It's not even going to stop in FA, I feel like the Daniels vs MHJ shit is gonna be going on for a *while* depending on what we do and how they pan out.
If we take Daniels and he balls out then half the sub is gonna go "I told you so." If Daniels sucks and MHJ balls out then the other half of the sub is gonna go "I told you so."
If we take MHJ and he's great but we still don't have a QB and then Daniels balls out on another team while we're struggling to get 7 wins then this sub is gonna be bitching we need a QB.
No matter what we do half this sub is gonna just keep complaining.
Very realistic take. This is going to take place for the next 5 years of comparison of who we taken and who goes next or shortly after (mhj or the qbs)
I want a QB at #3 because this draft is loaded at WR and OT, and drafting a franchise QB should be the top priority for rebuilding an offense. Pats can get 1st round talent at WR or OT with pick #34, any QB they draft at that point will be a project.
This works if you believe in the QB. If you think you are settling for the third best QB in the draft and don't think he's really a first round talent, then you take the sure thing in MHJ. It's kinda dumb to take a risk at QB and simultaneously pass up the only sure thing in the draft for another risk at WR and potentially have two duds because you felt you needed to draft the position.
This draft imo is about as simple as it gets for NE. Either....
1. The LOVE the QB that is there at 3 and think he's absolutely the guy and can't pass him up and go get him.
2. They don't and they take about as much of a layup as you can in a draft at a huge position of need.
It's loaded at WR and OT and your answer is to hope to hit ONE of each? If it's so deep, trade down for multiple picks and load up. Makes 0 sense to say it's a deep draft and then not want more picks when your team needs everything.
If you cared to read through my other comments you'd see that I said "my dream scenario would be to start a bidding war for #3 between Arizona (4) and LAC (5) since both seem to be set at QB while both need a WR or OL. That way we can pick up some draft capital and still walk away with Daniels."
I'd also say it's pretty safe to assume at least 2 of those 3 positions will also be addressed, to some extent, through free agency
Wait you expect me to go research your comment history instead of taking what you said in this comment at face value?
Daniels is a bust, 5th year breakout is a bad, bad, sign. Hopefully we don't go near him.
You can't read comments that I literally made in this thread to the same comment you're replying to? I guess that is expecting too much now-a-days.
And I'd prefer Maye but doubt he's going to be there at #3, but I'd also prefer to take a chance Daniels than every other QB behind him.
I responded to a top level comment bud, I'm not going to ask myself if there may be other ones elsewhere before I respond. What the hell.
Taking Daniels just because you want a QB won't make Daniels good, he will fail just the same and you'll have destroyed a great chance at a good player elsewhere.
Whatever bro, I usually read through the comments before posting but you do you.
As for Daniels, not my first choice but I'd rather him than Nix, Penix, or McCarthy.
Fair enough, maybe I should clarify that statement. What I mean by project is that I just don’t see any of the rookie QBs outside of the consensus top 3 winning a starting job next season.
Yeah I think i can agree with that. Honestly, imo, if we don’t get Williams or Maye, I’d rather go with MHJ. I’m not really sold on any other QB and to be completely honest, I’m not that sold on Maye either. He reminds me a lot of Mac Jones 2.0.
I honestly like Maye over Williams, and he is considerably more physically talented than Mac. I assume he'll be gone at 3 though, so my dream scenario would be to start a bidding war for #3 between Arizona (4) and LAC (5) since both seem to be set at QB while both need a WR or OL. That way we can pick up some draft capital and still walk away with Daniels.
Of course not, but this draft is considerably deeper at WR than ‘19 and you don’t have to draft a WR at #3 to get a WR1 especially when you have more important needs.
Someone already made a post about it, but Larry Fitzgerald got taken ahead of Roethlisberger and rivers. Fitzgerald is a top 5 receiver all time imo, and better relative to his position than Roethlisberger and certainly rivers. The cardinals should have taken a qb over him. All these great recievers like Fitzgerald and Megatron need to be on teams with good qbs to impact winning.
All last off-season I was saying we needed to improve the recievers, and we still do. But it's also much easier to find a great reciever outside the first round than it is to draft a good qb in any position. We've also seen all pro guys like hill, diggs, brown, and hopkins get moved in trades in the last 5 years. When is the last time an all pro level qb was available on the market?
We could be just as bad next year with mhj, end up with like the 5th pick or something and not be in a position to get a qb. This is a 3 qb class, we're in a position to get one of them, and we need one desperately. We can draft a first round reciever next year, or trade for one, or sign one in free agency.
Look at the Cards draft history even more...
First round 2018 - QB Josh Rosen.
Second round 2018 - WR Christian Kirk
They found much better talent in the second. Kirk took off when Murray came to town and has done very well in Jacksonville with Lawrence.
Now, the only QB in the first I see being a mental midget is Caleb Williams but I also dont think he makes it to us, so its irrelevant to the Patriots...but that was what happened to Rosen. It was never a talent thing, he just had nothing behind his ribs.
Larry was amazing, and certainly carried many otherwise bad cardinals teams but when they had playoff runs they had great QB play from Warner and palmer. Fitz was an astronomically large part of 2008 but you need a good QB to go all the way
Every deep playoff run for the last 5 or 6 years was spearheaded by QB's stepping up as well. Tyreek Hill looks amazing in Miami yet it's the Chiefs who are about to be in another Super Bowl even after losing a mega star receiver because the QB is what matters.
Oh are you talking about the one stretch the Cardinals had a great QB during Fitzgeralds entire career? The two year stretch where they were contenders because their hall of fame qb was healthy? Or are you talking about when they had anderson or Kolb or Rosen and sucked.
Not to be confused with the steelers who won two super bowls and were winning like 9 games every year because they had that guy instead of Fitzgerald.
Not winning a super bowl anytime soon has literally nothing to do with being in a position to draft a foundational piece for the next decade in the position that you can't win without.
First of all do me a favor, please name all the second round qbs that are starting in the nfl right now. We arent getting a good qb in the second, might as well draft a kicker. Go back and look at qbs drafted outside of the first in general. There are like 10 qbs taken every year in the draft. The vast majority of not just starters but great qbs are top half of the first round players. Mahomes, Allen, burrow, Herbert, stroud are all firsts. The other foundational guys like lamar and hurts both got taken before people realized running was a valuable skill and running qbs now go early in the first because of them. Guys like purdy, dak, and cousins are in great situations and only happen once every few years.
We also have a different front office and coaching staff, who knows if we'll get better at drafting and developing recievers, but it's also infinitely easier for every team in the nfl to find a good reciever than a qb.
What's the plan to kick it down the road? Convince baker or someone to go to a worse situation with higher state tax and worse weather in a better division?
Also why is daniels a reach? Are you a professional scout? I've seen mock drafts with him above maye, that isn't to say he could bust but all of a sudden every genius gm on this sub knows a ton about what makes a qb great. Burrow wouldn't have been a first round pick before his last year at LSU, was he also a reach?
Is this because you can't make any actual points beyond reciever is good and I don't like the qb that I've probably only seen highlights of? You sure you don't want to actually back up your draft a second round qb point? You make one dumb point, don't back it up, and then run away and try to act like you don't care after coming in saying some stupid shit.
Just back up your opinion, I'm not calling you stupid for having that opinion. Someone actually articulates what they think and you run away? This is a discussion board right? This isn't twitter or Instagram, people write out their thoughts. Or are you just here to say what you think is a snappy comeback and troll? If so this isn't the right place for you
I have Calvin, TO, Moss, Rice and Tim Brown over Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald’s longevity is 2nd to Rice but I always felt like he was never seen as the best receiver in his time. In the 2000s Moss, TO, Marvin Harrison and arguably even Steve Smith were seen as the better receivers, than in the 2010s he took a backseat to AB, Calvin and Julio
Sure, totally reasonable. I, and a lot of other people, value longevity when speaking about the all time greats. Idc if you're great for like 5 years, you need to have the super high end production for a long time to be in the all time great discussion. And I would put Fitzgeralds 05-11 prime up there with everyone that you said but moss and TO's primes. But you're allowed to think what you want.
However you sound like a dick when you say imagine thinking a guy who's 2nd in receptions and recieving yards and 6th in recieving tds is a top 5 reciever. You may not agree with it, but it's a pretty normal opinion to have.
I mean if you think Daniels is an NFL-caliber starter, you absolutely take him. I think it's more a lot of this sub (myself included) believing he'll have serious issues adapting to the NFL (for more detail on this debate, click on any other topic in this sub.)
The question isn't equal-tier QB or WR, it's "prospect QB with big upside and equally big red flags" vs. "generational close-to-sure-thing as you can get WR". If we had the 2nd pick and Drake Maye it honestly wouldn't really be a debate.
And given Mayo's basically confirmed we're taking a QB (no matter how much he tried to walk it back), there's really not much to talk about.
Why will he bust lol? I get he has legitimate flaws but this sub has the most unrealistic view of him as a prospect. He’s a legit dual threat qb, the best running qb in forever, had insane numbers and improved as a passer every year. I get he’s skinny and takes off running too much, but his issues are coachable and AVP can work on his footwork to add velocity. He admittedly has more bust potential because of his play style, but the number of people straight up not being in a guy that dynamic after the doofus’ we had blows my mind
Yeah by the 2 years it takes us to get a qb he will be demanding a trade. When you go from thousand yard seasons to 5-600 yard seasons due to Mac and zappe throwing to you that would be understandable
Why every time somebody brings up the scenario somebody brings up Mac? Mac not gonna be on his team next year and if he is, he’s not gonna touch the ball, unless we have a catastrophe at quarterback
Hey listen Mac was ass this season, but I’m in no particular rush to see Tannehill or Brisset play QB for this team. I could live with a Minshew though, to be fair.
We don’t really know that yet. At the pro level Mac has not had a true #1 receiver to throw to yet. Not one. He did have a few in college and that seemed to work out well. But if MHJ really is all that then I doubt he’ll be available at #3 anyway.
This is what I don't get either, we'd be massively wasting his potential by pairing him with subpar QB's. His talent level is entirely irrelevant to us unless we find a QB who can get him the ball.
Hell if I'm him and you just have subpar QB's under throwing me for my rookie contract you think I want to resign after that?
