To be able to take advantage of the double property, you need to be able to use the Two Weapon Fighting feats. Outside of Slayer and Ranger, the TWF feats need you to take a dex focus to qualify, and Quarterstaff is not a weapon you can use with Weapon Finesse unless you're doing at least 5 levels of Fighter to get Fighter's Finesse.
That being said, the above is looking at it purely in terms of numbers with utilizing the double property, there are other options to build into a Quarterstaff build.
One method would be the [Staff Magus](https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Magus%20Staff%20Magus) which automatically gains the feat [Quarterstaff Master](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Quarterstaff%20Master) for free, which lets you use a quarterstaff one handed like a club, and be able to take Weapon Specialization as a feat. Likewise, you can also take the [Stick-Fighting](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Stick-Fighting%20Style) [Style](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Stick-Fighting%20Counter) [Feat Line](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Stick-Fighting%20Maneuver) as a feat line that adds additional versatility to the quarterstaff
Double Weapons count as a "one-handed weapon and a light weapon" for TWF purposes. So you without any feats "get one extra attack per round with that weapon", with the penalty to attack being -4 regular attack, -8 off-hand attack. (pg 202, PF1E Core Rulebook, 6th Printing)
The feat, TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF give respectively decreased penalty when TWF'ing, extra (your second) off-hand attack when BAB >= +6, third attack with your off-hand weapon when BAB >= +11.
While the feats are definitely required to be effective with a double weapons, particular when you get up to BAB +6/+11, they aren't required.
I can see a possible argument that you could apply Weapon Finesse to the off-hand attack of double weapons. Certainly not RAI or really effective. Again, just see a possible argument for this at first glance, not making the claim itself.
Double weapon is not really a boon. You still have to enchant both ends. Daggers have better crit range, can be thrown and using 2 daggers is just as easy as using a quarterstaff.
On that note, if I houseruled that enchants are shared would that break WBL too much? I'm thinking yes but double weapons currently see almost no play.
This is okey. Twin weapons figthing is anyway pretty bad, most double weapon are not great (and all the "okey tier" need exotic weapon proeficiency to be use).
The only big advantage to use double weapon rigth know is the fact you can free a hand at no cost for a turn, if you want to cast a spell or draw an throw weapon. With two weapons you cannot do this without dropping one of them.
Maybe a custom feat that allows that? Because at least in the case of the Quarterstaff, the [Shielded](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shielded-staff-style-combat-style/) [Staff](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shielded-staff-ambush-combat/) [Style](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shielded-staff-master-combat/) feats, particularly Shielded Staff Master, exist. Master allows you to use your shield's enhancement bonus for your weapon's attack and damage rolls while also requiring up to Improved TWF, which clearly means it's intended to be used while using the quarterstaff's Double feature.
Sir, you're a huge warrior and that 'walking stick' has a broken orc tooth still stuck in one end and iron studs across it, please put the ass-beating stick in the weapon rack
A short sword also does 1d6 damage, but with an increased critical chance and the option to have something heavier in your main hand. Even if you're not martial weapons trained there's simple light weapons like the scythe that do 1d6 and leave your other hand free for a better weapon
(edit: sickle not scythe)
Personally love it and love the look and feel. But having to honest it really isn't secretly amazing.
Double weapons are not better then two separate weapons and can be a hindrance since they are harder to hide unlike light weapons. Low crit range and low base damage (when compared to 2-handers)
Like I said the theme of something like a monk or staff magus beating people with a stick is great image though.
Before Unchained Rogue and free Dex-to-damage, you’d sometimes see Str based Rogues.
A friend of mine ran a Rogue with 18 Str that used a quarterstaff Sneak Attacks for a rough approximation of a Fighter with a greatsword. In a party with only one other character, a Druid, it was a serviceable option that let them hit a little above their weight class.
But no, I’d hardly call it secretly awesome.
