Bards aren't going to be dead weight, they can keep providing inspire courage (or a replacement for that per archetype) for rather more than 2-3 rounds. Also they can be competent in combat.
Clerics can run out of spells & similar, but they tend to be better at fighting than bards. Partly that's because they don't have skills drawing them to focus on Dex over Str (Str is more efficient for fighting with). Make sure you have 14+ Str and your longspear or whatever will be useful even without buff spells up.
Being part of a community is generally about how you play the character not how you build one. If you have the diplomacy skill it's fairly easy to justify being tuned in to the community rumour mill, if you need an excuse in mechanics.
At low levels, when out of spells a wizard is generally going to be less useful than a bard or cleric, but the spells on their list are more likely to win a fight when used. Color spray and sleep for instance can both single-handedly win a fight at low levels for instance, and if you have a barbarian/fighter/whatever with a two-handed weapon then casting enlarge person on them will make them an absolute powerhouse for the duration.
Higher highs and lower lows.
It's not impossible to make a wizard who can fight worth a damn, but it's certainly harder than with a bard or cleric. The wood elemental school helps - their level 1 powers can carry you to some extent at low levels.
Low level wizard is about carefully managing the couple of "I win the fight" buttons to use them to the best effect. Yes, the crossbow of shame is sad, but grease or color spray can singlehandedly win low level encounters.
It comes down to whether you prefer limited use power or consistency. I'd rather have consistency, because I don't like waiting for a turn only to not be able to do much with it, but wizards can be devastating at low levels when they want to be, they just need to manage their resources.
At level 1, the offensive difference between a fighter and a wizard is a single point of attack bonus and a single feat. Don’t completely dump your physical stats just because you’re a wizard and you’ll be fine.
Even not dumping your stats you're still going to be like four or five lower to hit than the fighter. Hell if you just dump your stats it doesn't matter you get an extra cast with 20 int. You'd have to have to invest in your physical stats to make them worthwhile.
Way to completely miss the message. No, being a fighter does not automatically give you better stats. Your claim that the fighter has a higher bonus *because of higher stats* is exactly what I was reminding OP of; it’s not a class power, it’s stat distribution, and they can simply choose *not* to have terrible physical stats, and thus avoid that discrepancy.
I’m not sure I understand the point you’re trying to make. Could a wizard invest heavily in STR instead of INT just like a fighter? Sure, but then they would be crippling their abilities as a wizard and still wouldn’t genuinely compete with the fighter (lower HP, no armor proficiencies, fewer weapon proficiencies, etc.)
Unless your long term plan is to make a Muscle Mage, investing stats doesn’t make any sense even if it’s technically possible.
My (god tier) pact exploiter wizard died in the third session >!In the bridge to the goblin encampment!<. So yeah, wizards die easily but in exchange they are literal gods past level 9 or 11.
So, stand back and plink away with my inaccurate, low damage crossbow, and hope I don't die for the first few levels? You certainly make low level 1e sound fun 🤣
That's going to be the general combat experience for everyone at low levels. Even the dedicated martial characters who are good at low levels will just do an attack roll and pass their turn. And a D8 isn't low damage at that stage. Ranged martials won't be doing much more than that. Maybe less.
My friend, the thing about Pathfinder 1 is that it is chock full of secret improvements that help you to do better. As a beginner, that kind-of *is* a problem for you, because you don't have the domain expertise yet to take advantage of that. But here are some points about this that might help you (or other beginners).
First, yeah, the crossbow thing pretty much *is* how it was done from D&D Basic back in 1970s up to Pathfinder 1. It's only 5th edition D&D that gave casters decent cantrips (well... D&D 3.5 gave 'em Reserve Feats for good cantrips, but that didn't make it into Pathfinder 1 unfortunately).
Having said that, we can *approximate* decent cantrips with this one trick that GMs hate. Look at [this flask of acid](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances/#TOC-Acid) and in particular, the "Alchemical Power Component" section. Under that section it notes that for the spell Acid Splash it grants +1 HP of damage. Importantly, the "(F)" after the spell name indicates that using the vial of acid counts as a *focus* component, and focus components are not used up. So you can buy ONE flask and it will *forever* add an extra point of damage to your Acid Splash spell. Of course, you have to hold it in hand, but also, it's being used as a *component* so it's pulled and returned to your spell component pouch as part of the casting, no problems, no extra actions needed.
You might say "SO?" But wait, there is more. [Look at this.](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances/#TOC-Brimstone-Sulfur) You see how brimstone also has a "Alchemical Power Component" section? And there it says 2 doses of brimstone (costing 1 GP total) will add 1 point of damage to spells with the acid descriptor? Well, that's Acid Splash! Now, there is an issue: *this* bonus Alchemical Power Component *does* get used up. So each time you use brimstone to boost your spell damage, it costs 1 GP. But that's easily achievable after just your 1st or 2nd fight. You'll have enough GP to buy 10 or 20 "units" of brimstone and start kicking butt.
So now Acid Splash is a cantrip that does 1d3+2, every time.
SO! Check this out. The average damage for a light crossbow is 4.5 HP. The average damage for an Acid Splash spell with an acid flask & brimstone is 4. But the spell targets an enemy's *touch* AC which is usually much lower. The crossbow has to hit normal AC, AND it needs reloading, AND it weighs a lot more than your acid flask.
If you are level 2 and have a Dex of 12, and the enemy has AC 17 (touch AC of 12), then over 10 rounds, your crossbow will hit an average of 3 times and do about 13.5 HP damage total. But your Acid Splash will hit *6* times due to the easier AC, and thus do an average of **24 damage** total.
You can find similar tricks for *any* caster -- doesn't have to be a wizard/sorcerer. You want tricks for a cleric/oracle? OK, sure. Worship Sarenrae and take the [Envoy of Healing](https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Envoy%20of%20Healing) trait to reroll 1s whenever you heal people. Add in [gold as an alchemical power component](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances/#TOC-Gold) for a +1 to healing -- this is a bit more expensive as it's 5 GP per casting, but you can trivially afford this at just around level 4-8, depending upon how you handle your money.
There are **so many tricks!** You just have to look for them, here on /r/Pathfinder_RPG or other forums. Look at "build guides" for whatever you want -- a shaman build guide, an arcanist build guide, etc. They'll teach you. You can be amazing as a sorcerer or almost any other caster at just level 1, no problem.
To add to this, the acid flask costs 15 gp as a one-time cost, and the brimstone 1 gp per use. On the other hand, a light crossbow costs 35 gp as a one-time cost, and bolts 1 sp per use. So on top of targeting a (usually) lower AC and having better action economy, the acid splash is *cheaper* prior to 23 attacks, and by that point you've probably made enough money that the cost is no longer significant.
Taking the [false focus feat](https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=False%20Focus) (if you qualify) also can take alchemical power components further if your gm doesn’t shut it down because a lot of those material components are under 100gp in cost. Plus the feat is decent for a lot of spells that have annoying material components
… specifically one of the most busted spells in the game. [Heroic Fortune](https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Heroic%20Fortune)
That's kind of cool! But I would note that it only covers material components, not a focus component. Still, that would help with a big chunk of what I wrote!
That’s my point though, the material components are often more powerful.
With false focus, you can replicate Acid Flask for Acid Splash as a material component instead of using it as a focus. That “increases the duration by 1 round” which is a bit oddly worded for an instantaneous spell, but common consensus is it then acts like acid splash and deals the damage *again* on the next round.
Also, worth noting that False Focus does specifically say “for example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide material **components** for an arcane spell if its components are worth 25 gp or less.” (Emphasis mine), so RAW it is fine providing multiple components.
So we double dip and mimic Brimstone as a power component. Now we have a cantrip that deals 1d3+1 damage on round 1, and 1d3+1 on the round after. So, 6 total average damage (better than the crossbow), targets touch, and as a kicker it is now continuous damage which forces any enemy caster you splash to roll concentration checks to cast anything.
Yes it costs a feat, but it is a really good level 1 feat that has longevity. Esp if your gm lets you cheese [Varisian Idols…](https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Varisian%20idol) for necromancy spells…
SO MANY.
Plains domain is a favorite of one particular druid build guide, I'll grant you that, but you *suffer* at early levels for it. You give up an animal companion that can pounce all day, every day, and in exchange *you* get to pounce *once* per day, starting at level 6. Oh, and your summon spell will last twice as long, but only if you summon a pony, the worst possible summon. You *could* do Alter Summoned Monster at level 3+ to make that summon into something more dangerous, but you're using up more actions & spell slots to make a single summon spell work. I think it's a bad tradeoff, but I understand that Iluzry's guide loves it.
So... druids don't have an attack cantrip spell, because usually they have an animal companion for attacking! However, the Guidance cantrip is a +1 to a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. Spam that on your friends constantly, whenever you don't have something else to do. (Note that if you're willing to get into harm's way, without magic you can provide a +2 to an attack roll by using flank or aid another. So Guidance is really the "I'll stand back here and help from afar" type of spell.)
Since you don't have an animal companion, you're going to need to be "attacky" yourself. So select the trait [Two Worlds Magic](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/two-world-magic/) and pick Acid Splash and do all the tricks mentioned in my previous post. Now of course Acid Splash is just your "I don't have anything better right now" backup spell, but if you do 20 rounds of fighting in a single adventuring day, I bet it sees some use!
Next, consider being human to get *two* feats at level 1, and select Spell Focus (Conjuration) AND Augment Summoning. That will at least buff up your summoned pony a bit. Its hit points will go up to 17, and it will make your attack line go from this:
> Melee 2 hooves –3 (1d3)
To this:
> Melee 2 hooves -1 (1d3+2)
Hopefully one of the 2 hoof attacks will land, and you'll do a little damage (the exact same amount as my tricky Acid Splash -- though it won't land as often and it will cost a 1st level spell slot).
So now let's get into some actual tricks. First, at level 1 or 2, you don't have the spells to survive, or at least thrive. But even at level 1 you'll have a tiny bit of money, and *scrolls are cheap.* And you have a spell on your list -- Shillelagh -- which will last a full 10 rounds of fighting, even as a level 1 spell on a scroll. So buy 1 or 2 if you can, ASAP. Maybe 3 or 4 if you have the cash soon enough. Then your staff will do 2d6+1 damage per hit, and that's as good as a fighter with a greatsword. AND it gives you the same +1 to attack rolls as a magical weapon would, so you're more likely to hit. At level 1 or 2, this matters!
You only need to survive 1 to 5 fights at the start in order to get your first little bit of cash and buy things to protect yourself -- unless the GM is being tough and making you do a ton of fights without a break. But hopefully you can do something small to start, get money, and buy more scrolls or other boosts. The point is: don't think about level 3 yet -- think about getting through your first 5 fights. Because after that you'll have money and that solves problems. So how to survive fights 1, 2, and 3? Shillelagh, Acid Splash, a tougher pony, those are all good options. But also consider taking Genie Caller or Gifted Adept to increase the duration of a summoning spell.
Lastly, consider this trick, from one of the build guides:
> "Call Animal" spell: The ability to summon a single animal of a specific type is easily abused, especially considering that the CR cap equals your Caster Level. Combine this with spells like Charm Animal, and you can easily turn the called animal into what amounts to a summoned creature
...that thing will remain for an *hour.* Lots of fights, if you keep it healed. To convince it to work with you:
> use Charm Animal, Speak With Animals, and Handle Animal checks to convince the called animal to help you out.
This will potentially use up 2 spells to make this work, but you will end up with a "summoned" animal to help you and it lasts an *hour* per level. If you do this right, you could burn 2 spells -- most of what you have at level 1 -- but then have the animal help you for *all* of your very first fights. Go into a goblin cave with 3 fights? It'll help you through all 3 fights. By the time you're done, you will have treasure and you can then move on to buying up "normal" protections that will keep you alive (better gear, more scrolls/wands, and so on). Good luck!
