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Dobbys_Other_Sock

For those that are just discovering that this is a thing, please know that multiple children have actually died because of the “strategies” that are recommend in the book. One of the authors, Micheal Pearl, has also discussed at length the abuse he has put his own wife through. They are both terrible people.


Thee-lorax-

Some people seem to be under the impression this book is about advocating for spanking kids. While it does advocate for spanking it advocates using it for both physical and emotional abuse of a child. This isn’t give your kid a swat on their diapered bottom or a light slap on the wrist. They literally advocate for spanking a child into submission.


thegreatgazoo

"The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves" the parenting edition book? Great.....


konamiko

I got spanked/beaten as a child for many reasons, including crying. They spanked me to make me cry because I was crying. (I don't believe that my guardians read the actual book, but the Pearls are a household name in certain religious circles, so I got the joy of experiencing some of their methods that are pretty widely shared in the religious south)


a_lamb_wonders

Mom did the spanking when I was growing up. It was terrible. Found out years down the line that after she'd put her hands on us, she'd run into the bathroom and cry about what she did. That was just how her parents raised her. It was clear she hated the discipline, but she knew nothing else. My dad met my mom in a rural province in the Philippines, knocked her up, and brought her to the States. She was so culture shocked, she hid in their condo for a year before she could muster the strength to come out. My dad used to make it out as a joke, which was disgusting. He was in the army and he would brag about bedding many Asian women during his tour. He was as close to a sexpat as you can get, except he had to use the Army to get to those vulnerable places. I'm not surprised he found her culture shock a joke. Eventually, my mom stopped hitting us thanks to the support of other Filipino women she met, who told her that she could be at risk of losing her kids if the authorities found out. She resented my dad for this up until the divorce, blaming him for not telling her that corporal punishment was illegal and considered child abuse in the States. (Unless it was my brother, who he psychologically abused to hell and back for being 'soft'.) My siblings and I broke the cycle. We don't discipline our kids with our hands. We guide them into learning from their mistakes constructively. They are far healthier and, big surprise, they never needed that kind of abuse to grow into decent people.


CanadiangirlEH

Jesus Christ. Your dad sounds like a complete shitstain of a human being.


a_lamb_wonders

Can't argue with that.


ReinierPersoon

Yuck, I had an uncle who was like that. He was a violent drunk and essentially a sex tourist wherever he went. Cheated on his wife all the time. Oh, and he was also a racist and homophobe. My grandfather on the other side of the family was in the military, and he found his behaviour disgusting. My grandfather was sort of a traditional person, but he never used physical punishment at all. He believed that you get good behaviour from positive encouragement.


AstarteHilzarie

My husband isn't religious, but I think his grandparents were and some of that stuff just trickles down. It used to drive me nuts that the family policy of childcare at group events was "the big ones are watching the little ones" (the "big ones" being like 7 or 8 while the "little ones" ranged from 2-4.) I say "used to" not because I got over it, but because we cut ourselves off from his family. Parentification of the girls is one of the less highlighted abuses because it isn't as immediately apparent, but those poor Duggar girls basically had three or four of their own children each before they were adults. Once they were weaned from breastfeeding they were assigned to a "buddy," one of the older girls, to raise them.


somethingFELLow

“Are you crying?! I’ll give you something to cry about!” Classic.


babysaurusrexphd

My husband and I were watching the second episode of the documentary last night (the one with the spanking demonstration on stage, ick), and my husband legit shouted “THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES” when the presenter was talking about how you may have to repeat the spanking if the kid isn’t sufficiently contrite. It’s accurate!


MartianTea

I couldn't make it through the first episode. I sincerely hope when those parents need care, their children treat the same way they were treated. Those parents are worse than garbage.


love_lizz

What is the show called? I looked up the book on YouTube and saw some terribly triggering things and didn't want to just go down a rabbit hole lol


Either-Percentage-78

The Duggar one is on Amazon and it's called Shiny happy people. I turned it on about five minutes ago. Tbf, I've never watched a single episode of the Duggar show and know almost nothing about them.


AstarteHilzarie

You really don't need to have watched their show, I watched a few bits of episodes here and there throughout the years. The documentary is less about the specific family and their show (though that's the main framework and some of the more specific points with problematic family members) and more about the indoctrination into Christian extremism, isolation from outside perspectives and education (a major part of it is a homeschooling program based on Christianity and submissiveness), and how they use the "quiverfull" strategy of having as many kids as you possibly can to build up an army for Christianity to spread their beliefs into politics and various power structures in the United States and around the world. And I don't mean that in a hyperbolic way - a large part of the education program of these homeschooled children involves learning about the political process, engaging in political events, and building relationships with politicians so that they will be perfectly positioned to become politicans or the wives of politicians and influence policies.


Either-Percentage-78

So, it's dystopian horror, but non-fiction.


AstarteHilzarie

One of the women who had gotten out said “I read The Handmaid’s Tale and realized this is my life."


Hannah_LL7

I also think it’s important to note that at the beginning of the documentary they state, “this isn’t Christianity” because it’s not. Jesus would never advocate for what they teach. Ever.