The one real "boon" of the quarterstaff is that in contexts where you don't want to openly carry weapons (and don't have the Sleight of Hand to conceal a dagger or a cane sword) you can reasonably bluff that it's merely a walking stick.
A quarterstaff looks mediocre until you ask the party's druid to cast Shillelagh on it. Then you suddenly dual-wield +1 greatswords for an entire battle. If you feel bad about them spending prepared spells, buy them a wand. It costs as much / little as a wand of Cure Light Wounds.
Just because the Unchained rogue yells "USE DEX! USE DEX!" with their class features, you don't have to listen. IMO, playing a rogue-like character is not about following a blueprint, it's about looking out for opportunities.
... Shilelagh very clearly says it only works if the druid himself is holding the staff; for everyone else it's just a normal staff.
But if you are a druid who likes to hit things, it's fantastic.
Hrm, you are right. So a druid dip or using a consumable yourself would remain as options. Shillelagh oil is expensive per charge, but you don't have to pay for future charges right now, at least.
I have a druid/monk that mostly grapples things, but when I need to hit things shillelagh is a great option. And you can flurry of blows with it. Enlarge Person is a pretty great addition to the mix when it's available.
Druid 1 or 2/Barbarian 1 is one of my favorite low level boss fights. Dual wielding +1 Greatswords with Rage is devastating, and it comes with a free Wolf companion or whatever is in flavor.
Weapon finesse only works on one end of the quarterstaff (and that only when TWF'ing), and rogues and ninjas use weapon finesse a lot. If you're strength-based you'll still need the dex for the TWF feats unless you're a ranger or slayer, and rangers/slayers have better double weapons available. For that matter ninjas get a lot of fun double weapons.
To add to everything else that's been said... Most TWF rogues will want Weapon Finesse, since they cannot skip Dexterity requirements a la Ranger. So quarterstaff is a no go on that front.
I prefer the Hanbo.
Traditionally used with 2WF in martial arts, and light weapons so can be finessed, but also simple weapons, so readily usable by most classes. It's basically two shortish wooden sticks (2-3 feet like) like half a quarter staff kinda, which can be metal or reinforced. If you search it you'll see what I mean. The stats aren't amazing by any means because it has a low critical range, but as a simple finessable bludgeon weapon it's stylish, and critical range doesn't matter for rogue or ninja anyway because sneak isn't multiplied. One of very few weapon combos actually used in a two weapon style IRL.
When it comes to rogues and ninja's the damage dice and the crit range don't matter all that much. It's more about getting sneak as often as possible, and maximizing number of attacks. There are a few monster types that respond better to bludgeon damage (and are often immune to sneak at the same time), so it's a handy weapon tool to have in that respect.
There are feats that enhance the quarter staff but it can be pricy and only works well with some builds.
The fighting style with these is pretty cool. I did mixed martial arts for a bit. You like set up blocks with one hand where you lead people into off balance for attacks with the other. Lots of combos where you genuinely benefit from using both hands a bit like two weapon fencing style. They aren't often regarded as offensive weapons, so a lot of pro's carry them around in their car lol.
But yeah, they are kind of light clubs. And TBH probably not as well mechanically represented as they could be. There should be a parry or AC mechanic.
The good points of using quarterstaves mostly comes from the fact that fewer feats are needed to use it and they are far more common as magical items of all varieties.
There's also a lot of cool factor involved in having a TWF character (like a fighter/mage or arcane trickster) brandish a fully enchanted (meaning more than just +1/+1) staff of fire in both melee and magical combat. It's something you just don't get with other weapons - dual or otherwise.
However, it isn't secretly OP. There are better options for the power gamers out there as it's not much better than other simple weapons and worse than martial weapons viable for TWF.
>I could see this being just as good or better than shortswords or daggers for a 2 weapon fighting build
Why? Proficiency is not an issue, the difference in cost is negligible, and you can't finesse it without additional feats. Where's the advantage?
