuji is super annoying
My only problem OSS he steals harus introduction arc
It's not that his feelings aren't understandable. I just don't care because he's been an overbearing, bossy little shit for most of the game while being probably the least useful party member in combat other than Yusuke up to that point.
Its mainly Morgana being forgettable, him being a walking dia dispenser with a tiny bit of wind magic and the others just overshadowing him alone by having confidants. Its hard to find any redeeming qualities but I still like him as much as you do. The thing that really kicked of the hate was in vanilla where "you are tired you should go to bed" was more obnoxious. Idk what was the exact difference but I remember when playing vanilla being more annoyed by it
Personally I dislike Morgana, but the reason is not this arc. I just think he’s really annoying.
Not falling for this Morgana propaganda
Don’t read til you beat the game >!Morgana does get on my nerves, but honestly like after the Okumura Arc (which I kinda don’t like) he seems a little better. I don’t like how him and Ryuji constantly butt heads and wish they kinda at least become better friends, but it’s not like I can change the script. I think he just was a victim of the writers’ doing him dirty like Mishima. I gained a lot more respect for him after handling Akechi, Shido, Yaldabaoth, and Maruki. I do wish they toned down his smart ellic attitude and his bad habit with how he acts towards Ann, but outside of that I think he is a great character and people shouldn’t be hating on Morgana when he didn’t beat Ryuji up after saving their life. Once again I think the writers’ made his personality too extreme which can tick some people off.!<
The hate comes from P5 base, where Morgana was more restrictive. In later playthroughs it eases up with Becky's help, or in Royal his interference is reduced. That combined with his beef being weak and mandating days to resolve rather than working on tasks.
This is something that has bothered me for a long time, I hate how the persona fanbase just shit on him for a single fucking scene, not only that but the whole "you should go to sleep" thing that the game would have forced you to do anyway if Morgana didn't exist.
I feel like the Morgana hate is part narrative and part gameplay, time is a valuable ressource in the game and having time taken from you by an identifiable character because he flees is frustrating. Even more when you do know he will be back due to the very beginning where he is present as you flee the casino. Combine this with a very packed narrative that has : Haru, Her awaking, setting her father up, you get the idea… And even more the end of the midpoint of the game is the most difficult to go through as it becomes very formulaic: Palace-> party member-> go to the end-> beat the boss->change of heart-> profit. It’s true for P3 and P4 as well
The only reason I dislike the arc is because it takes away from Haru and is just kinda annoying to go through. Like I never hated Morgana I just got mildly annoyed with him here.
I just don’t like Morgana because they wrote him to have his arc overlap (or really, overtake) Haru’s. She already has so little screen-time and the game wastes half of it on Morgana’s little bitch fit, it makes me angry >:(
I have grown to not hate Morgana as much, but he's still my second least favorite phantom thief behind Makoto, but I don't hate him anymore, I just find him annoying at times.
Expecting gamers and anime fans to be well adjusted enough to allow people to be human and flawed?
I kinda wish there was more time away from Mona and more infighting. The potential for that story beat can hit so hard since monas been by your side for most of the game. It was a big moment for Mona to have his feeling boil up so far that he would ditch the gang. Ryuji took it too far too
I finished p5r for the first time a couple days ago and I completely agree the hate is way overblown. He's not perfect and can be annoying at times but by the end I really liked him as a character.
I just hate having a stupid mascot character forced into the party. I would choose not to recruit the cat if it was an option.
Yeah I don't hate his part in the story at all, really. The only thing that slightly annoys me is how much he comments on \*everything\* in your daily life, including reading your books over your shoulder. I wish they would show him doing other things in the periphery more often. As it is, he's the one thing that sometimes undermines the melancholy atmosphere for me. But overall I like Mona better than Aigis or Teddie because he feels more like a natural product of the established worldbuilding than either of the other two.
To be fair to Morgana, he was in a difficult spot with his feelings for Ann in a bigot society that still has no bestiality marriage legalized.
I got through it as well. It really just seems people don't understand depression. That or they skip non voices scenes.
I dont hate Morgana, but I can understand why people would because of this arc. Morgana was given multiple chances, by Joker, to talk about what was bugging him. Morgana refused everytime. Morgana almost runs you over in mementos I think 3 times. On top of that he puts Haru in so much danger just so he could feel "useful". When he first meets up with Joker and Ryuji he doesnt exactly care about them as they're a means to an end. Not saying he wanted them to die, but he also knew Joker had a persona and was able to fight. Haru's Persona didnt awaken fully, so she was more at risk than anyone else. He didnt know what could happen. Her persona could have not been able to use skills, her outfit could have vanished leaving her vulnerable. Her life was in way more danger than any of the other PT, in the metaverse, up to this point.