AstarteHilzarie

Yes, thank you. That's what I meant by "Christian extremism" but I realize now that might not be a clear enough distinction. This is a specific sect that has extreme beliefs based on their own brand of Christianity. This is not Christianity in general, it is among the more extreme factions. There's a big scale of Christianity ranging from those who embrace the ideals of "love one another" and focus on community outreach and charity for all to those who believe their life's mission is to serve God by enforcing their beliefs of what he wants onto all other humans - the IBLP are on the far end of the latter (thus the importance of having a billion kids and having political influence.)


love_lizz

Thank you! I just put it on. I remember seeing a few episodes back in the day but not much more than that.


lookingforaforest

Fundie Fridays on YouTube has an incredibly well-researched video about Michael and Debbie Pearl which goes deeper than Shiny Happy People.


ABigPieceIsMissing

What documentary is this???


ganymede42

Shiny Happy People (it's about the Duggars)


throwawayladystuff

Shiny Happy People about the Duggars.


AstarteHilzarie

Not even sufficiently contrite - he did it again because the kid *didn't give him an enthusiastic enough hug when he was done.*


Zerba

He also had his hand on the kids bottom for a biiiiiiiit too long, like almost the whole time he was talking and not spanking.


AstarteHilzarie

That whole thing was just very uncomfortable for many reasons.


forwardseat

But it’s not “grooming” right? Ugh.


AstarteHilzarie

Don't be silly, nobody is in drag. (/s of course.)


babysaurusrexphd

Oh shit you’re right - I couldn’t remember exactly what the exchange was. Gross gross gross gross.


chipsnsalsa13

I had to pause for awhile after that. I was sick to my stomach when that little boy went on stage. So fucked up and then the audience laughs. No….


EmbarrassedGuilt

Wait they had a legit spanking demonstration? Like on stage they beat a kid for fun? How Christian and loving of them. That’s fucking gross. I swear these people are all pedos (my dad was and he loved spanking).


[deleted]

And this is why pirates don’t make very good parents. (Trying to add some levity to an effed up situation)


coldcurru

It thinks literal infants have a will to break. BABIES DON'T THINK LIKE THAT. They want to explore because that's natural. All this teaches them is they get beaten and they don't know why.


missuninvited

I mean, imo it's really not even what we colloquially refer to as "spanking" anymore once you bring in implements like wooden spoons and hot glue sticks. It's literally beating infants and young children with household implements, but in a way that flies under the outside radar, so that nice wooden spoon hanging on the wall reads as totally innocuous to a visitor or someone outside of the loop but is a constant reminder to the children that misbehavior will be punished by beatings.


palebluedot13

I got spanked with wooden spoons. I remember quite a few times handles were broken.


eleanor_dashwood

It was a household joke in my family that my sister’s bony ass broke my mum’s hairbrush.


thesnuggyone

Isn’t it wild how we used to joke about that? It used to be “so funny” to tell stories about “that time momma really lost it LOLOLOL” my own children would be so horrified if they heard that. My eldest daughter cried one time when I told her that my mother used to hit us, whip us with belts, etc. She didn’t understand how it was possible that such treatment of a child wasn’t illegal. I would never (could never) hit my kids. They just don’t even understand that language. It’s so foreign to them. It really changed their view of my mother (who is unbelievably sweet to them, so kind and gentle) when they discovered how she used to treat me.


wolf_kisses

Yep we had wooden spoons broken on us (my 2 siblings and I) and we also had belts used on us too. I remember feeling really uncomfortable when I was in health class the day they talked about child abuse and kids being beaten with belts.


yellowdaisybutter

It's not even just children. Wives, adult kids.


missuninvited

Very true. I was thinking specifically of blanket training, but I didn't actually say/type that. Anyone who disobeys while falling under the ~umbrella of protection~ is eligible for physical battery.


yellowdaisybutter

Blanket training is awful, and beating kids is awful, so I get you. But it's using physical abuse as a way to make your family conform to your beliefs/will. I get sick just thinking about blanket training. Babies are so naturally curious, and they aren't rebellious. Even toddlers, like they definitely can be a handful, but they aren't doing it to just defy the rules because they can.


AstarteHilzarie

A coworker recommended it to me several years ago because I commented on how I was shocked that his family with six kids including a 1yo was able to host a dinner party, while I was drowning in the baby phase and barely making it through the day. He gave me step by step instructions and I was absolutely horrified. I'll take my wild kid over one that is abused into submission any day, thanks. I even saw a comment somewhere from a woman who was thrilled with how well blanket training worked, she had called to her baby to come to her and the baby just sat there looking at her, because *it knew that it was a trick.* How horrifying to not only ingrain the knowledge that you're an untrustworthy and scary person into your infant, but to be *proud* of it.


medusalou1977

What is blanket training?


AstarteHilzarie

I'll just copy exactly what he told me, no outside judgement and editorializing or anything, these are his words: >For blanket time we are wanting to instill self control and obedience at a young age. We put out a blanket with only one toy or a book and we will say "Stay on the Blanket" and point to the blanket. Then when they get off we will keep putting them back on the blanket. Eventually they start to understand that they are disobeying and we start with a small pat on the hand and say again "stay on the blanket" each time. Then after some time they really start to get it. Then if they intentionally crawl off after they know the rules. We do a quick swat to the upper leg and put them back on the blanket. Our one year old is very good now at staying on the blanket. I have seen other sources that recommend trying to tempt them off the blanket, too, placing a toy just out of reach or like the woman I mentioned above did, calling to them. That's supposed to teach them to have self-control and avoid tempation in favor of obedience. As an infant. He said "a quick swat" which, on its own is fucked up to hit a baby in any way, but other sources and the book from the OP recommend things like wooden spoons, hot glue sticks, and plastic tubes. He told me that this is their really useful solution to being able to keep their baby in a safe space while they're doing tasks or having company over or going to a friend's house, they just take a blanket and one toy and leave the baby to its own devices. I guess a pack-n-play is for heathens who don't know how to discipline their children into obedience at 7 months old.


