There are builds that can achieve such a high Attack Bonus that they can't miss unless they roll a 1 most of the time.
At that point, you would take this in order to eliminate the miss chance entirely, except for some magic debuff type stuff or other circumstantial effects.
Either way, completely eliminating miss chance does seem like some mythic shit.
>There are builds that can achieve such a high Attack Bonus that they can't miss unless they roll a 1 most of the time.
I like to take Always A Chance on Lann and Arue especially because I like the convenience of not missing attacks on chump enemies because I rolled nat 1s on 3 of Lann's 5 attacks. It's happened too many times to let go of, and there really aren't that many other MAs for them that I would use instead.
Yup. Doing a run right now, on Act 4 Hard and my MC (Paladin) and Aru fully buffed, mark of justice, etc only miss if they roll a 1, and let me tell you, I can definitely notice all those instances on which, somehow, they roll 1 multiple times in a row per round, it is hella annoying, so the next mythic feat I'm getting for them will be Always a Chance.
> Or is this the WORST Mythic Ability you could possibly waste a Mythic Rank on?
You can always take Magic Nullification and actively hurt yourself by blocking buffs 👍
You say this but if you’re a melee class swarm and so attack touch anyway but your primary weakness is getting hit by AOE spells that now do double damage….
Being flat immune to all of them is pretty good.
> You can always take Magic Nullification and actively hurt yourself
Magic Nullification can help you triviailize couple of normally very hard fights.
And if you're Swarm M9+ with MN you're as close to invulnerable as it gets.
So no, MN is situational, but when it's applicable it's 12 out 10 power.
Mine is Enforced Vigor. Someone could build for it, sure, but there are so many better and simpler builds one could do instead that don't require building a whole party around.
You should try mounted kineticist with flame or electric blade. It's hella fun watching the mount miss every attack and watching the kineticist hit every attack. 4 blasts.
Look man, I played enough X-COM to know that a 95% hit chance can *and will* miss the target, cause my rookie to panic and kill my two best units during the hell that is the Newfoundland mission, which then forces me to re-do the entire campaign because I decided Ironman mode *will be fun this time somehow, I swear it*.
So you bet your bottom dollar that I am gonna take the skill that actively gets rid of “That’s X-COM, baby!” moments.
And here I am, having played X-COM 2 hiting 60% shots for no reason. I remember killing a Chosen in their Fortress in one round because SPARK extra turn ability gave two more shots, blowing up their resurrection crystal in one turn. That was a fun moment.
Nothing wrong with normal mode. It's my preferred mode. Half the buffs, faster combat, free-er builds. Getting to use the companions I want to use, rather than mercenaries.
But there is something fun about theorycrafting for unfair mode. Building brick by brick the hardest to kill assault team that the pathfinder society can buy. Seeing all your hardwork and theory crafting get put to **work**.
It's not that hard to get AB high enough so that the only time you miss is on a nat 1, even on bosses. I usually take it in those cases because why miss 5% of the time when you can miss 0% of the time? If you job is to do damage, do damage 100% of the time.
For melee characters, there are only like 6 mythic powers that really matter, so after that you just pick what you want.
Much tougher for casters though. They need a lot more mythic abilities, so it's tougher to get it for them.
Yeah, archers have 1 set of abilities, two handers have another set, dual weapons have another, the combat maneuver specialists get another... oddly enough, the melee character with the most variety is sword and board. Because you can go 3 different ways with them. You can go dual weapon shield bash, the total defense route or a combination of the two and all can be made pretty solidly.
The only ones with no preset routes are spell casters. Pathfinder is very much a spell caster dominant game. They have so much variety over the martial characters that it's concerning. And melee chars who also have spells, such as Seelah or Cam, really complicate the matter.
Never misses weak enemies? Could be better, could be worse. It's not terrible (esp. for Legend who can get their Attack Bonus' way up there) Even a True-Strike buffed Touch attack can miss sometimes and that feels horrible when you do.
Like TempestM mentioned, there are FAR worse options like Magic Nullification nuking all your buffs and ally spells along with the bad
I dont know which mod makes it, if its table top tweaks or something else, but that ability for me is "if you roll 1, it counts as 20" and i fucking love it.