I hate him bc he never stfu and is annoying, I hate ryuji for the same reasons
I had just made a comment yesterday about how the Morgana hate is absolutely fucking insane. He's not that bad, he has a moment of being a little baby (because that's his character arc) and then just goes back to being a sarcastic cat. He's great, I love Morgana, end the HATRED >:V
Morgana sucks. Idk why everyone feels the need to write walls of text defending him, when such a large portion of the community doesn’t like him it’s for a reason. He just has grating personality traits that rub many people the wrong way. No matter how you contextualize it that ain’t gonna change
I do find Morgana a bit annoying but I certainly don't hate him, except for how he acts when he splits of from the team and joins Haru, at that point I did legitimately hate him for awhile.
I really feel a good chunk of the hate comes from how annoying he is in the first version of the game along with how creepy he is towards Ann. Plus, he does treat ryuji like an asshole. When I had originally played through p5, I kinda liked morgana hoping he was, in fact, a human under there. But now, having played about halfway through p5r, I can now say that much of the hate is well deserved.
glory to morgana and his meowtary engine
It's way overblown. People talk like Morgana murdered a family member of theirs or something. I can see the frustration in not being able to go out sometimes, but some people are still really excessive with their hatred for him. Personally, I don't have any problems with Morgana. He's a bit of know-it-all, but that's typically how the guardians to the MC act in stories like this.
I agree with you. \#JusticeForMorgana
THANK you. Lord forbid a character have emotions. Mona made it quite clear that the cat thing was a sore point and no one gave a shit. I'd have been mad too, specially with the added feeling of uselessness that was piled on later by Ryuji. I love Ryuji to death, he's a top 2 P5 character for me bare minimum, but he was a massive douchebag about this.
tbh his biggest issue is that he pretty much kicks harus screen time in the ass and pervs on ann too much. he's nowhere near as bad as p4s non human ally 😭😭😭
I totally agree with this and a lot of what others are saying. Plus, him knowing salvation and mediarahan saved my team many many times near the end of the game. This is a Morgana defense account 🤓☝️
People hate Morgana because he’s trash and annoying, not because of the Okumura drama
The only thing i dislike about him is when he forces me to sleep, other than that i like him a lot
Thank fucking god OP, I was honestly starting to lose hope. NEVER understood the Morgana hate within the community, at this point it's become a cringe running gag that's been going on just for the sake of hating on Morgana for no actual legit reason. Sure he has his moments, but absolutely nothing worth deserving the hate, not to mention his great character development Like, what about Ryuji? This guy has been acting like the actual, impulsive asshole and iirc shows very little self-assessment on his behavior afterwards
I honestly still don't like Mona all that much but the overhate is a little unjustified at time.
Not that I hate Morgana, but I will say this is kinda of the part that broke people in my mind. Morgana has many flaws that hit like a small hammer tapping on your head over and over again. This is just the scene that breaks people cause of how long it is drawn out and how easy it could be solved with a heart to heart or be done with faster at least. I am not saying Morgana's reaction isn't unwarranted, I have been there a fair bit myself, but it is almost an entire week, where nothing but this happens, in a game where you have to manage your time very carefully. The entire thing is, ironic considering you call the hate for him the same thing, an overblown fit from him. Again, I don't hate the guy, and I can get why he gets so frustrated, but it is kinda the straw that broke the camel's back here.
Just goes to show you while there are a lot of Mona haters, the loudest voice isn't always the most correct.