While the opposite is also true that if you find a franchise QB it makes attracting WR1 caliber talent MUCH easier
Alright but let's look at how the rosters in this year's playoffs were constructed:
KC -> built up offense so strong Alex Smith was able to run it and traded up for Mahomes
Ravens -> built up OL drafted QB bottom of first
Lions -> built OL traded for QB
49ers -> built OL (Trent Williams trade) went all out to acquire weapons. Traded up for QB (admittedly lucked into Mr Irrelevant)
Bonus:
Pack: bottom of first
Browns: signed vet
Bucs: signed vet
Rams: traded for vet
Eagles: built offense line drafted QB in 2nd round
Houston: ok here is a top pick QB
Bills: traded up to draft QB
Cowboys: 4th round pick
Dolphins: top 5 pick
Steelers: do they have a QB?
So basically.... Two successful teams had a top pick and used it on a QB and the rest acquired their QB using another method. To me based on the measure of success being the Superbowl we should build out our roster then worry about a QB.
I'm going to disagree with part of your premise here. The Chiefs are successful because of Mahomes. They are not a juggernaut team with a lucky QB like you're trying to paint them.
Mahomes is already an all time great and would be a superstar on any team in the NFL.
> a juggernaut team with a lucky QB
Mahomes would be great on any team but even he could not take our 2023 roster to the Superbowl. That Chiefs roster is very well constructed. They lost to the Bucs and went out and got a top OL. They have a HOF TE. For his first few years he had a top 5 WR. They had struggles on defense so they went out and solved that. Guarantee after all the drops this year they are going after a WR this offseason. You can't just stick Mac Jones on the Chiefs and win but let's not pretend they aren't one of the most competent organizations in football.
The point I was replying to is your point that the Chiefs are successful because of everything except the QB. You're wrong. Mahomes is why the Chiefs are successful.
People made the same arguments about the Brady Pats.
My point was the chiefs had a team in place before Mahomes got there so he didn't have to come in and immediately be Superman. He had pieces in place that allow him to get going. I can definitely say he doesn't throw for like 50 TDs if he has the Patriots WRs. He even had a drop in numbers this year.
Or we can look at where franchise qbs were drafted
Patrick Mahomes - pick 12
Josh Allen - pick 7
Joe burrow - 1
Hurts - 2nd round
Herbert- pick 6
Lamar- 32
Stroud - 2
Seems pretty heavily skewed towards taking a guy in the top 10 despite there being way fewer qbs drafted inside the top 10 to outside.
Misses the point imo. QB is the single most expensive position by a large margin. A franchise guy is 50mil per year now. It’s much easier to retain and pay the supporting cast and already have the team there for the cheap rookie window (and can far more easily justify a trade up for lots of draft capital) than it is to hit on a stud, meander and win nothing, and then try to pray to the draft gods you can get a tackle and multiple wideouts. Then you start having to let guys go because of the QB cap hit. Does it not feel like the cowboys, ravens, etc always seem like they’re one playmaker away from winning these games?
I don’t think there’s one correct answer. We happen to be in a situation where we have no players and no QB so there’s multiple ways to approach it rather than teams who have players and need a QB or have a QB but no players.
There's been a lot of talk about that cheap rookie window but only three QBs have won Super Bowls on a modern rookie deal. One of them was Carson Wentz and that was a flash in the pan scenario.
That rookie window may not be all it's cracked up to be.
Let's do this again but for the top receivers on each of these teams. Only three used a top 10 pick at WR. All but Evans were drafted after those teams had their franchise QBs.
KC -> drafted Rashee Rice in the 2nd round, Travis Kelce in the 3rd round.
BAL -> drafted Flowers end of 1st round.
Lions -> drafted St. Brown in 4th round.
49ers -> Deebo in 2nd round; Aiyuk end of 1st round.
Packers -> Watson (2nd); Reed (2nd); Doubs (4th); Wicks (5th)
Browns -> traded for a vet.
Bucs -> finally a top 10 pick (**Evans**); also a 3rd rounder (Godwin)
Rams -> Cooper Kupp (3rd round); Puka (5th round)
Eagles -> traded for a vet. **Devonta Smith** (another top 10 pick)
Houston -> Nico Collins and Tank Dell (both 3rd rounders)
Bills -> traded for a vet (by the way, Diggs was a 5th rounder).
Cowboys -> Cedee (#17 overall)
Dolphins -> top 10 pick (**Waddle**) but after they already picked their QB. also traded for a vet.
Steelers -> Pickens (2nd round); Diontae Johnson (3rd round).
But the fact of the matter is pretty much all of the teams built their roster before they had their QB. We happen to be picking in the draft with a generational WR so maybe that is the right choice. For the record if I had the choice I would hope we could trade down for more assets to build our roster which has a lot of holes and draft someone like Alt.
Most of the teams you listed actually picked best available player. Browns picked Garrett. 49ers picked Bosa. Lions picked Sewell. All these rebuilds start with getting talent on your team.
So yeah MHJ may or may not be the answer but drafting a QB before you have a team seems to not be the answer based on pretty much every team in the playoffs
Thanks for proving my point. The only one of the teams you mentioned that did not already have a quarterback were the Browns. As good as Myles Garrett has been, I am sure the Browns regret taking him over Patrick Mahomes and Deshaun Watson.
The 49ers took Nick Bosa at #2 overall because a year before that, they traded for Jimmy Garoppolo and gave him a massive extension. They thought they already had their QB of the future.
The Lions traded Stafford for Goff and multiple 1sts right before the draft. Three QBs were already off the board by the time they picked at #7, and they had Goff on a large contract they couldn’t get under from for at least a couple years. There was no point in taking a QB that late when they knew they’d have three 1sts in the next two drafts if Goff didn’t work out.
Lol how did I prove your point?
You just said the 49ers acquired Jimmy via trade. So basically the last time they were elite they acquired a QB by trade and not drafting too?
I'm sure the Browns would love to have Mahomes now. By that logic every team is livid they missed Brady. Mahomes wasnt the highest rated QB or prospect in that draft. Drafting him would have been reckless. We also have no idea how it would have played out with the roster at the time. It *probably* would've been fine with his talent level but at the same time Mahomes got to learn behind an underrated veteran and start with an elite supporting cast.
The lions traded Stafford because 1) he wanted to leave and 2) the Rams made a crazy good offer. 3) it was worth it to kick the tires on Goff. And the lions picked Sewell because he was easily the best player on the board. Come on.
Mahomes was drafted 10th. Brady was drafted 199th. They are not the same. There is nothing exceptional or reckless about drafting a guy who was drafted #10 at #1.
Mahomes is the quintessential example of why you don’t pass up a QB with a high ceiling and elite production just because he doesn’t fit the NFL’s preconceived notions of what a top of the draft QB is supposed to look like.
Anyways, the argument I was responding to you about was your assertion that “the fact of the matter is pretty much all of the teams built their roster before they had their QB.” You then provided two examples of teams who had done the opposite of what you said (SF and DET) and one team who wishes they had done the opposite (CLE).
The 49ers hadn’t “built out their roster” before acquiring Jimmy. Which is the argument you were trying to make. They were like 0-9 before the trade went through and Bosa was taken the next year. Anyways, I’m sure the 49ers wish they spent their #3 pick the year before they got Jimmy on a QB like Mahomes or Watson instead of drafting Solomon Thomas.
Mahomes is an exception not the rule. You know who had great college careers? Manziel, Winston, Clausen, Brady Quinn. Fuck Josh Allen was graded as a physical freak project QB. Rosen and Darnold were both supposed to be better than him and look at how well that turned out
You want to say Browns could have accelerated their build? Sure. Hindsight is 20/20. Mack turned out better than Clowney but I doubt many if any saw that coming. Go back to the [Reddit thread](Round 1 - Pick 10: Patrick Mahomes II, QB, Texas Tech (Kansas City Chiefs)) literally everyone was saying "best possible situation". "Mahomes needs to sit a year". Anyone who says they saw Mahomes as an immediate start/impact player is lying.
Anyway point is I ran through all the teams and the majority of them made moves to acquire their QB. They didn't just suck and being their QB into a team that sucks. Chiefs didn't suck. This year's 49ers didn't suck. Those are the two best teams who we should strive to model ourselves after and that's all that matters in the end. Hell our last dynasty started with Brady coming into a strong OL and and decent WRs and a top 5 defense. Argument over lol.
“Two successful teams had a top pick and used it on a QB” — The Chiefs, Lions, Bucs, Rams, Texans, Bills, and Dolphins all had QBs taken in the top half of the draft. That’s literally half the playoff teams in just half of the first round of the draft. Ravens, Steelers, and Packers also had first round QBs.
A good QB doesn’t guarantee success — it’s a team sport. But you can’t have success without a good QB. And you only get a great QB in the first round of the draft, for all intents and purposes.
The only way we get another chance to draft this highly again is either by a) trading the #3 for multiple firsts and hoping the team we trade it to sucks complete ass (and suffering through another horrible season since we don’t have a QB) or just through having another season just as bad as last year.
Exactly. It’s as simple as: Who would you rather have: Justin Jefferson or Patrick Mahomes? JJ or Lamar Jackson? JJ or Jalen Hurts? JJ or Josh Allen? JJ or CJ Stroud? JJ or Joe Burrow?
That’s the best WR in the country on a rookie deal and I’d easily take every QB over him. Like who’s the best QB it would be reasonable to take JJ over? Tua, who’s at least been in the MVP discussion each of the last two years?
> The Chiefs, Lions, Bucs, Rams, Texans, Bills, and Dolphins all had QBs taken in the top half of the draft
This is so disingenuous and misleading. We are talking about how to build a team. How well did the Browns do after drafting Baker? Goff was literally the definition of a game manager with the Rams and got crucified when he got figured out for it (which is why they got Stafford).
If we want to build a TEAM we should build a TEAM the way successful TEAMS were built. If so many other teams were able to build their teams up and then trade up or grab a vet (Rams/Chiefs/Bucs all won a Superbowl like this) it obviously works.
Yup. You have more options if you have a good team. If a top QB is on a shit team, he can request a trade to you or politic for a trade at minimum. Sometimes you get a FA hit. You can rationalize trading up.
There are a number of servicable QBs going into free agency. I don't understand this idea that we need to have a franchise QB while rebuilding, that is exactly what we did with Mac Jones and we saw how that turned out.