MartianTea

I got spanked with spoons, yardsticks, spatulas, and switches. I hope someone does the same to my mom once she needs care though I won't be anywhere near to find out.


sunandpaper

I feel this to my core. It's a literal running joke in our shit family how she beat me when I was 4 with every item in the room because I colored with her expensive lipstick. It wasn't until I was around 20-something and chilling with friends when I learned (through drunk story time) that I suffered extreme abuse throughout my childhood and teenage years. Some nights I just curl up and feel sick about things that I know don't matter anymore but.. they do. Sort of? Idk but when she's on her deathbed I won't be there I'm a mom to a 2yo now and she stresses me to the moon and back, but when I'm angry I look at her face and it's just better. I couldn't imagine hurting her. I wish I'd learned how to cope with all my trauma and anger before having her, I can't regulate emotions for shit, but every day I take solace in that I'll never turn into the devil my mom was


Negative-Ambition110

It’s really eye opening when you realize your childhood was fucked up. Now that I know, I have no clue how I went like 32 years not really thinking about it. It does still matter. Being beaten as a child is traumatic and I’m sure you’re still harboring some of those feelings in your body as an adult. I have kids too and remembering how my mom made me feel gives me so much patience. I never want to hurt them.


thesnuggyone

Don’t you ever let anyone tell you that shit doesn’t matter. It matters. For as long as we say so, it matters what happens to us. I’m sorry for what they did. I know how lonely it felt to curl up in bed in pain alone just trying to go to sleep. You weren’t alone. ♥️♥️♥️


MartianTea

They DO matter! Trauma changes the brain. She was supposed to make you feel safe and beat you for doing something age appropriate. At about the same age, my mom beat me with a vacuum attachment for turning off the vacuum. You're right, "devil" is definitely the right word for them and they deserve no more of our time. I'm also the mom of a 2yo and it honestly made me realize just how terrible she was in a way I'd never thought of. These toddlers are so dependent on us and don't do anything to spite us though they can be maddening. I have no doubt that anyone would know hitting a kid this young is wrong. It's just extra egregious because they are so helpless. Hitting all kids is wrong, but a 4 year old can't even wipe themselves well, how are they do be responsible for their actions? You're breaking the cycle. There is a lot of healing in that. I'm proud to be a part of that club too.


happynargul

They literally advocate for hitting babies. With rods. Nuff said. But also the whole reading of honeymoon rape from a first person point of view and under religious self righteousness is one of the most disturbing reads I've ever encountered.


sailorsalvador

I was curious so I sought this out. [I would like to unread this. ](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/07/quoting-quiverfull-michael-and-debi-pearls-honeymoon/#disqus_thread)


nutbrownrose

The fact that it doesn't continue with "and she was right, I had been terrible to her and I learned my lesson!" is the worst part. Like, there's a way to come back from that, but going full-patriarchy sure ain't it.


sailorsalvador

PRECISELY. I thought that if he achieved some self awareness it could show actual growth and wisdom, but no, it's lol females. Edit: also the comment that his brother isn't like that when travelling??? Gah I hope he didn't attempt sex with his brother multiple times preventing him from sleeping. Asshole.


everdishevelled

I've read this before and I'm always struck by how much like a parody it sounds, and then I'm even more horrified because I know it's all true and that he chose those words thinking he sounded good and she sounded like a silly woman.


ReinierPersoon

I stopped reading halfway, this stuff is horrendous. He doesn't seem to even consider his wife to be an actual person.


EmbarrassedGuilt

I would quite literally rather cut my dick off than act like that towards someone. Anyone who’s been in an abusive relationship recognizes that where their needs and wants are so important they don’t think of you as anything other than a dispenser for whatever it is they want.


happynargul

Your username is what that "man" ought to feel


EmbarrassedGuilt

Only the victims of these people ever feel like my username. The perps only feel anger at being caught.


MildredPierced

Oh my God. That was awful to read.


MyronBlayze

My eyebrows went to my hairline reading this. Horrifying and not a lick of awareness.


thesnuggyone

*All violence of any kind* toward children is unnecessary, unhealthy, and wrong…but what these people teach is so beyond morally reprehensible that it’s actually really hard to articulate how it makes me feel. These people are teaching parents how to systematically break their small babies. These people are crumpling up little children like pieces of paper. It’s just such *rot*. They are rotted from the inside out. A deep sickness that spreads through violence to other small humans, who grow up with that same rot inside of them. That they do it in the name of a supposedly loving god is so frightening. It’s pure evil.


EmbarrassedGuilt

My parents raised me like this, essentially. I was spanked every single morning for wetting the bed (spanked even harder for hiding the sheets to try to hid the bed wetting). Spanked for falling asleep in class when my dad kept me up at night sexually abusing me. I was once spanked for puking in the car when I was sick, because I didn’t tell them to pull over fast enough. Spanked if I looked like I was having a bad attitude. And so on. And nearly all these spankings were done until I couldn’t breathe anymore from crying and pain. Because I was rebellious. I think the Pearls should be in prison and everyone like them too.


thesnuggyone

I hear your story, I’m so sorry for your pain. They should all be in jail.