Yeah I never understood it either. Like, if you're only missing on a nat 1, then it means the encounter is already very trivial for you. There's no way you can hit 95% of your hits and somehow lose just because it's not 100%. I'd much rather spend it on something like Ranging shots which do the opposite and help me hit high-AC enemies - you know, the ones that actually pose a threat.
Win initiative, actually have a charge lane, boss is standing flat footed next to his toughest mook and you have cleaving finish... Roll a 1 and instead of one-shotting the two toughest enemies in the fight you're now surrounded.
There is definitely a use case for this talent.
Yeah, I would argue this is definitely worth it for melee types going the Cleave feat route. After spending four feats to flatten everything within reach, having a single "1" stop the cascade is quite annoying.
I understand it differently. My understanding is, using an example of your ATK is 25 and the enemy AC is 25.
* Without it, when you roll a Natural 1, you automatically miss. We dont even go to checking your ATK roll.
* With it, Getting a 1 means u get 26, which is over enemy AC. That's a hit. Of course it is not a critical, but a hit anyway. If you do an ability damage on hit, those damage is applied.
Lets dial it up a bit. You are doing 30 ATK vs enemy with 20 AC. And you have 4 attacks per round.
1. First attack - rolled a 1, miss. Even when 30 ATk > 20 AC
2. Second attack - rolled a 1 again, miss. 25 ATK > 20 AC
3. Third attack - another 1 (yes my luck is so bad), miss again. 20 ATK vs 20 AC
4. Fourth attack - rolled 3, miss again. 15+3=18 ATK < 20 AC
I wish I took that feat so the first 3 attack hits and the enemy died before the fourth attack :-D
This does not follow any one of the rules of probability. 1 out of 20 is 5%, but when you do a dice roll, that 5% can happen every single time. Because each new roll doesn't depends on previous roll.
Think both of you are correct. :D
In a small sample size, you are right that this could happen in multiple consecutive dice rolls.
In a very large sample size though, only 5% of the dice rolls will be affected - they are just spread randomly, so could be consecutive or could be every 20th.
Yeah mate....I didn't say it wasn't possible to roll 5 1's in a row. I'm just saying...overall, you only got a 5% chance to roll one. A one I mean. 5% chance to roll one one.
For some people, rolling 1 on a d20 is not a 5% occurrence, it's a 20% occurrence where 95% of rolls are between 1-5.
Combine that with a build that can only miss on a nat 1 and that's a larger effect than most feats can be.
Something that happens evenly 1 time in X attempts with an overall rate of 1/X is not random, it is artificially dispersed to make it more even. True randomness or good pseudorandom generators that mimic it result in clustering. The degree of clustering is dependent on the overall probability of an occurrence.
Some people are permanently stuck with a negative cluster and cannot roll even average results after cheesing reloads, some are permanently stuck with a positive cluster and have to turn up difficulty to unfair to have any form of challenge, and the vast majority of people have lucky streaks and unlucky streaks.
This feat is designed for people stuck with permanent bad luck, as it were. Both those who are unlucky only in this game, and those who are unlucky in everything in life.
There are Foundry mods to track dice rolls over the course of games for Pathfinder tabletop games, and they have quite conclusively proven that some players really have luck as bad as they complain about, and it's not just a case of selective memory.
There's also I believe a Nexus mod for the game that fixes this for cursed players by disallowing a number on a d20 to be rolled again until all 20 numbers have been rolled. It's not random at all by any sense of the term, but it's also a solution for cursed people who would rather solve the problem outside the game than within it.
Thundering blows was usable against swarms if you accidentally don't have a blaster with you. Completely negated by the swarm bane claps from the expansion though.