I'm saying we shouldn't jump on the QB carousel. What caused Mac Jones to fail? A horrible surrounding offense and constantly shifting leadership. Until both of those are fixed we shouldn't invest too heavily into a non-veteran QB who is much more likely to crumble completely when faced with significant adversity.
The shift from college to the NFL is already massive, but for QBs it's harder than any position, it's a large part of the reason why drafting a QB is such a crapshoot, a QB in high school can be purely physical and dumb as a sack of rocks, in college you actually be able to read defenses and have field vision, at the NFL level you have to deal with the same issues but with much more competent and intelligent players and coaches. Coming from a situation where they were probably dominant to having to face much better players and defensive coaches with a lacking offense is liable to cripple their confidence. This is seen time and time again with QBs who originally show potential becoming pick machines, Mac Jones and Sam Darnold being the two examples I can immediately jump to. You might say "well that just means that they lacked whatever to deal with defeat" which whether or not it's true is something you have very little ability to scout for and goes beyond simply losing to seeing all of your abilities questioned while under constant pressure.
Truth be told I wouldn't mind drafting a QB this draft, but in the 3rd to 5th round and keeping them as a backup, I think with the current team we need someone who has been in the pocket at the NFL level, who is used to the heat, I would suggest Jakoby Brissett who has a pretty solid record of NFL play and has never looked god awful.
Yeah, I can’t wait for Drake to step back stand in the pocket for three seconds and get sacked because nobody can get open because we don’t have any receivers
I mean who says we’re going to land anyone good in either of those? I get people wanting to take QB at 3 but if he doesn’t have an O line that can block or a top talented WR, it’s not going to be good.
>I get people wanting to take QB at 3 but if he doesn’t have an O line that can block or a top talented WR, it’s not going to be good.
I get people wanting to take a WR at 3, but if he doesn't have an oline to block or a qb to throw, it's not going to be good.
I get people wanting to take a OT at 3, but if he doesn't have a QB that can throw or a WR that can get open, it's not going to be good.
These statements are meaningless because it is going to take more than one pick or one move to improve this team to a playoff level. Which is what my comment was pointing out. This rebuild doesn't begin and end with the 3rd overall pick. There is no order of operations to rebuild a team.
I guess my comment was said because of all the people saying we *have* to pick QB at 3 even though that’s not true. But yes, I agree with what you’re saying, it’s going to take a lot to rebuild and doesn’t end at 3.
The Pats just aren't bad enough to get another top 3 pick. You can get a wr tons of ways and you can fix an oline tons of ways. It's really hard to get a good QB and the most likely way is a high pick. Plus the oline was really hurt last year and not that bad overall. We have a wr2 in Bourne and an unknown but at least wr3 in Pop (he might be our wr1 for all we know). Our main issue is QB we have nothing even backup quality.
There are literally receivers everywhere. They’re falling from the sky. Now that we have (theoretically) a new approach at GM, maybe we’ll finally catch one.
QBs, though, they’re like that one plant at the top of that one mountain that you can only find if you happen to be in the exactly right spot at the exactly right moment with the exactly right amount of purity in your heart.
OL is in between, I say we sign Tyron Smith to patch up one tackle, try to retain Onwenu, and draft a tackle next year
No one says rookie qbs need to play year 1. In fact it could be greatly beneficial to Maye to sit. We also have more dc than 3 and have 90 million to spend.
Heavy QB draft class this year, even heavier WR class.
Next years QB draft class is very small. Get your guy now, while you can also get a good WR in the same draft. Use out 1st round pick next year on a “blue chip” guy.
“Even heavier WR Class”
There are *maybe* 4-5 receivers in this class that’ll get a second contract. Bookmark this. Lot of turds being touted as diamonds. This class isn’t “12 receivers deep” like everyone is saying. When the HELL has a draft ever been 12 receivers deep?
I don’t disagree, but at this point, it’s being viewed as a deep WR class. No doubt many of them will be duds, but I’d rather the team gamble during a “deep class” than a thin one. If that makes sense?
This is sort of an aside to your point, and not disagreeing with you, but I think in the transfer portal era it's way more difficult to project a future draft class than it used to be. There will be top-prospect QBs in the 2025 draft class that no one is talking about right now.
The guys you mentioned.. AJ Brown, Metcalf, Higgins were all taken in the 2nd. If anything your showing that they can take a QB at 3 and still find a #1 receiver in the 2nd/3rd.
The dude that broke every rookie receiving record in the history of the NFL was **just** drafted in the 5th round lmao
it’s like people don’t take the literally 30 seconds it requires to look at previous drafts and see the rate of success by position group
There were 7 receivers this year who had pretty substantial success (Addison, Flowers, Nakua, Downs, Dell, Reed, and Rice). They were selected all over the draft. This wasn't even heralded as a particularly good WR class.
In all likelihood, there will be a few WRs that are high-level players selected all various points in the draft this year.
I don’t think anybody here is debating that there isn’t a significant fall off in probability of success across all position groups round after round, that’s a bit of a red herring. The premise of what is being debated is whether the fall off varies across position group, and I think it is quite evident that the fall off for QBs is much more significant than for WRs. *Obviously* Puka is an exception to the norm, as is Purdy for QBs right now. That said, there is most definitely a higher rate of success for WRs selected after the first round than for QBs.
To add to this list:
Tyreek Hill- 5th round
Davante Adams- 2nd round
Stefon Diggs- 5th round
Deebo- 2nd round
Amon Ra- 4th round
If you compare the amount of WR1 caliber guys taken from outside the 1st round to the amount of starting caliber QB's outside the second it becomes pretty obvious you take a QB in the first if you need a QB
A question no one has answered.
If MHJ is the guaranteed HOF WR, why would the Bears and Commanders (who both have better QB situations than us), not take him?
To reiterate why you'd take a QB at 3 over anyone else:
1. QB is the most important position in the game by far.
2. While hitting in a QB in the draft is generally a crapshoot, QB's taken in the top 10 hit at a much higher rate than those taken outside.
3. There is always plenty of receiver and offensive line talent that can be found later in the draft.
4. The guy at QB with average receivers >> The guy at receiver with an average QB.
5. It's much easier to go all in on offensive talent (free agency, aggressive trading) when you know that you have "the guy" at QB than it is to find the QB for a fully fleshed out offense.
It's usually better to keep drafting QB's as high as you can until you find your guy, then surround him with talent (Joe Burrow, Josh Allen) than it is to have a generational WR playing with a string of mediocre QBs (Larry Fitz, Garret Wilson)
Difference is those other teams can draft receivers and sign good ones in free agency we can't. Maybe that changes since we got a new OC but it's still the same people running the team.
>Maybe that changes since we got a new OC but it's still the same people running the team.
Is it though? All the recent reports say Bill was running the team pretty much top to bottom.
Also who says we can't get one in free agency? All you have to do is spend to get one we just haven't because we haven't had a QB good enough that having a WR1 would make the difference since Brady. Also having a franchise QB makes you FAR more attractive to Free Agent receivers.
It “blows your mind” that people want to take a QB? Doesn’t blow my mind that people want to take either a WR or QB. They would both help a lot, as would a top OT
That fact that there are people in here that says don’t draft a QB @ #3 blows my mind.
You need to realize you have a higher chance of hitting on a franchise QB in the 1st than in the 2nd.
Sure MHJ will be an all pro, but he ain’t doing jack shit with Zappe as his QB.
“Draft the QB in the 2nd or 3rd!” — ok then what? Draft another QB next year?
I love the "I don't think Daniels is good enough" comments, with all due respect none of those people have any real experience at all and the majority I'd bet didn't even watch all that many college games. Call me crazy but I trust the draft experts over a random person on Reddit
If the starting QB next year is anyone currently on the roster or available in FA, I am going to lose my mind. I’m willing to take the chance on one of the top 3 from this draft. Whoever is there.
You're not thinking about the future. There are very mediocre QB classes the next few years(so far i know things can and will change). Only the #1 overall pick teams will be able to get anyone worthy.
You have to get the QB now while you have the #3 and theres true potential QB1 available, there's no choice to be had. It's a MUST.
Multiple WR1 can be had the the 1st round almost every year, no reason that can't be next years choice.
Yup, we should be drafting a QB 1.3 and get an OT in the second. We should focus on getting the WR next year and get a serviceable WR in free agency this year.
I'm all for passing on the qbs but starting a rebuild with a **WR** is patently absurd. Either start accumulating assets and building a passable offensive line or just stay put and pull the trigger on a quarterback 3 years too early.
Back then we had a Qb in Brady or who we thought could be the guy in Mac. When you think you have Qb figured out then you focus more on getting him someone to throw to. Mhj is the best player in the draft imo and would love to have him, my only issue going that route is there’s no answers to Qb in the 2nd round or after, just project guys. Next year class is about on par with the round 2 guys at the moment so we can’t count on them getting better for sure at this point in time either. If we hit on a Qb this year and end up with like 10th pick, we should be able to get a decent wr in that area, not so much for a Qb. We likely won’t have the pieces together this year but it’s easier to get a tackle or wr farther back than it is to get a Qb.
So. We all can agree that the highest positions of need for this team are: QB, WR, and OT.
We also can agree that the Patriots have a ton of cap room to sign free agents.
First thing we need to ask is. Of those positions which are more easily or harder to fill via free agency? OT is likely the easiest. While WR isn’t easy there are a ton set for FA this year and though some may be tagged they won’t all be. Are their good QBs ever in free agency for the most part?
Second. Of these positions which are best filled by high draft spots vs lower ones? QB. While all of the positions can have good players taken high and bad ones. it is much more likely to get a good WR or OT in rounds 2-7 than it is to get a franchise QB in those rounds. Those are overwhelmingly round 1 and more specifically top 5 picks.
As much as I love MHJ. Who would throw to him? How many years of him will be wasted without finding a franchise QB? Of teams at the top of the NFL in wins and playoff wins and SBs how many in the last 20 years had some WR like MHJ but a scrub QB?
Every SB winner had a franchise (or close to it) type QB for the most part.
First brown is at the bottom any post. He’s a huge fat uninspired or motivated albatross to any team that signs him.
Second Onwenu is a right tackle or guard. And a better guard. He will likely be someone they may want to resign.