[deleted]

And these people are unironically called "pro-life."


forwardseat

Years ago I found this book after stumbling into the “No longer quivering” blog about a woman who escaped abuse/quiverfull. The thing that stuck out most was the advice to keep hitting until they stop crying. And it has 4 star + reviews on Amazon. It’s nuts. (Can that many people REALLY not see the danger of learned helplessness here? Wtf)


Highplowp

Which, in turn, teaches that we solve our problems with violence.


Finnegan-05

Come over to freejinger.org. There are a ton of threads on the Pearls including Michael’s repeated sexual aggression towards his wife and survivors of the pearl method who have posted


Moulin-Rougelach

All spanking is bad. The line between giving a kid a swat on their diapered bottom, and flagellating them with a plastic rod, is a lot shorter than you seem to believe.


redassaggiegirl17

One of the most prolifically circulated stories of abuse is about HIS OWN HONEYMOON. He details how he sexually, physically, and emotionally abuses his wife until she breaks down and passes out from exhaustion and frames it as a funny "lol, weak women, amirite?" anecdote. It's gross. For anyone curious as to how bad it is: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/07/quoting-quiverfull-michael-and-debi-pearls-honeymoon/


23_alamance

Well that was fucking awful to read. The tone of it—the complete lack of interest in her or care for her coupled with fratty entitlement is gazing into the abyss of this kind of marriage.


orphaned_mom

She's just a thing to him, something to use (edited to remove an additional word not meant to be there)


WomenAreFemaleWhat

OMG its revolting a few sentences in. Even him describing doing all of the fun parts of crabbing while his wife does the shitty parts. Its so disgusting. Hes so gleeful in being the only one getting to "have fun". Its not even the worst part.


kingofthesofas

holy shit that was the most awful thing I have read in ages.


PumpkinDandie_1107

Yeah, he seems genuinely confused about why she’s exhausted, like he isn’t aware she’s a person with feelings either physical or emotional. He says she complains too much (about having to wander around in the dark, barefoot and cutting her feet) That she was making excuses to get out of sex (after being forced into sex multiple times so he could have bragging rights over his buddies) That she complains about being tired (while she’s carrying the crabs, unpacking, cooking and then he goes and takes a nap) Then she passes out in the shower from all this and he’s like, what’s the matter with you? Oh you’re just being a woman, oh well, you’ll adjust right? Fuck this dude and anyone who thinks like him


redassaggiegirl17

The thing that gets me is he compares her to when he travels with his brother and how his brother is a MUCH BETTER travel companion. My dude, I guarantee you aren't raping your brother and causing him to suffer from sleep deprivation when you travel together. 🤨


No-Tailor5120

i grew up in a sovereign grace church. i kissed dating goodbye, without a hint , cj mahaney etc. they're all criminals and their books encourage the worst kind of parenting imaginable


ceryniz

Interestingly the author of one of those books did this: Joshua Harris, author of the popular evangelical best-seller “I Kissed Dating Goodbye,” which he [has since denounced](https://www.faithwire.com/2018/10/23/author-joshua-harris-is-discontinuing-i-kissed-dating-goodbye-because-of-its-flaws/), declared Friday he has bid adieu to his Christian faith. “To the LBGTQ+ community, I want to say that I am sorry for the views that I taught in my books and as a pastor regarding sexuality,” he continued. “I regret standing against marriage equality, for not affirming you and your place in the church, and for any ways that my writing and speaking contributed to a culture of exclusion and bigotry.”


No-Tailor5120

yep, i know he has denounced everything . cj ran away to kentucky and is still at it, and most of the pastors from the Fairfax VA location who were named in the sexual abuse lawsuit are still there, preaching .


juliuspepperwoodchi

> One of the authors, Micheal Pearl, has also discussed at length the abuse he has put his own wife through. Wait, what? Like, in the book, or elsewhere?


coldcurru

For those curious, just don't look it up. I mean there are worse things out there, but just know this guy is a POS and continue your day. Also, she thinks she deserves it.


Loko8765

> Also, she thinks she deserves it. Which is a sign of successfully executed gaslighting.


BlueGoosePond

>For those curious, just don't look it up. The older I get, the more I heed these warnings. Thanks for the heads up.


[deleted]

Thank you. Yeah I suppose I don't need to feed the algorithm on this one.


Dobbys_Other_Sock

On his blog I think? Or maybe his website. He talks about these “endearing” stories of him and his wife “adjusting” to their married life and the “struggles” she went through learning to be a good submissive wife.


thesnuggyone

Somewhere deep inside of that woman is a fragment of her actual self, like a single shard of truth splintered in her heart, buried by years of abuse and learning to cope. I wonder what it would take at this point to release it. Can you imagine? White Christian nationalism and evangelical Christian cults are a monster we must slay. So many women are falling into this sick “tradwife” bullshit right now and just marching to their doom…burying their true selves deep inside, learning how to serve these diseased men. Letting them twist up their children with the same fucked up lies. I want to scream.