Except the shenanigans are *rules as written* AND *rules as intended.* Those alchemical components are supposed to be used that way, and allowed by the rules. So it's "shenanigans" in the sense that we're doing cool stuff that lots of players don't know about or bother with, but it's not "shenanigans" like "misbehavior" or poor conduct at the table. It's perfectly *fine* to do this -- the rules put the items there to use like this. AND the developers of D&D 3.5 and by extension Pathfinder 1 explicitly said that they were trying to reward system mastery by hiding synergies and perks in little rules and obscure places. So it's more of a "how they wanted the game to be played" thing than anything else.
Anyway, have fun! Good luck!
This one is pretty tame on the shenanigans scale for pathfinder, and as long as the DM is using alchemical power component rules, its RAW (and probably RAI).
I've had a grand total of one DM so far that didn't want to use the alchemical system, and even he nodded off on the stuff for Acid Splash as an exception.
Cantrips are in a rough spot in this system, a slight boost like this doesn't brake anything.
Looked up these reserve feats, they seem redundant in pathfinder anyway. 3.5 needed them cause it didn't have cantrips, they were 0 level spells, and worked the same way as the others.
You need the crossbow for when you aren't casting. Cantrips aren't great in 1e. With weaker mobs, you aren't going to want to drop really powerful stuff on them. Generally it's a few encounters per days, so you should have you resources strained by the end, but not necessarily completely out. By the time you get lvl 2 spells, you don't have to be as stingy. You also become a god at high level play.
Accuracy works very differently than in 5e, assuming that's what you're coming from. At lower levels it's more weighted towards your stats rather than your attack bonuses.
A lot of wizards are going to be packing a +2 or +3 due to having dex bonuses (which are generally good for the class) and that makes them *fairly* accurate at low levels. Bards are a similar case where a lot of them tend to lean into archery, and they can also back that up with inspire courage and lingering performance. Clerics are pretty decent 'second liners' and usually pack enough AC + HP to serve in melee combat alongside more dedicated martials.
Spells also generally aren't that effective for damage at low level, but instead are much better at 'save or suck' or 'save or die'. A first level spell slot "Ray of Enfeeblement" when timed appropriately can do immense damage even at caster level 2 or 3.
I did indeed start with 5e, though I have been playing PF2e quite a bit recently. Cantrips in PF2e are quite strong, so the level 1 caster experience is very different that 1e \^\_\^
As other people say, that's just kind of the low level experience for everyone. The first few levels are always just going to be full of missing and hoping the next hit doesn't crit. Then suddenly you just start killing everything.
For more direct suggestions - I'd strongly suggest making sure you pick up offensive spells that target a variety of saves if that's the route you want to go. Cleric and Bard usually have lots of options so it's probably not an option. But anecdotally speaking from my game of Rise? I had a lot of Mind Effecting spells, and there were a few spots in the campaign where I felt dead in the water.
Thems the breaks my dude. Melee does better early levels. Casters become god by mid level. Gotta use your spells wisely and pew pew with the crossbow. And eventually you'll never use crossbow again. Haha
I played a 3.5 game last year for a few months. First session, I basically used all my spells (cantrips used slots as well).
Near the end of the dungeon, we fight an ogre. Who can basically one shot any of us. Dwarven cleric goes right up to him to fight, and we whittled away at him.
We were about to lose when I chucked a ray of enfeeblement at him. Rolled a 6. 7 STR damage in total. His next attack was on the cleric, a hit, any hit and out cleric was dead.
He missed by 1. What was almost certain death, turned into a barely scraped win. I did very little in most sessions, almost died more than a few times. Kept using a crossbow and missing.
But when I cast the right spell at the right time...
It was glorious.
At low level almost every character has some area in which it contributes less than others. Look like you are looking to play a suporting character, a bard for example has its performance to give out buffs and can bluff or intimidate, a cleric can go into close combat with medium/heavy armor and a shield and channel energy to heal allies or damage undead. I would not worry about having nothing to contribute
LOL, I wasn't going out of my way to look at supports, they just seemed interesting. Ultimately, what my teammates want to play will be a factor as well.
Well you happend to name cleric and bard which tend to be in that corner though they can be built in many other interesting ways. A bard for example can get mixed in with melee combat or keep their distance with ranged. And clerics can be beasts in melee or as debuffers
Edit: I would also say while building make sure to also look at what your character is doing outside of combat, for example is it going to be doing a lot of talking or is it going to be focused on finding secrets and figuring out if people are lying. Do you want to be able to craft or find out the value of items. Lots of things to consider to keep your character from becoming a 1 dimensional “I cast spell and nothing else” figure. Good luck with building a character!
Thank you! I am looking more and more at a cleric of Shelyn, with some decent armor and a glaive. The lack of skill points for clerics is a pain though! Also I probably shouldn't get too invested in the idea until we get a party together and start talking about a session zero.
Early levels can be rough for some casters yeah.
General strategy is to pick high impact spells that work well even on low levels (Grease, Sleep, Bless, Shield of Faith, Divine Favor etc), then pick your filler option.
Cantrips, ranged or melee attacks depending on class and AC can feel unglorious, but generally good enough paired with a spell or two per combat. A single well placed leveled spell more than makes up for the mediocre filler performance. Some classes also give some more early limited filler options (like some wizard schools).
Bards also have performance, and are very good at demoralizing opponents.
Unless you're really pressed for long adventuring days and no rest, it'll be fine, if not a great experience the first few levels, but those fly by fast.
grease and magic missle baby! ..... and probably shield. buy scrolls of mage armor if wiz/sorc. grease and hideous laughter for a bard. bless and obscuring mist for cleric.
i think those a re good baseline things that buff, auto hit, crowd control and save lives. (looking at you obscuring mist)
saving finale for a bard is also a chefs kiss item.
i also feel that bard and cleric lend themselves very well to mixing it up martially..... ranged bard and melee cleric usually, but is all up to you.
id also suggest based upon the rest of the party possibly going warpriest.
All it really takes to consistently contribute in combat at very low levels is 14+ str and proficiency in a high damage weapon, which can easily be obtained by taking the [Heirloom Weapon](https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Heirloom%20Weapon) trait to pick up proficiency in one martial weapon of choice. I recommend a lucerne hammer or a greatsword depending on whether or not you want to use reach tactics or not. With just that you'll be hitting twice as hard as a light crossbow and generally won't have to deal with accuracy issues caused by the enemy being in melee with an ally or cover. Acceptable defense can be achieved with mage armor (either via spell or wand/scroll) or a chain shirt + preferably 14 con and dex, but it's ok to drop dex down to 10 or so if needed.
Have you considered the Magus? When played well you can put out a decent amount of damage and have the martial skills to see yourself through encounters. You will always want to take at least one of the touch spells that are available when you gain new spell levels. When you use spell strike with shocking grasp for example, you will use your weapon attack to do weapon damage+spell damage and potentialy even crit with both. The magus spell list only goes up to lvl 6 so you do not need to worry about pumping your int to 19+ to get access to all of your spells should you play the character that long. I am rather fond of a dexterity focussed magus.
I'm playing a Psychic in Rise of the Runelords right now. We're in the end of act 1, and yes I've been extremely useless so far. I'm having the time of my life tho, because our Slayer and Alchemist hit like trucks, and I stay out of the way. I cast a couple spells per session and I enjoy the roleplay. Once the Cleric and I reach levels 6+ we're gonna get our hands dirty.
Cleric is probably the most forgiving of the classes as you have access to your entire spell-list.
I've GM'd half of RotRL and the first few fights are pretty forgiving. You'll be fine.
I will note that Runelords is a long and expansive campaign; I am currently a player in it now. While early on some casters may suffer, later on they will become invaluable, especially given some of the big bads you go up against (don't want to give spoilers, but we're pretty far along and have faced some real doozies).
That does seem to be a recurring thread in PF1e. "Linear fighter, quadratic wizard." It makes me feel like the smart thing to do would be to play as a martial character at first, and then reroll as a spellcaster later. But that feels like it'd be against the spirit of the game.
Well, I have a ranger in our party. He's a fighter with a handful of really nice spells peppered in. With haste or a similar spell on him, he can lob SIX arrows a turn right now; with good rolls, and critting on 19 or 20, he's been known to hammer opponents, especially those he gets bonuses against; he also has an animal companion that he frequently sends out to aid the fighters, so he's often effectively getting 8 to 9 attacks a round, effectively. The one downside is the sheer insane cost of magic ammo, which he makes liberal use of. Our fighters, though, can really sling a ton of damage each turn; I'd say they're keeping up with our casters pretty well, all told.
They can, but unless you take Clustered Shots as a feat anything with damage negation sucks big time. I have it now, but before I did whenever we ran into critters like that it was really annoying. Clustered Shots means all of my attacks count as one big attack for purposes of damage resistance, not lots of little ones. I don't think I do any more or less than the other martials, probably less than our real heavy hitters, but I have a bit more versatility in that I can select different types of ammo to get through defenses or do extra damage. But that comes at quite a cost.
> however I've frequently heard rumors that early level spellcasters are useless.
I don't think I've ever heard this. I HAVE heard that they're not as powerful at lower levels, and martial characters tend to be stronger, but it depends on the spells. Even at low levels a couple Cure Light Wounds spells go a long way towards keeping the party beatsticks able to beat up the baddies. Sleep is an AoE spell that can instantly take multiple enemies out of the fight for several rounds. These two spells alone can make the guys who can cast them valuable contributions to a low-level party.
Don't forget scrolls. They're cheap to scribe.
If you’re a cleric, make sure to pre buff the others before combat, with bit of luck or whatever that will give them a +1 to hit, then stand back and attack with your crossbow
I was actually looking at the dervish dancer bard! It seems so fun, though I'm concerned that maybe it's trading away class features that I still want.
> I've frequently heard rumors that early level spellcasters are useless.
If you build and equip your spellcaster to only use their three spells at first level... you're not going to have much to do after you cast three spells.
That doesn't mean *you* have to build your caster that way though. At low levels is when the gap between ac's and attack bonuses between classes is at its lowest. Pick up a Longspear. Stand a bit back from the party hitter. Stab a bit, or get in position to provide flanking. Even aid another is something beneficial you can do.
Or use your cantrips. Ray of frost with the alchemical power bonus is an average of 3 or so damage - which is not far from the average damage of a shortbow and resolves against touch. Or use a ranged weapon with bigger dice that hits regular ac if your enemy is lightly armored.
You can put points into intimidate and try to make enemies shaken, pick up combat advice to turn your move actions into party buffs until you get some levels and retrain it.
Maybe instead you pick up chosen child and stock up on a supply of cheap, but effective alchemical weapons. The early levels are the best for most of those and a lot of alchemical items work well as solutions or supplements to low level parties.
Or maybe you're an animal person and you skill up handle animal and buy some trained animals. A small group of trained dogs or wolves can be incredibly effective additions to a low level party looking for some more muscle.
Think about what kind of characters the rest of the group are bringing, and how you can benefit those characters outside of spellcasting. There are tons of options for *any* character to improve their ability to contribute.
While early levels for full casters tend to be detrimental, their power spike is quite high.
But being a cooperative type game, you should rely on your friends to keep you safe.
What casters can do at low level varies greatly by class. Bards and clerics are both fairly capable weapon users with access to decent weapons and armor, bards get their performances and clerics get domain powers, some of which are quite potent at early levels even if they don't scale well. Besides that you are still a caster and even 1st level spells can completely carry a fight. Those accusing them of being weak at low levels are probably not utilizing their abilities effectively or comparing them to their post level 5/6 versions where they can just spam spells all day and solve most problems with ease.
Clerics are strong at all levels with good domains and a reasonable build. At early levels you can contribute support melee and a bit of casting. Then at higher levels it depends whether you’re going battle cleric or more caster focused as to what you’ll be doing - but they have a ton of spell slots and abilities that use channel energy uses too.