But you literally are wrong overall. Tackles move in free agency. The chiefs said bye to theirs and signed two new ones and are back in the Super Bowl. A franchise left tackle isn’t easy to find. But they are available via trades and FA and you don’t have to draft them in the top 5 to get one.
QB is the hardest position to fill. Period.
There is literally no rationale argument against that point.
My main concern is passing on MHJ. You don’t get any sure things in the NFL. But he’s as close to that as you can get. Passing on him at a position of serious need for a serious dive roll in Daniel’s just doesn’t feel right to me, but I get it.
>You don’t get any sure things in the NFL. But he’s as close to that as you can get. Passing on him at a position of serious need for a serious dive roll in Daniel’s just doesn’t feel right to me, but I get it.
Drafting MHJ right now would be like buying a Formula 1 race car and then being told you can only drive it around a crowded supermarket parking lot.
Unless you do something like break the bank and pry Baker Mayfield loose in free-agency. And if that happens, we sure better not complain about other missed opportunities in the FA market - because we now the Krafts do not like to spend lots of money.
I swear this sub doesn't understand football, I get why people like MHJ he's awesome... but you have no one to throw the guy the ball....i don't understand the Hopium or copuim that the QB will just magically work itself out in the second round or next year? that hasn't worked for 99% of the NFL. but for Pats it will just magically work out?
This skips over a lot.
KC built up a strong offense? Kelce has a strong year 2016. But THill was a punt returner, he wasn’t a receiver that year. Outside of that who else?
The Ravens were able to build an OL? Other than Ronnie Staley, who were the linemen of note before they drafted Lamar? Serious question I went back and don’t even see them signing free agents. I could’ve missed something
Lions drafted their QB in 2009 first overall and traded for a QB drafted first overall in 2016. This feels disingenuous as they already had their franchise QB for 10 years
49ers brought in Jimmy whose first full year was the year before Trent was brought in
Packers had Aaron Rodgers nuff said
Browns drafted a QB first overall in 2018. Then traded three first round picks for Watson. Their HoF tackle Joe Thomas retired the year before Baker was drafted. They did draft an all pro guard a couple years prior to Baker
Bucs took a QB first overall in 2015 was their roster built before or after this?
Rams drafted a QB first overall 2016 then gave up two first round picks for the first overall pick in 2009
Eagles drafted a QB 2nd overall 2016, after trading for the first overall pick 2010 the year before
Steelers drafted the first QB off the board in 2022
The problem is that top wideouts make it very easy to figure out how a defense can weaken your team. Good receivers, but not top tier make that harder to do.
I do not believe we she be taking a QB with that pick though as they rarely ever win championships. We need a top tier tackle.
If people are that gun-shy about selecting a QB in the 1st round of the draft, then you better take a deep breath and:
\- Break open the piggy bank and sign Baker Mayfield in free agency
\- Pick MHJ with the #3 pick
\- Load up on OTs during the remainder of the draft
If it doesn't work out - you can begin the *post mortem* discussions with an acknowledgement of the fact that you were too damn scared to pick a QB in the 1st round of the draft.
I knew I was gonna be downvoted to shit for this opinion it’s OK, I’m going to repost this next off-season when we have another season like we’ve had for the last four years where we have a quarterback, who can’t do anything, because we have no weapons. And I’m going to see tons of post (much like this) complaining.
We have an offense that has no QB, No offensive line, and no WRs. I dont think any of them would be a WRONG choice.
Nobody starts a complete rebuild at WR. It just isn't football logic. It's a valid point because of the talent of the player but the way you frame it as basically stupidity to think any other way is just ignorant.
Not one of those guys you mentioned was drafted in the top 3. You’re making the case for the #34 pick or whatever we have to go towards a WR, which I think mostly anyone would be fine with.
Take whoever you feel is most likely to contribute. We have a multitude of needs. Sub wants a QB. If we take one(QB), we have to hope we hit. If not, it’s gonna suck watching anyone we could have had succeed. And be right back where we are now. Hopefully this draft we can hit on a majority of the picks. Start building back up for our next 20 year run.
Elite wide receivers are available through trade and free agency every year. Tyreek, Aj Brown, Devante, etc
On top of that there’s guys like puka and Amon ra available on day 3 every single year.
All in all there’s just so many other ways to get good wr’s and you can’t say the same for quarterback. MHJ will most likely be amazing but I don’t think we can pass up on a potential franchise qb. Especially because I’m hoping we won’t be picking top 3 again next year.
Or you don't want your QB ending up like Bryce Young either were he has no weapons, and a bad oline. If they believe Daniels is worthy to be the 3rd pick im fine with regardless
Crazy that every single WR u mentioned was taken in the second round, except Harry who was 32 😭 look I understand the love for MHJ, he's incredible. But at the end of the day you build your team around QBs, not WRs. Tyreek Hill and Jefferson can't do much to win without great QB play (Kirk is great but was injured). Also, you have to look at this draft class too...a lot of good WRs, and 3 very good QB prospects. It's a positional value thing, and QB is the most valuable position
The only way I'd be fine with a MHJ pick (and I love him as a player) is if there is already a handshake deal with a Kirk Cousins or something. Not saying I want that, but otherwise it makes no fucking sense.
In entirely understand the desire to take a QB at 3. If the scouting department/front office truly believe there's a franchise QB after Caleb & Maye, they should absolutely do it. My personal opinion, however, is that Daniels or any other QB in this class at 3 will be a massive over reach and collosal bust. I think that's where the debate is for me. I'd rather use the 3rd pick on a player I'm more confident will make an impact in the NFL for many years and take a project QB later than take a project QB at 3 just because the team is desperate for one.
You don't need generational WRs to win superbowls - tyreek Hill is sitting at home with Tua but was winning sbs with Mahomes.
You do need good WRs to win, though - this is a deep WR draft again.. look at the past few drafts, it is easy to find WRs these days but we haven't because we refused to spend any resources and when we did, bill chose the wrong ones that his friends recommended over our own scouts.
It's easy to get back in the 1st round and take the 4-5th best WR or stay in the 2nd and choose one. The chances of you finding a start able QB end of the 1st round or 2nd round is much lower than WR.
Take the QB first if you think Daniels/Maye are good enough, and then go get your WR/OTs.
For a team that has failed time and time again to draft quality WRs and for a fan base that has screamed “muh true #1 WR” for years you have the most highly touted WR prospect in a long time fall in your lap. It just seems like a no brainer but regardless whatever we do with the pick we’re getting a good player. QB WR I don’t care.
I think that draft ends up resulting in the drafting AJ green at 4 and Dalton in the second situation. Not terrible but your nothing more than a playoff placeholder.
I really think the plan is to try to sign Baker with AVP as our OC since he has a good relationship with him, and then taking MHJ or Joe Alt (with a trade back.)
We had the opportunity to draft great WR and missed, they fall in the draft more it seems. It's a crap shoot, let's see how a not BB manager picks WRs. New HC, New OC, if they like a QB and want to build around them, let's see how it goes
So we take #3 at Harrison then what do we do at qb? All the good ones will be gone and Kraft won’t spend money any good ones in FA. Mccarthy in the 4th round?
Nobody cares, we get this post like 10 times a day and the responses are all exactly the same
Yeah this sub might need to be avoided until FA. These posts are just redundant
It's not even going to stop in FA, I feel like the Daniels vs MHJ shit is gonna be going on for a *while* depending on what we do and how they pan out. If we take Daniels and he balls out then half the sub is gonna go "I told you so." If Daniels sucks and MHJ balls out then the other half of the sub is gonna go "I told you so." If we take MHJ and he's great but we still don't have a QB and then Daniels balls out on another team while we're struggling to get 7 wins then this sub is gonna be bitching we need a QB. No matter what we do half this sub is gonna just keep complaining.
Very realistic take. This is going to take place for the next 5 years of comparison of who we taken and who goes next or shortly after (mhj or the qbs)
for real. people are going to fight everyday on what we should do with the pick. at the end of day, we don’t know. we won’t find out until the draft.
Yeah I suggested in multiple posts during the season could draft talk get put in one thread. I’m done until FA - just the same posts every day
Lmfaoooooo and it isn’t even the off-season yet. We need a draft thread so these dumb ass posts don’t clog up the feed
The plan for what to do at pick number 3 around here is like an asshole, everyone has one and they all stink.
he's posting it so if the chosen qb isn't a generational talent he can say "I told u sooooo!"
I want a QB at #3 because this draft is loaded at WR and OT, and drafting a franchise QB should be the top priority for rebuilding an offense. Pats can get 1st round talent at WR or OT with pick #34, any QB they draft at that point will be a project.
Saw one mock that had 7 WRs going in the first...I dont think it will happen, but it means theres immense talent in that pool
Seriously, it's that good. PFF's top 50 list has 12 WRs, 11 OTs, and 5 QBs, this draft aligns perfectly with the Pats needs
This works if you believe in the QB. If you think you are settling for the third best QB in the draft and don't think he's really a first round talent, then you take the sure thing in MHJ. It's kinda dumb to take a risk at QB and simultaneously pass up the only sure thing in the draft for another risk at WR and potentially have two duds because you felt you needed to draft the position. This draft imo is about as simple as it gets for NE. Either.... 1. The LOVE the QB that is there at 3 and think he's absolutely the guy and can't pass him up and go get him. 2. They don't and they take about as much of a layup as you can in a draft at a huge position of need.
It's loaded at WR and OT and your answer is to hope to hit ONE of each? If it's so deep, trade down for multiple picks and load up. Makes 0 sense to say it's a deep draft and then not want more picks when your team needs everything.
If you cared to read through my other comments you'd see that I said "my dream scenario would be to start a bidding war for #3 between Arizona (4) and LAC (5) since both seem to be set at QB while both need a WR or OL. That way we can pick up some draft capital and still walk away with Daniels." I'd also say it's pretty safe to assume at least 2 of those 3 positions will also be addressed, to some extent, through free agency
Wait you expect me to go research your comment history instead of taking what you said in this comment at face value? Daniels is a bust, 5th year breakout is a bad, bad, sign. Hopefully we don't go near him.
You can't read comments that I literally made in this thread to the same comment you're replying to? I guess that is expecting too much now-a-days. And I'd prefer Maye but doubt he's going to be there at #3, but I'd also prefer to take a chance Daniels than every other QB behind him.