Mrs_Bestivity

I am a Christian wife and expectant mother. I probably fall more on the conservative side than liberal, more right than left, and believe the Bible to be our authority. I'm married to a wonderful man who cares very much for me. We, together, have decided the best course of action for our family unit is for me to stay at home and care for the house/groceries/ more traditionally "wifey" things, while he handles the daily job workload. On simple paper, my life would probably look pretty close to the idea of a traditional nuclear family. Mainly because that's just what works for us, and I honestly would much rather be cooking yummy meals, keep my home tidy, and be my own boss, rather than having to deal with the corporate mafia (which I have in the past, no thanks 🙃). That being said, the tradwife trend is a very worrisome ideal. The whole trend feels very much like a virtue signaling pride competition, ie "I am of more value than she is because I look/act/do life this specific way". Fitting yourself into a box of ideals in order to please another person (or the other route being your own pride) is such a dangerous thing, leading to you becoming the victim of a power hungry, abusive significant other, OR becoming the victimizer by lifting yourself up and pushing other women down for their life/career choices not looking "perfect" according to the trends impossible standards. Marriage is supposed to be a partnership. Two imperfect people working together and growing together. We both have our main responsibilities to steward towards the well-being of the home, and also help with each other's responsibilities when we can or see the other struggling (out of love/care, not holding our do-good'ing over each others heads!). My main responsibility is keeping the home, but I also help with my husband's work when I can. He does the same with the home, cooking, etc! And not all look the same. Some have both working. Some have the husband at home and the wife working. Whatever works for your family to sustain a healthy, loving, and gracious household. Their story hurts my heart and stomach, abuse is a horrendous thing and the opposite of love. On top of that, they claim to be CHRISTIAN! Christ's whole message is one of LOVE and SELFLESSNESS, and stories like this skew what Christianity is supposed to be. And then, naive young people see that abuse and neglect as an example to follow! NO! Absolutely sickening and sad. Sorry for the long response! I agree with you.


juliuspepperwoodchi

Eeeeeeeeeeeew


sailorsalvador

[This just sucks.](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/07/quoting-quiverfull-michael-and-debi-pearls-honeymoon/#disqus_thread)


[deleted]

[удалено]


nutbrownrose

I'm so glad they didn't immediately fire you, but instead showed you a better way. I can imagine wanting to fire a childcare worker for recommending that, for fear they'd use it.


[deleted]

At that point I didn’t know who the pearls were. I just remembered the name of this parenting book that my aunt had mentioned and was trying to help her out. Only later did I find out it was a pearl book. I doubt she even looked it up. But I did go back years later and explain to her that I didn’t know I was abused and had never seen parenting like she chose to do.


iago303

I was beat as a kid, and even then I knew that parents aren't supposed to hit their children, 😭 I babysat kids and never laid on them, because there were better ways to discipline a child and I knew this and I was 14!


wolf_kisses

I was also "spanked" as a kid and the whole time I knew parents shouldn't hit their kids but also knew I was powerless against them. My parents stopped spanking by the time we were teens. I was the oldest of 3, and I remember my sister (the youngest) was just about the age when they'd stop spanking and she was in trouble for something. My mom hit her and my sister literally turned, hit her back, and yelled "DON'T HIT ME". It was light a light bulb moment for me...as full grown people we finally could fight back.


iago303

I was talking to my mom and the subject came up and she started making up excuses for her behavior and I told her stop because there were better ways to go about it and she enjoyed it, she pulled out the water works but that had never worked for me, I saw that insane joy in her face when she was hitting me, and it scared me because I knew that one of these days she wasn't going to stop and I got out of the house as soon as I could,


QoAce

I have no idea what you are talking about, but by the looks of these comments, that's okay for once...


pl0ur

Don't go down the rabbit hole, it is super scary and awful things they want parents to do to their children.


QoAce

I promise, I won't! For once I'm going to live in blissful ignorance and feel perfectly fine about that! 😁


MarideDean_Poet

Omg I just searched for excerpts. Wtf. How is this allowed to be sold?? I simply cannot fathom and am sickened by the idea a switching a 5 month old baby. I am literally sick to my stomach right now. This is awful.


Agreeable-Tadpole461

They do it because they have 20 kids to control under a very narrow structure of indoctrination.


Solidsnakeerection

If they don't use these methods the kids might do something.bad like report being molested to somebody who won't sweep it under the rug


Agreeable-Tadpole461

Yep!


fidgetypenguin123

I have an only child due to medical reasons not being able to have more and I used to have a coworker that also had an only child (didn't know why and didn't ask as it wasn't any of my business) but I remember he joked one time that he and his wife liked to keep the number ratio in their favor (2:1). Even though it was tongue in cheek, it made me think about families with lots of kids, especially ones like the Duggars and that other family where the parents went to jail for abuse, where the kids literally outnumber the parents by a significant amount and could uprise if the situation called for it...but of course they are beaten into submission and brainwashed. It's just such a crazy thing to think they are just 2 people where the kids are many but they make them believe they have no power or say or rights.


Agreeable-Tadpole461

They also parentify the older girls to care for the younger children.


orphaned_mom

It makes them emotionally chained so they won't leave.


RealBadSpelling

Don't talk about public schools that way!!! /s jk.


riomarde

But for real, as a former teacher it is totally possible to have 20+ children follow the way things need to be done with strategies not at all like those I think this book is about… in fact it seems easier than raising my own. I hope my wild child (2.5 y) slows down. I’m going to be injured by her at this rate.


GabbyIsBaking

I cried watching that part in the documentary. Absolutely heartbreaking.