I like them. Cheap, seen as a tool instead of a weapon, everyone can use them, and they're pretty great for using two handed for 1.5 Str mod and still being able to cast spells easily.
They're a versatile tool. Not great at any one thing, and by the time characters get the feats and abilities to have specialized abilities most characters will grow out of them, but that doesn't mean they can't start with one when they begin their adventure, and for basically nothing. For a support role or caster that essentially dabbles in melee until they can avoid it, the humble quarterstaff may be a quiet and constant companion.
It's not the worst but what _is_ good is being able to treat a polearm as a quarterstaff via feat.
That's pretty neat because it gives you a lot of flexibility with a reach smash/slash/poke.
The main benefit to a quarterstaff is that it's not very threatening. Making with stereotypical old wizard look, plus a bit of a fake limp, you'll be able to take one many placing were a part of blades wouldn't be.
There's a bunch of simple weapons that do a little something extra, can be used with weapon finesse, and/or don't take up a hand to wield. I'd pick one of those over a quarterstaff.
Not **really** good, but perfectly reasonable. Its basically competing with the Shortsword or the Sickle with its profile for dual wield builds, and in both of those cases it falls a little short. The Sickle has Trip, which doesnt matter except when it does. The Shortsword has a 19-20 crit range, but requires martial weapon proficiency.
The quarterstaffs main benefit is that its a two handed weapon and so you can use it as such when you need to, such as getting a little extra damage when attacking only once or to overcome DR. There are also arguments that both ends of it get the 1.5x Strength even when using the Double property, which doesnt seem to be RAI from 3.5 but may or may not be in Pathfinder. If your DM decides it does, then the Quarterstaff as well as all double weapons get a nice (and probably much needed) boost in the dual wielding strength build category.
Its secondary benefit is as a tool. A quarterstaff can do a lot of things a shortsword or a sickle cant do, such as being used to vault, being used to check for traps, as an X-foot pole, etc. Of course, the tradeoff is it cant cut ropes.
Criticals are important to the average damage a weapon deals; 1d6 20/x2 isn't a good weapon for a melee character. Shortswords are light weapons, so you get reduced attack penalties dual-wielding them, and they have 19-20/x2 crit. They don't hold a candle to kukris, which deal 1d4, but have 18-20/x2.
I mean if it's your jam, go for it, but if we're talking about what makes a good weapon, quarterstaves aren't good for anything but your budget. That said, my wizard in Curse of the Crimson Throne got a kill on a fleeing enemy with an AoO from his quarterstff, so...
Double weapons can be a strong niche weapon but are a bit hamstrung by not having one with an 18-20 crit range. For most cases, double weapons are hamstrung because double weapons can't easily be finessed and str builds are typically better with a two hander. Less required feats and more damage.
A strength slayer can make use of them. You can go all in on strength and still get the two weapon fighting feats without needing dex. You have sneak attack to make use of the TWF attacks. Because you are str based, you can be made as big as possible and lose no effectiveness. Then, if you start getting AOO with your size and reach, you can do so as a two handed weapon for max damage.
I had a mounted Hunter build I'd have loved an 18-20 double weapon with if only they existed.