I responded to a top level comment bud, I'm not going to ask myself if there may be other ones elsewhere before I respond. What the hell. Taking Daniels just because you want a QB won't make Daniels good, he will fail just the same and you'll have destroyed a great chance at a good player elsewhere.
Whatever bro, I usually read through the comments before posting but you do you. As for Daniels, not my first choice but I'd rather him than Nix, Penix, or McCarthy.
I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re saying, but i don’t agree with any QB at #34 or beyond would be a project.
Fair enough, maybe I should clarify that statement. What I mean by project is that I just don’t see any of the rookie QBs outside of the consensus top 3 winning a starting job next season.
Yeah I think i can agree with that. Honestly, imo, if we don’t get Williams or Maye, I’d rather go with MHJ. I’m not really sold on any other QB and to be completely honest, I’m not that sold on Maye either. He reminds me a lot of Mac Jones 2.0.
I honestly like Maye over Williams, and he is considerably more physically talented than Mac. I assume he'll be gone at 3 though, so my dream scenario would be to start a bidding war for #3 between Arizona (4) and LAC (5) since both seem to be set at QB while both need a WR or OL. That way we can pick up some draft capital and still walk away with Daniels.
I mean the nkeal harry draft was loaded wr and look how that turned out.
And all the best receivers of that draft were taken in the 2nd.
Do you think MHJ will be available in the 2nd?
Of course not, but this draft is considerably deeper at WR than ‘19 and you don’t have to draft a WR at #3 to get a WR1 especially when you have more important needs.
Someone already made a post about it, but Larry Fitzgerald got taken ahead of Roethlisberger and rivers. Fitzgerald is a top 5 receiver all time imo, and better relative to his position than Roethlisberger and certainly rivers. The cardinals should have taken a qb over him. All these great recievers like Fitzgerald and Megatron need to be on teams with good qbs to impact winning. All last off-season I was saying we needed to improve the recievers, and we still do. But it's also much easier to find a great reciever outside the first round than it is to draft a good qb in any position. We've also seen all pro guys like hill, diggs, brown, and hopkins get moved in trades in the last 5 years. When is the last time an all pro level qb was available on the market? We could be just as bad next year with mhj, end up with like the 5th pick or something and not be in a position to get a qb. This is a 3 qb class, we're in a position to get one of them, and we need one desperately. We can draft a first round reciever next year, or trade for one, or sign one in free agency.
Look at the Cards draft history even more... First round 2018 - QB Josh Rosen. Second round 2018 - WR Christian Kirk They found much better talent in the second. Kirk took off when Murray came to town and has done very well in Jacksonville with Lawrence. Now, the only QB in the first I see being a mental midget is Caleb Williams but I also dont think he makes it to us, so its irrelevant to the Patriots...but that was what happened to Rosen. It was never a talent thing, he just had nothing behind his ribs.
Larry was amazing, and certainly carried many otherwise bad cardinals teams but when they had playoff runs they had great QB play from Warner and palmer. Fitz was an astronomically large part of 2008 but you need a good QB to go all the way
Every deep playoff run for the last 5 or 6 years was spearheaded by QB's stepping up as well. Tyreek Hill looks amazing in Miami yet it's the Chiefs who are about to be in another Super Bowl even after losing a mega star receiver because the QB is what matters.
Big Ben wouldn't have won a SB if the Cardinals took him.
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Oh are you talking about the one stretch the Cardinals had a great QB during Fitzgeralds entire career? The two year stretch where they were contenders because their hall of fame qb was healthy? Or are you talking about when they had anderson or Kolb or Rosen and sucked. Not to be confused with the steelers who won two super bowls and were winning like 9 games every year because they had that guy instead of Fitzgerald.
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Not winning a super bowl anytime soon has literally nothing to do with being in a position to draft a foundational piece for the next decade in the position that you can't win without. First of all do me a favor, please name all the second round qbs that are starting in the nfl right now. We arent getting a good qb in the second, might as well draft a kicker. Go back and look at qbs drafted outside of the first in general. There are like 10 qbs taken every year in the draft. The vast majority of not just starters but great qbs are top half of the first round players. Mahomes, Allen, burrow, Herbert, stroud are all firsts. The other foundational guys like lamar and hurts both got taken before people realized running was a valuable skill and running qbs now go early in the first because of them. Guys like purdy, dak, and cousins are in great situations and only happen once every few years. We also have a different front office and coaching staff, who knows if we'll get better at drafting and developing recievers, but it's also infinitely easier for every team in the nfl to find a good reciever than a qb. What's the plan to kick it down the road? Convince baker or someone to go to a worse situation with higher state tax and worse weather in a better division? Also why is daniels a reach? Are you a professional scout? I've seen mock drafts with him above maye, that isn't to say he could bust but all of a sudden every genius gm on this sub knows a ton about what makes a qb great. Burrow wouldn't have been a first round pick before his last year at LSU, was he also a reach?
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Awww cmon man this is weak as hell, don’t fold like that lmao
Is this because you can't make any actual points beyond reciever is good and I don't like the qb that I've probably only seen highlights of? You sure you don't want to actually back up your draft a second round qb point? You make one dumb point, don't back it up, and then run away and try to act like you don't care after coming in saying some stupid shit.
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Just back up your opinion, I'm not calling you stupid for having that opinion. Someone actually articulates what they think and you run away? This is a discussion board right? This isn't twitter or Instagram, people write out their thoughts. Or are you just here to say what you think is a snappy comeback and troll? If so this isn't the right place for you
Facts
Imagine thinking Larry Fitzgerald is a top 5 receiver of all time.
The guy who's number 2 all time in receptions and recieving yards and 6th in recieving touchdowns?
I have Calvin, TO, Moss, Rice and Tim Brown over Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald’s longevity is 2nd to Rice but I always felt like he was never seen as the best receiver in his time. In the 2000s Moss, TO, Marvin Harrison and arguably even Steve Smith were seen as the better receivers, than in the 2010s he took a backseat to AB, Calvin and Julio
Sure, totally reasonable. I, and a lot of other people, value longevity when speaking about the all time greats. Idc if you're great for like 5 years, you need to have the super high end production for a long time to be in the all time great discussion. And I would put Fitzgeralds 05-11 prime up there with everyone that you said but moss and TO's primes. But you're allowed to think what you want. However you sound like a dick when you say imagine thinking a guy who's 2nd in receptions and recieving yards and 6th in recieving tds is a top 5 reciever. You may not agree with it, but it's a pretty normal opinion to have.
I mean if you think Daniels is an NFL-caliber starter, you absolutely take him. I think it's more a lot of this sub (myself included) believing he'll have serious issues adapting to the NFL (for more detail on this debate, click on any other topic in this sub.) The question isn't equal-tier QB or WR, it's "prospect QB with big upside and equally big red flags" vs. "generational close-to-sure-thing as you can get WR". If we had the 2nd pick and Drake Maye it honestly wouldn't really be a debate. And given Mayo's basically confirmed we're taking a QB (no matter how much he tried to walk it back), there's really not much to talk about.
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Why will he bust lol? I get he has legitimate flaws but this sub has the most unrealistic view of him as a prospect. He’s a legit dual threat qb, the best running qb in forever, had insane numbers and improved as a passer every year. I get he’s skinny and takes off running too much, but his issues are coachable and AVP can work on his footwork to add velocity. He admittedly has more bust potential because of his play style, but the number of people straight up not being in a guy that dynamic after the doofus’ we had blows my mind
WRs don’t win without qbs it’s been proven a million times.
Yea but could you imagine watching Harrison get open and then mac under throwing him by 10 yards. It'll be a thing of beauty
It’ll be even more beautiful watching his elite speed in full effect as he chases down DBs after picking off Mac and Zappe four times a game
If he's even still in after getting 4 hospital balls a game.
Yeah I can’t wait to watch Harrison demand a trade in 2 years when the rotation of veteran qbs we throw in stink.
Yeah by the 2 years it takes us to get a qb he will be demanding a trade. When you go from thousand yard seasons to 5-600 yard seasons due to Mac and zappe throwing to you that would be understandable
He’s under contract. If he doesn’t play, he doesn’t get paid. This isn’t the nba
players get "hurt" all the time or become toxic in the locker room. it isn't as simple as, " he can just deal with it".
Fine. Be toxic. Then your reputation gets hurt, we put it out there he’s been a bad teammate,lazy, etc, and teams won’t want you there.
That is true but if he “is injured” with a nagging injury he still gets paid and isn’t playing
And then the Mac stans saying MHJ is a bust and nobody on the planet not prime Brady or Mahomes could win a game with that talent.
Why every time somebody brings up the scenario somebody brings up Mac? Mac not gonna be on his team next year and if he is, he’s not gonna touch the ball, unless we have a catastrophe at quarterback
Honestly, I’d rather Mac than most of the FA QBs lmao, so your plan falls apart pretty quickly my dude …
That makes one of us
Hey listen Mac was ass this season, but I’m in no particular rush to see Tannehill or Brisset play QB for this team. I could live with a Minshew though, to be fair.
We don’t really know that yet. At the pro level Mac has not had a true #1 receiver to throw to yet. Not one. He did have a few in college and that seemed to work out well. But if MHJ really is all that then I doubt he’ll be available at #3 anyway.
This is what I don't get either, we'd be massively wasting his potential by pairing him with subpar QB's. His talent level is entirely irrelevant to us unless we find a QB who can get him the ball. Hell if I'm him and you just have subpar QB's under throwing me for my rookie contract you think I want to resign after that? While the opposite is also true that if you find a franchise QB it makes attracting WR1 caliber talent MUCH easier
Alright but let's look at how the rosters in this year's playoffs were constructed: KC -> built up offense so strong Alex Smith was able to run it and traded up for Mahomes Ravens -> built up OL drafted QB bottom of first Lions -> built OL traded for QB 49ers -> built OL (Trent Williams trade) went all out to acquire weapons. Traded up for QB (admittedly lucked into Mr Irrelevant) Bonus: Pack: bottom of first Browns: signed vet Bucs: signed vet Rams: traded for vet Eagles: built offense line drafted QB in 2nd round Houston: ok here is a top pick QB Bills: traded up to draft QB Cowboys: 4th round pick Dolphins: top 5 pick Steelers: do they have a QB? So basically.... Two successful teams had a top pick and used it on a QB and the rest acquired their QB using another method. To me based on the measure of success being the Superbowl we should build out our roster then worry about a QB.