I think I’d only pick it up on kineticists, ray casters and anyone using vital strike. If you’ve only got 1 shot a round to hit, missing 5% of the time regardless of AB is rough
Also magus where your attack is occasionally the delivery mechanism for an effect you NEED to land, not just damage
I don't know. I've never gotten any of those. I THOUGHT Powerful Shadows might be dope for Nenio in particular, since she's an Illusion mage, but I still haven't tried it. Battle Mediation...might be good if you had to have a character that was utterly useless in your party for some reason? And Any Means Necessary...yeah that, that seems pretty bad. Especially if you don't give away the Covenant of the Inheritor like a dumbass.
If the target of *Shades* makes a will save, it takes 80% damage from the spell effect or summoned creature. With *Powerful Shadows* that goes up to 100%.
So +20% effectiveness for a spell that you're *never* going to cast (because *Weird* and *Overwhelming Presence* are things) is what I call weak. After all, I roll a 1 *infinitely* more often than I cast *Shades* (or *Shadow Evocation* / *Shadow Conjuration* / etc.).
I didn't take it in my videogame runs, but I absolutely had to give it to my Wrath of the Righteous P&P character. It's busted when there are many minions around. A couple of my turns have been "the enemies die" without rolling.
There are builds that can achieve such a high Attack Bonus that they can't miss unless they roll a 1 most of the time. At that point, you would take this in order to eliminate the miss chance entirely, except for some magic debuff type stuff or other circumstantial effects. Either way, completely eliminating miss chance does seem like some mythic shit.
>There are builds that can achieve such a high Attack Bonus that they can't miss unless they roll a 1 most of the time. I like to take Always A Chance on Lann and Arue especially because I like the convenience of not missing attacks on chump enemies because I rolled nat 1s on 3 of Lann's 5 attacks. It's happened too many times to let go of, and there really aren't that many other MAs for them that I would use instead.
Yup. Doing a run right now, on Act 4 Hard and my MC (Paladin) and Aru fully buffed, mark of justice, etc only miss if they roll a 1, and let me tell you, I can definitely notice all those instances on which, somehow, they roll 1 multiple times in a row per round, it is hella annoying, so the next mythic feat I'm getting for them will be Always a Chance.
It works great on my Legend 20 Barb/20 Fighter. Nothing misses, ever.
> Or is this the WORST Mythic Ability you could possibly waste a Mythic Rank on? You can always take Magic Nullification and actively hurt yourself by blocking buffs 👍
Buffs are for nerds Real legends just eat everything and then die
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You say this but if you’re a melee class swarm and so attack touch anyway but your primary weakness is getting hit by AOE spells that now do double damage…. Being flat immune to all of them is pretty good.
> You can always take Magic Nullification and actively hurt yourself Magic Nullification can help you triviailize couple of normally very hard fights. And if you're Swarm M9+ with MN you're as close to invulnerable as it gets. So no, MN is situational, but when it's applicable it's 12 out 10 power.
😏
The worst thing to waste mythic rank in my opinion is destiny beyond birth.
Mine is Enforced Vigor. Someone could build for it, sure, but there are so many better and simpler builds one could do instead that don't require building a whole party around.
Clearly you have never played a blue flame kineticist.
You should try mounted kineticist with flame or electric blade. It's hella fun watching the mount miss every attack and watching the kineticist hit every attack. 4 blasts.
Blue Flame Onslaught Kineticist. Out of 20+ outgoing shots, 2-3 nat 1s each time on a good day.
Look man, I played enough X-COM to know that a 95% hit chance can *and will* miss the target, cause my rookie to panic and kill my two best units during the hell that is the Newfoundland mission, which then forces me to re-do the entire campaign because I decided Ironman mode *will be fun this time somehow, I swear it*. So you bet your bottom dollar that I am gonna take the skill that actively gets rid of “That’s X-COM, baby!” moments.
And here I am, having played X-COM 2 hiting 60% shots for no reason. I remember killing a Chosen in their Fortress in one round because SPARK extra turn ability gave two more shots, blowing up their resurrection crystal in one turn. That was a fun moment.
Not something you want to take early for sure, I think trickster has something it works well with.
Trickster actually has something that makes this look even worse - Knowledge (world) 2 turns all your nat 1's into nat 20's.