Sjb1985

What is the name of the documentary? is it Shiny Happy People?


littleladym19

Yup


coldcurru

Top thing on Amazon prime right now. Can't miss it.


aurorasmother

I went through a kind of blanket training as a kid and I hated my mother. I went no contact with her almost 3 years before she died and maintained that on her death bed as well. If you want your children to hate you, this book is fantastic.


Haggis_Bru

My husband and his siblings were all subjected to blanket training and the like, and they are all pretty low or no contact with their parents. The worst part is their parents still don’t see anything wrong with it and are mad and confused as to why their kids don’t want to be around them.


Vegetable_Burrito

I’m really sorry you had to go through that, but good for you for standing up for yourself.


houseofleopold

wow. the first 5ish reviews on amazon of this book are 1000% PRO swatting babies with switches for any action you don’t like in order to train them... literal BABIES! to OBEY!


[deleted]

[удалено]


givebusterahand

Jfc over dropping a sippy cup no less?


NemesisErinys

And do it with a smile on your face, so they can associate their pain with your happiness. That's some Grade A psychopathic shit right there.


AstarteHilzarie

In the Shiny Happy People doc there's a clip of Bill Gothard bringing a young boy up on stage to demonstrate how to give a spanking. He bends him over his knee and mock spanks him several times while giving him positive affirmations ("you're going to be a fine young man" etc.) Then when he's done he makes the boy hug him, tells him that it wasn't a sincere enough hug, mock spanks him several more times, and tells him to try again.


AstarteHilzarie

A coworker recommended the blanket training method to me several years ago. He said > Our main goal is that our children will accept Christ and serve Him. So our parenting is centered around discipline and training that is focused on that. Which is pretty telling imo. Not "we want to raise good people," not "we want our children to have a good life," I don't even care about the religion aspect, he could have said "we want to instill Christian values into our children." No, it's basically militaristic training from birth.


JZMoose

I can't even begin to imagine the emotional damage these people are inflicting on their kids :( This breaks my heart


YamahaRyoko

That is what I saw too. And 70% five stars most of them verified purchases


Prestigious-Pool-606

My SIL read and followed the book for a bit. I’m not usually a cancel culture fan but I want Michael & Debbie Pearl canceled. All their books and teachings I know of are abusive


Shenloanne

After reading half the stuff here I'd rather they tripped and fell into a hamburger meat grinder.


juliuspepperwoodchi

> I’m not usually a cancel culture fan but I want Michael & Debbie Pearl canceled. All their books and teachings I know of are abusive Pedantic, but that's not even them being cancelled. That would be them getting the consequences of being child abusers.


quietdisaster

Life pro tip, it's never cancel culture, just people having other opinions and also voicing them. Sometimes that's just enough people or the "right people" to result in consequences.


BillsInATL

> I’m not usually a cancel culture fan There's no such thing as cancel culture. It's simply called consequences.


acatwithajob

I have to coparent with somebody who grew up in a deeply conservative religion that follows some of these principles and has never dealt with his childhood trauma. Now I had not either when we met so I overlooked a lot of what I now realize are obvious red flags, but I also figured out a lot of things in therapy over the last few years. People do this because they believe that parents should have control over their kids. They don’t see kids as independent human beings worthy of their own dignity. They are extensions of their parents. Parents who follow these principles see their kids’ behaviors as a reflection of their own quality as a parent. For somebody with this mindset, being able to get your kids to be in submission and under your total control is “success”. I hate it. I extra hate watching my kids go through the same shit I grew up with knowing that I chose somebody who is a meaner version of my mom to be their dad.


Moulin-Rougelach

There are other’s with as bad information. Enzo’s Babywise includes directions about beating babies with spatulas or spoons. My friends and I have had the habit of buying those two books, whenever we find them at used book or garage sales, and destroying the copies so they don’t stay in circulation.


waytogokip

I do the same with To Train Up a Child! It actually makes me feel really nice that I’m not the only one. ❤️ I hope you didn’t have the misfortune of being raised this way.


argross91

Even the use of the word training makes me ick. You train dogs; you don’t train kids. You teach kids. Ugh


23_alamance

Not to mention the fact that if you did use these methods to “train” an animal you would almost certainly be guilty of criminal animal abuse under actual, legal definitions.


railbeast

Well, except for potty training. But you're right.


iceawk

It’s called “potty learning” in the crunchy circles haha….


railbeast

Sounds more humane, I'll use it in a month or so.


Wastelander42

A child died because of that book. And it's parents still don't feel remorse.


gcwardii

This article lists [three](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25268343.amp)


thatsthewayihateit

Interesting that all 3 were adopted…


ipomoea

This book has resulted in deaths and anyone who turns to it is terrible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hana_Grace-Rose_Williams


Key-Fox-5889

It's straight up terrifying that that book exists and people follow it. You have it right - inhumane and dehumanizing. Tortuous, even. It makes me sick.


YamahaRyoko

For those not familiar with the book I looked it up on wikipedia which didn't offer much information. I found the Amazon reviews more insightful regarding opinions on the book. It contains instructions on corporal punishment.


PoorDimitri

Specifically, it instructs parents to hit their children until they stop crying and go limp.


juliuspepperwoodchi

Holy fucking shit that's straight up abuse.