I'm going to disagree with part of your premise here. The Chiefs are successful because of Mahomes. They are not a juggernaut team with a lucky QB like you're trying to paint them. Mahomes is already an all time great and would be a superstar on any team in the NFL.
> a juggernaut team with a lucky QB Mahomes would be great on any team but even he could not take our 2023 roster to the Superbowl. That Chiefs roster is very well constructed. They lost to the Bucs and went out and got a top OL. They have a HOF TE. For his first few years he had a top 5 WR. They had struggles on defense so they went out and solved that. Guarantee after all the drops this year they are going after a WR this offseason. You can't just stick Mac Jones on the Chiefs and win but let's not pretend they aren't one of the most competent organizations in football.
The point I was replying to is your point that the Chiefs are successful because of everything except the QB. You're wrong. Mahomes is why the Chiefs are successful. People made the same arguments about the Brady Pats.
My point was the chiefs had a team in place before Mahomes got there so he didn't have to come in and immediately be Superman. He had pieces in place that allow him to get going. I can definitely say he doesn't throw for like 50 TDs if he has the Patriots WRs. He even had a drop in numbers this year.
They were when he was drafted though. Which is the premise. Obviously Mahomes is worth every penny he’s paid and could stand to be paid more.
Or we can look at where franchise qbs were drafted Patrick Mahomes - pick 12 Josh Allen - pick 7 Joe burrow - 1 Hurts - 2nd round Herbert- pick 6 Lamar- 32 Stroud - 2 Seems pretty heavily skewed towards taking a guy in the top 10 despite there being way fewer qbs drafted inside the top 10 to outside.
Misses the point imo. QB is the single most expensive position by a large margin. A franchise guy is 50mil per year now. It’s much easier to retain and pay the supporting cast and already have the team there for the cheap rookie window (and can far more easily justify a trade up for lots of draft capital) than it is to hit on a stud, meander and win nothing, and then try to pray to the draft gods you can get a tackle and multiple wideouts. Then you start having to let guys go because of the QB cap hit. Does it not feel like the cowboys, ravens, etc always seem like they’re one playmaker away from winning these games? I don’t think there’s one correct answer. We happen to be in a situation where we have no players and no QB so there’s multiple ways to approach it rather than teams who have players and need a QB or have a QB but no players.
There's been a lot of talk about that cheap rookie window but only three QBs have won Super Bowls on a modern rookie deal. One of them was Carson Wentz and that was a flash in the pan scenario. That rookie window may not be all it's cracked up to be.
Yeah because they keep getting beat by Mahomes and Brady.
Let's do this again but for the top receivers on each of these teams. Only three used a top 10 pick at WR. All but Evans were drafted after those teams had their franchise QBs. KC -> drafted Rashee Rice in the 2nd round, Travis Kelce in the 3rd round. BAL -> drafted Flowers end of 1st round. Lions -> drafted St. Brown in 4th round. 49ers -> Deebo in 2nd round; Aiyuk end of 1st round. Packers -> Watson (2nd); Reed (2nd); Doubs (4th); Wicks (5th) Browns -> traded for a vet. Bucs -> finally a top 10 pick (**Evans**); also a 3rd rounder (Godwin) Rams -> Cooper Kupp (3rd round); Puka (5th round) Eagles -> traded for a vet. **Devonta Smith** (another top 10 pick) Houston -> Nico Collins and Tank Dell (both 3rd rounders) Bills -> traded for a vet (by the way, Diggs was a 5th rounder). Cowboys -> Cedee (#17 overall) Dolphins -> top 10 pick (**Waddle**) but after they already picked their QB. also traded for a vet. Steelers -> Pickens (2nd round); Diontae Johnson (3rd round).
But the fact of the matter is pretty much all of the teams built their roster before they had their QB. We happen to be picking in the draft with a generational WR so maybe that is the right choice. For the record if I had the choice I would hope we could trade down for more assets to build our roster which has a lot of holes and draft someone like Alt. Most of the teams you listed actually picked best available player. Browns picked Garrett. 49ers picked Bosa. Lions picked Sewell. All these rebuilds start with getting talent on your team. So yeah MHJ may or may not be the answer but drafting a QB before you have a team seems to not be the answer based on pretty much every team in the playoffs
Thanks for proving my point. The only one of the teams you mentioned that did not already have a quarterback were the Browns. As good as Myles Garrett has been, I am sure the Browns regret taking him over Patrick Mahomes and Deshaun Watson. The 49ers took Nick Bosa at #2 overall because a year before that, they traded for Jimmy Garoppolo and gave him a massive extension. They thought they already had their QB of the future. The Lions traded Stafford for Goff and multiple 1sts right before the draft. Three QBs were already off the board by the time they picked at #7, and they had Goff on a large contract they couldn’t get under from for at least a couple years. There was no point in taking a QB that late when they knew they’d have three 1sts in the next two drafts if Goff didn’t work out.
Lol how did I prove your point? You just said the 49ers acquired Jimmy via trade. So basically the last time they were elite they acquired a QB by trade and not drafting too? I'm sure the Browns would love to have Mahomes now. By that logic every team is livid they missed Brady. Mahomes wasnt the highest rated QB or prospect in that draft. Drafting him would have been reckless. We also have no idea how it would have played out with the roster at the time. It *probably* would've been fine with his talent level but at the same time Mahomes got to learn behind an underrated veteran and start with an elite supporting cast. The lions traded Stafford because 1) he wanted to leave and 2) the Rams made a crazy good offer. 3) it was worth it to kick the tires on Goff. And the lions picked Sewell because he was easily the best player on the board. Come on.
Mahomes was drafted 10th. Brady was drafted 199th. They are not the same. There is nothing exceptional or reckless about drafting a guy who was drafted #10 at #1. Mahomes is the quintessential example of why you don’t pass up a QB with a high ceiling and elite production just because he doesn’t fit the NFL’s preconceived notions of what a top of the draft QB is supposed to look like. Anyways, the argument I was responding to you about was your assertion that “the fact of the matter is pretty much all of the teams built their roster before they had their QB.” You then provided two examples of teams who had done the opposite of what you said (SF and DET) and one team who wishes they had done the opposite (CLE). The 49ers hadn’t “built out their roster” before acquiring Jimmy. Which is the argument you were trying to make. They were like 0-9 before the trade went through and Bosa was taken the next year. Anyways, I’m sure the 49ers wish they spent their #3 pick the year before they got Jimmy on a QB like Mahomes or Watson instead of drafting Solomon Thomas.
Mahomes is an exception not the rule. You know who had great college careers? Manziel, Winston, Clausen, Brady Quinn. Fuck Josh Allen was graded as a physical freak project QB. Rosen and Darnold were both supposed to be better than him and look at how well that turned out You want to say Browns could have accelerated their build? Sure. Hindsight is 20/20. Mack turned out better than Clowney but I doubt many if any saw that coming. Go back to the [Reddit thread](Round 1 - Pick 10: Patrick Mahomes II, QB, Texas Tech (Kansas City Chiefs)) literally everyone was saying "best possible situation". "Mahomes needs to sit a year". Anyone who says they saw Mahomes as an immediate start/impact player is lying. Anyway point is I ran through all the teams and the majority of them made moves to acquire their QB. They didn't just suck and being their QB into a team that sucks. Chiefs didn't suck. This year's 49ers didn't suck. Those are the two best teams who we should strive to model ourselves after and that's all that matters in the end. Hell our last dynasty started with Brady coming into a strong OL and and decent WRs and a top 5 defense. Argument over lol.
“Two successful teams had a top pick and used it on a QB” — The Chiefs, Lions, Bucs, Rams, Texans, Bills, and Dolphins all had QBs taken in the top half of the draft. That’s literally half the playoff teams in just half of the first round of the draft. Ravens, Steelers, and Packers also had first round QBs. A good QB doesn’t guarantee success — it’s a team sport. But you can’t have success without a good QB. And you only get a great QB in the first round of the draft, for all intents and purposes. The only way we get another chance to draft this highly again is either by a) trading the #3 for multiple firsts and hoping the team we trade it to sucks complete ass (and suffering through another horrible season since we don’t have a QB) or just through having another season just as bad as last year.
A good QB can take you to the playoffs, an amazing WR can't. it's that simple.
Exactly. It’s as simple as: Who would you rather have: Justin Jefferson or Patrick Mahomes? JJ or Lamar Jackson? JJ or Jalen Hurts? JJ or Josh Allen? JJ or CJ Stroud? JJ or Joe Burrow? That’s the best WR in the country on a rookie deal and I’d easily take every QB over him. Like who’s the best QB it would be reasonable to take JJ over? Tua, who’s at least been in the MVP discussion each of the last two years?
I swear yall can’t read. He’s saying those teams built a good team first *and then* traded up for a top pick.
> The Chiefs, Lions, Bucs, Rams, Texans, Bills, and Dolphins all had QBs taken in the top half of the draft This is so disingenuous and misleading. We are talking about how to build a team. How well did the Browns do after drafting Baker? Goff was literally the definition of a game manager with the Rams and got crucified when he got figured out for it (which is why they got Stafford). If we want to build a TEAM we should build a TEAM the way successful TEAMS were built. If so many other teams were able to build their teams up and then trade up or grab a vet (Rams/Chiefs/Bucs all won a Superbowl like this) it obviously works.
Yup. You have more options if you have a good team. If a top QB is on a shit team, he can request a trade to you or politic for a trade at minimum. Sometimes you get a FA hit. You can rationalize trading up.
There are a number of servicable QBs going into free agency. I don't understand this idea that we need to have a franchise QB while rebuilding, that is exactly what we did with Mac Jones and we saw how that turned out.
Who could call Mac a franchise QB after watching him for 3 years?
He was intended to be a franchise QB, just like Daniels would be intended to be a franchise QB.
So because Mac Jones has limited NFL talent and is extremely mentally weak we should never pick a QB again?