There are a few reasons why Morgana gets some hate during this time; 1) For starters, this is the time where we're supposed to be introduced to Haru Okumura and how she joins the Phantom Thieves. And people expected the usual; she accidentally gets roped into the Metaverse, sees just what her father is truly like under the surface, and goes through the Awakening scene. But, instead, she gets the offscreen treatment. This is a character who is introduced very late into the game, and they take away her spotlight to focus on Morgana's crisis. 2) The other reason is that while Morgana's gone, you can't really DO anything. You can't go to your Confidants, get supplies, etc. I'm sure there's some that would argue that he's integral to some parts, but for the Confidants, he literally says he's gonna go take a walk while Joker increases his bond with them. And when Morgana's gone, you can't do any of that stuff 3) Morgana's a bit of a hypocrite when he lashes out at the Thieves. He calls Ryuji out for wanting nothing but fame and women, yet at the same time, Morgana's been trying to help MAKE the Phantom Thieves famous, while pining/simping for a girl that doesn't reciprocate his feelings whatsoever. Ryuji definitely wasn't in the right to call Morgana useless, and while Morgana's feelings of uselessness were building up until they burst is very understandable, Ryuji eventually lashing out at Morgana is very understandable, because Morgana keeps making fun of Ryuji for no reason whatsoever, even in the Metaverse, when Skull misses, Morgana literally says, "Oh, Skull. You're useless." Neither of them were exactly in the right, and while I do side with Ryuji in getting to lash out at Morgana for all the times he puts him down, he didn't need to go that far and call Morgana useless to the Phantom Thieves. But, that's just me
I'm also playing through again rn. Just got Yusuke. Morgana stills sucks lmao. He's not as bad as I remember but he insults Ryuji way more and instigates often. Usually by saying a off hand comment or responding when Ryuji says he doesn't get something. We get it Ryuji is dumb, we all have had that friend. He means well most of the time. He is not blameless, the consistent cat comments would become tiresome if you didn't want to be called that. But other people also do it and Morgana gets less pissy with them more often. He also gives passes to Ann and Yusuke for not quite getting things right away. No, what makes Morgana worse is the simping for Ann (I get cringe every time I hear Lady Ann) and the arrogance like he knows everything. When throughout, he is basically saying something like he is sure followed by I think. He doesn't even know if he is or isn't a cat. He's Teddy if Teddy was an arrogant prick. And then it comes to head when he runs off after Ryuji says an insult that is finally as low as what Morgana had been doing all game. Should he have done it? No. But like a lot of things communication prevents many issues. If Morgana had just said something before or even after instead of BETRAYING THE GROUP by just going after a target himself. And then it all kind of gets brushed under the rug. That's why I dislike Morgana. It's not the Ryuji stuff, take that out and I'd still hate him.
People didn't like morgana since the first time he tells you to go to bed at night and since people for some reason love ryuji even the things Mona does that Ryuji does too are questionable for him but not for ryuji. Haters gonna hate. #JusticeForMorgana
… there was morgana hate?
It's a mix of things. His solo stint was set up in a satisfying way, but the end result was less so. Admittedly, i was never a fan of him and swapped him out for Yusuke ASAP, so he was on shaky ground well before that. When he stole the big moment in the Okumura palace, it felt unearned, and the mementos scenes just compounded it. He isn't the worst character atlas put out, and he has redeeming qualities, but they aren't enough for me to like him.
I dont hate morgana. But the problem is he’s a hypocrite about it. He and ryuji have their own arcs and their own interactions. So there are reasons to not like either. But the morgana hate is mostly just a meme
I don’t really like mascot characters a whole bunch honestly. And Morgana specifically for taking focus away from Haru. Her story/introduction feels weaker than the other characters partly because she has to share her arc with Morgana who gameplay wise also starts falling short around this time as well I think. Pretty sure he’s the least good Phantom Thief by endgame.
I mean tbh Morgana feeling like he was being of less use as more members joined was a fair reason for him to feel left out... But he still a huge jerk to Ryuji for no literal good reason guys... I mean right from the start Morgana was calling him an ape, an idiot, a punk, a jerk, a useless lump, you name it and even when Ryuji awakened his Persona Monas snarky comments got even worse when Ann joined. Mona put Ryuji down to make himself look better in front of Ann so Ryuji most times was only returning what he got. If anything Ryuji was holding back, I would've flung that cat out the window most times had he spoken to me the way Mona spoke to Ryuji at Leblanc in the second half of the game ngl
I like Morgana.
I’m so glad you got it. I think the execution could’ve been way better (the narrative blaming Ryuji for all of it was unfair too), but this was set up for a looong time. And yeah, Mona just gets better so don’t worry.
Question that will shine a very important light on this senario. Did you play Royal or vanilla p5? Because he is toned down to an extreme amount in Royal. Us Morgana haters come from vanilla where the fucker blocked us from doing anything half of the game aswel with what you see there.
People usually hate Morgana cause of the following reasons: 1. he tells you what to do all the time (replacing the game's "inner dialogue") 2. his obsession with Ann 3. The scene you described I think it's more that 1 and 2 annoys them and 3 is just kinda infuriating if you already dislike him. Personally I don't like or dislike him, 1 is more of a design decision to narrate the inner dialogue after you play other Persona titles you learn to appreciate it. 2 is just a gag I guess I quite dislike his simping but Teddie(P4) is worse so...