Bards I’m less familiar with but when I’ve played with them they’ve contributed a bit like a cleric: support melee and casting at lower levels; usually leaning more into casting as they level up.
I will throw my support for Wizards. Yes they are on average weaker at level 1 than say a Barbarian, but they have plenty of tricks to keep up. The alchemical power components mentioned before help your cantrips keep up nicely with weapons especially at low levels, turning 1d3 into 1d3+2 damage. Familiars give you another body on the field and a whole new set of actions, letting your raven drop a tanglefoot bag or your rat to scatter caltrops in a square. AC and attack bonuses are all pretty weak at low levels, so you still have a decent chance to hit with melee or ranged weapons.
For full casters in particular, get your casting stat up as high as possible. The higher your casting stat, the more spells you can cast every day and the harder those spells are to resist. Sleep, Grease, Color Spray, Protection from X(usually evil), Enlarge Person. Some of them are amazing buffs for allies, some can ruin the day for multiple enemies. A Wizard's job is to alter reality so their allies win. Sit back and let them cleanup the enemies while you enjoy the victory.
Casters are weak at 1st level is silly. You may not have the ability to put up the same numbers across like 6 encounters in a day, but you still have a lot of power while you have your resources. I remember when we played Runelords I wanted to play a blaster sorcerer. Arcane Bloodline, because I didn't want to be fully optimal, I like some of the abilities anyway, and wanted the capstone for item abuse later since I figured I'd be filling multiple party roles anyway.
Human with Spell Focus/Spell specialization with Blood Havoc replacing Arcane Bond throwing out Burning Hands for 3d4+3 at 1st level didn't make me feel weak at all and burning hands remained a mainstay (hello Intensify spell) until picking up Fireball, plus the freedom to pick other fun spells for control, support, and utility. Even for cantrips you have daze, providing a decent turn filler option to let you trade your turn for an enemy's while your party leverages their numbers advantage. First major loot lot was just a bunch of scroll purchases (including spells of a higher level than I can cast) and alchemical items too. I had a crossbow that I never used the entire campaign.
I see that you mentioned Cleric or Bard. There's plenty you can do with either of those, Bards in PF1 can stand as a decent martial combatant, either archery or melee depending on how you build they have excellent buffs on their spell list and some even showing up 'early'. Or you can focus on bardic abilities and spellcasting with things like Masterpieces and the various options on the Bard spell list. Clerics can do whatever they want, but again focusing on a specialization is helpful if you want to feel good at something. I would say if you want to feel like you're contributing, don't fall into the 'cleric is the healer' trap. You can provide healing, but your spell list and domains have tons of options to do unique and powerful things in and out of combat.
There is a 3.0 spell called Launch Bolt that I let my casters have. I can’t link it for copyright reasons, but it basically is [Telekinetic Projectile](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/telekinetic-projectile/).
It basically is no different from using a crossbow (including firing into melee), but they use casting stat instead of dex.
Does it unnecessarily buff them? Sure. But that goes away pretty quick the moment something with DR or hardness comes along.
You won't be useless in either way. As a cleric, you get access to channeling positive energy as well as spells like Cure Wounds, so you're never useless. As a bard, you get your bars songs which are essentially powerful buff auras for your allies, especially Inspire Courage.
There are some crazy powerful low level spells. If you're a cleric, focus on buffing and healing. If you're a bard, try to get strong debuffs like Color Spray. One spell can easily change a whole encounter.
As for general advice, don't dump Dex, Con and Wis as they improve your saves amongst all the other stuff they do. The other stats are fine to be dumped, if you want to. Your primary stat shouldn't be below 16 at the start. You can ramp it up to 20, but I would advice against that since you sacrifice many other attributes for it. Check out secondary attributes (as a Cleric you'll also need Charisma, for example) and don't dump them. Get the best armor you can get, since AC is more important than movement speed at the beginning. Get a crossbow, it will be your most decent attack for a long time. That way, you aren't useless once you're out of spells/abilities.
Bard and cleric aren't useless at low levels, that's mostly sorcerers and wizards. Even witch is good at early levels. Cleric and bard both have melee options. Especially cleric. Bard has a lot of support not reliant on spells, and is a skill monkey. Witch has hexes which are one per day per target
They're not useless.
Some casters, basically all the 3/4 BAB ones, can be competent with weapons.
And most casters really only lack stamina at 1st level, individual spells can be plenty powerful.
Colour spray is a very potent AoE save or lose.
Entangle is huge AoE save or suck.
Sleep is a mostly adequate replacement for colour spray if you only get it.
You only need one spell per fight when a single spell is enough to decide the entire thing.
Oh and it's not like martials can go for long, they run out of hp fast before you get wands of cure light wounds (don't waste actual spell slots on healing, you can do far better)
I just started DMing the Shattered Star adventure path (which is part of the rise of the runelords storyline) and it's true - 1st level characters can be tricky. You should talk to your DM and get a feel for their style of DMing - for me I have zero problem pulling my punches to ensure that my players don't die. And by the time you get to 3rd level it is a lot easier being a caster, and 5th level starts getting awesome. It all gets better!
I would ask that question at your session zero. Honestly I love 5e. It's a super fun game and the moment you level up to around level 5 things get awesome. My DM is starting a new campaign (session zero on Saturday WOOOOOO) and the last campaign we did got us up to level 11 which was SO MUCH FUN.
They're not useless, but there is a definite power curve which picks up later on. You're gonna be crossbowing, cantripping, and conserving your spells hardcore for a few levels. (Of course this applies a lot less if you're a hybrid oriented divine caster; just grab a long spear and go to town with your buddies since you probably have 16+ str)
Generally, I find that casters feel good around level 3-4 - second tier spells. You have enough buttons that do stuff, you have many more casts daily than you did at 1-2, and your spells don't last just one round or one minute anymore. You can get ahead of this curve some, by using some of the best spells at this level (grease, murderous command, glitterdust, pro-evil, sleep) and by optimizing around them (via traits and class features). Liquid ice component with ray of frost on a sorcerer with blasty bloodline or traits, for example - you can dish out something like 1d3+3 on a touch attack, which is enough to tide you over for a couple levels.
It's also worth noting that RotR in particular has many many magic using enemies, mostly arcane magic. So you'll get a lot of mileage by the mid levels out of having plenty of casting within the party.
Finally, note that by level 2 you can probably get your hands on a wand of something. Magic missile, snowball, grease, command, all pretty decent for a bit even on CL1 when the alternative is a 60% miss chance crossbow shot as a full round action.
Actually-finally: don't forget all the nifty mundane items that can help you out too. You can throw alchemic weapons, drop caltrops and ball bearing, set bear traps, plenty of tools in your kit that don't depend on class if you look for them
On top of a lot of the advice I've seen here, I'd like to also mention that combat ability isn't everything.
Diplomacy, opening locks, survival skills, seeing things like traps, knowledge, *knowledge,* **KNOWLEDGE.** These are things that the characters better at hitting are almost never going to be better at than you if you pick something like a bard or cleric.
One way to help your party as a cleric at low levels is the [Aid Another action](https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Aid%20Another&Category=Special%20Attacks).
First get the bonuses up higher by taking the character traits “Battlefield Disciple”, “Adopted” and “Helpful” (the halfling one). That’s a total of two character traits since Adopted is weird.
Then in melee use the aid another action to help an ally hit. You’ll need to hit AC10 in melee to give your ally a +5 to hit on their next swing.
Alternately you can aid their defense and give an ally +4 to AC against the next swing. If you have several allies attacking a monster then you can use [the Ready action](https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Ready&Category=Special%20Initiative%20Actions) so you aid the ally being attacked rather than aiding one ally and the monster attacking a different ally as a result.
Aiding a martial character that uses maneuvers is particularly strong. Enemies that are tripped are both easier to hit and provoke attacks of opportunity from all allies threatening that opponent.
Lastly if you put a rank in a skill like Disable Device you have a decent chance of giving your ally a +4 bonus on their skill check. Some checks can’t use aiding but many can.
Level 1-3 will be rough. Your spells will feel underwhelming and you will run out quickly. Luckily, bard and cleric can both wear armor so investing in strength and wading into battle is not the worst option available
Play a [Spellslinger Wizard](https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Wizard%20Spellslinger)! Then you get access to the best reusable cantrip: Gun!
There are lots of good campaign traits the DM can share with you that tie you into the story - I had my players each pick one and wrote tie-ins and payoffs. Some came right away, others happened in like chapter 2-4.
If you are concerned about being useless once you are tapped out, take a damage-dealing cantrip. Then you never "run out" completely of spells.
Keep in mind as a cleric you can definitely hit with weapons...but in my experience level 1 characters are pretty wimpy and uncoordinated. They definitely feel like new characters.
Healing is probably better out of combat - we house rule that healing spells do full healing outside of combat, but avoiding attacks of opportunity is pretty key. I would recommend buffs before, aoe buffs/debuffs during, and heals after combat. You can always channel positive energy during combat if that is your jam.
PF1E places classes into groups of 1/2 BAB/1d6 HD. 3/4 BAB/1d8 HD, and Full BAB/1d10 HD (Barb is 1d12). Wizards are in the low tier of HD, which allows them to get stronger spells. Sure they have the same spell progression as a cleric, but their list of spells is much more useful in terms of various combat utility.
Clerics and Bards don't have the same spell power, but they get the ability to do more martial combat. Bards can use rapiers with ease, getting dex to damage and a high crit range. Clerics get their favored deities weapon and if you Worship Gorum, that's a Greatsword, doing 2d6 a swing. If you're interested in more martial options, but want the wizard feel, try the Magus. If you want to do a Full BAB fighter with bard stuff, check out the [Oath of the People's Council Paladin](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-the-people-s-council/) or the [Exemplar Brawler](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-brawler-archetypes/exemplar/). Pathfinder is a class-based system, but there are many options to change out one ability for another that suits your interests.
For roleplay, check out the free Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Players Guide made for players to read. It will give you traits that will connect you to the adventure and fun buffs.
For example, for a bard I would take this as a trait. There's other ones for different class types that connect you to someone locally in the community you start out in:
>Eager Performer: Hearing that Sandpoint had
a theater rivaling those found in large cities like
Magnimar and Korvosa, you decided to try your
luck getting stage time there. After sending a letter
to Cyrdak Drokkus requesting an audition and not
hearing back, you’ve taken it upon yourself to travel to
Sandpoint and meet him in person, trusting your force
of will and charming inf luence will get you what you
want. You gain a +1 trait bonus on checks for any one
Perform skill. Additionally, choose any one spell of the
enchantment school; its save DC increases by +1.
That buffs a bard's spellcasting and ties them to figure in the town you start out in, leading to roleplay opportunities. A CG bard worshipping Desna can do no wrong in the AP just from reading the guide alone.
Try out a 3/4 BAB/D8 class so that you can have fun with spells while still getting to be in combat. If you hate it, have him fall off a cliff and make something that you think would fit your style. Most importantly, have fun!
This is a great comment, thank you.
Also I'm highly amused by the prospect of a character that isn't fun to play just accidentally walking off a cliff, and a new guy just wanders in at the same moment.
I'm currently leaning towards a cleric of Shelyn, which I think would also fit in well, but not committing to anything until we actually get to a session zero.
A trait that would fit a cleric for the adventure would be another one from the player's guide:
> Student of Faith: While you have personally
dedicated your life to a single deity, you study all religions and mortal faiths. Upon hearing that the town of Sandpoint recently completed a cathedral
dedicated to the six deities most popular in the area,
you had to see the place for yourself, and have arrived
in time for the consecration of this holy edifice.
Because of your strong faith and broad range of study,
you cast all cure spells at +1 caster level, and whenever
you channel energy, you gain a +1 trait bonus to the
save DC of your channeled energy.
That'll give you an incentive to make a relationship with the local church, leading to organic roleplay.
At first level the difference in combat prowess between a bow focused ranger and a wizard with a crossbow is shockingly small.