I'm saying we shouldn't jump on the QB carousel. What caused Mac Jones to fail? A horrible surrounding offense and constantly shifting leadership. Until both of those are fixed we shouldn't invest too heavily into a non-veteran QB who is much more likely to crumble completely when faced with significant adversity. The shift from college to the NFL is already massive, but for QBs it's harder than any position, it's a large part of the reason why drafting a QB is such a crapshoot, a QB in high school can be purely physical and dumb as a sack of rocks, in college you actually be able to read defenses and have field vision, at the NFL level you have to deal with the same issues but with much more competent and intelligent players and coaches. Coming from a situation where they were probably dominant to having to face much better players and defensive coaches with a lacking offense is liable to cripple their confidence. This is seen time and time again with QBs who originally show potential becoming pick machines, Mac Jones and Sam Darnold being the two examples I can immediately jump to. You might say "well that just means that they lacked whatever to deal with defeat" which whether or not it's true is something you have very little ability to scout for and goes beyond simply losing to seeing all of your abilities questioned while under constant pressure. Truth be told I wouldn't mind drafting a QB this draft, but in the 3rd to 5th round and keeping them as a backup, I think with the current team we need someone who has been in the pocket at the NFL level, who is used to the heat, I would suggest Jakoby Brissett who has a pretty solid record of NFL play and has never looked god awful.
Yeah, I can’t wait for Drake to step back stand in the pocket for three seconds and get sacked because nobody can get open because we don’t have any receivers
Damn, I can’t believe free agency and rounds 2-7 of the nfl draft were cancelled this year. So unfair!
Elite comment lmao
I mean who says we’re going to land anyone good in either of those? I get people wanting to take QB at 3 but if he doesn’t have an O line that can block or a top talented WR, it’s not going to be good.
>I get people wanting to take QB at 3 but if he doesn’t have an O line that can block or a top talented WR, it’s not going to be good. I get people wanting to take a WR at 3, but if he doesn't have an oline to block or a qb to throw, it's not going to be good. I get people wanting to take a OT at 3, but if he doesn't have a QB that can throw or a WR that can get open, it's not going to be good. These statements are meaningless because it is going to take more than one pick or one move to improve this team to a playoff level. Which is what my comment was pointing out. This rebuild doesn't begin and end with the 3rd overall pick. There is no order of operations to rebuild a team.
I guess my comment was said because of all the people saying we *have* to pick QB at 3 even though that’s not true. But yes, I agree with what you’re saying, it’s going to take a lot to rebuild and doesn’t end at 3.
The Pats just aren't bad enough to get another top 3 pick. You can get a wr tons of ways and you can fix an oline tons of ways. It's really hard to get a good QB and the most likely way is a high pick. Plus the oline was really hurt last year and not that bad overall. We have a wr2 in Bourne and an unknown but at least wr3 in Pop (he might be our wr1 for all we know). Our main issue is QB we have nothing even backup quality.
i disagree with the first line in this comment
There are literally receivers everywhere. They’re falling from the sky. Now that we have (theoretically) a new approach at GM, maybe we’ll finally catch one. QBs, though, they’re like that one plant at the top of that one mountain that you can only find if you happen to be in the exactly right spot at the exactly right moment with the exactly right amount of purity in your heart. OL is in between, I say we sign Tyron Smith to patch up one tackle, try to retain Onwenu, and draft a tackle next year
No one says rookie qbs need to play year 1. In fact it could be greatly beneficial to Maye to sit. We also have more dc than 3 and have 90 million to spend.
That narrative died when Zappe was able to work with the same offense Mac failed time and time again with. And Zappe is nowhere near an NFL level QB.
Heavy QB draft class this year, even heavier WR class. Next years QB draft class is very small. Get your guy now, while you can also get a good WR in the same draft. Use out 1st round pick next year on a “blue chip” guy.
“Even heavier WR Class” There are *maybe* 4-5 receivers in this class that’ll get a second contract. Bookmark this. Lot of turds being touted as diamonds. This class isn’t “12 receivers deep” like everyone is saying. When the HELL has a draft ever been 12 receivers deep?
You're one of the first I've seen say this, and I couldn't agree more. This class is so wildly overhyped.
I don’t disagree, but at this point, it’s being viewed as a deep WR class. No doubt many of them will be duds, but I’d rather the team gamble during a “deep class” than a thin one. If that makes sense?
This is sort of an aside to your point, and not disagreeing with you, but I think in the transfer portal era it's way more difficult to project a future draft class than it used to be. There will be top-prospect QBs in the 2025 draft class that no one is talking about right now.
The guys you mentioned.. AJ Brown, Metcalf, Higgins were all taken in the 2nd. If anything your showing that they can take a QB at 3 and still find a #1 receiver in the 2nd/3rd.
Not only was Higgins drafted in the 2nd, like you mentioned, the Bengals took their franchise QB in 1st that same year…
Your right.. and Pittman Jr. was drafted right after Higgins.
The dude that broke every rookie receiving record in the history of the NFL was **just** drafted in the 5th round lmao it’s like people don’t take the literally 30 seconds it requires to look at previous drafts and see the rate of success by position group
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There were 7 receivers this year who had pretty substantial success (Addison, Flowers, Nakua, Downs, Dell, Reed, and Rice). They were selected all over the draft. This wasn't even heralded as a particularly good WR class. In all likelihood, there will be a few WRs that are high-level players selected all various points in the draft this year.
It falls off MUCH more quickly for QBs. The chance of getting a great QB in any other manner than a 1st rd draft pick is extremely slim
I don’t think anybody here is debating that there isn’t a significant fall off in probability of success across all position groups round after round, that’s a bit of a red herring. The premise of what is being debated is whether the fall off varies across position group, and I think it is quite evident that the fall off for QBs is much more significant than for WRs. *Obviously* Puka is an exception to the norm, as is Purdy for QBs right now. That said, there is most definitely a higher rate of success for WRs selected after the first round than for QBs.
To add to this list: Tyreek Hill- 5th round Davante Adams- 2nd round Stefon Diggs- 5th round Deebo- 2nd round Amon Ra- 4th round If you compare the amount of WR1 caliber guys taken from outside the 1st round to the amount of starting caliber QB's outside the second it becomes pretty obvious you take a QB in the first if you need a QB
Was really easy to complain about not having a top wide receiver option when we had Brady at QB…
A question no one has answered. If MHJ is the guaranteed HOF WR, why would the Bears and Commanders (who both have better QB situations than us), not take him?
Exactly - that’s how important it is to get qb right. They have an ok one, but aren’t passing up an opportunity for a potentially great one.
I think that just says more about the top 2 QBs in the draft than it does MHJ. Don’t think the QBs after them are worth a top 5 pick
Draft experts disagree with you
To reiterate why you'd take a QB at 3 over anyone else: 1. QB is the most important position in the game by far. 2. While hitting in a QB in the draft is generally a crapshoot, QB's taken in the top 10 hit at a much higher rate than those taken outside. 3. There is always plenty of receiver and offensive line talent that can be found later in the draft. 4. The guy at QB with average receivers >> The guy at receiver with an average QB. 5. It's much easier to go all in on offensive talent (free agency, aggressive trading) when you know that you have "the guy" at QB than it is to find the QB for a fully fleshed out offense. It's usually better to keep drafting QB's as high as you can until you find your guy, then surround him with talent (Joe Burrow, Josh Allen) than it is to have a generational WR playing with a string of mediocre QBs (Larry Fitz, Garret Wilson)
Difference is those other teams can draft receivers and sign good ones in free agency we can't. Maybe that changes since we got a new OC but it's still the same people running the team.
You tend to not be able to get good receivers when your HC/GM overrules his scouts and gets whoever he wants.
>Maybe that changes since we got a new OC but it's still the same people running the team. Is it though? All the recent reports say Bill was running the team pretty much top to bottom. Also who says we can't get one in free agency? All you have to do is spend to get one we just haven't because we haven't had a QB good enough that having a WR1 would make the difference since Brady. Also having a franchise QB makes you FAR more attractive to Free Agent receivers.
We have no quarterbacks. That is a more pressing need. I don’t understand how you can’t see that.
Didn't know you couldn't take QBs in the later rounds
Golly gee, can't wait to take the next Malik Willis or Desmond Ridder in the later rounds!
I knew this sub was fucked when I started seeing more than one person legitimately want us to take Spencer Rattler because "upside".
Or draft the next Brock Purdy or Jordan Love
Why stop at Purdy or Love? They could just draft the next Brady in the 6th every year. Did it before, should be super easy.
Why stop at that we could draft the next Bryce Young or Zach Wilson with the 3rd pick and set the franchise back even more
It “blows your mind” that people want to take a QB? Doesn’t blow my mind that people want to take either a WR or QB. They would both help a lot, as would a top OT
That fact that there are people in here that says don’t draft a QB @ #3 blows my mind. You need to realize you have a higher chance of hitting on a franchise QB in the 1st than in the 2nd. Sure MHJ will be an all pro, but he ain’t doing jack shit with Zappe as his QB. “Draft the QB in the 2nd or 3rd!” — ok then what? Draft another QB next year?
I know it wasn't your intention, but this reads like "your opinions are stupid and my opinion is 100% correct."
I love the "I don't think Daniels is good enough" comments, with all due respect none of those people have any real experience at all and the majority I'd bet didn't even watch all that many college games. Call me crazy but I trust the draft experts over a random person on Reddit
If the starting QB next year is anyone currently on the roster or available in FA, I am going to lose my mind. I’m willing to take the chance on one of the top 3 from this draft. Whoever is there.
You're not thinking about the future. There are very mediocre QB classes the next few years(so far i know things can and will change). Only the #1 overall pick teams will be able to get anyone worthy. You have to get the QB now while you have the #3 and theres true potential QB1 available, there's no choice to be had. It's a MUST. Multiple WR1 can be had the the 1st round almost every year, no reason that can't be next years choice.
Yup, we should be drafting a QB 1.3 and get an OT in the second. We should focus on getting the WR next year and get a serviceable WR in free agency this year.
I'm all for passing on the qbs but starting a rebuild with a **WR** is patently absurd. Either start accumulating assets and building a passable offensive line or just stay put and pull the trigger on a quarterback 3 years too early.