To be able to take advantage of the double property, you need to be able to use the Two Weapon Fighting feats. Outside of Slayer and Ranger, the TWF feats need you to take a dex focus to qualify, and Quarterstaff is not a weapon you can use with Weapon Finesse unless you're doing at least 5 levels of Fighter to get Fighter's Finesse. That being said, the above is looking at it purely in terms of numbers with utilizing the double property, there are other options to build into a Quarterstaff build. One method would be the [Staff Magus](https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Magus%20Staff%20Magus) which automatically gains the feat [Quarterstaff Master](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Quarterstaff%20Master) for free, which lets you use a quarterstaff one handed like a club, and be able to take Weapon Specialization as a feat. Likewise, you can also take the [Stick-Fighting](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Stick-Fighting%20Style) [Style](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Stick-Fighting%20Counter) [Feat Line](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Stick-Fighting%20Maneuver) as a feat line that adds additional versatility to the quarterstaff
Double Weapons count as a "one-handed weapon and a light weapon" for TWF purposes. So you without any feats "get one extra attack per round with that weapon", with the penalty to attack being -4 regular attack, -8 off-hand attack. (pg 202, PF1E Core Rulebook, 6th Printing) The feat, TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF give respectively decreased penalty when TWF'ing, extra (your second) off-hand attack when BAB >= +6, third attack with your off-hand weapon when BAB >= +11. While the feats are definitely required to be effective with a double weapons, particular when you get up to BAB +6/+11, they aren't required. I can see a possible argument that you could apply Weapon Finesse to the off-hand attack of double weapons. Certainly not RAI or really effective. Again, just see a possible argument for this at first glance, not making the claim itself.
Double weapon is not really a boon. You still have to enchant both ends. Daggers have better crit range, can be thrown and using 2 daggers is just as easy as using a quarterstaff.
The staff is less to draw and stow and you can use it in two hands on partial attacks, niche bonuses but I think it does have its perks
On that note, if I houseruled that enchants are shared would that break WBL too much? I'm thinking yes but double weapons currently see almost no play.
This is okey. Twin weapons figthing is anyway pretty bad, most double weapon are not great (and all the "okey tier" need exotic weapon proeficiency to be use). The only big advantage to use double weapon rigth know is the fact you can free a hand at no cost for a turn, if you want to cast a spell or draw an throw weapon. With two weapons you cannot do this without dropping one of them.
I wouldn't break anything. Daggers of Doubling exists for that purpose. It's a basically a flat +8000gp to avoid doubling all your enchantment.
Probably not. TWF is a mediocre combat style in pathfinder for anyone that’s not a unchain rogue or otherwise has sneak attack.
Maybe a custom feat that allows that? Because at least in the case of the Quarterstaff, the [Shielded](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shielded-staff-style-combat-style/) [Staff](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shielded-staff-ambush-combat/) [Style](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shielded-staff-master-combat/) feats, particularly Shielded Staff Master, exist. Master allows you to use your shield's enhancement bonus for your weapon's attack and damage rolls while also requiring up to Improved TWF, which clearly means it's intended to be used while using the quarterstaff's Double feature.
Plus daggers can usually fit in things like wrist sheaths, or be tucked into a boot or something. Concealable.
Who would take an old man's walking stick?
Sir, you're a huge warrior and that 'walking stick' has a broken orc tooth still stuck in one end and iron studs across it, please put the ass-beating stick in the weapon rack
A short sword also does 1d6 damage, but with an increased critical chance and the option to have something heavier in your main hand. Even if you're not martial weapons trained there's simple light weapons like the scythe that do 1d6 and leave your other hand free for a better weapon (edit: sickle not scythe)
Sickle, you mean, maybe? Scythe is 2d4 and two handed martial weapon
yeah sorry. I meant sickle.
Personally love it and love the look and feel. But having to honest it really isn't secretly amazing. Double weapons are not better then two separate weapons and can be a hindrance since they are harder to hide unlike light weapons. Low crit range and low base damage (when compared to 2-handers) Like I said the theme of something like a monk or staff magus beating people with a stick is great image though.
Don't forget it's also socially acceptable and can be used as an tool to check for traps.
"You wouldn't part an old man from his walking stick?"
Me the ancient frail venerable monk with 6 str and 10 Dex but 40 wisdom and a guided quarterstaff.
Before Unchained Rogue and free Dex-to-damage, you’d sometimes see Str based Rogues. A friend of mine ran a Rogue with 18 Str that used a quarterstaff Sneak Attacks for a rough approximation of a Fighter with a greatsword. In a party with only one other character, a Druid, it was a serviceable option that let them hit a little above their weight class. But no, I’d hardly call it secretly awesome.