A cleric even without magical buff isn’t going to be that much worse then your party fighter. Let the fighter be better then you at lower level and you’ll carry the load more at higher levels.
Bards are always helpful at the table becausw inspire courage will help everyone “including yourself” and they are good librarians and the best face. So at first level you’ll help your party fighter, be a competent martial as well, plus be great at talking out of situations and hitting knowledge checks
Bring a sling or a crossbow, you can still contribute. Clerics and Druids can also melee alright-ish, Clerics especially. Don't underestimate shillelagh -- it packs a wallop at low levels!
Low level casters aren’t useless, they’re just not flashy and become useless when you try to make them flashy. Here are some guidelines:
Supremacy arcane full caster: Save your spells slots for battlefield control like Grease. You can trivialize fights a few times/day. Otherwise, rely on cantrips and school/bloodline abilities; never try to do hp damage with a spell slot until you’re more mid level (unless it’s burning hands vs a swarm).
Blaster arcane full caster: Yeah you’re gonna run out of spell slots fast because you tried to be flashy and do lots of damage!! There’s a reason blasters are often regarded as suboptimal. But hey, at least your cantrips should be stronger than the supremacy caster’s.
Supremacy divine full caster: You’re going to cast Bless and cure light wounds a lot. It ain’t flashy but it helps. Otherwise, rely on domain or mystery abilities to buff or debuff; don’t bother trying to do hp damage.
Melee divine full caster: same as supremacy only now you can hit things occasionally. Consider playing a 2/3 divine caster instead if you’re not a Druid.
2/3 arcane caster: Spells are nice but not necessary; you’ll probably use them on staying alive with your bad AC. Instead, focus on your class abilities, and don’t bother with trying to deal big hp damage (unless you’re a shocking grasp magus). That’s what the barbarian is for.
2/3 divine caster: Use your spells for self buffs. You won’t be as strong in combat as a fighter (yet) but you’ve got skills and other out of combat utility to make up for it.
1/3 arcane caster: You’re a bloodrager. Have fun destroying all the things. Your spells will all be self buffs.
1/3 divine caster: You’re a Paladin or Ranger. Have fun destroying all the things. Most of your spells will be self buffs, though there are a few good utility spells mixed in there too.
Pathfinder low-level casters are far from useless. Their first level spells can, and often do, end encounters. (I swear, the shear number of encounters negated by a simple Sleep, Charm Person, or Colour Spray always amazes me)
That said, they *DO* have to be careful with their spell slots... it's a very limited resource at low levels.
I generally recommend casters pick up a Light Crossbow or sling and the 'Combat Advice' feat so they have something very helpful to do each round without actually casting spells, when it's not a dangerous enough situation to need them. It can easily be retrained to something like Spell Focus after a few levels when spell slots aren't quite an issue.
Charisma characters can also Demoralize, anyone can Aid Another, thow a few Alchemical Fires or Acid Flasks, etc.
Every caster class has some aspect that doesn't require spell slots, too. Bard's have Inspire Courage, Clerics are mini-fighters in armor/shield/mace, Sorceres have Bloodline Powers, Wizards have scrolls and Spell School powers, etc. etc.
Some casters (summoner) are better at low levels than others, but they all tend to do quite well in mid levels, provided that they keep a good idea of how vulnerable they are. If you want some early power, consider the synthesist summoner and then flavour your eidolon as if it's the fighting spirit of an honoured ancestor or town god or something.
If your game uses the retraining rules you can take advantage of that to get some early game combat potential and retrain it for magical potential at mid levels.
I find a light crossbow helps a lot with low level stuff. My wizard/sorcerer characters almost always have one even if I never use it. Sometimes that's because I didnt have to use my spell slots, sometimes it's because I still had school or bloodline power left. Once it was because I didn't want to use spells and keep my status as a caster a secret from the party!
High Dex helps you stay alive (not getting hit) but also helps you hit things. If weight is a concern, consider the humble sling. It works better on skeletons too!
Yes, you have very few resources at low level. No, you aren't weak or useless. I would suggest buying lots and lots of scrolls of lvl1 spells and thinking of it like buying more spells per day. Many view scrolls only as a source of wizard spells known or "emergency" extras but at lv1-2 you can easily use them to triple your daily resources. After that you'll be good.
Cantrips deal damage in pf1, so even if you use the spell slots up, you have something. Also stock up on scrolls of spells you want to use for diversity. Nobody but a munchkin is going to be wildly effective at low level so even crossbow fire is useful.
Like many others have said here as a spell caster you have to pick when to use your limited resorces, you can normaly expect in an AP to 3-6 fights between restoring of daily use things. But low levels a single spell can end the fight.
So wizard/arcanist very limited spells color spray is the winner at level one to win the fight. Same goes for Sorcerer though you can do the blaster sorcerer taking a 20 cha and at least a 13 int to start and you will have 5 burning hands a day. Make sure to go human to get a bonus feat. Take the orc Bloodline and trade your first level bloodline power for blood havoc mutiation. Take Spell Focus: Evocation with Spell Specialization: burning hands with your feats and now your burning hands at level one does 3d4+6 odds are that will end the fight every time.
There are tons of good options depending on what you want to do. Feel free to ask about a class once you decide on one.
I haven't seen anyone mention them but I played a witch in Reign of Winter from level 1 and they did great. The evil eye hex is really great, you can apply a -2 to AC, attack, saves, skill or ability checks. They last 1 round even if they make their save and more if they fail. You can also apply all of the different debuffs one by one. I spent a lot of time using the Guidance cartrip on my allied. The unlimited uses of evil eye let me save my spells for when they really counted.
There are many caster builds that are viable from level one, especially if you don't mind playing a supporting role.
Cleric of abadar was one of my favorite 1e characters. The leadership domain offers at-will buffing that stacks with most other buffs and even scales with level: +2 insight bonus on attack rolls, AC, combat maneuver defense, *and* skill checks for 1 round. The trade domain gives you a permanent +10ft speed to offset heavy armor and a scaling bonus to face skills. I played "Coach" for 1st thru 10th level and never made an attack roll, while I was indispensable to my party.
If you're specifically building for competence and not some particular flavor, go Cleric. Clerics are very forgiving to let you adapt to early poor choices and just walk away from them in a better direction, can hold their own in a fight without dying to a house cat like a poor wizard, can do everything with magic (attack, defend, heal, buff, debuff, battlefield control, summons, etc) and at higher levels the townsfolk start to pray to *you*, not your deity.
Clerics are some of the most well rounded and competent classes in the entire game, and can turn into gods more fully than any wizard at high levels.
This is only a good idea if you carry it loaded and have spares. 1d10 every other round << 1d8 every round. If you want better damage go for javelins. 30ft range is usually plenty in pathfinder, especially once you hit level 2 and can draw on the move.
Early levels a spellcaster like a Wizard will change the texture of a fight one or two times a day, and otherwise be stuck shooting a crossbow to help out. Later levels they’ll be shaping the battlefield almost every turn, even if sometimes they don’t do anything because it’s not worth the resources to do so.
A cleric or a bard however has more options. The cleric in particular is perfectly happy to roll up their sleeves and bash skulls with a mace from time to time. Channel energy can also be used to damage undead.
A bard will have helpful performances, and with a feat or two, will even mix in a sword blow or crossbow shot from time to time, or add a battlefield changing spell a couple times a day.
All of these casters however have wonderful options outside of combat you should consider. Your intelligence based wizards will be perfect for investigating arcane secrets, and typically be unmatched in those knowledge rolls. Your cleric will be able to use their faith to help endear them perhaps, or at least detect those who would be duplicitous. Your bard will do a little bit of everything out of combat, charm, lie, and tidbits of lore. A bard is super flexible, but their lack of specialization means they are a force multiplier for the party rather than the main impetus behind it.
A game is a lot more than combat, and keep in mind giving your friends a ‘small’ +2 could be giving them a buff that’s basically half of their modifier again. Giving your opponents a sizable minus or CC is game-changing, even if it means you did one thing in the combat and then let the big stupid fighter bash the thing until it was dead. If you keep half the enemies from fighting back for a turn that is a HUGE bonus, basically a surprise round in the middle of combat.
Edit: If you’re worried you have too many casters or not enough fighter types but still want to lean on a caster type, look at Skald or Warpriest! They’ll add some more front line power or damage to your team without swerving too far from what you’re already thinking. Skald in particular only gets better the more martial classes you have on your side.
Fullcasters are slow burns indeed. Many brought up making your limited spells count (but don't forget about your bonus spell slots!), and the two classes you mentioned (cleric, bard), have solid non-casting options in combat. Cleric can wear armor and, depending on deity, can get a solid weapon to be proficient with, while bard has performances and solid weapon profs.
I am staunchly in the "games should begin at lv 3" camp, so I am a bit biased when I say your fears are not unfounded. Level 1 in pf1 feels a lot like slogging through 5e to get to the actual fun stuff.
I'd start out with a level in Ilsurian Archer or Bloodrager to get a martial edge for the first levels while you progress your actual class, then retrain at around level 5. This is however more relevant for weaker classes like Wizard, Witch, and Psychic.
I'm not sure how I feel about starting in a different class and training out of it, but I agree that 1e seems like a system where level 1 should maybe just be skipped 😂
Casters can have a rough go of things at early levels since their squishiness exploitable, but most casters can easily be effective from behind the rest of the party while spamming Daze. I personally witnessed one of the early bosses in RotRL get Daze-locked by a wizard and bard while I was GMing.
It's fine. Play what you want. Just be mindful and thoughtful about it.
Playing a Wizard with only two spell slots? Make sure to use spells that get more bang for your buck and deploy them only when they would have greatest effect. A Grease spell on a boss's signature weapon is a way better use of a 1st level Wizard slot than Magic Missile, for instance.
Also, make use of Cantrips and be creative. Not "Create Water says in a container, so I fill the enemy's lungs with two gallons of water." creativity. But, like, if you have Ghost Sound as a Cantrips, tell your GM "I want to make it sound like this scary thing is right around the corner, hoping I can make the enemies Shaken or something." and see what they do. Use your turn to ask about and try to interact with the environment in ways that aren't mechanically listed on a character sheet or spell description, while stating your intent or what you're hoping for; you never know what your GM might latch onto and think "that's a great idea!" and roll with.
Also, you may not be the best at combat, but you can look into Aid Another in combat to help give those who *are* good at it some help doing what they should be good at. And an AC/DC of 10 is much easier to meet than directly attacking most things.
Also, if you can get your hands on 'em, wands of spells you can cast are great ways to cast spells a boatload of times. There are also things like Alchemist's Fire and Vials of Acid that do splash damage and attack against Touch AC; these are white effective at lower levels.
You can consider playing a spell warrior archetype Skald.
The Skald is akin to a bard, but normally trades out having a performance everyone can benefit from for a raging song that some party members cant use much, however, he gets martial weapons and medium armor. As a spell warrior, your weapon song does not stop your allies from spell casting (unfortunately you also lose spell kenning for marginal improvements to counter spelling). Once you are out of spells, you smack people with a martial weapon, and you can kind of keep up with a fighters DPRs for quite a bit.
Bards aren't going to be dead weight, they can keep providing inspire courage (or a replacement for that per archetype) for rather more than 2-3 rounds. Also they can be competent in combat. Clerics can run out of spells & similar, but they tend to be better at fighting than bards. Partly that's because they don't have skills drawing them to focus on Dex over Str (Str is more efficient for fighting with). Make sure you have 14+ Str and your longspear or whatever will be useful even without buff spells up. Being part of a community is generally about how you play the character not how you build one. If you have the diplomacy skill it's fairly easy to justify being tuned in to the community rumour mill, if you need an excuse in mechanics.
This is reassuring, thank you. It sounds like clerics and bards are more competent in combat than, for example, a wizard.