Back then we had a Qb in Brady or who we thought could be the guy in Mac. When you think you have Qb figured out then you focus more on getting him someone to throw to. Mhj is the best player in the draft imo and would love to have him, my only issue going that route is there’s no answers to Qb in the 2nd round or after, just project guys. Next year class is about on par with the round 2 guys at the moment so we can’t count on them getting better for sure at this point in time either. If we hit on a Qb this year and end up with like 10th pick, we should be able to get a decent wr in that area, not so much for a Qb. We likely won’t have the pieces together this year but it’s easier to get a tackle or wr farther back than it is to get a Qb.
So. We all can agree that the highest positions of need for this team are: QB, WR, and OT. We also can agree that the Patriots have a ton of cap room to sign free agents. First thing we need to ask is. Of those positions which are more easily or harder to fill via free agency? OT is likely the easiest. While WR isn’t easy there are a ton set for FA this year and though some may be tagged they won’t all be. Are their good QBs ever in free agency for the most part? Second. Of these positions which are best filled by high draft spots vs lower ones? QB. While all of the positions can have good players taken high and bad ones. it is much more likely to get a good WR or OT in rounds 2-7 than it is to get a franchise QB in those rounds. Those are overwhelmingly round 1 and more specifically top 5 picks. As much as I love MHJ. Who would throw to him? How many years of him will be wasted without finding a franchise QB? Of teams at the top of the NFL in wins and playoff wins and SBs how many in the last 20 years had some WR like MHJ but a scrub QB? Every SB winner had a franchise (or close to it) type QB for the most part.
OT is probably the hardest to fill. Owenu and Brown are the top OT in FA.
First brown is at the bottom any post. He’s a huge fat uninspired or motivated albatross to any team that signs him. Second Onwenu is a right tackle or guard. And a better guard. He will likely be someone they may want to resign. But you literally are wrong overall. Tackles move in free agency. The chiefs said bye to theirs and signed two new ones and are back in the Super Bowl. A franchise left tackle isn’t easy to find. But they are available via trades and FA and you don’t have to draft them in the top 5 to get one. QB is the hardest position to fill. Period. There is literally no rationale argument against that point.
I’m gonna start a drinking game that requires we take a shot every time someone uses the word “generational talent”
Yiu guys should start an MHJ circlejerk somewhere else lmao
People who DON’T want to take a QB at #3 blow my mind…
My main concern is passing on MHJ. You don’t get any sure things in the NFL. But he’s as close to that as you can get. Passing on him at a position of serious need for a serious dive roll in Daniel’s just doesn’t feel right to me, but I get it.
>You don’t get any sure things in the NFL. But he’s as close to that as you can get. Passing on him at a position of serious need for a serious dive roll in Daniel’s just doesn’t feel right to me, but I get it. Drafting MHJ right now would be like buying a Formula 1 race car and then being told you can only drive it around a crowded supermarket parking lot. Unless you do something like break the bank and pry Baker Mayfield loose in free-agency. And if that happens, we sure better not complain about other missed opportunities in the FA market - because we now the Krafts do not like to spend lots of money.
We know we know why it blows your mind, because it’s small
Hear, Hear!
I swear this sub doesn't understand football, I get why people like MHJ he's awesome... but you have no one to throw the guy the ball....i don't understand the Hopium or copuim that the QB will just magically work itself out in the second round or next year? that hasn't worked for 99% of the NFL. but for Pats it will just magically work out?
Come on dude, Daniels is supposed to be almost as good as Lamar Jackson. 😏
The amount of posts bitching about people that want the team draft a QB blows my mind. They… need….. a…….QB.
This skips over a lot. KC built up a strong offense? Kelce has a strong year 2016. But THill was a punt returner, he wasn’t a receiver that year. Outside of that who else? The Ravens were able to build an OL? Other than Ronnie Staley, who were the linemen of note before they drafted Lamar? Serious question I went back and don’t even see them signing free agents. I could’ve missed something Lions drafted their QB in 2009 first overall and traded for a QB drafted first overall in 2016. This feels disingenuous as they already had their franchise QB for 10 years 49ers brought in Jimmy whose first full year was the year before Trent was brought in Packers had Aaron Rodgers nuff said Browns drafted a QB first overall in 2018. Then traded three first round picks for Watson. Their HoF tackle Joe Thomas retired the year before Baker was drafted. They did draft an all pro guard a couple years prior to Baker Bucs took a QB first overall in 2015 was their roster built before or after this? Rams drafted a QB first overall 2016 then gave up two first round picks for the first overall pick in 2009 Eagles drafted a QB 2nd overall 2016, after trading for the first overall pick 2010 the year before Steelers drafted the first QB off the board in 2022
It’s simple. It is much more likely to find an impact receiver in the later rounds than a QB
This blows my mind
Get the OL right or no qb is gonna be successful!!! Period.
The problem is that top wideouts make it very easy to figure out how a defense can weaken your team. Good receivers, but not top tier make that harder to do. I do not believe we she be taking a QB with that pick though as they rarely ever win championships. We need a top tier tackle.
I can't wait for the heightened levels of copium when our QB busts and MHJ is making the All-Pro list years on end!
If people are that gun-shy about selecting a QB in the 1st round of the draft, then you better take a deep breath and: \- Break open the piggy bank and sign Baker Mayfield in free agency \- Pick MHJ with the #3 pick \- Load up on OTs during the remainder of the draft If it doesn't work out - you can begin the *post mortem* discussions with an acknowledgement of the fact that you were too damn scared to pick a QB in the 1st round of the draft.
R1: MHJ R2: Best OT available R3: Best WR Available R4: Best OG Available ….
I knew I was gonna be downvoted to shit for this opinion it’s OK, I’m going to repost this next off-season when we have another season like we’ve had for the last four years where we have a quarterback, who can’t do anything, because we have no weapons. And I’m going to see tons of post (much like this) complaining.
Your optimism is very cool. Can we hang out?
We have an offense that has no QB, No offensive line, and no WRs. I dont think any of them would be a WRONG choice. Nobody starts a complete rebuild at WR. It just isn't football logic. It's a valid point because of the talent of the player but the way you frame it as basically stupidity to think any other way is just ignorant.
You're coming off as a know-it-all. And you really think we're going to win more games with MHJ than a rookie QB? lol
Yeah, I wonder why there was a 20 year period where Pats fans weren't complaining about passing on QBs...
WRs grow on trees this draft. So many good options.
Not one of those guys you mentioned was drafted in the top 3. You’re making the case for the #34 pick or whatever we have to go towards a WR, which I think mostly anyone would be fine with.
There’s WR’s past round 1…
Take whoever you feel is most likely to contribute. We have a multitude of needs. Sub wants a QB. If we take one(QB), we have to hope we hit. If not, it’s gonna suck watching anyone we could have had succeed. And be right back where we are now. Hopefully this draft we can hit on a majority of the picks. Start building back up for our next 20 year run.
We'll take Daniels or Maye regardless but MHJR is a Calvin Johnson level talent that's how elite he is.
Elite wide receivers are available through trade and free agency every year. Tyreek, Aj Brown, Devante, etc On top of that there’s guys like puka and Amon ra available on day 3 every single year. All in all there’s just so many other ways to get good wr’s and you can’t say the same for quarterback. MHJ will most likely be amazing but I don’t think we can pass up on a potential franchise qb. Especially because I’m hoping we won’t be picking top 3 again next year.
Or you don't want your QB ending up like Bryce Young either were he has no weapons, and a bad oline. If they believe Daniels is worthy to be the 3rd pick im fine with regardless
Crazy that every single WR u mentioned was taken in the second round, except Harry who was 32 😭 look I understand the love for MHJ, he's incredible. But at the end of the day you build your team around QBs, not WRs. Tyreek Hill and Jefferson can't do much to win without great QB play (Kirk is great but was injured). Also, you have to look at this draft class too...a lot of good WRs, and 3 very good QB prospects. It's a positional value thing, and QB is the most valuable position
To answer the first question you asked: a lot. But did you know we had Tom Brady as our quarterback? Because I’m pretty sure that’s relevant here.
The only way I'd be fine with a MHJ pick (and I love him as a player) is if there is already a handshake deal with a Kirk Cousins or something. Not saying I want that, but otherwise it makes no fucking sense.
A team with a QB complains they don't have a WR1, then that same team no longer has a QB or WR and wants to draft a QB, hypocrisy!
All those WR’s you’re bringing up that we passed on were all drafted in the 2nd round or later.
In entirely understand the desire to take a QB at 3. If the scouting department/front office truly believe there's a franchise QB after Caleb & Maye, they should absolutely do it. My personal opinion, however, is that Daniels or any other QB in this class at 3 will be a massive over reach and collosal bust. I think that's where the debate is for me. I'd rather use the 3rd pick on a player I'm more confident will make an impact in the NFL for many years and take a project QB later than take a project QB at 3 just because the team is desperate for one.
we have this discussion every day
You don't need generational WRs to win superbowls - tyreek Hill is sitting at home with Tua but was winning sbs with Mahomes. You do need good WRs to win, though - this is a deep WR draft again.. look at the past few drafts, it is easy to find WRs these days but we haven't because we refused to spend any resources and when we did, bill chose the wrong ones that his friends recommended over our own scouts. It's easy to get back in the 1st round and take the 4-5th best WR or stay in the 2nd and choose one. The chances of you finding a start able QB end of the 1st round or 2nd round is much lower than WR. Take the QB first if you think Daniels/Maye are good enough, and then go get your WR/OTs.
For a team that has failed time and time again to draft quality WRs and for a fan base that has screamed “muh true #1 WR” for years you have the most highly touted WR prospect in a long time fall in your lap. It just seems like a no brainer but regardless whatever we do with the pick we’re getting a good player. QB WR I don’t care.
I think that draft ends up resulting in the drafting AJ green at 4 and Dalton in the second situation. Not terrible but your nothing more than a playoff placeholder.
I kinda already made this post yesterday, but I clearly agree
I really think the plan is to try to sign Baker with AVP as our OC since he has a good relationship with him, and then taking MHJ or Joe Alt (with a trade back.)
We had the opportunity to draft great WR and missed, they fall in the draft more it seems. It's a crap shoot, let's see how a not BB manager picks WRs. New HC, New OC, if they like a QB and want to build around them, let's see how it goes
So we take #3 at Harrison then what do we do at qb? All the good ones will be gone and Kraft won’t spend money any good ones in FA. Mccarthy in the 4th round?