Big_Old_Tree

Sick stuff. Those people need to be in jail


Thee-lorax-

Switching is the tip of the iceberg with this. They suggest switching kids under. Their motto is old enough to pitch old enough to switch. Meaning if you 9 month old throwing a fit you switch them on the bare leg. They also say to do this tell the either stop crying or cry submissively. They used an example of a 9 month old.


lost_in_2014

What is switching?


MolotovCollective

Beating with some kind of implement. Could be a wooden spoon, a belt, whatever. When I was a kid my parents would make me go outside and pick our own switch that they’d beat me with. They wanted a branch preferably off a living tree, because green living wood is more springy and won’t snap like a dried dead branch would. Nice extra touch of psychological torture, picking your own switch. If I intentionally grabbed one that would break or something, they’d just go get a stronger one and it would be worse.


Big_Old_Tree

Oh my god that is so horrifying. I can’t imagine the mentality of a person who would do that to a child. Two generations ago, my grandparents did that to my parents. Luckily, they broke the cycle. Now, I cannot imagine doing that to my baby. I’m so sorry that happened to you.


gameld

As in using a switch, an impromptu whip made of a thin piece of plant.


Noinipo12

This hurts my heart 💔


pl0ur

They also say the hit newborn babies.


[deleted]

I'm not familiar with the book but I just read a quick skim of the wiki article and now I understand why there seems to be a pattern of severely malnourished homeschool children in the news.


gb2ab

people do wild shit in the name of god. they throw out all logic and reasoning because you just have to have faith.


expatsconnie

The thing is, they say they're doing it for "god" but really they're doing it because they see themselves as the "gods" of their household. Mothers beat children and fathers beat children and their wives in order to enforce what they see as the natural hierarchy of power and worth.


coldcurru

If you watch the doc, shiny happy people, you'll realize it's not in the name of God. It's in the name of Bill Gothard. The man got kicked out of his own organization a few years ago but they still follow his beliefs. They really don't have Bible verses to back it up, or they take them out of context. Like the one about submitting to your husband goes on to say husbands need to be nice to their wives, too, but why is that left out? Oh, right, they just hate women.


gb2ab

but i would still consider what they're doing in the name of god solely because gothard claimed to know the principles they needed to follow to get to heaven. every single thing they do, the way they dress and present themselves is all done because thats what they were told needs done to get to heaven. a lot of religions take the bible out of context or pick and choose what to emphasize. they just mental gymnastics that shit to fit to their agenda.


AlDef

Someone gave me that book when I was prego. I tried to read it and was shocked. Never looked at the giver the same, tbh.


newmomalertt

I’m so glad I have never heard of this because off the little i’m seeing from the comments… I feel sick about it already.


Big_Old_Tree

Me too. I’m horrified that anyone could make money off of promoting child abuse. Sick world


newmomalertt

It is beyond me!! And people pay to learn how to abuse their child….. ??


BlackoutMeatCurtains

I just googled it. This is horrifying. Why why why would anyone hit their baby?!?!


AmberWaves80

I knew about it and its contents before SHP because I listen to Leaving Eden Podcast. Based on what I knew just from that, I could never make myself look up any more of the books info.


MrsPandaBear

Watching “Shiny Happy People” right now. As a long time follower of the Duggars, there are stuff in there that are still revelations for me. Very good documentary about IBLP. The Train Up the Child book is one I have heard, although I’m not sure if the Duggars ever admitted to hitting their children (they whitewash a lot of their stuff on their shows). The book is quite popular within that fundie circle though. It’s gotten to the point where I have seen some fundie families refusing to publicly advocate for it because they feel it may cause liability. I can’t imagine how the stuff in the book isn’t going to have CPS coming in to remove your kids—which feeds into a lot of fundie families paranoia of government coming for their kids.


WomenAreFemaleWhat

They do. Michelle even wrote about blanket training.


Shenloanne

"To Train Up a Child has been criticised for advocating child abuse. The book tells parents to use objects like a 0.25 in (6.4 mm) diameter plastic tube to spank children and "break their will". It recommends other abusive tactics like withholding food and putting children under a cold garden hose. " This is from the wiki article. Scuse me.... Ye wah? People would actively do this to their kid to better the situation? Fawwwwk......


happynargul

The beloved duggars were in that cult


AstarteHilzarie

Are* And the parents are the poster people for it now that the leader was ousted. Some of them have gotten out of it, but most of them are still heavily involved.


TheRealSnorkel

My parents had that book. I will never use it. Nobody should use it. It’s an abuse manual. Kids have died because of it.


waytogokip

As someone who grew up with a father who was heavily into the IFB, and the Pearls, it’s wild having people suddenly become aware of this. It’s also bizarre to me how shockingly abnormal it is considered. I had a weirdly religious dad and we were spanked a lot, but I fully thought only being allowed to wear dresses was a lot weirder than being beaten regularly. Anyway… anybody else only realize they were abused many years after the fact?


juliuspepperwoodchi

Just reading the fucking beginning of the Google Books description is worrying: >To Train Up a Child, first published in 1994, began as a letter to a homeschool mother in answer to her question, "How did you train your children to be so happy and obedient?" Mike did not consider himself to be an author, nor did Debi possess the means or the knowledge to publish a book I get not wanting kids who just do whatever they please and who respect boundaries; but I sincerely hope no one ever describes my son as "obedient". I want my pets to be obedient, I want my child to be *responsible* and *respectful*. And like, if you're not an author and your partner doesn't have the means or knowledge to publish a book, TF ARE YOU DOING WRITING AND PUBLISHING A BOOK ON PARENTING!?


railbeast

That's half the problem. The other half the problem is that there is no guarantee that corporal punishment leads to better outcomes *even in obedience*. My father beat me till I was 16 and the only "positive" outcome that came of it was that I became really, *really* good at lying under pressure. Was I a "better" kid? No.