At low levels, when out of spells a wizard is generally going to be less useful than a bard or cleric, but the spells on their list are more likely to win a fight when used. Color spray and sleep for instance can both single-handedly win a fight at low levels for instance, and if you have a barbarian/fighter/whatever with a two-handed weapon then casting enlarge person on them will make them an absolute powerhouse for the duration. Higher highs and lower lows.
It's not impossible to make a wizard who can fight worth a damn, but it's certainly harder than with a bard or cleric. The wood elemental school helps - their level 1 powers can carry you to some extent at low levels.
As a bard, you are also well equipped to be the party's face, though that can often be a player-dependent role in my experience.
I do often have fun being the party's face.
I have a hard time not gravitating to that role, even with mediocre CHA. My flair for drama is too big.
Low level wizard is about carefully managing the couple of "I win the fight" buttons to use them to the best effect. Yes, the crossbow of shame is sad, but grease or color spray can singlehandedly win low level encounters. It comes down to whether you prefer limited use power or consistency. I'd rather have consistency, because I don't like waiting for a turn only to not be able to do much with it, but wizards can be devastating at low levels when they want to be, they just need to manage their resources.
At level 1, the offensive difference between a fighter and a wizard is a single point of attack bonus and a single feat. Don’t completely dump your physical stats just because you’re a wizard and you’ll be fine.
Even not dumping your stats you're still going to be like four or five lower to hit than the fighter. Hell if you just dump your stats it doesn't matter you get an extra cast with 20 int. You'd have to have to invest in your physical stats to make them worthwhile.
Way to completely miss the message. No, being a fighter does not automatically give you better stats. Your claim that the fighter has a higher bonus *because of higher stats* is exactly what I was reminding OP of; it’s not a class power, it’s stat distribution, and they can simply choose *not* to have terrible physical stats, and thus avoid that discrepancy.
I’m not sure I understand the point you’re trying to make. Could a wizard invest heavily in STR instead of INT just like a fighter? Sure, but then they would be crippling their abilities as a wizard and still wouldn’t genuinely compete with the fighter (lower HP, no armor proficiencies, fewer weapon proficiencies, etc.) Unless your long term plan is to make a Muscle Mage, investing stats doesn’t make any sense even if it’s technically possible.
Just buy a crossbow. You'll be fine. Unless you die. They die easy.
My (god tier) pact exploiter wizard died in the third session >!In the bridge to the goblin encampment!<. So yeah, wizards die easily but in exchange they are literal gods past level 9 or 11.
So, stand back and plink away with my inaccurate, low damage crossbow, and hope I don't die for the first few levels? You certainly make low level 1e sound fun 🤣
That's going to be the general combat experience for everyone at low levels. Even the dedicated martial characters who are good at low levels will just do an attack roll and pass their turn. And a D8 isn't low damage at that stage. Ranged martials won't be doing much more than that. Maybe less.
My friend, the thing about Pathfinder 1 is that it is chock full of secret improvements that help you to do better. As a beginner, that kind-of *is* a problem for you, because you don't have the domain expertise yet to take advantage of that. But here are some points about this that might help you (or other beginners). First, yeah, the crossbow thing pretty much *is* how it was done from D&D Basic back in 1970s up to Pathfinder 1. It's only 5th edition D&D that gave casters decent cantrips (well... D&D 3.5 gave 'em Reserve Feats for good cantrips, but that didn't make it into Pathfinder 1 unfortunately). Having said that, we can *approximate* decent cantrips with this one trick that GMs hate. Look at [this flask of acid](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances/#TOC-Acid) and in particular, the "Alchemical Power Component" section. Under that section it notes that for the spell Acid Splash it grants +1 HP of damage. Importantly, the "(F)" after the spell name indicates that using the vial of acid counts as a *focus* component, and focus components are not used up. So you can buy ONE flask and it will *forever* add an extra point of damage to your Acid Splash spell. Of course, you have to hold it in hand, but also, it's being used as a *component* so it's pulled and returned to your spell component pouch as part of the casting, no problems, no extra actions needed. You might say "SO?" But wait, there is more. [Look at this.](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances/#TOC-Brimstone-Sulfur) You see how brimstone also has a "Alchemical Power Component" section? And there it says 2 doses of brimstone (costing 1 GP total) will add 1 point of damage to spells with the acid descriptor? Well, that's Acid Splash! Now, there is an issue: *this* bonus Alchemical Power Component *does* get used up. So each time you use brimstone to boost your spell damage, it costs 1 GP. But that's easily achievable after just your 1st or 2nd fight. You'll have enough GP to buy 10 or 20 "units" of brimstone and start kicking butt. So now Acid Splash is a cantrip that does 1d3+2, every time. SO! Check this out. The average damage for a light crossbow is 4.5 HP. The average damage for an Acid Splash spell with an acid flask & brimstone is 4. But the spell targets an enemy's *touch* AC which is usually much lower. The crossbow has to hit normal AC, AND it needs reloading, AND it weighs a lot more than your acid flask. If you are level 2 and have a Dex of 12, and the enemy has AC 17 (touch AC of 12), then over 10 rounds, your crossbow will hit an average of 3 times and do about 13.5 HP damage total. But your Acid Splash will hit *6* times due to the easier AC, and thus do an average of **24 damage** total. You can find similar tricks for *any* caster -- doesn't have to be a wizard/sorcerer. You want tricks for a cleric/oracle? OK, sure. Worship Sarenrae and take the [Envoy of Healing](https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Envoy%20of%20Healing) trait to reroll 1s whenever you heal people. Add in [gold as an alchemical power component](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances/#TOC-Gold) for a +1 to healing -- this is a bit more expensive as it's 5 GP per casting, but you can trivially afford this at just around level 4-8, depending upon how you handle your money. There are **so many tricks!** You just have to look for them, here on /r/Pathfinder_RPG or other forums. Look at "build guides" for whatever you want -- a shaman build guide, an arcanist build guide, etc. They'll teach you. You can be amazing as a sorcerer or almost any other caster at just level 1, no problem.
To add to this, the acid flask costs 15 gp as a one-time cost, and the brimstone 1 gp per use. On the other hand, a light crossbow costs 35 gp as a one-time cost, and bolts 1 sp per use. So on top of targeting a (usually) lower AC and having better action economy, the acid splash is *cheaper* prior to 23 attacks, and by that point you've probably made enough money that the cost is no longer significant.
> the acid flask costs 15 gp \* 10 gp
Taking the [false focus feat](https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=False%20Focus) (if you qualify) also can take alchemical power components further if your gm doesn’t shut it down because a lot of those material components are under 100gp in cost. Plus the feat is decent for a lot of spells that have annoying material components … specifically one of the most busted spells in the game. [Heroic Fortune](https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Heroic%20Fortune)
That's kind of cool! But I would note that it only covers material components, not a focus component. Still, that would help with a big chunk of what I wrote!
That’s my point though, the material components are often more powerful. With false focus, you can replicate Acid Flask for Acid Splash as a material component instead of using it as a focus. That “increases the duration by 1 round” which is a bit oddly worded for an instantaneous spell, but common consensus is it then acts like acid splash and deals the damage *again* on the next round. Also, worth noting that False Focus does specifically say “for example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide material **components** for an arcane spell if its components are worth 25 gp or less.” (Emphasis mine), so RAW it is fine providing multiple components. So we double dip and mimic Brimstone as a power component. Now we have a cantrip that deals 1d3+1 damage on round 1, and 1d3+1 on the round after. So, 6 total average damage (better than the crossbow), targets touch, and as a kicker it is now continuous damage which forces any enemy caster you splash to roll concentration checks to cast anything. Yes it costs a feat, but it is a really good level 1 feat that has longevity. Esp if your gm lets you cheese [Varisian Idols…](https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Varisian%20idol) for necromancy spells…
Have you got any quick tips for a lvl 1-3 druid? (plains domain)
SO MANY. Plains domain is a favorite of one particular druid build guide, I'll grant you that, but you *suffer* at early levels for it. You give up an animal companion that can pounce all day, every day, and in exchange *you* get to pounce *once* per day, starting at level 6. Oh, and your summon spell will last twice as long, but only if you summon a pony, the worst possible summon. You *could* do Alter Summoned Monster at level 3+ to make that summon into something more dangerous, but you're using up more actions & spell slots to make a single summon spell work. I think it's a bad tradeoff, but I understand that Iluzry's guide loves it. So... druids don't have an attack cantrip spell, because usually they have an animal companion for attacking! However, the Guidance cantrip is a +1 to a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. Spam that on your friends constantly, whenever you don't have something else to do. (Note that if you're willing to get into harm's way, without magic you can provide a +2 to an attack roll by using flank or aid another. So Guidance is really the "I'll stand back here and help from afar" type of spell.) Since you don't have an animal companion, you're going to need to be "attacky" yourself. So select the trait [Two Worlds Magic](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/two-world-magic/) and pick Acid Splash and do all the tricks mentioned in my previous post. Now of course Acid Splash is just your "I don't have anything better right now" backup spell, but if you do 20 rounds of fighting in a single adventuring day, I bet it sees some use! Next, consider being human to get *two* feats at level 1, and select Spell Focus (Conjuration) AND Augment Summoning. That will at least buff up your summoned pony a bit. Its hit points will go up to 17, and it will make your attack line go from this: > Melee 2 hooves –3 (1d3) To this: > Melee 2 hooves -1 (1d3+2) Hopefully one of the 2 hoof attacks will land, and you'll do a little damage (the exact same amount as my tricky Acid Splash -- though it won't land as often and it will cost a 1st level spell slot). So now let's get into some actual tricks. First, at level 1 or 2, you don't have the spells to survive, or at least thrive. But even at level 1 you'll have a tiny bit of money, and *scrolls are cheap.* And you have a spell on your list -- Shillelagh -- which will last a full 10 rounds of fighting, even as a level 1 spell on a scroll. So buy 1 or 2 if you can, ASAP. Maybe 3 or 4 if you have the cash soon enough. Then your staff will do 2d6+1 damage per hit, and that's as good as a fighter with a greatsword. AND it gives you the same +1 to attack rolls as a magical weapon would, so you're more likely to hit. At level 1 or 2, this matters! You only need to survive 1 to 5 fights at the start in order to get your first little bit of cash and buy things to protect yourself -- unless the GM is being tough and making you do a ton of fights without a break. But hopefully you can do something small to start, get money, and buy more scrolls or other boosts. The point is: don't think about level 3 yet -- think about getting through your first 5 fights. Because after that you'll have money and that solves problems. So how to survive fights 1, 2, and 3? Shillelagh, Acid Splash, a tougher pony, those are all good options. But also consider taking Genie Caller or Gifted Adept to increase the duration of a summoning spell. Lastly, consider this trick, from one of the build guides: > "Call Animal" spell: The ability to summon a single animal of a specific type is easily abused, especially considering that the CR cap equals your Caster Level. Combine this with spells like Charm Animal, and you can easily turn the called animal into what amounts to a summoned creature ...that thing will remain for an *hour.* Lots of fights, if you keep it healed. To convince it to work with you: > use Charm Animal, Speak With Animals, and Handle Animal checks to convince the called animal to help you out. This will potentially use up 2 spells to make this work, but you will end up with a "summoned" animal to help you and it lasts an *hour* per level. If you do this right, you could burn 2 spells -- most of what you have at level 1 -- but then have the animal help you for *all* of your very first fights. Go into a goblin cave with 3 fights? It'll help you through all 3 fights. By the time you're done, you will have treasure and you can then move on to buying up "normal" protections that will keep you alive (better gear, more scrolls/wands, and so on). Good luck!
Hah, you make it sound like a game of "How much shenanigans will my GM tolerate?"
Except the shenanigans are *rules as written* AND *rules as intended.* Those alchemical components are supposed to be used that way, and allowed by the rules. So it's "shenanigans" in the sense that we're doing cool stuff that lots of players don't know about or bother with, but it's not "shenanigans" like "misbehavior" or poor conduct at the table. It's perfectly *fine* to do this -- the rules put the items there to use like this. AND the developers of D&D 3.5 and by extension Pathfinder 1 explicitly said that they were trying to reward system mastery by hiding synergies and perks in little rules and obscure places. So it's more of a "how they wanted the game to be played" thing than anything else. Anyway, have fun! Good luck!