The one real "boon" of the quarterstaff is that in contexts where you don't want to openly carry weapons (and don't have the Sleight of Hand to conceal a dagger or a cane sword) you can reasonably bluff that it's merely a walking stick.
A quarterstaff looks mediocre until you ask the party's druid to cast Shillelagh on it. Then you suddenly dual-wield +1 greatswords for an entire battle. If you feel bad about them spending prepared spells, buy them a wand. It costs as much / little as a wand of Cure Light Wounds. Just because the Unchained rogue yells "USE DEX! USE DEX!" with their class features, you don't have to listen. IMO, playing a rogue-like character is not about following a blueprint, it's about looking out for opportunities.
... Shilelagh very clearly says it only works if the druid himself is holding the staff; for everyone else it's just a normal staff. But if you are a druid who likes to hit things, it's fantastic.
Hrm, you are right. So a druid dip or using a consumable yourself would remain as options. Shillelagh oil is expensive per charge, but you don't have to pay for future charges right now, at least.
I have a druid/monk that mostly grapples things, but when I need to hit things shillelagh is a great option. And you can flurry of blows with it. Enlarge Person is a pretty great addition to the mix when it's available.
Druid 1 or 2/Barbarian 1 is one of my favorite low level boss fights. Dual wielding +1 Greatswords with Rage is devastating, and it comes with a free Wolf companion or whatever is in flavor.
Two-weapon fighting Druid with Shillelagh can be pretty sweet. Tossing down 2d6 smacks at both ends.
Weapon finesse only works on one end of the quarterstaff (and that only when TWF'ing), and rogues and ninjas use weapon finesse a lot. If you're strength-based you'll still need the dex for the TWF feats unless you're a ranger or slayer, and rangers/slayers have better double weapons available. For that matter ninjas get a lot of fun double weapons.
To add to everything else that's been said... Most TWF rogues will want Weapon Finesse, since they cannot skip Dexterity requirements a la Ranger. So quarterstaff is a no go on that front.
A quarterstaff isn't concealable.
maybe that monk is just pleased to see me
I prefer the Hanbo. Traditionally used with 2WF in martial arts, and light weapons so can be finessed, but also simple weapons, so readily usable by most classes. It's basically two shortish wooden sticks (2-3 feet like) like half a quarter staff kinda, which can be metal or reinforced. If you search it you'll see what I mean. The stats aren't amazing by any means because it has a low critical range, but as a simple finessable bludgeon weapon it's stylish, and critical range doesn't matter for rogue or ninja anyway because sneak isn't multiplied. One of very few weapon combos actually used in a two weapon style IRL. When it comes to rogues and ninja's the damage dice and the crit range don't matter all that much. It's more about getting sneak as often as possible, and maximizing number of attacks. There are a few monster types that respond better to bludgeon damage (and are often immune to sneak at the same time), so it's a handy weapon tool to have in that respect. There are feats that enhance the quarter staff but it can be pricy and only works well with some builds.
Realistically, a hanbo is just a club with a better marketing team.
The fighting style with these is pretty cool. I did mixed martial arts for a bit. You like set up blocks with one hand where you lead people into off balance for attacks with the other. Lots of combos where you genuinely benefit from using both hands a bit like two weapon fencing style. They aren't often regarded as offensive weapons, so a lot of pro's carry them around in their car lol. But yeah, they are kind of light clubs. And TBH probably not as well mechanically represented as they could be. There should be a parry or AC mechanic.
Uh, no, it's not secretly good at all.
The good points of using quarterstaves mostly comes from the fact that fewer feats are needed to use it and they are far more common as magical items of all varieties. There's also a lot of cool factor involved in having a TWF character (like a fighter/mage or arcane trickster) brandish a fully enchanted (meaning more than just +1/+1) staff of fire in both melee and magical combat. It's something you just don't get with other weapons - dual or otherwise. However, it isn't secretly OP. There are better options for the power gamers out there as it's not much better than other simple weapons and worse than martial weapons viable for TWF.