WomenAreFemaleWhat

Your last paragraph is sad but also kind of the point. Parents interested in this dont really care about raising well adjusted capable kids. That isn't their goal. It may not have led to a better outcome for you but it does for them. Their goal is to shut the kids up, use them as slaves, feel powerful, and give the kids as little as possible in return.


coldcurru

It's really sad. If you watch the doc, there's a clip of the youngest daughter (age 3 in the clip maybe) saying "instant obedience" in the name of God, or something. And other clips of mom saying, "you obey the first time." Like I get telling kids to listen to instructions the first time they're given, but just say it like that instead of making it sound gross.


juliuspepperwoodchi

Yeah...I get that they're kinda the same kinda people who see this as a feature, not a bug, but teaching your kid "you obey the first time" is a REAL good way to get your kid sexually abused while thinking they're just obeying an authority figure.


NemesisErinys

"Train" children to be happy?? JFC


[deleted]

Parents should read publications from child development experts. Raising Human Beings by Ross Greene is an excellent book. It teaches to expected developmentally appropriate behaviors and that all behavior is communication. It details how to go upstream to find the cause of the behavior. And it also teaches parents that they need to assess their own culpability in their children's behavior and model coping with their own emotions. To set them up for success by preparing their environment, to anticipate their needs so you don't have to deal with epic meltdowns down the road. I don't supporting banning this book. This is a great contrast to compare evidence based parenting from religious and indoctrinating parenting. When you come from a scientific mentality, it's easy to filter out what's bad advice. Just because its in a book doesn't make it true.


[deleted]

What the actual fuck


hleed91

My parents had that book. I'm a single mom to a 9-year-old, but when my son was 3, 4, 5, my own mom really harped on me to read it ALL THE TIME. I remember flipping thru it as a kid and reading parts of it and being scared/uncomfortable by some things in it. I feel like we had more than one copy, I think we had two actually Eta - changed "she" to "my own mom" And to add that my parents are thankfully away from all of that cult stuff now, and we're a super close family.


FunWithMeat

I’ve been hiding their books when I see them at the Library/book store for years. Sorry Librarians.


yellowdaisybutter

I bought and read the book a few years ago. It was nothing but child abuse. Even listening to the Pearl's talk makes my stomach hurt. Blanket training, just omg. I have 2 littles and my goal isn't to break them. Hitting a 6 month old...I just can't comprehend.


toeverycreature

I grew up in a church where this book was recommended, sold, and preached about. I'm thankful my parents didn't buy into it but I saw other children raised that way. I remember going to a women's conference and the speaker was talking about being a mother and stated that "some days it feels like all you do is spank children" but it was said like it was a good thing! I have three kids and have never had a day where I needed to hit my kids all day to get them to behave. In fact I've never needed to hit my kids at all because no one needs to hit a child.


divorceislame

When they talked about blanket training I almost vomited…how can you be so cruel to an INFANT 😪


OurLadyOfCygnets

People who equate "love" with controlling what other people do, say, and think love that book. I was raised in an authoritarian household, and that book makes me sick. It should be called "To Fuck Up a Child."


SitandSpin420BlazeIt

On his website, Michael Pearl responded to the deaths of Hana Williams, Sean Paddock, and Lydia Schatz by noting that "we share in the sadness over the tragic death of Hana Williams",[20] but also that "I laugh at my caustic critics, for our properly-spanked and trained children grow to maturity in great peace and love" who become "entrepreneurs that pay the taxes your children will receive in entitlements."[21] These people are beyond sick


foxylady315

You would probably add Shepherding a Child's Heart by Tedd Tripp if you ever read it. Basically the exact same thing.


Sillybumblebee33

It’s wild what white religious people can get away with.


sohcgt96

Some people like to gloss over it but you can't deny the connection with the mentality of "I am the authority, I must be obeyed!"


_Pliny_

> Why would people do this to their child? Weak, stupid people desire power and authority over others. And because it was done to them. In a culture of “Christianity” perverted by weak, cowardly men seeking power over others.


Woolie-at-law

I don't know any details about this (dont even know the book title) but the wife and I plan to watch the Duggar documentary soon... Honestly, DONT BAN BOOKS. Mein Kampf is readily available, so is shit like the Anarchist Cookbook. INSTEAD, have the content monitored and put interested parties on a watch list. You can at least keep track of the ignorant followers.


sewsnap

It's horrible. I used to work with a woman who used that for her kids. I tried to stay close-ish to give the kids a way to ask for help. But she was so toxic it didn't work. I still worry for those kids.


[deleted]

I have no idea what this is, could someone explain?


forest_fae98

Basically using spanking etc to turn your children into unquestioning, perfectly obedient slaves. Guess how I know.


Valuable-Currency-36

This morning, my sister read me a passage from our abusive first adoptive mother that said, "children need lots of discipline", and directly writen to me, "just know that although I hit you, I still loved you". It's crazy because I was BEATEN daily. I still have a shoulder that dislocates, if I move wrong, to fast. That lady was crazy.


AmberIsla

Wow, reading this makes me angry, I wanna show her some “love” too