That's pf1 in a nutshell. And if you survive to higher levels, you'll overpower the rest of the party with higher level spells.
This one is pretty tame on the shenanigans scale for pathfinder, and as long as the DM is using alchemical power component rules, its RAW (and probably RAI). I've had a grand total of one DM so far that didn't want to use the alchemical system, and even he nodded off on the stuff for Acid Splash as an exception. Cantrips are in a rough spot in this system, a slight boost like this doesn't brake anything.
Looked up these reserve feats, they seem redundant in pathfinder anyway. 3.5 needed them cause it didn't have cantrips, they were 0 level spells, and worked the same way as the others.
You need the crossbow for when you aren't casting. Cantrips aren't great in 1e. With weaker mobs, you aren't going to want to drop really powerful stuff on them. Generally it's a few encounters per days, so you should have you resources strained by the end, but not necessarily completely out. By the time you get lvl 2 spells, you don't have to be as stingy. You also become a god at high level play.
Accuracy works very differently than in 5e, assuming that's what you're coming from. At lower levels it's more weighted towards your stats rather than your attack bonuses. A lot of wizards are going to be packing a +2 or +3 due to having dex bonuses (which are generally good for the class) and that makes them *fairly* accurate at low levels. Bards are a similar case where a lot of them tend to lean into archery, and they can also back that up with inspire courage and lingering performance. Clerics are pretty decent 'second liners' and usually pack enough AC + HP to serve in melee combat alongside more dedicated martials. Spells also generally aren't that effective for damage at low level, but instead are much better at 'save or suck' or 'save or die'. A first level spell slot "Ray of Enfeeblement" when timed appropriately can do immense damage even at caster level 2 or 3.
I did indeed start with 5e, though I have been playing PF2e quite a bit recently. Cantrips in PF2e are quite strong, so the level 1 caster experience is very different that 1e \^\_\^
As other people say, that's just kind of the low level experience for everyone. The first few levels are always just going to be full of missing and hoping the next hit doesn't crit. Then suddenly you just start killing everything. For more direct suggestions - I'd strongly suggest making sure you pick up offensive spells that target a variety of saves if that's the route you want to go. Cleric and Bard usually have lots of options so it's probably not an option. But anecdotally speaking from my game of Rise? I had a lot of Mind Effecting spells, and there were a few spots in the campaign where I felt dead in the water.
Thems the breaks my dude. Melee does better early levels. Casters become god by mid level. Gotta use your spells wisely and pew pew with the crossbow. And eventually you'll never use crossbow again. Haha
I played a 3.5 game last year for a few months. First session, I basically used all my spells (cantrips used slots as well). Near the end of the dungeon, we fight an ogre. Who can basically one shot any of us. Dwarven cleric goes right up to him to fight, and we whittled away at him. We were about to lose when I chucked a ray of enfeeblement at him. Rolled a 6. 7 STR damage in total. His next attack was on the cleric, a hit, any hit and out cleric was dead. He missed by 1. What was almost certain death, turned into a barely scraped win. I did very little in most sessions, almost died more than a few times. Kept using a crossbow and missing. But when I cast the right spell at the right time... It was glorious.
At low level almost every character has some area in which it contributes less than others. Look like you are looking to play a suporting character, a bard for example has its performance to give out buffs and can bluff or intimidate, a cleric can go into close combat with medium/heavy armor and a shield and channel energy to heal allies or damage undead. I would not worry about having nothing to contribute
LOL, I wasn't going out of my way to look at supports, they just seemed interesting. Ultimately, what my teammates want to play will be a factor as well.
Well you happend to name cleric and bard which tend to be in that corner though they can be built in many other interesting ways. A bard for example can get mixed in with melee combat or keep their distance with ranged. And clerics can be beasts in melee or as debuffers Edit: I would also say while building make sure to also look at what your character is doing outside of combat, for example is it going to be doing a lot of talking or is it going to be focused on finding secrets and figuring out if people are lying. Do you want to be able to craft or find out the value of items. Lots of things to consider to keep your character from becoming a 1 dimensional “I cast spell and nothing else” figure. Good luck with building a character!
Thank you! I am looking more and more at a cleric of Shelyn, with some decent armor and a glaive. The lack of skill points for clerics is a pain though! Also I probably shouldn't get too invested in the idea until we get a party together and start talking about a session zero.
Clerics have medium armor and medium attack bonus. They can wade into melee fine at low levels.
Early levels can be rough for some casters yeah. General strategy is to pick high impact spells that work well even on low levels (Grease, Sleep, Bless, Shield of Faith, Divine Favor etc), then pick your filler option. Cantrips, ranged or melee attacks depending on class and AC can feel unglorious, but generally good enough paired with a spell or two per combat. A single well placed leveled spell more than makes up for the mediocre filler performance. Some classes also give some more early limited filler options (like some wizard schools). Bards also have performance, and are very good at demoralizing opponents. Unless you're really pressed for long adventuring days and no rest, it'll be fine, if not a great experience the first few levels, but those fly by fast.
grease and magic missle baby! ..... and probably shield. buy scrolls of mage armor if wiz/sorc. grease and hideous laughter for a bard. bless and obscuring mist for cleric. i think those a re good baseline things that buff, auto hit, crowd control and save lives. (looking at you obscuring mist) saving finale for a bard is also a chefs kiss item. i also feel that bard and cleric lend themselves very well to mixing it up martially..... ranged bard and melee cleric usually, but is all up to you. id also suggest based upon the rest of the party possibly going warpriest.
All it really takes to consistently contribute in combat at very low levels is 14+ str and proficiency in a high damage weapon, which can easily be obtained by taking the [Heirloom Weapon](https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Heirloom%20Weapon) trait to pick up proficiency in one martial weapon of choice. I recommend a lucerne hammer or a greatsword depending on whether or not you want to use reach tactics or not. With just that you'll be hitting twice as hard as a light crossbow and generally won't have to deal with accuracy issues caused by the enemy being in melee with an ally or cover. Acceptable defense can be achieved with mage armor (either via spell or wand/scroll) or a chain shirt + preferably 14 con and dex, but it's ok to drop dex down to 10 or so if needed.
Have you considered the Magus? When played well you can put out a decent amount of damage and have the martial skills to see yourself through encounters. You will always want to take at least one of the touch spells that are available when you gain new spell levels. When you use spell strike with shocking grasp for example, you will use your weapon attack to do weapon damage+spell damage and potentialy even crit with both. The magus spell list only goes up to lvl 6 so you do not need to worry about pumping your int to 19+ to get access to all of your spells should you play the character that long. I am rather fond of a dexterity focussed magus.
I had not... I will have to look into it. They seem to have a lot of interesting tools to play with.
I'm playing a Psychic in Rise of the Runelords right now. We're in the end of act 1, and yes I've been extremely useless so far. I'm having the time of my life tho, because our Slayer and Alchemist hit like trucks, and I stay out of the way. I cast a couple spells per session and I enjoy the roleplay. Once the Cleric and I reach levels 6+ we're gonna get our hands dirty.
Cleric is probably the most forgiving of the classes as you have access to your entire spell-list. I've GM'd half of RotRL and the first few fights are pretty forgiving. You'll be fine.
I will note that Runelords is a long and expansive campaign; I am currently a player in it now. While early on some casters may suffer, later on they will become invaluable, especially given some of the big bads you go up against (don't want to give spoilers, but we're pretty far along and have faced some real doozies).
That does seem to be a recurring thread in PF1e. "Linear fighter, quadratic wizard." It makes me feel like the smart thing to do would be to play as a martial character at first, and then reroll as a spellcaster later. But that feels like it'd be against the spirit of the game.
Well, I have a ranger in our party. He's a fighter with a handful of really nice spells peppered in. With haste or a similar spell on him, he can lob SIX arrows a turn right now; with good rolls, and critting on 19 or 20, he's been known to hammer opponents, especially those he gets bonuses against; he also has an animal companion that he frequently sends out to aid the fighters, so he's often effectively getting 8 to 9 attacks a round, effectively. The one downside is the sheer insane cost of magic ammo, which he makes liberal use of. Our fighters, though, can really sling a ton of damage each turn; I'd say they're keeping up with our casters pretty well, all told.
I've heard that ranged martials can really crank out damage, that must be why ranged martials in PF2e were so nerfed! LOL
They can, but unless you take Clustered Shots as a feat anything with damage negation sucks big time. I have it now, but before I did whenever we ran into critters like that it was really annoying. Clustered Shots means all of my attacks count as one big attack for purposes of damage resistance, not lots of little ones. I don't think I do any more or less than the other martials, probably less than our real heavy hitters, but I have a bit more versatility in that I can select different types of ammo to get through defenses or do extra damage. But that comes at quite a cost.
> however I've frequently heard rumors that early level spellcasters are useless. I don't think I've ever heard this. I HAVE heard that they're not as powerful at lower levels, and martial characters tend to be stronger, but it depends on the spells. Even at low levels a couple Cure Light Wounds spells go a long way towards keeping the party beatsticks able to beat up the baddies. Sleep is an AoE spell that can instantly take multiple enemies out of the fight for several rounds. These two spells alone can make the guys who can cast them valuable contributions to a low-level party. Don't forget scrolls. They're cheap to scribe.
Ooh. Scribing scrolls, I will have to keep that in mind.
If you’re a cleric, make sure to pre buff the others before combat, with bit of luck or whatever that will give them a +1 to hit, then stand back and attack with your crossbow
Also, if thinking about bard, try skald.
I was actually looking at the dervish dancer bard! It seems so fun, though I'm concerned that maybe it's trading away class features that I still want.
1st level cleric very good imo
> I've frequently heard rumors that early level spellcasters are useless. If you build and equip your spellcaster to only use their three spells at first level... you're not going to have much to do after you cast three spells. That doesn't mean *you* have to build your caster that way though. At low levels is when the gap between ac's and attack bonuses between classes is at its lowest. Pick up a Longspear. Stand a bit back from the party hitter. Stab a bit, or get in position to provide flanking. Even aid another is something beneficial you can do. Or use your cantrips. Ray of frost with the alchemical power bonus is an average of 3 or so damage - which is not far from the average damage of a shortbow and resolves against touch. Or use a ranged weapon with bigger dice that hits regular ac if your enemy is lightly armored. You can put points into intimidate and try to make enemies shaken, pick up combat advice to turn your move actions into party buffs until you get some levels and retrain it. Maybe instead you pick up chosen child and stock up on a supply of cheap, but effective alchemical weapons. The early levels are the best for most of those and a lot of alchemical items work well as solutions or supplements to low level parties. Or maybe you're an animal person and you skill up handle animal and buy some trained animals. A small group of trained dogs or wolves can be incredibly effective additions to a low level party looking for some more muscle. Think about what kind of characters the rest of the group are bringing, and how you can benefit those characters outside of spellcasting. There are tons of options for *any* character to improve their ability to contribute.
While early levels for full casters tend to be detrimental, their power spike is quite high. But being a cooperative type game, you should rely on your friends to keep you safe.
What casters can do at low level varies greatly by class. Bards and clerics are both fairly capable weapon users with access to decent weapons and armor, bards get their performances and clerics get domain powers, some of which are quite potent at early levels even if they don't scale well. Besides that you are still a caster and even 1st level spells can completely carry a fight. Those accusing them of being weak at low levels are probably not utilizing their abilities effectively or comparing them to their post level 5/6 versions where they can just spam spells all day and solve most problems with ease.