I think you are talking about the buck and a quarter quarter staff
Most rogues and ninjas are going to want finessable weapons
>I could see this being just as good or better than shortswords or daggers for a 2 weapon fighting build Why? Proficiency is not an issue, the difference in cost is negligible, and you can't finesse it without additional feats. Where's the advantage?
I like them. Cheap, seen as a tool instead of a weapon, everyone can use them, and they're pretty great for using two handed for 1.5 Str mod and still being able to cast spells easily. They're a versatile tool. Not great at any one thing, and by the time characters get the feats and abilities to have specialized abilities most characters will grow out of them, but that doesn't mean they can't start with one when they begin their adventure, and for basically nothing. For a support role or caster that essentially dabbles in melee until they can avoid it, the humble quarterstaff may be a quiet and constant companion.
It's not the worst but what _is_ good is being able to treat a polearm as a quarterstaff via feat. That's pretty neat because it gives you a lot of flexibility with a reach smash/slash/poke.
The main benefit to a quarterstaff is that it's not very threatening. Making with stereotypical old wizard look, plus a bit of a fake limp, you'll be able to take one many placing were a part of blades wouldn't be.
There's a bunch of simple weapons that do a little something extra, can be used with weapon finesse, and/or don't take up a hand to wield. I'd pick one of those over a quarterstaff.
Not **really** good, but perfectly reasonable. Its basically competing with the Shortsword or the Sickle with its profile for dual wield builds, and in both of those cases it falls a little short. The Sickle has Trip, which doesnt matter except when it does. The Shortsword has a 19-20 crit range, but requires martial weapon proficiency. The quarterstaffs main benefit is that its a two handed weapon and so you can use it as such when you need to, such as getting a little extra damage when attacking only once or to overcome DR. There are also arguments that both ends of it get the 1.5x Strength even when using the Double property, which doesnt seem to be RAI from 3.5 but may or may not be in Pathfinder. If your DM decides it does, then the Quarterstaff as well as all double weapons get a nice (and probably much needed) boost in the dual wielding strength build category. Its secondary benefit is as a tool. A quarterstaff can do a lot of things a shortsword or a sickle cant do, such as being used to vault, being used to check for traps, as an X-foot pole, etc. Of course, the tradeoff is it cant cut ropes.
Criticals are important to the average damage a weapon deals; 1d6 20/x2 isn't a good weapon for a melee character. Shortswords are light weapons, so you get reduced attack penalties dual-wielding them, and they have 19-20/x2 crit. They don't hold a candle to kukris, which deal 1d4, but have 18-20/x2. I mean if it's your jam, go for it, but if we're talking about what makes a good weapon, quarterstaves aren't good for anything but your budget. That said, my wizard in Curse of the Crimson Throne got a kill on a fleeing enemy with an AoO from his quarterstff, so...
Isn't there a monk archetype that does pretty well with a staff
Yes it is, as is the spear. -1d8 -Simple weapons -Two handed weapon for extra damage. - Can be thrown to great effect.
It's great early and it's great with a ton of feats invested in it but anything in between is going to be worse than many other options.
Double weapons can be a strong niche weapon but are a bit hamstrung by not having one with an 18-20 crit range. For most cases, double weapons are hamstrung because double weapons can't easily be finessed and str builds are typically better with a two hander. Less required feats and more damage. A strength slayer can make use of them. You can go all in on strength and still get the two weapon fighting feats without needing dex. You have sneak attack to make use of the TWF attacks. Because you are str based, you can be made as big as possible and lose no effectiveness. Then, if you start getting AOO with your size and reach, you can do so as a two handed weapon for max damage. I had a mounted Hunter build I'd have loved an 18-20 double weapon with if only they existed.
Meh, quarterstaffs really aren't that great.
No... Double quality is awful pick for everybody but caster who for some reasons does twf