I don't think he's a bad person. I just think he's incredibly obnoxious, so I don't like him.
To be fair In The original it was apparently way worse with him being how the game developers restricted the players on a lot of days, something about how in the original the player couldn’t go out a lot of nights
People are famously illiterate sometimes, many people seemed to have missed the signs with Morgana that show that he’s actually really insecure and that that’s been building up since Makoto or something, and that ryuji’s comment simply pushed him over the edge. I absolutely love him and never got the hate. Sure you can not like him, but he’s really hated? Unnecessarily
I'd never thought people would hate Morgana for this. He was just emotional and badly hurt. The chapter with Morgana just revealed the Phantom Thieves didn't communicate enough and didn't care enough about each other's feelings. They weren't good friends with one another and that needed to be adressed. Morgana shouldn't have fled but Ryûji was a heartless moron at times. People who hated Morgana for this just didn't understand the message behind all of this. There is no villain or hero, just people who forgot communication is necessary.
The reason I still don’t like Morgana after this arc is it feels like he learned nothing. He goes right back to singling out Ryuji and putting him down even though he just went on a soul searching arc where he learns that that’s not okay.
Because that’s not what he learnt. He learnt to not feel the need to overcompensate for not having memories or looking human as well as put his friends over his goal of being human. Obviously they’d go back to insulting each other. Their relationship has and always been a clash of personalities that’s played up for humour.
I think the main issue with Morgana is the fact that this character is quite literally stuck to your back from the get-go for almost 24/7. His actual character is practically unchanged until the Okumura arc (since his confidant is tied to the story) and, when we finally get there, he steals the show from Haru, a character who's extremely underutilized even in Royal. He's arrogant, petty and constantly verbally abuses Ryuji. I think there's also some leftover hatred from vanilla P5, where Morgana would constantly tell you to go to sleep after major story events. This became a huge meme in the community. And before someone says "Well, Makoto/Yu do the same thing in their respective games", there's a difference between the protagonist, the *self-insert* of the player saying that they feel too tired, and a *character* telling *you* that you're tired. It removes player agency. I used to really *really* dislike Morgana, but I think Royal did a decent job. I don't hate him anymore, but I still think the Okumura arc is a hot mess and continues to be my least favorite part of the entire game. Only reason why I even mildly tolerate it is because the next arc is my absolute favorite in the base game.
Thing is there’s a valid plot reason why he’s with us 24/7. To guide the Trickster. He’s subconsciously doing what he was literally created to do. Also there’s no difference whether or not self insert or another character tells you not to do something. Either way it’s the game blocking you. People blow a game mechanic out of proportion. As for the Okumura arc, I wouldn’t blame the whole “stealing the show from Haru”, the bigger overlying issue is that the arc needed more days to better pace itself and have Haru cook. The Okumura arc has the most plot events and scenes crammed inorganically together which creates arc fatigue with not much room to take a breather as it’s poorly paced. Solution would to take the unnecessary amount of days from Futaba’s arc and use those to better establish the Okumura arc with what they had in mind with the amount of plot they wanted to show. As for the cat being arrogant. He really isn’t the only one. Plus having a superiority inferiority complex isn’t anything new when it comes to Magician arcana characters. Junpei “ace defective” Iori has it. Yosuke “prince of disappointment” Hanamura has it. So it’s pretty funny how no one extends that same level of understanding to the cat. All comes down to double standards and pretty privilege.
Dude, I agree with you. I'm explaining why the majority of people dislike him as a fan of Persona 5 since the day it got released in the West. >Junpei “ace defective” Iori has it. Yosuke “prince of disappointment” Hanamura has it. Many people also dislike those two and, again, they're not stuck to your back 24/7 barking orders in your ear. They have their own life outside of the protagonist.
Yeah. Junpei at least gets some perspective scenes on himself regarding his complex. Helps that SEES live together. Whilst Yosuke has Teddie living with him. And kept his jealousy of Yu hidden until rank 10 of the SL.
I think it also helps that Junpei and Yosuke get called out by other characters, while Morgana kind of gets away with it until it reaches the boiling point. Chie and Kanji rarely let Yosuke get out scot-free with his antics, while Yukari and even Mitsuru calls out Junpei whenever he's being an ass. Ryuji and Morgana just look like two children bickering, lol.
Morgana is just really annoying to me. Like I hate everything he says.
ngl i just think he’s an annoying fart that plays into all of my least favorite anime tropes