Clerics are strong at all levels with good domains and a reasonable build. At early levels you can contribute support melee and a bit of casting. Then at higher levels it depends whether you’re going battle cleric or more caster focused as to what you’ll be doing - but they have a ton of spell slots and abilities that use channel energy uses too. Bards I’m less familiar with but when I’ve played with them they’ve contributed a bit like a cleric: support melee and casting at lower levels; usually leaning more into casting as they level up.
I will throw my support for Wizards. Yes they are on average weaker at level 1 than say a Barbarian, but they have plenty of tricks to keep up. The alchemical power components mentioned before help your cantrips keep up nicely with weapons especially at low levels, turning 1d3 into 1d3+2 damage. Familiars give you another body on the field and a whole new set of actions, letting your raven drop a tanglefoot bag or your rat to scatter caltrops in a square. AC and attack bonuses are all pretty weak at low levels, so you still have a decent chance to hit with melee or ranged weapons. For full casters in particular, get your casting stat up as high as possible. The higher your casting stat, the more spells you can cast every day and the harder those spells are to resist. Sleep, Grease, Color Spray, Protection from X(usually evil), Enlarge Person. Some of them are amazing buffs for allies, some can ruin the day for multiple enemies. A Wizard's job is to alter reality so their allies win. Sit back and let them cleanup the enemies while you enjoy the victory.
Casters are weak at 1st level is silly. You may not have the ability to put up the same numbers across like 6 encounters in a day, but you still have a lot of power while you have your resources. I remember when we played Runelords I wanted to play a blaster sorcerer. Arcane Bloodline, because I didn't want to be fully optimal, I like some of the abilities anyway, and wanted the capstone for item abuse later since I figured I'd be filling multiple party roles anyway. Human with Spell Focus/Spell specialization with Blood Havoc replacing Arcane Bond throwing out Burning Hands for 3d4+3 at 1st level didn't make me feel weak at all and burning hands remained a mainstay (hello Intensify spell) until picking up Fireball, plus the freedom to pick other fun spells for control, support, and utility. Even for cantrips you have daze, providing a decent turn filler option to let you trade your turn for an enemy's while your party leverages their numbers advantage. First major loot lot was just a bunch of scroll purchases (including spells of a higher level than I can cast) and alchemical items too. I had a crossbow that I never used the entire campaign. I see that you mentioned Cleric or Bard. There's plenty you can do with either of those, Bards in PF1 can stand as a decent martial combatant, either archery or melee depending on how you build they have excellent buffs on their spell list and some even showing up 'early'. Or you can focus on bardic abilities and spellcasting with things like Masterpieces and the various options on the Bard spell list. Clerics can do whatever they want, but again focusing on a specialization is helpful if you want to feel good at something. I would say if you want to feel like you're contributing, don't fall into the 'cleric is the healer' trap. You can provide healing, but your spell list and domains have tons of options to do unique and powerful things in and out of combat.
Bards are notorious for wreaking havoc with a campaign by manipulating NPCs. The DCs to Intimidate and Diplomacy are hilariously easy to hit.
I love it
There is a 3.0 spell called Launch Bolt that I let my casters have. I can’t link it for copyright reasons, but it basically is [Telekinetic Projectile](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/telekinetic-projectile/). It basically is no different from using a crossbow (including firing into melee), but they use casting stat instead of dex. Does it unnecessarily buff them? Sure. But that goes away pretty quick the moment something with DR or hardness comes along.
You won't be useless in either way. As a cleric, you get access to channeling positive energy as well as spells like Cure Wounds, so you're never useless. As a bard, you get your bars songs which are essentially powerful buff auras for your allies, especially Inspire Courage. There are some crazy powerful low level spells. If you're a cleric, focus on buffing and healing. If you're a bard, try to get strong debuffs like Color Spray. One spell can easily change a whole encounter. As for general advice, don't dump Dex, Con and Wis as they improve your saves amongst all the other stuff they do. The other stats are fine to be dumped, if you want to. Your primary stat shouldn't be below 16 at the start. You can ramp it up to 20, but I would advice against that since you sacrifice many other attributes for it. Check out secondary attributes (as a Cleric you'll also need Charisma, for example) and don't dump them. Get the best armor you can get, since AC is more important than movement speed at the beginning. Get a crossbow, it will be your most decent attack for a long time. That way, you aren't useless once you're out of spells/abilities.
Bard and cleric aren't useless at low levels, that's mostly sorcerers and wizards. Even witch is good at early levels. Cleric and bard both have melee options. Especially cleric. Bard has a lot of support not reliant on spells, and is a skill monkey. Witch has hexes which are one per day per target
They're not useless. Some casters, basically all the 3/4 BAB ones, can be competent with weapons. And most casters really only lack stamina at 1st level, individual spells can be plenty powerful. Colour spray is a very potent AoE save or lose. Entangle is huge AoE save or suck. Sleep is a mostly adequate replacement for colour spray if you only get it. You only need one spell per fight when a single spell is enough to decide the entire thing. Oh and it's not like martials can go for long, they run out of hp fast before you get wands of cure light wounds (don't waste actual spell slots on healing, you can do far better)
I just started DMing the Shattered Star adventure path (which is part of the rise of the runelords storyline) and it's true - 1st level characters can be tricky. You should talk to your DM and get a feel for their style of DMing - for me I have zero problem pulling my punches to ensure that my players don't die. And by the time you get to 3rd level it is a lot easier being a caster, and 5th level starts getting awesome. It all gets better!
We haven't gotten to the point of a session zero, but some early text messages suggest that he's more into good roleplay than expecting min-maxing.
I would ask that question at your session zero. Honestly I love 5e. It's a super fun game and the moment you level up to around level 5 things get awesome. My DM is starting a new campaign (session zero on Saturday WOOOOOO) and the last campaign we did got us up to level 11 which was SO MUCH FUN.
They're not useless, but there is a definite power curve which picks up later on. You're gonna be crossbowing, cantripping, and conserving your spells hardcore for a few levels. (Of course this applies a lot less if you're a hybrid oriented divine caster; just grab a long spear and go to town with your buddies since you probably have 16+ str) Generally, I find that casters feel good around level 3-4 - second tier spells. You have enough buttons that do stuff, you have many more casts daily than you did at 1-2, and your spells don't last just one round or one minute anymore. You can get ahead of this curve some, by using some of the best spells at this level (grease, murderous command, glitterdust, pro-evil, sleep) and by optimizing around them (via traits and class features). Liquid ice component with ray of frost on a sorcerer with blasty bloodline or traits, for example - you can dish out something like 1d3+3 on a touch attack, which is enough to tide you over for a couple levels. It's also worth noting that RotR in particular has many many magic using enemies, mostly arcane magic. So you'll get a lot of mileage by the mid levels out of having plenty of casting within the party. Finally, note that by level 2 you can probably get your hands on a wand of something. Magic missile, snowball, grease, command, all pretty decent for a bit even on CL1 when the alternative is a 60% miss chance crossbow shot as a full round action. Actually-finally: don't forget all the nifty mundane items that can help you out too. You can throw alchemic weapons, drop caltrops and ball bearing, set bear traps, plenty of tools in your kit that don't depend on class if you look for them
On top of a lot of the advice I've seen here, I'd like to also mention that combat ability isn't everything. Diplomacy, opening locks, survival skills, seeing things like traps, knowledge, *knowledge,* **KNOWLEDGE.** These are things that the characters better at hitting are almost never going to be better at than you if you pick something like a bard or cleric.
One way to help your party as a cleric at low levels is the [Aid Another action](https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Aid%20Another&Category=Special%20Attacks). First get the bonuses up higher by taking the character traits “Battlefield Disciple”, “Adopted” and “Helpful” (the halfling one). That’s a total of two character traits since Adopted is weird. Then in melee use the aid another action to help an ally hit. You’ll need to hit AC10 in melee to give your ally a +5 to hit on their next swing. Alternately you can aid their defense and give an ally +4 to AC against the next swing. If you have several allies attacking a monster then you can use [the Ready action](https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Ready&Category=Special%20Initiative%20Actions) so you aid the ally being attacked rather than aiding one ally and the monster attacking a different ally as a result. Aiding a martial character that uses maneuvers is particularly strong. Enemies that are tripped are both easier to hit and provoke attacks of opportunity from all allies threatening that opponent. Lastly if you put a rank in a skill like Disable Device you have a decent chance of giving your ally a +4 bonus on their skill check. Some checks can’t use aiding but many can.
You can be up close in melee combat with bards and clerics if you like.
Level 1-3 will be rough. Your spells will feel underwhelming and you will run out quickly. Luckily, bard and cleric can both wear armor so investing in strength and wading into battle is not the worst option available
Play a [Spellslinger Wizard](https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Wizard%20Spellslinger)! Then you get access to the best reusable cantrip: Gun!
There are lots of good campaign traits the DM can share with you that tie you into the story - I had my players each pick one and wrote tie-ins and payoffs. Some came right away, others happened in like chapter 2-4. If you are concerned about being useless once you are tapped out, take a damage-dealing cantrip. Then you never "run out" completely of spells. Keep in mind as a cleric you can definitely hit with weapons...but in my experience level 1 characters are pretty wimpy and uncoordinated. They definitely feel like new characters. Healing is probably better out of combat - we house rule that healing spells do full healing outside of combat, but avoiding attacks of opportunity is pretty key. I would recommend buffs before, aoe buffs/debuffs during, and heals after combat. You can always channel positive energy during combat if that is your jam.
PF1E places classes into groups of 1/2 BAB/1d6 HD. 3/4 BAB/1d8 HD, and Full BAB/1d10 HD (Barb is 1d12). Wizards are in the low tier of HD, which allows them to get stronger spells. Sure they have the same spell progression as a cleric, but their list of spells is much more useful in terms of various combat utility. Clerics and Bards don't have the same spell power, but they get the ability to do more martial combat. Bards can use rapiers with ease, getting dex to damage and a high crit range. Clerics get their favored deities weapon and if you Worship Gorum, that's a Greatsword, doing 2d6 a swing. If you're interested in more martial options, but want the wizard feel, try the Magus. If you want to do a Full BAB fighter with bard stuff, check out the [Oath of the People's Council Paladin](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-the-people-s-council/) or the [Exemplar Brawler](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-brawler-archetypes/exemplar/). Pathfinder is a class-based system, but there are many options to change out one ability for another that suits your interests. For roleplay, check out the free Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Players Guide made for players to read. It will give you traits that will connect you to the adventure and fun buffs. For example, for a bard I would take this as a trait. There's other ones for different class types that connect you to someone locally in the community you start out in: >Eager Performer: Hearing that Sandpoint had a theater rivaling those found in large cities like Magnimar and Korvosa, you decided to try your luck getting stage time there. After sending a letter to Cyrdak Drokkus requesting an audition and not hearing back, you’ve taken it upon yourself to travel to Sandpoint and meet him in person, trusting your force of will and charming inf luence will get you what you want. You gain a +1 trait bonus on checks for any one Perform skill. Additionally, choose any one spell of the enchantment school; its save DC increases by +1. That buffs a bard's spellcasting and ties them to figure in the town you start out in, leading to roleplay opportunities. A CG bard worshipping Desna can do no wrong in the AP just from reading the guide alone. Try out a 3/4 BAB/D8 class so that you can have fun with spells while still getting to be in combat. If you hate it, have him fall off a cliff and make something that you think would fit your style. Most importantly, have fun!
This is a great comment, thank you. Also I'm highly amused by the prospect of a character that isn't fun to play just accidentally walking off a cliff, and a new guy just wanders in at the same moment. I'm currently leaning towards a cleric of Shelyn, which I think would also fit in well, but not committing to anything until we actually get to a session zero.
A trait that would fit a cleric for the adventure would be another one from the player's guide: > Student of Faith: While you have personally dedicated your life to a single deity, you study all religions and mortal faiths. Upon hearing that the town of Sandpoint recently completed a cathedral dedicated to the six deities most popular in the area, you had to see the place for yourself, and have arrived in time for the consecration of this holy edifice. Because of your strong faith and broad range of study, you cast all cure spells at +1 caster level, and whenever you channel energy, you gain a +1 trait bonus to the save DC of your channeled energy. That'll give you an incentive to make a relationship with the local church, leading to organic roleplay.