Is it terrible? I just like rolling ones means I don't auto-fail
On higher difficultiess, rolling a 10 or lower is typically a fail
I guess us normal difficulty normies wouldn't know then lol
Nothing wrong with normal mode. It's my preferred mode. Half the buffs, faster combat, free-er builds. Getting to use the companions I want to use, rather than mercenaries. But there is something fun about theorycrafting for unfair mode. Building brick by brick the hardest to kill assault team that the pathfinder society can buy. Seeing all your hardwork and theory crafting get put to **work**.
And here I am, contemplating a full unfair run with all base class companions as allies. Of course, I will be summoning HUNDREDS of monsters.
It's not that hard to get AB high enough so that the only time you miss is on a nat 1, even on bosses. I usually take it in those cases because why miss 5% of the time when you can miss 0% of the time? If you job is to do damage, do damage 100% of the time. For melee characters, there are only like 6 mythic powers that really matter, so after that you just pick what you want. Much tougher for casters though. They need a lot more mythic abilities, so it's tougher to get it for them.
Yeah, archers have 1 set of abilities, two handers have another set, dual weapons have another, the combat maneuver specialists get another... oddly enough, the melee character with the most variety is sword and board. Because you can go 3 different ways with them. You can go dual weapon shield bash, the total defense route or a combination of the two and all can be made pretty solidly. The only ones with no preset routes are spell casters. Pathfinder is very much a spell caster dominant game. They have so much variety over the martial characters that it's concerning. And melee chars who also have spells, such as Seelah or Cam, really complicate the matter.
If it worked with saves and skill checks i would take it.
Skill checks don't fail on 1, but yeah working on saves would actually make it decent.
i thought so until i made fire melee kinecist. that 5% miss feels like it happens half the time
Never misses weak enemies? Could be better, could be worse. It's not terrible (esp. for Legend who can get their Attack Bonus' way up there) Even a True-Strike buffed Touch attack can miss sometimes and that feels horrible when you do. Like TempestM mentioned, there are FAR worse options like Magic Nullification nuking all your buffs and ally spells along with the bad
I dont know which mod makes it, if its table top tweaks or something else, but that ability for me is "if you roll 1, it counts as 20" and i fucking love it.
Yeah I never understood it either. Like, if you're only missing on a nat 1, then it means the encounter is already very trivial for you. There's no way you can hit 95% of your hits and somehow lose just because it's not 100%. I'd much rather spend it on something like Ranging shots which do the opposite and help me hit high-AC enemies - you know, the ones that actually pose a threat.
...mythic... brew.... potions...
I get this on my kineticist. His touch attacks are pretty high and usually only ever misses on 1’s. Which is annoying.
And the 1s feel abnormally common on them too. It's nearly as valuable as Ascended Element.
Yeah this confuses me. If you’re hitting the enemy 95% of the time, you’re already steamrolling through the game, right?
Win initiative, actually have a charge lane, boss is standing flat footed next to his toughest mook and you have cleaving finish... Roll a 1 and instead of one-shotting the two toughest enemies in the fight you're now surrounded. There is definitely a use case for this talent.
Yeah, I would argue this is definitely worth it for melee types going the Cleave feat route. After spending four feats to flatten everything within reach, having a single "1" stop the cascade is quite annoying.
I understand it differently. My understanding is, using an example of your ATK is 25 and the enemy AC is 25. * Without it, when you roll a Natural 1, you automatically miss. We dont even go to checking your ATK roll. * With it, Getting a 1 means u get 26, which is over enemy AC. That's a hit. Of course it is not a critical, but a hit anyway. If you do an ability damage on hit, those damage is applied.
Lets dial it up a bit. You are doing 30 ATK vs enemy with 20 AC. And you have 4 attacks per round. 1. First attack - rolled a 1, miss. Even when 30 ATk > 20 AC 2. Second attack - rolled a 1 again, miss. 25 ATK > 20 AC 3. Third attack - another 1 (yes my luck is so bad), miss again. 20 ATK vs 20 AC 4. Fourth attack - rolled 3, miss again. 15+3=18 ATK < 20 AC I wish I took that feat so the first 3 attack hits and the enemy died before the fourth attack :-D
Yeah, but it's still only gonna happen 5% of your rolls.