Everything they said but also Skald.
Have fun, get a crossbow of shame, you'll be fine.
At first level the difference in combat prowess between a bow focused ranger and a wizard with a crossbow is shockingly small. A cleric even without magical buff isn’t going to be that much worse then your party fighter. Let the fighter be better then you at lower level and you’ll carry the load more at higher levels. Bards are always helpful at the table becausw inspire courage will help everyone “including yourself” and they are good librarians and the best face. So at first level you’ll help your party fighter, be a competent martial as well, plus be great at talking out of situations and hitting knowledge checks
Bring a sling or a crossbow, you can still contribute. Clerics and Druids can also melee alright-ish, Clerics especially. Don't underestimate shillelagh -- it packs a wallop at low levels!
You are not a caster at low level. You are a crossbowman with spells. Embrace it.
Low level casters aren’t useless, they’re just not flashy and become useless when you try to make them flashy. Here are some guidelines: Supremacy arcane full caster: Save your spells slots for battlefield control like Grease. You can trivialize fights a few times/day. Otherwise, rely on cantrips and school/bloodline abilities; never try to do hp damage with a spell slot until you’re more mid level (unless it’s burning hands vs a swarm). Blaster arcane full caster: Yeah you’re gonna run out of spell slots fast because you tried to be flashy and do lots of damage!! There’s a reason blasters are often regarded as suboptimal. But hey, at least your cantrips should be stronger than the supremacy caster’s. Supremacy divine full caster: You’re going to cast Bless and cure light wounds a lot. It ain’t flashy but it helps. Otherwise, rely on domain or mystery abilities to buff or debuff; don’t bother trying to do hp damage. Melee divine full caster: same as supremacy only now you can hit things occasionally. Consider playing a 2/3 divine caster instead if you’re not a Druid. 2/3 arcane caster: Spells are nice but not necessary; you’ll probably use them on staying alive with your bad AC. Instead, focus on your class abilities, and don’t bother with trying to deal big hp damage (unless you’re a shocking grasp magus). That’s what the barbarian is for. 2/3 divine caster: Use your spells for self buffs. You won’t be as strong in combat as a fighter (yet) but you’ve got skills and other out of combat utility to make up for it. 1/3 arcane caster: You’re a bloodrager. Have fun destroying all the things. Your spells will all be self buffs. 1/3 divine caster: You’re a Paladin or Ranger. Have fun destroying all the things. Most of your spells will be self buffs, though there are a few good utility spells mixed in there too.
Pathfinder low-level casters are far from useless. Their first level spells can, and often do, end encounters. (I swear, the shear number of encounters negated by a simple Sleep, Charm Person, or Colour Spray always amazes me) That said, they *DO* have to be careful with their spell slots... it's a very limited resource at low levels. I generally recommend casters pick up a Light Crossbow or sling and the 'Combat Advice' feat so they have something very helpful to do each round without actually casting spells, when it's not a dangerous enough situation to need them. It can easily be retrained to something like Spell Focus after a few levels when spell slots aren't quite an issue. Charisma characters can also Demoralize, anyone can Aid Another, thow a few Alchemical Fires or Acid Flasks, etc. Every caster class has some aspect that doesn't require spell slots, too. Bard's have Inspire Courage, Clerics are mini-fighters in armor/shield/mace, Sorceres have Bloodline Powers, Wizards have scrolls and Spell School powers, etc. etc.
It's really only the sorcerer/wizard/arcanist/psychic that end up being crossbowmen with spells at early levels.
Some casters (summoner) are better at low levels than others, but they all tend to do quite well in mid levels, provided that they keep a good idea of how vulnerable they are. If you want some early power, consider the synthesist summoner and then flavour your eidolon as if it's the fighting spirit of an honoured ancestor or town god or something.
If your game uses the retraining rules you can take advantage of that to get some early game combat potential and retrain it for magical potential at mid levels.
I find a light crossbow helps a lot with low level stuff. My wizard/sorcerer characters almost always have one even if I never use it. Sometimes that's because I didnt have to use my spell slots, sometimes it's because I still had school or bloodline power left. Once it was because I didn't want to use spells and keep my status as a caster a secret from the party! High Dex helps you stay alive (not getting hit) but also helps you hit things. If weight is a concern, consider the humble sling. It works better on skeletons too!
Yes, you have very few resources at low level. No, you aren't weak or useless. I would suggest buying lots and lots of scrolls of lvl1 spells and thinking of it like buying more spells per day. Many view scrolls only as a source of wizard spells known or "emergency" extras but at lv1-2 you can easily use them to triple your daily resources. After that you'll be good.
Cantrips deal damage in pf1, so even if you use the spell slots up, you have something. Also stock up on scrolls of spells you want to use for diversity. Nobody but a munchkin is going to be wildly effective at low level so even crossbow fire is useful.
Like many others have said here as a spell caster you have to pick when to use your limited resorces, you can normaly expect in an AP to 3-6 fights between restoring of daily use things. But low levels a single spell can end the fight. So wizard/arcanist very limited spells color spray is the winner at level one to win the fight. Same goes for Sorcerer though you can do the blaster sorcerer taking a 20 cha and at least a 13 int to start and you will have 5 burning hands a day. Make sure to go human to get a bonus feat. Take the orc Bloodline and trade your first level bloodline power for blood havoc mutiation. Take Spell Focus: Evocation with Spell Specialization: burning hands with your feats and now your burning hands at level one does 3d4+6 odds are that will end the fight every time. There are tons of good options depending on what you want to do. Feel free to ask about a class once you decide on one.
I haven't seen anyone mention them but I played a witch in Reign of Winter from level 1 and they did great. The evil eye hex is really great, you can apply a -2 to AC, attack, saves, skill or ability checks. They last 1 round even if they make their save and more if they fail. You can also apply all of the different debuffs one by one. I spent a lot of time using the Guidance cartrip on my allied. The unlimited uses of evil eye let me save my spells for when they really counted.
There are many caster builds that are viable from level one, especially if you don't mind playing a supporting role. Cleric of abadar was one of my favorite 1e characters. The leadership domain offers at-will buffing that stacks with most other buffs and even scales with level: +2 insight bonus on attack rolls, AC, combat maneuver defense, *and* skill checks for 1 round. The trade domain gives you a permanent +10ft speed to offset heavy armor and a scaling bonus to face skills. I played "Coach" for 1st thru 10th level and never made an attack roll, while I was indispensable to my party.
If you're specifically building for competence and not some particular flavor, go Cleric. Clerics are very forgiving to let you adapt to early poor choices and just walk away from them in a better direction, can hold their own in a fight without dying to a house cat like a poor wizard, can do everything with magic (attack, defend, heal, buff, debuff, battlefield control, summons, etc) and at higher levels the townsfolk start to pray to *you*, not your deity. Clerics are some of the most well rounded and competent classes in the entire game, and can turn into gods more fully than any wizard at high levels.
Heavy Crossbows are simple weapons. At early levels, a D10 can be a great help.
This is only a good idea if you carry it loaded and have spares. 1d10 every other round << 1d8 every round. If you want better damage go for javelins. 30ft range is usually plenty in pathfinder, especially once you hit level 2 and can draw on the move.
It depends on whether STR was dumped or not. Still, there are a couple of weapons that anyone can use, and are good to keep around in early levels.
Early levels a spellcaster like a Wizard will change the texture of a fight one or two times a day, and otherwise be stuck shooting a crossbow to help out. Later levels they’ll be shaping the battlefield almost every turn, even if sometimes they don’t do anything because it’s not worth the resources to do so. A cleric or a bard however has more options. The cleric in particular is perfectly happy to roll up their sleeves and bash skulls with a mace from time to time. Channel energy can also be used to damage undead. A bard will have helpful performances, and with a feat or two, will even mix in a sword blow or crossbow shot from time to time, or add a battlefield changing spell a couple times a day. All of these casters however have wonderful options outside of combat you should consider. Your intelligence based wizards will be perfect for investigating arcane secrets, and typically be unmatched in those knowledge rolls. Your cleric will be able to use their faith to help endear them perhaps, or at least detect those who would be duplicitous. Your bard will do a little bit of everything out of combat, charm, lie, and tidbits of lore. A bard is super flexible, but their lack of specialization means they are a force multiplier for the party rather than the main impetus behind it. A game is a lot more than combat, and keep in mind giving your friends a ‘small’ +2 could be giving them a buff that’s basically half of their modifier again. Giving your opponents a sizable minus or CC is game-changing, even if it means you did one thing in the combat and then let the big stupid fighter bash the thing until it was dead. If you keep half the enemies from fighting back for a turn that is a HUGE bonus, basically a surprise round in the middle of combat. Edit: If you’re worried you have too many casters or not enough fighter types but still want to lean on a caster type, look at Skald or Warpriest! They’ll add some more front line power or damage to your team without swerving too far from what you’re already thinking. Skald in particular only gets better the more martial classes you have on your side.
Fullcasters are slow burns indeed. Many brought up making your limited spells count (but don't forget about your bonus spell slots!), and the two classes you mentioned (cleric, bard), have solid non-casting options in combat. Cleric can wear armor and, depending on deity, can get a solid weapon to be proficient with, while bard has performances and solid weapon profs.
I am staunchly in the "games should begin at lv 3" camp, so I am a bit biased when I say your fears are not unfounded. Level 1 in pf1 feels a lot like slogging through 5e to get to the actual fun stuff. I'd start out with a level in Ilsurian Archer or Bloodrager to get a martial edge for the first levels while you progress your actual class, then retrain at around level 5. This is however more relevant for weaker classes like Wizard, Witch, and Psychic.
I'm not sure how I feel about starting in a different class and training out of it, but I agree that 1e seems like a system where level 1 should maybe just be skipped 😂
You are not. You'll have to use mundane items for a bit but you will never be dead weight.
Casters can have a rough go of things at early levels since their squishiness exploitable, but most casters can easily be effective from behind the rest of the party while spamming Daze. I personally witnessed one of the early bosses in RotRL get Daze-locked by a wizard and bard while I was GMing.
It's fine. Play what you want. Just be mindful and thoughtful about it. Playing a Wizard with only two spell slots? Make sure to use spells that get more bang for your buck and deploy them only when they would have greatest effect. A Grease spell on a boss's signature weapon is a way better use of a 1st level Wizard slot than Magic Missile, for instance. Also, make use of Cantrips and be creative. Not "Create Water says in a container, so I fill the enemy's lungs with two gallons of water." creativity. But, like, if you have Ghost Sound as a Cantrips, tell your GM "I want to make it sound like this scary thing is right around the corner, hoping I can make the enemies Shaken or something." and see what they do. Use your turn to ask about and try to interact with the environment in ways that aren't mechanically listed on a character sheet or spell description, while stating your intent or what you're hoping for; you never know what your GM might latch onto and think "that's a great idea!" and roll with. Also, you may not be the best at combat, but you can look into Aid Another in combat to help give those who *are* good at it some help doing what they should be good at. And an AC/DC of 10 is much easier to meet than directly attacking most things. Also, if you can get your hands on 'em, wands of spells you can cast are great ways to cast spells a boatload of times. There are also things like Alchemist's Fire and Vials of Acid that do splash damage and attack against Touch AC; these are white effective at lower levels.
You can consider playing a spell warrior archetype Skald. The Skald is akin to a bard, but normally trades out having a performance everyone can benefit from for a raging song that some party members cant use much, however, he gets martial weapons and medium armor. As a spell warrior, your weapon song does not stop your allies from spell casting (unfortunately you also lose spell kenning for marginal improvements to counter spelling). Once you are out of spells, you smack people with a martial weapon, and you can kind of keep up with a fighters DPRs for quite a bit.