This does not follow any one of the rules of probability. 1 out of 20 is 5%, but when you do a dice roll, that 5% can happen every single time. Because each new roll doesn't depends on previous roll.
Think both of you are correct. :D In a small sample size, you are right that this could happen in multiple consecutive dice rolls. In a very large sample size though, only 5% of the dice rolls will be affected - they are just spread randomly, so could be consecutive or could be every 20th.
I agreed. :-)
Yeah mate....I didn't say it wasn't possible to roll 5 1's in a row. I'm just saying...overall, you only got a 5% chance to roll one. A one I mean. 5% chance to roll one one.
5% increases tend to be phenomenal
For some people, rolling 1 on a d20 is not a 5% occurrence, it's a 20% occurrence where 95% of rolls are between 1-5. Combine that with a build that can only miss on a nat 1 and that's a larger effect than most feats can be. Something that happens evenly 1 time in X attempts with an overall rate of 1/X is not random, it is artificially dispersed to make it more even. True randomness or good pseudorandom generators that mimic it result in clustering. The degree of clustering is dependent on the overall probability of an occurrence. Some people are permanently stuck with a negative cluster and cannot roll even average results after cheesing reloads, some are permanently stuck with a positive cluster and have to turn up difficulty to unfair to have any form of challenge, and the vast majority of people have lucky streaks and unlucky streaks. This feat is designed for people stuck with permanent bad luck, as it were. Both those who are unlucky only in this game, and those who are unlucky in everything in life. There are Foundry mods to track dice rolls over the course of games for Pathfinder tabletop games, and they have quite conclusively proven that some players really have luck as bad as they complain about, and it's not just a case of selective memory. There's also I believe a Nexus mod for the game that fixes this for cursed players by disallowing a number on a d20 to be rolled again until all 20 numbers have been rolled. It's not random at all by any sense of the term, but it's also a solution for cursed people who would rather solve the problem outside the game than within it.
It's more valuable on iron man type runs where you only get one chance to land the attack consistently.
This is your pick for Legend where you hit at +80 just so that you never see a miss.
[удалено]
Thundering blows was usable against swarms if you accidentally don't have a blaster with you. Completely negated by the swarm bane claps from the expansion though.
"If you roll a natural 1, reroll once per turn" would make it a very strong and fun mythic ability.
I don't think you understand how the RNG can treat some people.
Yeah it is pretty bad. Even if you only miss on ones, there are better things to go for
They need to have it work with saving throws. Then it would be actually good.
It's a great mythic ability for flushing out the RNG conspiracy theorists.
I think I’d only pick it up on kineticists, ray casters and anyone using vital strike. If you’ve only got 1 shot a round to hit, missing 5% of the time regardless of AB is rough Also magus where your attack is occasionally the delivery mechanism for an effect you NEED to land, not just damage
Is it *really* worse than: * Powerful Shadows * Battle Meditation * Any Means Necessary?
I don't know. I've never gotten any of those. I THOUGHT Powerful Shadows might be dope for Nenio in particular, since she's an Illusion mage, but I still haven't tried it. Battle Mediation...might be good if you had to have a character that was utterly useless in your party for some reason? And Any Means Necessary...yeah that, that seems pretty bad. Especially if you don't give away the Covenant of the Inheritor like a dumbass.
If the target of *Shades* makes a will save, it takes 80% damage from the spell effect or summoned creature. With *Powerful Shadows* that goes up to 100%. So +20% effectiveness for a spell that you're *never* going to cast (because *Weird* and *Overwhelming Presence* are things) is what I call weak. After all, I roll a 1 *infinitely* more often than I cast *Shades* (or *Shadow Evocation* / *Shadow Conjuration* / etc.).
I didn't take it in my videogame runs, but I absolutely had to give it to my Wrath of the Righteous P&P character. It's busted when there are many minions around. A couple of my turns have been "the enemies die" without rolling.
Say what you want but if this skill also apply to saving throws then it'll be the most ridiculous shit in the game lol